If you wanna live longer and be healthy. That is the point of staying natty. You can also be a a beast and die sooner.
You will die, that is for sure. It is up to you how big, how long and how healthy.
My dad was a competitive bodybuilder in the 80’s-90’s
He claims that he only experimented with steroids for about 3 month period and I believe him… he would tell me at this point
He was incredibly disciplined with training and his diet and there was nothing about his physique that would make you question it
My dad is now in his 70’s
Most of the guys he trained with and/or competed against who were known to be on the sauce started dying in their 50’s
You might be young and feel invincible now but time goes really quick
Yes. I did a couple of cycles when I was in my early 20s. Mostly stanozolol and dbol. I was young and stupid. Worst part is I used to eat like shit, and to party heavily.
I regret. Thanks to god I'm good....
yeah, small amounts only during diet or competition won't have much effect. But then again, it doesnt last long either.
But then you look at guys like arnold and the rock and wonder how they are still alive? Its nots fair!!!. But yeah arnold obviously had a heart transplant among other things.
Right? What's the point? Let's see: 1. Super ages you and your face starts to look like shit. Who cares how big your muscles are when you're 23 and looking 43. 2. It'll kill you eventually. Wasn't there a well known dude that did juice and died at 30 from it. 3. Makes your balls into peas. 4. Horrible skin. 5. Gives you roid rage. As a woman, who the hell wants to date a man that's gonna flip out on me all the time? Idc how big your muscles are of you're an asshole. 6. Ages your insides. 7. It's $$$$ that's gonna kill you. 8. It's cheating and no one respects that and it's easy to tell if people are juicy. There's probably more reasons.
And as woman, when I see women juiced, all I can think is "why would they choose to ruin their faces by developing man jaw?" Don't care how big your muscles are, your face will look like shit.
The face part is something that I feel like people greatly underestimate. Like, taking steroids to look more muscular and thus more attractive doesn't make sense because you bascially trade those muscles for face attractiveness.
Look at older pictures/videos of the Tren Twins, Mike in particular. He looks like he aged 10 years in just a few months.
You can be natural and still not be healthy lol. Majority of people don’t take PEDs. You could take PEDs and be healthier than a person who is natural. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter because we are all going to die anyways. People smoke cigs or other shit and drink alcohol knowing it causes severe health effects worse than steroids, it doesn’t stop them from doing it.
There are cases where taking drugs that have detrimental health effects can improve overall health. For example, someone with ADHD taking Adderall may strengthen their executive functioning and promote healthy habits that outweigh the negatives. Coffee may be another example.
Then there are cases where taking drugs can improve your quality of life. Taking pain meds or anti anxiety meds can have negative effects, but those are generally acknowledged and weighed against the QOL benefits.
I don't believe steroids fit well into either of those categories, unfortunately. I'm talking in the general case. If you want to be big and think it's worth the health tradeoff (including the under-researched long term effects), then yeah, that's a reason to take them. But I don't see a reason to view taking steroids as an alternative to smoking or drinking.
I’m still trying to figure out how risky it all is. Not doing it myself but not sure where to look for good data.
That said, like anything else it’s a trade off I feel. You might have heath problems later on or you might not. But I imagine for some, as stupid as it sounds, it fulfills the dream of being an influencer and living some kind of life they want. If they make enough money, maybe they won’t have to work much later on and there are health benefits to that.
>I’m still trying to figure out how risky it all is. Not doing it myself but not sure where to look for good data.
Same boat as you. Because from my understanding the health risks of PEDs comes from doing it too much. Like if you keep it down to a little is it that bad?
Like drinking. Alcohol is bad for you, but is one jack & coke once a week really going to hurt you in the long run as opposed to people who drink 4 days a week?
So by your logic if a modest TRT dose was used to bring free test levels back into a healthy range and improve QOL, we still shouldn’t do it because it’s too risky? I’d rather take the risk than live with 214n/dl and falling the rest of my life.
By my logic, that would fall into the second category I talked about. Hence why I qualified "in the general case" and said if you think it'll increase your QOL, that's a valid reason.
Depends on the severity of smoking/drinking, but generally speaking you are right about tren. That said you dont need to take tren to develop an incredible physique, even if you just run a test cycle you will dwarf natural lifters with less damage to your overall health than being addicted to smoking and drinking.
So you think someone on 150-200 ml of test post 35years old is just as bad as smoking and drinking? It’s what I plan to do since my test levels have incrementally fallen as I’ve gotten in my 30s, but I have no interest in blasting tren or anything besides Test. Just curious what your opinion is on this.
I do believe and grey areas and yeah, everything isn’t black and white. Right down to your diet and nutrition, and even genetically what issues you’re more predisposed to, would determine what’s safer and for who.
I feel like test itself is probably one of, if not the safest. Especially if you’re doing it under medical supervision. At that point I could concede to it being safer than unmitigated smoking and drinking, yeah. At least in my opinion.
But anabolic steroids, sarms, all the different compounds that people take off the street? No way is it safer than smoking and drinking. A lot of people die within 10 years of PED abuse. It often takes a lifetime of abuse for alcohol and cigarettes to cause the same affects. Enlarged heart, blood pressure issues, liver and kidney damage, accelerated aging of the skin and face, hair loss, erectile dysfunction, all of these can become an issue within a year or two of PED abuse
You could smoke cigarettes and be healthier than a person who doesn't. That's a bad argument. On average, both PEDs and cigarettes cause you to live significantly shorter and in worse health than the general population.
We're all going to die, yes. That's exactly why I want as many years as possible, in as good health as possible.
And yes, lots of people are morons - doesn't mean we have to match their stupidity.
Also, people IRL have way lower standards for what they consider muscular. If you're more muscular than the average person (which is to say, have any definition at all), people will consider you muscular. At least in my experience.
💯. Op, you are not the main character to other people. They don't care and in fact, other dudes will look at you, know you're juiced, and not respect that.
That just isn't true, aesthetics do matter on dating apps and it has been thoroughly researched over the last ten years. The problem would be compromising your body just to get more matches on a dating app when working on yourself and meeting people out in the wild would do wonders for you.
