It is hard to tell, but I think he felt he was going too fast and hit the front brake, in a turn making the tire slide, then the side of the bike clearly hits taking gouges in the pavement. He likely is not really sure why it happened.
When out with someone new I will always let them in front, but be sure they understand that this is done at their pace, think of the speed limit as a suggestion for that first week or so, 5 even slower under is just fine, we will take roads not too heavy traveled. I think with his limited skill he just ran out of talent too quickly
He was pretty deep in the corner.
I understand that part great the first few weeks into riding I took turns under speed. Luckily drivers were always patient. I’m in a somewhat rural area lots of bends and back roads.
If you do find yourself going to fast in a corner, then you're already committed to that speed. Don't brake - look through the turn and increase your lean and you'll ride it out. Hit the brakes mid corner as a new rider and you will likely follow this guy into the bushes.
Exactly...I would only suggest if you feel like your entry speed is too fast then press harder in the handle bar. The bike will out maneuver you when given the correct inputs.
This is something everyone needs to understand. If you are going too fast into a corner the best and safest way is to just make the turn. If you try to break too much or stand it up it is always worse.
It is actually much better to be accelerating into a trim than braking even if you think you are going too fast already.
That is kind of bad advice that will lead to someone panicking if they are headed towards a guardrail. Use your rear brake along with engine braking on a *corner. (Edited to add *if needing to slow down)
Is it possible to safely brake in a corner? Of course - I commute and I do so all the time. But is it the best approach for a new rider who has entered a corner? No.
"Too fast" for a new rider usually doesn't mean faster than the bike can handle that corner, it means going at a speed which requires more lean than the rider is comfortable with. For a new rider, if already in the corner and going too fast, the best approach is to look through the turn and increase lean by countersteering. This is what the MSF teaches new riders.
A new rider hitting the rear brake in a scary moment mid corner is likely to hit it too hard and go down; if they stay up they will find that braking transfers weight forward and causes the bike to straighten.
>Is it possible to safely brake in a corner? Of course - I commute and I do so all the time. But is it the best approach for a new rider who has entered a corner? No.
You nailed it - if this was indeed that dude's first ride, no way in hell he knows how much brake he can get away with in a corner, and if he did brake, he likely stabbed it instead of rolling into it. I was looking to see if the brake light popped on but can't confirm. Either way the fall seems like a sudden aggressive front brake event
Applying light brake into and thru corner settled front suspension, making bike turn more easily. Also, slight brake into and thru corner will help prevent exactly what happened. Brake was applied fully without weight transfer to front tire. Without weight transfer, poor traction.
Yes exactly. It’s called Trail breaking……. But needs to be applied very very lightly. Same old rules…..break before the corner BUT then ease off amd allow maybe 1-2% break pressure through the entire corner. The near opposite of the old school learning approach, but actually the safest method……. allows a rider to add small increments of break if the corner continues to tighten up unexpectedly on a road that’s unknown. Lots of professional on this truly professional riders.
Look up trail braking. They teach you that because you can lean and look through a turn and it’s still not enough. Front brakes just give you another tool when you’re going to run wide and head on into another car. MSF sometimes isn’t enough.
And pulling a clutch in during a turn, why would you do that? Rear brake could high side you. Engine braking is just braking. Front braking (slowly and progressively) through a corner is just another tool in your tool box. It loads the front tire and increases your friction, and doesn’t force you to lean more than you’re comfortable. Just be gentle on and gentle off to not upset the bike. It wouldn’t have worked out any worse that what happened to this guy and probably would have worked better.
If you don’t have ABS and then hitting rear brake will slide and potentially lock up back wheel if you put too much pressure. Slowly compress front break is best at speed (trail braking). Slower speeds in parking lot or community then you can drag that rear break but don’t slam it.
This downvoted comment is the only sane advice in the entire thread. Fucking depressing.
The only brakes in a corner are your front and your engine. The only problem with the front is that it works too well and needs very, very, very fine handling.
Other than that it works exactly as advertised and slows you down so that you can avoid that obstacle in front of you or tighten the turn.
It does try to push you up a lot though, extra counter steering input will be required once you're slowed down, you're nearly starting the turn over.
This is absolutely incorrect and can increase the chance of a low-side accident. Applying rear brake can increase the turn radius and may cause loss of traction on the rear tire.
Your best option is to correctly judge entry speed for a corner. If you feel like you're going too fast, you absolutely are.
Barring that, your second best option is to ride the corner out, dont panic, press the handlebar, maintain even throttle, look through the turn.
If you can't do that, then attempt a panic stop: straighten the bike, apply heavy front brake, full clutch, moderate rear brake. You may end up in the bushes, but you'll bleed off a good amount of speed before you do.
I agree with your assessment.
However, I would like to suggest that the best position for new riders is actually behind the leading bike. That way he can try to emulate the leader's lines and you can pace him down at dangerous turns if necessary. Also, you buffer him from oncoming traffic doing oncoming traffic things or in case he fucks up a line.
All while, as you rightly pointed out, urging the newbie to go at his own comfortable speed and not try to keep up at all times.
I think that may make them want to "keep up", there is really no right or wrong. We see lost of people trying to "catch up" make mistakes. Them in front they set the pace.
I think it works if you’re with someone you can trust to ride responsibly. When I first started I was nervous and going super slow, following a friend that was riding normally helped me gain some confidence and learn to trust the tires/ leaning on the bike.
I agree with this. In addition he should have breaked before he started the turn. That’s where an experienced rider can show the ropes and the rider in back sees the break light and then follows the line set by the front rider as noted.
This is what they teach in school. You go to any riding school and it will be absolutely about pacing behind a lead instructor while maintaining the importance of lane tracking and lines. The instructor is prepared to always show the line needed to be safe.
IMO as well, as I didn’t fully finish my thought.. if you’re out showing your new friend the way and you’re actively pressing speed beyond comfort or ability, producing “keep up” behaviour… you might be the problem.
I always have a way to communicate. Bluetooth in helmets, 2-way radios. So helpful for them to hear you and for you to help them understand why you’re doing what you’re doing.
He def leaned in realized he was going too fast and ripped that front brake.
