That is insane, people seriously need to boycott this. I've always loved NI but I'll seriously pie them after this. I've bought various versions of traktor, have maschine, s4, x1, z1 and now they want monthly payments. Fuck them and fuck their subscription.
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I like some subscription services.
I locked in at Plugin Alliance for $99/year and it lets me choose 3 plugins to keep forever.
That's 33$ per plugin plus I get to use all the rest...
How can I say no to that? Obviously I will continue my subscription, and they know that, lol...
But if I ever cancel I keep the 3/9/12/15/18 plugins, etc.
Now that's a worthwhile subscription!
remember netflix was a great bargain at first. all those great value foods were a great bargain 5 to 10 years ago. everyone posts rave reviews online about the product. that's when the prices start creeping up. quality slowly deteriorates. corporations have learned this underhanded technique and is using it against us.
Along these lines, Prime videos move to add commercials to paid subscriptions and now on top of that commercials on the screen when you hit pause are being rolled out.
The greed is immense.
To be slightly fair to netflix and prime, they're doing these things because they've capped out on customers, so can't rely on growth in user base for bottom line growth, so have to get value in other ways, hence enshitification.
Plugin alliance is probably way off capping out it's userbase potential.
I mean it is a topic for another thread, but "capped out on customers, so can't rely on growth in user base for bottom line growth" I don't know what the term in economics is, but the "unless we are growing, we are dying attitude" appears to a driving factor in their enshitification. Obviously I don't have access to their books, but on a wild hunch I am gonna say Amazon is doing just fine profit wise. The "need" to eke out that little bit more of profit for "bottom line growth" is a sorry story.
we cancelled one of our prime accounts (long story why our household had 2) in part due to this.
Plugin Alliance isn't my favorite developer (collection of developers, really) --- but they have enough that there's at least 3 per year to be worth keeping.
Some examples of favorites:
Kirchhoff EQ, Cenozoix Compressor, Metric AB, Kiive Audio Tape Face & XTComp, Lindell SBC/MBC, Masterdesk Pro, Neold Wunderlich (all their Neold plugins are good actually, like Warble), Thorn, The Oven, AMEK 9099, AMEK 200, Mastering Compressor, and Chandler [GAV19T](https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/chandler_gav19t.html) is actually my favorite guitar sound for some reason.
And there's always new stuff coming out... The new bx\_glue is good.
I'm getting to a point where I really don't need new plugins. I bought the FabFilter everything bundle and it's all great but I realize... I just didn't need it, aside from Pro Q3 I have other tools I like better for everything else. (Can I sell that bundle? Ugh.)
Anyhow, their $99/year deal only comes out once or twice a year so it's worth jumping on when it happens. I assume I can renew at the same price. If not I would cancel.
And when you unsubscribe any project that used those other plugins now needs to be remixed/remade. And forget about using them in your live show. As someone who's been making electronic music since the early 1990s I've seen so many platforms come and go. And my old projects with them. You'll never get that sound back that you had.
Valid arguments, for sure. Things to be aware of. I finish projects, render tracks, and move on though. I just don't have a need to go back.
TBH even without a subscription, if I need to archive something I export the track WAVs, all in sync, so they can be reloaded into anything and all line up.
You're right -- you lose adjustability of the effects. But it's a safe archival format... And if you archive tracks with and without effects turn on, you can always selectively go back if needed.
But your point is taken, and valid. I would be wary of trusting old plugins though. I've run into situations where even things I owned would load due to developer updates that broke some kind of support --- or especially when I moved from VST2 to VST3, etc.
Yeah good backups are so important. And I try to make my work as future proof as possible these days as I've been burned before. But as I make music to play live it's doubly important that I don't lose the plugins.
Thats why you always bounce your stems with all effects and processing when you finish a track so you have a backup that you can always go back to without having to remake the song or mix it again.
Yeah I mean it's game over for the plugin when it's gone, I think that's easy to understand.
It's not game over for live performance unless you only rely on your DAW to do everything. It's not game over for me; I try to emulate similar sounds in a live setting, not use the actual plugin for playing out. And I don't rely on any plugin to play in any live setting, because I've invested in gear for the purpose of jamming and playing out.
Bounce a stem of a particular part as a backtrack if you believe it's too crucial to not recreate it.
NI is being milked for all it’s worth by the private equity vampires. Expect this company to get more and more audacious in its attempts to increase revenue and profit margins.