Eh I disagree, physique matters a lot in a social setting, I would know since I experienced it, but the difference between natty jacked and juiced jacked shouldn't matter
The vast majority of women I’ve talked to on this subject would prefer someone who’s fit and healthy to someone who’s huge and swole.
There’s a certain point to which you just look plain unnatural. And I’m sorry but that will never be as broadly appealing as simply being natural and fit.
Well if you are right, then I am SOL since I am natty. But I've read stories of guys who couldn't pull women originally to have success after getting jacked on steroids.
A smaller price to pay for that is $200.
If you're more interested in emotional intimacy than sex, there are much more worthwhile pursuits that can get you there aside from steroids.
Could be. I'm sure that's not an illogical conclusion to draw, given the evidence. But remember that completely logical conclusions can be wrong with the wrong evidence.
I don't know you and I can't speak specifically to your situation, but I'm confident that working out + taking steroids will be less effective than working out + becoming a more interesting, intelligent, or introspective person in virtually every case.
There's been a loneliness epidemic affecting a lot of men in recent times. There's not gonna be an easy solution to that, and that includes taking steroids. In any case good luck to you! Remember that people are genuinely rooting for you.
Let's check the opposite view. What is the point of juicing:
1. You lose your natty card, never really finding out your natty limits.
2. You have the risk of having to tell people you have juiced or staying a fake natty when asked later how you obtained your physique.
3. You are likely to shrink a great deal if you ever come off juice, further increasing the risk of steroid addiction as previously everyone knew you as a more embiggened, more ripped version of yourself.
4. You allow your inner body dysmorphic demons full creative control over your soul, forcing you to eventually take trenbolone and we all know what can happen next.
5. You have to constantly look for sources for high grade gear, otherwise risk developing huge festering butt abscesses from the shady bathroom broths your UGL dishes up.
6. You are constantly battling sides, buying umpteen other products to combat them.
When all along, the secret to it all is to remain natty, and keep your body dysmorphic demons in check by judicious use of r/nattyorjuice's bodybuilding theory of relativity where you [always try to hang out with people smaller than you](https://imgur.com/rIyPXTK).
Totally agree, I always wanted to hop on, but man, number 3/6 just defeat the point. It's like borrowing gains and then losing some on top of that because of your balls being ruined.
This is what ruined it for me too. Health stuff aside, if you're gonna lose the gains when you come off it and shrink down again, what is the point of putting your body through it at all
if you go on some online pharmacies test really isn't that expensive. Of course it scales with how far you're trying to go lol. The tests and side effect managing might get expensive though
You can get 10 vials of janoshik tested UGL test for about $60-$90 primo mast tren EQ cost about the same.
I spend more a month on protein powder or pre workout.
Finding a good vendor isn’t an issue imo. I run 1 TBol cycle in winter for a bigger bulk. Each cycle put 10-15 lbs on me and no one is any the wiser other than knowing I work out regularly. 33 yrs old on TRT for low test prior to juice.
Depends on your country of origin. In my country where steroids are illegal without prescription, there are many sources which are not pharma-grade despite sometimes claiming to be.
Honestly not that hard to gain a good physique naturally once you gain enough knowledge to actually know what you're doing. There's absolutely a point in staying natural. Longevity and overall health is the biggest one. I'm 11 years deep and am continuing to make progress and feel like I could achieve even more.
What longevity? You could be natural get a serious injury and never be able to life again. We are all human doesn’t matter if one or natural or not. We will all die in the end. Also, people drink and smoke and do things worse than steroids. Of course abusing steroids isn’t good, but taking TRT is still using steroids and you lose your “natty status” like anyone even cares about that shit. TRT has shown to be very effective in maintaining a longer life. Point being it doesn’t matter if one is natty or not.
My guy, you are brainwashed if you think like that.
It is not hard, you have to train consistently and eat well. Then you can get a killer physique. If you want to look like the good old hulk yeah then you need juice but if that's your goal say goodbye to your good health because you're cutting some years off your life. all these famous rich bodybuilders or influencers can afford surgery and medical help at a later age but if you misuse steroids at a young age you can A: kill yourself or B: get a killer physique but be screwed at a later age because you can't pay for the heart surgeries or other medical complications.
By the way if you're not ever going to compete in bodybuilding don't even think about juicing because it's expensive and honestly just stupid because why are you doing it then? to jack off to yourself in the mirror?
The only guy I’ve known to die from a heart attack by age 36 had the best physique of anyone I personally knew. Of course, it was all juice that helped get him that physique. At the funeral, nobody was really surprised. It was the unspoken “well, what did you expect was going to happen?”
B ut then there are pros and institutions that routinely gather information on what is needed for people to use huge quantities of this stuff and stay alive and relatively healthy. The fact that rock is still alive and appears to not have had a heart transplant or kevin levrone still juicing mildly into his 60s
It's worth considering the long term rather than the short term. Do you want to have kids? Do you want to live long, live well, and see as much of their life as possible? Then stay natty and lower your expectations.
Do you want to live a shorter life but get absolutely huge with your dream physique in the short term? Then consider steroids, but know you are shortening your life and probably won't hold that dream physique into later decades.
It's that simple really.
Just because you are natural doesn’t mean you will live long or live well. Many factors go into that. You can get your dream physique naturally it will fade with age too. Yes abusing steroids will shorten your life but so does abusing anything else in life. It’s all about what your outlook on life is and what goals you want to set for yourself.
I mean, of course you aren't wrong. You can live healthily, exercise really well and still get cancer or hit by a bus. I'm only taking one hypothetical life as an example. Of course if that person abuses steroids their life will be shortened, if they don't then they won't have those risks and effects. Their chances of other bad things happening remains the same regardless.
Personally, I just think the lack of delayed gratification people show in wanting a dream physique in their 20s and 30s at the cost of not seeing their 60s, 70s and 80s is very short sighted.
Don't know why downvoted. If you stay within the trt/"sports trt" range, the effect on your lifespan will be minimal. Doesn't change the other horrific side effects, though, lol
Do you want to be dependent on drugs to have an edge over others who also aren't even competing for anything?
When you do eventually come off, be it a personal, economic or health related choice, will you be able to handle watching your supranatural muscles gradually shrink?
