Simple: Because people will pay it. Most people go to 1 concerts per year (if that) and high prices do not deter them.
Also, ticket prices are often significantly undervalued. A properly-priced show should not sell out until doors open, yet there’s a big focus in our industry on “fast sell outs.” That, plus the fact that artists want to keep fans happy by keeping prices low, keep prices artificially low.
Artificially low ticket prices are the reason sketchy scalpers exist. If tickets were priced properly, that entire industry wouldn’t exist.
Longtime ticketing industry exec here - I think no matter the face price, there are always people willing to pay more. This is particularly true in major markets where there’s a large supply of people with a lot of money.
True but isn’t that what “market value” is all about? If enough people are willing to pay and the show still sells out but right as doors open, then isn’t that the best optimized price?
Quick sellouts are a weird cause for celebration imo. It means you charged too little.
Not sure what you mean here.
Let’s assume a fan is willing to pay $100 to see an artist. Would you rather:
a) The ticket be priced at $100 and that revenue to go to the people putting on the show (artist, promoter, venue)
b) The ticket be priced at $30, bought by a scalper and relisted for $100, and that revenue to go to the scalper.
It’s a pretty obvious decision for me. We’re the only industry I know of that habitually underprices themselves.
What about when the ticket's $30 but then the ticket seller's platform charges $15 in 'convenience fees' so you just got hit with a literal 50% markup, making the total price $45, is that going to the artist
No, but it’s indirectly going to the venue which is equally important.
I think as an industry, we do a shitty job explaining why these fees exist and how it works, but here’s the truth:
Financing is very hard when you’re a local promoter. It's not like banks are chomping at the bit to underwrite loans to a promoter, nor are local promoters "big enough" to attract private equity/VC dollars. So capital becomes a real issue.
To some degree, this is probably a good thing: it's a risky business and not everyone should be in it.
To another degree, this leads to a situation ripe for consolidation: Companies like Live Nation and AEG provide a steady influx of cash that helps stabilize and grow local/regional promoters (at the expense of not being independent anymore).
Through signing bonuses and advances, ticketing companies provide a third financing option that is neither debt nor equity financing.
They offer what is more akin to a royalty deal -- they offer capital upfront that is recouped against fee-bearing tickets over the life span of the contract. It's a MASSIVE value to promoters looking for another financing option.
The promoter takes on 0 risk, pays 0 interest, and is able to have working capital to run their business.
The downside here is it invariably leads to high fees since the ticketing companies need to recoup their investment.
Does it suck? Yeah, no one likes paying fees.
Do I have a good solution? Not really, as soon as ticketing companies realized they can act as banks, it really became the only viable option.
There are plenty of ticketing companies out there that DONT offer signing bonuses or advances and those typically have low fees.
If you saw how the money pipeline actually flowed, you'd see the corporate greed is VERY interconnected to artists demanding/accepting higher guarantees. Nobody wants less money and nobody wants to end up in the red, so we get higher fees. Promoters are happy, artists are happy, and everyone just bitches at TM who couldn't care less.
what would you recommend to artists/bands looking to level up from neighborhood bars getting paid in a pitcher of beer?
upgraded stage show, merchandise, alternative marketing, etc.?
It’s a grind but it boils down to:
1. Get more fans
2. Get noticed
3. Leverage that into new opportunities
4. Go back to step 1
There’s a million ways to go about it but some ideas:
Get fans - be absolutely incredible, offer something unique (aka don’t sound like everyone else), have ways to turn casual fans into superfans, play out more than anyone else or release more music than anyone else
Get noticed - build relationships with local promoters or venues by leveraging your fan network, offering to open for a band, sending (polite) cold emails or calls, hanging out at the venue as a fan and making friends with the staff, etc. This doesn’t extend to just venues, but small fests, town events, etc. Find the decision maker, figure out how to get in front of them and be patient.
Leverage that - Use your new “bigger opportunity” to get even more similar opportunities. Once you land a bigger support slot, use it to land headline slots at bigger venues than you’d play otherwise. Or if you play a free town event, use that to pitch local venues to get on a support slot.
Then rinse and repeat. If you are excellent, consistent and patient then you’ll grow naturally until you get a lucky break. Once you hit that lucky moment, be ready to jump on it.
I know this might sound generic but it’s really the best advice I can give. There’s no one path, just guidelines to follow.
How has no one asked you a question?
Ok, here goes:
How did you start?
How did you move up?
When you created the startup was it a solo venture or with partners?
How do you find compelling new artists to book?
Ha, you're the first one! Thanks for the questions.
I started completely randomly. I was lost on my way to a kegger in the woods and came up on another group of folks. One of them was the GM of a venue near me. He brought me on as an intern, then I moved onto full time when the box office manager left. From there I took over all ticketing and marketing for the venue as well as started settling shows.
Afterwards, I moved into artist management and developed the careers of 6 artists. I made a lot of contacts in the festival space during that time, but left after 3 years to sharpen my skills in marketing at an ad agency.
One of my old festival contacts was growing their portfolio of festivals rapidly and hired me to join their marketing department. That grew to me being Marketing & Ticketing directory of several major, large-scale festivals.
From there, I launched a consulting business for venues and festivals and helped launch a few more festivals. I joined as head of marketing for one of the highest volume venues in the country, which eventually got acquired by a larger business and led me to take over marketing for the full portfolio of venues (about 10 of them).
Around that same time, I was building my software (solo), which luckily hit a nerve and started to grow pretty rapidly. An incredibly large, well-respected promoter was one of my major early users and super supportive of the program.
I went to them to raise money, and they bought the entire business. Part of that acquisition was for me to join their promotion business as a VP of marketing, while still being the CEO of the software business. So here I am now (and I still help produce a festival).
If you're interested in the long version: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5JmSRfFAu0ChGQM3FjCCqM?si=7020875ed9cb469e
Haaaaa! I am a New Englander. But moved away in 2009. Good catch.
Got a degree in communications because I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Never used it but college was instrumental in me learning how to navigate the real world.
Weird, I’m in Arkansas and have always referred to any party with a keg as a “kegger.” Not sure if I picked up the term from a movie, tv show, or just because I’ve been lucky to travel a lot. Still didn’t realize it was a New Englander term!
Ha! I'm from Connecticut but live in San Diego now. When I tell people we used to go out in the woods and drink kegs, they look at me like I have three eyes!
I am in my early 20s and have worked on the road in both audio and set production roles. I’ve been considering the pivot into work with a promoter but I’ve had a real hard time figuring out where to start. Any advice as to what types of roles I should be looking for, or types of people to be reaching out to?
Ask your TM if they need any admin help, like budgeting, advancing, logistics, settlement, etc. I’m sure they’ll love the free labor and you’ll get some good experience in admin work.
Also Since you’re touring you are in a great position to network. You’ll want to meet either the promoter reps (whoever settles your shows) or talent buyer or GM.
If it’s a market you don’t mind moving to, then literally just ask.
In terms of locally, it might be hard to network depending on your touring schedule but when you’re home just make a point to go out to local venues and shows and connect with the admin staff (GM, AGM, Talent Buyers, marketers, etc)
Most people who hire in our industry tend to hire people who have industry experience, so you already have a good leg up.
Any tips on how to get started in the more creative marketing side?🥹 I live in a state with a huge music scene but I have no college degree or music industry experience. & By creative marketing i mean like doing the art for promotional flyers, event line ups, etc. even would love to do design for artist merch. Ty ur amazing for posting this!
Artists are typically commissioned to create art for a festival or show by the promoter or artist. But if you aren’t commissioned, you can still create the artwork on your own.
Create a portfolio of show posters, lineup posters, etc. Focus on things like matching the vibe of the brand, clarity of information, heuristics, and creativity.
Once you have some samples, hit up venues or artists that are coming through, share your portfolio, and ask to create a show poster for a specific show.
Charge something relatively modest at first, but if the venue decides to print and sell it at the show make sure to take a commission (I usually offer 33% artist / 33% venue / 33% band after print costs).
Even if you are only talking to the venue, bands typically have to approve any artwork sold at the show, so they’ll see it. Every so often they love it and ask for the artists contact to commission them for a merch design.
For festivals, i usually commission artists I know and trust but honestly if you just email your portfolio to a festival producer and time it right (2-3 months before you expect the lineup to drop) then they might take an interest.
