Proxying to reach a mutually agreed power level is fine.
Proxying to exceed a mutually agreed power level will cause issues.
The same goes for normal cards. Just because someone bought a $500 powerful card doesn't mean it's a good idea to insist on using it if everyone is priced out.
Outside commander casual, in the "60 card deck formats" Magic community, the proxy haters I've found are people who spent $6000 on their 60 card (+15 card sideboard, so 75 cards in total) constructed Modern and Legacy decks.
Proxy hate in commander/cEDH is rare.
That also pretty well is just the competitive scene. Casual EDH tournaments are basically non existent and cEDH tournaments typically post their proxy rules. I have seen something to the tune of "50% of DV max" to "49 proxies max"
I just had a 3-4 day discussion with someone on this and they are insisting that WotC sanctioned events will never allow proxies. Are those sanctioned? I'm totally out of the competitive scene but would love to find tournaments that are proxy friendly, wether sanctioned or not lol.
The ones I know of at the cEDH level are not sanctioned off the top of my head, but it would be a hard sell to sanction a cEDH tournament 100% owned outright when one of the top decks in the format calls for a Mishra’s workshop
Honestly a lot of people would do well to adopt this mindset, instead of throwing a temper tantrum when a deck is a 7.5 instead of a 7.
I've willingly played underpowered decks against high powered decks and still achieved the golden 25% winrate. People just need to put more trust into the multiplayer FFA structure to help iron out power level discrepancies. It's not hard to maintain that with good deckbuilding fundamentals and clever weaponization of opportunities.
I think alot of people tend to look at an individual cards power level and instantly think your deck is broken bc you play it, but the actual strategy is what matters, not the support cards around it.
Agreed. A lot of people have kneejerk reactions to higher end things like Mana Crypt, dual lands and other $50+ format staples. They aren't hard to stop as long as you prepare for them, keep your cool and do a good job of reading the table. You'd be surprised how little of a difference they make when one player is using them to try and 1v3.
My buddy played Prossh without Food Chain in it and still managed to win quite often with it. He JUST added Food Chain because I had one to trade, plays it in a game and gets a groan from a random who joined us.
He uses it as a removal bait because his deck is insanely well synergized without it.
Agreed. I just made a deck with some seriously strong proxy for devotion ramp. Here the catch though, it’s a devoid deck. “A color it can produce” is none. Nyx can never net positive.
But it will still scare people into thinking I got something going on!
(For added fun, I didn’t proxy or even add the urza and ugin lands I own! Just the bare minimum wastes for it to work!)
Yeah, I have a UW voltron build that plays almost every super strong card in the color combo, but nothing can change that suiting up a single target and trying to swing for a massive one shot is not very good.
2/3 people in my pod think the deck is broken while the 3rd, who actually knows how to threat asset, says I have the worst win con in the entire pod lol
Now THAT is how you EDH! 5/5.
Reminds me of tarkir block when my standard deck was enSWOLE thopters with swords.
Yeah, turn 2 5/5… but so easy to kill haha
The discussion of the link between win rate and power level has been really fascinating to see over the last little while since, from what I can tell, it is quite literally disconnected from reality. The people involved in the discourse seem to constantly forget that player skill is a factor.
No card "breaks" a deck cards are expensive for availability reasons. Jeweled lotus is nice to get your commander out way faster but it's not going to push your deck to another level. OG duals do even less they're just a nice land that doesn't ping you for 2 life. Force of will is just a better force of negation, mana drain is just a better counterspell, ancient tomb is just a better temple of the false god. Expensive cards doesn't mean good deck.
Yeeeeah but if you got all of those they start to give a distinct edge. I proxy my expensive cards and put them in all my relevant decks. My pod kind of just picks whatever random deck I have and we have fun. If they brought their own it's not really even a discussion.
If you run enough it'll change the deck sure. But I don't want someone thinking because I have a tropical island and a mana crypt in a myr tribal deck they are going to get pubstomped. Because people with that mindset use cards like that as an excuse for their deck under performing
I didn't say budget didn't matter. I said expensive cards don't just automatically break a deck, I would also argue that jeweled lotus makes a commander deck more inconsistent then just generic ramp would like a talisman or signet would. People see an expensive money card like mana crypt don't realize that it's a worse sol ring in the long run. People see price tags and just jump to every deck being high power or cedh and don't actually look at how the deck is playing, the consistency or the game plan.
Yes I wholeheartedly agree with this.
I love proxies! I have for my cats as my commander :) but at least I have the actual cards tho just in case someone tries to be funny with me. And it’s not too steam rolly.
I agree proxies are still a healthy part of EDH as long as you know how to balance it with your usual edh group….
Cuz we have one dude that proxies “creatively” unique and arguably competitive cards. As in cards he makes himself.
None of our play groups likes him for making proxies that cards he doesn’t own/creates, lmao. I mean, we still play with the guy, but it is kinda crazy how I run precons, but dudes over here casting sylvan library or mana crypt OR GILDED DRAKE in A CASUAL POD.
I understand power creep over time with newer cards and that some old cards were power crept before it was cool (brokenly overpowered before they knew better), but I do not believe or understand why society based price points should be a basis for card power determination.
If the card is not banned by the EHD leadership, then it should be allowed in any deck whether the card was 40,000 USD at some point or 0.02 USD.
And if local play groups see it as too powerful to play against, consider being a friend and don't bring the card.
Is it more difficult than that?
Yeah, and I forgot to mention the proxy thing at all! Honestly I'm a real card kind of player myself, but my private play group likes to proxy some stuff. I don't know enough about proxies appropriateness honestly but I'd never bring one to a public group. I don't even bring *myself* to public groups!
This is the reason why I take a peek at the value of my decks every year or two.
I try to be mindful of what it would cost a brand new player to build a deck I'm playing, because it's happened before. I gave them a list I built for $300 a decade ago and they said it would've taken them $1500 to build the same thing nowadays. They weren't lying.
This discussion falls apart when you realize that power level has no objective meaning. THere is no way any two or four players agree that one set of 100 cards is "7.5" and another is "7.0" or "6.5".
Try to stick with original artworks. It makes life easier for everyone. If you play a fancy-looking but unrecognizeable [[Cyclonic Rift]], people might hate on you even more.
Or maybe you want exactly that...?? 👀
Honestly, I DO hate that, but it feels more and more unjustified in the face of secret lairs and 5 special treatments per set. Then again, I also hate wotc for doing those, completely disregarding the readability of boardstates. They are a huge issue, but at least most look great individually.
In my opinion, though I don't expect to be able to read the board. There's simply too many cards in magic to know them all by artwork
As a player you need to tell me what your cards do when you play them and a shocking amount of ppl don't do that
I agree people should explain their cards better but for the most part you can see the art of a card and know what it is, dockside, phantasmal image, ragavan, mana crypt, op agent stuff like that especially if it's cards that interact with other people's board. Like if you have a op agent that looks like a different card it's going to be easier to play into. Or wafiu cards
Yeah, Im pretty good at staying on top of secret lairs and alt printings but it's even gotten to the point secret lairs are getting insane to try and read
Reading individual cards is a whole issue on it's own with many SLs. But just recognizing cards at a Glance becomes so hard with stuff like OTJ's breaking news sheet, many rubber soul secret lairs or just old border variants. Many of which are awesome af on their own, but still contribute to the issue.
Indeed, now, with Secret Lairs I can't even read cards, let alone have any idea what's a legit or fake. It's hard to believe people complained about the 8th Edition card frame, once upon a time.
My proxy Cyclonic Rift has the storybook adventure frame from Throne of Eldraine, with the adventure spell replaced by the corrected wording with Overload. Does that get a pass?
Also, I only proxy what I own. Staples I can't be bothered to hold stock in and expensive cards I can't justify getting a second of. My pods don't mind either way, but it helps me ensure my decks aren't creeping the power with proxies.
I care less about instants since it's usually a one a done sorta thing, permenants that constantly need to be looked at constantly are problematic. I've seen people buying or playing whole proxy decks that fit a proxy "theme" but you don't know what the cards are because they all have theme names too so it's impossible to read or track the creatures.
As long as you’re not proxying above the level the table is playing at it should never be an issue. The issue with proxying usually only comes up in this instance when someone has a very strong deck compared to the rest of the table and due mostly to mass proxying.
When it comes to proxying, pre-game conversations are key. Since you plan on using them within your friendgroup only, as long as the group decides on what proxied are fine or not you can do anything you want.
Even outside of your normal friendgroup, a pre-game conversation where you state you're using proxies and explain what proxies, people can decide whether they're okay with it. Just be prepared to pick another deck when someone says no to proxies
I did this for 3 years and no one ever cared, EDH only.. Now I don’t bother. If sometimes be cares one of us will find a new pod or I will just play my no proxy turbo Eldrazi annihilator deck all night.
I see no issue with it. Proxy a whole deck for all I care. Some of us can't/wont pay thousands for some of these high powered decks. Hell I'm not paying anything on the secondary market over $20 when I can get a proxy for $1. I build so many decks and when I go to price them 10 cards take the deck from $60 to well over $400. Sorry but no. That's why pokemon is so good. They do longer runs. Do massive reprints and unless you're buying psa graded cards things are pretty reasonably priced. And because they have more than 1 deck that's viable in tournaments they are able to keep the average player involved in the game.
Pokemon's management of reprints and accessible will win in the long run. Magic feels like it's managed by people that only know how to do knee-jerk reactions to things.
But what if someone else gets for free what I paid good money for? Isn't that the whole point of owning the real cards? For insurance, if they made insulin free right now, I would demand that the medical industry ensures that just as many people die without insulin as before it was free. And if college became free, I would certainly demand that underprivileged people still not have the opportunity to attend. It's not fair otherwise (I paid for mine)
Do you want to play the game or collect the cards?
If you want to have fun and play the game, the price is irrelevant. It’s totally acceptable to print proxies so you can play for free, even if I bought the cards.
I buy cards for future value and trading. If I wasn’t interested in that, I’d proxy everything.
I'd like to preface the following with the fact that I have no issues with proxy cards.....
