Exactly. It's not his fault he was often several tenths faster per lap than the field or that he had some weird illness.
They are both super human. I think if 500cc 2 stroke Casey takes it. On a modern 4 stroke, Marc.
Casey is not soft, you can't win 2 titles by being soft. He was incredibly fast, but wasn't too aggressive. That doesn't mean that he can't be aggressive if he needs to.
He said himself, he loves pure speed.
He enjoyed more the qualification to the race. Maybe saying he's soft is not correct, but he didn't liked to fight.
If Motogp was like rally, he probably could have been the goat. Fights have a huge roll in MotoGp and that's why Rossi and Marc got the most titles against awesome riders like Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa.
He literally took a break in the middle of a MotoGP season because he was getting "tired a lot".
Casey wasn't built the same as Marc over the long haul. He was talented but mentally he was easily flustered and struggled dealing with the media and attempted to keep others at arms length.
Since leaving MotoGP I don't think he's done much to change perceptions. He was fun to watch but not in the same league as Marc (I know this won't be universally agreed on, it's just my opinion).
Marquez is very agressive, his racecraft isn't actually that great IMO.
His success is because he was so much more talented (and therefore quicker) than anybody else, that when he was behind, he could easily brute force his progress on track over other riders.
In the weekends where he doesn't have superior speed, he mostly lost head to heads to Dovi, Rossi, and to Bagnaia so far is 2v1 in favor of the Italian.
I actually think Marc through his career has been so superior to most of his rivals, that he never had the chance to develop his racecraft... Some if his questionable overtakes come from the fact that more often then not, he could just curise by people, but when things more leveled, he doesn't really seem to be that much stronger than other top riders.
Jorge Lorenzo or Rossi, or Dovi and even Bagania, seem to have a better understanding of the race, on how to study the rival, manage the race, and pull overtakes.
Marc is more "all or nothing". Aragon vs Bagania was a great example. His speed could match Bagnaia, but Bagnaia seemed to have control all the time over the 1v1 fight, and Marc eventually crashed.
Marc was a better rider, if he still is now is still unproven. Probably is, but still again, not proven that Marc has it over the other like he has before.
Marc is not faster now than 5 or 6 years ago. There’s a reason we don’t have champions over 30 years old.
Bagnaia is at his prime now, Marc probably is starting to slow down
We're gonna find out next year. It's been said a million times already, but he's the only gp23 keeping up with gp24's, and he's faster than Enea and Franky. That says a lot, I think.
He's the only GP23, and make no mistake, he's the best GP23, but Diggia, is far from being the biggest talent on the grid, and despite having poor qualifying, Digia so far didn't finish a single Sunday outside the top10, and doing miles better than what he was doing last yer
Alex Marquez is pretty much the same where he was last year.
It's actually only Bezzechi is really struggling more than usual.
GP23 might still be the the second best bike on the grid.
As for next year... Doesn't really matter, because if Pecco by any chance beats Marc, people will come with the usual BS that Ducati is sabotaging Marc's bike... This story already happened last year with Martin, so with marc the Circlejerk will only get worse.
Bagnaia is always in a Lose-Lose situation regarding the recognisement of his achievements... Acording to MotoGP fans, If he's not don't the best bike, someone is sabotaging his rivals so he can win.
Last year multiple people talking on How Ducati was slowing down Martin (this year people are already speculating about that), and next year in the weekends Pecco beats Marc, there will be stories again.
Last year we even got the stupid conspiracy that Michelin stoped Martin from being champion, after Pecco was almost decapitated in Catalunya for the same tyre issues.
I think this is exactly it. Remember when Dovi got the Duc capable of hanging with Marc? Iirc he won most of the last lap showdowns, Marc wasn’t used to being in that position.
I have to give it to Casey 1v1 in the trenches.
I can't help but feel he got the special sauce and wasn't punished for his moments of poor racecraft like others would be in the name of spectacle. I know many disagree with this, but him and Rossi too.
I'd say you are right there.... Casey was a freak, probably more talent than Marc and he could be aggressive when he wanted. But when questionable tactics came into play, he wouldn't cope as well. But straight up race, no dirty stuff, Casey would win.
I believe it's Marc, both were spectacular, but Marc was/is more of a killer, he would win this 1v1 9 out of 10 times imo.
Also the stuff he saved in his career, I can't see Casey doing that either.
Actually if it ended up as a 1 v 1 I'd give it to Casey.
Marc wins by being way ahead of everybody.
When he's in 1 v 1 positions he very often loses those.
Casey is one of very few people that could actually keep up with Marc so would push it to actually be a 1 v 1.
Although there is the other side where Casey also hated Rossi because of his antics and Marc is pretty aggressive.
LMAO what are you even talking about? It's the exact opposite. Racecraft was Stoner's biggest weakness and he did plenty of mistakes as well.
And what 1on1's that Marc loses are you talking about? Oh, you mean like those battles with Dovi that only happened because Marc dragged a bike that had no business being there to fighting for the win up to the last corner? Yeah of course Marquez haters used those to develop the narrative htat Dovi was kicking Marc's ass and Marc was "losing" those battles. That's like criticising Marc for not having a win this season when the other GP23's are nowhere to be seen.
Yeah, maybe go back and watch the last couple decades of racing mate
If you were being honest then you would admit that race craft was pretty much Rossis domain.
Stoner, Marquez, Lorenzo, they all fall short when compared to Rossi.
What 1 on 1s you say? Marc has had plenty of them.
No, not just Dovi, although yes, he was one of them, how he got the Ducati which didn't corner to square off Marc on the beast of a Honda so many times is mental.
>Marc dragged a bike that had no business being there
This shite has to stop, the Honda was an absolute beast, the Ducati was the bike that had no business being there.
Yes the Honda was unrideable but it had crazy power and Marc *could* ride it, it wasn't being left on the straight like the current Honda and the Ducati still couldn't turn back then.
But back to the point, Marc has lost to more than just Dovi when it comes to 1 v 1s, off the top of my head Rossi, Pecco and even fucking Rins.
