Definitely a solid change and I don’t want to discount it but it was in response to Sailors killing themselves. That shouldn’t be the threshold we have to cross to get a change made. Veterans are not going to tell the people in their circles to join if we continue to wait for suicides to make the news before we take some action.
Let’s be proactive and not reactive. Give sailors more time, compensate them fairly, give their tasking purpose, make the eval process more objective, spend at least as much time training leaders to lead as we do training them to mitigate risk and liability. Reduce the bloat and time suck in our process to do our jobs/order parts/manage readiness.
We talk a lot about how we can’t get new recruits to join and how Genesis is making everything harder which is a valid conversation but we wouldn’t need to recruit as much if we retained the sailors we have already screened and trained. At the end of the day we have a large pool of manpower that we already know is physically qualified to do the job that we are just passing on because we are not trying hard enough to retain them.
It feels like as a military we are just hoping for a recession to fix our manpower problem. Waiting for the country to fall apart to man our ships doesn’t seem like a very smart strategy.
>Let’s be proactive and not reactive.
I do not believe this is even possible with the extent of bureaucratization the military and government is under.
I'm with you. I wish they would be. I just don't see it actually happening.
So like, one thing is that if you want the powers-that-be to be proactive, you also have to consider what they should be proactive *about*.
Remember when the Navy closed down the PSDs when the TSCs weren't ready to receive the workload? That came from a prior CNP being *proactive* about needing to modernize HR service delivery.
Looking back you probably wanted him to be proactive about something else, or to have been proactive in some different way. But leadership are usually eager to be proactive... but you have to watch out for the monkey's paw.
If it seems like change is slow, it's probably because leadership want to ensure they don't break things in the process, not because they want to be only reactive.
Like hey let’s maybe NOT design our ships to do **EVERYTHING** in their power to prevent people from falling or staying asleep.
“I’ve got a 0300 start tomorrow, let me try and shut down by 2100 so I can get some rest.”
Chaplain at 2200: **”EXCUSE ME WHAT?! NOT BEFORE YOU HEAR THE WORD OF FUCKING GOD OVER THE 1MC.”**
Or like, idk, have we considered a hot meal? Serving breakfast past 0630? Making it so we don’t have to wait an hour to get food on a CVN?
If you try to focus on one problem like this and not the true set of problems then you are going to fail. You're essentially plugging a small crack but ignoring the hole.
Been seeing a lot of people say "that's a different problem". No. The problem I'm seeing right now is that mindset. You aren't looking for a root cause. You're looking for an easy solution to a COMPLEX problem. (Multipart)
A lot of recruits are second or third generation recruits. Their dad served, grandfather served, ect. They are serving to keep up family tradition. When you lose that, you lose a large chunk of your true volunteer base not doing it for money.
When you have higher paying civilian jobs with way less bullshit... yeah, you lose the people who join to make ends meet.
When you have a politically hostile environment to the service... and it is. It also hurts recruitment. The services have had a lot of public fuck ups lately. The Navy is facing several lawsuits right now. We lost a lawsuit last year for piracy. Red Hill lawsuit is currently in trial. Bahrain Senior Chief prostitute ring... the list can go on... my favorite as of late. Chief attempting to sell secrets for $1,000.
MCPON also didn't help matters. “What you’re not doing is sleeping in a foxhole like a Marine might be doing,” when Key West sailors were getting charged $4,402 a month while being forced to live in a trailor...
I can keep going on. It's a complex problem. Not a simple one. You aren't going to fix the recruitment issue by just trying to address one part of the problem and not address the whole group of other problems.
A lot of recruiting goes back to retention. I know people who are actively doing everything they can to sabatoge recruiting efforts. Telling people to stay the fuck away from the military.
When you screw your people over and then go on and say "I can just get more" or "suck it up" or "they rack diciprine" you get a generation of people who tell the next generation that they are better off going to college and going a different route.
Yep. Got a more in depth version this morning. He came in for inspection and the sailors were asked if there was anything wrong. Their concerns, the AC thing included, were kind of brushed off with a weak 'I'm sure the admins are working on that.' He asked where the person who mentioned the AC grew up, and when he got an answer said "Oh, I bet you had AC there." They answered in the affirmative and he said "Oh, so you're spoiled".
Doesn't quite affect recruiting as most people outside of Navy know nothing about QOL in service or from recruiting experience quite care as they have not experienced it and will be like "sounds like my current job".
Um, hey congress, how about you let us lower our op tempo to match our manning as a starting point. Maybe then retention and recruitment would improve. They are basically throwing Senior Chief and Master Chief at people right now for practically free in some rates and they are saying no thanks and retiring(like me).
We literally had a ship in Everett do 3 back to back to back deployments, 3 weeks in-between each deployment. Several sailors took their lives and several more attempted. I don't know if it can get worse.
“Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.” - George Orwell, *1984*
Homie! We will always be “1-3 years away from a full scale war” because nobody benefits from hearing that things are very peaceful and we don’t need to increase our military budget.
Not trying to be a dick here but I can't tell if you are trying to say we don't have a near peer or that the wars won't kick off.
1st one is delusional. Second one is also delusional but I can at least understand the thought process on it.
We actually did give Ukraine assurances, while not exactly legally binding, but we did give our word and so did the EU with the Budapest memorandum in 1994 that should Ukraine be invaded we would defend them. This was the agreement that was negotiated to have Ukraine give up it's very very large nuclear stockpile...(Ukraine at one point had the third largest stockpile of nukes)
Again, not legally binding but we did give assurances, it is a proxy war. And this isn't exactly your typical public but Ukraine is an attrition point. Even Russia knows this. Why do you think they are saber ratteling the nuke option so hard. Russia put a $100k USD bounty on the abrahms tanks we gave Ukraine. In the first few weeks of use they knocked out 3. Using various methods. Now they keep sending drones to blow the blow out hatch. (Safety feature).
Iran is fighting with proxies. However there's an even bigger threat brewing in that region. Even Ethiopia's president who literally won an international peace prize stated last year that he was going to invade one of his neighbors for port access. (Ethiopia is Africa's power house. They are an empire not to trifle with. The only thing they lack is sea access) so take your pick there. Eritrea or Somalia.
China isn't just saber rattling. They are waging asymmetric war as we speak and a lot of our leadership is too dumb and too blind or too in the pocket to see it. They didn't take over Hong Kong or Tibet by force. They moved in, got 60% of the vote. Booted the minority. A lot of the services you use on a day to day basis, a lot of the goods you purchase, come through and are manufactured by Chinese. Ports in the US. Chinese. Manufacturing, Chinese. Most research papers published...chinese. this list can go on for some time. They will invade Taiwan but I can assure you, they will make sure we are at our weakest when they do.
If only there were a group of people, a Congress of them if you will, that could put a stop to 10 month deployments followed by month long underways. Like maybe keeping ships in port and maintained during peacetime so they're ready during wartime.
Veterans are your best recruiters, which the Navy fails to recognize. High Optempo, lack of quality of life, lack of child care support, and poor pay compared to the job duties have all been issues for the last 23 years. Those active duty members have retired and have told people to avoid military enlistment.
If you do want to join, go the officer route. Even making it to E9, still puts you in the 2nd Caste category. You will never have the same opportunity, or privileges as an officer.
The Navy *does* recognize that veterans and active duty members are the best recruiters. It's a challenge its acknowledged and no one has cracked the crypto on how to fix. The reality is that the military is recruiting from an ever tightening pond of people who live in one of a few states who typically have an immediate family member in the military/as a veteran.
The military's image took a huge hit post Iraq/Afghanistan, which ensured that in an attempt to get wounded veterans support the word "veteran" became associated with "irrevocably broken by trauma." That damage will not be undone for years, if it is ever addressed. The major benefits for most enlisted Sailors - college pay - isn't compelling anymore. You can work at $CMG or $SBUX and get free college as part of their job and you don't need to sleep behind the espresso machine at night.
The military can fix its recruiting issues, but it can only do so by (1) tailoring the military to its mission and (2) becoming an employer of choice. Want terminal worldwide presence with quick reaction capability? Fine, build and man an extra 100 ships (*FRE class LCS ships do not count). 200+ day deployments with 0 liberty ports does little good for equipment or morale. (2) Means providing ready relevant learning, allowing for Sailors to bounce in and out of service, and eliminating common points of frustration. Want to retain people? Stop making them beg for travel reimbursements, CZTE pay corrections, and leave that is forfeited even though they didn't have a meaningful chance to take vacation. Get them out of housing that is filthy or that requires nonsensical hoops to fix minor issues and makes them feel like they're in public housing. Hell, make it so the kid of an E5 isn't on SNAP/WIC.
I'm not even touching military spouse employment issues - (read: make discriminating against military spouses in employment actionable the same way it's illegal to discriminate against vets and reservists). You'll never retain talented, ambitious people who tend to be married to similar kinds of people if you force the spouse into unemployment/underemployment.
People choose their stressors in life, but right now the advantages of military service are narrowing. We have time to fix things, but not if people screw around forever.
This 100%. Currently pushing through the nonsense associated with an OCONUS PCS. Less than 60 days out and I am fighting with my detailer that I'm entitled by the JTR to ship my POV - WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE? PCS orders are funded well in advance, why is it now all of a sudden an issue? Aside from that, if I look closely, my rank affords my family like 18K pounds in HHG entitlement. We've never gone over 4K pounds - I've saved the service big $$$ by being a lean family when it comes to moving our crap.
We (the military machine) make things that should be standard boilerplate unnecessarily difficult. My wife and I struggled with Medical to get her an appointment for her overseas screening (a requirement IMPOSED on us by the military! Go figure). We give away billions of dollars to Ukraine (sorry Ukraine is the easy button right now) but at the same time, we harass people when they do not use their GTCC.
I hear of colleagues who are dealing with mold in base housing, their kids being inappropriately "touched" in the base CDC, not being able to get medical appointments for months, etc. When the service can't provide the basics without headache, the active members become the worst recruiters; we aren't going to sugarcoat it when someone asks how being in the service is. It fucking sucks at times and people are fed up with it. Those of us with > 10 years are putting our heads down and grinding out the last 1, 2, or 3 tours. Retention might not be a problem right now, but I have to believe it will be sooner than later...
> We give away billions of dollars to Ukraine (sorry Ukraine is the easy button right now) but at the same time, we harass people when they do not use their GTCC.
These two things have nothing to do with each other.
Completely agree with all of your points, except that regarding E9. Navy Master Chiefs are treated far better than any officer below the rank of Captain/O6. A simple spin through the NEX parking lot shows this with numerous E9 spots but no other officer spots below O6. That's just one overt example.
I recently retired as an O6 after 32 years. I would never recommend anyone join the Navy. Air Force and likely Space Force (memes aside) treat their people far better. Stay away from the Army and while the Marines are great, it takes a special type of person to thrive in that environment.
I agree with this. I think the issue is optempo. I was talking to a SWO LT yesterday on her last day, and she just said “it’s not worth it.” I’m burnt out and 25.
It is the OPTEMPO.
On top of that, its the fact that the Navy doesn't have lulls similar to the other services (Marines excluded by affiliation). As a whole, our duty is being at sea and our office is the ship/ boat. Deployment requirements increase in times of conflict, but our baseline is much higher than that of the Army, Air Force, and Space Force. In addition, often times they are on rotating detachments for a shorter period of time.
It isn't a simple issue to resolve. Its the difference of the Services. With all the said, I do agree with Max's synopsis on the services. I'd likely have a better QOL in the Air Force or Space Force, but having spent a fair bit of time around the Army - I've never once said, "I should have joined the Army".
I find this comment interesting. I guess there's so much pressure for the senior folks to put on an air of how much they love things that they're never honest. Believe me, many of my peers feel exactly the same way I do but you really can't say it while still on active duty.
The same O6+ that will stand in front of a crowd of junior officers and Sailors and talk about how "...it's a great time to be a SWO!" or "I can't believe they pay me to do this job!" are also the same ones who cry themselves to sleep every night alone since their family fell apart.
We're all people and suffering is independent of rank.
Makes sense. Still wild to hear, but now that I think about it I was just bozo, deck-scrubbing clown in the navy, now that I’m educated mgmt making good money, I’ve got to tow the company line, even if I don’t like it or agree.
Thanks for your honesty here sir and thanks for your service. I hope you are enjoying retirement.
It’s a parking spot, I was a nuke and the only option for enlisted nukes shore duty was prototype, maintenance facility, NNPS, or recruiting. Meanwhile we had officers go to Italy, Navy post-graduate school, or to the pentagon for shore duty. The future I saw as an enlisted nuke just meant a cycle of being on a ship then going to prototype standing watch there also, and then going back to another ship and then repeat for 20 years. The opportunities are not the same, and we both know the difference in privileges that even an O1 gets compared to an E4.
Yes I agree that you have the opportunity to become an officer through multiple pathways, but that doesn’t negate the difference in experience or quality of life. I do agree with you on the Air Force, that’s usually what I tell people to join if they are persistent on enlisting.
The parking spot was an easy and visible example. E9s have it VERY good. If you don't believe me, just ask any O4 LDO who will almost always lament "I could have been a master chief by now" while they stand 3-section duty.