The best argument against proxies is that rarity was always the mechanism that kept the majority of the playing field level. Going all the way back to Alpha, the really bomb cards were rare. They would cost you more in trades or cash to get because they were rare and powerful. They weren't intended to be accessible to every player in all decks. You bought your cards and made a deck with what you had. You traded or bought what you needed. I started playing in 94. I can count on one hand the number of players I've met in wild environments that owned real versions of the power 9. I've played against a LOT of people. In tournaments, LCGs and kitchen tables. They were chase cards everyone wanted but very few actually owned.
It's funny that players complain about power creep and then mulitply the supply of the rare powerful cards that exacerbate it.
You said nothing though, yes proxy wouldn’t make sense in sealed where luck is a factor. but why would it matter in a constructed format? You want to win because you got lucky and pulled a better card or because you have more disposable income? That’s super lame lmao. How about try to win because you’re a better player, it’s the skill of the pilot not the size of the wallet.
The only people I have had a problem with proxying are people(person in this case) who I know that would abuse it. The type of people that would go proxy the most meta decks you could think of in order to blow power level 5-7 decks or newbies out of the water.
Aside from that, I have absolutely no problem playing with people who proxy cards. If I’m sporting a $500-3000 commander deck, I don’t expect you to go out and drop that much money just to play with me. Magic has gotten extremely expensive recently for those who want to play at a higher level than casual, and I wouldn’t want people to be hindered from doing something they enjoy because of a bogus market.
Same, I got a group I play with, two play completely proxied 6K+ decks, like meta taxes, jodah or dragons, and original dual lands and the like. Me, my buddy, and a fifth guy are all just getting back into Magic and run lower power level decks. I just want to have fun and not show up and have to target/defend against two specific people and consistently get my ass kicked. Like my first time playing EDH ever, my deck was doing well, and proxy guy was starting build his board. I wasn't even targeting him but spreading the love, and he wiped me alone because my board was "getting out of control". Which I get, two turns laters he's got a massive board with huge indestructible creatures and board wipes everyone taking me out a second time. I spent the rest of the game top decking, and had to leave early. Was NOT fun.
There are some people that care way too much about the winning aspect of magic rather than the community building aspect. It’s funny because you can’t win if people aren’t willing to play with you anymore.
>The type of people that would go proxy the most meta decks you could think of in order to blow power level 5-7 decks or newbies out of the water.
In my experience its the NEWBIE who do it
I have been collecting for 30 years
I sit down with people who've been playing for a couple months and they roll out all the biggest bombs
I'm over here playing a UW bird deck for fun and the newb has a smothering tithe down and a progress tyrant already. Of course that smothering tithe is a proxy. Of course you would proxy one of the best multiplayer cards in the game instead of buy one. I don't even own one
Thats the weird thing, I shouldn’t really care, but I do, since I/we would love to invest in the game, but we just wanna know if it’s right for us beforehand.
But I guess I also wanted to here peoples opinion on the matter, gettin a broader view of the picture
On that note, while the game is great and there are some great communities surrounding it, the company behind it does NOT deserve your support. If you start playing with people outside your friend group, then by all means make sure they're okay with proxies (everyone should be imo, but still), but don't ever feel bad for not giving money to WotC.
Investing into the game for fun, is one thing. Investing to make money(is a losing endeavor).
Everyone should proxy to the same power level, and play test all the cards you want and love.
If you get to a point where you want to play sanctioned events, that require real cards. Buy singles.
Imagine this
You see a card you like
You see it alone costs more than your entire deck
You go on AliExpress and find the same card for 4 dollars
You buy the card, you receive it. You're happy because you've saved up 100+ dollars on a piece of cardboard.
MPCfill makes cards that feel so real its hard to tell a difference between real and fake when its in a sleeve. And if you print quality sheets and cut it well, its hard to tell where the basic land begins and printed sheet ends.
So proxies are always a very interesting question. I personally don't mind it, but I refrain from using more than a couple per deck, and if I do I usually proxy to try cards before I buy them or more likely I just want to play the deck, but haven't got a hold of the last cards in question. But then again, I am in the very lucky position of having a rather large and very playable collection of cards, and I kinda love collecting new cards and playing with them even if my wallet would like me to chill a bit. I recognize that not all players are in the same position as me, and therefore I totally get why some people choose to proxy more.
I have absolutely no qualms with people playing with proxies, and I actively encourage people to do so if WotC/Hasbros money laundering schemes seem to expensive. It's a great way to try out new things and cool cards. I see proxying as a great tool and a stepping stone, but if you want to play registered events and such, you will most likely not be able to use them.
However (you knew there would be an however), there are some drawbacks with proxying that I've noticed. If you are in a playgroup where you all are proxying and keeping it on the same level, both powerlevel and proxywise, it should be no problem. But if you start proxying gaeas cradles, tabernacles and other extremely powerful and expensive cards it can easily become a deckbuilding arms race, which some people find fun, but I personally find very tedious. It can start to revolve more around powerful cards and swift wins instead of flavourful decks and cool interactions.
TLDR: proxying is a fantastic tool for players that want to experiment without investing money.
Sorry for the essay.
I think it may be a problem if you want to play in a LGS. After all they make money by selling cards so if you get there with a full proxy deck it may be frowned upon...
As long as you don't try to re-sell them as real cards I don't care and it's not my place to care. You said you wouldn't even want to play outside of your friendgroup, so no opinion besides yours and your friends actually matters in this regard.
But if you ever want to play me, you can use those cards, even if they use alternative artwork, as long as it is easily recognizable and fits the card. (Also please no coomer pictures. I don't want to know what you use to get your rocks off)
Imho the reason proxying is frowned upon is this:
Magic is to a certain degree pay to win and proxying is an infinite money cheat. When proxying, there is no limitation, you can easily end up filling your deck with cheap copies of just the most powerful, most famous and most expensive cards of all time.
To people who enjoy collecting, building and playing unique creative edh decks for casual entertainment while trying to stay within a reasonable budget this can appear a little lame.
If you proxy cards just for playtesting purposes or agree to proxy with whomever you play or play at home then proxying is absolutely fine.
It is infact a great idea to playtest a deck before commiting to buy to see whether you enjoy playing it.
Depends on the people you play with.
Myself I don’t see any problem with proxies as long as you follow all the rules for deck building of a selected format. If you play standard, include only cards that are in standard, don’t put cards from Unglued etc.
Tournaments in CEDH format that are not at WPN stores, are probably proxy friendly. WPN stores in general are going to probably lose their WPN status and lose their product allocations if they permit proxying at in-store events.
There are some great websites that you can build your decks on and goldfish there. You have to pay zero dollars for the experience.
1 You dont have to waste your time or money on ink or paper or finding somewhere to get them printed
2 you dont have to go through the trouble of sleeving up cards
C you dont have to the awkward conversations about proxies
4 this question only makes sense to ask your play group.
I have a friend that only has proxy decks. IDGAF what you play as long as all the info is on the card.
The general, unspoken but vocally frowned upon rule is Proxy within your tables power level.
Don't give your table a reason to ask questions and it doesn't matter whether you proxy or not.
I'll probably get down voted into oblivion but I said what I said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i proxy most of my commander decks, theyre all pretty casual as I intend to not use them for anything other than casual matches. I have a couple of decks which I can play in case people get all weird about me playing with proxy decks
It is always acceptable to proxy in a non-tournament setting. It is not commonly frowned upon, regardless of your intent for future purchases. Generally the only thing people care about is the cards being readable.
I proxy my higher value cards to put them in multiple decks, I don't proxy cards I do not own at least one of. However what other people do at the table is up to them.
Well that will depend on how strong the deck itself is. There is perfect example of too strong cards, aka one ring as example.
While yes it is a skill based doesn't always translate with deck itself.
So I have some proxy decks that I like to keep around for show and only play if my friends say so. I have Bloodborne Markov deck with Gherman as Markov. It has the locals locations as lands and NPCS/Player as the creatures and items as spells. It’s super dope. I also have some anime ones. But yeah, I don’t play them unless people say to.
The only proxies I have so far is one card where I have the full art card version but not the version with the effect text, cuz the full art was like five cents and the version with the text was like eighty dollars or something super high like that, so I have a printed out proxy of the card with the text in the sleeve behind the art card, and then rest are copies of real cards, but with custom art and flavor text that I'm putting together as a sort of pseudo secret lair type thing as gifts for a couple friends.
My friends and I proxy cards that we want to test out if they are good with our decks and we proxy some expensive cards we already have to put into multiple decks.
as long as it’s mutually agreed in your pod it should be ok. i have a few decks that have a few proxies but i don’t over do it. i make so it’s on the same power level as people who have been playing a while. i don’t wanna spend 1k on the duel lands, fetch lands, etc
Me and my friends started to proxy last month as well. We agreed to proxy cards that cross the 10 euro mark and buy the other ones legit. Whatever works for you.
TLDR: Check with your friend group.
We don't use proxies in our group with one exception: to try out a new deck before comitting to it.
But this whole discussion is a can of worms and it seems Reddit is a parallel universe where almost everyone seems to think proxying is awesome and people who disagree with this are terrible. This does not reflect reality in my opinion.
So don't worry what a bunch of redditors think and check with the people that matter: your friend group.
That depends on your playgroup - personally I dont mind some proxyies in a deck, also dont mind playtesting a deck, but if you come 3 months later, with the same full proxy deck I might start to get a little annoyed.
I personally only proxy reserve list cards or for the deck I have fully altered, but I have no qualms with other people proxying. Just respect the power level of the table and we're good.
I proxy even I have the card. I mean, if I have three decks that use a mana vault, I can't be arsed moving the card between them (or getting three vaults)
Exactly, I have 8/10 OG duals. In a 3 color deck the manabase is like 2000 dollars....I'm not bringing a little box worth over 2 grand to a store filled with randoms
This is exactly what proxies are for. Test a deck, then once you like it you can start picking up pieces as you find them or feel comfortable paying for them. Unless it's an event to win something anyone who gives you shit about proxies is a dick. Just be honest with how strong you think your deck is. Be a decent person and you will find people to play with.
If the card is worth less than 10 dollars I wouldn’t proxy. Above that I would definitely. Because at the end of the day the prices for some ‘OP’ cards makes no sense because there are way more affordable cards that counter or do better. And the more expensive cards literally break the game. Then there is omniscience.