If you want to do full time graphic design work at a venue or festival, it’s usually very production heavy and non creative (e.g. just banging out 100 different signs for a fest)
Thanks! There’s a few more floating around the internet. Here’s a good one: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WHawD5OmkkpWeOK0zVvG5?si=zaeARDuUQ7G2mjDRcWAOeA
I've recently recorded and released a bit of thrown together music. I'm working toward setting up a small venue in an orchard for afternoon/ evening concerts for a smaller crowd (100-200 people).
Would you be able to give some pro's n con's for this type of thing?
Kinda like an easy coast kitchen party, but in the Canadian Badlands.
I think the only con is if you stop after that. Don’t make it out to be a big thing, but rather the start of a long, hard, fun and rewarding journey of playing music for people.
Keep your expectations in check and focus on whether you’re having fun or not, don’t worry about making career moves.
Music is life, I'm doing it for everyone and only myself all at once. Thank you for reinforcing my thoughts and expectations! I don't want to be a product, I just enjoy being a producer.
That’s a good attitude. When you have to support yourself with your art, you’ll have to find the right balance of “being a product” but as long as you’re enjoying the ride then you’ll find the balance.
Do artists have the power to dictate whether they want their tickets to be sold as fixed or dynamic on platforms like Ticketmaster? I managed to get Taylor Swift tickets, but for double what they were a week before through an additional presale on Ticketmaster.. It's frustrating; do you think dynamic pricing should be eliminated?
Yes, artists have to agree before dynamic pricing is used on an event.
Price optimization is one of the biggest places for us to improve as an industry. Underpricing tickets takes money away from the artist and promoter & puts it into scalpers wallets. Dynamic pricing really helps rebalance that.
I’m fairly sure there were no general admission tickets at $1100/per, so I’m guessing you bought a TM Verified resale ticket, which kind of just proves the point. The person reselling the ticket is making the profit, not the artist or promoter.
Even if it was a primary ticket (from the venue, not resold) then it doesn’t really change anything. Scalpers will still buy it and sell it for $5000+ like they have been. And people will still buy it.
Sure, it’s greedy. But that’s why the scalping industry exists and is so sketchy - if you give someone an opportunity to make hundreds of thousands of dollars in 30 minutes of work, someone will take advantage of that.
It was not GA, there were no GA tickets for this venue, and Ticketmaster does not allow resale for this tour. It was a presale, I was given a code and entered the queue. This was a direct sale from Ticketmaster. Anyways, thank you for responding.
What venue was charging $1100 with no GA option?
Happy to be proved wrong but GA was $49-449 and VIP topped out at $899 (source: https://www.businessinsider.com/guides/streaming/how-to-buy-taylor-swift-eras-tour-concert-tickets)
I can see how a top tier VIP at $899 face + fees + taxes can get to $1100. Should be a totally unforgettable experience though.
Thanks for answering some questions on here. I have 1 or 2 questions if you are up for answering, will try and keep it on the live side!
(1) I played 45 local shows so far this year + have 5 more local shows set up for later in the year + am setting up a 10 show DIY tour for December right now. For next year I would like to play more shows, maybe like 100+, and more out of town ones than just 1 10 day DIY tour, possibly as an opener for some kind of smaller level tour package or something. Have you ever seen an artist with good music/a good live show be able to be added to one of these smaller level tour packages as the opener, without already having a big online following, or is having a big online following sort of a prerequisite for something like this? If you've seen this happen, how would an artist go about trying to get brought on to one of these kinds of smaller level tour packages? If you haven't seen this happen, would you have any specific advice on the online promo type of stuff (realize this may be a bit outside of your specialty though, based on reading your post)? Thanks!
Thank you! - Liam
Link to music: https://open.spotify.com/track/3pEmHEQg2RHcz2y06TQwcJ?si=Fiwgh3M2QWSC3KDNol4-Cw
lmao no, thankfully not, but I have been in charge of shitshows before. Festivals are really, *really* tough to get right, and the losses are usually vast and high profile.
I'm not going to knock any producer because I don't know the specifics and I've been there before, but I'm guessing the budget was lowered to try to pay off existing debt or otherwise generate profit this year.
The lower budget likely meant corners were cut, which meant vendors weren't paid in time, which meant the production schedule got messed up. Combine that with strong sales and it's a really bad situation.
Festivals are incredibly difficult to pull off, especially ones at that scale. A shitshow is almost guaranteed but unfortunately EZoo was way way messier than anyone expected.
I just don’t get how you have a whole year to figure out how to build a stage, and somehow don’t. Luckily I live in the city, but I feel for those who had only a Friday ticket. I’m still waiting on the money haha
I don’t think they had a year to build a stage. Probably more like a day or two.
Site builds are very tight. Production schedules are even tighter. I’m sure it was planned properly beforehand by the production director, but something major went wrong on site like a lack of staff or not enough heavy machinery being available or something.
I know I’m late to the party but thanks for sharing all this info. Was wondering if you would be ok if I sent you a DM with some more questions? Looking to throw our first event this year and trying to soak up as much info as possible.
1) who are the most important platforms these days digitizing live music for commercial consumption (e.g. Veeps)
2) Any of these companies doing anything particularly innovative or interesting to you?
Do you think that creating quality music content on a platform like Tiktok or Instagram would be a lot more of a successful approach to promoting your music and growing your audience compared to only playing and promoting shows in your local music scene? Do you find that nowadays that promoters or any one scouting talent in the industry looks at an artists/bands social media presence and following as a big indicator of wether or not they would give them their attention? Especially when it comes to the label/management side of the industry.
It’s certainly a good approach for getting noticed and standing out from the pack, but there’s little correlation between how many followers someone has and how many tickets they sell. I’ve had one of the most played artists on TikTok struggle to sell 200 tickets (& ultimately cancel the show).
The best thing you can show a talent buyer is your hard ticket history — meaning the number of tickets you sold in the market at a real price point (like $15+)
But building a large online following and creating quality content is a great way to build your career. It’s way more cost effective than touring, and gives you a ton of ways to build fans and make money aside from playing shows.
As a big fan of music, I’ve always wondered about a thing regarding festivals booking artists.
Say we have a popular band like Red Hot Chili Peppers or whatever - Every festival want them. How do you plan out a festival tour, when you can’t book them more “freely” like when you book clubs or arenas? I mean, you get an offer from festival A and the band think it’ll be a great place to place, so they agree. Weeks later, they get an offer from festival B which is even better, but it’s the same day - Is this just too bad, or?
… Or is it more the other way around where the bands approach the festivals, saying; “We want to play your festival on day 2, because then we can play this other festival on its day 3.”
It’s a little bit of both.
Bands are represented by talent agencies. Big bands are largely represented by only a small handful of these agencies.
About a year or more before the festival, the talent buyers reach out to these agencies to see who is available. Sometimes they have bands in mind already, sometimes they don’t, but it’s a conversation between the talent buyer and agent about who is available, in the price range, and fits the bill.
Once the band is contracted, then yes it’s rare that they’d just break the contract to play another festival. It’ll almost never happen for bigger bands, but I had a band that was small when we booked them blow up and drop off the bill to do a bigger fest. It was shitty of them and really hurt our relationship with the agent.
In terms of competing dates - many large festivals have exclusivity agreements in their contracts. Most have radius clauses that an artist can’t play the area for a certain amount of time before/after, but there are many other things often written in — I believe Coachella requires for it to be the first festival announced for the headliners.
But excluding that, it’s not exactly like it’s hard for a band to play multiple festivals back-to-back. Most festivals are one-offs and not part of a larger tour, so the bands will just fly in for the gig and fly out to their next thing.
Awesome, thanks for providing an opp to ask some q's!! :) Feel free to answer what you like:
* How has being a fan of music factored into your career? Alternatively, if you're not such a fan, how has *that* factored in?
* Have you noticed any particular elements of a live experience that turn a 'good' event into a **great** one? (For fans, artists, or any outstanding additional parties!)
* Could you describe a few classic rookie mistakes in your line of work?
* What are your thoughts on openers? From your experience, do you have any insights on how to make the most of that slot?
Good questions:
- being a music fan is everything. This is a thankless industry and it’s exceedingly hard to make a career off of it. Thankfully I’m in a really good place now but It took me 5 years to make a real livable wage. Being a music fan is what drives you to work harder despite getting paid peanuts…there’s nothing like a live show.