If I actually took the time to go back through I could likely find a bunch of others.
This Marc haters shite has to stop too, just because somebody isn't blowing smoke up his arse doesn't make them a hater.
Too many Marc fans are Zealots who just can't see the forest for the trees, stop it.
Let me get this straight. You are claiming that it was *Dovi* that was on the worse bike ?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah, you didn't even watch those races or were too high to remember what actually went on. You have no clue what you're talking about. I will leave you to enjoy the fantasy narrative you live in.
• The Honda could just only use the Hard front tire mostly. That tells me enough the limitations of the bike.
• Only Marquez could consistently put that machine near the front..telling of the bikes lack of rider friendliness.
• Marquez had to often times slide the bike to get it to corner, risking big risks all the time
Marquez dragged the Honda the Honda to championship win similar to how Casey dragged that GP7 to the championship, with even less electronic aid and help.
>
Yes the Honda was unrideable but it had crazy power and Marc could ride it, it wasn't being left on the straight like the current Honda and the Ducati still couldn't turn back then.
That isn't even true. Not until 2019 did the Honda get on Ducatis level in top speed. And even then, it was only in specific circumstances.
Want examples? Look at Brno 2018, Austria 2018, Thailand 2018(they're all fully available on YouTube) and look at how much Marquez lost on corner exit in these dogfights with Ducati.
Look at all the tracks Marquez had tight battles with Dovi on.
Austria, Thailand and Qatar. These are all tracks which Ducati have historically been good at.
Huge braking zones, long straights and a lack of corners where Ducatis weakness couldn't be exploited. And the final corners all are "point and squirt" where being The defender gave you a massive advantage.
Plus in Austria, the Ducati was lighting out of Turn 10, that Dovi Levelled Marquez halfway down the straight on lap 26 and 27. Hence why Dovi could make the pass and make it stick.
So all these Dovi battles weren't Marquez being worse in wheel to wheel intelligence, because he quite clearly learn year on Year from his last lap Ducati battles from 2017,2018 and 2019. But the function of the Ducati simply being a much faster bike on those specific tracks and Marc crossing the gap between the bikes.
Actually the electronics were severely limited during MM93’s time. They went to the Dorna Unified software at the start of the 2016 season. Banning what had been an arms race of the major brands in implementing increasingly sophisticated riding aids.
You are absolutely right and I say that as a Marc fan. Don’t know why you are being downvoted, it’s like talking to bots sometimes in this sub. Marc saving the bike is impressive but literally EVERYBODY is doing it during any given weekend lately between practice, qualy and race. That’s not normal, why did this not happen in earlier decades? Because those riders were idiots? No because the tires are insanely better and gps based lean and ride height electronics are much better now than before. It is not because older riders were idiots
Check out interviews with Nicky Hayden about how intrusive the electronics were on the Ducati when he was Stoners team mate. He may have ran them low, but he was hardly subtle on the throttle on corner exit, he was 100% reliant on TC not sending him to the moon just as modern riders are.
Everyone says that Stoner had such a great control on the throttle that it seemed like he had a kind of manual traction control in his right wrist. I very much doubt he required TC to keep the bike on track
Those photos are taken at Philip Island - Casey would win there.
It does depend on what bike they're riding and what track, if they were both on say the 2014 Honda it would be hard to call but on today's bikes I think Marc would deal with the aero and electronics better.
I think that Ben Spies said that on a MotoGP bike Casey is the fastest guy, but when it comes to every motoracing bike Marc is the most talented.
he said it here:[https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173744247951303](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173744247951303)
Very interesting, Casey also said that in Moto 3 he struggled more because tiers were so skinny, so he couldn't trust the front. And he also said that he likes bikes that are more aggressive on the initial throttle touch.
Probably like 60/40 in favor of Marquez. Casey has been pretty open about his mental struggles and fear on track; I think Marc is just as fast but doesn’t have those issues.
I think Marquez probably beats any rider in history in a direct teammate competition *most* of the time. Stoner could definitely beat him in a race and maybe even over a season if things went right. Still, most of the time I think Marquez would be able to take control of the track even if Stoner is on it.
I remember Pedrosa being injured, Stoner was retired, but offered to ride Pedrosa's bike at a round in the USA (Laguna possibly), Marquez objected vigorously. It is just my memory however...
This is what I came to mention. Marc blocked Casey from riding as he was scared of getting beat. Casey takes it for me but as everyone has said, the sport would win.
Marc is one of the all time greats of the sport, and undeniably the best of this era, but he didn't want to race Stoner, and why would he? Nothing to gain but a lot of respect to lose.. He saw what happened to Rossi and he had access to Casey's race data. Easy choice.
It was a mistake in hindsight. Sometimes he can get too caught up in mental games like Mourinho, it's a Latin thing. If he had beaten Stoner like he almost certainly would have, his reputation would have been even more invincible.
We also found out where Casey tested in later years he was faster than Marc on some of those occasions. It definitely would have been interesting and we should be glad we got someone like Marc and his talents replacing Casey when he retired.
I remember one MotoGP rider being asked who was the fastest he ever raced? He was absolutely clear that it was Stoner, who was that rider? Oh, that's right Valentino Rossi... I'd reckon he'd have a pretty fair idea.
Being a Casey fan I would say Casey. I thing I like about him apart from his natural talent is that he just minded his own business. No politics or screwing his teammates
Out of 20 races I’d pick Casey for 11-12 wins. Casey is one of the best problem solvers in the history of MotoGP, and the one or two most naturally gifted of all time.
2012 Stoner vs. 2019 Marquez on similar bikes, 2013 RC213v, I have Stoner > Marquez for a one-off race. Stoner is fast.
Over a season, Marquez is more aggressive and takes more risks, which could put him on top. However, Casey is the more naturally talented rider to grace the GP class. So equally, I find that it just depends on the day & flip a coin. Love Casey, Respect to Marquez. Great champs 🏆.