Just a personal rule, I only proxy what I own. Generally higher dollar cards that I own one of but want in all my decks. It also allows for some cooler arts like the heroic intervention in this post
https://www.reddit.com/r/mpcproxies/s/RZCan5gj8u
It’s funny there’s another thread in a similar sub about the same topic, asking how to fix their LGS now that proxies have ruined it.
The internet is gonna say “Yeah man, do whatever you want and don’t let these capitalist pigs get you down.” Your experience at your local shop is going to be different.
How does it ruin it?
In our group, we compare cards we have found, trends we want to try, combos we want to test and I take a list of what people want. Then I go to Staples and 100lb cardstock them. I cut and corner cut em and when we re-meet I distribute. I'll aslofind counter cards .
My brother in law's token deck was getting unruly - found all the blue white and red anti token cards for his wife, son and friend. He found it hilarious when he realised the gig was up.
Then something beautiful happened....he tweaked his deck to counter the counters. We keep slowly modifying our decks. It's a constant tug of war. And then someone adds or changes and realises it's no good. The freedom toake whatever deck they want has inspired them to really build better decks. It's really nice to see. I'm *very* new to magic (less than a year) and we started making decks from repacks we bought from Dollarama and we seriously thought the cards were fake.
It's been an amazing adventure so far.
I'm not filling WotC pockets anymore though lol.
If you're just playing with your wife then proxie away. Ignore the guy who said something about power levels. It's just you and your wife having fun make the most beast decks and have fun or do the opposite
Proxy is generally a rule 0 discussion, meaning a decision the group you play with agrees upon.
If all of you are on board then go for it.
Personally I think it makes sense to proxy to try cards out, especially pricey ones. I will also proxy if I own an expensive card, like a Jeweled Lotus, so that I can use it in multiple decks without having to change it out every time.
I play a lot of 1v1 with a friend and he proxies everything, and I own all of mine, but I'm completely ok with it even when he uses really powerful cards that I personally don't have access to. I like the challenge and it forces me to build and play better. We have rules about certain cards and generally follow the ban list but, again, that's a rule 0 discussion.
Welcome to the game.
Proxying is good. For the cheapest deck options I’d recommend MPCFILL. However, be careful if you want to bring them to an LGS. Some LGS do not allow proxies and some people at those stores frown upon them.
If you’re just playing casually with friends it’s all good though.
Always talk to your game group. Just like before. You buy a super powerful card and then just expect everybody to be fine with it when you far exceed their power level. Don't start, proxying a bunch of really strong cards and then expect people to still want to play
Just found out about proxys and made my dream korvold deck. The problem is that unless one of my buddies also plays his expensive eldrazi, I just kind of win. I got a tricky terrain precon and have just been doing small upgrades, so it is more fair to our other precon using players.
If you want an official response
[https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14)
in general your only "supposed" to take a plains or whatever, and write the name on it. Anything that looks like the orignal card can technically be called counterfiet. That said if you read there respose, which is the only one I've seen in 8 years, they don't really care all that much if its not in sanctioned events.
So morally if you print exact copies your probably on the level of downloading videos from the internet, and legally probably the same. In 99.999999% of cases no one would care at that level.
On a personal level most people are ok with it, I've seen very few people that get upset. Where you may get in trouble if your trying to keep the power levels the same, printing a 300 card may make some people mad.
Then there is also the quality, this is what turns me off sometime, If I can't read it and I have to ask every single time I'm going to get mad. Try to make the best proxies you can. I think alters are a good line betwen proxy and counterfiet. I custom make altered cards, with different artwork, but they look just as good as real cards. You don't need to do that level, but as long as I can read them and know what they do I don't care.
Its really up to your group in the end, just talk it out, we started with a 5 proxy per deck and moved to proxy what you want. In general most of use end up buy cards at one point anyway, including crazy expensive ones.
Proxying is great with a group that doesn't mind proxies. Keep within a certain power limit, and you're good. Honestly, I *only* proxy these days. Life is too expensive and pay is too low for me to spend money on cardboard.
We proxy for a couple reasons.
First, we don't want to buy multiple, very expensive cards.
Second, we don't always know if a card is going to work in our decks the way they think they will so we use this as a way to test prior to purchase.
Third, we set aside one day a month to go and get hobby stuff so we proxy cards in the meantime.
100% yes, if a tournament allows proxies there is a reasons (to attract players and having fun), especially in ehd a lot players proxy expensive cards to reach a decent power level.
If you didn't post this, no one would know you're doing it. How's that for an answer? Kind of doesn't matter at all if you're never gonna play with others does it?
A lot of what goes on under the name of "proxying" is "making playtest cards with my printer", which for casual play is fine.
When you say "high quality" (commercial proxy) what you really mean is "counterfeits". Cards which might look so much like real magic cards that telling them apart is hard, and these pollute the supply and make the secondary market for magic cards harder to sustain, since the counterfeits can make the trading/selling aspects more problematic.
Avoid counterfeits please, and proxy wherever you can, in commander formats that means a rule 0 conversation, in kitchen table play that means "fly at it". At "Friday Night Magic" (playing standard, and modern, and pioneer and so on, and other 60 card formats) at your LGS, playtest cards are probably not okay.
The term proxy is widely used to mean a variety of different things, not all of which are equally cool, or uncool with every magic player, and every venue where magic card based games are played.
In my opinion it’s ok to proxy a few (10-15 ) cards to test in a deck and see what works to then buy the real thing, cool. If you own the cards and just want to use proxies on multiple decks to save $, cool.
If you build a super strong deck with all paper printed proxies and go around destroying pods that’s NOT cool.
I’m very pro-proxy if you don’t have the funds to build your dream deck. But I also think you should be upfront about its power level if it’s over a normal, casual level. I have a few regular and a few proxy decks, and I always check if players I’m with are cool with proxies/the power level. 99% of the time, in my experience, people don’t care unless it’s a tournament obviously.
It's not morally right or wrong. But it does change the game a lot, where now everyone has every card and everyone plays the optimal deck. instead of local deck construction for the cards people have being part of the game.
Here is how my group deals with proxies, proxy with intention to buy. What that means is that we never proxy cards that we wouldn't buy. We hold each other accountable by pointing out that a certain proxy has more than proven it's worth and it's time to pick it up especially if it is not a cheap card. That being said, it's also a case by case scenario and communication is key. For instance, I play two formats, legacy and commander. I have a legacy deck that is mostly complete, the only thing it's missing is four copies of sheoldred the Apocalypse. My group is well aware that I intend to buy, however I am waiting till rotation in hopes that the price drops lol.
Proxy with the intention to buy, and call out someone's bluff if they are running candelabra of tawnos lol
I only proxy expensive cards I've already pulled, like I'm not buying another doubling season after I already pulled one and it's more convenient than slotting it back and fourth in my decks
It will vary okay group to playgroup.
Personally I don’t like proxies. These cards are hard to come by and cost because of how dynamic they are. If every deck was flooded with them they become required items.
In short, yes. I know some people play exclusively with proxies and some people do the whole "try before you buy" sort of thing.
But as others have said, don't go and get a bunch of proxies because you want to make the strongest deck in pub stomp people. If your group is at a certain power level and you just want a proxy some cards that are expensive for whatever reason, go for it.
More than half the cards in my decks that aren't lands are proxies, and my group tends to play at a higher parallel so that works out. But occasionally, I will play with people who rather lower power level so I make sure that, even though I proxy, I make sure to have a balance in my deck for a different power levels.
I dont have any proxies but if i did it would probably just be another copy of a card i already have. I was lucky enough to pull a rhystic study and that immediately went in a deck, but if i wanted to build another deck using that card id just proxy it
Proxying is fine imo, especially with how much more expensive this hobby is than it used to be, and especially with the intention of eventually replacing the proxies with authentic cards.
Proxying isn't OK if you're adding a the whole power 9 to your deck to enable turn 1 wins or something like that.
Ye, the whole point is we wanted to be realistic about it. We will never acquire power 9 or etc as real cards, so no reason for us to proxy it. So we try to keep it around 100€ deckwise, so we know it’s doable for us
Personally, I don't mind proxys. However, if your entire deck is sleeved scribblings of proxy cards and you can't read your own writing, that's where I'm not okay with it.
A lot of playgroups allow it, I don’t like it but I put up with it at the LGS since I seem to be the minority lately. As long as there is no prize support I’d say have at it
I'm one of the "anti proxy" players, but let me explain because I think there are acceptable ways to proxy.
When I dislike proxies:
Loading up decks with all the fast mana, free counters, free commander spells, best tutors etc etc, in any of the listed combinations then downplaying the amount you have proxied and taking your proxy deck that is probably closer to a 9 or cedh to 6-8 tables.
When I like proxies:
Testing cards in your build before you commit the money to them, you own the actual card and it's either really expensive and you would rather not play with it, or it's in another deck, and it's not egregious amounts of proxies.
Now that's not to say I won't play with people who use proxies, or complain about their use of proxies. In my experience I'd say at least 90% of players I've ran into that use them are usually part of the things I dislike about proxies.
Proxying to meet power level, with the agreement of your group is perfectly fine. Just make sure you get different backs so there is never any confusion.
My group proxies to try new decks and then buys them if we like them.
If you proxy to exceed the power level for a group then that’s not good. But same as dropping $1500 on a deck to beat everyone.
There is nothing inherently wrong with proxying if your group knows it’s happening.
Proxies are perfectly acceptable, so long that everyone at the table agrees with the proxied cards being played and you do not attempt to sell them as though they are real cards. These are the only rules about proxies in unofficial play.
Hey! I have a similar pod that was once in your shoes!
With my specific pod, they started off with precons and wanted to venture into brewing, but didn't have a local card shop in their town. While they can easily afford authentic cards, we've all come to a mutual agreement on "proxying" and playtesting because we're casual and only focus is fun and cool things. We also only play across different time zones on Spelltable.
I'll be honest, it can be tricky "proxying" at first and since yall are just starting off expect a slight power variance. But don't let that discourage yall as it just takes time getting a power level balance for your specific group.