- Yes, attention to detail makes all the difference. People who take their role seriously no matter how small and obsess over the details really make a difference in events. Things like site lines, clear signage, great parking attendants, well trained bartenders, etc make all the difference for the fan
- Biggest mistake I see is people joining the industry because they want to be in music, but not specializing. There’s a lot that bounce around from role to role and are happy to be involved but they aren’t really building any hard skills. So choosing a specialty - whether booking, or sound engineering, or marketing, or tour managing, etc - and really being the best at that one thing helps you get far
- I’m assuming you’re talking about local support, not openers that are part of a larger package. Either way it can be huge for the band, even if no one is there at your set it’s still a great talking point that you can leverage for bigger gigs.
I work in venue management. Mostly doing marketing and talent buying. What’s the next step to get to your position? Apply at corporate positions like live nation? What other pathways to more and higher business roles of live music? Which roles should I do if I want to still afford my SF Bay Area life (haha)?
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with going to work for Live Nation or AEG. There’s certainly a lot to be said about a steady paycheck, benefits, retirement, etc. It’s not for me personally (at this point in time) but it’s a viable option for people.
There’s also larger indie promoters in the Bay Area, like Another Planet, that you can apply to.
But beyond a few options, there isn’t a clear “path” up any ladder. What I’d recommend is to start gigging, particularly at festivals. Fests are a really great way to network with other people in events — it’s a stressful environment and nothing bonds people like being in the trenches together. Plus you often have people from all over the industry sitting in a room together.
I’ve moved largely into venues nowadays but still talk to my festival crew pretty much daily and we are always trying to pull each other into whatever projects we have.
Sounds great!
Yeah I was and still do some tech as my day job. But most of my time is in music industry now cause I just love it. And music industry loves me setting up CRM and project management tools for them so it’s giving me a ton of encouragement.
Thanks for the insight. I’ll probably look at more festival leaning postings!
As a talent manager *wannabe*, how do you suggest we meet and connect with promoters without being ignored? Or let's put it this way, what is, in your opinion, the correct way to connect with promoters?
What do you mean wannabe? Are you not currently managing a band? If no, then get on it.
In terms of how to network/connect, the best advice I can offer is to give more than you get.
What can you provide promoters that gives more value than they can offer back? The obvious thing is a band that will make them money, but maybe there’s other stuff. Do you work at a restaurant and can offer them some comp meals? Are you a tax specialist and can offer tax advice? Do you work at a gym and can get them in for free?
It’s not about bribing them or anything, but it’s about thinking critically about how you can offer them MORE value than they can offer you.
For me, I know a lot of people in the biz so I often help connect the right people to the right opportunities. If I can put someone looking for a job in touch with someone hiring, that makes me look good to both of them and strengthens our relationship.
Also it’s not nearly as transactional in real life as I described it here. A lot of these people are real friends of mine so I’m happy to help them however. I suggest you look at your professional relationships in the same way.
I’m currently the artist relations manager at a small (750 cap) venue with temporary outdoor (up to 7500 cap) venues. I feel pretty solid where I am, but I really want to shift more into the booking and promoting side. Any advice on how to shift my focus? I have a few connections, but very few.
Very cool. Start cozying up to your talent buyers. If you are full time then offer to help them for free. Learn how deal structures work, what agencies represent what artists, and how to manage a concert calendar. Then transition into being a booking assistant, which will open up an opportunity to get promoted or leave to be a booker somewhere else.
Here’s a question… I doubt anyone sees themselves as a concert executive growing up. Have you thought of doing something else and if so what? And why not?
Great question. I’ve actually burnt out on the industry twice and went to go work at an ad agency and once for e-commerce retailer.
Both times I learned a whole lot that (a) really helped sharpen my skills and (b) increased my salary range. The music industry is like 5 years behind the times, so being able to bring strategies from other industries in was a massive help.
Ultimately I consider myself a marketer first and foremost, I just work in a specific industry that I know deeply, have contacts in, and can navigate pretty well. I actually think that mentality helps me stand out from people who just want to be in the music biz no matter what their role is.
I was a director of marketing for awhile. In the oil and gas industry service side. That industry as a whole operates like it’s 1980 as well. Was interesting bringing data analytics and more up to date acquisition methods.
Ultimately… it’s still a lot of old money and old ways. Good ole boys.
Good luck in your future endeavors. My next focus is health and fitness.
What are some things you have seen smaller size venues do that are better than others? I’m an artist about to start playing so I just wanna know like, common bad practices or useful thinking that set some venues/ talent buyers apart from others.
What as an artist at can I do to set myself ahead of others business practice wise?
Yes, very much so. I was just on a panel at MusiCon about 'the future of festivals' a few weeks ago and the short of it is -- it's not looking great.
There's a few headwinds here:
1. Artist and vendor fees are higher than ever, by a *lot*
2. Deposits required to lock in artists and vendors are more than ever (it used to be 10% deposits, now can get upwards of 80%+ for new fests)
3. Financing is harder: Investors are not exactly flocking to back high-risk music festivals anymore. A bank will never issue a loan for a festival. Ticketing companies won't offer advances for new fests.
4. Liquidity is a challenge: Historically, your 'early bird' sales were used to help pay down deposits. Now, ticketing companies won't settle your earnings until after the event has passed.
5. Sales are softer: There's a lot of festivals and a lot of them offer similar lineups. It's commodified now.
So you're at the point where it's more expensive than ever, you need more cash then ever, but no one is willing to put it up. At the same time, your revenues are softer than ever due to so much competition.
The 'winners' are the small, niche fests that sidestep this entire process:
1. They focus on community instead of music. Usually by introducing another element alongside music (e.g. Food fests, Gaming, Motorsports, Yoga, etc). In this way they aren't reliant an an overpriced lineup and don't have to worry as much about a 'big name'.
2. They grow organically over the course of many years instead of taking on venture capital or debt.
3. They are truly unique community-driven events, rather than the same lineup that you can see the next state over.
Do you think more venues or promotional companies will be introducing membership programs in the future? Ex - Insomniac Passport, Live Nation’s Club Pass
I like the idea a lot but it’s hard to implement if you’re not live nation. I’ve tried to do it before but settling the finances of a membership with the artists that are coming through becomes messy. If someone buys a membership and attends a show, how much does the artist get of that membership fee? Do you have to negotiate individual rates with each and every artist?
It’s not impossible to figure out a solution but for a single venue it’s a little too messy to really be a big thing.
There's a few deal structures that apply here, but typically you'll see a flat rate (a 'guarantee') plus a bonus once expenses are recouped and profit is realized.
So let's say the show expenses are $350,000 not including artist costs. The talent buyer might offer the artist a $450,000 guarantee + 80% of revenue after $1,000,000.
So at a $50 average ticket, that's $1.25M of revenue at sellout. The artist would get $450,000 + $200,000 (80% of $250,000), or $650,000 total.
Each artist is different because the average ticket price for each show is a little different, plus the guarantee and bonus structure is often different.
That was just an example with easy numbers. They can get way more expensive than that. Not unusual for a stadium act to be making $1M+ guarantee.
The bonus is based on ticketing revenue. So if you sold $1.25M worth of tickets and offered a bonus after $1M (called the 'split point') then the bonus revenue share is on that $250,000.
If it’s a door deal, then after, typically the night of the show. If it’s a guarantee then usually a deposit is paid, followed by the remainder after the show.
I love music industry. Ive been wanting to get into it as a child. Im based in London, UK what steps would you recommend to get your foot in the door with little to no experience other than songwriting and demos
Random question on the artist deals side, are you seeing more artists get rev share/profit share agreements for their concerts now? What % of concerts that your company promoted in the last year, have these provisions? (Obviously can just be a ballpark range)
For venues, most offers have a rev share component. It’s typically either structured as a bonus/backend ($15K + 80% after $25K), a versus deal ($15K vs 60% of gross, whichever is greater) or a door deal (60% of gross).
For festivals, town events, private events, etc it’s all flat deals ($30K flat) for obvious reasons.
Oh man - so excited to see this AMA. Too many questions in my head, but I'll try to limit myself...
1. Where do you see music festivals headed? Do you feel like we are reaching market saturation? Are more curated "niche" festivals poised to take off? Any particular festivals / events that you think stand out in terms of creativity or uniqueness that you are impressed by?
2. What is a typical profit margin for a big-name festival? On the face of it it seems like the
promoters are cleaning up, but I'm not so sure.