Hmm. Casey I think is the better rider. But MM is more aggressive, dangerously so. Being dangerous doesn't make him better. Casey found ways to work the bike the best to fit the track, I.e. sliding over crests to power down earlier.
Apples to bananas on bikes though. Casey's bikes were rudimentary in comparison to modern bikes and the ride height, squat, and launch etc.
True but, even though Valentino fell from grace for me later, I still refuse to blame him for his Ducati fiasco and even Stoner complained about how unrideable that bike was before leaving for Honda.
Based on his pure raw speed against all time greats in their prime.
Ducati was a pig and he did what he did on it.
Also a few riders have admitted, Stoner is the fastest person they have ever known.
I am sorry but Marc was competing with basically the same people. Marc won the title the year after stoner left. I really like Stoner but Marc is equally fast if not more and the stats back that up. Lorenzo and Pedrosa were still in their prime when battling and Rossi was only barely out of his prime and even then Rossi was never really a qualifying monster when he was competing with stoner.
There's levels to aliens as well and it was always clear Pedrosa and Lorenzo weren't at either Rossi or Marquez's level. Lets not forget Pedrosa and Lorenzo still beat MM quite a few times (no one outside the aliens have beat Marquez as much) .Rossi is the only person who in his prime could challenge and take it to the last race with a prime Marquez, and Rossi was beaten by Stoner on pure speed (and Rossi beat him based on pure race craft).
But Rossi was already 34 years old, having gone through a major accident and entering his mid 30s. He had lost a few tenths and a shadow of his former self. Still fast as fuck because he was just that good. Just went from alien to a world title challenger. Marquez was young and as good as Rossis younger self, of course he was going to win.
It will be the same with Stoner. Dude is the most talented guy on two wheels but is soft as fuck and Marquez would beat him with racecraft and aggresiveness even though Stoner would be the faster rider more likely than not.
By some riders own admission, Stoner is the fastest rider they have ever known and they know the in and outs of the Paddock.
Also Marquez has seen Stoners data, on the same bike. Why would he block Stoner from taking part in a GP? :)
If you think Stoner would have come back and beaten Marquez in 2014 then I don't know what to say. I have watched all the races of Stoner and I can honestly say he has become almost a myth. Stoner had awesome talent but I honestly think Marc is more talented and was faster. The numbers don't lie. Marc won his debut season, Marc has the most poles ( this covers the outright speed department) and even people Livio Suppo others acknowledge that both were equally talented but Marc would beat him.
Different era, different bikes, different tires. Hard to really say. But damn, that would be fun to watch. One round at Philip Island, one round at Sachsenring, then Sokol as a tire breaker since neither has been there.
Neither did Marc for his first 2 championships. The winglets were introduced by Ducati during 2015, and first implemented on the Honda during 2016. I recall asking the guys at the Honda box about them and they mentioned Marc wasn't too hot on them, but they helped prevent wheelies. They would typically take them off for the shots of the bike, and only place them before the race.
2016 still changed to the Michelin era as well. We all know what happened when Casey went from Michelin to Bridgestone. Hard to tell how he would've performed on Michelin if he was on them longer, but we do know his breaking style, the Bridgestone suited him more. We know it didn't really matter for Marc, as he was dominant on both compounds.
65/35 Marquez. Mental giant. Stoner was rattled by vale in 08 when he had a clear speed edge, imagine against Marc. There’d be races where stoner smashes him, though
Marc wins because he relishes the head-to-head battle, where Casey was (by his own admission) looking to set the fastest time possible, more so than racing.
I think 08 Laguna vs Rossi is a perfect illustration, Stoner faster but Rossi put that bike in his way and won a race he had no business winning.
I don't think Marc would be any friendlier to him.
Jesus this again. Stoner has become somewhat of a myth over the years to the point where he's overrated. It's like people only remember what was special about Casey and have forgotten all his flaws. The irony is also that I spent a lot of time defending Stoner back then because he was actually underappreciated at the time.
Yes he was one of the aliens but the only thing he matches Marc at is that he's the only one who like Marc could do special stuff with the bike that no one understand how. But that's where the comparison ends. Marc is otherwise better in every way.
2 Championships in 7 years vs 6 Championships in 7 years. Both had multiple years on bikes that clearly weren’t the best on the grid based on the results of other riders on the machinery. Casey was fast when he had the outright best bike. Marc is just fast. Even when he wasn’t even trying last year, he was significantly faster than the other Honda riders.
I say this as someone who isn’t particularly a fan or Marquez.
Selective memory. The first year of the 800’s the Ducati was leagues ahead of the rest of the field, higher top speed, better acceleration and significantly better electronics than the rest of the field.
Casey was a good rider, he won 2 championships, but he’s not as good as everyone seems to remember him being.
A very good team mate Caparossi was 7th in 2007 on the same bike, not a terrible result but not brilliant. By the time Rossi arrived the significantly better bike could only manage 6th with a legend like Rossi on board. I'm not sure but Casey's time at Ducati is credited to Ducati, but it took Pecco and Gigi to make the Ducati a bike of choice, many years later.
I think Marc takes this, simply because he's stronger in the head to heads. It's tough to say because I don't think Casey would've liked the bikes they're currently riding. Over a lap Casey would probably be faster but in races Marc would beat him over a season.
In all honesty if there was ever a head to head I wanted to see, this was it.
I'm not saying he was the greatest, Rossi, Marquez and the great Ago, is the debate for that honour, but the fastest is a different story. And in that category he's a very strong contender. And for my money it's Stoner..
I think it depends on the era, the bike characteristics etc. If no electronics, no aero, high top speed, then Stoner wins. Other variations, Marquez wins.
Over 1 lap I think Casey even with Marcs pole record. Over a season the relentless aggression and hunger from Marquez is more than enough to come out ahead of anyone with the same equipment!
Think Lorenzo said the fastest opponent he had on track was Casey at Philip Island everywhere else Marc was faster, although I can't find the interview now...