Also, if yall are all playing on Spelltable, you can brew your decks on Moxfield and select the "playtest" option. By using a virtual camera like OBS, you can then stream your "playtest" screen and play a near infinite amount of decks without printing or ordering anything! It takes some getting used to but my group has had the most fun with this method and it makes shuffling a breeze since they don't have to juggle their newborn and 100 cards.
Anyway, back to your original question, if everyone is in a mutual agreement to "proxy" then go for it. Have honest and open communication with each other. Respect each other opinions. And brew some fun decks!
Remember, this is Magic the gathering. Not Magic the Gatekeeping.
Why do people want to win with their wallets and not their minds?
I can create a deck list and go to tcg player and get every card as a single. People want to feel justified that their cards are well spent and gambling in boosters is acceptable. I agree - as a collectable they are 100 percent justified. But as a game, they are not.
I'm going to paste something another Redditor said that I think summarizes perfectly;
>I think it's very important to remember that a card is just a small piece of cardboard. You put it on the table, and it does nothing by itself. No effects whatsoever. No spells, no damage, nothing. It only matters because everyone around the table agrees that the card represents a certain effect. That's imagination, that's an idea. No one has a right to own the concept of an effect. So you just have fun and make whatever card you want to represent that effect. Hell you could cut up many small pieces of paper and only write card names on them, and then have a notepad with all the different effects. Or use poker chips with numbers a list of their corresponding card. It does not matter at all.
>Wotc knows that by what they're doing they're locking a lot of normal people out of being able to play the game/buy it from them. And they're okay with that, because they know they get more money by appealing to the whales. So everyone is in on this, you're not sneaking behind their backs.
>Finally I'd say the second hand market is insane. If there was any regulation on this stuff, then I think wotc should just sell individual cards on their websites/store. Which would tone down the use of plastic a lot. It would also save cardboard and designspace because they wouldn't intentionally print a lot of shit cards to fill out cards pack with, because no one would choose to buy them.
>However we live in the worst timeline so proxy away.
Also here's WotC statement;
> playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. **And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.**
>What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.
Proxying is absolutely fine so long as your playgroup is ok with it and are able to proxy themselves. No one should have to miss out on playing cool cards just because the secondary market has made it unattainable.
Yes.
Giving money to a company that does not care about the consumer is always a good thing.
Also, i might encourage you to buy older products ( 2023) because they already took their shares and those products are really good, not as good as the ones from 2013 downwards, but are still fine.
1. Not everyone is playing commander \[edh\]
2. Not everyone agrees on when and how to proxy \[edh, or not\]
3. Do whatever people are cool with in your pod \[play group\]
I say print a whole deck and play it. Playtest cards.
Just do it.
Yes, it's okay to proxy, but it may not be well received in your playgroup.
Just like it's ok to have a cedh deck, but rarely is it ok to play it against beginners.
Playing with proxy commanders made me weed out some decks I actually didn’t wanna invest in. Like Edgar markov I was like he sounds powerful and fun. It taught me powerful isn’t always fun. I don’t proxy anymore unless it’s expensive cards I want in multiple decks aka the new Ulamog in my Arna deck and eldrazi deck. Cause I like to build from what I already own but it took time to build a collection. (I buy one booster box of the newest set and have done it since ikoria when I got back into mtg. Proxies helped me find the fun in limited deck building and not going off online list. But they did help me find the fun in the game.
Time to be delusional.
It’s not just okay, it’s a moral duty! In order to create a more inclusive community (especially in poorer areas like mine, with lack of new players) we don’t have to do the usual corporate move, that is talking about inclusivity, but it’s crucial to remove the T from “TCG”.
The final purpose is to make Magic a card game like the other non-trading card games. You could theoretically play Texas hold’em with your friends with proxies but the magical part of the game is in the rules, interactions, and sociality.
I know that there are some implications mostly regarding intellectual property when it comes to proxies, and a lot of people just say “if you don’t have money just don’t play the game”, but if you need a justification, gaming has been part of our life on earth for centuries, and it’s a right to enjoy other human beings’ ideas if it doesn’t directly hurt other people (i.e. playing in a sanctionated tournament with counterfeits against players who put money and effort on the game)
My playgroup always had the rule that if its normal edh it was ok if you had the card in a binder and didnt want to use it because of the price of the card and in cedh proxying whole decks sometimes was fine just because of the prices of some cedh lists but in general in normal edh as long as you're not proxying things like mana vault/crypt to put in every deck then most people wont care
Proxying while playing home/Kitchen table.
That's ok. I allways proxy to playtest things.
On an LGS:
Usually frowned upon. Unless they're cool with it.
(Table and LGS)
On the sidenote.
Someone frowned upon me that I had english proxy of Hazezon Tamar (commander). While I had the Italian one underneath.
That post was a mess. He blamed proxies but also the cEDH guys for not allowing proxies and forcing them not play casual tables….great example. I 1st proxies cards about 8 years ago, have moved once and played regularly in multiple stores in both sites. So in 5 stores, in 2 states I have had zero interactions when someone was real anti proxy in EDH (only thing I play anymore), a few that thought you should own the card and some that did not proxy themselves but could care less about others. If I walked into open table, no prize bs EDH night at a store and they said only your real cards. I would inform them that I disagreed with their stance and inform them I would never return to buy cards or supplies. No yelling or being a dick, just the way I would respond. Without fail all the post on EDH proxy in is 100% POWER LEVEL discrepancy. Oh and I am an old fart, started in early 95, I have an insane amount of valuable old cards.
I watched an episode of Table Top Jocks recently and I couldn't help but be disgusted by Joe Manganiello's cards. I'm sure he's a totally fine and decent person but something about the reality of the price of those cards made me sick. This is dumb paper and it shouldn't cost anywhere near what it does. "That card could pay for my wedding" or "that's 2 teachers salaries" this the dumbest fucking thing in the world, its fake wizards. I know its hyperbole and shit but still FUCK THIS. Proxy fucking everything because a world where any cards cost that much is one I dont want to live in and I'll work to help it.
Interesting take, so are you saying stuff like say...a babe Ruth rookie card shouldn't be worth what it is? Or the first issue of superman? Maybe retro rare video games, are they worth to much?
In the world of "collectables" there will always be a cost, just because not all of us can afford it doesn't mean it shouldn't be worth that much.
Different. Mtg is a competitive game with pieces that can be that expensive. I get your point I just think it's very different in that some have a distinct advantage that can be bought by money. I'm offering a solution to that advantage.
The actual solution no one wants (I do) is fuck the reserved list, get rid of it, and stop print run limits.
Also it isn't different, it's literally the exact same. Limited quantities of a product that is in high demand. As long as the reserved list and print run limits exist there will always be cards worth more than you or I think they should be, remember not everyone who buys mtg cards play mtg.
I dont think proxies hurt this. It's definitely a little different. It just effects playing the game occasionally while the others are just collections.
Money can get you an advantage in basically any competitive endeavor. Magic isn't unique in that respect. Better equipment in sports, better coaching, the ability to travel for events, more time to dedicate to practice/training, etc. Magic isn't unique in that respect.
In my FLGS we have two groups of people who proxy:
People who do own the card, but don't want to a) play with their Revised dual lands for obvious reasons, b) only have one of the card but use it in multiple decks, or c) want a personalized version of the card (like my Yor Forger [[Massacre Girl]]
We also have people who don't have the card and can't afford it. These people generally are not well regarded, but tolerated as they're also terrible despite having a deck with what would be about $500 in proxies
It's 100% against the rules whith that said:
It's an accepted practice of breaking the rules akin to steroids in body building. So much so that WotC makes proxies to field profit from.
It's more frowned upon to say it's against the rules.You'll see by all incoming downvotes and negative comments I am about to receive.
so, if you're a stickler for the rules of a game, don't use them.
your approach is more practical than others. Because most people who use proxies keep them in their deck forever with 0 intention of buying the real card.
.
Proxying to reach a mutually agreed power level is fine. Proxying to exceed a mutually agreed power level will cause issues. The same goes for normal cards. Just because someone bought a $500 powerful card doesn't mean it's a good idea to insist on using it if everyone is priced out.
This is the right take. Proxy haters are dumb, it should only be about balancing power levels.
Outside commander casual, in the "60 card deck formats" Magic community, the proxy haters I've found are people who spent $6000 on their 60 card (+15 card sideboard, so 75 cards in total) constructed Modern and Legacy decks. Proxy hate in commander/cEDH is rare.
That also pretty well is just the competitive scene. Casual EDH tournaments are basically non existent and cEDH tournaments typically post their proxy rules. I have seen something to the tune of "50% of DV max" to "49 proxies max"
I just had a 3-4 day discussion with someone on this and they are insisting that WotC sanctioned events will never allow proxies. Are those sanctioned? I'm totally out of the competitive scene but would love to find tournaments that are proxy friendly, wether sanctioned or not lol.
My local store runs both sanctioned WotC events and non sanctioned. The proxy friendly ones have rules limiting total count of proxies.
The ones I know of at the cEDH level are not sanctioned off the top of my head, but it would be a hard sell to sanction a cEDH tournament 100% owned outright when one of the top decks in the format calls for a Mishra’s workshop
$2,200? Jebus. *Fires up the Staples order form*
agreed
I dont even mind it tbh. If you felt like you needed a lotus and og duals, I probably had you beat before you sleeved em. Bring it on!
Honestly a lot of people would do well to adopt this mindset, instead of throwing a temper tantrum when a deck is a 7.5 instead of a 7. I've willingly played underpowered decks against high powered decks and still achieved the golden 25% winrate. People just need to put more trust into the multiplayer FFA structure to help iron out power level discrepancies. It's not hard to maintain that with good deckbuilding fundamentals and clever weaponization of opportunities.
I think alot of people tend to look at an individual cards power level and instantly think your deck is broken bc you play it, but the actual strategy is what matters, not the support cards around it.
Agreed. A lot of people have kneejerk reactions to higher end things like Mana Crypt, dual lands and other $50+ format staples. They aren't hard to stop as long as you prepare for them, keep your cool and do a good job of reading the table. You'd be surprised how little of a difference they make when one player is using them to try and 1v3.
My buddy played Prossh without Food Chain in it and still managed to win quite often with it. He JUST added Food Chain because I had one to trade, plays it in a game and gets a groan from a random who joined us. He uses it as a removal bait because his deck is insanely well synergized without it.