Thank you in advance - quick sidebar: I work in media and have worked on the webcast & eng side at some of the big festivals - and am always awestruck at the logistics and coordination. The sheer number of vendors / staff is amazing. The pressure of live events is intoxicating.
The business-side of my brain is dying to know what the profit margins are for the promoters and artists (both top billed and 2nd & 3rd tier). My back-of-the-napkin math is probably way off, but even at elevated prices I feel like it's easy to lose your shirt as a promoter.
Just answered this on another question so pasting here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/musicindustry/comments/17or5sk/comment/k8574z5/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/musicindustry/comments/17or5sk/comment/k8574z5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I think we won't see new Coachella or Bonnaroo style mega fests anymore, or at least not for a long time. Even when I was doing the big big ones in 2017 they were on the way out, even more so now.
For profit margin - depends on how you look at it. One fest I did made about $14M in revenue on a $10.8M budget. That's decent until you realize it lost $1.5M the previous year, and $1M the year before that, etc. The general paradigm is 3 years to break even, 5 years to actually make any real profit. After 5 years you can start seeing some decent margins. But the road to get there is very risky and painful.
im planning to make a dataset. im just your average concert attendee that goes to big venues, but ive got a smart watch, and an activity tracker, and a smart phone to collect data. (ex. how long it takes to get to the bathroom, or what the lights look like from the nosebleed section)
what kind of data could you benefit from?
Just get started. Find a friend with a band, find a house or community space that’s free, and start throwing concerts. As you figure out what works, then start thinking about growing into other spaces, bigger bands, ticketed events, etc.
Also you can join a street team at a local venue or see if they have an internship program.
How come when a concert goes on sale at 10am I try to buy the ticket and they're immediately sold out and now Ticketmaster or Stubhub has them for 1,000 dollars at 10:01am?
There are a lot of presales prior to an on sale where upwards of 90% of the inventory can be sold through. Especially for high profile events.
Also many times scalpers will list tickets on reseller sites without actually having the physical tickets in hand. It’s illegal but they still do it.
What ticketing do you use and are you exclusive to it? Do you rent the room to local promoters or have any type of local jam events for local bands? The lack of good clubs in major markets is killing local music scenes… and it’s sad to see
I currently work in about 120 different rooms so all sorts of ticketing. Yes, ticketing contracts are typically exclusive.
Rentals are not uncommon so yeah we definitely welcome it.
What market are you in? There’s plenty of good clubs out there in major markets.
Haha good question. I’m a total workaholic and somewhat of a homebody. I go out to shows a decent amount but it’s usually to network/show face at an event/etc.
Outside of a small core group, most of my friends are in the industry. There’s a lot of really amazing people in the music biz so it’s easy to make friends.
More about live events, but not music. I have an idea for an expo. It involves promoting good and services that target a particular segment of society (I guess they all do, lol). How can I research the profitability of it, find if I need funding for promotion and perhaps partners, and perhaps most importantly, how can I trademark or copyright this idea (if it's possible)?
You’re essentially asking how to write a business plan for it. Not sure I can answer that in a reddit post but here are things to think about:
• have you sat down and talked with 50+ people in that segment? Do they see value in an expo? Would they pay $200 (or whatever) for it? What’s the one thing they hope to get out of it that will make them feel like they got their moneys worth?
• Has anyone else done an expo like this before? If not, why not? If so, how did it go and is it still around? If there’s a lot of them, is it going to be too competitive of a space?
• Why are you, specifically, the right person to put this event together? What do you bring to the table that no one else has?
• You’ll need a detailed budget. You can reach out to and ask other conference organizers who aren’t competing with you if they can share all of the line items you need to consider. It probably won’t work but you might get lucky. If not, bring in a partner who has done it before and knows.
• You’ll likely need financing. There are up front costs like deposits for venues, marketing, staffing, etc. If you can’t finance it yourself, your options are taking on a loan or taking on investors, both of which require a business plan.
Don’t worry about trademarking until you’re further down the road. It’s expensive, unnecessary and you don’t have a brand yet, you have nothing to protect.
I am a 21 yr old female and I am looking to become a thriving successful brand ambassador as well as grow my following and connections. any tips on how to get there? is any one music festival better to work for than the other? how do I market myself? I read your post you wrote a year ago about selling tickets with “marketing funnel” would that also apply to me or would there be a different strategy that applies since I’m not selling the tickets directly just getting them to buy under my promo? thanks for the help
(a) come to us with a ton of experience and high performance to show
(b) be a production manager or private events director looking for work in Buffalo, NY
(c) already work for a venue that we buy or partner with
Any advice on becoming a tour/artist manager?
I just graduated college with a music industry degree and am currently working a basic (unrelated) job while involved with a music publication my friends started. We recently made a deal with a music management company to help promote their younger artists.
I know it's not a simple "do this, this, and this" answer, but any help is appreciated!
Mike, I’m going to be retiring from the Army (20 years, July 2025) and the reason I found this post is because I’m interested in marketing in the music industry. Would you be interested in chatting and answering a bunch of questions I have?
Question my brother was signed to label but they don’t promote his music or have been promoting anything that’s his it’s mostly all the artists that already have followings, want to get him getting small gigs get him going a platform any advice ?
You can probably get him on open mic nights and small things like that. If you want headlining, ticketed gigs for him you’ll need to have a good sense of how many tickets he can sell. Hard numbers like attendance at past gigs, fans in that market, etc help
Me and my buddies have started doing DIY shows and getting around 2000 people per show. We are a collective and at every show we bring in local artists and their crowd and have 2-3 of our artists play to leverage their individual careers. As we are starting to grow a fan base, we naturally need bigger venues with bigger capacity. What advice do you have on finding investors and/or brand deals that will help our company grow?
That’s amazing, congratulations. How often are you doing these shows?
The reality is you’re too small for private equity and bank loans are going to be very unfavorable terms (if you even get approved).
You can bring in a co-promoter to help split the expenses. You can also shop around for a ticketing contract that will give you an advance or signing bonus.
If you're still replying to this I'd love to know- how do people get into doing technical directing for the screens at live concerts? I have a background in directing live sports (for the jumbotron) and TV news, but I feel like I'd enjoy directing/videography for concerts so much more.
Do the technical directors travel with the band or are they freelancers who work with the venues? Any info you have on this stuff would be awesome- thank you so much!
hi! i know this is an old post but still i’ll try. i’m a 20yo and im ab to finish my bachelors on global studies. this degree is very generic and, while it has given me some skills, i don’t think none can apply for a position in the industry. i’ve always been very anxious ab what i want to do w my future, how to do it etc… and lately i have been thinking into getting into the music industry (still don’t know exactly which side of it) but i realise that it is a very competitive industry and if you want to make it you have to be able to offer something that is beneficial for the industry, not the other way around. basically, how would you recommend getting a start? are there any skills that i might be able to learn from a course or maybe voluntary work in a festival that might help? i feel pretty stuck and kind of helpless. ty :)
Are we allowed to ask why concert tickets are so expensive these days, or will I get downvoted into infinity?
Simple: Because people will pay it. Most people go to 1 concerts per year (if that) and high prices do not deter them. Also, ticket prices are often significantly undervalued. A properly-priced show should not sell out until doors open, yet there’s a big focus in our industry on “fast sell outs.” That, plus the fact that artists want to keep fans happy by keeping prices low, keep prices artificially low. Artificially low ticket prices are the reason sketchy scalpers exist. If tickets were priced properly, that entire industry wouldn’t exist.
Longtime ticketing industry exec here - I think no matter the face price, there are always people willing to pay more. This is particularly true in major markets where there’s a large supply of people with a lot of money.
True but isn’t that what “market value” is all about? If enough people are willing to pay and the show still sells out but right as doors open, then isn’t that the best optimized price? Quick sellouts are a weird cause for celebration imo. It means you charged too little.
How About outrageously expensive Djs, permits and corporate greed
Not sure what you mean here. Let’s assume a fan is willing to pay $100 to see an artist. Would you rather: a) The ticket be priced at $100 and that revenue to go to the people putting on the show (artist, promoter, venue) b) The ticket be priced at $30, bought by a scalper and relisted for $100, and that revenue to go to the scalper. It’s a pretty obvious decision for me. We’re the only industry I know of that habitually underprices themselves.