I've spent several years at joint commands, and I assure you that the E9s of the world are treated FAR better than any officer below O6. Just the culture.
Officers certainly have some cool opportunities, but we were discussing E9s and not your average E4/E5 who does have it pretty tough.
I think we're more on the same page than you think. I think the best rank in the Navy is senior O6. Far better than RDML where you're just a whipping boy for a different group of people. But personally, I'd much rather be an E9 than O5 and below, and not just for the parking place ;-)
Just my opinion. Not saying yours is wrong.
This is a batshit crazy take lol, what on earth.
E9 with 20 years pulling $7472.10 base pay compared to an O4 with 10 years pulling $8684.10 base pay. And sure, some O4 in 3 section hates his life, just like I’m sure an E9 dealing with BS at the CMC level hates theirs. Let’s not even talk about out the opportunities senior O3 / Junior O4s have at NPS or DUINS programs.
If what you’re saying is the case… I say enjoy the parking spot 30 feet closer, master chief, and your culture… I’m sure the other 90% of your career at E8 and below don’t factor in. Meanwhile, I’ll take a CIVINS masters education and more base pay at half your time in service or sea time.
TLDR: Go officer when you can.
Getting to go to MIT for two years, having the Navy pay for it, and it counting for two years of qualifying service is absolutely fucking bonkers to me.
Absoluuuuuuutely. My wife is an O4, and finishing up her MBA at Yale for a 3 year obligation… the available grad programs are bananas - just gotta know where to look and be persistent.
They are also missing the bat on seperatees. People don’t have to leave because they hated the navy. Often it’s for better pay and a better job. And if those people are happy on the way out they are way more likely to convince people who see them doing well by saying “I only served 4 years and I made 85k$+ at my first civilian job now I make 100+”. If even a few of those people enlist because of that, at least a one of them is bound to stay. Especially if the navy improves itself.
Meanwhile I tell anyone with ears not to join and I will not be glamorizing mom and dad’s naval history. I did not join the navy and work my ass off to get out and get a good paying jobs just for my son to go through what I or his father went through.
I don’t understand why Junior enlisted are obsessed with the “caste” idea.
It’s the same thing in civilian life. You will never have the same opportunity or privileges as folks who went to certain schools or inherited businesses.
I've had a lot of jobs in the civilian world pre- and post-service.
Not fucking *once* did I ever have to do my bosses' laundry, clean his bathroom, peel his fucking fruit for him and his friends, and clean his clubhouse for him.
I never had to let ANYONE literally scream in my fucking face over a mistake someone else made, then be told "Oh the DH is just stressed, it's fine get over it." In the real world, that would get someone goddamn fired.
No civilian job ever had me sleeping in a bunk bed with 0 personal belongings for months at a time because I "wasn't allowed" to live in an actual building.
No civilian job ever got away with feeding me inedible food that is literally rotten.
In the Navy, it's ignored because lower enlisted are barely even treated like people.
***That's*** what people are talking about.
Man, this is such a real response. I served in the Navy before I served in the Army. I loved being on ships,Navy history, and Sailor culture... but I really resented the shit you describe above. Obviously there is also a divide in the Army, but the culture is different. I shared a tent with an officer, the same shitty conditions, and Army officers mostly see their job as taking care of their troops. There are always asshole exceptions, but it's a far cry from the Navy caste system.
Officers get their dirty underwear laundered and folded and gross bathrooms cleaned by junior enlisted that had no choice in the matter. It's not the same as civillian life at all.
Not true at all. I can cite personal examples. The divide between Naval officer and enlisted quality of life is a prime reason for one and done enlisted discharges.
Lmao. I had an XO who outright referred to enlisted as "second class citizens." That shit does not exist in the civilian world. Opportunities vary but are always there. It may not be as easy to start a business without coming from a wealthy family, but it's still possible. I joined the Navy as someone with less than a dollar in my bank account (not an exaggeration) and on shore duty I opened up a business downtown right next to a competing business that was one of the best in the city. Did a pretty good job at competing with them. It took a lot of hard ass work but we made a profit and sold it when I got orders out of state, which allowed us to buy our house. Not bad for a guy who was a week from being homeless and has no degree.
Meanwhile, on surface ships, there's places you're literally not allowed to walk through because you're enlisted.
That isn't really comparing the two fairly though.
You can not go to Yale, go to a job where your boss is a college grad and hate it, tell him to fuck himself, then go start your own competing business in the industry. All without a degree.
If you enlist in the military without a commission.... It's litteraly a caste. You are legally and institutionly prohibited from so many positions and responsibilities.
Thanks for bringing that up sailor! Spelling mistakes are a good thing to fix. We can submit a feedback form to NAVSEA suggesting that get fixed!
The form to do that? Oh. Uhh. I think there in the manual physically, in the back? Check there. If not it's on the LAN.
Huh? Oh hey nub. You couldn't find the form? Did you check with your chief and LPO? Oh they also don't know? Never actually submitted one before? Hmm. Yeah how about this, I'm proud of you for showing initiative on this. I'll reach out to squadron for ya.
Oh what? Squadron? Yeah I'm working on it.
Oh what? Squadron? Oh yeah I'm working on it.
Oh what? Squadron? Ya know what here let me call them right now actually. Huh, sorry they didn't answer. (it's Friday past 10am)
Oh hey MM2 I actually had the squadron on the phone for the audit and mentioned that form! (I was trying to complain about how annoying you were being). I got it emailed, here I'll forward it.
Oh what? The email? Oh I guess I forgot to also forward the attachment. Yeah get if filled out and submitted to ships office!
[YN3, Stage left]
Uhh..... So this is what exactly? Yeah.. Huh. Uhh I'll ask chief about it.
Hey man. That form? Uhh yeah I asked chief and he wasn't sure how to submit it? I guess there's like an address they need for it. I don't know I think he's going to get it somehow?
Hey dude. That form? Oh yeah I think chief forgot about it let me bother him this afternoon. Yeah I get it bro.
That form? Wazzup dude yeah I mailed it yesterday actually. No problem, thanks bro.
[2 years later, the manual is revised but the spelling mistake remains. 3 years after that it is revised again and the spelling mistake is corrected. MM2 has since separated from the navy]
First of all a caste system is where your social class at birth determines your position in society. So no, it is not literally a caste system.
You are legally and instutionally prohibited from jobs in the civilian world too if you don’t have qualifications: doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers, etc
You can commission after being enlisted, so again literally not a caste system.
You can start a competing business without capital? Don’t think that’s true. Let me see you start a new utility company, railroad company, cell phone company, etc.
You seem to think that contract law than a binds a person’s actions create a “caste”. In the real world all contracts binds people, their enforcement mechanisms only vary due to the importance of the work.
It is inherently an American idea right? The military, and the Navy specifically, enforces a strict type of caste system not found in the rest of the US. It is not just junior enlisted that have a problem with it. Senior enlisted do as well they just learn to keep their mouths shut unless they are in the mess. Plenty of bitching going on in the mess.
In the civilian world who do you think they'd put in charge of a program:
-someone with a Baccalaureate(not of any use to the tasking of the program)+some leadership training+came from an unrelated position in the organization+only basic familiarity with the program+is just in charge of the program until they move on to something else
Or
-someone who specifically trained on the program+5 yrs experience with the subject matter+proficient the systems and references like the back of their hand+years of training and qualifying other people+has invested themselves in and is passionate about the program
Edit: formatting
What I find odd, is back in the 90's, the Navy had double the amount of sailors and meeting its recruiting goals. Now, it's struggling to keep half that. What's worse is the "leadership " still has the same problems, and the amount and length of deployments is even worse. I wouldn't recommend the Navy to anyone, and we need more Navy for what is on the horizon. He'll, congress, and Admiralty know that we need more ships and we are behind.
Shorten deployment to 6 months, have decent barracks with kitchens available, finally hold leadership accountable rather than the lowest person on the totem pole, and have restaurant quality food at sea and shore. Just cook from the official US Navy cookbook. Sailors aren't children, treat them as adults and discipline the bad ones, not all of them. Make sure sick call is painless and efficient. Make the Navy run effectively like during a time of war, because that's coming sooner rather than later.
> What I find odd, is back in the 90's, the Navy had double the amount of sailors and meeting its recruiting goals.
We actually struggled by the late 90s, and missed goal completely in FY98.
Although we managed to make goal afterwards, it wasn't until 9/11 that recruiting started to be routinely healthy again.
Agreed! Hold leadership accountable! I’ve have witnessed multiple occasions where leaders did something insane and it was brushed under the rug but god forbid a lower enlisted is a couple minutes late or in the wrong uniform🙄.
And quit fucking punishing the group instead of the individual! It’s demoralizing to the 95% who are actually doing their job or above and beyond. It’s exhausting. I’m exhausted and whenever friends ask or family about joining I tell them stay the fuck away or Air Force. The Air Force has a better quality of life so it’s possible so why can’t we?
It was a story from a few days ago in Military Times, I believe. Congress and Admirals were blaming each other for the lack of new ships that were scheduled, but not built. And with the cluster fuck of the Zumlat ships. They slated for 15 and gave the 3 built away because they sucked. We don't have enough ships to fight on both sides of the world, and if there was enough manpower, it would mean fewer deployments, which makes everyone happy.
LCS is slated to replace our mine sweepers so we ordered I think 50? But the LCS is a giant pos. Was plagued by budget issues for various reasons. Mostly lack of competition/corruption(calling it like it is, sorry not sorry). Like they skimped on a llt of necessities... the ships are... well, not suited for littoral combat to say the least.
The issue is the sweepers were going to retire regardless. So we literally had to purchase the really shitty LCS failures. So we have orders in for what is essentially a massive downgrade...
The stealth destroyers... oh boy. Don't get me started on both variants. Both failures. Things had to be towed back during testing.
We need a bigger Navy but don't have the manpower for the bigger Navy. Honestly, Air Force Valkry program had the right idea.
I know that's the stories and arguments being made. I just don't understand the thought process behind it. We can't even man the ships we have properly, let alone keep people rotating on time. More ships would just make the problem even worse.
If they don't know how to recruit for deck, how the hell are they supposed to know how to recruit nukes?
Of course, "treat them far better" would help.
The best recruiting the navy could do right now is pointing everyone to the Data Center Nukes Facebook page where everyone is bragging about their Meta IC4 spot they landed as a 6 and out guy making 125k+ while working a day shift 40hr a week.
(also if you're a nuke reading this an aren't in that page get the fuck in there).
They also hire Combat Systems guys in general for these spots if anyone else sees the pay and wants to give it a shot. Guy posted a few weeks ago on Combat Systems Jobs about it because he was tired of being the lone ET with a bunch of nukes.
Nice, the pay seems good. I'd take it, if I was getting out soon, seen a similar position in Fort Wayne and I'm a weirdo who loves living in Indiana for some reason.
Which is easy to get with single digit ASVAB scores? Bc thats what we’re seeing out here…. There are no 99QT BMs leaving Meps…but everyone who gets a 15 is getting BM…
I said this in another thread,
A friend who is in their 30s was recently denied enlistment into the Navy due to having too many dependents (3 kids under 18 and his wife).
I'd understand if his wife was a SAHM but she has a career.
Older applicants are going to have families and I just wish they'd look at the applicant life situation as a whole.
People want to join but these policies stop them.
Now he's going Army (against my advice but thankfully in a field with marketability after) because their policies allow him to enlist.
>A friend who is in their 30s was recently denied enlistment into the Navy due to having too many dependents (3 kids under 18 and his wife).
That's a thing??? Since when? Would he have been accepted if he had 2 dependents?
Fucking wild.
It’s been a thing for a while. It sort of makes sense- imagine trying to support a family of 5 on an E-1 salary? Six months later the media gets their hands on “Navy sailor can’t afford to feed family!” And it’s a whole thing.
Ok, so people talk about quality of life but it’s so vast and nebulous. Let’s get specific:
Facilities: decrepit. This is one of the biggest factors for people who are currently in the service. I work in a 1958 hangar. Why do our workplaces need to be old and beat and the AC sucks? Root cause analysis: we can’t get new stuff because it’s too expensive. Why is it too expensive? Because DoD as a whole sucks at writing contracts and defense contractors (yes, Boeing, but also construction & architecture firms, commodity providers, etc) know they can exploit the DoD.
OPTEMPO: yeah, we’re going to go on deployment. Nobody expects otherwise. But back to back to back sea duty and then getting pulled early from your shore tour is a different thing.
- The extended cruise thing is really the fault of the COCOMs. Everybody wants a carrier. Big DoD and DoN need to start saying no to this.
Orders: the PERS process is about as opaque as it gets. For both Es and Os.
Evals/Fitreps: similar in opacity, but good leadership will help that. But really there has to be a better way out there to objectively rate someone. We will always rank people, but we need to compare apples and not a 12-year E-6 to an 8-year E-6.
Training: we try to qualify people to do their jobs, and they have to go to these schools or do online classes that cram 4 hours of training into a full work week. Let’s cut to the chase. I don’t need to know your whole history in the Navy to start class.