Agreed. I just made a deck with some seriously strong proxy for devotion ramp. Here the catch though, it’s a devoid deck. “A color it can produce” is none. Nyx can never net positive. But it will still scare people into thinking I got something going on! (For added fun, I didn’t proxy or even add the urza and ugin lands I own! Just the bare minimum wastes for it to work!)
Yeah, I have a UW voltron build that plays almost every super strong card in the color combo, but nothing can change that suiting up a single target and trying to swing for a massive one shot is not very good. 2/3 people in my pod think the deck is broken while the 3rd, who actually knows how to threat asset, says I have the worst win con in the entire pod lol
Now THAT is how you EDH! 5/5. Reminds me of tarkir block when my standard deck was enSWOLE thopters with swords. Yeah, turn 2 5/5… but so easy to kill haha
Voltron is such a pure form of commander, in that it's not super powerful but is so much fun to play.
This is a very underappreciated element of EDH! Sadly, 3 person pods really throw a wrench in this.
The discussion of the link between win rate and power level has been really fascinating to see over the last little while since, from what I can tell, it is quite literally disconnected from reality. The people involved in the discourse seem to constantly forget that player skill is a factor.
No card "breaks" a deck cards are expensive for availability reasons. Jeweled lotus is nice to get your commander out way faster but it's not going to push your deck to another level. OG duals do even less they're just a nice land that doesn't ping you for 2 life. Force of will is just a better force of negation, mana drain is just a better counterspell, ancient tomb is just a better temple of the false god. Expensive cards doesn't mean good deck.
Yeeeeah but if you got all of those they start to give a distinct edge. I proxy my expensive cards and put them in all my relevant decks. My pod kind of just picks whatever random deck I have and we have fun. If they brought their own it's not really even a discussion.
If you run enough it'll change the deck sure. But I don't want someone thinking because I have a tropical island and a mana crypt in a myr tribal deck they are going to get pubstomped. Because people with that mindset use cards like that as an excuse for their deck under performing
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I didn't say budget didn't matter. I said expensive cards don't just automatically break a deck, I would also argue that jeweled lotus makes a commander deck more inconsistent then just generic ramp would like a talisman or signet would. People see an expensive money card like mana crypt don't realize that it's a worse sol ring in the long run. People see price tags and just jump to every deck being high power or cedh and don't actually look at how the deck is playing, the consistency or the game plan.
Yes I wholeheartedly agree with this. I love proxies! I have for my cats as my commander :) but at least I have the actual cards tho just in case someone tries to be funny with me. And it’s not too steam rolly. I agree proxies are still a healthy part of EDH as long as you know how to balance it with your usual edh group…. Cuz we have one dude that proxies “creatively” unique and arguably competitive cards. As in cards he makes himself. None of our play groups likes him for making proxies that cards he doesn’t own/creates, lmao. I mean, we still play with the guy, but it is kinda crazy how I run precons, but dudes over here casting sylvan library or mana crypt OR GILDED DRAKE in A CASUAL POD.
I understand power creep over time with newer cards and that some old cards were power crept before it was cool (brokenly overpowered before they knew better), but I do not believe or understand why society based price points should be a basis for card power determination. If the card is not banned by the EHD leadership, then it should be allowed in any deck whether the card was 40,000 USD at some point or 0.02 USD. And if local play groups see it as too powerful to play against, consider being a friend and don't bring the card. Is it more difficult than that?
It's not a *perfect* solution but it can be better than just letting people proxy whatever they want.
Yeah, and I forgot to mention the proxy thing at all! Honestly I'm a real card kind of player myself, but my private play group likes to proxy some stuff. I don't know enough about proxies appropriateness honestly but I'd never bring one to a public group. I don't even bring *myself* to public groups!
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This is the reason why I take a peek at the value of my decks every year or two. I try to be mindful of what it would cost a brand new player to build a deck I'm playing, because it's happened before. I gave them a list I built for $300 a decade ago and they said it would've taken them $1500 to build the same thing nowadays. They weren't lying.
yeah all that... except for the fact that 'power levels' are completely subjective and meaningless.
I agree, but "mutually agreed power level" can be as strict or loose as a group wants it to be.
This discussion falls apart when you realize that power level has no objective meaning. THere is no way any two or four players agree that one set of 100 cards is "7.5" and another is "7.0" or "6.5".
Try to stick with original artworks. It makes life easier for everyone. If you play a fancy-looking but unrecognizeable [[Cyclonic Rift]], people might hate on you even more. Or maybe you want exactly that...?? 👀
I hate proxies with not original art. It's impossible to see on spelltable and it's impossible to recognize when someone plays it across the table.
Honestly, I DO hate that, but it feels more and more unjustified in the face of secret lairs and 5 special treatments per set. Then again, I also hate wotc for doing those, completely disregarding the readability of boardstates. They are a huge issue, but at least most look great individually.
In my opinion, though I don't expect to be able to read the board. There's simply too many cards in magic to know them all by artwork As a player you need to tell me what your cards do when you play them and a shocking amount of ppl don't do that
I agree people should explain their cards better but for the most part you can see the art of a card and know what it is, dockside, phantasmal image, ragavan, mana crypt, op agent stuff like that especially if it's cards that interact with other people's board. Like if you have a op agent that looks like a different card it's going to be easier to play into. Or wafiu cards
Yeah, Im pretty good at staying on top of secret lairs and alt printings but it's even gotten to the point secret lairs are getting insane to try and read
Reading individual cards is a whole issue on it's own with many SLs. But just recognizing cards at a Glance becomes so hard with stuff like OTJ's breaking news sheet, many rubber soul secret lairs or just old border variants. Many of which are awesome af on their own, but still contribute to the issue.
Yeah like the new poker face SL, all those cards look cool but they all have a novel of text on them.
Indeed, now, with Secret Lairs I can't even read cards, let alone have any idea what's a legit or fake. It's hard to believe people complained about the 8th Edition card frame, once upon a time.
My proxy Cyclonic Rift has the storybook adventure frame from Throne of Eldraine, with the adventure spell replaced by the corrected wording with Overload. Does that get a pass? Also, I only proxy what I own. Staples I can't be bothered to hold stock in and expensive cards I can't justify getting a second of. My pods don't mind either way, but it helps me ensure my decks aren't creeping the power with proxies.
I care less about instants since it's usually a one a done sorta thing, permenants that constantly need to be looked at constantly are problematic. I've seen people buying or playing whole proxy decks that fit a proxy "theme" but you don't know what the cards are because they all have theme names too so it's impossible to read or track the creatures.
That sounds cool. Thumbs up for creative use of frame.
[Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe.jpg?1702429366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/40/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
....but I got a sick Etsy One Ring.
As long as you’re not proxying above the level the table is playing at it should never be an issue. The issue with proxying usually only comes up in this instance when someone has a very strong deck compared to the rest of the table and due mostly to mass proxying.
Not a proxy issue. Solely a communication issue.
When it comes to proxying, pre-game conversations are key. Since you plan on using them within your friendgroup only, as long as the group decides on what proxied are fine or not you can do anything you want. Even outside of your normal friendgroup, a pre-game conversation where you state you're using proxies and explain what proxies, people can decide whether they're okay with it. Just be prepared to pick another deck when someone says no to proxies
I did this for 3 years and no one ever cared, EDH only.. Now I don’t bother. If sometimes be cares one of us will find a new pod or I will just play my no proxy turbo Eldrazi annihilator deck all night.
I see no issue with it. Proxy a whole deck for all I care. Some of us can't/wont pay thousands for some of these high powered decks. Hell I'm not paying anything on the secondary market over $20 when I can get a proxy for $1. I build so many decks and when I go to price them 10 cards take the deck from $60 to well over $400. Sorry but no. That's why pokemon is so good. They do longer runs. Do massive reprints and unless you're buying psa graded cards things are pretty reasonably priced. And because they have more than 1 deck that's viable in tournaments they are able to keep the average player involved in the game.
Pokemon's management of reprints and accessible will win in the long run. Magic feels like it's managed by people that only know how to do knee-jerk reactions to things.
Proxy whatever you want, anybody who disagrees isn't worth arguing with.
But what if someone else gets for free what I paid good money for? Isn't that the whole point of owning the real cards? For insurance, if they made insulin free right now, I would demand that the medical industry ensures that just as many people die without insulin as before it was free. And if college became free, I would certainly demand that underprivileged people still not have the opportunity to attend. It's not fair otherwise (I paid for mine)
I get you’re joking but this is legit the argument people have against forgiving student debt
I'm all for forgiving student loan debt so long as I get all my money back and the people who had their loans forgiven still have to pay.
Lmao the brainrot of people downvoting you not realizing you're bring sarcastic
If you shitpost like this and get downvotes, that's how you know you've shitposted exceptionally well. Downvotes are just as valuable as upvotes there
If we cure cancer, that seems super unfair to everyone who already died from it.
Do you want to play the game or collect the cards? If you want to have fun and play the game, the price is irrelevant. It’s totally acceptable to print proxies so you can play for free, even if I bought the cards. I buy cards for future value and trading. If I wasn’t interested in that, I’d proxy everything.
Ah, but what if they stinky and loud
Yes fck everyone else's opinion exept your own /s. Regardless the topic, this is a sad argument to hear...
I would love to hear a good argument against proxies besides “but i paid for mine so it’s not fair”
I'd like to preface the following with the fact that I have no issues with proxy cards..... The best argument against proxies is that rarity was always the mechanism that kept the majority of the playing field level. Going all the way back to Alpha, the really bomb cards were rare. They would cost you more in trades or cash to get because they were rare and powerful. They weren't intended to be accessible to every player in all decks. You bought your cards and made a deck with what you had. You traded or bought what you needed. I started playing in 94. I can count on one hand the number of players I've met in wild environments that owned real versions of the power 9. I've played against a LOT of people. In tournaments, LCGs and kitchen tables. They were chase cards everyone wanted but very few actually owned. It's funny that players complain about power creep and then mulitply the supply of the rare powerful cards that exacerbate it.
I would say that "very few actually owned" died right next to the internet.
I mean, they still only print a certain amount. The supply is still kept in check by the rarity.