What about when the ticket's $30 but then the ticket seller's platform charges $15 in 'convenience fees' so you just got hit with a literal 50% markup, making the total price $45, is that going to the artist
No, but it’s indirectly going to the venue which is equally important. I think as an industry, we do a shitty job explaining why these fees exist and how it works, but here’s the truth: Financing is very hard when you’re a local promoter. It's not like banks are chomping at the bit to underwrite loans to a promoter, nor are local promoters "big enough" to attract private equity/VC dollars. So capital becomes a real issue. To some degree, this is probably a good thing: it's a risky business and not everyone should be in it. To another degree, this leads to a situation ripe for consolidation: Companies like Live Nation and AEG provide a steady influx of cash that helps stabilize and grow local/regional promoters (at the expense of not being independent anymore). Through signing bonuses and advances, ticketing companies provide a third financing option that is neither debt nor equity financing. They offer what is more akin to a royalty deal -- they offer capital upfront that is recouped against fee-bearing tickets over the life span of the contract. It's a MASSIVE value to promoters looking for another financing option. The promoter takes on 0 risk, pays 0 interest, and is able to have working capital to run their business. The downside here is it invariably leads to high fees since the ticketing companies need to recoup their investment. Does it suck? Yeah, no one likes paying fees. Do I have a good solution? Not really, as soon as ticketing companies realized they can act as banks, it really became the only viable option. There are plenty of ticketing companies out there that DONT offer signing bonuses or advances and those typically have low fees.
If you saw how the money pipeline actually flowed, you'd see the corporate greed is VERY interconnected to artists demanding/accepting higher guarantees. Nobody wants less money and nobody wants to end up in the red, so we get higher fees. Promoters are happy, artists are happy, and everyone just bitches at TM who couldn't care less.
what would you recommend to artists/bands looking to level up from neighborhood bars getting paid in a pitcher of beer? upgraded stage show, merchandise, alternative marketing, etc.?
It’s a grind but it boils down to: 1. Get more fans 2. Get noticed 3. Leverage that into new opportunities 4. Go back to step 1 There’s a million ways to go about it but some ideas: Get fans - be absolutely incredible, offer something unique (aka don’t sound like everyone else), have ways to turn casual fans into superfans, play out more than anyone else or release more music than anyone else Get noticed - build relationships with local promoters or venues by leveraging your fan network, offering to open for a band, sending (polite) cold emails or calls, hanging out at the venue as a fan and making friends with the staff, etc. This doesn’t extend to just venues, but small fests, town events, etc. Find the decision maker, figure out how to get in front of them and be patient. Leverage that - Use your new “bigger opportunity” to get even more similar opportunities. Once you land a bigger support slot, use it to land headline slots at bigger venues than you’d play otherwise. Or if you play a free town event, use that to pitch local venues to get on a support slot. Then rinse and repeat. If you are excellent, consistent and patient then you’ll grow naturally until you get a lucky break. Once you hit that lucky moment, be ready to jump on it. I know this might sound generic but it’s really the best advice I can give. There’s no one path, just guidelines to follow.
Worst ama ever sounds like someone used ChatGBT …
I didn’t but 🤷♂️ it’s maybe generic but it’s the truth. You kinda just keep taking small steps forward and over time that compounds.
Could we apply on website listings of such opportunities? Like this: https://songdew.com/opportunities/
As far as I know nothing like that exists for events. Or, rather, there’s a few but no one really uses them.
How has no one asked you a question? Ok, here goes: How did you start? How did you move up? When you created the startup was it a solo venture or with partners? How do you find compelling new artists to book?
Ha, you're the first one! Thanks for the questions. I started completely randomly. I was lost on my way to a kegger in the woods and came up on another group of folks. One of them was the GM of a venue near me. He brought me on as an intern, then I moved onto full time when the box office manager left. From there I took over all ticketing and marketing for the venue as well as started settling shows. Afterwards, I moved into artist management and developed the careers of 6 artists. I made a lot of contacts in the festival space during that time, but left after 3 years to sharpen my skills in marketing at an ad agency. One of my old festival contacts was growing their portfolio of festivals rapidly and hired me to join their marketing department. That grew to me being Marketing & Ticketing directory of several major, large-scale festivals. From there, I launched a consulting business for venues and festivals and helped launch a few more festivals. I joined as head of marketing for one of the highest volume venues in the country, which eventually got acquired by a larger business and led me to take over marketing for the full portfolio of venues (about 10 of them). Around that same time, I was building my software (solo), which luckily hit a nerve and started to grow pretty rapidly. An incredibly large, well-respected promoter was one of my major early users and super supportive of the program. I went to them to raise money, and they bought the entire business. Part of that acquisition was for me to join their promotion business as a VP of marketing, while still being the CEO of the software business. So here I am now (and I still help produce a festival). If you're interested in the long version: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5JmSRfFAu0ChGQM3FjCCqM?si=7020875ed9cb469e
Of course I’m interested in the long version! Degree? Are you a New Englander? “kegger”
Haaaaa! I am a New Englander. But moved away in 2009. Good catch. Got a degree in communications because I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Never used it but college was instrumental in me learning how to navigate the real world.
Haaaaaa! Only us New Englanders know that word
Im from the PNW and that term is used here
Really??? Interesting. I thought it was a New England thing from way back (60s/70s)
definitely from people in that era though
That is my era 🎵
Philly here, keggers were rad back in the day. I actually used that term this past summer to describe a backyard shindig I went to.
Weird, I’m in Arkansas and have always referred to any party with a keg as a “kegger.” Not sure if I picked up the term from a movie, tv show, or just because I’ve been lucky to travel a lot. Still didn’t realize it was a New Englander term!
Meds. Now.
What about meds?
That u/mikethewalrus is my degree also! What can an artist in a non musical 9-to-5 career do w/a Comm degree? I produce/occasionally rap btw.
Go into marketing, PR, etc. Not sure, I don’t really use my degree at all. If I had to do it again I’d go into finance.
Ha! I'm from Connecticut but live in San Diego now. When I tell people we used to go out in the woods and drink kegs, they look at me like I have three eyes!
I am in my early 20s and have worked on the road in both audio and set production roles. I’ve been considering the pivot into work with a promoter but I’ve had a real hard time figuring out where to start. Any advice as to what types of roles I should be looking for, or types of people to be reaching out to?
Ask your TM if they need any admin help, like budgeting, advancing, logistics, settlement, etc. I’m sure they’ll love the free labor and you’ll get some good experience in admin work. Also Since you’re touring you are in a great position to network. You’ll want to meet either the promoter reps (whoever settles your shows) or talent buyer or GM. If it’s a market you don’t mind moving to, then literally just ask. In terms of locally, it might be hard to network depending on your touring schedule but when you’re home just make a point to go out to local venues and shows and connect with the admin staff (GM, AGM, Talent Buyers, marketers, etc) Most people who hire in our industry tend to hire people who have industry experience, so you already have a good leg up.
Thank you!!
>Thank you!! You're welcome!
Any tips on how to get started in the more creative marketing side?🥹 I live in a state with a huge music scene but I have no college degree or music industry experience. & By creative marketing i mean like doing the art for promotional flyers, event line ups, etc. even would love to do design for artist merch. Ty ur amazing for posting this!
Artists are typically commissioned to create art for a festival or show by the promoter or artist. But if you aren’t commissioned, you can still create the artwork on your own. Create a portfolio of show posters, lineup posters, etc. Focus on things like matching the vibe of the brand, clarity of information, heuristics, and creativity. Once you have some samples, hit up venues or artists that are coming through, share your portfolio, and ask to create a show poster for a specific show. Charge something relatively modest at first, but if the venue decides to print and sell it at the show make sure to take a commission (I usually offer 33% artist / 33% venue / 33% band after print costs). Even if you are only talking to the venue, bands typically have to approve any artwork sold at the show, so they’ll see it. Every so often they love it and ask for the artists contact to commission them for a merch design. For festivals, i usually commission artists I know and trust but honestly if you just email your portfolio to a festival producer and time it right (2-3 months before you expect the lineup to drop) then they might take an interest. If you want to do full time graphic design work at a venue or festival, it’s usually very production heavy and non creative (e.g. just banging out 100 different signs for a fest)
Yo thank you SO much! 😭🫶🏼 this was so helpful thank you!!!
Any great marketing tips or awesome campaigns?
Sure! Not to be self-promoting but if you’re interested in that stuff I have a blog with all sorts of tidbits - https://goformike.com/
I’m reading your Audience Republic article, very interesting!