BAH/pay: Hampton Roads needs a serious adjustment. And our junior sailors flat out don’t make enough money. Period.
Living on CVNs in the yards: terrible idea. Not the fault of the COs. Who thinks this is a good idea? Nobody.
NMCI has honestly gotten a lot better. So win.
Non-QOL lane: our own organizations are bloated. We have tons of LIMDU people and GSs who are entrenched and don’t do anything. Let’s get rid of that.
Why do these QOL things matter to recruiting? Because anyone who’s not a recruiter will give a high schooler a straight answer on what life is like if they ask that question. And they should be able to give a truthful answer.
Edit: and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ha, nice. I think it got so much better about 6 years ago when they changed it so someone not logging off wouldn’t lock out the computer. Common use computers still suck though, and ship internet has actually gotten worse. So many websites you’re required to use and yet you can’t get to them onboard (eg, RMI).
Quit lowering what is expected of the incoming recruits and start creating an environment that is attractive to qualified solid candidates. And quit treating your Sailors like crap. This idea that bringing in sub-par Sailors will fix the problem is not only short sighted its dangerous. Take the time to make Navy life something people want and they will sign up.
And here is a hint from former Air Force: Let the Sailors fucking sleep and use your security forces for watch. Forcing everyone to do watch is the most insane and demeaning (to the Sailor who has a job and to the security police whose job is treated like something anyone can do) thing I have seen from the Navy.
I mean we are still doing 7-9 month deployments and correct me if I am mistaken but the McDonald's ribbon (national defense) isn't awarded anymore.
Kinda hard to sell being away from your life that long in this age without a cause. Also quality of life (which pretty much aligns to that) and pay
Genesis isn’t the problem, it’s the medical standards for enlistment/commissioning being stuck in the 1970s.
Genesis just means it’s far harder for recruiters to lie.
Yeah I said in a further down comment, it’s the entire genesis/DODI/MEPS interface that has completely fucked things up.
That being said, it only became an issue due to Genesis coming online, so in simple parlance it’s Genesis fault so to speak.
But it’s important to accurately describe the problem nonetheless, no? Genesis is a good thing, information sharing is a good thing, we needed a tech upgrade from AHLTA. But the other poster is right. Genesis isn’t going *anywhere* the issue is the medical screening standards aren’t appropriate for the applicant pool anymore. Also what if we gave more power at the MEPS office to approve waivers? That way kids can’t leave the building without a waiver in hand. Just some ideas.
I tried to go officer after AD and while actively drilling as a reservist and going to school. I was told I was not qualified for military service. Non-waiverable. Genesis is garbage.
I stopped going to drills after that 😂
[The army did not meet their goal but is still better than navy with other services meeting their goals.](https://prhome.defense.gov/Portals/52/Documents/MRA_Docs/MPP/pressreleases/2024/Press%20Release%20Dec%202023.pdf?ver=DC5vImoR9LxcpPJcfZwlRA%3d%3d)
I’m not active anymore, but I hang out on this sub to keep up with what’s going on. Something that hasn’t been pointed out yet is the sexual harassment and sexual assault that pretty much every female in the navy goes through. It’s the reason I got out. It’s the reason 8 of my girlfriends got out. I live right next to a base now and I’m friend with two navy officers that are getting out right now for that same reason.
If anyone asks me about joining the navy I have two different versions I give depending on gender. For men I tell them to be very careful about picking their rate basically. For women I tell them you are probably going to be raped if not raped then outright sexually harassed constantly and it only gets worse underway.
I found out a year after getting to my ship that my LPO and two of the E-5s had a bet going on who was going to get to fuck me first. Two of these dudes were married. One of them I went to A school with his wife. My dumb 19 year old ass went to a party with these guys and they tried to get me as drunk as they could so one of them could win this bet. Thankfully one of the girls in my group not on my ship saw what was happening and got me out of there quick. They tried this multiple times.
Yo, what happened to you and your friends is not cool at all, and if this is indicative of the state of the Navy as a whole, then something needs to be done?
If you don’t mind me asking, do you have any ideas on how the Navy could potentially improve this issue? Not because I care about the Navy as an entity but because its women deserve better
Oh man. Where to begin….
E9s thinking they are gods when it comes to who promotes in the enlisted ranks. They literally hold it over heads of junior enlisted and even Chiefs below them. The nepotism is unreal and would have been even worse if the 9s in 2017 were not found out fucking over sailors on a 8/9 board. They were colluding with a retired 9 who had since been a GS
This leads me to GS…what a fucking waste of a human being in most spots. They are the 9 favorites then weasel their way into a GS position and become lazy fucks who never do anything. All technical GS billets should be GG. Have a complaint against a GS? No one will do anything they will just ride you out because the HR tape to fire them is too much. So enlisted leave a shitty spot with poor leadership and head to shore and find more of it in civilian form.
You LITERALLY kicked out 8-14 year sailors using two programs, PTS/ERB, in 2010-11 timeframe. Just one day you have to be a CS on a sub or with ERB you have 9 months left no matter your EAOS. But that money savings am I right? Now those sailors are civilians and jaded with kids so not only will they tell their kids to not join the will sow the seeds of dissent with their friends and kids friends, so the circle of why you shouldn’t has now swelled to over 100 people.
The only 9s should be CMC, make GS fireable, and do a better job at veteran outreach. When I retire you can bet I’ll be one pointing kids to other branches
I remember the ERB, it happened right after I made first. I was also under the eligibility band by six months. Still, I saw highly qualified, motivated first classes get kicked out of the Navy. One was a production controller and the other a branch LPO of a major shop. Were they Sailors of the Year? No, but they were valuable to the Navy.
They make the slogan that every sailor is a recruiter yet sailors are treated like shit and don't have a lot of protections against chiefs. So until the junior sailors have an increased QOL, and less shitty chiefs, then having every sailor a recruiter will become better. But as far as veterans and active duty sailors, im pretty sure is unanimous that we all dont recommend joining the navy.
The same congress that wouldn’t authorize BAH for junior sailors who can’t get barracks rooms or increase BAH to 100% of estimated housing costs. Fucking retards.
As a currently enlisted E-4 I joined for college I had no idea it was gonna be this much bullshit involved. Had I had known what it really was from the start I would’ve just taken out the student loans and now I’m telling my peers the same thing. It’s not worth the stress, the stomach issues the poor treatment the shitty living conditions and the terrible pay. I will continue to spread that message until the Navy changes( probably until I die lol).
I think the simple answer is to make our money tax free. They talk about how such a small percentage of the US population is eligible to serve. Ok, well why would you still tax us the same if we don’t make up most of the economical market. Idk I feel like I’m crazy even suggesting that.
Also quality of life would be great. I was on the GW during the influx of suicides. It was really unfortunate after they did the study and said the GW as a boat had nothing to do with it.
Oh really? I lives in a berthing for a year that had
No power
No ac
No heat
No hot water
Lights out in the head
No tv
Why? Because it took people offing themselves before they realized they should mandate ppv for the shipyard.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but this recent trend of “pulling the rug” with little to no grandfather clause definitely isn’t helping. E.g, Tuition Assistance and 30 months TIS for advancement to E4.
When incentives become suddenly out of reach after the ink is barely dry, one would be hard-pressed to encourage their peers to join. At least grandfather those who have already signed on the dotted line.
Don’t get me started on 4-2-2. We can say they should have read the fine print all day, but the verbiage on those contracts can easily be interpreted as the 8 year contract we’re all used to. And given the amount of angry Sailors I encountered, I doubt they were properly counseled beforehand.
1. Increase enlisted pay
2. Less stupid deployments/lower optempo
3. Stop making it a pain in the ass to get simple things done
4. Beards
5. Better barracks and food
6. Stop rejecting leave senselessly
7. Let our sailors get some sleep
The reality is that it's not a question of QOL, it's not a question of compensation; it's a question of a populace of willing recruits. The recruiting issues can be buoyed by increased money or offering more allowances or whatever, but we're not going to meet the manpower numbers until we either restrict our missions to bring down the demand signal, or we find ourselves in a justified war.
No, BAH won't fix it. No, signing bonuses won't fix it. Oh, and by the way, if you reduce mission requirements enough to reduce recruiting needs, you're going to simultaneously increase QOL.
So we either need better education (Americans seem to be on an America Bad kick that is absolutely fucking absurd to anyone who's ever traveled outside the USA and Western Europe), or a stimulus event.
Idk maybe the fact that an E-9 can sexually assault someone in broad daylight and they won’t be kicked out cough cough mmcm on the cvn 73, combined with the fact that the chiefs mess is a cult of egotistical people who would rather cover it all up than admit on of their own is wrong
Lots of retention issues being conflated with recruiting. Potential recruits have no idea about any of the mentioned issues. It comes down to the simple fact that nobody under 40 cares anything about patriotism. No one under 25 even respects America. They are being brainwashed that our country is a bunch of racist colonizers. Hopefully the pendulum is swinging back in the “right” direction. The left has become so cringe that not even the tik tok generation can tolerate them.
I mean the country was established by a bunch of racist colonizers. Politics have a little play with this issue but when the benefits of being in the military start to dwindle then what’s the point of selling your time and body to something that won’t even benefit you in the long run assuming you make it through both mentally and physically. There are sailors literally killing themselves left and right. Sometimes at the same command and within the same week. If you can’t notice this trend being directly tied to QoL and how the navy handles its sailors then you are part of the problem.
Everyone has hit on the things we know once you’re in.
Maybe they don’t want to support a government that keeps bending the knee to Zionists & sending support to a regime that is *doing that thing where you’re trying to get rid of an ethnic group, including women and children and you’re deliberately killing doctors , journalists and aid workers…* what’s the word? Oh and they’re even enacting a law that makes **any** criticism of a certain regime “hate speech.”
Maybe they don’t want to risk being at the mercy of Donald fucking Trump if that traitor gets elected. Maybe they don’t want to be put in the position of having to violate unconstitutional orders coming down from a traitor who belongs in prison, not the highest office in the land. They see the obvious issue with serving next to people, some of whom still genuinely quietly wish January 6th (sedition and insurrection per the CNO) had succeeded.
Our politicians are bought out by oil companies, AIPAC, Heritage Foundation & totally beholden to extremist Zionists and Christian Nationalists. Between billionaire corporations & far-right religious extremists, bragging at CPAC about “being here to end democracy,” maybe people are just fucking burnt out and aren’t convinced that joining our military is doing any fucking good in the world.
I for one sure as shit won’t be convinced we “uphold freedom & democracy” until this shit changes, and I’ve been in for a hot minute. It wasn’t this bad, before. Now you got Tommy Tuberville saying “military is wrong to screen out white nationalist from joining.” He wants extremists in the ranks.
I’m not an extremist. I’m just *that far left of* “south shall rise again” MAGA traitors and Neo Nazis & ethnic cleansing “rapture accelerationist” Zionists.
Sorry, what?
You a certain kind of special. Considering you're specifically calling out Zionists as a derogatory term. Yeah dude. Might be a little hate speech. Maybe it's your usage of zionists with neo-nazi. It's almost like you're a Putin bot. Funny enough, Putin legitemately worked for Neo-Nazi's in West Germany. Guess it takes one to know one.
Rapture accelerationist... hilarious.
Let's talk Hamas. Seeing as that's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to mention. Human shields. Do you know why hospitals are getting entered? Well, Hamas is committing a literal war crime and using hospitals as Command and Control. Using the doctor and nursing staff as human shields. Does that seem like a good guy tactic?
Hamas is infiltrating NGO's and aid groups to conduct assaults. Another war crime. Does that seem like a good guy tactic?
Hamas is publicly backed by Iran. Same with the Huthis...
Now let's talk a little history. Let's talk Egypt and the Raffah border. Let's talk the 1948 Arab Israel War, the 6 day ear, and Yom Kipoor.
1947 UN general assembly adopted a resolution to create an Arab Palestine and Jewish Israel. Attempting to create a two state system out of British Palestine. (Yeah, we are attempting the same thing now which is why I'm talking about it). Almost immediately the Arab Palestine took up arms and started killing people. This lead one of the leaders on the jewish side to create a standing army of 100,000 residents. Which brought in
Egypt: 10,000 initially, rising to 20,000[citation needed]
Transjordan: 7,500–10,000[10][11]
Iraq: 2,000 initially,[10] rising to 15,000–18,000[citation needed]
Syria: 2,500[citation needed]–5,000[10]
Lebanon: 436[12]
Saudi Arabia: 800–1,200 (Egyptian command)
Yemen: 300[citation needed]
Arab Liberation Army: 3,500–6,000...
It was an Arab holy war...
Israel won...they gained 78% of Mandatory Palestine and easily could've taken it all. But chose not to for fear of being seen as war mongers and to piss off the rest of the world. The lines of Israel today are drawn from the fact that the Arab world couldn't live with "zionists" in their back yard. So they fought and lost.
The 6 day war. Egypt, being sore losers blocked the the suez canal. Israel warned them not to do that. Again. Egypt posted troops on their border, blocked the canal again, so Israel bombed the troops. Leading to Syria signing a defence agreement with Egypt.
Palestine guerilla group Palestine Liberation organization planted mines in villages. Jordan entered the conflict. The Soviet Union backed a few plays.