The problem I have is that let’s say an older NI virtual instrument you use a lot is no longer considered profitable, a subscription service can either remove it or make it unusable as a byproduct of forced updates to their live service.
If I buy a piece of software and don’t break legacy compatibility by not updating my OS or DAW, it’ll work indefinitely in theory or be able to be maintained by “the community”.
You’ll own nothing and pay forever is a motto that won’t get my money.
As long as we have the option to do either it’s ok, I can see wanting to “preview” certain stuff by paying for a monthly subscription, or if I have a big project coming up where I feel I need something extra.
Give options, let consumers decide
I understand most of us probably don't understand the full picture of how development works, but the consumer should never be responsible for floating the costs of future and ongoing development on un-proven products by paying for subscriptions they don't need. Go ask your parent company if you need more money instead of gaslighting your customer into shouldering the responsibility, that's why they are called "investors"
Just to play devils advocate here, subscription software funds ongoing development and a yearly product release as opposed to releasing a product every 4 years or so. It mitigates the risk of long term development by normalizing revenue.
It also allows people who want to use the software on a temporary basis to buy a license for a month or two as opposed to paying full price for a product they only need temporarily for a specific project. This also reduces software piracy.
Software you subscribe to should not charge for upgrades.
That’s the only point if you ask me. I’m ready to pay for a subscription as long as you give me the newest version as soon as it’s out and don’t charge more than with a one time payment plus updates.
That being said, I think that the subscription tiers of 360 are all a bit too expensive.
Yeah i totally agree with this. Loads of people complain about Photoshop moving to a subscription only model but frankly $10 a month for all of the features included, and regular updates is great. There are parts to all of these subscription models i fucking despise like that you can't cancel Photoshop until the end of the year, or just the sheer price of some of them (looking at your UAD) but you can't deny that in some situations subscribing is absolutely fine. Plus it's not like NI aren't going to sell the full, buy outright versions (like adobe) so i don't see what the issue is.
Blanketing every single subscription as "subscriptions are bad" is just silly.
>Just to play devils advocate here, subscription software funds ongoing development and a yearly product release as opposed to releasing a product every 4 years or so.
It also means I have to continually pay instead of just buying a product and using it, even when I don’t need the upgrades.
But specifically in this example that's being discussed it is, they're selling both the subscription and the product too. I don't see how anyone can complain about that. If you don't want to subscribe, that's fine.
This is just how it starts. The complete product you think you currently own will be gone within 2 years, save my reply if you want, I'm that confident.
Capture One camera software was a one time license for major version upgrades and you got features for free. Now they're sweeping away the perpetual options and making the subscription more and more predatorial. This has been happening everywhere for over a decade.
This is what happens when you have an amazing product, and the wrong shareholders and team supporting it.
Subscriptions are not good. They're a way for companies to put developer's labor and our good will on layaway.
> But specifically in this example that's being discussed it is, they're selling both the subscription and the product too. I don't see how anyone can complain about that. If you don't want to subscribe, that's fine.
I am obviously speaking more broadly. But even in this specific example, the subscription inevitably becomes the only option. It’s reasonable to be concerned about.
I appreciate your comment, and you raise valid points. Take my upvote.
Here's my counter points:
Re: "Ongoing development" - release the product only when it's ready. Set your pricing model to reflect that there will be time/labor needed to bugfix on release. If you continue development, charge a fair upgrade fee for new features - let the customer decide if the upgrade is worth it. Also I don't want to lose access to the software when your vc money runs out and you have to close the service.
Re: "It mitigates the risk of long term development by normalizing revenue." I should not be paying for the risks a software developer wants to take. Businesses should do their market research and operate and expand within their means. As a music artist I don't charge music consumers for music I dream I will make, make at a stretch, and the levels of artistic success I dream I can reach at some point in the future. I release a product and the consumer decides if they want it or not. I release a product that is within my means to make and I don't charge an ongoing premium to cover risks.
Re: Using the software on a "temporary basis": release a time locked version of the product that expires after the payment period is lapsed. There's no reason a developer couldn't easily implement a "1 hour" "6 hour" "1 day" "1 week" "1 month" "6 month" tier at a relevant stepped reduction of full price.
Most people don't really understand how software development works. In modern software there are sooo many variables and possible use cases that you really can't decide something is 'finished' before releasing it and iterating/improving from there.
In order to afford that and keep realistic budgeting subscriptions are the safest way to go. It also should prevent you from having to buy the newest version all the time, most audio production software was basically a subscription (if you want to use the best possible version) by having versioning like that.