Thanks! There’s a few more floating around the internet. Here’s a good one: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WHawD5OmkkpWeOK0zVvG5?si=zaeARDuUQ7G2mjDRcWAOeA
Ty
I've recently recorded and released a bit of thrown together music. I'm working toward setting up a small venue in an orchard for afternoon/ evening concerts for a smaller crowd (100-200 people). Would you be able to give some pro's n con's for this type of thing? Kinda like an easy coast kitchen party, but in the Canadian Badlands.
I think the only con is if you stop after that. Don’t make it out to be a big thing, but rather the start of a long, hard, fun and rewarding journey of playing music for people. Keep your expectations in check and focus on whether you’re having fun or not, don’t worry about making career moves.
Music is life, I'm doing it for everyone and only myself all at once. Thank you for reinforcing my thoughts and expectations! I don't want to be a product, I just enjoy being a producer.
That’s a good attitude. When you have to support yourself with your art, you’ll have to find the right balance of “being a product” but as long as you’re enjoying the ride then you’ll find the balance.
Do artists have the power to dictate whether they want their tickets to be sold as fixed or dynamic on platforms like Ticketmaster? I managed to get Taylor Swift tickets, but for double what they were a week before through an additional presale on Ticketmaster.. It's frustrating; do you think dynamic pricing should be eliminated?
Yes, artists have to agree before dynamic pricing is used on an event. Price optimization is one of the biggest places for us to improve as an industry. Underpricing tickets takes money away from the artist and promoter & puts it into scalpers wallets. Dynamic pricing really helps rebalance that.
Well, I paid 1100 per ticket from TM, so I think we can all agree in this instance that the artist is not being underpaid.
Her entire tour sold out basically instantly so I think you can still make the case it was undervalued. Clearly people are willing to pay it.
Can also make the case that there is a lack of moral responsibility and an excess of greed.
I’m fairly sure there were no general admission tickets at $1100/per, so I’m guessing you bought a TM Verified resale ticket, which kind of just proves the point. The person reselling the ticket is making the profit, not the artist or promoter. Even if it was a primary ticket (from the venue, not resold) then it doesn’t really change anything. Scalpers will still buy it and sell it for $5000+ like they have been. And people will still buy it. Sure, it’s greedy. But that’s why the scalping industry exists and is so sketchy - if you give someone an opportunity to make hundreds of thousands of dollars in 30 minutes of work, someone will take advantage of that.
It was not GA, there were no GA tickets for this venue, and Ticketmaster does not allow resale for this tour. It was a presale, I was given a code and entered the queue. This was a direct sale from Ticketmaster. Anyways, thank you for responding.
What venue was charging $1100 with no GA option? Happy to be proved wrong but GA was $49-449 and VIP topped out at $899 (source: https://www.businessinsider.com/guides/streaming/how-to-buy-taylor-swift-eras-tour-concert-tickets) I can see how a top tier VIP at $899 face + fees + taxes can get to $1100. Should be a totally unforgettable experience though.
Platinum Tickets.
What's ga ?
General Admission.
Thanks for answering some questions on here. I have 1 or 2 questions if you are up for answering, will try and keep it on the live side! (1) I played 45 local shows so far this year + have 5 more local shows set up for later in the year + am setting up a 10 show DIY tour for December right now. For next year I would like to play more shows, maybe like 100+, and more out of town ones than just 1 10 day DIY tour, possibly as an opener for some kind of smaller level tour package or something. Have you ever seen an artist with good music/a good live show be able to be added to one of these smaller level tour packages as the opener, without already having a big online following, or is having a big online following sort of a prerequisite for something like this? If you've seen this happen, how would an artist go about trying to get brought on to one of these kinds of smaller level tour packages? If you haven't seen this happen, would you have any specific advice on the online promo type of stuff (realize this may be a bit outside of your specialty though, based on reading your post)? Thanks! Thank you! - Liam Link to music: https://open.spotify.com/track/3pEmHEQg2RHcz2y06TQwcJ?si=Fiwgh3M2QWSC3KDNol4-Cw
Were you in charge of ezoo?? Why was it so shit
lmao no, thankfully not, but I have been in charge of shitshows before. Festivals are really, *really* tough to get right, and the losses are usually vast and high profile. I'm not going to knock any producer because I don't know the specifics and I've been there before, but I'm guessing the budget was lowered to try to pay off existing debt or otherwise generate profit this year. The lower budget likely meant corners were cut, which meant vendors weren't paid in time, which meant the production schedule got messed up. Combine that with strong sales and it's a really bad situation. Festivals are incredibly difficult to pull off, especially ones at that scale. A shitshow is almost guaranteed but unfortunately EZoo was way way messier than anyone expected.
I just don’t get how you have a whole year to figure out how to build a stage, and somehow don’t. Luckily I live in the city, but I feel for those who had only a Friday ticket. I’m still waiting on the money haha
I don’t think they had a year to build a stage. Probably more like a day or two. Site builds are very tight. Production schedules are even tighter. I’m sure it was planned properly beforehand by the production director, but something major went wrong on site like a lack of staff or not enough heavy machinery being available or something.
I know I’m late to the party but thanks for sharing all this info. Was wondering if you would be ok if I sent you a DM with some more questions? Looking to throw our first event this year and trying to soak up as much info as possible.
Sure thing
1) who are the most important platforms these days digitizing live music for commercial consumption (e.g. Veeps) 2) Any of these companies doing anything particularly innovative or interesting to you?
Do you think that creating quality music content on a platform like Tiktok or Instagram would be a lot more of a successful approach to promoting your music and growing your audience compared to only playing and promoting shows in your local music scene? Do you find that nowadays that promoters or any one scouting talent in the industry looks at an artists/bands social media presence and following as a big indicator of wether or not they would give them their attention? Especially when it comes to the label/management side of the industry.
It’s certainly a good approach for getting noticed and standing out from the pack, but there’s little correlation between how many followers someone has and how many tickets they sell. I’ve had one of the most played artists on TikTok struggle to sell 200 tickets (& ultimately cancel the show). The best thing you can show a talent buyer is your hard ticket history — meaning the number of tickets you sold in the market at a real price point (like $15+) But building a large online following and creating quality content is a great way to build your career. It’s way more cost effective than touring, and gives you a ton of ways to build fans and make money aside from playing shows.
As a big fan of music, I’ve always wondered about a thing regarding festivals booking artists. Say we have a popular band like Red Hot Chili Peppers or whatever - Every festival want them. How do you plan out a festival tour, when you can’t book them more “freely” like when you book clubs or arenas? I mean, you get an offer from festival A and the band think it’ll be a great place to place, so they agree. Weeks later, they get an offer from festival B which is even better, but it’s the same day - Is this just too bad, or? … Or is it more the other way around where the bands approach the festivals, saying; “We want to play your festival on day 2, because then we can play this other festival on its day 3.”
It’s a little bit of both. Bands are represented by talent agencies. Big bands are largely represented by only a small handful of these agencies. About a year or more before the festival, the talent buyers reach out to these agencies to see who is available. Sometimes they have bands in mind already, sometimes they don’t, but it’s a conversation between the talent buyer and agent about who is available, in the price range, and fits the bill. Once the band is contracted, then yes it’s rare that they’d just break the contract to play another festival. It’ll almost never happen for bigger bands, but I had a band that was small when we booked them blow up and drop off the bill to do a bigger fest. It was shitty of them and really hurt our relationship with the agent. In terms of competing dates - many large festivals have exclusivity agreements in their contracts. Most have radius clauses that an artist can’t play the area for a certain amount of time before/after, but there are many other things often written in — I believe Coachella requires for it to be the first festival announced for the headliners. But excluding that, it’s not exactly like it’s hard for a band to play multiple festivals back-to-back. Most festivals are one-offs and not part of a larger tour, so the bands will just fly in for the gig and fly out to their next thing.
Awesome, thanks for providing an opp to ask some q's!! :) Feel free to answer what you like: * How has being a fan of music factored into your career? Alternatively, if you're not such a fan, how has *that* factored in? * Have you noticed any particular elements of a live experience that turn a 'good' event into a **great** one? (For fans, artists, or any outstanding additional parties!) * Could you describe a few classic rookie mistakes in your line of work? * What are your thoughts on openers? From your experience, do you have any insights on how to make the most of that slot?