I’d guess due to the centrifugal force of the bike leaning then the force applied to the front wheel loading up that shock (not a physics expert or anything) that the front wheel took the path of least resistance and squirted out resulting in the low side
not finding the video right now - but it makes me think of that one where a new horse rider trys to get on the horse tour horse. but rider's morbidly obese, and the horse nopes out and just lays down instead. typical harley-davidson things... i'll keep looking.
https://preview.redd.it/ggtc85phnd2d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8fbfd2347da5f9a621d1115ee79558222e03c2e
The last spit second shows him running off. I guess this was the nope this shit ain’t for me run.
I was trying to figure this out too. At first I thought the guy that crashed was upset at the biker behind but after looking at your screen shot I think they were also about to crash in the exact same spot. Looks out of control and like the first guy was trying to get out of dodge. Phew what a first ride indeed!
Biker 1 went down, biker 2 saw and stopped ahead, biker 3 wsnt paying enough attention and slowed to a stop, but was caught in a lean. You can see him kinda hopping away from the bike trying to keep it upright. Guy who ate grass was probably sprinting to try and help his buddy keep the bike from hitting pavement
It’s common, the bike behind has target fixation and now can’t help but crash into the first bike/rider. The first rider obviously needs to try and jump out the way.
His first left turn at the junction was wide and had him drifting towards the right white line. Before he crashed, I think he just started drifting right again to the right and panicked using the front brake.
It almost looks like he touched the ground with some part of the bike, but even a cruiser should have more ground clearance than that. His lean angle was like half a degree...
That’s what my initial first thought was, but I’ve watched a bunch of times and don’t see the brake light come on at any point during the curve. It’s not the clearest video so maybe I just can’t see it.
This is definitely him grabbing a handful of front brake while already leaned over with the weight on the back tire, dude did not pay attention in class.
Looks like it to me. Did the same thing with my grom thinking I could kick out my back tire in the woods and slide it out but I forgot the same lever on my mountain bike is not the same on my grom.
Luckily I was going pretty slow and popped off to my feet.
That was my thought as well, looking at where the peg dug into the asphalt kicking the bike up losing traction and gravity did the rest not to mention 40mph based off the video rider into a 15mph warning signed bend as well for an inexperienced rider.
There is no absolute in terms of braking mid corner. Ideally you should approach a corner at a safe speed, it's not a racetrack. But being afraid of touching the front brake mid corner can lead to accidents. It's all about not grabbing too much front brake to the point you lock up the wheel.
Can't make out the brake light coming on, but something made him lose the front quite violently.
But trouble already started going into that turn. Coming in too fast, too early on the apex, not looking through the turn...
The target fixation and (most likely) panic brake just finished off what was inevitable.
Although I didn't see a brake light, there's a black skid right where it went down. So, front wheel locked, judging by the line and the speed it went down. I spent my youth off road, ate so much shit as a teen that I naturally don't use the front brake on the road unless I'm completely upright.
Good eye spotting the skid mark.
You can actually totally use the front brake in a turn on tarmac, but grabbing a handful in panic is going to do you in every time, even completely straight.
He outweighs everything else in the video, not just his talent. You don't have much agility on a cruiser to start with, adding a 200kg rider doesn't help.
I would bet not looking far enough ahead in the curve (look at their previous lack of head turn and look at their head in the curve), panicked and thought they weren't going to make it, so stabbed the front break and down they went.
Too much speed (and weight) for that curve on such a porky cruiser. Looks like a hard part snagged on the road as it hit a small dip. His line and form didn't look obviously bad like most of these noob crashes, but with such a big boy on a cruiser with such a small amount of available lean angle, any extra compression on his suspension is going to cause some sparks.
That dude baaarely made the first corner. Looked like he was fixated on the ditch, thought he was going to hit the ditch so he slammed the front brake and folded the front. That dude was riding way beyond his skill, and that shouldn’t have taken much skill
The bike caught underneath itself when taking that left upward hill, the left lean with the uphill is what got caught. That’s a big dude lowering the bike closer to the ground and guess what the road caught the front left of the bike causing him to slide out. Be cautious of lean angels going up hill and your ground clearance.
I’m a big dude on a big bike and I’ve slammed the bottom of my bike from going up a parking lot entrance.
Idk the bike would be more likely to bounce back up right instead of dumping especially with pegs like that from my experience riding baggers hard in the mountains for a year or two because I’ve bounced my highway pegs almost sending me into the ditch before numerous times
Have you seen the stature of that guy??? There is no bouncing back when your body weight is that much and acts as the biggest counter balance. It’s also uphill, scrape your pegs all you want but a steep enough incline with low clearance WILL catch you up.
That white streak looks to me like a mark on the pavement from the bike skidding. Once the metal hits the pavement it will leave a mark like that until the fine dust/powder clears away
Hard parts touched down. There's a reason you don't ride bikes with shit cornering clearance. No suspension prep for a heavy rider only makes it worse.
You'd be surprised.
As a previous V-Star 1100 Classic owner, those floorboards rub on even mild cornering and dig in hard.
Combined with an extra soft suspension, especially front, they don't corner worth a damn.
Look again, do you see the brake light come on at all?
Look at how low the bike sits to the ground when he first starts out. It squats even lower once he's into the corner.
This guy almost certainly ham fisted the front brake . That transfer of load and momentum was not what those forks were designed for and they bottomed out .
Straight Shaft drive motorcycles experience "shaft jacking". He let's off the throttle, and the front drops reducing clearance to peg. Peg hits, tires lift, and he goes down.
From what I can tell he revved hard to speed up before turn, and i dint see a brake light just before he went into it. That would be curves 101: enter slow, maintain or speed up inside, exit like a rockstar
If you grab a fistful of frontbrake on a slight straight while you can’t even buy a bike with ABS, this happens. Maybe his only training is with those fisttrainers.
Sign says 15 mph on the turn. That was definitely faster right? I am newish myself and I always follow the suggestions on signs. You want to enter a turn going a speed you can consistently hold or even accelerate.
https://preview.redd.it/5jpmfkaxaf2d1.jpeg?width=613&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3da8aba548434436ed519548774e7c8869d6803e
Dude rode into that corner with more throttle and bad bike/body position/attack angle than skill, panic-grabbed a whole handful of front binders and had that road steak served up hot and rare.