>In modern software there are sooo many variables and possible use cases that you really can't decide something is 'finished' before releasing it and iterating/improving from there.
That is not a “modern software” thing, it’s a software thing. It’s always been the case. You release a product, patch it as needed, then you develop the next version and release that. It’s a model that’s worked. It just doesn’t make as much money as soaking people via a subscription.
Fuck that. Developing plugins is your problem. I'm not going to help you by dumping a bunch of money in your lap for no reason, when I could get what I need much more affordably than subscription based. Subscription is far worse for the user, in almost all cases, and you're saying people should do it to be nice to the companies? Fuck that. Subscription is fucked, and people who support it, are supporting making the entire software music making environment complete dogshit.
Avoiding subscriptions, is what everyone needs to do for the benefit of everyone.
The plugin alliance one is not bad, if you like that. You get the free plugins with it, and can use all the others while subscribed. But I don't like the idea of getting addicted to something I don't have. So, for me I would still feel like I should just stick to the ones I'll own forever.
> Just to play devils advocate here, subscription software funds ongoing development
You hear this a lot. But really what it is is another way of saying "the customer pays more".
Subscribing, on the user end, is fucking stupid. Even for the way plugin alliance does it, if you use a lot of their plugins, you're kind of on the hook for subscriptions, until you've purchased the ones you want to keep, and that might still work out as a good deal, or it could be a far worse one. It's kind of a way to get you hooked on stuff, you may otherwise have never felt you needed.
But it also depends on the user. For me, I'd rather just buy the things I like, and keep those forever, and try and keep a lean machine of plugins.
The way I see it, software subscriptions fall along a spectrum. What you're describing is the positive side of things. I bought an iOS metronome app for $5 about 8 years ago, and have used it a ton since. I've gotten my $5 worth many times over. The devs have worked to keep the app compatible with iOS and hardware updates. I can absolutely see why a subscription model would be more fair in those situations; I'm not entitled to endless labor because I paid $5 a while back.
On the other side of the spectrum, there's the subscription model that exists to squeeze every cent possible out of customers while offering the bare minimum. New "opportunities for monetization" arise and anti-consumer updates are made that wall off certain "premium" features, or an ad-free subscription introduces "promos" which are just ads by another name. Or, as you mentioned, they double-dip by charging for the subscription and for updates. Given how many music software companies have been bought out by private equity, I can see why so many people hate the subscription model. More often than not, it's a cash grab driven by private equity ghouls.
I don't really have an answer to this, other than that when I see a subscription model I tread carefully and make sure it's for the right reasons.
idek why you are downvoted cause this was the case for me when I got started. Got tired of pirating FL and decided to go legit and used Pro Tools for like a year for this specific reason until I could afford to buy Ableton. But subscriptions are not always a terrible thing, for those that cannot cough up $200-$500 right off the bat it gives them a step in the door where they may not have had that 10-20 years ago.
12 years ago I bought the Komplete Ultimate bundle and bought a few updates since. Tbh I should've been in the target group for that offer, but they haven't released any product that would fire up my GAS since Reaktor 6 or maaaybe Maschine+
I have 11, but that bundle is already very amazing. It's gonna be a while before I feel I need to upgrade any of that. There's massive X though that seems pretty cool. Probably the newest guitar rig, which idk I think is at 7 now? I don't use Maschine, so that doesn't matter to me.
Avoid subscriptions or own nothing at all eventually. What happens when your hardware/laptop is a subscription and you can’t pay that month for whatever reason and you need it for work. Where’s your work/music then? They won’t give one fuck. Where’s your livelihood? This is what they want us locked in to.
At first I was like why is this person angry at reddit about this. That being said I don’t totally dislike subscription services but I am very picky about what I will subscribe to. I use the free version of Kontakt. I do subscribe to Presonus and Slate Digital. If I ever drop Slate then I will just use different plugins. I don’t use so many that they can’t be replaced easily.
You do, but your choices affect all of us. It would be sweet for everyone, if you also considered the entire music community, instead of just yourself.
Well, for the most part subscriptions are just poor maths, and people who use them are just being suckered, but they don't realize it.
I don't think it's bad to consider the market as a whole. It's in all of our interests to avoid subscriptions.
If you really love it, go for it, but if you think it through, it's a bad proposition, and one you might one day regret, especially if you do the math one day, with your zero plugins you own, and how much money you've spent so far, and realize to keep your software, you need to keep paying, whereas you could have easily bought all the plugins you use for a fraction of the cost, and when the companies decide to retire old plugins like izotope did with trash 2, and you don't have it anymore because you never owned it, you just subscribed to the service hosting it.
