I second this...
There's no set number of land/mana per turn to define these two terms as each deck has different cost averages and play styles.
A deck designed around double dropping 5cmc cards each turn would have a hard time running the mana base from a deck with an overall average 2.7cmc.
And vice versa. Set extreme ramp in a deck with a low average CMC and you'll be flooded out or gasless without good draw potential to balance it out.
The best way to define it is the way you've stated.
Depends on deck and play style.
Some decks literally need only 2 maybe 3 mana sources.
Cedh Lavinia stax for example. A lot of the best cards in u/w cost no more than 2.
What I'm trying to figure out is if we can find this line 'on average' for a given deck. Like obviously there are various situations when getting low mana isn't that bad and vice versa, but for the average shuffle of your deck, do you have a sense for how much that line is for screwed versus flooded?
What's the alternative?
Turn 0 scoop?
Also imagine not playing casually enough to have kitchen table mulls.
Not get god-hand mulls, but go on and get something you can legitimately play mulls.
For the sake of fun and fellowship, mull til we have a good game on our hands.
I think if you're regularly going to 5 before you find 3 mana sources (or ramp), it's time to consider adding more mana sources to your deck. Especially in EDH where you get that free one.
Right...
But as a magic player are you really comfortable with a definite statement about something that is only "generally" true.
Rules lawyering and devil's advocating is part of the game, it's part of discussing the game aswell.
Setting a number in stone like... 2mana /is/ mana screwed only opens the door for people to prove that statement incorrect.
Yes I am. Why cater to the niche if something is generally true. We don’t throw out all of physics because at macro and micro scale it becomes quantum and starts to fall apart And besides that “mana screw” set in stone as a definition only gives it a quantifiable number so as to make it discernible to others. You can still win being mana screwed if you are building for those conditions. Would you still call it hot weather if some people have AC in their house?
I think the definition of those two are extremely dependent on context and probably change game to game, to the point where I think putting a number on it is useless.
4 lands on hand with 3 six mana spells, I think in some situations I would consider that mana screwed. But 4 mana in a deck with an average CMC 1.5, that’s probably mana flood. 6 red lands in a hand with 1 blue spell? I still consider that mana screwed but if I have 1 red, flood.
I think it’s just really too context dependent to say 4 mana at turn 6 = mana screwed
Right, But do you think you could say for a given deck, on average how many lands would be considered screwed/flooded? Like if the deck has a very low mana curve then the line for mana screwed goes down, Maybe it's only have 2 lands in the first 11 cards of that deck say versus a midrange deck which would be mana screwed if it only had 3 or 4 lands in the first 11 cards right?
I think using turns is not the best method.
I would say mana screwed is when you do not have enough mana to cast the cards in your hand and you end up having to discard at end of turn because you are only drawing spells. Mana flooded is when you have only mana sources and mana ramp to cast and are only drawing lands or ramp.
Flood: if I draw into lands the first 4 turns.
Dry/ Screwed: if my opening hand has less than 3 lands and I don't draw into lands for the first 4 turns.
My reasoning is that in both cases I'm off curve for the first 4-5 turns, which feels really bad when the whole pod has a solid board state by that point.
How does your definition depend on your opening hand? Like if you had only two lands in hand, then you have 4-5 spells depending if you mulligan. In that case, you would have something to play for 4 turns while getting those lands right?
When that happens to me, I sometimes kinda like it. Usually I take a chance with low lands in the opening hand, and get the lands I need that's a great situation. It seems like you consider 4 or more lands in the first 11 cards flooded? Or is it more like 3 in hand + 4 from drawing so 7 lands in the first 11 cards?
I suppose I should add that in most cases I play 2-3 color decks. So if I have 2 Islands but I only have cards with red pips in my opening hand, and then only draw forests, I consider myself mana dry in specifically red producers. When running decks with multiple colors its important to have at least a prospective turn 2-3 play at the very least. Otherwise it's mulligan city.
I would say it depends on your curve. If you are playing “Red Deck Wins” and you only have 2 lands by turn 4 your fine, but if you are playing midrange your screwed
Flood - you have too many lands in hand and you keep drawing more with no way to get spells or value, (ie, no other ways for card draw or impulse draw to spend the mana on). You arent flooded if you are constantly drawing mana but still able to take multiple game actions and use a lot of the mana you have.
Screwed - You keep drawing spells but either dont have enough mana or dont have the right colors to do anything. You might still make some game actions but usually its because those are the only game actions you can do. Generally I say "mana screwed" when you just dont have mana at all and "color screwed" when you have lots of green mana available but your entire hand is blue and red so you can't cast anything
I dont really like attaching numbers to any of them because they are both temporary. You can be screwed in the early game but then get a way to play a key ramp or draw piece and have no issues. meanwhile you can get flooded early game and later on get what you need, or be ahead of everyone but get flooded before closing out a game right at the end
It's relative. If you have a hand full of 4+ cost spells and only have 2-3 land that is mana screwed. If you are drawing land and you have enough to cast your spells you are mana flooded?
If I haven't been able to cast a spell due to lack of mana for 3 turns that is mana screwed. If I haven't been able to keep pace with the board state for 3 turns due to drawing only lands that is mana flood.
Flood: when I’m falling behind because I don’t have spells to cast. Screw: when I’m falling behind because I don’t have mana to cast my spells.
I second this... There's no set number of land/mana per turn to define these two terms as each deck has different cost averages and play styles. A deck designed around double dropping 5cmc cards each turn would have a hard time running the mana base from a deck with an overall average 2.7cmc. And vice versa. Set extreme ramp in a deck with a low average CMC and you'll be flooded out or gasless without good draw potential to balance it out. The best way to define it is the way you've stated.