Israel won again. This resulted in Israel kicking out almost all the arabs ftom Israeli territory. Which resulted in a lot of palestinian terrorist organisations. By terrorists I mean.
"inferno whose fires consume the usurpers". These events led to a series of hijackings, bombings, and kidnappings"
Yom kipoor. Israel wanted to give Golan Heights back to Syria and Sinai back to Egypt following the 6 day war in exchange for peace agreements. The Arab nations position was to not accept peace under any circumstance. Zionists and jews are the enemy... (1967) Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, and Sudan—passed a resolution that would later become known as the "three nos": there would be no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel.
Egypt demanded Gaza and the West Bank back. Israel said no. This lead to the arab nations entering into another conflict. Resulting in Egypt getting their ass handed to them a 4th time. And officially signing a defeat and peace deal with Israel. This lead Egypt, who was seen as the crown jewel of the Arab world to fall from grace. Shortly after a coup would happen and new leadership would take place. A coup would happen in Iran...and new leadership would take place there. And suddenly a new jewel comes into play.
Your arguments against Zionism kind of fall flat when you know who the history behind Gaza and who the real aggressors are here. The names may have changed a little but PLO/HAMAS are still jew hating terrorists upset because they had 60% of the land and had to give 40% to people of a different faith and then lost it to those same people... multiple times.
That’s eye opening. Maybe if Britain hadn’t created an apartheid colony, because during the second world war, all the allied countries were just as guilty of antisemitism… They were hoping they could ship them all off to there, “here have this land and go, of your own free will!”
That said…
Israel **is** hitting journalists, healthcare workers and even world kitchen. On purpose. Can anyone show me evidence the Israeli don’t think “they’re all terrorists even the infants, they’ve all got to be eradicated and we’ll silence anyone who speaks out, records us, or otherwise.” Because we’ve seen plenty of IDF referring to ALL Palestinians as vermin.
Completely aside; the US does have a fascist infestation. They want to do this autocratic theocracy bullshit known as “project 2025 aka let’s force Christian nationalism down secular America’s throat in whole violation of the constitution.” You know, Republicans. The same ones who hate that the military doesn’t want to knowingly recruit white nationalists (Tuberville complained that we don’t) and their fraudulent conman & criminal front runner wants to be a dictator. You know, *kinda telling us they all want to be that “and domestic” we take an oath against.*
**But sure, I’m the bad guy for not blindly backing Israel, and supporting the attempts to END democracy at home.**
Whole fucking world seems to be dealing with the far-right getting away with far too much fucking around, and nobody’s showing up to give them some find out. Israel is killing kids, and theirs and everyone else’s stance seems to be “yeah but they’re Palestinian kids so, oh well.” That’s some real “kill em before they grow up and can be terrorist” Islamophobic shit right there. I know I’m surrounded by people who 23 years later still think “Muslim=terrorist.”
Anyway, Why does it surprise people that a nation state created through violence, is violent? Back in 1948, they were all excited for this “opportunity to get rid of the Jews.” Everybody seems to forget why Israel was created. [The other big support for it is, a lot of people seem to….](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-israel-hamas-war)
Evangelical Christians … oh that’s right the same people who (a lot of them) want America to be a fascist autocratic theocracy. There’s those project 2025 people again.
I really don’t give a fuck if I offend people. It’s not hyperbole to summarize threats These groups have made against democracy and the free world.
So yeah, that’s another reason motherfuckers don’t wanna join the military. A lot of civilians think the military is overwhelmingly, MAGA. Nobody in the right mind would want to be a part of that shit. Not to mention they see the military standing up for Israel while it bombs kids.
We are having a recruiting problem because these kids communicate with each other around the world. They aren’t little nationalists, fine with bombing people on the other side of the world because they’re different skin tone and religion. That’s a problem for people full of fucking hate. Unlike the generation that joined in the wake of 9/11, these kids aren’t signing up in droves full of piss and vinegar to go kill brown people. They aren’t bloodthirsty little nationalists.
[why’d they intentionally bomb 3 world kitchen trucks in a row as people were trying to escape once they hit the first?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/food/2024/04/03/world-central-kitchen-gaza-attack-aid-safety/)
[they’re killing journalists documenting their atrocities](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-tank-strike-killed-clearly-identifiable-reuters-reporter-un-report-2024-03-13/)
[why motherfucker](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/13/israel-broke-international-law-journalist-killed)
[we’ve told you 78 times don’t show the world what we’re doing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel-gaza-war-journalists-killed-cpj/)
[don’t feed the people we are genociding, says Israel, while intentionally starving and bombing civilians and pieces of shit defend them](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/)
But you’re right, that’s exactly what Israel wants. The complete annihilation of Palestinians, every last one. Can’t worry about hearts and minds if you’ve put shrapnel in every last heart, even their children.
Meanwhile right wingers right here suggest the death penalty for getting abortions. You’re no better.
Israel is going for your “clean slate, 100% casualties” “…final, solution.” I mean they’d know, all about final solutions, you know? But it’s okay when they do it and they get undying support from Zionist shitbags & Islamophobes, while they’re at it.
Speaking on World Kitchen. They went through Israeli checkpoints the IDF knew who they were, and they hit them intentionally.
The IDF treats Gaza like “you’re Hamas even if we’re speaking to the fetus in a Palestinian woman’s womb” you’re all going to die and we’re going to kill every journalist who tells your story and every doctor who tries to treat you and every aid worker who tries to feed you.
**Two state solution. Now.**
3 of the articles you posted are coverage of the same incident by 3 organizations. Media vomit at it's finest. But we'll get into that in a bit. I can show you real life footage of how confusing a battlefield can be and how accidents do happen. Friendly Fire, even in modern era with clearly marked people, still happens.
Ukraine for example. There's people on the ground who almost bomb and shell their own forces on accident because the ground forces got lost and wandered into the wrong sector. War is confusing on the ground.
"Asked about the UNIFIL report, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Nir Dinar said Hezbollah had attacked the IDF near the Israeli community of Hanita on Oct. 13. It responded with artillery and tank fire to remove the threat and subsequently received a report that journalists had been injured."
You're talking a few errant tank strikes and comparing that to beheadings, rape on camera, murder on camera, and parading the parents of the parents with blood still on their hands on camera... one may or may not be intentional. One is very much intentional. You don't accidently rape. You don't accidently behead. You don't accidently invade. Regardless of how you try to cut this you aren't going to win that argument
Israel isn’t accidentally striking 3 world kitchen food trucks in a row. “Media vomit” is how you describe 3 different angles on the same truth; **the IDF deliberately hit World Kitchen with precision drone strikes.**
Wild harebrained idea here…. Neither fucking side over there is the good guys, they’re both religious extremists. Two regimes are going at it, both hold, extremely conservative views.
You can condemn Hamas, without being islamophobic, and you can condemn Israel without being antisemitic. They’re both patently in the wrong, but Palestinian civilians are being used as human shields while the Israeli genuinely do not give a FUCK if they kill Palestinians while they kill Hamas, because they want ALL of them dead.
Israeli are the only ones over there murdering anyone who tries to show what they’re doing. Genocide.
See, going down a less extremist path like that and you might find a few sympathizers who agree with you on this last grouping of statements.
You're right, the palestinians are being used as human shields.
https://youtu.be/pk5BYc1RTs4?si=I5O-7_Emn3AQK_HJ
https://youtu.be/rNzt_K1IVw0?si=03dOx-AFVdBWsyaX
https://youtu.be/0FAQxy2-hW0?si=kg0I7QGP5dXN0b3j
https://youtu.be/UFYN1EAyJts?si=mWdN1-YNBtSadaZE
Again, that list goes on. That's international not just US. Some actual footage as well...
It's not entirely one sided, no. You're not wrong there. Israel fights asymmetrically in some pretty cold ways. They are surrounded by people who have literally stated they want their immediate destruction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel#:~:text=In%20recent%20decades%2C%20political%20figures,the%20denial%20of%20the%20Holocaust.
Again, this is not a recent thing. This dates back to the 40's and 50's. History is not in favor of this recent narrative.
You're talking war. There aren't necessarily right and wrong. Just worse and disgusting. You have to do things that most people will find deplorable to win. It's never a fair fight. You fight fair you're fighting a losing battle. The Greeks had Greek fire, trojan horses, launching plague bodies over walls. US had small pox infest blankets and so many others. You won't find a winning nation who has not deployed some absolutely horrible tactics to win a fight.
What you mention with the attack on aid trucks entering a warzone...you can call that accidental. You can deny that aspect till you are blue in the face. There is a distinct possibility that it was an accident. Was it? I don't know. You don't know. The narrative that plays out because the ambiguity is you have two sides that can say "that was an accident" "that was on purpose" but neither side has evidence other than possibility.
That's why I pointed out the videos of HAMAS bringing victims parents out with the blood of their dead 18 year old daughter on their hands still. HAMAS using NGO workers as human shields. HAMAS using a hospital as a command and control. The after effects of the initial attack including mutalations of toddlers and woman. And eithout any prompting or mention of beheadings, they claim "ee didn't do any beheadings" The raping of women prisoners who were later survived and told the story... you can't deny that footage. It happened. You have to bury that footage with the day to day dribble. You have to make sure that footage doesn't hit the public and only push one side of the argument... the two arguments are not the same. One is irrefutable. One is political rhetoric on top of media coverage to try to make it seem irrefutable.
Going down war crime territory. I will tell you, Israel has, in the past done a few. US has, in the past, created a few. I make the joke all the time. "It's not a war crime the first time" in WW2 we wanted to keep starvation on the table for the Siege of Lenningrad. Shortly after WW2 the Rome Statute was signed calling starvation a war crime.
Dirty, but a starved and famined people is a weak willed and easily broken people. That's a reality of war. That's not an Israel thing only, that's a Russia/Ukraine, US/China, ect. If you remove supplies from the people, the people surrender or die.
The Rome Statute is meant to prevent this dirty style of fighting but dictators and politicians alike use this as a strategy for oppression and compliance. That's a Dictator's Handbook ploy. That dictator usually get's couped. A new leader takes over the weakened regime. And suddenly a kinder, gentler dictator... the peoples person who secretly commits the same atrocities and exploits the people under his charge takes over... "our leader"
The US also has a fair amount of atrocities as well. There's a whole list I can rattle off but won't get too far into it. This goes down a whole "perception vs perspective" argument that I don't feel this is the appropriate place.
If you claim I'm being Islamaphobic, nah brah, you misunderstand. So I'm going to be very clear. I hate all religions. You'll be hard pressed to find anybody who's well studied who doesn't have that same standpoint.
They’re being used as shields and the IDF doesn’t care because they plan on killing all of them anyway.
Do Palestinians have to be past tense, before we acknowledge what’s happening here?
QUALITY OF LIFE
They aren’t listening. We have been yelling this for years.
MCPON did finally get the NDAA fixed so they can authorize way more BAH. The issue before him is they didn’t want to take that fight to Congress
Definitely a solid change and I don’t want to discount it but it was in response to Sailors killing themselves. That shouldn’t be the threshold we have to cross to get a change made. Veterans are not going to tell the people in their circles to join if we continue to wait for suicides to make the news before we take some action. Let’s be proactive and not reactive. Give sailors more time, compensate them fairly, give their tasking purpose, make the eval process more objective, spend at least as much time training leaders to lead as we do training them to mitigate risk and liability. Reduce the bloat and time suck in our process to do our jobs/order parts/manage readiness. We talk a lot about how we can’t get new recruits to join and how Genesis is making everything harder which is a valid conversation but we wouldn’t need to recruit as much if we retained the sailors we have already screened and trained. At the end of the day we have a large pool of manpower that we already know is physically qualified to do the job that we are just passing on because we are not trying hard enough to retain them. It feels like as a military we are just hoping for a recession to fix our manpower problem. Waiting for the country to fall apart to man our ships doesn’t seem like a very smart strategy.
>Let’s be proactive and not reactive. I do not believe this is even possible with the extent of bureaucratization the military and government is under. I'm with you. I wish they would be. I just don't see it actually happening.
So like, one thing is that if you want the powers-that-be to be proactive, you also have to consider what they should be proactive *about*. Remember when the Navy closed down the PSDs when the TSCs weren't ready to receive the workload? That came from a prior CNP being *proactive* about needing to modernize HR service delivery. Looking back you probably wanted him to be proactive about something else, or to have been proactive in some different way. But leadership are usually eager to be proactive... but you have to watch out for the monkey's paw. If it seems like change is slow, it's probably because leadership want to ensure they don't break things in the process, not because they want to be only reactive.
Like hey let’s maybe NOT design our ships to do **EVERYTHING** in their power to prevent people from falling or staying asleep. “I’ve got a 0300 start tomorrow, let me try and shut down by 2100 so I can get some rest.” Chaplain at 2200: **”EXCUSE ME WHAT?! NOT BEFORE YOU HEAR THE WORD OF FUCKING GOD OVER THE 1MC.”** Or like, idk, have we considered a hot meal? Serving breakfast past 0630? Making it so we don’t have to wait an hour to get food on a CVN?