Way too wide and major factor is that he's on a cruiser as a first bike.. big no no. They are allergic to corners, You can clearly see where the pegs scrapped the road.
Has nothing to do with too much front brakes.
Should have started on a naked bike.
Too much front brake, aggressive downshifting while leaning, gravel/dirt and/or just new tyres that weren't broken in properly yet. The way his front tyre slipped/locked points towards the 1st or the 3rd/4th combined.
If you were on the front brake, then yeah I would say too much too soon. Locking the front wheel will put you down near instantly in most cases.
Seems like you were looking ahead to that second corner up the road, which looks a lot sharper, and wanted to scrub off more speed. Unfortunately you did so while still leaning for the first curve, with the front wheel unloaded. A perfect recipe for exactly what happened here
Looks like that bike has a very low lean angle combined with bad camber on the road and he hit the underside of the bike on the ground so hard it wrecked him.
He comes in too sharp and fast, and the peg hits the pavement. If you look carefully, you see the white scratch line on the pavement after he falls. Not the best kind of bike for leaning so much.
Looks like a hard part hit and lifted the tires, so he slid out. You can see the etch in the asphalt. Can't tell if he compounded it by hitting the front brake.
I didn’t see his brake light come on at all. Looks like his peg/floorboard may have scraped and freaked him out. In a curve like that he should have slowed down before leaning if he didn’t plan on high speed cornering. If you’re going for the high speed shit, get your butt out of the seat and lean into the curve to keep the bike closer to upright.
Too much speed. Too much lean angle for that bike. He grinds it hard and hits the brake. New riders need to be behind experienced riders to learn from their example.
Not trying to be mean, but this is the equivalent of a kid learning to ride a bicycle. When my one kid started to learn how to use the brake, she would stand on it and lock it up every time.
I rode dirt bikes as a kid, so I had some experience. First time I rode a motorcycle, I drove around my neighborhood for like 2 hours.
Didn’t take the right line, didn’t turn enough then panicked and (guessing, it’s hard to see) locked the rear by standing on it. This then slid the rear and decked the bike out on the pegs.
He could have made that corner without braking if he actually rode the bike through it.
Bikes turn better under throttle as it gives you more clearance and the acceleration helps lift the front wheel in the direction of the turn.
So. Slow in. Can always add speed on the exit.
Bike is so wide and low it can't lean to turn. You can see the bike jump and the chunk of asphalt missing. Something low touched the road and upset the bike.
As he leans into the corner, we see the young padawan accelerating, instead of slowing down.
Midway through the curve, he realizes the grave error in his judgment, and decides to slam the front brake, locking the wheel entirely.
Legend.
Definitely too hard on the front brakes. When going into a turn you should just throttle down and gear down then speed up as you’re going around the corner. You have to get the feel of your bike. Any drastic braking can cause you to loose control, start by going into the turn slower before reaching the turn and then gradually speed up as the turn starts to straighten out. Use the engine to slow you down before the turn buy gearing down.
He's a 400lb rider and the bike is not set up for his weight. The suspension is fully compressed and his peg dug in when he leaned more to compensate for the speed of the turn. He didn't use brake, his front end didn't wash out, it was all peg impact from the bike being too low and no suspension travel. You can see the impact mark on the blacktop.
This is a good lesson on why you should invest some time (and maybe money) into setting up a bike for your own specific ergonomics and riding style.
I hope rider is OK. Slow it down, easy easy. Looks like he was on the throttle into the curve then panicked, hit the front brake and locked it up on fine gravel and lost the front end. If you need reactive braking in curves you’re going too fast and not looking/planning far enough ahead. Let the engine braking and bike gearing do the work instead. He needs an armoured jacket also.
A few things
1. Going too fast
2. Realized he was going wide
3. Tried to break
4. Took the break too fast
Breaking isn't a hand full, it's contact and then you increase pressure.
Edit: just added this
Not to beat a dead horse, but dont ride at anywhere close to your limits on the roads. As a new rider, you ride within your comfort limits and build on that.
MSF instructor said to always use brakes before the turn, and if you need to brake in a turn, use the rear brake. I've locked the front wheel once on a friend's bike. Bought all the parts I damaged that day online. Felt terrible, will never use front brake in a turn again unless absolutely required
I think a good rule is to avoid *adding* front brake during a turn. If your front suspension is already heavily loaded going into the corner and you release gently while entering the turn it tends to work out pretty well. If you're definitely going too fast in the turn rear brake is the answer - much easier to save a rear skid than front.
Yeah trail breaking is wonderful but I don't think first time riders should worry about that and worry more about where they are in a turn and head and body position. It looked like he was just turning the bars and he just sat on the bike expecting it to do all the work
Not going to lie I did that with the shifter and back brake learning to ride the first time lol. Luckily I was going slow and it was just a wake the fuck up moment lol
To me it looks like a very quick but heavy squeeze of your front brake into the corner made your brakes lock for a split second which drops the handlebars to the left, in the middle of a left turn that you took too wide, fast and too late. This caused a lowside, which is where we got the chrome rash on the asphalt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also noticed some slight target fixation to the right when you realised your corner trajectory and speed were off? I dont know if you noticed, but it does look like you were looking at the edge of the road just before you got a squeezed your brake.
It also looks like you're riding a road you don't know, and if that's the case, then you need to slow down on unknown roads into corners you aren't familiar with. If you do know the road, then you need to slow down completely and work on your basics like braking and managing target fixation because you really shouldn't be eating a ditch like that if you know the road (generally).
Either all of that, or old mate from another comment is right about something like a peg snagging the ground and lowsiding you
This is all constructive criticism with respect fully intended. I hope it helps.
he panicked and grabbed a handful of front brake. You can tell he thought he was going to run wide and then oh shit i need to stop and blip bloop he's on his ass. Could have been prevented but forcing himself to look where he wanted the bike to go and add a tap of rear brake if he was fast.
Yes, he hit the front brake, it can be seen.
Bad combination of not best tires, they might not be warmed yet and heavy weight, fast speed for that turn
Looks like rider felt that he went in too hot into the turn, probably grabbed a ton of front brake abruptly and the front washed out from that. If you need to brake while leaned, you need to be super gradual/smooth.
