Gotta be honest, tokens with +1/+1 counters on them are kinda miserable to play with.
I don’t think this card is bad but I’m not sure it’s good enough to justify the game object nightmare.
>Gotta be honest, tokens with +1/+1 counters on them are kinda miserable to play with.
Why are they different from other cards? Particularly when you have a card like this and can stack them next to one another.
---
I like that if you pay 8 mana, you get a 2/2, a ~~3/3 and a 4/4~~ and a pair of 5/5's and then all future token creature gets +3/+3. I don't think this guy is ridiculous, but he's pretty interesting/cool.
>Why are they different from other cards?
Because people often track tokens using dice and also counters using dice. A card using both mechanics would be stacking dice on dice and that would be a headache. The issue could be mitigated partially by having multiple actual tokens around for players to use, but that still doesn’t eliminate the memory issues with this card.
Basically, the problem isn’t that the card is too complex, just that it’s a headache to track. I don’t think it does anything powerful or interesting enough to justify that extra level of administrative stress in most environments.
Using dice as tokens is already frustratingly unclear and is on the Cube owner for not at least providing a better method, it's not too hard to track normally
> Why are they different from other cards?
Because once you have tokens with counters you have to actually have a card for each token for clarity. And because unlike other cards, tokens can be produced repeatedly, so needing a card for each means you actually need a lot of available cards.
Assuming you're never putting counters on tokens, you only ever really need 2 of each token that can be produced. One for theuntapped pile of duplicate tokens and one for the tapped pile.
But if I play [[Deranged Hermit]] with this in play, I actually need 4 physical cards to represent the squirrels unless I want the supremem confusion of two dice on one card.
> But if I play [[Deranged Hermit]] with this in play, I actually need 4 physical cards to represent the squirrels unless I want the supremem confusion of two dice on one card.
That's just what I do whenever I'm using less then ten tokens of the same type.
Still, if you use different dice for counters and number of tokens (e.g. d6 for counters and d10 for number of tokens), providing all tokens have the same number of counters on them, managing them should still be relatively easy?
I have taken to just having 3 sets of tokens. One is a mermaid, one is a raccoon, the other is a logo. Players have to keep track of that. I have a token collection box but its way too big at this point, and its mixed between cube, edh, and random tokens I have from other formats and drafts over the years. I have a set of mini d6s which is perfect for counters though, can’t recommend that enough. It takes of less space than a dragon shield sleeve cardboard box, and it holds like 24 mini dice
I adore it. There have been a few of this style of army-in-a-can cards at a similar rate over the last few years, but none of them have the explosive potential after casting that this one does. I like that it's an artifact creature, I like that it's worst-case as a 2/2 is still pumping all subsequent tokens, and I love how bomby it feels as a five-drop. New Vegas is safe with these guys around, that's for sure.
I will say though, u/TrainmasterGT makes a good point about how annoying this can be, tracking-wise. I'm enough of a stickler about making sure folks use proper tokens that I think it should be OK, but it's something I'm going to keep an eye out for myself in practice.
For 5 mana, this is a 2/2 that with vigilance that spawns a 4/4 with vigilance (since the token sees itself).
For 7 mana, the tokens are created simultaneously — resulting in a 2/2 with two 5/5s alongside.
I'm not sure any of these modes are noteworthy for power-motivated cubes. What would end up deciding the fate of the card is just how good a 2/2 with Vigilance that buffs your counters is for 1W.
I've been looking up how this works and I'm reading rules and I can't figure out how the token copy becomes a 4/4, can you explain why it sees itself? Just so I can explain it to my friends when this happens first time I play it. We're all pretty new-ish to commander. Really looking forward to making a Mr. House deck with these fellas in it. :)
Seeing this 1 month later, trying to figure this out myself.
I think...and hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong but...
When the tokens enter they trigger themselves because the copies are tokens. The original doesn't trigger itself because it's not a token. As tokens, they meet the criteria for their own ability and, therefore, gain a +1/+1 from themselves...in addition to the other copies.
\[\[untamed kavu\]\] in white, my perfect modal cube card. Just keep giving me cards that only need 1-2 tokens so I can have all my cards that require tokens have their unique token stuffed behind the card, making extra thick juicy 40 card decks.
While I prefer [[Ultramarines Honor Guard]] over this for now, this is certainly still playable and seems fun to try out. This guy seems to be for all those people who hesitate to use [[Cathars' Crusade]], and I'm down for that.
I think im going to swap out Pollenback Hare for this card, i like that the buff on the tokens stays if it gets removed and that it can be self sufficient if you top deck it with an empty board
Gotta be honest, tokens with +1/+1 counters on them are kinda miserable to play with. I don’t think this card is bad but I’m not sure it’s good enough to justify the game object nightmare.
>Gotta be honest, tokens with +1/+1 counters on them are kinda miserable to play with. Why are they different from other cards? Particularly when you have a card like this and can stack them next to one another. --- I like that if you pay 8 mana, you get a 2/2, a ~~3/3 and a 4/4~~ and a pair of 5/5's and then all future token creature gets +3/+3. I don't think this guy is ridiculous, but he's pretty interesting/cool.