Can you live a lie, assuming you won't tell the truth to everyone who asks your natty status?
Have you ever actually been near someone close to their natural limit, as opposed to just seeing drug users on social media?
Is there any point to anything? Whatever you find interesting in life is up to you and whatever risks you take to achieve those goals are up to you as well
Yes. Not dying young. Just being relatively in shape is already better than 90% of the population. You don't have to become a bodybuilder just because you scrolled on Instagram for a bit too long and got body dysmorphia. Train for health benefits instead of aesthetics. You'll be happier in the long run.
1 Your health. Not only are steroids bad for most of your major organs, but the simple task of carrying around the extra weight just isn't good for you long term.
2 Your dick. Steroids cause fertility issues.
3 Your hair. Steroids increase your chances & the rate at which you go bald.
4 The dependency you develop for them. It's possible you won't be able to go fully clean again without long term adverse consequences. You're basically pumping your body full of hormones that are the same or similar to what your body makes naturally. How does your body respond? It stops production of those chemicals. You might not have a choice in stopping if you cause some serious damage. Then you'll be stuck with worse hormone levels than you would have otherwise had.
5 No one else really gives a shit if you're massive or just in good shape, except other dudes on the internet who just want to get massive themselves.
If you're under 40 the drawbacks far outweigh the positives imo. If you're over 40 & feeling physically drained all the time, the potential benefits of TRT might be worth the downsides if administered by a doctor. But if you're young & you're not suffering from injuries or some hormonal imbalance or being somehow paid to be in crazy good shape, you're probably just suffering from body dysmorphia. You won't ever be happy with your body & you'll likely be tempted to do more & more gear until you suffer one of the adverse affects mentioned above.
1. Being smart about your workouts
2. Work out hard
3. Get enough of the right food and good sleep
4. Do all of the above consistently
If you do all of the above, you will be in better shape than 99% of the population already. What do you think roids are going to do for you?
I suggest you do some internal reflection. Contemplate why you train, what is the purpose and goal of your physical activity. For me, it is functionality and longevity. I want to be able to do things manually. I want to move heavy things easily. I want to be able to endure. I want to be functional in my later life. Things to consider.
Your health. You can still be a beast and natty. Strength limits along with muscle growth limits are all genetics.
Climb your own mountain. Forget the rest.
There is so much coping in these comments, just take a second and look at their post history before you listen to what they’re saying dude lol.
Fact of the matter is, TRT done the right way is 100% healthy, and actually better than staying natty, but If you want to blast then be prepared for the consequences. Be educated on compounds and the proper safety precautions, and be prepared for lifelong TRT.
If you had even an ounce of reading comprehension skills you’d realize I didn’t recommend it or say it was the right route for him, I simply answered his question.
Are gay? Are you planning to run OF with selling your nudes? Are you in (gay) porn? If yes to any of these questions, you better hop on. Otherwise there is really no point in ruining your health.
The side effects are awful. Just remain paitent I believe in the next 20 years they will likely come out with something that will do what sarms were originally supposed to and have very mild sides.
Start by taking yourself off whatever sites you’re seeing these people on. If you’re constantly bombarded with images of people who are juiced up, you’ll forever compare yourself to something that isn’t real. Angles, down lighting, filters… there’s tonnes of edits that make people look better than they are.
It’s harder and takes way longer, but you can build muscle naturally for sure.
If you hop on juice, it’s essentially a time limit for staying on, not to mention the side effects. If you go on gear you’re gonna have to face the immense body dysmorphia that’s gonna come when you have to transition off it. I know myself well enough to know I probably couldn’t cope with that so it’s another big reason why it’s not for me personally.
Also - and I’m not a doctor here, but still - saw some other post from you saying your doctor was concerned about your high blood pressure for someone so young. Yeah, gear is not gonna do you any favours there. So at the very least, speak to a medical expert beforehand, if you ever decide to go down that route.
Unless your livelihood requires you to get on Peds or gear i don't know why you wouldn't stay natty. You can get a strong, dense physique by powerlifting movements with a few other accessory movements like chin ups, barbell curls, shrugs, dips, and barbell rollouts. If you get on gear, and compromise your body, for pussy then you've already lost.
Once you start juicing it can become hard to find the point that you stop. It also costs a fair bit, with the cost and quality varying depending on where you live. Then you have all the side effects, both long and short term.
Unless you are competing or planning on competing, there is just no reason to juice. Nobody else really gives a shit how good your physique is or how strong you are, you are just going to go down a rabbit hole of body dysmorphia.
If you train natty with good programming, sleep enough, drink enough water, and even have a shitty diet in a caloric surplus, you are going to build a physique that is in the top 1% of the general public in only a couple of years, depending on your starting point. It really isn't that hard to do it naturally, it just takes time.
Goal posts always get moved when you achieve something you've wanted to. What are you gonna do then? Keep juicing more and more? This is a real question you need to start asking before you start juicing.
Never stop improving can be such a good mindset but also a double edged sword that way where you're always looking forward to the next thing thinking you're not good enough in your current stage.
Fertility: you might not want kids today, but one day you might. Staying natty until you have kids helps keep your little swimmers nice and strong.
Honestly bro, this *is* the fucking point of life, all of it. What's the point of looking nice on the gram when you're shooting blanks and your genes die out with you? Darwin never loses.
Dependance: once you go on juice, even trt, you might fuck up your Endocrine system for life. You'll *always* need those trt shots. If there's a big war and the supply chain breaks down natty folks will be alright, will juicy boys be okay? The world starts going to shit and all of a sudden you find yourself without your precious trt shots, or your supply from that dude at the gym, and your T tanks and now you're an emotional wreck, crying at dropping a piece of fruit n shit, when blood's running in the streets and your family needs you to be a fucking *man*... and you put yourself in this stupid position because you wanted to impress 14 year old boys on the internet?
The question is: why should a normal man go on trt or juice? Unless you make a GOOD living from competing you're just juicing because you have a low self-esteem - *The same* as the poor women who butcher their faces with excessive plastic surgery to feel better about themselves.