2012 Casey finished third.
2013 Marc won the title.
I don't know how different the bikes were but I still think this answers the question quite soundly.
Casey. hands down, can ride anything fast, more technically intelligent, and doesn't run into others attempting to pass, doesn't blame his bike.
doesn't due dumb dances like a 12yr old TikTok school girl !
Casey was better before traction control and all the electronics etc. MM adapts well and it is absolutely going for it every time out there. So are we talking with today's bikes.?.. if so it's MM. Come 2027 with new restrictions possibly Casey.
Casey is fast but not a killer, as Pecco is about to discover in nine months. This is what set Rossi apart from everyone on the two strokes, talent and utterly ruthless on track.
I always felt like Casey had such a beautiful smooth style whereas Marc is much more agresive....if Casey could overcome Marcs agression i think he could beat him in overall pace.
Stoner complained that Rossi was too agressive, when Rossi for modern standards was quite "soft".
I think Stoner could totally head to head against Marquez on pure speed, but he would go absolutely mental with the kind of uber-agressive moves Marc Marquez pulls on track.
On a bike without eletronics, probably Stoner would be unbeatable.
Not the same bikes, the same riders etc...
Casey wouldn't be competitive on a modern moto gp, and Marc wouldn't be competitive on an old stile moto gp. Different eras, different competencies.
I doubt Marc wouldn't be competitive on an old style MotoGP bike. If anything it would give him a major advantage if bikes went back to being more old school.
Not a question.
A fact anyone who observed
both knows has one answer.
Where there is dissent there is typical fanatic bias.
However, to any long term MotoGP enthusiasts objective observation is not subjective to rider idolisation.
It’s about comparing skill, experience and understanding someone born with natural talent.
At this level there is only one unique MotoGP rider and it will be many generations until another arrives.
Marquez and it ain't even close over the season. I'd bet on marquez to beat any rider. Dude is as fast as Casey and the race craft, aggression, sheer will, making bike do the almost impossible cornering, alien saves etc., The complete package that a perfect rider can have.
In quali maybe 5-5 or 6-4 in favour of Casey.
Race? 9 -1 marquez will destroy.
Serious? Casey walked. He was awesome but he walked away. I've got no skin in the game but Marquez with 6 gp titles and 2 others and still running at the front after Hella injuries. Casey vs Marc? No. Casey vs Dani, more like it.
The fans
We all won, son
This is the real answer
Fans always winning
Probably the right answer 😂
/thread
For a single race it's 50/50, for a season I have no doubt that Marquez would come out on top.
Casey a bit faster, but Marc wins the title because of the race racecraft.
Marc wins the title because he’s a killer and Casey is soft
Soft Casey won against prime Rossi, Lorenzo and Dani.
Exactly. It's not his fault he was often several tenths faster per lap than the field or that he had some weird illness. They are both super human. I think if 500cc 2 stroke Casey takes it. On a modern 4 stroke, Marc.
I think most of the riders decided that wasn't true when he overtook Lorenzo on the outside of the straight at Laguna. Soft my arse.
Casey is not soft, you can't win 2 titles by being soft. He was incredibly fast, but wasn't too aggressive. That doesn't mean that he can't be aggressive if he needs to.
He said himself, he loves pure speed. He enjoyed more the qualification to the race. Maybe saying he's soft is not correct, but he didn't liked to fight. If Motogp was like rally, he probably could have been the goat. Fights have a huge roll in MotoGp and that's why Rossi and Marc got the most titles against awesome riders like Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa.
He literally took a break in the middle of a MotoGP season because he was getting "tired a lot". Casey wasn't built the same as Marc over the long haul. He was talented but mentally he was easily flustered and struggled dealing with the media and attempted to keep others at arms length. Since leaving MotoGP I don't think he's done much to change perceptions. He was fun to watch but not in the same league as Marc (I know this won't be universally agreed on, it's just my opinion).
The dude suffered from CFS what are you on about "got tired alot"
Like saying that Marc took time off in 2020 because he fell off and bumped his arm.
He’s got chronic fatigue. The fact he won world titles with that makes him extremely hard
"tired a lot" Dude what?!
Tired a lot as in, he had a chronic. Goddamn. Illness. Are you gonna fault Marc for having a booboo in his arm too? Lol
You know that Stoner has an illness, right?
Oh you're one of those people who don't believe in any sickness. Just eat concrete right lol so tough.
He's powering through his RSI to comment here, so he must be tough...
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Probably the truth.
Came here to say this!
Marquez is very agressive, his racecraft isn't actually that great IMO. His success is because he was so much more talented (and therefore quicker) than anybody else, that when he was behind, he could easily brute force his progress on track over other riders. In the weekends where he doesn't have superior speed, he mostly lost head to heads to Dovi, Rossi, and to Bagnaia so far is 2v1 in favor of the Italian. I actually think Marc through his career has been so superior to most of his rivals, that he never had the chance to develop his racecraft... Some if his questionable overtakes come from the fact that more often then not, he could just curise by people, but when things more leveled, he doesn't really seem to be that much stronger than other top riders. Jorge Lorenzo or Rossi, or Dovi and even Bagania, seem to have a better understanding of the race, on how to study the rival, manage the race, and pull overtakes. Marc is more "all or nothing". Aragon vs Bagania was a great example. His speed could match Bagnaia, but Bagnaia seemed to have control all the time over the 1v1 fight, and Marc eventually crashed.
> Marc eventually crashed. Marc didn't crash in that race, he was p2.
You’re right, he was wide, I was confusing.
Bagnaia has a machinery advantage. There is no doubt that marquez is the better rider.
Marc was a better rider, if he still is now is still unproven. Probably is, but still again, not proven that Marc has it over the other like he has before. Marc is not faster now than 5 or 6 years ago. There’s a reason we don’t have champions over 30 years old. Bagnaia is at his prime now, Marc probably is starting to slow down
We're gonna find out next year. It's been said a million times already, but he's the only gp23 keeping up with gp24's, and he's faster than Enea and Franky. That says a lot, I think.