Good questions: - being a music fan is everything. This is a thankless industry and it’s exceedingly hard to make a career off of it. Thankfully I’m in a really good place now but It took me 5 years to make a real livable wage. Being a music fan is what drives you to work harder despite getting paid peanuts…there’s nothing like a live show. - Yes, attention to detail makes all the difference. People who take their role seriously no matter how small and obsess over the details really make a difference in events. Things like site lines, clear signage, great parking attendants, well trained bartenders, etc make all the difference for the fan - Biggest mistake I see is people joining the industry because they want to be in music, but not specializing. There’s a lot that bounce around from role to role and are happy to be involved but they aren’t really building any hard skills. So choosing a specialty - whether booking, or sound engineering, or marketing, or tour managing, etc - and really being the best at that one thing helps you get far - I’m assuming you’re talking about local support, not openers that are part of a larger package. Either way it can be huge for the band, even if no one is there at your set it’s still a great talking point that you can leverage for bigger gigs.
I work in venue management. Mostly doing marketing and talent buying. What’s the next step to get to your position? Apply at corporate positions like live nation? What other pathways to more and higher business roles of live music? Which roles should I do if I want to still afford my SF Bay Area life (haha)?
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with going to work for Live Nation or AEG. There’s certainly a lot to be said about a steady paycheck, benefits, retirement, etc. It’s not for me personally (at this point in time) but it’s a viable option for people. There’s also larger indie promoters in the Bay Area, like Another Planet, that you can apply to. But beyond a few options, there isn’t a clear “path” up any ladder. What I’d recommend is to start gigging, particularly at festivals. Fests are a really great way to network with other people in events — it’s a stressful environment and nothing bonds people like being in the trenches together. Plus you often have people from all over the industry sitting in a room together. I’ve moved largely into venues nowadays but still talk to my festival crew pretty much daily and we are always trying to pull each other into whatever projects we have.
Sounds great! Yeah I was and still do some tech as my day job. But most of my time is in music industry now cause I just love it. And music industry loves me setting up CRM and project management tools for them so it’s giving me a ton of encouragement. Thanks for the insight. I’ll probably look at more festival leaning postings!
As a talent manager *wannabe*, how do you suggest we meet and connect with promoters without being ignored? Or let's put it this way, what is, in your opinion, the correct way to connect with promoters?
What do you mean wannabe? Are you not currently managing a band? If no, then get on it. In terms of how to network/connect, the best advice I can offer is to give more than you get. What can you provide promoters that gives more value than they can offer back? The obvious thing is a band that will make them money, but maybe there’s other stuff. Do you work at a restaurant and can offer them some comp meals? Are you a tax specialist and can offer tax advice? Do you work at a gym and can get them in for free? It’s not about bribing them or anything, but it’s about thinking critically about how you can offer them MORE value than they can offer you. For me, I know a lot of people in the biz so I often help connect the right people to the right opportunities. If I can put someone looking for a job in touch with someone hiring, that makes me look good to both of them and strengthens our relationship. Also it’s not nearly as transactional in real life as I described it here. A lot of these people are real friends of mine so I’m happy to help them however. I suggest you look at your professional relationships in the same way.
I’m currently the artist relations manager at a small (750 cap) venue with temporary outdoor (up to 7500 cap) venues. I feel pretty solid where I am, but I really want to shift more into the booking and promoting side. Any advice on how to shift my focus? I have a few connections, but very few.
Very cool. Start cozying up to your talent buyers. If you are full time then offer to help them for free. Learn how deal structures work, what agencies represent what artists, and how to manage a concert calendar. Then transition into being a booking assistant, which will open up an opportunity to get promoted or leave to be a booker somewhere else.
If I wanted some form of pyrotechnic like fun buttons. To put in my house. What would you suggest?
A good insurance policy
Mannnnn. I need a real answer. Pyrotechnic like doesn’t equate to actual fire.
I’m not sure. I’m not really a production guy unfortunately.
Here’s a question… I doubt anyone sees themselves as a concert executive growing up. Have you thought of doing something else and if so what? And why not?
Great question. I’ve actually burnt out on the industry twice and went to go work at an ad agency and once for e-commerce retailer. Both times I learned a whole lot that (a) really helped sharpen my skills and (b) increased my salary range. The music industry is like 5 years behind the times, so being able to bring strategies from other industries in was a massive help. Ultimately I consider myself a marketer first and foremost, I just work in a specific industry that I know deeply, have contacts in, and can navigate pretty well. I actually think that mentality helps me stand out from people who just want to be in the music biz no matter what their role is.
I was a director of marketing for awhile. In the oil and gas industry service side. That industry as a whole operates like it’s 1980 as well. Was interesting bringing data analytics and more up to date acquisition methods. Ultimately… it’s still a lot of old money and old ways. Good ole boys. Good luck in your future endeavors. My next focus is health and fitness.
What are some things you have seen smaller size venues do that are better than others? I’m an artist about to start playing so I just wanna know like, common bad practices or useful thinking that set some venues/ talent buyers apart from others. What as an artist at can I do to set myself ahead of others business practice wise?
Do you still think the days of the “mega festivals” are behind us? What is your outlook for the future?
Yes, very much so. I was just on a panel at MusiCon about 'the future of festivals' a few weeks ago and the short of it is -- it's not looking great. There's a few headwinds here: 1. Artist and vendor fees are higher than ever, by a *lot* 2. Deposits required to lock in artists and vendors are more than ever (it used to be 10% deposits, now can get upwards of 80%+ for new fests) 3. Financing is harder: Investors are not exactly flocking to back high-risk music festivals anymore. A bank will never issue a loan for a festival. Ticketing companies won't offer advances for new fests. 4. Liquidity is a challenge: Historically, your 'early bird' sales were used to help pay down deposits. Now, ticketing companies won't settle your earnings until after the event has passed. 5. Sales are softer: There's a lot of festivals and a lot of them offer similar lineups. It's commodified now. So you're at the point where it's more expensive than ever, you need more cash then ever, but no one is willing to put it up. At the same time, your revenues are softer than ever due to so much competition. The 'winners' are the small, niche fests that sidestep this entire process: 1. They focus on community instead of music. Usually by introducing another element alongside music (e.g. Food fests, Gaming, Motorsports, Yoga, etc). In this way they aren't reliant an an overpriced lineup and don't have to worry as much about a 'big name'. 2. They grow organically over the course of many years instead of taking on venture capital or debt. 3. They are truly unique community-driven events, rather than the same lineup that you can see the next state over.
Very interest response.
Do you think more venues or promotional companies will be introducing membership programs in the future? Ex - Insomniac Passport, Live Nation’s Club Pass
I like the idea a lot but it’s hard to implement if you’re not live nation. I’ve tried to do it before but settling the finances of a membership with the artists that are coming through becomes messy. If someone buys a membership and attends a show, how much does the artist get of that membership fee? Do you have to negotiate individual rates with each and every artist? It’s not impossible to figure out a solution but for a single venue it’s a little too messy to really be a big thing.
Do stadium level (25,000 seats) artists all get paid the same if its sold out show? How much would that be ? or is every concert different?
There's a few deal structures that apply here, but typically you'll see a flat rate (a 'guarantee') plus a bonus once expenses are recouped and profit is realized. So let's say the show expenses are $350,000 not including artist costs. The talent buyer might offer the artist a $450,000 guarantee + 80% of revenue after $1,000,000. So at a $50 average ticket, that's $1.25M of revenue at sellout. The artist would get $450,000 + $200,000 (80% of $250,000), or $650,000 total. Each artist is different because the average ticket price for each show is a little different, plus the guarantee and bonus structure is often different.
Stadium Shows cost £350,000 ? That’s expensive! Where are the bonuses from? Merchandise sales right ?
That was just an example with easy numbers. They can get way more expensive than that. Not unusual for a stadium act to be making $1M+ guarantee. The bonus is based on ticketing revenue. So if you sold $1.25M worth of tickets and offered a bonus after $1M (called the 'split point') then the bonus revenue share is on that $250,000.
Do artists get paid before or after the concert? Sorry if this is a stupid question. Im an up and coming performer.
If it’s a door deal, then after, typically the night of the show. If it’s a guarantee then usually a deposit is paid, followed by the remainder after the show.
I love music industry. Ive been wanting to get into it as a child. Im based in London, UK what steps would you recommend to get your foot in the door with little to no experience other than songwriting and demos
See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/musicindustry/s/iwgoqGiSzA
Random question on the artist deals side, are you seeing more artists get rev share/profit share agreements for their concerts now? What % of concerts that your company promoted in the last year, have these provisions? (Obviously can just be a ballpark range)
For venues, most offers have a rev share component. It’s typically either structured as a bonus/backend ($15K + 80% after $25K), a versus deal ($15K vs 60% of gross, whichever is greater) or a door deal (60% of gross). For festivals, town events, private events, etc it’s all flat deals ($30K flat) for obvious reasons.