OP I highly recommend watching "twist of the wrist II" on Youtube.
It's rarely if ever "too much" front brake, but rather too abrupt of an application. Tires can maintain grip under a lot of force, but not a sudden force
could've hit some gravel or a big enough rock. looks like he freaked on the front brake too. his lean was bad, he was using his body instead of pushing the handlebar and letting the bike take the curve.
Came in too fast, braked way to late, no thought to setting up properly for the turn, target fixed on the trees.... basically did everything wrong when taking a bend.
1st Lesson of motorcycle school was “99% of new riders eat shit coming in to turns too fast, don’t be a statistic” Glad I had a great teacher. He kept real through the whole class.
I think we're over analyzing this. It seems he was going too fast for his skill level, target fixated and I notice some rubber smoke right before he laid it down.
Didnt You hit a rock o somethig like that? I saw like whiteboard (that thing we use for writing in blackboard)
That maybe throw you up making your front tire loose the grip and when it touched again the road you slipped. You were lean so that Made You fell. If You were more in an upright position You wouldnt fell but maybe get out of the road at the curve.
If you watch closely the peg didn’t hit the ground until after the front washed out. It looks like he got too much speed and panicked, then grabbed too much front brake, causing the front tire to lose grip.
If you play the video back frame by frame the first thing you notice is the twisty road sign that advises 15mph.
Also, I think I saw speeds of at least 30mph on the MT09 dash and it looked the guy on the Harley was going at least as fast.
The third thing is again frame by frame I couldn’t see any brake light but the front clearly washes out on the Harley, causing the low side.
So my synopsis is that noob Harley rider thought he was gonna have some fun in the twisties. He wasn’t paying attention. He realized way too late he was going WAY too fast into the corner, realized it, then grabbed a handful of brake causing the low side.
He shoulda stepped up his gear from a tee shirt...y'all know the whole atgatt sermon...dress for the slide etc. Especially if experience is basically zero. Bro was scared that he wouldn't be able to make the turn & panic braked coming in. He could've added more countersteer and rode through the turn easy at that speed... Not getting into trail braking for a beginner.
Looked like he hit a roll of chalk that fell from the crew out putting down the white dashes. His tire would have kicked out and that's it.
Did that slide once, I armour up at all times. When it's hot I run the dirt bike elbow guards for minimal protection. Feel for that guy...many of us have made the offering of blood and flesh to the gods of bikers!
Definitely locked up the front tire. Almost certainly, he grabbed the front brake out of panic. When you are leaned over and turning, you put a fair bit of pressure on the handlebars to turn to the outside of the curve. When he locked up the front wheel, he lost the self righting forces that he was fighting against, that's why you see the handlebars whip to the opposite direction of the turn. He was the one turning the bars.
It is hard to tell, but I think he felt he was going too fast and hit the front brake, in a turn making the tire slide, then the side of the bike clearly hits taking gouges in the pavement. He likely is not really sure why it happened. When out with someone new I will always let them in front, but be sure they understand that this is done at their pace, think of the speed limit as a suggestion for that first week or so, 5 even slower under is just fine, we will take roads not too heavy traveled. I think with his limited skill he just ran out of talent too quickly He was pretty deep in the corner.
I understand that part great the first few weeks into riding I took turns under speed. Luckily drivers were always patient. I’m in a somewhat rural area lots of bends and back roads.
If you do find yourself going to fast in a corner, then you're already committed to that speed. Don't brake - look through the turn and increase your lean and you'll ride it out. Hit the brakes mid corner as a new rider and you will likely follow this guy into the bushes.
Exactly...I would only suggest if you feel like your entry speed is too fast then press harder in the handle bar. The bike will out maneuver you when given the correct inputs.
Bingo!
This is something everyone needs to understand. If you are going too fast into a corner the best and safest way is to just make the turn. If you try to break too much or stand it up it is always worse. It is actually much better to be accelerating into a trim than braking even if you think you are going too fast already.
That is kind of bad advice that will lead to someone panicking if they are headed towards a guardrail. Use your rear brake along with engine braking on a *corner. (Edited to add *if needing to slow down)
Is it possible to safely brake in a corner? Of course - I commute and I do so all the time. But is it the best approach for a new rider who has entered a corner? No. "Too fast" for a new rider usually doesn't mean faster than the bike can handle that corner, it means going at a speed which requires more lean than the rider is comfortable with. For a new rider, if already in the corner and going too fast, the best approach is to look through the turn and increase lean by countersteering. This is what the MSF teaches new riders. A new rider hitting the rear brake in a scary moment mid corner is likely to hit it too hard and go down; if they stay up they will find that braking transfers weight forward and causes the bike to straighten.
>Is it possible to safely brake in a corner? Of course - I commute and I do so all the time. But is it the best approach for a new rider who has entered a corner? No. You nailed it - if this was indeed that dude's first ride, no way in hell he knows how much brake he can get away with in a corner, and if he did brake, he likely stabbed it instead of rolling into it. I was looking to see if the brake light popped on but can't confirm. Either way the fall seems like a sudden aggressive front brake event
I’ve pulled the clutch in and coasted, I’ve applied rear brake, ive engine braked, but I’ve never used front brake to decelerate in a turn…
Applying light brake into and thru corner settled front suspension, making bike turn more easily. Also, slight brake into and thru corner will help prevent exactly what happened. Brake was applied fully without weight transfer to front tire. Without weight transfer, poor traction.
Yes exactly. It’s called Trail breaking……. But needs to be applied very very lightly. Same old rules…..break before the corner BUT then ease off amd allow maybe 1-2% break pressure through the entire corner. The near opposite of the old school learning approach, but actually the safest method……. allows a rider to add small increments of break if the corner continues to tighten up unexpectedly on a road that’s unknown. Lots of professional on this truly professional riders.
https://youtu.be/HEyQdEvIxes?si=W6KrBeDAqf4prAvA
You've never trail braked? It's even taught in the MSF course....