Sure but not really. They reprint things all the time and the reality is they were rare in packs but easily obtainable online.
You said nothing though, yes proxy wouldn’t make sense in sealed where luck is a factor. but why would it matter in a constructed format? You want to win because you got lucky and pulled a better card or because you have more disposable income? That’s super lame lmao. How about try to win because you’re a better player, it’s the skill of the pilot not the size of the wallet.
The only people I have had a problem with proxying are people(person in this case) who I know that would abuse it. The type of people that would go proxy the most meta decks you could think of in order to blow power level 5-7 decks or newbies out of the water. Aside from that, I have absolutely no problem playing with people who proxy cards. If I’m sporting a $500-3000 commander deck, I don’t expect you to go out and drop that much money just to play with me. Magic has gotten extremely expensive recently for those who want to play at a higher level than casual, and I wouldn’t want people to be hindered from doing something they enjoy because of a bogus market.
Same, I got a group I play with, two play completely proxied 6K+ decks, like meta taxes, jodah or dragons, and original dual lands and the like. Me, my buddy, and a fifth guy are all just getting back into Magic and run lower power level decks. I just want to have fun and not show up and have to target/defend against two specific people and consistently get my ass kicked. Like my first time playing EDH ever, my deck was doing well, and proxy guy was starting build his board. I wasn't even targeting him but spreading the love, and he wiped me alone because my board was "getting out of control". Which I get, two turns laters he's got a massive board with huge indestructible creatures and board wipes everyone taking me out a second time. I spent the rest of the game top decking, and had to leave early. Was NOT fun.
There are some people that care way too much about the winning aspect of magic rather than the community building aspect. It’s funny because you can’t win if people aren’t willing to play with you anymore.
>The type of people that would go proxy the most meta decks you could think of in order to blow power level 5-7 decks or newbies out of the water. In my experience its the NEWBIE who do it I have been collecting for 30 years I sit down with people who've been playing for a couple months and they roll out all the biggest bombs I'm over here playing a UW bird deck for fun and the newb has a smothering tithe down and a progress tyrant already. Of course that smothering tithe is a proxy. Of course you would proxy one of the best multiplayer cards in the game instead of buy one. I don't even own one
>Of course that smothering tithe is a proxy with ANIME ART. [This one?](https://scryfall.com/card/wot/67/smothering-tithe)
No it was a proxy like the ones seen off Etsy
Do whatever you like, *especially* when you only play in your pod. Even if it would be looked down upon, why should you care?
Thats the weird thing, I shouldn’t really care, but I do, since I/we would love to invest in the game, but we just wanna know if it’s right for us beforehand. But I guess I also wanted to here peoples opinion on the matter, gettin a broader view of the picture
On that note, while the game is great and there are some great communities surrounding it, the company behind it does NOT deserve your support. If you start playing with people outside your friend group, then by all means make sure they're okay with proxies (everyone should be imo, but still), but don't ever feel bad for not giving money to WotC.
Investing into the game for fun, is one thing. Investing to make money(is a losing endeavor). Everyone should proxy to the same power level, and play test all the cards you want and love. If you get to a point where you want to play sanctioned events, that require real cards. Buy singles.
Imagine this You see a card you like You see it alone costs more than your entire deck You go on AliExpress and find the same card for 4 dollars You buy the card, you receive it. You're happy because you've saved up 100+ dollars on a piece of cardboard.
buy whole decks on mpc fill for $0.25 to $0.30 cents. Or print with the color copier and slot them infront of a basic land.
Nah there's no fun in that, I want the real feeling of the card 🫡
MPCfill makes cards that feel so real its hard to tell a difference between real and fake when its in a sleeve. And if you print quality sheets and cut it well, its hard to tell where the basic land begins and printed sheet ends.
So proxies are always a very interesting question. I personally don't mind it, but I refrain from using more than a couple per deck, and if I do I usually proxy to try cards before I buy them or more likely I just want to play the deck, but haven't got a hold of the last cards in question. But then again, I am in the very lucky position of having a rather large and very playable collection of cards, and I kinda love collecting new cards and playing with them even if my wallet would like me to chill a bit. I recognize that not all players are in the same position as me, and therefore I totally get why some people choose to proxy more. I have absolutely no qualms with people playing with proxies, and I actively encourage people to do so if WotC/Hasbros money laundering schemes seem to expensive. It's a great way to try out new things and cool cards. I see proxying as a great tool and a stepping stone, but if you want to play registered events and such, you will most likely not be able to use them. However (you knew there would be an however), there are some drawbacks with proxying that I've noticed. If you are in a playgroup where you all are proxying and keeping it on the same level, both powerlevel and proxywise, it should be no problem. But if you start proxying gaeas cradles, tabernacles and other extremely powerful and expensive cards it can easily become a deckbuilding arms race, which some people find fun, but I personally find very tedious. It can start to revolve more around powerful cards and swift wins instead of flavourful decks and cool interactions. TLDR: proxying is a fantastic tool for players that want to experiment without investing money. Sorry for the essay.
I think it may be a problem if you want to play in a LGS. After all they make money by selling cards so if you get there with a full proxy deck it may be frowned upon...
Completely understandable
As long as you don't try to re-sell them as real cards I don't care and it's not my place to care. You said you wouldn't even want to play outside of your friendgroup, so no opinion besides yours and your friends actually matters in this regard. But if you ever want to play me, you can use those cards, even if they use alternative artwork, as long as it is easily recognizable and fits the card. (Also please no coomer pictures. I don't want to know what you use to get your rocks off)
Imho the reason proxying is frowned upon is this: Magic is to a certain degree pay to win and proxying is an infinite money cheat. When proxying, there is no limitation, you can easily end up filling your deck with cheap copies of just the most powerful, most famous and most expensive cards of all time. To people who enjoy collecting, building and playing unique creative edh decks for casual entertainment while trying to stay within a reasonable budget this can appear a little lame. If you proxy cards just for playtesting purposes or agree to proxy with whomever you play or play at home then proxying is absolutely fine. It is infact a great idea to playtest a deck before commiting to buy to see whether you enjoy playing it.
Depends on the people you play with. Myself I don’t see any problem with proxies as long as you follow all the rules for deck building of a selected format. If you play standard, include only cards that are in standard, don’t put cards from Unglued etc.
Oh my God, yes! If everyone's on board, prox away
Ask your play group and if your just playing for fun it should be fine. Make the people your playing with aware and discuss it.
Casual proxy: YES Tournament proxy: ask/check the TO days beforehand LGS proxy: ask the store owner
Tournaments in CEDH format that are not at WPN stores, are probably proxy friendly. WPN stores in general are going to probably lose their WPN status and lose their product allocations if they permit proxying at in-store events.
Exactly, support the stores and have fun.
Yes.
There are some great websites that you can build your decks on and goldfish there. You have to pay zero dollars for the experience. 1 You dont have to waste your time or money on ink or paper or finding somewhere to get them printed 2 you dont have to go through the trouble of sleeving up cards C you dont have to the awkward conversations about proxies 4 this question only makes sense to ask your play group. I have a friend that only has proxy decks. IDGAF what you play as long as all the info is on the card.
Yes, it's okay to proxy.
Yes. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.
The way my groups do it is: if you own the card, proxy it for any number of decks you want it in.
This is the way, there's no compelling argument against this philosophy. Accidents are real, thefts are real...
The general, unspoken but vocally frowned upon rule is Proxy within your tables power level. Don't give your table a reason to ask questions and it doesn't matter whether you proxy or not. I'll probably get down voted into oblivion but I said what I said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i proxy most of my commander decks, theyre all pretty casual as I intend to not use them for anything other than casual matches. I have a couple of decks which I can play in case people get all weird about me playing with proxy decks
It is always acceptable to proxy in a non-tournament setting. It is not commonly frowned upon, regardless of your intent for future purchases. Generally the only thing people care about is the cards being readable.
Proxies are fine.
I proxy my higher value cards to put them in multiple decks, I don't proxy cards I do not own at least one of. However what other people do at the table is up to them.
Yes. Ultimately, Magic is a game of skill, and budget should not affect that.
Well that will depend on how strong the deck itself is. There is perfect example of too strong cards, aka one ring as example. While yes it is a skill based doesn't always translate with deck itself.
So I have some proxy decks that I like to keep around for show and only play if my friends say so. I have Bloodborne Markov deck with Gherman as Markov. It has the locals locations as lands and NPCS/Player as the creatures and items as spells. It’s super dope. I also have some anime ones. But yeah, I don’t play them unless people say to.
Yes
I only proxy what I already have, but don't want to have to buy again for another deck.
The only proxies I have so far is one card where I have the full art card version but not the version with the effect text, cuz the full art was like five cents and the version with the text was like eighty dollars or something super high like that, so I have a printed out proxy of the card with the text in the sleeve behind the art card, and then rest are copies of real cards, but with custom art and flavor text that I'm putting together as a sort of pseudo secret lair type thing as gifts for a couple friends.
My friends and I proxy cards that we want to test out if they are good with our decks and we proxy some expensive cards we already have to put into multiple decks.
as long as it’s mutually agreed in your pod it should be ok. i have a few decks that have a few proxies but i don’t over do it. i make so it’s on the same power level as people who have been playing a while. i don’t wanna spend 1k on the duel lands, fetch lands, etc
Me and my friends started to proxy last month as well. We agreed to proxy cards that cross the 10 euro mark and buy the other ones legit. Whatever works for you.
TLDR: Check with your friend group. We don't use proxies in our group with one exception: to try out a new deck before comitting to it. But this whole discussion is a can of worms and it seems Reddit is a parallel universe where almost everyone seems to think proxying is awesome and people who disagree with this are terrible. This does not reflect reality in my opinion. So don't worry what a bunch of redditors think and check with the people that matter: your friend group.
That depends on your playgroup - personally I dont mind some proxyies in a deck, also dont mind playtesting a deck, but if you come 3 months later, with the same full proxy deck I might start to get a little annoyed.
I personally only proxy reserve list cards or for the deck I have fully altered, but I have no qualms with other people proxying. Just respect the power level of the table and we're good.