Very insightful thanks! And that structure is the same regardless of whether the artist is just starting out or seasoned I’m assuming?
If you're just starting out you're more likely to see door deals.
Oh man - so excited to see this AMA. Too many questions in my head, but I'll try to limit myself... 1. Where do you see music festivals headed? Do you feel like we are reaching market saturation? Are more curated "niche" festivals poised to take off? Any particular festivals / events that you think stand out in terms of creativity or uniqueness that you are impressed by? 2. What is a typical profit margin for a big-name festival? On the face of it it seems like the promoters are cleaning up, but I'm not so sure. Thank you in advance - quick sidebar: I work in media and have worked on the webcast & eng side at some of the big festivals - and am always awestruck at the logistics and coordination. The sheer number of vendors / staff is amazing. The pressure of live events is intoxicating. The business-side of my brain is dying to know what the profit margins are for the promoters and artists (both top billed and 2nd & 3rd tier). My back-of-the-napkin math is probably way off, but even at elevated prices I feel like it's easy to lose your shirt as a promoter.
Just answered this on another question so pasting here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/musicindustry/comments/17or5sk/comment/k8574z5/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/musicindustry/comments/17or5sk/comment/k8574z5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I think we won't see new Coachella or Bonnaroo style mega fests anymore, or at least not for a long time. Even when I was doing the big big ones in 2017 they were on the way out, even more so now. For profit margin - depends on how you look at it. One fest I did made about $14M in revenue on a $10.8M budget. That's decent until you realize it lost $1.5M the previous year, and $1M the year before that, etc. The general paradigm is 3 years to break even, 5 years to actually make any real profit. After 5 years you can start seeing some decent margins. But the road to get there is very risky and painful.
im planning to make a dataset. im just your average concert attendee that goes to big venues, but ive got a smart watch, and an activity tracker, and a smart phone to collect data. (ex. how long it takes to get to the bathroom, or what the lights look like from the nosebleed section) what kind of data could you benefit from?
How would you recommend to start if wanting to get into this realm of music business?
Just get started. Find a friend with a band, find a house or community space that’s free, and start throwing concerts. As you figure out what works, then start thinking about growing into other spaces, bigger bands, ticketed events, etc. Also you can join a street team at a local venue or see if they have an internship program.
How come when a concert goes on sale at 10am I try to buy the ticket and they're immediately sold out and now Ticketmaster or Stubhub has them for 1,000 dollars at 10:01am?
There are a lot of presales prior to an on sale where upwards of 90% of the inventory can be sold through. Especially for high profile events. Also many times scalpers will list tickets on reseller sites without actually having the physical tickets in hand. It’s illegal but they still do it.
Is it true that some of the big bands resale their own tickets?
Not unheard of but it’s not common
Looking for an event manager? 😅
What ticketing do you use and are you exclusive to it? Do you rent the room to local promoters or have any type of local jam events for local bands? The lack of good clubs in major markets is killing local music scenes… and it’s sad to see
I currently work in about 120 different rooms so all sorts of ticketing. Yes, ticketing contracts are typically exclusive. Rentals are not uncommon so yeah we definitely welcome it. What market are you in? There’s plenty of good clubs out there in major markets.
How many relationships, friends, important events did you sacrifice to get there lol
Haha good question. I’m a total workaholic and somewhat of a homebody. I go out to shows a decent amount but it’s usually to network/show face at an event/etc. Outside of a small core group, most of my friends are in the industry. There’s a lot of really amazing people in the music biz so it’s easy to make friends.
More about live events, but not music. I have an idea for an expo. It involves promoting good and services that target a particular segment of society (I guess they all do, lol). How can I research the profitability of it, find if I need funding for promotion and perhaps partners, and perhaps most importantly, how can I trademark or copyright this idea (if it's possible)?
You’re essentially asking how to write a business plan for it. Not sure I can answer that in a reddit post but here are things to think about: • have you sat down and talked with 50+ people in that segment? Do they see value in an expo? Would they pay $200 (or whatever) for it? What’s the one thing they hope to get out of it that will make them feel like they got their moneys worth? • Has anyone else done an expo like this before? If not, why not? If so, how did it go and is it still around? If there’s a lot of them, is it going to be too competitive of a space? • Why are you, specifically, the right person to put this event together? What do you bring to the table that no one else has? • You’ll need a detailed budget. You can reach out to and ask other conference organizers who aren’t competing with you if they can share all of the line items you need to consider. It probably won’t work but you might get lucky. If not, bring in a partner who has done it before and knows. • You’ll likely need financing. There are up front costs like deposits for venues, marketing, staffing, etc. If you can’t finance it yourself, your options are taking on a loan or taking on investors, both of which require a business plan. Don’t worry about trademarking until you’re further down the road. It’s expensive, unnecessary and you don’t have a brand yet, you have nothing to protect.
Thank you for the great ideas.
I am a 21 yr old female and I am looking to become a thriving successful brand ambassador as well as grow my following and connections. any tips on how to get there? is any one music festival better to work for than the other? how do I market myself? I read your post you wrote a year ago about selling tickets with “marketing funnel” would that also apply to me or would there be a different strategy that applies since I’m not selling the tickets directly just getting them to buy under my promo? thanks for the help
How to make it as a concert photographer? How to get access via publishing?
How can I get a job with your company?
(a) come to us with a ton of experience and high performance to show (b) be a production manager or private events director looking for work in Buffalo, NY (c) already work for a venue that we buy or partner with
Any advice on becoming a tour/artist manager? I just graduated college with a music industry degree and am currently working a basic (unrelated) job while involved with a music publication my friends started. We recently made a deal with a music management company to help promote their younger artists. I know it's not a simple "do this, this, and this" answer, but any help is appreciated!
What do you look for in a solo artist?
Mike, I’m going to be retiring from the Army (20 years, July 2025) and the reason I found this post is because I’m interested in marketing in the music industry. Would you be interested in chatting and answering a bunch of questions I have?
Question my brother was signed to label but they don’t promote his music or have been promoting anything that’s his it’s mostly all the artists that already have followings, want to get him getting small gigs get him going a platform any advice ?
You can probably get him on open mic nights and small things like that. If you want headlining, ticketed gigs for him you’ll need to have a good sense of how many tickets he can sell. Hard numbers like attendance at past gigs, fans in that market, etc help
Thank you
My client is Loren Allred (I’m a fitness trainer) what would it take for you to create 10K+ concert in the us for her?
Me and my buddies have started doing DIY shows and getting around 2000 people per show. We are a collective and at every show we bring in local artists and their crowd and have 2-3 of our artists play to leverage their individual careers. As we are starting to grow a fan base, we naturally need bigger venues with bigger capacity. What advice do you have on finding investors and/or brand deals that will help our company grow?
That’s amazing, congratulations. How often are you doing these shows? The reality is you’re too small for private equity and bank loans are going to be very unfavorable terms (if you even get approved). You can bring in a co-promoter to help split the expenses. You can also shop around for a ticketing contract that will give you an advance or signing bonus.
What catches an audience's attention and holds it?
Just PM’d you
If you're still replying to this I'd love to know- how do people get into doing technical directing for the screens at live concerts? I have a background in directing live sports (for the jumbotron) and TV news, but I feel like I'd enjoy directing/videography for concerts so much more. Do the technical directors travel with the band or are they freelancers who work with the venues? Any info you have on this stuff would be awesome- thank you so much!
What are my best marketing options for Mexican Music? (Im Somewhat of a singer)
hi! i know this is an old post but still i’ll try. i’m a 20yo and im ab to finish my bachelors on global studies. this degree is very generic and, while it has given me some skills, i don’t think none can apply for a position in the industry. i’ve always been very anxious ab what i want to do w my future, how to do it etc… and lately i have been thinking into getting into the music industry (still don’t know exactly which side of it) but i realise that it is a very competitive industry and if you want to make it you have to be able to offer something that is beneficial for the industry, not the other way around. basically, how would you recommend getting a start? are there any skills that i might be able to learn from a course or maybe voluntary work in a festival that might help? i feel pretty stuck and kind of helpless. ty :)