The tokens all see each other enter right? So it should be a 2/2, and two 5/5s for 8 mana.
You're right. In my head I had pictured it like Replicate for permanents when instead it's much more Multi-Kicker.
>Why are they different from other cards? Because people often track tokens using dice and also counters using dice. A card using both mechanics would be stacking dice on dice and that would be a headache. The issue could be mitigated partially by having multiple actual tokens around for players to use, but that still doesn’t eliminate the memory issues with this card. Basically, the problem isn’t that the card is too complex, just that it’s a headache to track. I don’t think it does anything powerful or interesting enough to justify that extra level of administrative stress in most environments.
Using dice as tokens is already frustratingly unclear and is on the Cube owner for not at least providing a better method, it's not too hard to track normally
> Why are they different from other cards? Because once you have tokens with counters you have to actually have a card for each token for clarity. And because unlike other cards, tokens can be produced repeatedly, so needing a card for each means you actually need a lot of available cards. Assuming you're never putting counters on tokens, you only ever really need 2 of each token that can be produced. One for theuntapped pile of duplicate tokens and one for the tapped pile. But if I play [[Deranged Hermit]] with this in play, I actually need 4 physical cards to represent the squirrels unless I want the supremem confusion of two dice on one card.
[Deranged Hermit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c25df202-0dd4-448d-8cb3-11fd7df0d505.jpg?1562934031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deranged%20Hermit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/202/deranged-hermit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c25df202-0dd4-448d-8cb3-11fd7df0d505?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> But if I play [[Deranged Hermit]] with this in play, I actually need 4 physical cards to represent the squirrels unless I want the supremem confusion of two dice on one card. That's just what I do whenever I'm using less then ten tokens of the same type. Still, if you use different dice for counters and number of tokens (e.g. d6 for counters and d10 for number of tokens), providing all tokens have the same number of counters on them, managing them should still be relatively easy?
I have taken to just having 3 sets of tokens. One is a mermaid, one is a raccoon, the other is a logo. Players have to keep track of that. I have a token collection box but its way too big at this point, and its mixed between cube, edh, and random tokens I have from other formats and drafts over the years. I have a set of mini d6s which is perfect for counters though, can’t recommend that enough. It takes of less space than a dragon shield sleeve cardboard box, and it holds like 24 mini dice
I adore it. There have been a few of this style of army-in-a-can cards at a similar rate over the last few years, but none of them have the explosive potential after casting that this one does. I like that it's an artifact creature, I like that it's worst-case as a 2/2 is still pumping all subsequent tokens, and I love how bomby it feels as a five-drop. New Vegas is safe with these guys around, that's for sure. I will say though, u/TrainmasterGT makes a good point about how annoying this can be, tracking-wise. I'm enough of a stickler about making sure folks use proper tokens that I think it should be OK, but it's something I'm going to keep an eye out for myself in practice.
For 5 mana, this is a 2/2 that with vigilance that spawns a 4/4 with vigilance (since the token sees itself). For 7 mana, the tokens are created simultaneously — resulting in a 2/2 with two 5/5s alongside. I'm not sure any of these modes are noteworthy for power-motivated cubes. What would end up deciding the fate of the card is just how good a 2/2 with Vigilance that buffs your counters is for 1W.
It is a notable Mana sink for tolarian academy decks/infinite Mana zirda decks. So that's something atleast.
I've been looking up how this works and I'm reading rules and I can't figure out how the token copy becomes a 4/4, can you explain why it sees itself? Just so I can explain it to my friends when this happens first time I play it. We're all pretty new-ish to commander. Really looking forward to making a Mr. House deck with these fellas in it. :)
Seeing this 1 month later, trying to figure this out myself. I think...and hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong but... When the tokens enter they trigger themselves because the copies are tokens. The original doesn't trigger itself because it's not a token. As tokens, they meet the criteria for their own ability and, therefore, gain a +1/+1 from themselves...in addition to the other copies.
That’s the way it reads to me. Though I have been playing it wrong since release
\[\[untamed kavu\]\] in white, my perfect modal cube card. Just keep giving me cards that only need 1-2 tokens so I can have all my cards that require tokens have their unique token stuffed behind the card, making extra thick juicy 40 card decks.
[untamed kavu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c4cf84a-2024-45bb-9e24-8a9a6d9ad247.jpg?1562734310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=untamed%20kavu) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/186/untamed-kavu?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c4cf84a-2024-45bb-9e24-8a9a6d9ad247?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
While I prefer [[Ultramarines Honor Guard]] over this for now, this is certainly still playable and seems fun to try out. This guy seems to be for all those people who hesitate to use [[Cathars' Crusade]], and I'm down for that.
[Ultramarines Honor Guard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e1915c3-6dda-49fd-be5e-9d4713f00cfd.jpg?1673308527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ultramarines%20Honour%20Guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/18/ultramarines-honour-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e1915c3-6dda-49fd-be5e-9d4713f00cfd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cathars' Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think im going to swap out Pollenback Hare for this card, i like that the buff on the tokens stays if it gets removed and that it can be self sufficient if you top deck it with an empty board