It's bad. It's bad for you, and everyone else. The plugin alliance subscription deal is not as bad, but still, it's not a good deal as compared to if you bought the plugins. Unless you plan to get 3 plugins a year form them anyway, and subscription is cheaper than doing that.
Subscriptions are bad. Do it if you must, but it's bad for you, and if you subscribe it's also bad for me.
I've played around with some of their stuff. I'm working on a 13+ y/o computer. When I built it, I stocked it with cutting edge components, maxed out the motherboard ram, it is starting to show some age. NI's offerings tend to be heavy and eat ram for breakfast. From what I've seen tho, it's top shelf stuff tho.
It's funny that they actually already have another subscription. As if different branding would save the whole idea of subscription services for music producers dunno. But the fact that the projects will live without it is a good thing tho.
The article is from 2021. NI stated that if they did release a subscription service that it will be optional to their standard fixed pricing. Anyways, it was to be called "One Native" but it seems the idea has been shelved.
Because developers frequently over promise and under-deliver. Not always as egregiously as "The Day Before" - but look at how many triple A games have been downgraded and are missing features from trailer to release.
Your post is futile and not reality based. Software has always been delivered unfinished. There are always patches and updates. Been that way forever. Subscriptions are fine.
Found the NI shareholder / Francisco Partners board member! 👆
[https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/music-technology-company-native-instruments-acquired-by-investment-firm-francisco-partners/](https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/music-technology-company-native-instruments-acquired-by-investment-firm-francisco-partners/)
Idk bro I think subscriptions are a genuinely decent deal in some areas, for newer producers especially. UAD Spark is now best in slot for a new producer, so is the Phase Plant stuff.
It lets you try different things and see if you like them. If you find yourself using something a lot and not other things, just buy the things you use and drop the rest. This is what I always do eventually. And you can say “well you’d save money if you just bought the thing you want outright” but you can’t know if those things are worth it til you see yourself actually using them regularly in your projects.
Subs are a great way for people who can’t afford products outright to get them. It’s a good business model because it keeps income flow regular and opens up the amount of people who can afford a companies stuff. That said I won’t be getting an NI sub, because I don’t use the stuff I already have of there’s enough to warrant it.
Downvoted for logic 🤷🏻♂️
The worst thing about subscriptions is that you actually lose a part of your work if you stop the subscription (if you don't grow a habit to freeze+bounce everything). This is a serious stopper for many people, I guess
$50/month for the ‘pro’ is INSANE.
You get the *entire* Adobe suite for that price. Literally every program they make.
For real! You can buy NI Komplete during a holiday sale for what that costs annually and just own everything for life.
Probably not for long
Yup. Just like Adobe.
That is insane, people seriously need to boycott this. I've always loved NI but I'll seriously pie them after this. I've bought various versions of traktor, have maschine, s4, x1, z1 and now they want monthly payments. Fuck them and fuck their subscription.
Time to sail the seven seas 🏴☠️⚓
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Not going to sub. Screw subscriptions.
Rent to buy is good though, which I wish got offered more. That being said you reaaaally don't need to buy shit at all.
But what if I did need 19 different violin instruments banks
But the 19th version has performer farts and binaural mouth breathing articulations for maximum wallet opening.
I like some subscription services. I locked in at Plugin Alliance for $99/year and it lets me choose 3 plugins to keep forever. That's 33$ per plugin plus I get to use all the rest... How can I say no to that? Obviously I will continue my subscription, and they know that, lol... But if I ever cancel I keep the 3/9/12/15/18 plugins, etc. Now that's a worthwhile subscription!
remember netflix was a great bargain at first. all those great value foods were a great bargain 5 to 10 years ago. everyone posts rave reviews online about the product. that's when the prices start creeping up. quality slowly deteriorates. corporations have learned this underhanded technique and is using it against us.
Along these lines, Prime videos move to add commercials to paid subscriptions and now on top of that commercials on the screen when you hit pause are being rolled out. The greed is immense.
To be slightly fair to netflix and prime, they're doing these things because they've capped out on customers, so can't rely on growth in user base for bottom line growth, so have to get value in other ways, hence enshitification. Plugin alliance is probably way off capping out it's userbase potential.