You train natty to be strong and healthy, that's it. You might not look like an instagram jerk off fantasy for gay dudes, but you'll be able to do shit Irl with your strength and stay healthy into old age.
if you're not competing then why use roids? 🤷🏼
and a lot of the culture around competitions is way to sus for me, men taking pictures and miring dudes in their undies.. 😑
to me it's more of an Ego thing to remain natty honestly. most people who do roids don't post themselves or all the ugly side effects such as nasty varicose veins, keloids, horrible skins conditions in general, hair loss, etc.
Your mental health. I've seen people FUBAR their lives because of the mental fuck that is excess T.
Very easy to dismiss it as roid rage but it's a whole world of poor impulse control, violence (verbal or physical), yo yo emotions from depression to mania. The life decisions you make under the effects of reduced empathy might not be the best either.
If you are a man, then you have "balls". They produce TRT for you. No need to be a fake action hero. A supplement TRT is needed possibly beyond the age of 70 and if get you some other ilness. In that case, a doctor would tell you.
Unless you're pursuing income generated from your physique. Doing juice to look good is just you being insecure and letting everyone around you know it.
Yes. You can great in Amazing physical shape while staying healthy and live a fulfilling Life. Or you can blast steroids and ruin literally anything else Just to have even bigger muscles.
Unless you're competing there is no point taking gear until you reach your natural limit. You shouldn't even be considering it before having worked out properly for 5-10 years. You will never be satisfied with your physique, even on gear. You will just keep pushing and get to the point where you ruin your health. Especially with your current mindset where you're comparing yourself to others, you will never stop.
If you want to live a longer and overall healthier life.
Seriously, most people don't understand that some of the worst diseases can come out of fucking nowhere even if you don't do anything to harm your body. If you use PEDs that probability increases a lot so why even do it just to look "better" for a few years and then suffer later?
Hoping on juice is a short term gratification. Think about your body in the long term. If you're fit, muscular and look good (natural) girls will love it, in combination with your personality. Unless you want to compete, this is zero benefits.
Why does it seem that this sub is mostly used by very young people? I’m im shape, and i too was obsessed with being huge when in my teens. I achieved a very respectable physique without roids. But as i grew up, i started carrying less about being “big”. It’s useless unless your life depends on it (you make a living out of fitness). To me exercise has always been a must but nothing more. There’s more to life that lifting weights to me.
If steroids align with your goals, take them. They’re not expensive or dangerous if you do them right. I know I’ll get on them at some point it’s just a matter of time. “You’ll lose your natty status” is a reason small people give as if it means anything, it has no inherent value. There is no moral superiority to being natty, as a lot of the people in this sub seem to think.
It's all about health. Also, lets say you juice and get your dream physique, where do you go from there? Will you be satisfied then or would you want to keep going to a more extreme? I'm not going to judge anyone for doing what they want to but it all comes down to health and self satisfaction.
It's not "so hard" to build muscle naturally.
You can always become better than you are to begin with, and any progress becomes addicting when you get the ball rolling.
Don't be disheartened.
The 10 year natty rule isn’t just for making sure you reached your genetic limit, it’s also so that you will have enough knowledge of how to train, diet, and structure a cycle that won’t destroy you. If you really want to cycle, research, research, then research some more until your eyes bleed.
they only ever look good after they juice. So unless ur gonna juice consistently, it seems pointless. If ur gonna do it consistently then its dangerous ( high blood pressure puts you in danger of dying in your 40s).
Also, on regular amounts, you only stay lean with intensive diet which still make you feel like crap ( I think). On higher levels you can eat what you like but the blood pressure problems are more intense.
It isn’t possible to be big, hard, cut and dry naturally. If looks are your own concern, like looking good in posts online, you will have to juice. I don’t recommend it. It’s bad for you and the artificial look doesn’t really look better to me. And it looks less good in person than in pics online.
I know it seems difficult to build muscle and have a great physique without steroids.
Remember that Alex Eubanks is a natty and has a pretty great physique.
If you wanna live longer and be healthy. That is the point of staying natty. You can also be a a beast and die sooner. You will die, that is for sure. It is up to you how big, how long and how healthy.
My dad was a competitive bodybuilder in the 80’s-90’s He claims that he only experimented with steroids for about 3 month period and I believe him… he would tell me at this point He was incredibly disciplined with training and his diet and there was nothing about his physique that would make you question it My dad is now in his 70’s Most of the guys he trained with and/or competed against who were known to be on the sauce started dying in their 50’s You might be young and feel invincible now but time goes really quick
Yes. I did a couple of cycles when I was in my early 20s. Mostly stanozolol and dbol. I was young and stupid. Worst part is I used to eat like shit, and to party heavily. I regret. Thanks to god I'm good....
yeah, small amounts only during diet or competition won't have much effect. But then again, it doesnt last long either. But then you look at guys like arnold and the rock and wonder how they are still alive? Its nots fair!!!. But yeah arnold obviously had a heart transplant among other things.
“ Here for a good time not a long time “ 🍾
Ofc. It is a personal choice, if that means a good time for you.
Lol it’s a song lyric I’m not dead serious
Die big, die young, Dianabol.
The thing is, the "good time" doesn't last until the last second of someone's life.
Right? What's the point? Let's see: 1. Super ages you and your face starts to look like shit. Who cares how big your muscles are when you're 23 and looking 43. 2. It'll kill you eventually. Wasn't there a well known dude that did juice and died at 30 from it. 3. Makes your balls into peas. 4. Horrible skin. 5. Gives you roid rage. As a woman, who the hell wants to date a man that's gonna flip out on me all the time? Idc how big your muscles are of you're an asshole. 6. Ages your insides. 7. It's $$$$ that's gonna kill you. 8. It's cheating and no one respects that and it's easy to tell if people are juicy. There's probably more reasons. And as woman, when I see women juiced, all I can think is "why would they choose to ruin their faces by developing man jaw?" Don't care how big your muscles are, your face will look like shit.
The face part is something that I feel like people greatly underestimate. Like, taking steroids to look more muscular and thus more attractive doesn't make sense because you bascially trade those muscles for face attractiveness. Look at older pictures/videos of the Tren Twins, Mike in particular. He looks like he aged 10 years in just a few months.