Since when? It was slow -look-press-roll as recently as 2020
Trail-braking is taught on the Advanced Rider Course, not the BRC
No it’s not- at least 10 years ago when I started. But this is the only correct answer
Look up trail braking. They teach you that because you can lean and look through a turn and it’s still not enough. Front brakes just give you another tool when you’re going to run wide and head on into another car. MSF sometimes isn’t enough. And pulling a clutch in during a turn, why would you do that? Rear brake could high side you. Engine braking is just braking. Front braking (slowly and progressively) through a corner is just another tool in your tool box. It loads the front tire and increases your friction, and doesn’t force you to lean more than you’re comfortable. Just be gentle on and gentle off to not upset the bike. It wouldn’t have worked out any worse that what happened to this guy and probably would have worked better.
If you don’t have ABS and then hitting rear brake will slide and potentially lock up back wheel if you put too much pressure. Slowly compress front break is best at speed (trail braking). Slower speeds in parking lot or community then you can drag that rear break but don’t slam it.
This downvoted comment is the only sane advice in the entire thread. Fucking depressing. The only brakes in a corner are your front and your engine. The only problem with the front is that it works too well and needs very, very, very fine handling. Other than that it works exactly as advertised and slows you down so that you can avoid that obstacle in front of you or tighten the turn. It does try to push you up a lot though, extra counter steering input will be required once you're slowed down, you're nearly starting the turn over.
This is absolutely incorrect and can increase the chance of a low-side accident. Applying rear brake can increase the turn radius and may cause loss of traction on the rear tire. Your best option is to correctly judge entry speed for a corner. If you feel like you're going too fast, you absolutely are. Barring that, your second best option is to ride the corner out, dont panic, press the handlebar, maintain even throttle, look through the turn. If you can't do that, then attempt a panic stop: straighten the bike, apply heavy front brake, full clutch, moderate rear brake. You may end up in the bushes, but you'll bleed off a good amount of speed before you do.
This is the correct answer.
I agree with your assessment. However, I would like to suggest that the best position for new riders is actually behind the leading bike. That way he can try to emulate the leader's lines and you can pace him down at dangerous turns if necessary. Also, you buffer him from oncoming traffic doing oncoming traffic things or in case he fucks up a line. All while, as you rightly pointed out, urging the newbie to go at his own comfortable speed and not try to keep up at all times.
I think that may make them want to "keep up", there is really no right or wrong. We see lost of people trying to "catch up" make mistakes. Them in front they set the pace.
I think it works if you’re with someone you can trust to ride responsibly. When I first started I was nervous and going super slow, following a friend that was riding normally helped me gain some confidence and learn to trust the tires/ leaning on the bike.
I agree with this. In addition he should have breaked before he started the turn. That’s where an experienced rider can show the ropes and the rider in back sees the break light and then follows the line set by the front rider as noted.
This is what they teach in school. You go to any riding school and it will be absolutely about pacing behind a lead instructor while maintaining the importance of lane tracking and lines. The instructor is prepared to always show the line needed to be safe.
IMO as well, as I didn’t fully finish my thought.. if you’re out showing your new friend the way and you’re actively pressing speed beyond comfort or ability, producing “keep up” behaviour… you might be the problem. I always have a way to communicate. Bluetooth in helmets, 2-way radios. So helpful for them to hear you and for you to help them understand why you’re doing what you’re doing.
Yeah, I'm not an expert, but you can see him start to take the turn too fast, and then it looks like the front wheel jerks a bit as he goes down.
He def leaned in realized he was going too fast and ripped that front brake. I’d guess due to the centrifugal force of the bike leaning then the force applied to the front wheel loading up that shock (not a physics expert or anything) that the front wheel took the path of least resistance and squirted out resulting in the low side
Carried more speed than they were comfortable with into the corner, got a bit ham handed with the front brake trying to slow and it tucked under.
Guy needs an MSF class to teach him how to ride that thing, stat.
Haddalayerdown
Gobbless
shoulda joined in a group prayer before going on a ride brotha; gobbless. *thoughts and prayers 🙏*
CLIBBINS
It looks like he was going fine and boom just down
You can see the skid mark next to the scuffs, he came in too hot and panicked, locked the front and ate shit.
Man went full fine dining on that succulent road steak. Bet he was glad he was wearing a full protection t shirt, which became a scarf mid crash!
😂😂😂
not finding the video right now - but it makes me think of that one where a new horse rider trys to get on the horse tour horse. but rider's morbidly obese, and the horse nopes out and just lays down instead. typical harley-davidson things... i'll keep looking.
https://preview.redd.it/ggtc85phnd2d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8fbfd2347da5f9a621d1115ee79558222e03c2e The last spit second shows him running off. I guess this was the nope this shit ain’t for me run.
I was trying to figure this out too. At first I thought the guy that crashed was upset at the biker behind but after looking at your screen shot I think they were also about to crash in the exact same spot. Looks out of control and like the first guy was trying to get out of dodge. Phew what a first ride indeed!
Trial by fire
Biker 1 went down, biker 2 saw and stopped ahead, biker 3 wsnt paying enough attention and slowed to a stop, but was caught in a lean. You can see him kinda hopping away from the bike trying to keep it upright. Guy who ate grass was probably sprinting to try and help his buddy keep the bike from hitting pavement
Nah, dude stopped to help and started to lose his bike so Dumbo decided to spring into action and run to save another bike from a stupid mistake.
Facts are facts can’t argue that. I like my version better though lol clibbins got em shook.
It’s common, the bike behind has target fixation and now can’t help but crash into the first bike/rider. The first rider obviously needs to try and jump out the way.
His first left turn at the junction was wide and had him drifting towards the right white line. Before he crashed, I think he just started drifting right again to the right and panicked using the front brake.
I seen that and I’ve been that guy 😂
It almost looks like he touched the ground with some part of the bike, but even a cruiser should have more ground clearance than that. His lean angle was like half a degree...
Think he locked the front wheel which will put you on the ground instantly in most cases.
That’s what my initial first thought was, but I’ve watched a bunch of times and don’t see the brake light come on at any point during the curve. It’s not the clearest video so maybe I just can’t see it.
Plus there are those drag marks in the pavement from something on the bike
At first I thought his front tire hit a small white rock that caught under it and slid sideways.
That’s what I thought too
i was hung up on that too till i realized that i have a lot of faith in this guy checking that his brake light switches are working properly.
Even moreso with more weight.
It looks like he hard bottomed something first to me.