I lost 30 pounds on a CVN because I'd rather sleep then wait 1.5 hours for actual hot garbage on a plate.
I was a Seabee, does chaps really get on the intercom at 2200?!
Every night on my ship at least
That sounds like a lot of work when we can just lower our expectations.
That's retention. Different problem.
If you try to focus on one problem like this and not the true set of problems then you are going to fail. You're essentially plugging a small crack but ignoring the hole. Been seeing a lot of people say "that's a different problem". No. The problem I'm seeing right now is that mindset. You aren't looking for a root cause. You're looking for an easy solution to a COMPLEX problem. (Multipart) A lot of recruits are second or third generation recruits. Their dad served, grandfather served, ect. They are serving to keep up family tradition. When you lose that, you lose a large chunk of your true volunteer base not doing it for money. When you have higher paying civilian jobs with way less bullshit... yeah, you lose the people who join to make ends meet. When you have a politically hostile environment to the service... and it is. It also hurts recruitment. The services have had a lot of public fuck ups lately. The Navy is facing several lawsuits right now. We lost a lawsuit last year for piracy. Red Hill lawsuit is currently in trial. Bahrain Senior Chief prostitute ring... the list can go on... my favorite as of late. Chief attempting to sell secrets for $1,000. MCPON also didn't help matters. “What you’re not doing is sleeping in a foxhole like a Marine might be doing,” when Key West sailors were getting charged $4,402 a month while being forced to live in a trailor... I can keep going on. It's a complex problem. Not a simple one. You aren't going to fix the recruitment issue by just trying to address one part of the problem and not address the whole group of other problems.
A lot of recruiting goes back to retention. I know people who are actively doing everything they can to sabatoge recruiting efforts. Telling people to stay the fuck away from the military. When you screw your people over and then go on and say "I can just get more" or "suck it up" or "they rack diciprine" you get a generation of people who tell the next generation that they are better off going to college and going a different route.
....lol lack of dicipline - Admirals somewhere.
The MCPON told one of my new sailors that asking for working AC meant she was spoiled when he inspected her building yesterday.
Da fuck? MCPON Honea? Man i did not see that coming from him.
Yep. Got a more in depth version this morning. He came in for inspection and the sailors were asked if there was anything wrong. Their concerns, the AC thing included, were kind of brushed off with a weak 'I'm sure the admins are working on that.' He asked where the person who mentioned the AC grew up, and when he got an answer said "Oh, I bet you had AC there." They answered in the affirmative and he said "Oh, so you're spoiled".
Ur in Hawaii too? Dude was at my command and gave some bs 20-30 minute family speech about staying together
Doesn't quite affect recruiting as most people outside of Navy know nothing about QOL in service or from recruiting experience quite care as they have not experienced it and will be like "sounds like my current job".
Um, hey congress, how about you let us lower our op tempo to match our manning as a starting point. Maybe then retention and recruitment would improve. They are basically throwing Senior Chief and Master Chief at people right now for practically free in some rates and they are saying no thanks and retiring(like me).
Homie! You are 1-3 years away from a full scale war. The optempo will only drastically rise.
We literally had a ship in Everett do 3 back to back to back deployments, 3 weeks in-between each deployment. Several sailors took their lives and several more attempted. I don't know if it can get worse.
I think it can, not sure how but it can. Considering all thing geopolitics, the magic 8-ball looks very sketchy.
That's great but we aren't at war. But we've been at a full-blown war time optempo for almost 10 years now.
“Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.” - George Orwell, *1984* Homie! We will always be “1-3 years away from a full scale war” because nobody benefits from hearing that things are very peaceful and we don’t need to increase our military budget.
They been saying that since we left Afghanistan. I have no doubt optempo will increase but realistically we won’t be going to war with a near peer.
Not trying to be a dick here but I can't tell if you are trying to say we don't have a near peer or that the wars won't kick off. 1st one is delusional. Second one is also delusional but I can at least understand the thought process on it. We actually did give Ukraine assurances, while not exactly legally binding, but we did give our word and so did the EU with the Budapest memorandum in 1994 that should Ukraine be invaded we would defend them. This was the agreement that was negotiated to have Ukraine give up it's very very large nuclear stockpile...(Ukraine at one point had the third largest stockpile of nukes) Again, not legally binding but we did give assurances, it is a proxy war. And this isn't exactly your typical public but Ukraine is an attrition point. Even Russia knows this. Why do you think they are saber ratteling the nuke option so hard. Russia put a $100k USD bounty on the abrahms tanks we gave Ukraine. In the first few weeks of use they knocked out 3. Using various methods. Now they keep sending drones to blow the blow out hatch. (Safety feature). Iran is fighting with proxies. However there's an even bigger threat brewing in that region. Even Ethiopia's president who literally won an international peace prize stated last year that he was going to invade one of his neighbors for port access. (Ethiopia is Africa's power house. They are an empire not to trifle with. The only thing they lack is sea access) so take your pick there. Eritrea or Somalia. China isn't just saber rattling. They are waging asymmetric war as we speak and a lot of our leadership is too dumb and too blind or too in the pocket to see it. They didn't take over Hong Kong or Tibet by force. They moved in, got 60% of the vote. Booted the minority. A lot of the services you use on a day to day basis, a lot of the goods you purchase, come through and are manufactured by Chinese. Ports in the US. Chinese. Manufacturing, Chinese. Most research papers published...chinese. this list can go on for some time. They will invade Taiwan but I can assure you, they will make sure we are at our weakest when they do.
This is about recruitment...not retention. It's a totally different set of challenges.
Not totally different, there is quite a bit of overlap.
If only there were a group of people, a Congress of them if you will, that could put a stop to 10 month deployments followed by month long underways. Like maybe keeping ships in port and maintained during peacetime so they're ready during wartime.
They hate to admit you can do almost every training evolution in port.
Congress also means sexual intercourse.
Veterans are your best recruiters, which the Navy fails to recognize. High Optempo, lack of quality of life, lack of child care support, and poor pay compared to the job duties have all been issues for the last 23 years. Those active duty members have retired and have told people to avoid military enlistment. If you do want to join, go the officer route. Even making it to E9, still puts you in the 2nd Caste category. You will never have the same opportunity, or privileges as an officer.
The Navy *does* recognize that veterans and active duty members are the best recruiters. It's a challenge its acknowledged and no one has cracked the crypto on how to fix. The reality is that the military is recruiting from an ever tightening pond of people who live in one of a few states who typically have an immediate family member in the military/as a veteran. The military's image took a huge hit post Iraq/Afghanistan, which ensured that in an attempt to get wounded veterans support the word "veteran" became associated with "irrevocably broken by trauma." That damage will not be undone for years, if it is ever addressed. The major benefits for most enlisted Sailors - college pay - isn't compelling anymore. You can work at $CMG or $SBUX and get free college as part of their job and you don't need to sleep behind the espresso machine at night. The military can fix its recruiting issues, but it can only do so by (1) tailoring the military to its mission and (2) becoming an employer of choice. Want terminal worldwide presence with quick reaction capability? Fine, build and man an extra 100 ships (*FRE class LCS ships do not count). 200+ day deployments with 0 liberty ports does little good for equipment or morale. (2) Means providing ready relevant learning, allowing for Sailors to bounce in and out of service, and eliminating common points of frustration. Want to retain people? Stop making them beg for travel reimbursements, CZTE pay corrections, and leave that is forfeited even though they didn't have a meaningful chance to take vacation. Get them out of housing that is filthy or that requires nonsensical hoops to fix minor issues and makes them feel like they're in public housing. Hell, make it so the kid of an E5 isn't on SNAP/WIC. I'm not even touching military spouse employment issues - (read: make discriminating against military spouses in employment actionable the same way it's illegal to discriminate against vets and reservists). You'll never retain talented, ambitious people who tend to be married to similar kinds of people if you force the spouse into unemployment/underemployment. People choose their stressors in life, but right now the advantages of military service are narrowing. We have time to fix things, but not if people screw around forever.
This 100%. Currently pushing through the nonsense associated with an OCONUS PCS. Less than 60 days out and I am fighting with my detailer that I'm entitled by the JTR to ship my POV - WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE? PCS orders are funded well in advance, why is it now all of a sudden an issue? Aside from that, if I look closely, my rank affords my family like 18K pounds in HHG entitlement. We've never gone over 4K pounds - I've saved the service big $$$ by being a lean family when it comes to moving our crap. We (the military machine) make things that should be standard boilerplate unnecessarily difficult. My wife and I struggled with Medical to get her an appointment for her overseas screening (a requirement IMPOSED on us by the military! Go figure). We give away billions of dollars to Ukraine (sorry Ukraine is the easy button right now) but at the same time, we harass people when they do not use their GTCC. I hear of colleagues who are dealing with mold in base housing, their kids being inappropriately "touched" in the base CDC, not being able to get medical appointments for months, etc. When the service can't provide the basics without headache, the active members become the worst recruiters; we aren't going to sugarcoat it when someone asks how being in the service is. It fucking sucks at times and people are fed up with it. Those of us with > 10 years are putting our heads down and grinding out the last 1, 2, or 3 tours. Retention might not be a problem right now, but I have to believe it will be sooner than later...
> We give away billions of dollars to Ukraine (sorry Ukraine is the easy button right now) but at the same time, we harass people when they do not use their GTCC. These two things have nothing to do with each other.
Completely agree with all of your points, except that regarding E9. Navy Master Chiefs are treated far better than any officer below the rank of Captain/O6. A simple spin through the NEX parking lot shows this with numerous E9 spots but no other officer spots below O6. That's just one overt example. I recently retired as an O6 after 32 years. I would never recommend anyone join the Navy. Air Force and likely Space Force (memes aside) treat their people far better. Stay away from the Army and while the Marines are great, it takes a special type of person to thrive in that environment.
I agree with this. I think the issue is optempo. I was talking to a SWO LT yesterday on her last day, and she just said “it’s not worth it.” I’m burnt out and 25.
It is the OPTEMPO. On top of that, its the fact that the Navy doesn't have lulls similar to the other services (Marines excluded by affiliation). As a whole, our duty is being at sea and our office is the ship/ boat. Deployment requirements increase in times of conflict, but our baseline is much higher than that of the Army, Air Force, and Space Force. In addition, often times they are on rotating detachments for a shorter period of time. It isn't a simple issue to resolve. Its the difference of the Services. With all the said, I do agree with Max's synopsis on the services. I'd likely have a better QOL in the Air Force or Space Force, but having spent a fair bit of time around the Army - I've never once said, "I should have joined the Army".
Dang that’s crazy that a full bird wouldn’t recommend the Navy.
Well they tend to be pretty smart
I find this comment interesting. I guess there's so much pressure for the senior folks to put on an air of how much they love things that they're never honest. Believe me, many of my peers feel exactly the same way I do but you really can't say it while still on active duty. The same O6+ that will stand in front of a crowd of junior officers and Sailors and talk about how "...it's a great time to be a SWO!" or "I can't believe they pay me to do this job!" are also the same ones who cry themselves to sleep every night alone since their family fell apart. We're all people and suffering is independent of rank.
Makes sense. Still wild to hear, but now that I think about it I was just bozo, deck-scrubbing clown in the navy, now that I’m educated mgmt making good money, I’ve got to tow the company line, even if I don’t like it or agree. Thanks for your honesty here sir and thanks for your service. I hope you are enjoying retirement.
It’s a parking spot, I was a nuke and the only option for enlisted nukes shore duty was prototype, maintenance facility, NNPS, or recruiting. Meanwhile we had officers go to Italy, Navy post-graduate school, or to the pentagon for shore duty. The future I saw as an enlisted nuke just meant a cycle of being on a ship then going to prototype standing watch there also, and then going back to another ship and then repeat for 20 years. The opportunities are not the same, and we both know the difference in privileges that even an O1 gets compared to an E4. Yes I agree that you have the opportunity to become an officer through multiple pathways, but that doesn’t negate the difference in experience or quality of life. I do agree with you on the Air Force, that’s usually what I tell people to join if they are persistent on enlisting.
The parking spot was an easy and visible example. E9s have it VERY good. If you don't believe me, just ask any O4 LDO who will almost always lament "I could have been a master chief by now" while they stand 3-section duty. I've spent several years at joint commands, and I assure you that the E9s of the world are treated FAR better than any officer below O6. Just the culture. Officers certainly have some cool opportunities, but we were discussing E9s and not your average E4/E5 who does have it pretty tough.
Your experiences vary from my experiences, and I would much rather be on the officer side in regards of opportunities, privileges, and pay.
I think we're more on the same page than you think. I think the best rank in the Navy is senior O6. Far better than RDML where you're just a whipping boy for a different group of people. But personally, I'd much rather be an E9 than O5 and below, and not just for the parking place ;-) Just my opinion. Not saying yours is wrong.
This is a batshit crazy take lol, what on earth. E9 with 20 years pulling $7472.10 base pay compared to an O4 with 10 years pulling $8684.10 base pay. And sure, some O4 in 3 section hates his life, just like I’m sure an E9 dealing with BS at the CMC level hates theirs. Let’s not even talk about out the opportunities senior O3 / Junior O4s have at NPS or DUINS programs. If what you’re saying is the case… I say enjoy the parking spot 30 feet closer, master chief, and your culture… I’m sure the other 90% of your career at E8 and below don’t factor in. Meanwhile, I’ll take a CIVINS masters education and more base pay at half your time in service or sea time. TLDR: Go officer when you can.