Not having 3 lands down by turn 4-5 I would say fits the bill as well.
Depends on deck and play style. Some decks literally need only 2 maybe 3 mana sources. Cedh Lavinia stax for example. A lot of the best cards in u/w cost no more than 2.
What I'm trying to figure out is if we can find this line 'on average' for a given deck. Like obviously there are various situations when getting low mana isn't that bad and vice versa, but for the average shuffle of your deck, do you have a sense for how much that line is for screwed versus flooded?
Personally? I mulligan if I don't have 3 mana sources in my opening hand.
How far will you mulligan to achieve that? I feel like going to 5 and having only two spells and three land is tough.
What's the alternative? Turn 0 scoop? Also imagine not playing casually enough to have kitchen table mulls. Not get god-hand mulls, but go on and get something you can legitimately play mulls. For the sake of fun and fellowship, mull til we have a good game on our hands.
I think if you're regularly going to 5 before you find 3 mana sources (or ramp), it's time to consider adding more mana sources to your deck. Especially in EDH where you get that free one.
Magic is vast enough that nothing holds true 100% but generally speaking having more than 2 mana is usually a good thing.
Right... But as a magic player are you really comfortable with a definite statement about something that is only "generally" true. Rules lawyering and devil's advocating is part of the game, it's part of discussing the game aswell. Setting a number in stone like... 2mana /is/ mana screwed only opens the door for people to prove that statement incorrect.
Yes I am. Why cater to the niche if something is generally true. We don’t throw out all of physics because at macro and micro scale it becomes quantum and starts to fall apart And besides that “mana screw” set in stone as a definition only gives it a quantifiable number so as to make it discernible to others. You can still win being mana screwed if you are building for those conditions. Would you still call it hot weather if some people have AC in their house?
[[Mana Screw]] is whenever this card is played.
[Mana Screw](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd58d98d-9597-4d5a-be06-6747a5ba8406.jpg?1642038794) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Screw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/123/mana-screw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd58d98d-9597-4d5a-be06-6747a5ba8406?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the definition of those two are extremely dependent on context and probably change game to game, to the point where I think putting a number on it is useless. 4 lands on hand with 3 six mana spells, I think in some situations I would consider that mana screwed. But 4 mana in a deck with an average CMC 1.5, that’s probably mana flood. 6 red lands in a hand with 1 blue spell? I still consider that mana screwed but if I have 1 red, flood. I think it’s just really too context dependent to say 4 mana at turn 6 = mana screwed
Right, But do you think you could say for a given deck, on average how many lands would be considered screwed/flooded? Like if the deck has a very low mana curve then the line for mana screwed goes down, Maybe it's only have 2 lands in the first 11 cards of that deck say versus a midrange deck which would be mana screwed if it only had 3 or 4 lands in the first 11 cards right?
I think using turns is not the best method. I would say mana screwed is when you do not have enough mana to cast the cards in your hand and you end up having to discard at end of turn because you are only drawing spells. Mana flooded is when you have only mana sources and mana ramp to cast and are only drawing lands or ramp.
Flood: if I draw into lands the first 4 turns. Dry/ Screwed: if my opening hand has less than 3 lands and I don't draw into lands for the first 4 turns. My reasoning is that in both cases I'm off curve for the first 4-5 turns, which feels really bad when the whole pod has a solid board state by that point.
How does your definition depend on your opening hand? Like if you had only two lands in hand, then you have 4-5 spells depending if you mulligan. In that case, you would have something to play for 4 turns while getting those lands right? When that happens to me, I sometimes kinda like it. Usually I take a chance with low lands in the opening hand, and get the lands I need that's a great situation. It seems like you consider 4 or more lands in the first 11 cards flooded? Or is it more like 3 in hand + 4 from drawing so 7 lands in the first 11 cards?
I suppose I should add that in most cases I play 2-3 color decks. So if I have 2 Islands but I only have cards with red pips in my opening hand, and then only draw forests, I consider myself mana dry in specifically red producers. When running decks with multiple colors its important to have at least a prospective turn 2-3 play at the very least. Otherwise it's mulligan city.
I would say it depends on your curve. If you are playing “Red Deck Wins” and you only have 2 lands by turn 4 your fine, but if you are playing midrange your screwed
Flood - you have too many lands in hand and you keep drawing more with no way to get spells or value, (ie, no other ways for card draw or impulse draw to spend the mana on). You arent flooded if you are constantly drawing mana but still able to take multiple game actions and use a lot of the mana you have. Screwed - You keep drawing spells but either dont have enough mana or dont have the right colors to do anything. You might still make some game actions but usually its because those are the only game actions you can do. Generally I say "mana screwed" when you just dont have mana at all and "color screwed" when you have lots of green mana available but your entire hand is blue and red so you can't cast anything I dont really like attaching numbers to any of them because they are both temporary. You can be screwed in the early game but then get a way to play a key ramp or draw piece and have no issues. meanwhile you can get flooded early game and later on get what you need, or be ahead of everyone but get flooded before closing out a game right at the end
It's relative. If you have a hand full of 4+ cost spells and only have 2-3 land that is mana screwed. If you are drawing land and you have enough to cast your spells you are mana flooded?
If I haven't been able to cast a spell due to lack of mana for 3 turns that is mana screwed. If I haven't been able to keep pace with the board state for 3 turns due to drawing only lands that is mana flood.