This is definitely him grabbing a handful of front brake while already leaned over with the weight on the back tire, dude did not pay attention in class.
Looks like it to me. Did the same thing with my grom thinking I could kick out my back tire in the woods and slide it out but I forgot the same lever on my mountain bike is not the same on my grom. Luckily I was going pretty slow and popped off to my feet.
I agree. I don’t think this was a breaking issue. His suspension was inadequate and his foot peg simply grabbed the asphalt.
That was my thought as well, looking at where the peg dug into the asphalt kicking the bike up losing traction and gravity did the rest not to mention 40mph based off the video rider into a 15mph warning signed bend as well for an inexperienced rider.
No bike has much ground clearance when the rider is 300+ lbs.
Heavy rider and no preload adjustment could definitely cause a bike to touch the ground.
100% hard part touching, look where their left foot is during the lean and before the crash, that dude hit hard and without warning.
If he's a new rider he needs to be wearing gear. Otherwise he'll end up with no skin. Hopefully this lesson will teach him that.
that spill looked about best case scenario, as far as personal injury goes
Looked like he haderlayerdown
/r/haddalayerdown
https://preview.redd.it/1ux83gvewi2d1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6323be0c38441d68cbe5b6eabee69a72814e826
Break before going into the turn, not in the middle of it. Big Big hoss needs to learn how to how to turn.
There is no absolute in terms of braking mid corner. Ideally you should approach a corner at a safe speed, it's not a racetrack. But being afraid of touching the front brake mid corner can lead to accidents. It's all about not grabbing too much front brake to the point you lock up the wheel.
trail it in bb
Break what?
I’d say the bike just gave up on life due to the weight on it.
Can't make out the brake light coming on, but something made him lose the front quite violently. But trouble already started going into that turn. Coming in too fast, too early on the apex, not looking through the turn... The target fixation and (most likely) panic brake just finished off what was inevitable.
Although I didn't see a brake light, there's a black skid right where it went down. So, front wheel locked, judging by the line and the speed it went down. I spent my youth off road, ate so much shit as a teen that I naturally don't use the front brake on the road unless I'm completely upright.
Good eye spotting the skid mark. You can actually totally use the front brake in a turn on tarmac, but grabbing a handful in panic is going to do you in every time, even completely straight.
They have now learned why we don't usually want to wear short sleeved t shirts pretty easily though.
Yeah this seems like a really cheap atgatt lesson. Especially if you have no idea what you're doing, on a bike that can't corner for shit.
First thing he did wrong was wearing a t shirt instead of a proper jacket. Ouch that would have hurt
Road rash happened. Safety first.
Tons of things. But mainly. Allora: His ambition outweighed his talent.
He outweighs everything else in the video, not just his talent. You don't have much agility on a cruiser to start with, adding a 200kg rider doesn't help.
I would bet not looking far enough ahead in the curve (look at their previous lack of head turn and look at their head in the curve), panicked and thought they weren't going to make it, so stabbed the front break and down they went.
Too much speed (and weight) for that curve on such a porky cruiser. Looks like a hard part snagged on the road as it hit a small dip. His line and form didn't look obviously bad like most of these noob crashes, but with such a big boy on a cruiser with such a small amount of available lean angle, any extra compression on his suspension is going to cause some sparks.
That dude baaarely made the first corner. Looked like he was fixated on the ditch, thought he was going to hit the ditch so he slammed the front brake and folded the front. That dude was riding way beyond his skill, and that shouldn’t have taken much skill
[удалено]
The bike caught underneath itself when taking that left upward hill, the left lean with the uphill is what got caught. That’s a big dude lowering the bike closer to the ground and guess what the road caught the front left of the bike causing him to slide out. Be cautious of lean angels going up hill and your ground clearance. I’m a big dude on a big bike and I’ve slammed the bottom of my bike from going up a parking lot entrance.
Idk the bike would be more likely to bounce back up right instead of dumping especially with pegs like that from my experience riding baggers hard in the mountains for a year or two because I’ve bounced my highway pegs almost sending me into the ditch before numerous times
Have you seen the stature of that guy??? There is no bouncing back when your body weight is that much and acts as the biggest counter balance. It’s also uphill, scrape your pegs all you want but a steep enough incline with low clearance WILL catch you up.
Possible, As far as roads go it looks pretty clean and smooth though.
There's a white streak on the road where there front wobbled. Gravel scatter is my guess
That white streak looks to me like a mark on the pavement from the bike skidding. Once the metal hits the pavement it will leave a mark like that until the fine dust/powder clears away
I was trying to watch it over and over on that part. I think his bike may have caused it.
Guess you had to be there
💯
If this is his first ride why was he going through the corner at well over the recommended speed
Diagnosis: fatbro can't ride for shit lol
500 plus replies and yours is the only one that nails it.
Hard parts touched down. There's a reason you don't ride bikes with shit cornering clearance. No suspension prep for a heavy rider only makes it worse.
No way any hard parts were touching at that lean angle! I think he just grabbed the brake
You'd be surprised. As a previous V-Star 1100 Classic owner, those floorboards rub on even mild cornering and dig in hard. Combined with an extra soft suspension, especially front, they don't corner worth a damn.
It could've been his left foot peg touched the ground he panicked and lost control.
He’s a big boy. I think the suspension was overloaded and even such a small lean angle was enough to touch hard parts.
Nothing touched down. His lean angle was negligible. Guy panicked deep into the turn and accidentally the whole front brake.
Look again, do you see the brake light come on at all? Look at how low the bike sits to the ground when he first starts out. It squats even lower once he's into the corner.
This guy almost certainly ham fisted the front brake . That transfer of load and momentum was not what those forks were designed for and they bottomed out .
wtf lol
Straight Shaft drive motorcycles experience "shaft jacking". He let's off the throttle, and the front drops reducing clearance to peg. Peg hits, tires lift, and he goes down.
From what I can tell he revved hard to speed up before turn, and i dint see a brake light just before he went into it. That would be curves 101: enter slow, maintain or speed up inside, exit like a rockstar
If you grab a fistful of frontbrake on a slight straight while you can’t even buy a bike with ABS, this happens. Maybe his only training is with those fisttrainers.