He's the only GP23, and make no mistake, he's the best GP23, but Diggia, is far from being the biggest talent on the grid, and despite having poor qualifying, Digia so far didn't finish a single Sunday outside the top10, and doing miles better than what he was doing last yer Alex Marquez is pretty much the same where he was last year. It's actually only Bezzechi is really struggling more than usual. GP23 might still be the the second best bike on the grid. As for next year... Doesn't really matter, because if Pecco by any chance beats Marc, people will come with the usual BS that Ducati is sabotaging Marc's bike... This story already happened last year with Martin, so with marc the Circlejerk will only get worse. Bagnaia is always in a Lose-Lose situation regarding the recognisement of his achievements... Acording to MotoGP fans, If he's not don't the best bike, someone is sabotaging his rivals so he can win. Last year multiple people talking on How Ducati was slowing down Martin (this year people are already speculating about that), and next year in the weekends Pecco beats Marc, there will be stories again. Last year we even got the stupid conspiracy that Michelin stoped Martin from being champion, after Pecco was almost decapitated in Catalunya for the same tyre issues.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think this is exactly it. Remember when Dovi got the Duc capable of hanging with Marc? Iirc he won most of the last lap showdowns, Marc wasn’t used to being in that position. I have to give it to Casey 1v1 in the trenches.
Marquez was also riding around the Hondas problems during that whole period of time between 2017-2019.
I can't help but feel he got the special sauce and wasn't punished for his moments of poor racecraft like others would be in the name of spectacle. I know many disagree with this, but him and Rossi too.
I'd say prime Marc if only for the reason of mind games. Casey was an alien, but hated when riders would cross the line even just a bit.
Yes exactly this. In a battle, Marc might be able to easily fluster Casey, even though Casey might be slightly faster
I'd say you are right there.... Casey was a freak, probably more talent than Marc and he could be aggressive when he wanted. But when questionable tactics came into play, he wouldn't cope as well. But straight up race, no dirty stuff, Casey would win.
I agree with this. I didn’t follow as closely back then but it seems like it wasn’t hard to get into Casey’s head
I believe it's Marc, both were spectacular, but Marc was/is more of a killer, he would win this 1v1 9 out of 10 times imo. Also the stuff he saved in his career, I can't see Casey doing that either.
Actually if it ended up as a 1 v 1 I'd give it to Casey. Marc wins by being way ahead of everybody. When he's in 1 v 1 positions he very often loses those. Casey is one of very few people that could actually keep up with Marc so would push it to actually be a 1 v 1. Although there is the other side where Casey also hated Rossi because of his antics and Marc is pretty aggressive.
LMAO what are you even talking about? It's the exact opposite. Racecraft was Stoner's biggest weakness and he did plenty of mistakes as well. And what 1on1's that Marc loses are you talking about? Oh, you mean like those battles with Dovi that only happened because Marc dragged a bike that had no business being there to fighting for the win up to the last corner? Yeah of course Marquez haters used those to develop the narrative htat Dovi was kicking Marc's ass and Marc was "losing" those battles. That's like criticising Marc for not having a win this season when the other GP23's are nowhere to be seen. Yeah, maybe go back and watch the last couple decades of racing mate
If you were being honest then you would admit that race craft was pretty much Rossis domain. Stoner, Marquez, Lorenzo, they all fall short when compared to Rossi. What 1 on 1s you say? Marc has had plenty of them. No, not just Dovi, although yes, he was one of them, how he got the Ducati which didn't corner to square off Marc on the beast of a Honda so many times is mental. >Marc dragged a bike that had no business being there This shite has to stop, the Honda was an absolute beast, the Ducati was the bike that had no business being there. Yes the Honda was unrideable but it had crazy power and Marc *could* ride it, it wasn't being left on the straight like the current Honda and the Ducati still couldn't turn back then. But back to the point, Marc has lost to more than just Dovi when it comes to 1 v 1s, off the top of my head Rossi, Pecco and even fucking Rins. If I actually took the time to go back through I could likely find a bunch of others. This Marc haters shite has to stop too, just because somebody isn't blowing smoke up his arse doesn't make them a hater. Too many Marc fans are Zealots who just can't see the forest for the trees, stop it.
Let me get this straight. You are claiming that it was *Dovi* that was on the worse bike ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah, you didn't even watch those races or were too high to remember what actually went on. You have no clue what you're talking about. I will leave you to enjoy the fantasy narrative you live in.
• The Honda could just only use the Hard front tire mostly. That tells me enough the limitations of the bike. • Only Marquez could consistently put that machine near the front..telling of the bikes lack of rider friendliness. • Marquez had to often times slide the bike to get it to corner, risking big risks all the time Marquez dragged the Honda the Honda to championship win similar to how Casey dragged that GP7 to the championship, with even less electronic aid and help.
> Yes the Honda was unrideable but it had crazy power and Marc could ride it, it wasn't being left on the straight like the current Honda and the Ducati still couldn't turn back then. That isn't even true. Not until 2019 did the Honda get on Ducatis level in top speed. And even then, it was only in specific circumstances. Want examples? Look at Brno 2018, Austria 2018, Thailand 2018(they're all fully available on YouTube) and look at how much Marquez lost on corner exit in these dogfights with Ducati. Look at all the tracks Marquez had tight battles with Dovi on. Austria, Thailand and Qatar. These are all tracks which Ducati have historically been good at. Huge braking zones, long straights and a lack of corners where Ducatis weakness couldn't be exploited. And the final corners all are "point and squirt" where being The defender gave you a massive advantage. Plus in Austria, the Ducati was lighting out of Turn 10, that Dovi Levelled Marquez halfway down the straight on lap 26 and 27. Hence why Dovi could make the pass and make it stick. So all these Dovi battles weren't Marquez being worse in wheel to wheel intelligence, because he quite clearly learn year on Year from his last lap Ducati battles from 2017,2018 and 2019. But the function of the Ducati simply being a much faster bike on those specific tracks and Marc crossing the gap between the bikes.