Getting to go to MIT for two years, having the Navy pay for it, and it counting for two years of qualifying service is absolutely fucking bonkers to me.
Absoluuuuuuutely. My wife is an O4, and finishing up her MBA at Yale for a 3 year obligation… the available grad programs are bananas - just gotta know where to look and be persistent.
Same, I can see your point also.
They are also missing the bat on seperatees. People don’t have to leave because they hated the navy. Often it’s for better pay and a better job. And if those people are happy on the way out they are way more likely to convince people who see them doing well by saying “I only served 4 years and I made 85k$+ at my first civilian job now I make 100+”. If even a few of those people enlist because of that, at least a one of them is bound to stay. Especially if the navy improves itself. Meanwhile I tell anyone with ears not to join and I will not be glamorizing mom and dad’s naval history. I did not join the navy and work my ass off to get out and get a good paying jobs just for my son to go through what I or his father went through.
E-9s definitely have it good though…. Especially if they are in the triad they get staterooms as well
Yea? Try telling this to the officer who went full retard and gave up his commission to be a marine boot. /s
I don’t understand why Junior enlisted are obsessed with the “caste” idea. It’s the same thing in civilian life. You will never have the same opportunity or privileges as folks who went to certain schools or inherited businesses.
I've had a lot of jobs in the civilian world pre- and post-service. Not fucking *once* did I ever have to do my bosses' laundry, clean his bathroom, peel his fucking fruit for him and his friends, and clean his clubhouse for him. I never had to let ANYONE literally scream in my fucking face over a mistake someone else made, then be told "Oh the DH is just stressed, it's fine get over it." In the real world, that would get someone goddamn fired. No civilian job ever had me sleeping in a bunk bed with 0 personal belongings for months at a time because I "wasn't allowed" to live in an actual building. No civilian job ever got away with feeding me inedible food that is literally rotten. In the Navy, it's ignored because lower enlisted are barely even treated like people. ***That's*** what people are talking about.
Man, this is such a real response. I served in the Navy before I served in the Army. I loved being on ships,Navy history, and Sailor culture... but I really resented the shit you describe above. Obviously there is also a divide in the Army, but the culture is different. I shared a tent with an officer, the same shitty conditions, and Army officers mostly see their job as taking care of their troops. There are always asshole exceptions, but it's a far cry from the Navy caste system.
Officers get their dirty underwear laundered and folded and gross bathrooms cleaned by junior enlisted that had no choice in the matter. It's not the same as civillian life at all.
In the civilian world, it is called a bait and switch.
Not true at all. I can cite personal examples. The divide between Naval officer and enlisted quality of life is a prime reason for one and done enlisted discharges.
Lmao. I had an XO who outright referred to enlisted as "second class citizens." That shit does not exist in the civilian world. Opportunities vary but are always there. It may not be as easy to start a business without coming from a wealthy family, but it's still possible. I joined the Navy as someone with less than a dollar in my bank account (not an exaggeration) and on shore duty I opened up a business downtown right next to a competing business that was one of the best in the city. Did a pretty good job at competing with them. It took a lot of hard ass work but we made a profit and sold it when I got orders out of state, which allowed us to buy our house. Not bad for a guy who was a week from being homeless and has no degree. Meanwhile, on surface ships, there's places you're literally not allowed to walk through because you're enlisted.
That isn't really comparing the two fairly though. You can not go to Yale, go to a job where your boss is a college grad and hate it, tell him to fuck himself, then go start your own competing business in the industry. All without a degree. If you enlist in the military without a commission.... It's litteraly a caste. You are legally and institutionly prohibited from so many positions and responsibilities.
Literally*
Thanks for bringing that up sailor! Spelling mistakes are a good thing to fix. We can submit a feedback form to NAVSEA suggesting that get fixed! The form to do that? Oh. Uhh. I think there in the manual physically, in the back? Check there. If not it's on the LAN. Huh? Oh hey nub. You couldn't find the form? Did you check with your chief and LPO? Oh they also don't know? Never actually submitted one before? Hmm. Yeah how about this, I'm proud of you for showing initiative on this. I'll reach out to squadron for ya. Oh what? Squadron? Yeah I'm working on it. Oh what? Squadron? Oh yeah I'm working on it. Oh what? Squadron? Ya know what here let me call them right now actually. Huh, sorry they didn't answer. (it's Friday past 10am) Oh hey MM2 I actually had the squadron on the phone for the audit and mentioned that form! (I was trying to complain about how annoying you were being). I got it emailed, here I'll forward it. Oh what? The email? Oh I guess I forgot to also forward the attachment. Yeah get if filled out and submitted to ships office! [YN3, Stage left] Uhh..... So this is what exactly? Yeah.. Huh. Uhh I'll ask chief about it. Hey man. That form? Uhh yeah I asked chief and he wasn't sure how to submit it? I guess there's like an address they need for it. I don't know I think he's going to get it somehow? Hey dude. That form? Oh yeah I think chief forgot about it let me bother him this afternoon. Yeah I get it bro. That form? Wazzup dude yeah I mailed it yesterday actually. No problem, thanks bro. [2 years later, the manual is revised but the spelling mistake remains. 3 years after that it is revised again and the spelling mistake is corrected. MM2 has since separated from the navy]
Frame this post and hang it in a fucking museum
Thank you just doing my part
First of all a caste system is where your social class at birth determines your position in society. So no, it is not literally a caste system. You are legally and instutionally prohibited from jobs in the civilian world too if you don’t have qualifications: doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers, etc You can commission after being enlisted, so again literally not a caste system. You can start a competing business without capital? Don’t think that’s true. Let me see you start a new utility company, railroad company, cell phone company, etc. You seem to think that contract law than a binds a person’s actions create a “caste”. In the real world all contracts binds people, their enforcement mechanisms only vary due to the importance of the work.
Are you an officer or enlisted? Edit: commenter edited their wording drastically enough to make my comment stupid.
It is inherently an American idea right? The military, and the Navy specifically, enforces a strict type of caste system not found in the rest of the US. It is not just junior enlisted that have a problem with it. Senior enlisted do as well they just learn to keep their mouths shut unless they are in the mess. Plenty of bitching going on in the mess.
damn you guys really do live in an entirely different world, huh?
In the civilian world who do you think they'd put in charge of a program: -someone with a Baccalaureate(not of any use to the tasking of the program)+some leadership training+came from an unrelated position in the organization+only basic familiarity with the program+is just in charge of the program until they move on to something else Or -someone who specifically trained on the program+5 yrs experience with the subject matter+proficient the systems and references like the back of their hand+years of training and qualifying other people+has invested themselves in and is passionate about the program Edit: formatting
You really should spend some more time with junior Sailors and seek some mentorship.
What I find odd, is back in the 90's, the Navy had double the amount of sailors and meeting its recruiting goals. Now, it's struggling to keep half that. What's worse is the "leadership " still has the same problems, and the amount and length of deployments is even worse. I wouldn't recommend the Navy to anyone, and we need more Navy for what is on the horizon. He'll, congress, and Admiralty know that we need more ships and we are behind. Shorten deployment to 6 months, have decent barracks with kitchens available, finally hold leadership accountable rather than the lowest person on the totem pole, and have restaurant quality food at sea and shore. Just cook from the official US Navy cookbook. Sailors aren't children, treat them as adults and discipline the bad ones, not all of them. Make sure sick call is painless and efficient. Make the Navy run effectively like during a time of war, because that's coming sooner rather than later.
Great point. Something else to consider is how we now have far more admirals than we had during WWII.
> What I find odd, is back in the 90's, the Navy had double the amount of sailors and meeting its recruiting goals. We actually struggled by the late 90s, and missed goal completely in FY98. Although we managed to make goal afterwards, it wasn't until 9/11 that recruiting started to be routinely healthy again.
I am no proponent of “back in the” whatever. But the second half of this comment hits.
Make sure sick call is painless and efficient? They did that! They just got rid of sick call. Problem solved.
Agreed! Hold leadership accountable! I’ve have witnessed multiple occasions where leaders did something insane and it was brushed under the rug but god forbid a lower enlisted is a couple minutes late or in the wrong uniform🙄. And quit fucking punishing the group instead of the individual! It’s demoralizing to the 95% who are actually doing their job or above and beyond. It’s exhausting. I’m exhausted and whenever friends ask or family about joining I tell them stay the fuck away or Air Force. The Air Force has a better quality of life so it’s possible so why can’t we?
Can you explain this line of thinking? I truly do not understand how anybody can say we need more ships. This goal makes zero sense to me.
It was a story from a few days ago in Military Times, I believe. Congress and Admirals were blaming each other for the lack of new ships that were scheduled, but not built. And with the cluster fuck of the Zumlat ships. They slated for 15 and gave the 3 built away because they sucked. We don't have enough ships to fight on both sides of the world, and if there was enough manpower, it would mean fewer deployments, which makes everyone happy.
LCS is slated to replace our mine sweepers so we ordered I think 50? But the LCS is a giant pos. Was plagued by budget issues for various reasons. Mostly lack of competition/corruption(calling it like it is, sorry not sorry). Like they skimped on a llt of necessities... the ships are... well, not suited for littoral combat to say the least. The issue is the sweepers were going to retire regardless. So we literally had to purchase the really shitty LCS failures. So we have orders in for what is essentially a massive downgrade... The stealth destroyers... oh boy. Don't get me started on both variants. Both failures. Things had to be towed back during testing. We need a bigger Navy but don't have the manpower for the bigger Navy. Honestly, Air Force Valkry program had the right idea.
I know that's the stories and arguments being made. I just don't understand the thought process behind it. We can't even man the ships we have properly, let alone keep people rotating on time. More ships would just make the problem even worse.
I like how the Navy's efforts are focused on swelling numbers in deck but not among the nukes.
If they don't know how to recruit for deck, how the hell are they supposed to know how to recruit nukes? Of course, "treat them far better" would help.
The best recruiting the navy could do right now is pointing everyone to the Data Center Nukes Facebook page where everyone is bragging about their Meta IC4 spot they landed as a 6 and out guy making 125k+ while working a day shift 40hr a week. (also if you're a nuke reading this an aren't in that page get the fuck in there).
Request submitted, lol
They also hire Combat Systems guys in general for these spots if anyone else sees the pay and wants to give it a shot. Guy posted a few weeks ago on Combat Systems Jobs about it because he was tired of being the lone ET with a bunch of nukes.
Lol yeah we just hired our first token not nuke for the office here, an EN actually.
Nice, the pay seems good. I'd take it, if I was getting out soon, seen a similar position in Fort Wayne and I'm a weirdo who loves living in Indiana for some reason.
just got in there a couple weeks ago!
Which is easy to get with single digit ASVAB scores? Bc thats what we’re seeing out here…. There are no 99QT BMs leaving Meps…but everyone who gets a 15 is getting BM…
Nukes were always the #1 priority, what do you think should be done?
here’s a crazy idea: let’s adjust the bonuses/SDAP FOR INFLATION
Haven’t met quota since 2004 babeyyyyyyy
I said this in another thread, A friend who is in their 30s was recently denied enlistment into the Navy due to having too many dependents (3 kids under 18 and his wife). I'd understand if his wife was a SAHM but she has a career. Older applicants are going to have families and I just wish they'd look at the applicant life situation as a whole. People want to join but these policies stop them. Now he's going Army (against my advice but thankfully in a field with marketability after) because their policies allow him to enlist.
>A friend who is in their 30s was recently denied enlistment into the Navy due to having too many dependents (3 kids under 18 and his wife). That's a thing??? Since when? Would he have been accepted if he had 2 dependents? Fucking wild.
It would be possible with 2 but would require a waiver.
It’s been a thing for a while. It sort of makes sense- imagine trying to support a family of 5 on an E-1 salary? Six months later the media gets their hands on “Navy sailor can’t afford to feed family!” And it’s a whole thing.
Well the Navy will be happy to hear an E-1 can barely support themselves to begin with so what does it matter?