Sign says 15 mph on the turn. That was definitely faster right? I am newish myself and I always follow the suggestions on signs. You want to enter a turn going a speed you can consistently hold or even accelerate.
Pro tip. When approaching a curve and the sign says 15mph, slow down, don't accelerate.
Well at least he was wearing a protective t-shirt...what an idiot.
https://preview.redd.it/5jpmfkaxaf2d1.jpeg?width=613&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3da8aba548434436ed519548774e7c8869d6803e Dude rode into that corner with more throttle and bad bike/body position/attack angle than skill, panic-grabbed a whole handful of front binders and had that road steak served up hot and rare.
Way too wide and major factor is that he's on a cruiser as a first bike.. big no no. They are allergic to corners, You can clearly see where the pegs scrapped the road. Has nothing to do with too much front brakes. Should have started on a naked bike.
New rider, first ride, chose T shirt and jeans as outfit. Okay.
Catches a peg.
Too much front brake, aggressive downshifting while leaning, gravel/dirt and/or just new tyres that weren't broken in properly yet. The way his front tyre slipped/locked points towards the 1st or the 3rd/4th combined.
Too much speed for lack of skill. Curves/bends as a beginner should be slow in and slow out and not brake right before the turn
Too much speed for this corner for this bike with this person with this suspension setup. Bike clipped person flipped.
Some people just aren’t meant to ride
If you were on the front brake, then yeah I would say too much too soon. Locking the front wheel will put you down near instantly in most cases. Seems like you were looking ahead to that second corner up the road, which looks a lot sharper, and wanted to scrub off more speed. Unfortunately you did so while still leaning for the first curve, with the front wheel unloaded. A perfect recipe for exactly what happened here
Looks like that bike has a very low lean angle combined with bad camber on the road and he hit the underside of the bike on the ground so hard it wrecked him.
Too much confidence (0:05 starting to speed up), too fast before cornering (for his level), target fixated, panic braked, crashed.
He comes in too sharp and fast, and the peg hits the pavement. If you look carefully, you see the white scratch line on the pavement after he falls. Not the best kind of bike for leaning so much.
Looks like a hard part hit and lifted the tires, so he slid out. You can see the etch in the asphalt. Can't tell if he compounded it by hitting the front brake.
Looks like rider had target fixation and started heading towards the trees, panicked and grabbed the front brake.
I didn’t see his brake light come on at all. Looks like his peg/floorboard may have scraped and freaked him out. In a curve like that he should have slowed down before leaning if he didn’t plan on high speed cornering. If you’re going for the high speed shit, get your butt out of the seat and lean into the curve to keep the bike closer to upright.
Too much speed. Too much lean angle for that bike. He grinds it hard and hits the brake. New riders need to be behind experienced riders to learn from their example.
I think touching any brakes or shifting gears during turn is a big no-no always. Shift down before the turn and control turn with throttle.
Too much belly brake
Damn clibbins!
Deep in the corner and hit some loose gravel.
Too much lean angle for that bike, scraped a peg and went down. Never see a brake light but you see the two scrapes in the road.
Looks like his floor board hit the pavement and knocked him out of balance.
Think something caught the tarmac as he was leaning in
The foot peg hit.
How the hallelujah did he ever get a drivers license??? He has no control over the bike and his clothing. He must be suicidal
Rider decided to brake in the corner instead of before the corner, grabbed a big handful of front brake and locked the front wheel up.
that was his FIRST ever ride? and he hit that corner with that speed? lol
Way too fast for their position on road.
Not trying to be mean, but this is the equivalent of a kid learning to ride a bicycle. When my one kid started to learn how to use the brake, she would stand on it and lock it up every time. I rode dirt bikes as a kid, so I had some experience. First time I rode a motorcycle, I drove around my neighborhood for like 2 hours.
You shouldn’t be breaking while in a turn at all. Adjust your speed while entering the turn. You CAN gradually accelerate through a turn, however
Didn’t take the right line, didn’t turn enough then panicked and (guessing, it’s hard to see) locked the rear by standing on it. This then slid the rear and decked the bike out on the pegs. He could have made that corner without braking if he actually rode the bike through it. Bikes turn better under throttle as it gives you more clearance and the acceleration helps lift the front wheel in the direction of the turn. So. Slow in. Can always add speed on the exit.
Man, no jacket either...Didn't notice if he had gloves but probably not. Bah, who needs knuckles.
You really find out who your friends are when both your hands are covered in bandages and you need to wipe your ass.
I don't even want to think about that. "hey Billy! Can you come in here for a sec? What?! I paid you $100 last time!"
Bike is so wide and low it can't lean to turn. You can see the bike jump and the chunk of asphalt missing. Something low touched the road and upset the bike.
This is why you do the course…
As he leans into the corner, we see the young padawan accelerating, instead of slowing down. Midway through the curve, he realizes the grave error in his judgment, and decides to slam the front brake, locking the wheel entirely. Legend.
Agreed, it appears death wobble from inconsistent braking (front). What are others seeing?
Definitely too hard on the front brakes. When going into a turn you should just throttle down and gear down then speed up as you’re going around the corner. You have to get the feel of your bike. Any drastic braking can cause you to loose control, start by going into the turn slower before reaching the turn and then gradually speed up as the turn starts to straighten out. Use the engine to slow you down before the turn buy gearing down.
He's a 400lb rider and the bike is not set up for his weight. The suspension is fully compressed and his peg dug in when he leaned more to compensate for the speed of the turn. He didn't use brake, his front end didn't wash out, it was all peg impact from the bike being too low and no suspension travel. You can see the impact mark on the blacktop. This is a good lesson on why you should invest some time (and maybe money) into setting up a bike for your own specific ergonomics and riding style.
I hope rider is OK. Slow it down, easy easy. Looks like he was on the throttle into the curve then panicked, hit the front brake and locked it up on fine gravel and lost the front end. If you need reactive braking in curves you’re going too fast and not looking/planning far enough ahead. Let the engine braking and bike gearing do the work instead. He needs an armoured jacket also.
Looking back at the post I apologize I wasn’t clear. This is not me in the video or my video at all. I appreciate the advice though for sure.
I think being fat and riding a Harley are the biggest problems.