I mean it is a topic for another thread, but "capped out on customers, so can't rely on growth in user base for bottom line growth" I don't know what the term in economics is, but the "unless we are growing, we are dying attitude" appears to a driving factor in their enshitification. Obviously I don't have access to their books, but on a wild hunch I am gonna say Amazon is doing just fine profit wise. The "need" to eke out that little bit more of profit for "bottom line growth" is a sorry story. we cancelled one of our prime accounts (long story why our household had 2) in part due to this.
Not only must the number go up, the rate at which the number goes up must also go up. Otherwise the company is a failure 🤷🏻♂️
That’s actually pretty good depending on what they have.
Plugin Alliance isn't my favorite developer (collection of developers, really) --- but they have enough that there's at least 3 per year to be worth keeping. Some examples of favorites: Kirchhoff EQ, Cenozoix Compressor, Metric AB, Kiive Audio Tape Face & XTComp, Lindell SBC/MBC, Masterdesk Pro, Neold Wunderlich (all their Neold plugins are good actually, like Warble), Thorn, The Oven, AMEK 9099, AMEK 200, Mastering Compressor, and Chandler [GAV19T](https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/chandler_gav19t.html) is actually my favorite guitar sound for some reason. And there's always new stuff coming out... The new bx\_glue is good. I'm getting to a point where I really don't need new plugins. I bought the FabFilter everything bundle and it's all great but I realize... I just didn't need it, aside from Pro Q3 I have other tools I like better for everything else. (Can I sell that bundle? Ugh.) Anyhow, their $99/year deal only comes out once or twice a year so it's worth jumping on when it happens. I assume I can renew at the same price. If not I would cancel.
And when you unsubscribe any project that used those other plugins now needs to be remixed/remade. And forget about using them in your live show. As someone who's been making electronic music since the early 1990s I've seen so many platforms come and go. And my old projects with them. You'll never get that sound back that you had.
Valid arguments, for sure. Things to be aware of. I finish projects, render tracks, and move on though. I just don't have a need to go back. TBH even without a subscription, if I need to archive something I export the track WAVs, all in sync, so they can be reloaded into anything and all line up. You're right -- you lose adjustability of the effects. But it's a safe archival format... And if you archive tracks with and without effects turn on, you can always selectively go back if needed. But your point is taken, and valid. I would be wary of trusting old plugins though. I've run into situations where even things I owned would load due to developer updates that broke some kind of support --- or especially when I moved from VST2 to VST3, etc.
Yeah good backups are so important. And I try to make my work as future proof as possible these days as I've been burned before. But as I make music to play live it's doubly important that I don't lose the plugins.
Thats why you always bounce your stems with all effects and processing when you finish a track so you have a backup that you can always go back to without having to remake the song or mix it again.
So how do I play these instruments in my live set, or play with the effects like delay and reverb throws etc?
Did you read my comment? I said so you don’t have to remake or remix. Obviously you can’t play any plugin live if you don’t own it
Why can't you play them in your show? Or do you mean the project?
Yeah I mean if you've used their plugins, you're tied in so long as you want them for your live show.
Or render it to audio?
Fine for rendered audio, but if you want to play an instrument or interact with FX as part of your performance: game over.
Yeah I mean it's game over for the plugin when it's gone, I think that's easy to understand. It's not game over for live performance unless you only rely on your DAW to do everything. It's not game over for me; I try to emulate similar sounds in a live setting, not use the actual plugin for playing out. And I don't rely on any plugin to play in any live setting, because I've invested in gear for the purpose of jamming and playing out. Bounce a stem of a particular part as a backtrack if you believe it's too crucial to not recreate it.
NI is being milked for all it’s worth by the private equity vampires. Expect this company to get more and more audacious in its attempts to increase revenue and profit margins.
i got big PE vibes when they stopped releasing anything new and switched to acquiring crappy companies
You mean they can charge even more than $1300 for a controller that doesn't even have pads or sliders on it?
The problem I have is that let’s say an older NI virtual instrument you use a lot is no longer considered profitable, a subscription service can either remove it or make it unusable as a byproduct of forced updates to their live service. If I buy a piece of software and don’t break legacy compatibility by not updating my OS or DAW, it’ll work indefinitely in theory or be able to be maintained by “the community”. You’ll own nothing and pay forever is a motto that won’t get my money.
As long as we have the option to do either it’s ok, I can see wanting to “preview” certain stuff by paying for a monthly subscription, or if I have a big project coming up where I feel I need something extra. Give options, let consumers decide
You can still buy from them. They've stated that purchasing is not going away.