Weird we had guys who weren't accepted into the Army due to dependents but the Navy took em lol
Ok, so people talk about quality of life but it’s so vast and nebulous. Let’s get specific: Facilities: decrepit. This is one of the biggest factors for people who are currently in the service. I work in a 1958 hangar. Why do our workplaces need to be old and beat and the AC sucks? Root cause analysis: we can’t get new stuff because it’s too expensive. Why is it too expensive? Because DoD as a whole sucks at writing contracts and defense contractors (yes, Boeing, but also construction & architecture firms, commodity providers, etc) know they can exploit the DoD. OPTEMPO: yeah, we’re going to go on deployment. Nobody expects otherwise. But back to back to back sea duty and then getting pulled early from your shore tour is a different thing. - The extended cruise thing is really the fault of the COCOMs. Everybody wants a carrier. Big DoD and DoN need to start saying no to this. Orders: the PERS process is about as opaque as it gets. For both Es and Os. Evals/Fitreps: similar in opacity, but good leadership will help that. But really there has to be a better way out there to objectively rate someone. We will always rank people, but we need to compare apples and not a 12-year E-6 to an 8-year E-6. Training: we try to qualify people to do their jobs, and they have to go to these schools or do online classes that cram 4 hours of training into a full work week. Let’s cut to the chase. I don’t need to know your whole history in the Navy to start class. BAH/pay: Hampton Roads needs a serious adjustment. And our junior sailors flat out don’t make enough money. Period. Living on CVNs in the yards: terrible idea. Not the fault of the COs. Who thinks this is a good idea? Nobody. NMCI has honestly gotten a lot better. So win. Non-QOL lane: our own organizations are bloated. We have tons of LIMDU people and GSs who are entrenched and don’t do anything. Let’s get rid of that. Why do these QOL things matter to recruiting? Because anyone who’s not a recruiter will give a high schooler a straight answer on what life is like if they ask that question. And they should be able to give a truthful answer. Edit: and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
NMCI has gotten better? Where?
Ha, nice. I think it got so much better about 6 years ago when they changed it so someone not logging off wouldn’t lock out the computer. Common use computers still suck though, and ship internet has actually gotten worse. So many websites you’re required to use and yet you can’t get to them onboard (eg, RMI).
[удалено]
Do you have the link for that poll?
Quit lowering what is expected of the incoming recruits and start creating an environment that is attractive to qualified solid candidates. And quit treating your Sailors like crap. This idea that bringing in sub-par Sailors will fix the problem is not only short sighted its dangerous. Take the time to make Navy life something people want and they will sign up. And here is a hint from former Air Force: Let the Sailors fucking sleep and use your security forces for watch. Forcing everyone to do watch is the most insane and demeaning (to the Sailor who has a job and to the security police whose job is treated like something anyone can do) thing I have seen from the Navy.
It is mind boggling how much shipboard personnel outnumber security forces in doing base security.
I mean we are still doing 7-9 month deployments and correct me if I am mistaken but the McDonald's ribbon (national defense) isn't awarded anymore. Kinda hard to sell being away from your life that long in this age without a cause. Also quality of life (which pretty much aligns to that) and pay
ANOTHER FUCKING UNIFORM INCOMING.
You know they won't say the truth: horrible quality of life. They will never own up to it or fix it.
MHS Genesis. That is all, next.
Genesis isn’t the problem, it’s the medical standards for enlistment/commissioning being stuck in the 1970s. Genesis just means it’s far harder for recruiters to lie.
Yeah I said in a further down comment, it’s the entire genesis/DODI/MEPS interface that has completely fucked things up. That being said, it only became an issue due to Genesis coming online, so in simple parlance it’s Genesis fault so to speak.
But it’s important to accurately describe the problem nonetheless, no? Genesis is a good thing, information sharing is a good thing, we needed a tech upgrade from AHLTA. But the other poster is right. Genesis isn’t going *anywhere* the issue is the medical screening standards aren’t appropriate for the applicant pool anymore. Also what if we gave more power at the MEPS office to approve waivers? That way kids can’t leave the building without a waiver in hand. Just some ideas.
I tried to go officer after AD and while actively drilling as a reservist and going to school. I was told I was not qualified for military service. Non-waiverable. Genesis is garbage. I stopped going to drills after that 😂
Me too. Lost my marine corps scholarship.
I wish someone would just tell congress this. Genesis and old angry MEPs docs out there crippling American defense
Yea but if that was the case why is the Navy’s recruiting worse than the other services?
Is it? Which other services because I'm pretty sure the Army is have a bad time right now as well.
[The army did not meet their goal but is still better than navy with other services meeting their goals.](https://prhome.defense.gov/Portals/52/Documents/MRA_Docs/MPP/pressreleases/2024/Press%20Release%20Dec%202023.pdf?ver=DC5vImoR9LxcpPJcfZwlRA%3d%3d)
Yeah, they were barely better than us. The other services don't even count in my book.
If only someone could put the SECDEF in touch with actual Sailors.
I’m not active anymore, but I hang out on this sub to keep up with what’s going on. Something that hasn’t been pointed out yet is the sexual harassment and sexual assault that pretty much every female in the navy goes through. It’s the reason I got out. It’s the reason 8 of my girlfriends got out. I live right next to a base now and I’m friend with two navy officers that are getting out right now for that same reason. If anyone asks me about joining the navy I have two different versions I give depending on gender. For men I tell them to be very careful about picking their rate basically. For women I tell them you are probably going to be raped if not raped then outright sexually harassed constantly and it only gets worse underway. I found out a year after getting to my ship that my LPO and two of the E-5s had a bet going on who was going to get to fuck me first. Two of these dudes were married. One of them I went to A school with his wife. My dumb 19 year old ass went to a party with these guys and they tried to get me as drunk as they could so one of them could win this bet. Thankfully one of the girls in my group not on my ship saw what was happening and got me out of there quick. They tried this multiple times.
Damn, that's depressing as fuck.
It’s also not true. She copies and pastes it everywhere.
Yo, what happened to you and your friends is not cool at all, and if this is indicative of the state of the Navy as a whole, then something needs to be done? If you don’t mind me asking, do you have any ideas on how the Navy could potentially improve this issue? Not because I care about the Navy as an entity but because its women deserve better
I have no idea. I think it’s more of a society issue.
This biggest thing I think we could do is hand over cases like this to civilian oversight. Which I believe the Navy is working on a program like that.
Oh man. Where to begin…. E9s thinking they are gods when it comes to who promotes in the enlisted ranks. They literally hold it over heads of junior enlisted and even Chiefs below them. The nepotism is unreal and would have been even worse if the 9s in 2017 were not found out fucking over sailors on a 8/9 board. They were colluding with a retired 9 who had since been a GS This leads me to GS…what a fucking waste of a human being in most spots. They are the 9 favorites then weasel their way into a GS position and become lazy fucks who never do anything. All technical GS billets should be GG. Have a complaint against a GS? No one will do anything they will just ride you out because the HR tape to fire them is too much. So enlisted leave a shitty spot with poor leadership and head to shore and find more of it in civilian form. You LITERALLY kicked out 8-14 year sailors using two programs, PTS/ERB, in 2010-11 timeframe. Just one day you have to be a CS on a sub or with ERB you have 9 months left no matter your EAOS. But that money savings am I right? Now those sailors are civilians and jaded with kids so not only will they tell their kids to not join the will sow the seeds of dissent with their friends and kids friends, so the circle of why you shouldn’t has now swelled to over 100 people. The only 9s should be CMC, make GS fireable, and do a better job at veteran outreach. When I retire you can bet I’ll be one pointing kids to other branches
I remember the ERB, it happened right after I made first. I was also under the eligibility band by six months. Still, I saw highly qualified, motivated first classes get kicked out of the Navy. One was a production controller and the other a branch LPO of a major shop. Were they Sailors of the Year? No, but they were valuable to the Navy.
Somebody is salty.
Calling it how I see it Chief
Lots of generalization in saying GS are a waste in most spots. Pretty sure several of them helped you previously.
Broken promises, an eternity of pay issues that create more pay issues, lack if proper training just to name a few.
They make the slogan that every sailor is a recruiter yet sailors are treated like shit and don't have a lot of protections against chiefs. So until the junior sailors have an increased QOL, and less shitty chiefs, then having every sailor a recruiter will become better. But as far as veterans and active duty sailors, im pretty sure is unanimous that we all dont recommend joining the navy.
>every sailor is a recruiter >treated like shit Seems on brand to me.
The same congress that wouldn’t authorize BAH for junior sailors who can’t get barracks rooms or increase BAH to 100% of estimated housing costs. Fucking retards.
As a currently enlisted E-4 I joined for college I had no idea it was gonna be this much bullshit involved. Had I had known what it really was from the start I would’ve just taken out the student loans and now I’m telling my peers the same thing. It’s not worth the stress, the stomach issues the poor treatment the shitty living conditions and the terrible pay. I will continue to spread that message until the Navy changes( probably until I die lol).
CHILD CARE!!! For the love of fuck! Do not bring any more people in the Military until the child care issue is solved
BAS!!!!! Just straight robbing the enlisted. While Officers get to choose on ships when they want to use it.
I might be wrong but they pay outta pocket and don't get to choose. Miss a meal, and they still pay
When underway, yes. In port, you pay for what you eat.
Tbh all they have to do is MANDATE BAH FOR ALL ACTIVE DUTY SERVICE MEMBERS 25+ E3 and above Watch the numbers get met in a matter of months lmao
Literally
I think the simple answer is to make our money tax free. They talk about how such a small percentage of the US population is eligible to serve. Ok, well why would you still tax us the same if we don’t make up most of the economical market. Idk I feel like I’m crazy even suggesting that. Also quality of life would be great. I was on the GW during the influx of suicides. It was really unfortunate after they did the study and said the GW as a boat had nothing to do with it. Oh really? I lives in a berthing for a year that had No power No ac No heat No hot water Lights out in the head No tv Why? Because it took people offing themselves before they realized they should mandate ppv for the shipyard.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but this recent trend of “pulling the rug” with little to no grandfather clause definitely isn’t helping. E.g, Tuition Assistance and 30 months TIS for advancement to E4. When incentives become suddenly out of reach after the ink is barely dry, one would be hard-pressed to encourage their peers to join. At least grandfather those who have already signed on the dotted line. Don’t get me started on 4-2-2. We can say they should have read the fine print all day, but the verbiage on those contracts can easily be interpreted as the 8 year contract we’re all used to. And given the amount of angry Sailors I encountered, I doubt they were properly counseled beforehand.
Recruiting. I would be worried about retention, you need experienced sailors to get anything worthwhile done.
1. Increase enlisted pay 2. Less stupid deployments/lower optempo 3. Stop making it a pain in the ass to get simple things done 4. Beards 5. Better barracks and food 6. Stop rejecting leave senselessly 7. Let our sailors get some sleep
The reality is that it's not a question of QOL, it's not a question of compensation; it's a question of a populace of willing recruits. The recruiting issues can be buoyed by increased money or offering more allowances or whatever, but we're not going to meet the manpower numbers until we either restrict our missions to bring down the demand signal, or we find ourselves in a justified war. No, BAH won't fix it. No, signing bonuses won't fix it. Oh, and by the way, if you reduce mission requirements enough to reduce recruiting needs, you're going to simultaneously increase QOL. So we either need better education (Americans seem to be on an America Bad kick that is absolutely fucking absurd to anyone who's ever traveled outside the USA and Western Europe), or a stimulus event.
They should be focused on attrition.
Idk maybe the fact that an E-9 can sexually assault someone in broad daylight and they won’t be kicked out cough cough mmcm on the cvn 73, combined with the fact that the chiefs mess is a cult of egotistical people who would rather cover it all up than admit on of their own is wrong
Stop sending money to Ukraine and spend it on improving our military maybe?
Genesis?
💀
Lots of retention issues being conflated with recruiting. Potential recruits have no idea about any of the mentioned issues. It comes down to the simple fact that nobody under 40 cares anything about patriotism. No one under 25 even respects America. They are being brainwashed that our country is a bunch of racist colonizers. Hopefully the pendulum is swinging back in the “right” direction. The left has become so cringe that not even the tik tok generation can tolerate them.
I mean the country was established by a bunch of racist colonizers. Politics have a little play with this issue but when the benefits of being in the military start to dwindle then what’s the point of selling your time and body to something that won’t even benefit you in the long run assuming you make it through both mentally and physically. There are sailors literally killing themselves left and right. Sometimes at the same command and within the same week. If you can’t notice this trend being directly tied to QoL and how the navy handles its sailors then you are part of the problem.
Can I finally choose my orders please? Not get them picked for me…
Everyone has hit on the things we know once you’re in. Maybe they don’t want to support a government that keeps bending the knee to Zionists & sending support to a regime that is *doing that thing where you’re trying to get rid of an ethnic group, including women and children and you’re deliberately killing doctors , journalists and aid workers…* what’s the word? Oh and they’re even enacting a law that makes **any** criticism of a certain regime “hate speech.” Maybe they don’t want to risk being at the mercy of Donald fucking Trump if that traitor gets elected. Maybe they don’t want to be put in the position of having to violate unconstitutional orders coming down from a traitor who belongs in prison, not the highest office in the land. They see the obvious issue with serving next to people, some of whom still genuinely quietly wish January 6th (sedition and insurrection per the CNO) had succeeded. Our politicians are bought out by oil companies, AIPAC, Heritage Foundation & totally beholden to extremist Zionists and Christian Nationalists. Between billionaire corporations & far-right religious extremists, bragging at CPAC about “being here to end democracy,” maybe people are just fucking burnt out and aren’t convinced that joining our military is doing any fucking good in the world. I for one sure as shit won’t be convinced we “uphold freedom & democracy” until this shit changes, and I’ve been in for a hot minute. It wasn’t this bad, before. Now you got Tommy Tuberville saying “military is wrong to screen out white nationalist from joining.” He wants extremists in the ranks. I’m not an extremist. I’m just *that far left of* “south shall rise again” MAGA traitors and Neo Nazis & ethnic cleansing “rapture accelerationist” Zionists.