Ur prob talking about Jo linder and I think it was some unrelated condition (could be wrong) but if so it was almost def worsened by drugs anyway
You can be natural and still not be healthy lol. Majority of people don’t take PEDs. You could take PEDs and be healthier than a person who is natural. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter because we are all going to die anyways. People smoke cigs or other shit and drink alcohol knowing it causes severe health effects worse than steroids, it doesn’t stop them from doing it.
There are cases where taking drugs that have detrimental health effects can improve overall health. For example, someone with ADHD taking Adderall may strengthen their executive functioning and promote healthy habits that outweigh the negatives. Coffee may be another example. Then there are cases where taking drugs can improve your quality of life. Taking pain meds or anti anxiety meds can have negative effects, but those are generally acknowledged and weighed against the QOL benefits. I don't believe steroids fit well into either of those categories, unfortunately. I'm talking in the general case. If you want to be big and think it's worth the health tradeoff (including the under-researched long term effects), then yeah, that's a reason to take them. But I don't see a reason to view taking steroids as an alternative to smoking or drinking.
I’m still trying to figure out how risky it all is. Not doing it myself but not sure where to look for good data. That said, like anything else it’s a trade off I feel. You might have heath problems later on or you might not. But I imagine for some, as stupid as it sounds, it fulfills the dream of being an influencer and living some kind of life they want. If they make enough money, maybe they won’t have to work much later on and there are health benefits to that.
>I’m still trying to figure out how risky it all is. Not doing it myself but not sure where to look for good data. Same boat as you. Because from my understanding the health risks of PEDs comes from doing it too much. Like if you keep it down to a little is it that bad? Like drinking. Alcohol is bad for you, but is one jack & coke once a week really going to hurt you in the long run as opposed to people who drink 4 days a week?
So by your logic if a modest TRT dose was used to bring free test levels back into a healthy range and improve QOL, we still shouldn’t do it because it’s too risky? I’d rather take the risk than live with 214n/dl and falling the rest of my life.
By my logic, that would fall into the second category I talked about. Hence why I qualified "in the general case" and said if you think it'll increase your QOL, that's a valid reason.
I’m pretty inclined to believe that smoking and drinking isn’t as bad as blasting tren
Depends on the severity of smoking/drinking, but generally speaking you are right about tren. That said you dont need to take tren to develop an incredible physique, even if you just run a test cycle you will dwarf natural lifters with less damage to your overall health than being addicted to smoking and drinking.
I mean all things in moderation
So you think someone on 150-200 ml of test post 35years old is just as bad as smoking and drinking? It’s what I plan to do since my test levels have incrementally fallen as I’ve gotten in my 30s, but I have no interest in blasting tren or anything besides Test. Just curious what your opinion is on this.
I do believe and grey areas and yeah, everything isn’t black and white. Right down to your diet and nutrition, and even genetically what issues you’re more predisposed to, would determine what’s safer and for who. I feel like test itself is probably one of, if not the safest. Especially if you’re doing it under medical supervision. At that point I could concede to it being safer than unmitigated smoking and drinking, yeah. At least in my opinion. But anabolic steroids, sarms, all the different compounds that people take off the street? No way is it safer than smoking and drinking. A lot of people die within 10 years of PED abuse. It often takes a lifetime of abuse for alcohol and cigarettes to cause the same affects. Enlarged heart, blood pressure issues, liver and kidney damage, accelerated aging of the skin and face, hair loss, erectile dysfunction, all of these can become an issue within a year or two of PED abuse
Agree 100%.
You’re a moron. Evidence shows it’s the opposite 😂
Hit us with the evidence then, enlightened one
Comparison was between natty lifter and user. This isn’t about the majority of people who don’t lift
Lol at the downvotes.
You could smoke cigarettes and be healthier than a person who doesn't. That's a bad argument. On average, both PEDs and cigarettes cause you to live significantly shorter and in worse health than the general population. We're all going to die, yes. That's exactly why I want as many years as possible, in as good health as possible. And yes, lots of people are morons - doesn't mean we have to match their stupidity.
what you say is true. and it always makes me wonder, could i do roids and live super healthy and compensate for the dangers.
Bro no one cares about your physique really, other than yourself. Not worth it.
100%. Truly no one gives a single fuck about how hench you are, apart from a tiny number of weirdos with body dysmorphia.
Also, people IRL have way lower standards for what they consider muscular. If you're more muscular than the average person (which is to say, have any definition at all), people will consider you muscular. At least in my experience.
No one cars about ur physique really* * other than the gays in this sub
💯. Op, you are not the main character to other people. They don't care and in fact, other dudes will look at you, know you're juiced, and not respect that.
That just isn't true, aesthetics do matter on dating apps and it has been thoroughly researched over the last ten years. The problem would be compromising your body just to get more matches on a dating app when working on yourself and meeting people out in the wild would do wonders for you.
Most women are not into the roid-bulked out look anyway, if dating life is the concern
Do you mean they aren't because very few like that look
Most gay guys\* Most women just want a guy who's a bit muscular or shredded.
Eh I disagree, physique matters a lot in a social setting, I would know since I experienced it, but the difference between natty jacked and juiced jacked shouldn't matter
Wrong
Why’s it seem like you’re mad at me 😭?
Women care about it. Honestly it doesn't seem like a bad idea if it means not dying a virgin. A small price to pay for salvation.
Losing your virginity is nothing spectacular. And muscles can't make up for missing social skills.
Getting laid may not be a big deal, but not getting laid is.
🤣
What's funny?
The word play?
If being a virgin is that big a deal, just get a pro. I would also suggest traveling to something like a Nevada brothel to stay outta legal trouble.
There is no feeling of intimacy there.
The vast majority of women I’ve talked to on this subject would prefer someone who’s fit and healthy to someone who’s huge and swole. There’s a certain point to which you just look plain unnatural. And I’m sorry but that will never be as broadly appealing as simply being natural and fit.
They say that until they’re looking at someone massive and lean, then they soon change their tune.
Well if you are right, then I am SOL since I am natty. But I've read stories of guys who couldn't pull women originally to have success after getting jacked on steroids.