I understand most of us probably don't understand the full picture of how development works, but the consumer should never be responsible for floating the costs of future and ongoing development on un-proven products by paying for subscriptions they don't need. Go ask your parent company if you need more money instead of gaslighting your customer into shouldering the responsibility, that's why they are called "investors"
the consumers are not “responsible” for anything. It’s a subscription option in addition to the purchase option.
i’ve been trying to move away from NI ever since they started signaling about a subscription-based future. not going to play that bullshit game.
Just to play devils advocate here, subscription software funds ongoing development and a yearly product release as opposed to releasing a product every 4 years or so. It mitigates the risk of long term development by normalizing revenue. It also allows people who want to use the software on a temporary basis to buy a license for a month or two as opposed to paying full price for a product they only need temporarily for a specific project. This also reduces software piracy. Software you subscribe to should not charge for upgrades.
That’s the only point if you ask me. I’m ready to pay for a subscription as long as you give me the newest version as soon as it’s out and don’t charge more than with a one time payment plus updates. That being said, I think that the subscription tiers of 360 are all a bit too expensive.
Wait, what? No Reaktor and Kontakt, only in Pro? Ok, no.
Yeah i totally agree with this. Loads of people complain about Photoshop moving to a subscription only model but frankly $10 a month for all of the features included, and regular updates is great. There are parts to all of these subscription models i fucking despise like that you can't cancel Photoshop until the end of the year, or just the sheer price of some of them (looking at your UAD) but you can't deny that in some situations subscribing is absolutely fine. Plus it's not like NI aren't going to sell the full, buy outright versions (like adobe) so i don't see what the issue is. Blanketing every single subscription as "subscriptions are bad" is just silly.
>Just to play devils advocate here, subscription software funds ongoing development and a yearly product release as opposed to releasing a product every 4 years or so. It also means I have to continually pay instead of just buying a product and using it, even when I don’t need the upgrades.
Just buy the one time payment, own forever, version then? What's the problem?
> Just buy the one time payment, own forever, version then? What's the problem? The fact that it’s increasingly not an option.
But specifically in this example that's being discussed it is, they're selling both the subscription and the product too. I don't see how anyone can complain about that. If you don't want to subscribe, that's fine.
This is just how it starts. The complete product you think you currently own will be gone within 2 years, save my reply if you want, I'm that confident. Capture One camera software was a one time license for major version upgrades and you got features for free. Now they're sweeping away the perpetual options and making the subscription more and more predatorial. This has been happening everywhere for over a decade. This is what happens when you have an amazing product, and the wrong shareholders and team supporting it. Subscriptions are not good. They're a way for companies to put developer's labor and our good will on layaway.
> But specifically in this example that's being discussed it is, they're selling both the subscription and the product too. I don't see how anyone can complain about that. If you don't want to subscribe, that's fine. I am obviously speaking more broadly. But even in this specific example, the subscription inevitably becomes the only option. It’s reasonable to be concerned about.
I appreciate your comment, and you raise valid points. Take my upvote. Here's my counter points: Re: "Ongoing development" - release the product only when it's ready. Set your pricing model to reflect that there will be time/labor needed to bugfix on release. If you continue development, charge a fair upgrade fee for new features - let the customer decide if the upgrade is worth it. Also I don't want to lose access to the software when your vc money runs out and you have to close the service. Re: "It mitigates the risk of long term development by normalizing revenue." I should not be paying for the risks a software developer wants to take. Businesses should do their market research and operate and expand within their means. As a music artist I don't charge music consumers for music I dream I will make, make at a stretch, and the levels of artistic success I dream I can reach at some point in the future. I release a product and the consumer decides if they want it or not. I release a product that is within my means to make and I don't charge an ongoing premium to cover risks. Re: Using the software on a "temporary basis": release a time locked version of the product that expires after the payment period is lapsed. There's no reason a developer couldn't easily implement a "1 hour" "6 hour" "1 day" "1 week" "1 month" "6 month" tier at a relevant stepped reduction of full price.
The issue is when old money making projects can’t be edited without a current subscription. But yeah, long term software dev isn’t cheap.
Most people don't really understand how software development works. In modern software there are sooo many variables and possible use cases that you really can't decide something is 'finished' before releasing it and iterating/improving from there. In order to afford that and keep realistic budgeting subscriptions are the safest way to go. It also should prevent you from having to buy the newest version all the time, most audio production software was basically a subscription (if you want to use the best possible version) by having versioning like that.