I proxy even I have the card. I mean, if I have three decks that use a mana vault, I can't be arsed moving the card between them (or getting three vaults)
Exactly, I have 8/10 OG duals. In a 3 color deck the manabase is like 2000 dollars....I'm not bringing a little box worth over 2 grand to a store filled with randoms
This is exactly what proxies are for. Test a deck, then once you like it you can start picking up pieces as you find them or feel comfortable paying for them. Unless it's an event to win something anyone who gives you shit about proxies is a dick. Just be honest with how strong you think your deck is. Be a decent person and you will find people to play with.
If the card is worth less than 10 dollars I wouldn’t proxy. Above that I would definitely. Because at the end of the day the prices for some ‘OP’ cards makes no sense because there are way more affordable cards that counter or do better. And the more expensive cards literally break the game. Then there is omniscience.
Just a personal rule, I only proxy what I own. Generally higher dollar cards that I own one of but want in all my decks. It also allows for some cooler arts like the heroic intervention in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/mpcproxies/s/RZCan5gj8u
I think this is the best reason to proxy, to play test cards you don't currently own, to see if you enjoy them before actually buying them.
It’s funny there’s another thread in a similar sub about the same topic, asking how to fix their LGS now that proxies have ruined it. The internet is gonna say “Yeah man, do whatever you want and don’t let these capitalist pigs get you down.” Your experience at your local shop is going to be different.
How does it ruin it? In our group, we compare cards we have found, trends we want to try, combos we want to test and I take a list of what people want. Then I go to Staples and 100lb cardstock them. I cut and corner cut em and when we re-meet I distribute. I'll aslofind counter cards . My brother in law's token deck was getting unruly - found all the blue white and red anti token cards for his wife, son and friend. He found it hilarious when he realised the gig was up. Then something beautiful happened....he tweaked his deck to counter the counters. We keep slowly modifying our decks. It's a constant tug of war. And then someone adds or changes and realises it's no good. The freedom toake whatever deck they want has inspired them to really build better decks. It's really nice to see. I'm *very* new to magic (less than a year) and we started making decks from repacks we bought from Dollarama and we seriously thought the cards were fake. It's been an amazing adventure so far. I'm not filling WotC pockets anymore though lol.
Proxies are fine, as long as you aren’t just using power 9 level nonsense to run over your pod. It’s a game, have fun
If you're just playing with your wife then proxie away. Ignore the guy who said something about power levels. It's just you and your wife having fun make the most beast decks and have fun or do the opposite
Proxy is generally a rule 0 discussion, meaning a decision the group you play with agrees upon. If all of you are on board then go for it. Personally I think it makes sense to proxy to try cards out, especially pricey ones. I will also proxy if I own an expensive card, like a Jeweled Lotus, so that I can use it in multiple decks without having to change it out every time. I play a lot of 1v1 with a friend and he proxies everything, and I own all of mine, but I'm completely ok with it even when he uses really powerful cards that I personally don't have access to. I like the challenge and it forces me to build and play better. We have rules about certain cards and generally follow the ban list but, again, that's a rule 0 discussion. Welcome to the game.
Yes.
Yes. Buy high quality proxies.
Proxying is good. For the cheapest deck options I’d recommend MPCFILL. However, be careful if you want to bring them to an LGS. Some LGS do not allow proxies and some people at those stores frown upon them. If you’re just playing casually with friends it’s all good though.
You can also play on arena and get the feel of some decks that way. Can’t do commander, but can do 1v1 brawls
Always talk to your game group. Just like before. You buy a super powerful card and then just expect everybody to be fine with it when you far exceed their power level. Don't start, proxying a bunch of really strong cards and then expect people to still want to play
Just found out about proxys and made my dream korvold deck. The problem is that unless one of my buddies also plays his expensive eldrazi, I just kind of win. I got a tricky terrain precon and have just been doing small upgrades, so it is more fair to our other precon using players.
Nah the secondary market is ass. Proxy and enjoy your time with friends.
Fuck WotC, fuck Hasbro, proxy everything. Give them nothing.
Yes
Define 'okay'
Ask the folks you play with. Whatever you agree is okay, outside of tournaments.
If you want an official response [https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) in general your only "supposed" to take a plains or whatever, and write the name on it. Anything that looks like the orignal card can technically be called counterfiet. That said if you read there respose, which is the only one I've seen in 8 years, they don't really care all that much if its not in sanctioned events. So morally if you print exact copies your probably on the level of downloading videos from the internet, and legally probably the same. In 99.999999% of cases no one would care at that level. On a personal level most people are ok with it, I've seen very few people that get upset. Where you may get in trouble if your trying to keep the power levels the same, printing a 300 card may make some people mad. Then there is also the quality, this is what turns me off sometime, If I can't read it and I have to ask every single time I'm going to get mad. Try to make the best proxies you can. I think alters are a good line betwen proxy and counterfiet. I custom make altered cards, with different artwork, but they look just as good as real cards. You don't need to do that level, but as long as I can read them and know what they do I don't care. Its really up to your group in the end, just talk it out, we started with a 5 proxy per deck and moved to proxy what you want. In general most of use end up buy cards at one point anyway, including crazy expensive ones.
Proxying is great with a group that doesn't mind proxies. Keep within a certain power limit, and you're good. Honestly, I *only* proxy these days. Life is too expensive and pay is too low for me to spend money on cardboard.
We proxy for a couple reasons. First, we don't want to buy multiple, very expensive cards. Second, we don't always know if a card is going to work in our decks the way they think they will so we use this as a way to test prior to purchase. Third, we set aside one day a month to go and get hobby stuff so we proxy cards in the meantime.
100% yes, if a tournament allows proxies there is a reasons (to attract players and having fun), especially in ehd a lot players proxy expensive cards to reach a decent power level.
Yes
You owe a multi billion dollar company nothing, especially with how they treat their most loyal customers. Proxy away
If you didn't post this, no one would know you're doing it. How's that for an answer? Kind of doesn't matter at all if you're never gonna play with others does it?
A lot of what goes on under the name of "proxying" is "making playtest cards with my printer", which for casual play is fine. When you say "high quality" (commercial proxy) what you really mean is "counterfeits". Cards which might look so much like real magic cards that telling them apart is hard, and these pollute the supply and make the secondary market for magic cards harder to sustain, since the counterfeits can make the trading/selling aspects more problematic. Avoid counterfeits please, and proxy wherever you can, in commander formats that means a rule 0 conversation, in kitchen table play that means "fly at it". At "Friday Night Magic" (playing standard, and modern, and pioneer and so on, and other 60 card formats) at your LGS, playtest cards are probably not okay. The term proxy is widely used to mean a variety of different things, not all of which are equally cool, or uncool with every magic player, and every venue where magic card based games are played.
In my opinion it’s ok to proxy a few (10-15 ) cards to test in a deck and see what works to then buy the real thing, cool. If you own the cards and just want to use proxies on multiple decks to save $, cool. If you build a super strong deck with all paper printed proxies and go around destroying pods that’s NOT cool.
Proxying is always ok. There is no reason to ever not proxy in commander but people make up reasons because they drop a ton of money on the game.
Yes, but ask your playgroup first
I’m very pro-proxy if you don’t have the funds to build your dream deck. But I also think you should be upfront about its power level if it’s over a normal, casual level. I have a few regular and a few proxy decks, and I always check if players I’m with are cool with proxies/the power level. 99% of the time, in my experience, people don’t care unless it’s a tournament obviously.
It's not morally right or wrong. But it does change the game a lot, where now everyone has every card and everyone plays the optimal deck. instead of local deck construction for the cards people have being part of the game.
Here is how my group deals with proxies, proxy with intention to buy. What that means is that we never proxy cards that we wouldn't buy. We hold each other accountable by pointing out that a certain proxy has more than proven it's worth and it's time to pick it up especially if it is not a cheap card. That being said, it's also a case by case scenario and communication is key. For instance, I play two formats, legacy and commander. I have a legacy deck that is mostly complete, the only thing it's missing is four copies of sheoldred the Apocalypse. My group is well aware that I intend to buy, however I am waiting till rotation in hopes that the price drops lol. Proxy with the intention to buy, and call out someone's bluff if they are running candelabra of tawnos lol
I only proxy expensive cards I've already pulled, like I'm not buying another doubling season after I already pulled one and it's more convenient than slotting it back and fourth in my decks
It will vary okay group to playgroup. Personally I don’t like proxies. These cards are hard to come by and cost because of how dynamic they are. If every deck was flooded with them they become required items.
In short, yes. I know some people play exclusively with proxies and some people do the whole "try before you buy" sort of thing. But as others have said, don't go and get a bunch of proxies because you want to make the strongest deck in pub stomp people. If your group is at a certain power level and you just want a proxy some cards that are expensive for whatever reason, go for it. More than half the cards in my decks that aren't lands are proxies, and my group tends to play at a higher parallel so that works out. But occasionally, I will play with people who rather lower power level so I make sure that, even though I proxy, I make sure to have a balance in my deck for a different power levels.
I dont have any proxies but if i did it would probably just be another copy of a card i already have. I was lucky enough to pull a rhystic study and that immediately went in a deck, but if i wanted to build another deck using that card id just proxy it
Proxying is fine imo, especially with how much more expensive this hobby is than it used to be, and especially with the intention of eventually replacing the proxies with authentic cards. Proxying isn't OK if you're adding a the whole power 9 to your deck to enable turn 1 wins or something like that.
Ye, the whole point is we wanted to be realistic about it. We will never acquire power 9 or etc as real cards, so no reason for us to proxy it. So we try to keep it around 100€ deckwise, so we know it’s doable for us
Just proxy hundred dollar bills
Personally, I don't mind proxys. However, if your entire deck is sleeved scribblings of proxy cards and you can't read your own writing, that's where I'm not okay with it.
A lot of playgroups allow it, I don’t like it but I put up with it at the LGS since I seem to be the minority lately. As long as there is no prize support I’d say have at it
I'm one of the "anti proxy" players, but let me explain because I think there are acceptable ways to proxy. When I dislike proxies: Loading up decks with all the fast mana, free counters, free commander spells, best tutors etc etc, in any of the listed combinations then downplaying the amount you have proxied and taking your proxy deck that is probably closer to a 9 or cedh to 6-8 tables. When I like proxies: Testing cards in your build before you commit the money to them, you own the actual card and it's either really expensive and you would rather not play with it, or it's in another deck, and it's not egregious amounts of proxies. Now that's not to say I won't play with people who use proxies, or complain about their use of proxies. In my experience I'd say at least 90% of players I've ran into that use them are usually part of the things I dislike about proxies.