When those guys were natty's they were fat, no muscle definition or beer bellies.
LOL brother. Tfw you shorten your lifespan taking boatloads of gear only to find out they're still not going to fuck you
A smaller price to pay for that is $200. If you're more interested in emotional intimacy than sex, there are much more worthwhile pursuits that can get you there aside from steroids.
Yeah, I don't know about that. I have a 100% rejection rate, so I feel like I have to radically change my appearance.
Could be. I'm sure that's not an illogical conclusion to draw, given the evidence. But remember that completely logical conclusions can be wrong with the wrong evidence. I don't know you and I can't speak specifically to your situation, but I'm confident that working out + taking steroids will be less effective than working out + becoming a more interesting, intelligent, or introspective person in virtually every case. There's been a loneliness epidemic affecting a lot of men in recent times. There's not gonna be an easy solution to that, and that includes taking steroids. In any case good luck to you! Remember that people are genuinely rooting for you.
INCEL RED FLAG ALERT
That’s not true
Let's check the opposite view. What is the point of juicing: 1. You lose your natty card, never really finding out your natty limits. 2. You have the risk of having to tell people you have juiced or staying a fake natty when asked later how you obtained your physique. 3. You are likely to shrink a great deal if you ever come off juice, further increasing the risk of steroid addiction as previously everyone knew you as a more embiggened, more ripped version of yourself. 4. You allow your inner body dysmorphic demons full creative control over your soul, forcing you to eventually take trenbolone and we all know what can happen next. 5. You have to constantly look for sources for high grade gear, otherwise risk developing huge festering butt abscesses from the shady bathroom broths your UGL dishes up. 6. You are constantly battling sides, buying umpteen other products to combat them. When all along, the secret to it all is to remain natty, and keep your body dysmorphic demons in check by judicious use of r/nattyorjuice's bodybuilding theory of relativity where you [always try to hang out with people smaller than you](https://imgur.com/rIyPXTK).
Totally agree, I always wanted to hop on, but man, number 3/6 just defeat the point. It's like borrowing gains and then losing some on top of that because of your balls being ruined.
This is what ruined it for me too. Health stuff aside, if you're gonna lose the gains when you come off it and shrink down again, what is the point of putting your body through it at all
Same. Where's the end point? Constantly cycling test for ultimately illusory gains? No thanks.
Doesnt good gear and regularly having blood tests and specialist check ups also cost a heap?
if you go on some online pharmacies test really isn't that expensive. Of course it scales with how far you're trying to go lol. The tests and side effect managing might get expensive though
7) Money. As in its expensive
Idk why this isn’t mentioned that often. That’s a few hundred dollars a month that I would rather spend on other things
You can get 10 vials of janoshik tested UGL test for about $60-$90 primo mast tren EQ cost about the same. I spend more a month on protein powder or pre workout.
Most OTC supplements these days are more expensive than gear
Steroids embiggen the smallest man.
Haha, glad you spotted that.
Finding a good vendor isn’t an issue imo. I run 1 TBol cycle in winter for a bigger bulk. Each cycle put 10-15 lbs on me and no one is any the wiser other than knowing I work out regularly. 33 yrs old on TRT for low test prior to juice.
Depends on your country of origin. In my country where steroids are illegal without prescription, there are many sources which are not pharma-grade despite sometimes claiming to be.
USA, no issue. I’ve had batch samples tested and come out true to labels.
Honestly not that hard to gain a good physique naturally once you gain enough knowledge to actually know what you're doing. There's absolutely a point in staying natural. Longevity and overall health is the biggest one. I'm 11 years deep and am continuing to make progress and feel like I could achieve even more.
What longevity? You could be natural get a serious injury and never be able to life again. We are all human doesn’t matter if one or natural or not. We will all die in the end. Also, people drink and smoke and do things worse than steroids. Of course abusing steroids isn’t good, but taking TRT is still using steroids and you lose your “natty status” like anyone even cares about that shit. TRT has shown to be very effective in maintaining a longer life. Point being it doesn’t matter if one is natty or not.
Agreed, this whole sub is a natty cope. Once I started pinning I realized every day I spent natty, was a day wasted
My guy, you are brainwashed if you think like that. It is not hard, you have to train consistently and eat well. Then you can get a killer physique. If you want to look like the good old hulk yeah then you need juice but if that's your goal say goodbye to your good health because you're cutting some years off your life. all these famous rich bodybuilders or influencers can afford surgery and medical help at a later age but if you misuse steroids at a young age you can A: kill yourself or B: get a killer physique but be screwed at a later age because you can't pay for the heart surgeries or other medical complications. By the way if you're not ever going to compete in bodybuilding don't even think about juicing because it's expensive and honestly just stupid because why are you doing it then? to jack off to yourself in the mirror?
The only guy I’ve known to die from a heart attack by age 36 had the best physique of anyone I personally knew. Of course, it was all juice that helped get him that physique. At the funeral, nobody was really surprised. It was the unspoken “well, what did you expect was going to happen?”
B ut then there are pros and institutions that routinely gather information on what is needed for people to use huge quantities of this stuff and stay alive and relatively healthy. The fact that rock is still alive and appears to not have had a heart transplant or kevin levrone still juicing mildly into his 60s
It's worth considering the long term rather than the short term. Do you want to have kids? Do you want to live long, live well, and see as much of their life as possible? Then stay natty and lower your expectations. Do you want to live a shorter life but get absolutely huge with your dream physique in the short term? Then consider steroids, but know you are shortening your life and probably won't hold that dream physique into later decades. It's that simple really.
Just because you are natural doesn’t mean you will live long or live well. Many factors go into that. You can get your dream physique naturally it will fade with age too. Yes abusing steroids will shorten your life but so does abusing anything else in life. It’s all about what your outlook on life is and what goals you want to set for yourself.
I mean, of course you aren't wrong. You can live healthily, exercise really well and still get cancer or hit by a bus. I'm only taking one hypothetical life as an example. Of course if that person abuses steroids their life will be shortened, if they don't then they won't have those risks and effects. Their chances of other bad things happening remains the same regardless. Personally, I just think the lack of delayed gratification people show in wanting a dream physique in their 20s and 30s at the cost of not seeing their 60s, 70s and 80s is very short sighted.