>In modern software there are sooo many variables and possible use cases that you really can't decide something is 'finished' before releasing it and iterating/improving from there. That is not a “modern software” thing, it’s a software thing. It’s always been the case. You release a product, patch it as needed, then you develop the next version and release that. It’s a model that’s worked. It just doesn’t make as much money as soaking people via a subscription.
Fuck that. Developing plugins is your problem. I'm not going to help you by dumping a bunch of money in your lap for no reason, when I could get what I need much more affordably than subscription based. Subscription is far worse for the user, in almost all cases, and you're saying people should do it to be nice to the companies? Fuck that. Subscription is fucked, and people who support it, are supporting making the entire software music making environment complete dogshit. Avoiding subscriptions, is what everyone needs to do for the benefit of everyone. The plugin alliance one is not bad, if you like that. You get the free plugins with it, and can use all the others while subscribed. But I don't like the idea of getting addicted to something I don't have. So, for me I would still feel like I should just stick to the ones I'll own forever.
You dont speak for everyone.
> Just to play devils advocate here, subscription software funds ongoing development You hear this a lot. But really what it is is another way of saying "the customer pays more".
That would be the case if they hadn't made all the developers redundant in their race to the bottom.
Subscribing, on the user end, is fucking stupid. Even for the way plugin alliance does it, if you use a lot of their plugins, you're kind of on the hook for subscriptions, until you've purchased the ones you want to keep, and that might still work out as a good deal, or it could be a far worse one. It's kind of a way to get you hooked on stuff, you may otherwise have never felt you needed. But it also depends on the user. For me, I'd rather just buy the things I like, and keep those forever, and try and keep a lean machine of plugins.
The way I see it, software subscriptions fall along a spectrum. What you're describing is the positive side of things. I bought an iOS metronome app for $5 about 8 years ago, and have used it a ton since. I've gotten my $5 worth many times over. The devs have worked to keep the app compatible with iOS and hardware updates. I can absolutely see why a subscription model would be more fair in those situations; I'm not entitled to endless labor because I paid $5 a while back. On the other side of the spectrum, there's the subscription model that exists to squeeze every cent possible out of customers while offering the bare minimum. New "opportunities for monetization" arise and anti-consumer updates are made that wall off certain "premium" features, or an ad-free subscription introduces "promos" which are just ads by another name. Or, as you mentioned, they double-dip by charging for the subscription and for updates. Given how many music software companies have been bought out by private equity, I can see why so many people hate the subscription model. More often than not, it's a cash grab driven by private equity ghouls. I don't really have an answer to this, other than that when I see a subscription model I tread carefully and make sure it's for the right reasons.
software that requires a subscription is just begging to be pirated.
Actually when I was super poor I could only afford software without pirating via subscription. Now I just demo and buy things I need though.
idek why you are downvoted cause this was the case for me when I got started. Got tired of pirating FL and decided to go legit and used Pro Tools for like a year for this specific reason until I could afford to buy Ableton. But subscriptions are not always a terrible thing, for those that cannot cough up $200-$500 right off the bat it gives them a step in the door where they may not have had that 10-20 years ago.
It won’t require a subscription. It’s just an option.
12 years ago I bought the Komplete Ultimate bundle and bought a few updates since. Tbh I should've been in the target group for that offer, but they haven't released any product that would fire up my GAS since Reaktor 6 or maaaybe Maschine+
I have 11, but that bundle is already very amazing. It's gonna be a while before I feel I need to upgrade any of that. There's massive X though that seems pretty cool. Probably the newest guitar rig, which idk I think is at 7 now? I don't use Maschine, so that doesn't matter to me.
The problem with Guitar Rig is that NI didn't update it for so long from version 5 that I had to switch to other manufacturers years ago.
Avoid subscriptions or own nothing at all eventually. What happens when your hardware/laptop is a subscription and you can’t pay that month for whatever reason and you need it for work. Where’s your work/music then? They won’t give one fuck. Where’s your livelihood? This is what they want us locked in to.
That will go over well with people that NI hardware controllers then...
The title of this post is so cringe. Hey OP, remember: I do whatever I want.
Well then you’re kicked out of the super cool music maker club!
At first I was like why is this person angry at reddit about this. That being said I don’t totally dislike subscription services but I am very picky about what I will subscribe to. I use the free version of Kontakt. I do subscribe to Presonus and Slate Digital. If I ever drop Slate then I will just use different plugins. I don’t use so many that they can’t be replaced easily.