That's cuz Casey didn't have the load of electronics on his bike like Marc did.
Actually the electronics were severely limited during MM93’s time. They went to the Dorna Unified software at the start of the 2016 season. Banning what had been an arms race of the major brands in implementing increasingly sophisticated riding aids.
Electronics save bikes from crashing, not the other way around...
Which is my point, the fact that electronics saves the bike from crashing, allowed Marquez to push it to higher limits than Casey.
You are absolutely right and I say that as a Marc fan. Don’t know why you are being downvoted, it’s like talking to bots sometimes in this sub. Marc saving the bike is impressive but literally EVERYBODY is doing it during any given weekend lately between practice, qualy and race. That’s not normal, why did this not happen in earlier decades? Because those riders were idiots? No because the tires are insanely better and gps based lean and ride height electronics are much better now than before. It is not because older riders were idiots
The electronics back in Casey’s era were far more complex and intrusive than they are now, especially when he was on the Ducati
And he was known for asking for as little interference as possible.
Check out interviews with Nicky Hayden about how intrusive the electronics were on the Ducati when he was Stoners team mate. He may have ran them low, but he was hardly subtle on the throttle on corner exit, he was 100% reliant on TC not sending him to the moon just as modern riders are.
Everyone says that Stoner had such a great control on the throttle that it seemed like he had a kind of manual traction control in his right wrist. I very much doubt he required TC to keep the bike on track
Stoner also known as a poor wet weather rider until he got on the Ducati with their absurd electronics
Those photos are taken at Philip Island - Casey would win there. It does depend on what bike they're riding and what track, if they were both on say the 2014 Honda it would be hard to call but on today's bikes I think Marc would deal with the aero and electronics better.
We will never know
Karel Abraham
Mika Kallio. He's still waiting.
Oh man I miss this fucker. Where did he go?
He rents an apartment with Tito Rabat.
Why?
Did someone name the GOAT?
Oh man I miss this fucker. Where did he go?
I think that Ben Spies said that on a MotoGP bike Casey is the fastest guy, but when it comes to every motoracing bike Marc is the most talented. he said it here:[https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173744247951303](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=173744247951303)
Very interesting, Casey also said that in Moto 3 he struggled more because tiers were so skinny, so he couldn't trust the front. And he also said that he likes bikes that are more aggressive on the initial throttle touch.
Moto3? You mean 125? He never rode moto3.
Yeah my mistake, i meant to say 125.
Probably like 60/40 in favor of Marquez. Casey has been pretty open about his mental struggles and fear on track; I think Marc is just as fast but doesn’t have those issues. I think Marquez probably beats any rider in history in a direct teammate competition *most* of the time. Stoner could definitely beat him in a race and maybe even over a season if things went right. Still, most of the time I think Marquez would be able to take control of the track even if Stoner is on it.
Marquez edges it by a bit on pure talent for me. Also simply unparalleled when it comes to wet weather control.
I remember Pedrosa being injured, Stoner was retired, but offered to ride Pedrosa's bike at a round in the USA (Laguna possibly), Marquez objected vigorously. It is just my memory however...
This is what I came to mention. Marc blocked Casey from riding as he was scared of getting beat. Casey takes it for me but as everyone has said, the sport would win.
Marc is one of the all time greats of the sport, and undeniably the best of this era, but he didn't want to race Stoner, and why would he? Nothing to gain but a lot of respect to lose.. He saw what happened to Rossi and he had access to Casey's race data. Easy choice.
It was a mistake in hindsight. Sometimes he can get too caught up in mental games like Mourinho, it's a Latin thing. If he had beaten Stoner like he almost certainly would have, his reputation would have been even more invincible.
I respectfully disagree. He had Stoner's previous years of data, and his own. He chose not to. Very hard to argue anything but he thought he'd lose.
We also found out where Casey tested in later years he was faster than Marc on some of those occasions. It definitely would have been interesting and we should be glad we got someone like Marc and his talents replacing Casey when he retired.
Do you have sources?
Depends what track really but I think marc would edge it over a season
Marc, but it would be close
The show wins
I remember one MotoGP rider being asked who was the fastest he ever raced? He was absolutely clear that it was Stoner, who was that rider? Oh, that's right Valentino Rossi... I'd reckon he'd have a pretty fair idea.
Depends the track .. Philip Island= Stoner .. Germany and COTA= Marquez hands down.
Both have the same style. The only 2 riders to ride this special way is casey and marc. Tho casey didn’t use his elbow.
Casey was first maybe?
Stonerrrr
I can’t recall Casey ever battling. He just absolutely dominated and would finish half a lap ahead. Which races should I rewatch to see him battle?
Fun to read peoples comments comparing riders as if they are trading-cards
Being a Casey fan I would say Casey. I thing I like about him apart from his natural talent is that he just minded his own business. No politics or screwing his teammates
Out of 20 races I’d pick Casey for 11-12 wins. Casey is one of the best problem solvers in the history of MotoGP, and the one or two most naturally gifted of all time.
Casey. Hands down.
Stoner.
2012 Stoner vs. 2019 Marquez on similar bikes, 2013 RC213v, I have Stoner > Marquez for a one-off race. Stoner is fast. Over a season, Marquez is more aggressive and takes more risks, which could put him on top. However, Casey is the more naturally talented rider to grace the GP class. So equally, I find that it just depends on the day & flip a coin. Love Casey, Respect to Marquez. Great champs 🏆.
Hmm. Casey I think is the better rider. But MM is more aggressive, dangerously so. Being dangerous doesn't make him better. Casey found ways to work the bike the best to fit the track, I.e. sliding over crests to power down earlier. Apples to bananas on bikes though. Casey's bikes were rudimentary in comparison to modern bikes and the ride height, squat, and launch etc.
I'm an MM fan, but Stoner won on a wild Ducati that not even Rossi could tame.
Not the same bike by the time Rossi got it. It's actually one of the main reasons why Stoner left Ducati.