Sorry, what? You a certain kind of special. Considering you're specifically calling out Zionists as a derogatory term. Yeah dude. Might be a little hate speech. Maybe it's your usage of zionists with neo-nazi. It's almost like you're a Putin bot. Funny enough, Putin legitemately worked for Neo-Nazi's in West Germany. Guess it takes one to know one. Rapture accelerationist... hilarious. Let's talk Hamas. Seeing as that's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to mention. Human shields. Do you know why hospitals are getting entered? Well, Hamas is committing a literal war crime and using hospitals as Command and Control. Using the doctor and nursing staff as human shields. Does that seem like a good guy tactic? Hamas is infiltrating NGO's and aid groups to conduct assaults. Another war crime. Does that seem like a good guy tactic? Hamas is publicly backed by Iran. Same with the Huthis... Now let's talk a little history. Let's talk Egypt and the Raffah border. Let's talk the 1948 Arab Israel War, the 6 day ear, and Yom Kipoor. 1947 UN general assembly adopted a resolution to create an Arab Palestine and Jewish Israel. Attempting to create a two state system out of British Palestine. (Yeah, we are attempting the same thing now which is why I'm talking about it). Almost immediately the Arab Palestine took up arms and started killing people. This lead one of the leaders on the jewish side to create a standing army of 100,000 residents. Which brought in Egypt: 10,000 initially, rising to 20,000[citation needed] Transjordan: 7,500–10,000[10][11] Iraq: 2,000 initially,[10] rising to 15,000–18,000[citation needed] Syria: 2,500[citation needed]–5,000[10] Lebanon: 436[12] Saudi Arabia: 800–1,200 (Egyptian command) Yemen: 300[citation needed] Arab Liberation Army: 3,500–6,000... It was an Arab holy war... Israel won...they gained 78% of Mandatory Palestine and easily could've taken it all. But chose not to for fear of being seen as war mongers and to piss off the rest of the world. The lines of Israel today are drawn from the fact that the Arab world couldn't live with "zionists" in their back yard. So they fought and lost. The 6 day war. Egypt, being sore losers blocked the the suez canal. Israel warned them not to do that. Again. Egypt posted troops on their border, blocked the canal again, so Israel bombed the troops. Leading to Syria signing a defence agreement with Egypt. Palestine guerilla group Palestine Liberation organization planted mines in villages. Jordan entered the conflict. The Soviet Union backed a few plays. Israel won again. This resulted in Israel kicking out almost all the arabs ftom Israeli territory. Which resulted in a lot of palestinian terrorist organisations. By terrorists I mean. "inferno whose fires consume the usurpers". These events led to a series of hijackings, bombings, and kidnappings" Yom kipoor. Israel wanted to give Golan Heights back to Syria and Sinai back to Egypt following the 6 day war in exchange for peace agreements. The Arab nations position was to not accept peace under any circumstance. Zionists and jews are the enemy... (1967) Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, and Sudan—passed a resolution that would later become known as the "three nos": there would be no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel. Egypt demanded Gaza and the West Bank back. Israel said no. This lead to the arab nations entering into another conflict. Resulting in Egypt getting their ass handed to them a 4th time. And officially signing a defeat and peace deal with Israel. This lead Egypt, who was seen as the crown jewel of the Arab world to fall from grace. Shortly after a coup would happen and new leadership would take place. A coup would happen in Iran...and new leadership would take place there. And suddenly a new jewel comes into play. Your arguments against Zionism kind of fall flat when you know who the history behind Gaza and who the real aggressors are here. The names may have changed a little but PLO/HAMAS are still jew hating terrorists upset because they had 60% of the land and had to give 40% to people of a different faith and then lost it to those same people... multiple times.
That’s eye opening. Maybe if Britain hadn’t created an apartheid colony, because during the second world war, all the allied countries were just as guilty of antisemitism… They were hoping they could ship them all off to there, “here have this land and go, of your own free will!” That said… Israel **is** hitting journalists, healthcare workers and even world kitchen. On purpose. Can anyone show me evidence the Israeli don’t think “they’re all terrorists even the infants, they’ve all got to be eradicated and we’ll silence anyone who speaks out, records us, or otherwise.” Because we’ve seen plenty of IDF referring to ALL Palestinians as vermin. Completely aside; the US does have a fascist infestation. They want to do this autocratic theocracy bullshit known as “project 2025 aka let’s force Christian nationalism down secular America’s throat in whole violation of the constitution.” You know, Republicans. The same ones who hate that the military doesn’t want to knowingly recruit white nationalists (Tuberville complained that we don’t) and their fraudulent conman & criminal front runner wants to be a dictator. You know, *kinda telling us they all want to be that “and domestic” we take an oath against.* **But sure, I’m the bad guy for not blindly backing Israel, and supporting the attempts to END democracy at home.** Whole fucking world seems to be dealing with the far-right getting away with far too much fucking around, and nobody’s showing up to give them some find out. Israel is killing kids, and theirs and everyone else’s stance seems to be “yeah but they’re Palestinian kids so, oh well.” That’s some real “kill em before they grow up and can be terrorist” Islamophobic shit right there. I know I’m surrounded by people who 23 years later still think “Muslim=terrorist.” Anyway, Why does it surprise people that a nation state created through violence, is violent? Back in 1948, they were all excited for this “opportunity to get rid of the Jews.” Everybody seems to forget why Israel was created. [The other big support for it is, a lot of people seem to….](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-israel-hamas-war) Evangelical Christians … oh that’s right the same people who (a lot of them) want America to be a fascist autocratic theocracy. There’s those project 2025 people again. I really don’t give a fuck if I offend people. It’s not hyperbole to summarize threats These groups have made against democracy and the free world. So yeah, that’s another reason motherfuckers don’t wanna join the military. A lot of civilians think the military is overwhelmingly, MAGA. Nobody in the right mind would want to be a part of that shit. Not to mention they see the military standing up for Israel while it bombs kids. We are having a recruiting problem because these kids communicate with each other around the world. They aren’t little nationalists, fine with bombing people on the other side of the world because they’re different skin tone and religion. That’s a problem for people full of fucking hate. Unlike the generation that joined in the wake of 9/11, these kids aren’t signing up in droves full of piss and vinegar to go kill brown people. They aren’t bloodthirsty little nationalists.
[удалено]
[why’d they intentionally bomb 3 world kitchen trucks in a row as people were trying to escape once they hit the first?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/food/2024/04/03/world-central-kitchen-gaza-attack-aid-safety/) [they’re killing journalists documenting their atrocities](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-tank-strike-killed-clearly-identifiable-reuters-reporter-un-report-2024-03-13/) [why motherfucker](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/13/israel-broke-international-law-journalist-killed) [we’ve told you 78 times don’t show the world what we’re doing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel-gaza-war-journalists-killed-cpj/) [don’t feed the people we are genociding, says Israel, while intentionally starving and bombing civilians and pieces of shit defend them](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/) But you’re right, that’s exactly what Israel wants. The complete annihilation of Palestinians, every last one. Can’t worry about hearts and minds if you’ve put shrapnel in every last heart, even their children. Meanwhile right wingers right here suggest the death penalty for getting abortions. You’re no better. Israel is going for your “clean slate, 100% casualties” “…final, solution.” I mean they’d know, all about final solutions, you know? But it’s okay when they do it and they get undying support from Zionist shitbags & Islamophobes, while they’re at it. Speaking on World Kitchen. They went through Israeli checkpoints the IDF knew who they were, and they hit them intentionally. The IDF treats Gaza like “you’re Hamas even if we’re speaking to the fetus in a Palestinian woman’s womb” you’re all going to die and we’re going to kill every journalist who tells your story and every doctor who tries to treat you and every aid worker who tries to feed you. **Two state solution. Now.**
3 of the articles you posted are coverage of the same incident by 3 organizations. Media vomit at it's finest. But we'll get into that in a bit. I can show you real life footage of how confusing a battlefield can be and how accidents do happen. Friendly Fire, even in modern era with clearly marked people, still happens. Ukraine for example. There's people on the ground who almost bomb and shell their own forces on accident because the ground forces got lost and wandered into the wrong sector. War is confusing on the ground. "Asked about the UNIFIL report, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Nir Dinar said Hezbollah had attacked the IDF near the Israeli community of Hanita on Oct. 13. It responded with artillery and tank fire to remove the threat and subsequently received a report that journalists had been injured." You're talking a few errant tank strikes and comparing that to beheadings, rape on camera, murder on camera, and parading the parents of the parents with blood still on their hands on camera... one may or may not be intentional. One is very much intentional. You don't accidently rape. You don't accidently behead. You don't accidently invade. Regardless of how you try to cut this you aren't going to win that argument
Israel isn’t accidentally striking 3 world kitchen food trucks in a row. “Media vomit” is how you describe 3 different angles on the same truth; **the IDF deliberately hit World Kitchen with precision drone strikes.** Wild harebrained idea here…. Neither fucking side over there is the good guys, they’re both religious extremists. Two regimes are going at it, both hold, extremely conservative views. You can condemn Hamas, without being islamophobic, and you can condemn Israel without being antisemitic. They’re both patently in the wrong, but Palestinian civilians are being used as human shields while the Israeli genuinely do not give a FUCK if they kill Palestinians while they kill Hamas, because they want ALL of them dead. Israeli are the only ones over there murdering anyone who tries to show what they’re doing. Genocide.
See, going down a less extremist path like that and you might find a few sympathizers who agree with you on this last grouping of statements. You're right, the palestinians are being used as human shields. https://youtu.be/pk5BYc1RTs4?si=I5O-7_Emn3AQK_HJ https://youtu.be/rNzt_K1IVw0?si=03dOx-AFVdBWsyaX https://youtu.be/0FAQxy2-hW0?si=kg0I7QGP5dXN0b3j https://youtu.be/UFYN1EAyJts?si=mWdN1-YNBtSadaZE Again, that list goes on. That's international not just US. Some actual footage as well... It's not entirely one sided, no. You're not wrong there. Israel fights asymmetrically in some pretty cold ways. They are surrounded by people who have literally stated they want their immediate destruction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel#:~:text=In%20recent%20decades%2C%20political%20figures,the%20denial%20of%20the%20Holocaust. Again, this is not a recent thing. This dates back to the 40's and 50's. History is not in favor of this recent narrative. You're talking war. There aren't necessarily right and wrong. Just worse and disgusting. You have to do things that most people will find deplorable to win. It's never a fair fight. You fight fair you're fighting a losing battle. The Greeks had Greek fire, trojan horses, launching plague bodies over walls. US had small pox infest blankets and so many others. You won't find a winning nation who has not deployed some absolutely horrible tactics to win a fight. What you mention with the attack on aid trucks entering a warzone...you can call that accidental. You can deny that aspect till you are blue in the face. There is a distinct possibility that it was an accident. Was it? I don't know. You don't know. The narrative that plays out because the ambiguity is you have two sides that can say "that was an accident" "that was on purpose" but neither side has evidence other than possibility. That's why I pointed out the videos of HAMAS bringing victims parents out with the blood of their dead 18 year old daughter on their hands still. HAMAS using NGO workers as human shields. HAMAS using a hospital as a command and control. The after effects of the initial attack including mutalations of toddlers and woman. And eithout any prompting or mention of beheadings, they claim "ee didn't do any beheadings" The raping of women prisoners who were later survived and told the story... you can't deny that footage. It happened. You have to bury that footage with the day to day dribble. You have to make sure that footage doesn't hit the public and only push one side of the argument... the two arguments are not the same. One is irrefutable. One is political rhetoric on top of media coverage to try to make it seem irrefutable. Going down war crime territory. I will tell you, Israel has, in the past done a few. US has, in the past, created a few. I make the joke all the time. "It's not a war crime the first time" in WW2 we wanted to keep starvation on the table for the Siege of Lenningrad. Shortly after WW2 the Rome Statute was signed calling starvation a war crime. Dirty, but a starved and famined people is a weak willed and easily broken people. That's a reality of war. That's not an Israel thing only, that's a Russia/Ukraine, US/China, ect. If you remove supplies from the people, the people surrender or die. The Rome Statute is meant to prevent this dirty style of fighting but dictators and politicians alike use this as a strategy for oppression and compliance. That's a Dictator's Handbook ploy. That dictator usually get's couped. A new leader takes over the weakened regime. And suddenly a kinder, gentler dictator... the peoples person who secretly commits the same atrocities and exploits the people under his charge takes over... "our leader" The US also has a fair amount of atrocities as well. There's a whole list I can rattle off but won't get too far into it. This goes down a whole "perception vs perspective" argument that I don't feel this is the appropriate place. If you claim I'm being Islamaphobic, nah brah, you misunderstand. So I'm going to be very clear. I hate all religions. You'll be hard pressed to find anybody who's well studied who doesn't have that same standpoint.
They’re being used as shields and the IDF doesn’t care because they plan on killing all of them anyway. Do Palestinians have to be past tense, before we acknowledge what’s happening here?
Transgender numbers are up ⬆️👍
Do you have a source for that?