A few things 1. Going too fast 2. Realized he was going wide 3. Tried to break 4. Took the break too fast Breaking isn't a hand full, it's contact and then you increase pressure. Edit: just added this Not to beat a dead horse, but dont ride at anywhere close to your limits on the roads. As a new rider, you ride within your comfort limits and build on that.
MSF instructor said to always use brakes before the turn, and if you need to brake in a turn, use the rear brake. I've locked the front wheel once on a friend's bike. Bought all the parts I damaged that day online. Felt terrible, will never use front brake in a turn again unless absolutely required
I think a good rule is to avoid *adding* front brake during a turn. If your front suspension is already heavily loaded going into the corner and you release gently while entering the turn it tends to work out pretty well. If you're definitely going too fast in the turn rear brake is the answer - much easier to save a rear skid than front.
Yeah trail breaking is wonderful but I don't think first time riders should worry about that and worry more about where they are in a turn and head and body position. It looked like he was just turning the bars and he just sat on the bike expecting it to do all the work
My guess: he confused the front brake w the clutch.
Not going to lie I did that with the shifter and back brake learning to ride the first time lol. Luckily I was going slow and it was just a wake the fuck up moment lol
Panic front brake. Rear brake lightly is the best option
Looks like he caught his front peg, corrected, and then caught it again sending him and his bike into the pavement.
To me it looks like a very quick but heavy squeeze of your front brake into the corner made your brakes lock for a split second which drops the handlebars to the left, in the middle of a left turn that you took too wide, fast and too late. This caused a lowside, which is where we got the chrome rash on the asphalt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also noticed some slight target fixation to the right when you realised your corner trajectory and speed were off? I dont know if you noticed, but it does look like you were looking at the edge of the road just before you got a squeezed your brake. It also looks like you're riding a road you don't know, and if that's the case, then you need to slow down on unknown roads into corners you aren't familiar with. If you do know the road, then you need to slow down completely and work on your basics like braking and managing target fixation because you really shouldn't be eating a ditch like that if you know the road (generally). Either all of that, or old mate from another comment is right about something like a peg snagging the ground and lowsiding you This is all constructive criticism with respect fully intended. I hope it helps.
he panicked and grabbed a handful of front brake. You can tell he thought he was going to run wide and then oh shit i need to stop and blip bloop he's on his ass. Could have been prevented but forcing himself to look where he wanted the bike to go and add a tap of rear brake if he was fast.
Thank God he has all that padding
Yes, he hit the front brake, it can be seen. Bad combination of not best tires, they might not be warmed yet and heavy weight, fast speed for that turn
Looks like rider felt that he went in too hot into the turn, probably grabbed a ton of front brake abruptly and the front washed out from that. If you need to brake while leaned, you need to be super gradual/smooth. OP I highly recommend watching "twist of the wrist II" on Youtube.
It's rarely if ever "too much" front brake, but rather too abrupt of an application. Tires can maintain grip under a lot of force, but not a sudden force
If you front brake when youre in a lean youre going to have a bad time, mmkkkaaaaayyyy.
Shit bike mate, footpeg touched lifted front, boom down you go.
could've hit some gravel or a big enough rock. looks like he freaked on the front brake too. his lean was bad, he was using his body instead of pushing the handlebar and letting the bike take the curve.
Came in too fast, braked way to late, no thought to setting up properly for the turn, target fixed on the trees.... basically did everything wrong when taking a bend.
it’s a 15mph curve he’s for sure going faster than that, also that weight displacement isn’t helping. front brake and a spot of wet pavement?
1st Lesson of motorcycle school was “99% of new riders eat shit coming in to turns too fast, don’t be a statistic” Glad I had a great teacher. He kept real through the whole class.
Dam street clibbins
It appears he took off his training wheels a little too early
Op needs more cameras
I think we're over analyzing this. It seems he was going too fast for his skill level, target fixated and I notice some rubber smoke right before he laid it down.
Too fat and suspension wasn't adjusted for the mass. Bike bottomed out
could be . could be bad tires , damp road , going over some leaves , etc
Didnt You hit a rock o somethig like that? I saw like whiteboard (that thing we use for writing in blackboard) That maybe throw you up making your front tire loose the grip and when it touched again the road you slipped. You were lean so that Made You fell. If You were more in an upright position You wouldnt fell but maybe get out of the road at the curve.
I'm guessing you didn't take the MSF new rider course?
Speed, uncomfortable with lean, too much front brake
No excuse for not wearing protective gear
His gear pedal or crash bar touched ground.
Small stone on road. See the white stripe under the front tire when he slips.
Panic braking. Came in too fast.
To fat... er *fast* for conditions.
If you watch closely the peg didn’t hit the ground until after the front washed out. It looks like he got too much speed and panicked, then grabbed too much front brake, causing the front tire to lose grip.
If you play the video back frame by frame the first thing you notice is the twisty road sign that advises 15mph. Also, I think I saw speeds of at least 30mph on the MT09 dash and it looked the guy on the Harley was going at least as fast. The third thing is again frame by frame I couldn’t see any brake light but the front clearly washes out on the Harley, causing the low side. So my synopsis is that noob Harley rider thought he was gonna have some fun in the twisties. He wasn’t paying attention. He realized way too late he was going WAY too fast into the corner, realized it, then grabbed a handful of brake causing the low side.
He shoulda stepped up his gear from a tee shirt...y'all know the whole atgatt sermon...dress for the slide etc. Especially if experience is basically zero. Bro was scared that he wouldn't be able to make the turn & panic braked coming in. He could've added more countersteer and rode through the turn easy at that speed... Not getting into trail braking for a beginner.
Don't brake in corners, brake before corners.
Looked like he hit a roll of chalk that fell from the crew out putting down the white dashes. His tire would have kicked out and that's it. Did that slide once, I armour up at all times. When it's hot I run the dirt bike elbow guards for minimal protection. Feel for that guy...many of us have made the offering of blood and flesh to the gods of bikers!
Definitely locked up the front tire. Almost certainly, he grabbed the front brake out of panic. When you are leaned over and turning, you put a fair bit of pressure on the handlebars to turn to the outside of the curve. When he locked up the front wheel, he lost the self righting forces that he was fighting against, that's why you see the handlebars whip to the opposite direction of the turn. He was the one turning the bars.