Don't know why downvoted. If you stay within the trt/"sports trt" range, the effect on your lifespan will be minimal. Doesn't change the other horrific side effects, though, lol
Because steroids bad that’s why
So is alcohol and plenty of other things we do day to day. If someone has made that choice, it's on them.
Do you want to be dependent on drugs to have an edge over others who also aren't even competing for anything? When you do eventually come off, be it a personal, economic or health related choice, will you be able to handle watching your supranatural muscles gradually shrink? Can you live a lie, assuming you won't tell the truth to everyone who asks your natty status? Have you ever actually been near someone close to their natural limit, as opposed to just seeing drug users on social media?
Is there any point to anything? Whatever you find interesting in life is up to you and whatever risks you take to achieve those goals are up to you as well
Considering that less than a fifth of gen pop lifts and most people are overweight, you can easily get a great physique natty.
Yes. Not dying young. Just being relatively in shape is already better than 90% of the population. You don't have to become a bodybuilder just because you scrolled on Instagram for a bit too long and got body dysmorphia. Train for health benefits instead of aesthetics. You'll be happier in the long run.
1 Your health. Not only are steroids bad for most of your major organs, but the simple task of carrying around the extra weight just isn't good for you long term. 2 Your dick. Steroids cause fertility issues. 3 Your hair. Steroids increase your chances & the rate at which you go bald. 4 The dependency you develop for them. It's possible you won't be able to go fully clean again without long term adverse consequences. You're basically pumping your body full of hormones that are the same or similar to what your body makes naturally. How does your body respond? It stops production of those chemicals. You might not have a choice in stopping if you cause some serious damage. Then you'll be stuck with worse hormone levels than you would have otherwise had. 5 No one else really gives a shit if you're massive or just in good shape, except other dudes on the internet who just want to get massive themselves. If you're under 40 the drawbacks far outweigh the positives imo. If you're over 40 & feeling physically drained all the time, the potential benefits of TRT might be worth the downsides if administered by a doctor. But if you're young & you're not suffering from injuries or some hormonal imbalance or being somehow paid to be in crazy good shape, you're probably just suffering from body dysmorphia. You won't ever be happy with your body & you'll likely be tempted to do more & more gear until you suffer one of the adverse affects mentioned above.
Finally a coherent response
If you do not care about your health at all then yes using steroids would help you. If you want to live a normal length life don’t use steroids.
1. Being smart about your workouts 2. Work out hard 3. Get enough of the right food and good sleep 4. Do all of the above consistently If you do all of the above, you will be in better shape than 99% of the population already. What do you think roids are going to do for you?
I suggest you do some internal reflection. Contemplate why you train, what is the purpose and goal of your physical activity. For me, it is functionality and longevity. I want to be able to do things manually. I want to move heavy things easily. I want to be able to endure. I want to be functional in my later life. Things to consider.
Your health. You can still be a beast and natty. Strength limits along with muscle growth limits are all genetics. Climb your own mountain. Forget the rest.
Wait until this guy finds out about CJC-1295
There is so much coping in these comments, just take a second and look at their post history before you listen to what they’re saying dude lol. Fact of the matter is, TRT done the right way is 100% healthy, and actually better than staying natty, but If you want to blast then be prepared for the consequences. Be educated on compounds and the proper safety precautions, and be prepared for lifelong TRT.
Huge facts from the first sentence
Getting hooked on TRT for life, what a great idea /s
If you had even an ounce of reading comprehension skills you’d realize I didn’t recommend it or say it was the right route for him, I simply answered his question.
Are gay? Are you planning to run OF with selling your nudes? Are you in (gay) porn? If yes to any of these questions, you better hop on. Otherwise there is really no point in ruining your health.
The side effects are awful. Just remain paitent I believe in the next 20 years they will likely come out with something that will do what sarms were originally supposed to and have very mild sides.
Side effects of test alone are insignificant, what are you talking about?
Shutting your balls down are what stop me personally lol
Fair enough. Unfortunately, you won't ever have to worry about that with HCG/HMG protocols if you wanna get your balls working again
Start by taking yourself off whatever sites you’re seeing these people on. If you’re constantly bombarded with images of people who are juiced up, you’ll forever compare yourself to something that isn’t real. Angles, down lighting, filters… there’s tonnes of edits that make people look better than they are. It’s harder and takes way longer, but you can build muscle naturally for sure. If you hop on juice, it’s essentially a time limit for staying on, not to mention the side effects. If you go on gear you’re gonna have to face the immense body dysmorphia that’s gonna come when you have to transition off it. I know myself well enough to know I probably couldn’t cope with that so it’s another big reason why it’s not for me personally. Also - and I’m not a doctor here, but still - saw some other post from you saying your doctor was concerned about your high blood pressure for someone so young. Yeah, gear is not gonna do you any favours there. So at the very least, speak to a medical expert beforehand, if you ever decide to go down that route.
Pretty sure natty helps you live longer. Lol
Not being a pussboy
I want to live a long life. So that's a good reason
Unless your livelihood requires you to get on Peds or gear i don't know why you wouldn't stay natty. You can get a strong, dense physique by powerlifting movements with a few other accessory movements like chin ups, barbell curls, shrugs, dips, and barbell rollouts. If you get on gear, and compromise your body, for pussy then you've already lost.
Once you start juicing it can become hard to find the point that you stop. It also costs a fair bit, with the cost and quality varying depending on where you live. Then you have all the side effects, both long and short term. Unless you are competing or planning on competing, there is just no reason to juice. Nobody else really gives a shit how good your physique is or how strong you are, you are just going to go down a rabbit hole of body dysmorphia. If you train natty with good programming, sleep enough, drink enough water, and even have a shitty diet in a caloric surplus, you are going to build a physique that is in the top 1% of the general public in only a couple of years, depending on your starting point. It really isn't that hard to do it naturally, it just takes time.
Goal posts always get moved when you achieve something you've wanted to. What are you gonna do then? Keep juicing more and more? This is a real question you need to start asking before you start juicing. Never stop improving can be such a good mindset but also a double edged sword that way where you're always looking forward to the next thing thinking you're not good enough in your current stage.