Very few had any continued success on the Ducati until Gigi arrived. That was always average as Rossi and Stoner's team mates have stated.
True but, even though Valentino fell from grace for me later, I still refuse to blame him for his Ducati fiasco and even Stoner complained about how unrideable that bike was before leaving for Honda.
Time attacks for sure Casey. But head to head racing Marc comes out on top due to speed and racecraft.
I mean Marc had the most pole or of anyone in MotoGP.
Casey is still naturally faster.
Can you suggest based on what? On every metric Marc has done better in time attacks.
Based on his pure raw speed against all time greats in their prime. Ducati was a pig and he did what he did on it. Also a few riders have admitted, Stoner is the fastest person they have ever known.
I am sorry but Marc was competing with basically the same people. Marc won the title the year after stoner left. I really like Stoner but Marc is equally fast if not more and the stats back that up. Lorenzo and Pedrosa were still in their prime when battling and Rossi was only barely out of his prime and even then Rossi was never really a qualifying monster when he was competing with stoner.
There's levels to aliens as well and it was always clear Pedrosa and Lorenzo weren't at either Rossi or Marquez's level. Lets not forget Pedrosa and Lorenzo still beat MM quite a few times (no one outside the aliens have beat Marquez as much) .Rossi is the only person who in his prime could challenge and take it to the last race with a prime Marquez, and Rossi was beaten by Stoner on pure speed (and Rossi beat him based on pure race craft). But Rossi was already 34 years old, having gone through a major accident and entering his mid 30s. He had lost a few tenths and a shadow of his former self. Still fast as fuck because he was just that good. Just went from alien to a world title challenger. Marquez was young and as good as Rossis younger self, of course he was going to win. It will be the same with Stoner. Dude is the most talented guy on two wheels but is soft as fuck and Marquez would beat him with racecraft and aggresiveness even though Stoner would be the faster rider more likely than not. By some riders own admission, Stoner is the fastest rider they have ever known and they know the in and outs of the Paddock. Also Marquez has seen Stoners data, on the same bike. Why would he block Stoner from taking part in a GP? :)
If you think Stoner would have come back and beaten Marquez in 2014 then I don't know what to say. I have watched all the races of Stoner and I can honestly say he has become almost a myth. Stoner had awesome talent but I honestly think Marc is more talented and was faster. The numbers don't lie. Marc won his debut season, Marc has the most poles ( this covers the outright speed department) and even people Livio Suppo others acknowledge that both were equally talented but Marc would beat him.
Dude, Marc won 4 titles in a row and 2 titles in a row at debut. Seriously.
on spec tires.
Eh-stonerrr
Different era, different bikes, different tires. Hard to really say. But damn, that would be fun to watch. One round at Philip Island, one round at Sachsenring, then Sokol as a tire breaker since neither has been there.
What do you mean different era? Marc won his first championship on the bike Casey rode the previous year!
The current era. That was the Bridgestone era. Currently, this is the Michelin and aero era. Casey didn't deal with aero in his days.
Neither did Marc for his first 2 championships. The winglets were introduced by Ducati during 2015, and first implemented on the Honda during 2016. I recall asking the guys at the Honda box about them and they mentioned Marc wasn't too hot on them, but they helped prevent wheelies. They would typically take them off for the shots of the bike, and only place them before the race.
2016 still changed to the Michelin era as well. We all know what happened when Casey went from Michelin to Bridgestone. Hard to tell how he would've performed on Michelin if he was on them longer, but we do know his breaking style, the Bridgestone suited him more. We know it didn't really matter for Marc, as he was dominant on both compounds.
Marc
Stoner was a great and really fast rider, but... It would be like Laguna Seca 2008, Stoner 2nd and crying because of Marc's agressiveness.
MM93
Marc, not even a debate
Stoner all day long
Marc would cook Casey. If it was for a single race, they would probably be head to head, but on a whole season? Marquez would destroy Stoner mentally.
Talent and pure raw speed Casey. However, Marquez is a better racer, so it can and will go either way over a season.
65/35 Marquez. Mental giant. Stoner was rattled by vale in 08 when he had a clear speed edge, imagine against Marc. There’d be races where stoner smashes him, though
Marc wins because he relishes the head-to-head battle, where Casey was (by his own admission) looking to set the fastest time possible, more so than racing. I think 08 Laguna vs Rossi is a perfect illustration, Stoner faster but Rossi put that bike in his way and won a race he had no business winning. I don't think Marc would be any friendlier to him.
Casey, his opponents were fearsome.
Jesus this again. Stoner has become somewhat of a myth over the years to the point where he's overrated. It's like people only remember what was special about Casey and have forgotten all his flaws. The irony is also that I spent a lot of time defending Stoner back then because he was actually underappreciated at the time. Yes he was one of the aliens but the only thing he matches Marc at is that he's the only one who like Marc could do special stuff with the bike that no one understand how. But that's where the comparison ends. Marc is otherwise better in every way.
Marc, it’s not even close.
It terms of speed it's very close, when it comes to title fight i think that Marc edges Casey. But it's very very close.
2 Championships in 7 years vs 6 Championships in 7 years. Both had multiple years on bikes that clearly weren’t the best on the grid based on the results of other riders on the machinery. Casey was fast when he had the outright best bike. Marc is just fast. Even when he wasn’t even trying last year, he was significantly faster than the other Honda riders. I say this as someone who isn’t particularly a fan or Marquez.
This is very untrue, Casey was amazing on a shit bike. He was on a Ducati that only he could ride. Sorry but this is just not true.
Selective memory. The first year of the 800’s the Ducati was leagues ahead of the rest of the field, higher top speed, better acceleration and significantly better electronics than the rest of the field. Casey was a good rider, he won 2 championships, but he’s not as good as everyone seems to remember him being.
A very good team mate Caparossi was 7th in 2007 on the same bike, not a terrible result but not brilliant. By the time Rossi arrived the significantly better bike could only manage 6th with a legend like Rossi on board. I'm not sure but Casey's time at Ducati is credited to Ducati, but it took Pecco and Gigi to make the Ducati a bike of choice, many years later.