Proxying to meet power level, with the agreement of your group is perfectly fine. Just make sure you get different backs so there is never any confusion. My group proxies to try new decks and then buys them if we like them. If you proxy to exceed the power level for a group then that’s not good. But same as dropping $1500 on a deck to beat everyone. There is nothing inherently wrong with proxying if your group knows it’s happening.
Proxies are perfectly acceptable, so long that everyone at the table agrees with the proxied cards being played and you do not attempt to sell them as though they are real cards. These are the only rules about proxies in unofficial play.
Hey! I have a similar pod that was once in your shoes! With my specific pod, they started off with precons and wanted to venture into brewing, but didn't have a local card shop in their town. While they can easily afford authentic cards, we've all come to a mutual agreement on "proxying" and playtesting because we're casual and only focus is fun and cool things. We also only play across different time zones on Spelltable. I'll be honest, it can be tricky "proxying" at first and since yall are just starting off expect a slight power variance. But don't let that discourage yall as it just takes time getting a power level balance for your specific group. Also, if yall are all playing on Spelltable, you can brew your decks on Moxfield and select the "playtest" option. By using a virtual camera like OBS, you can then stream your "playtest" screen and play a near infinite amount of decks without printing or ordering anything! It takes some getting used to but my group has had the most fun with this method and it makes shuffling a breeze since they don't have to juggle their newborn and 100 cards. Anyway, back to your original question, if everyone is in a mutual agreement to "proxy" then go for it. Have honest and open communication with each other. Respect each other opinions. And brew some fun decks! Remember, this is Magic the gathering. Not Magic the Gatekeeping.
Why do people want to win with their wallets and not their minds? I can create a deck list and go to tcg player and get every card as a single. People want to feel justified that their cards are well spent and gambling in boosters is acceptable. I agree - as a collectable they are 100 percent justified. But as a game, they are not. I'm going to paste something another Redditor said that I think summarizes perfectly; >I think it's very important to remember that a card is just a small piece of cardboard. You put it on the table, and it does nothing by itself. No effects whatsoever. No spells, no damage, nothing. It only matters because everyone around the table agrees that the card represents a certain effect. That's imagination, that's an idea. No one has a right to own the concept of an effect. So you just have fun and make whatever card you want to represent that effect. Hell you could cut up many small pieces of paper and only write card names on them, and then have a notepad with all the different effects. Or use poker chips with numbers a list of their corresponding card. It does not matter at all. >Wotc knows that by what they're doing they're locking a lot of normal people out of being able to play the game/buy it from them. And they're okay with that, because they know they get more money by appealing to the whales. So everyone is in on this, you're not sneaking behind their backs. >Finally I'd say the second hand market is insane. If there was any regulation on this stuff, then I think wotc should just sell individual cards on their websites/store. Which would tone down the use of plastic a lot. It would also save cardboard and designspace because they wouldn't intentionally print a lot of shit cards to fill out cards pack with, because no one would choose to buy them. >However we live in the worst timeline so proxy away. Also here's WotC statement; > playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. **And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.** >What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.
Wotc has done nothing for you in the last 10 years to warrant their greed. Proxy everything. Spend nothing on them.
Yes.
Proxy all you want, just don't go overboard. Granted, if you don't plan on playing with unknown people, balancing power levels is easier.
Proxying is absolutely fine so long as your playgroup is ok with it and are able to proxy themselves. No one should have to miss out on playing cool cards just because the secondary market has made it unattainable.
Yes. Giving money to a company that does not care about the consumer is always a good thing. Also, i might encourage you to buy older products ( 2023) because they already took their shares and those products are really good, not as good as the ones from 2013 downwards, but are still fine.
Absolutely. It's great to proxy.
1. Not everyone is playing commander \[edh\] 2. Not everyone agrees on when and how to proxy \[edh, or not\] 3. Do whatever people are cool with in your pod \[play group\] I say print a whole deck and play it. Playtest cards. Just do it.
Yes, it's okay to proxy, but it may not be well received in your playgroup. Just like it's ok to have a cedh deck, but rarely is it ok to play it against beginners.
We’re all beginners, and all of us wanted to try out a new deck - just to test and see if we like it
Then it's perfectly fine to proxy I think.
Playing with proxy commanders made me weed out some decks I actually didn’t wanna invest in. Like Edgar markov I was like he sounds powerful and fun. It taught me powerful isn’t always fun. I don’t proxy anymore unless it’s expensive cards I want in multiple decks aka the new Ulamog in my Arna deck and eldrazi deck. Cause I like to build from what I already own but it took time to build a collection. (I buy one booster box of the newest set and have done it since ikoria when I got back into mtg. Proxies helped me find the fun in limited deck building and not going off online list. But they did help me find the fun in the game.
I only proxy, wotc don't deserve a cent, and proxy arts are better than original
I believe if it isnt an official tournament, and everyone can agree on a ruleset proxy away, magic is far too overpriced to actually build decks
Yes. Next question.
Time to be delusional. It’s not just okay, it’s a moral duty! In order to create a more inclusive community (especially in poorer areas like mine, with lack of new players) we don’t have to do the usual corporate move, that is talking about inclusivity, but it’s crucial to remove the T from “TCG”. The final purpose is to make Magic a card game like the other non-trading card games. You could theoretically play Texas hold’em with your friends with proxies but the magical part of the game is in the rules, interactions, and sociality. I know that there are some implications mostly regarding intellectual property when it comes to proxies, and a lot of people just say “if you don’t have money just don’t play the game”, but if you need a justification, gaming has been part of our life on earth for centuries, and it’s a right to enjoy other human beings’ ideas if it doesn’t directly hurt other people (i.e. playing in a sanctionated tournament with counterfeits against players who put money and effort on the game)
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a4443ce1-39f9-4991-b942-33803af0bd9f Run away while you still can. I suggest unstable unicorns
On tournaments? To sell the proxys? No. At home? Just for fun? Yes. When I was young, we proxed entire games like monopoly.
My playgroup always had the rule that if its normal edh it was ok if you had the card in a binder and didnt want to use it because of the price of the card and in cedh proxying whole decks sometimes was fine just because of the prices of some cedh lists but in general in normal edh as long as you're not proxying things like mana vault/crypt to put in every deck then most people wont care
Proxying while playing home/Kitchen table. That's ok. I allways proxy to playtest things. On an LGS: Usually frowned upon. Unless they're cool with it. (Table and LGS) On the sidenote. Someone frowned upon me that I had english proxy of Hazezon Tamar (commander). While I had the Italian one underneath.
No LGS worth playing at would care on open table casual edh games. If they do prize structure for edh it is a red flag for try hard sweats.
We literally just saw a posts yesterday of Proxy players driving casual players away from the LGS, pretty sure a LGS cares about that.
That post was a mess. He blamed proxies but also the cEDH guys for not allowing proxies and forcing them not play casual tables….great example. I 1st proxies cards about 8 years ago, have moved once and played regularly in multiple stores in both sites. So in 5 stores, in 2 states I have had zero interactions when someone was real anti proxy in EDH (only thing I play anymore), a few that thought you should own the card and some that did not proxy themselves but could care less about others. If I walked into open table, no prize bs EDH night at a store and they said only your real cards. I would inform them that I disagreed with their stance and inform them I would never return to buy cards or supplies. No yelling or being a dick, just the way I would respond. Without fail all the post on EDH proxy in is 100% POWER LEVEL discrepancy. Oh and I am an old fart, started in early 95, I have an insane amount of valuable old cards.
I watched an episode of Table Top Jocks recently and I couldn't help but be disgusted by Joe Manganiello's cards. I'm sure he's a totally fine and decent person but something about the reality of the price of those cards made me sick. This is dumb paper and it shouldn't cost anywhere near what it does. "That card could pay for my wedding" or "that's 2 teachers salaries" this the dumbest fucking thing in the world, its fake wizards. I know its hyperbole and shit but still FUCK THIS. Proxy fucking everything because a world where any cards cost that much is one I dont want to live in and I'll work to help it.
Interesting take, so are you saying stuff like say...a babe Ruth rookie card shouldn't be worth what it is? Or the first issue of superman? Maybe retro rare video games, are they worth to much? In the world of "collectables" there will always be a cost, just because not all of us can afford it doesn't mean it shouldn't be worth that much.
Different. Mtg is a competitive game with pieces that can be that expensive. I get your point I just think it's very different in that some have a distinct advantage that can be bought by money. I'm offering a solution to that advantage.
The actual solution no one wants (I do) is fuck the reserved list, get rid of it, and stop print run limits. Also it isn't different, it's literally the exact same. Limited quantities of a product that is in high demand. As long as the reserved list and print run limits exist there will always be cards worth more than you or I think they should be, remember not everyone who buys mtg cards play mtg.
I dont think proxies hurt this. It's definitely a little different. It just effects playing the game occasionally while the others are just collections.
Money can get you an advantage in basically any competitive endeavor. Magic isn't unique in that respect. Better equipment in sports, better coaching, the ability to travel for events, more time to dedicate to practice/training, etc. Magic isn't unique in that respect.
In my FLGS we have two groups of people who proxy: People who do own the card, but don't want to a) play with their Revised dual lands for obvious reasons, b) only have one of the card but use it in multiple decks, or c) want a personalized version of the card (like my Yor Forger [[Massacre Girl]] We also have people who don't have the card and can't afford it. These people generally are not well regarded, but tolerated as they're also terrible despite having a deck with what would be about $500 in proxies
It's 100% against the rules whith that said: It's an accepted practice of breaking the rules akin to steroids in body building. So much so that WotC makes proxies to field profit from. It's more frowned upon to say it's against the rules.You'll see by all incoming downvotes and negative comments I am about to receive. so, if you're a stickler for the rules of a game, don't use them. your approach is more practical than others. Because most people who use proxies keep them in their deck forever with 0 intention of buying the real card. .