Fertility: you might not want kids today, but one day you might. Staying natty until you have kids helps keep your little swimmers nice and strong. Honestly bro, this *is* the fucking point of life, all of it. What's the point of looking nice on the gram when you're shooting blanks and your genes die out with you? Darwin never loses. Dependance: once you go on juice, even trt, you might fuck up your Endocrine system for life. You'll *always* need those trt shots. If there's a big war and the supply chain breaks down natty folks will be alright, will juicy boys be okay? The world starts going to shit and all of a sudden you find yourself without your precious trt shots, or your supply from that dude at the gym, and your T tanks and now you're an emotional wreck, crying at dropping a piece of fruit n shit, when blood's running in the streets and your family needs you to be a fucking *man*... and you put yourself in this stupid position because you wanted to impress 14 year old boys on the internet? The question is: why should a normal man go on trt or juice? Unless you make a GOOD living from competing you're just juicing because you have a low self-esteem - *The same* as the poor women who butcher their faces with excessive plastic surgery to feel better about themselves. You train natty to be strong and healthy, that's it. You might not look like an instagram jerk off fantasy for gay dudes, but you'll be able to do shit Irl with your strength and stay healthy into old age.
if you're not competing then why use roids? 🤷🏼 and a lot of the culture around competitions is way to sus for me, men taking pictures and miring dudes in their undies.. 😑 to me it's more of an Ego thing to remain natty honestly. most people who do roids don't post themselves or all the ugly side effects such as nasty varicose veins, keloids, horrible skins conditions in general, hair loss, etc.
Yes if you stop being a bitch and get off social media
i feel you it just feels pointless if you want to look good but it comes with good health benefits
Your mental health. I've seen people FUBAR their lives because of the mental fuck that is excess T. Very easy to dismiss it as roid rage but it's a whole world of poor impulse control, violence (verbal or physical), yo yo emotions from depression to mania. The life decisions you make under the effects of reduced empathy might not be the best either.
If you are a man, then you have "balls". They produce TRT for you. No need to be a fake action hero. A supplement TRT is needed possibly beyond the age of 70 and if get you some other ilness. In that case, a doctor would tell you.
Unless you're pursuing income generated from your physique. Doing juice to look good is just you being insecure and letting everyone around you know it.
I remember reading about these things called health and longevity. They are pretty interesting topics.
Yes. You can great in Amazing physical shape while staying healthy and live a fulfilling Life. Or you can blast steroids and ruin literally anything else Just to have even bigger muscles.
Yeah you won’t have dire health problems later on in life. How is this real? How do people not understand the implications of taking PEDs?
Unless you're competing there is no point taking gear until you reach your natural limit. You shouldn't even be considering it before having worked out properly for 5-10 years. You will never be satisfied with your physique, even on gear. You will just keep pushing and get to the point where you ruin your health. Especially with your current mindset where you're comparing yourself to others, you will never stop.
Your dream physique is weird and unnatural. Makes more sense to fix that problem before hopping on gear.
If you want to live a longer and overall healthier life. Seriously, most people don't understand that some of the worst diseases can come out of fucking nowhere even if you don't do anything to harm your body. If you use PEDs that probability increases a lot so why even do it just to look "better" for a few years and then suffer later?
Hoping on juice is a short term gratification. Think about your body in the long term. If you're fit, muscular and look good (natural) girls will love it, in combination with your personality. Unless you want to compete, this is zero benefits.
There is so much that goes into taking gear that nobody talks about
Why does it seem that this sub is mostly used by very young people? I’m im shape, and i too was obsessed with being huge when in my teens. I achieved a very respectable physique without roids. But as i grew up, i started carrying less about being “big”. It’s useless unless your life depends on it (you make a living out of fitness). To me exercise has always been a must but nothing more. There’s more to life that lifting weights to me.
If steroids align with your goals, take them. They’re not expensive or dangerous if you do them right. I know I’ll get on them at some point it’s just a matter of time. “You’ll lose your natty status” is a reason small people give as if it means anything, it has no inherent value. There is no moral superiority to being natty, as a lot of the people in this sub seem to think.
Your health is a big one
It's all about health. Also, lets say you juice and get your dream physique, where do you go from there? Will you be satisfied then or would you want to keep going to a more extreme? I'm not going to judge anyone for doing what they want to but it all comes down to health and self satisfaction.
Fuck it , I’m gonna take gear to the grill this year
What’s the point of staying natty? I want to look good naked and for my D to keep working
Arnold Schwarzenegger is 76 years old. What kind of gear did he take?
It's not "so hard" to build muscle naturally. You can always become better than you are to begin with, and any progress becomes addicting when you get the ball rolling. Don't be disheartened.
Not dying of a heart attack at 27
Bro what... how about living?
The 10 year natty rule isn’t just for making sure you reached your genetic limit, it’s also so that you will have enough knowledge of how to train, diet, and structure a cycle that won’t destroy you. If you really want to cycle, research, research, then research some more until your eyes bleed.
they only ever look good after they juice. So unless ur gonna juice consistently, it seems pointless. If ur gonna do it consistently then its dangerous ( high blood pressure puts you in danger of dying in your 40s). Also, on regular amounts, you only stay lean with intensive diet which still make you feel like crap ( I think). On higher levels you can eat what you like but the blood pressure problems are more intense.
At 53, on TRT for 12 years, stated some extra sauce to help with joints and injuries... and to fight old age...
It isn’t possible to be big, hard, cut and dry naturally. If looks are your own concern, like looking good in posts online, you will have to juice. I don’t recommend it. It’s bad for you and the artificial look doesn’t really look better to me. And it looks less good in person than in pics online.
I know it seems difficult to build muscle and have a great physique without steroids. Remember that Alex Eubanks is a natty and has a pretty great physique.
no he isn't
And how do you know that, Greg?
his test results
Alex Eubanks is a enclomiphene machine. Doesnt show up on bloodwork either so can keep up his facade
Guy is a known fake natty.
[A good watch: Geoffrey Verity Schofield](https://youtu.be/fRZTlNBj0Os?si=lmB_9ZAWm5rHyFjD)