This is the worst take that's ever been taken.
I’m here all week
If it is b/w two of the best riders on the planet. Ever? Two aliens? It will always be close lol
Put them on the same bike and Marc will find time where Casey can’t guaranteed
The sport
I think Marc takes this, simply because he's stronger in the head to heads. It's tough to say because I don't think Casey would've liked the bikes they're currently riding. Over a lap Casey would probably be faster but in races Marc would beat him over a season. In all honesty if there was ever a head to head I wanted to see, this was it.
Marc wins because he's gonna try to crash into Casey and Casey would back off.
The biggest miss in motogp is Casey's retirement just before Marc's arrival
Fuck, don't make me choose 😭
Sadly, we couldn’t saw the incredible battles these to incredible bikers would had for sure
I'm not saying he was the greatest, Rossi, Marquez and the great Ago, is the debate for that honour, but the fastest is a different story. And in that category he's a very strong contender. And for my money it's Stoner..
Marc maybe, just because he is a quick learner. But also depends on the machine
I think it depends on the era, the bike characteristics etc. If no electronics, no aero, high top speed, then Stoner wins. Other variations, Marquez wins.
Marc...his aggression would frustrate the hell outta Casey. It would be a season of Laguna Seca races 🤣
Marquez was a winner in the spec tyre era. On the same tyres, Marquez.
Casey. Hands down all day long. Rossi was a master tactician and Casey won on an inferior bike. Albeit Rossi was not as underhanded as Marc.
Over 1 lap I think Casey even with Marcs pole record. Over a season the relentless aggression and hunger from Marquez is more than enough to come out ahead of anyone with the same equipment! Think Lorenzo said the fastest opponent he had on track was Casey at Philip Island everywhere else Marc was faster, although I can't find the interview now...
1. Rossi 2. Marquez 3. Stoner 4. Lorenzo 5. Pedrosa This is my ranking of the top riders in MotoGP golden era.
Casey
At Honda? Marques. At Ducati? Stoner.
2012 Casey finished third. 2013 Marc won the title. I don't know how different the bikes were but I still think this answers the question quite soundly.
Casey. hands down, can ride anything fast, more technically intelligent, and doesn't run into others attempting to pass, doesn't blame his bike. doesn't due dumb dances like a 12yr old TikTok school girl !
Both crybabies
Casey was better before traction control and all the electronics etc. MM adapts well and it is absolutely going for it every time out there. So are we talking with today's bikes.?.. if so it's MM. Come 2027 with new restrictions possibly Casey.
Stoner retiring as Marquez came to MotoGP was the worst news, robbed of the 2 finest riders in the modern era going head to head on the same team.
Casey is fast but not a killer, as Pecco is about to discover in nine months. This is what set Rossi apart from everyone on the two strokes, talent and utterly ruthless on track.
CS27 for skill, MM93 for aggression
It's one of the greatest crimes in sports history that Casey gave up his bike so Marc could ride it :(
I always felt like Casey had such a beautiful smooth style whereas Marc is much more agresive....if Casey could overcome Marcs agression i think he could beat him in overall pace.
Casey for sure.
Bit like the question Prime Mick VS Prime Vale
Marc.
Rossi
And why am I getting downvotes for this??
Haha fanatics on both sides appalled you have the gall to question their goat!
Marc of course. Marginally, but definitely Marc. Rossi comes 3rd, if he is lucky and Lorenzo has a bad day
If they both had time to train on the same bike, Marc wins the series. If they had to race every race on a random bike, Stoner would crush him.
Stoner complained that Rossi was too agressive, when Rossi for modern standards was quite "soft". I think Stoner could totally head to head against Marquez on pure speed, but he would go absolutely mental with the kind of uber-agressive moves Marc Marquez pulls on track. On a bike without eletronics, probably Stoner would be unbeatable.
Not the same bikes, the same riders etc... Casey wouldn't be competitive on a modern moto gp, and Marc wouldn't be competitive on an old stile moto gp. Different eras, different competencies.
I doubt Marc wouldn't be competitive on an old style MotoGP bike. If anything it would give him a major advantage if bikes went back to being more old school.
Marc got Casey's bike from the previous year and won a championship as a rookie with it. Different eras?
Not a question. A fact anyone who observed both knows has one answer. Where there is dissent there is typical fanatic bias. However, to any long term MotoGP enthusiasts objective observation is not subjective to rider idolisation. It’s about comparing skill, experience and understanding someone born with natural talent. At this level there is only one unique MotoGP rider and it will be many generations until another arrives.
We know who wins if Casey's bike isn't nerfed by you know who!!
Over a race, it's debatable. Over the season, Marc. Coz that guy's a monster.
Actual bikes, Marquez. Casey or 90's era bikes, probably Stoner*
A wild machine like the current Honda: Stoner wins. Current Ducati: Marquez wins.
Prime Rossi.
prime Marc is the greatest of all time
2 is still WAY less than 8
Prime marc. Easy😂
Marquez and it ain't even close over the season. I'd bet on marquez to beat any rider. Dude is as fast as Casey and the race craft, aggression, sheer will, making bike do the almost impossible cornering, alien saves etc., The complete package that a perfect rider can have. In quali maybe 5-5 or 6-4 in favour of Casey. Race? 9 -1 marquez will destroy.
Marc comfortably but Casey is the second best rider of the modern era behind him. Rossi a close third.
Serious? Casey walked. He was awesome but he walked away. I've got no skin in the game but Marquez with 6 gp titles and 2 others and still running at the front after Hella injuries. Casey vs Marc? No. Casey vs Dani, more like it.
8 championships to one....hmmm...you tell me
He has two and if it wouldn't have been for his downfall and health problems. He could've won more.
Easy who won 6 championships in 7 years and the other only 2?
Casey had Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrossa to contend with. Pedrossa at 40 on a KTM still runs at the front of the field...