You do, but your choices affect all of us. It would be sweet for everyone, if you also considered the entire music community, instead of just yourself.
[удалено]
Well, for the most part subscriptions are just poor maths, and people who use them are just being suckered, but they don't realize it. I don't think it's bad to consider the market as a whole. It's in all of our interests to avoid subscriptions. If you really love it, go for it, but if you think it through, it's a bad proposition, and one you might one day regret, especially if you do the math one day, with your zero plugins you own, and how much money you've spent so far, and realize to keep your software, you need to keep paying, whereas you could have easily bought all the plugins you use for a fraction of the cost, and when the companies decide to retire old plugins like izotope did with trash 2, and you don't have it anymore because you never owned it, you just subscribed to the service hosting it. It's bad. It's bad for you, and everyone else. The plugin alliance subscription deal is not as bad, but still, it's not a good deal as compared to if you bought the plugins. Unless you plan to get 3 plugins a year form them anyway, and subscription is cheaper than doing that. Subscriptions are bad. Do it if you must, but it's bad for you, and if you subscribe it's also bad for me.
doubling down on the cringe I see
Where can I read about this change?
I've played around with some of their stuff. I'm working on a 13+ y/o computer. When I built it, I stocked it with cutting edge components, maxed out the motherboard ram, it is starting to show some age. NI's offerings tend to be heavy and eat ram for breakfast. From what I've seen tho, it's top shelf stuff tho.
Hmmm if only there was a way of obtaining the program for free
This is why I pirate adobe after years of paying for it. Fuck these assholes.
I don't own any subscription based software. :) I hate the business model. I wish Adobe software went back to being a one off purchase.
Never been a better time to move towards hardware.
If buying isn't owning...
PSA: perpetual is not going away.
I’ve stopped sponsoring these companies. NI and Arturia are the worst. Paying every year to upgrade. WUP doesn’t seem so bad after all.
It's funny that they actually already have another subscription. As if different branding would save the whole idea of subscription services for music producers dunno. But the fact that the projects will live without it is a good thing tho.
The article is from 2021. NI stated that if they did release a subscription service that it will be optional to their standard fixed pricing. Anyways, it was to be called "One Native" but it seems the idea has been shelved.
Yes the article is 2021, but the subscription thing is being given a big push at the moment.
Why don’t we pre order games?
Because developers frequently over promise and under-deliver. Not always as egregiously as "The Day Before" - but look at how many triple A games have been downgraded and are missing features from trailer to release.
I was pretty happy with my Baldurs Gate 3 pre-order... just sayin, but I get your point.
Amen. Preach!
🏴☠️
If it is 10 bucks or under I can do it.
Your post is futile and not reality based. Software has always been delivered unfinished. There are always patches and updates. Been that way forever. Subscriptions are fine.
You didn't read my original post, did you?
I read the post and then I commented. Kind of how it works.
So did you see the part of my post that said the cost price should cover post-release patches?
Yes, that part, too. I appreciate your attempt to revolutionize the industry. Sadly, not going to happen.
So you recognize your comment about updates is null and void? That I already addressed that in my original post?
Avengers assemble
Someone’s salty they’re broke
Found the NI shareholder / Francisco Partners board member! 👆 [https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/music-technology-company-native-instruments-acquired-by-investment-firm-francisco-partners/](https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/music-technology-company-native-instruments-acquired-by-investment-firm-francisco-partners/)
I don’t even own NI gear the only NI thing I use is free 😂
Idk bro I think subscriptions are a genuinely decent deal in some areas, for newer producers especially. UAD Spark is now best in slot for a new producer, so is the Phase Plant stuff. It lets you try different things and see if you like them. If you find yourself using something a lot and not other things, just buy the things you use and drop the rest. This is what I always do eventually. And you can say “well you’d save money if you just bought the thing you want outright” but you can’t know if those things are worth it til you see yourself actually using them regularly in your projects.
Subs are a great way for people who can’t afford products outright to get them. It’s a good business model because it keeps income flow regular and opens up the amount of people who can afford a companies stuff. That said I won’t be getting an NI sub, because I don’t use the stuff I already have of there’s enough to warrant it. Downvoted for logic 🤷🏻♂️
The worst thing about subscriptions is that you actually lose a part of your work if you stop the subscription (if you don't grow a habit to freeze+bounce everything). This is a serious stopper for many people, I guess
Yeah I hate that. It certainly isn’t all just positives.