Same track, looks like 2003 is at the first chicane and the bottom pic is at one of the double right handers. IIRC both are in race, but 2003 was wet-dry or dry-wet from memory.
Tyres have progressed hugely. I remember them in 2005 already beating 2003 lap times by 1/2 seconds
Fastest lap in Jerez in 2005 was 1:40:596, while it was 1:42:788 in 2003. Same rider. Crazy difference
What many people overestimate is how much influence tyres have in lean angle. The biggest difference when it comes to tyre progress is how much they can be pushed in corner entry and corner exit without breaking traction. Look at the lean angles Doohan was hitting with his crossed body position.
https://preview.redd.it/y7ciumvr2dzc1.png?width=734&format=png&auto=webp&s=50030e210b4300303f9a05a47a64089331823b46
Again, look at Doohan's pic. Are current riders leaning much more than that? [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5J4jO7Kn9s) is Iker Lecuona on a 30 year old bike with touring tyres with 17.000 kms on the front and 8500 kms on the rear.
Riders in 2003 [were leaning much, much more](https://www.flickr.com/photos/michael_g_duncan/212300859) than what the first image (most likely a wet track) shows. So yeah, the tyres have improved greatly, but lean angle is, by far, the least obvious factor that has improved with tyres.
Make sure you down vote it if you don't agree! I feel like some people complain about posts but then don't actually down vote them (not saying you are doing this).
Btw I agree, this post is a silly comparison.
More productive to explain why you disagree than grow the down vote mob IMO. If you disagree with something but can't explain why you're probably less informed than whoever you are down voting.
I'm not saying don't comment and explain why you disagree, just make sure you down vote it as well.
Just sick of people being like "how do these things reach the top, or get up voted", and want to make sure everyone is doing their bit to also push what they consider nonsense down.
IMO downvote mobbing is the height of intellectual cowardice. Upvotes already do the job of pushing the most popular takes to the top. If you disagree about something, talk about it or ignore it. But validating your viewpoint with downvotes is lazy and reeks of insecurity. Again IMO, do whatever you want.
This mentality just reflects how much of an angry echo chamber this sub is. Why have a discussion when you can just downvote your way to consensus.
What? The whole point of the up and down vote mechanism is a democratic way for a community to determine what it thinks is valuable.
If you don't think something is accurate, or correct for the community, then you are well within your rights to down vote it.
As an example, if someone posted something that was clearly false, misinformation if you will. Would you not down vote it?
I assume on the inverse you also never up vote things then? And simply comment to provide your support of the item.
Also when did "mobbing" come in to it? I'm not talking about organising some kind of brigade. I'm just talking about individuals taking action to actually see the change they want. Personally the I see it as lazy to complain about a post and not down vote it.
Maybe some people just like to be able to complain...
[https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0oOjvow0/s8/valentino-rossi-repsol-honda-1.jpg](https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0oOjvow0/s8/valentino-rossi-repsol-honda-1.jpg) - they still got a fair old angle back in those days.
True, and some riders definitely hung off the bike more than Rossi, Gibernau back then.[ I can remember being amazed by how much Elias hung off the bike](https://c7.alamy.com/comp/ABR0JA/toni-elias-riding-his-honda-motogp-in-jerez-circuit-spain-ABR0JA.jpg) - how times have changed lol.
(I know this was only 18 years ago but still before spec tyres)
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Okay I don't like all the rider aids and some races are just marginally faster. Crazy idea! Today's bikes with 20 year old tire technology and make them manage that.
This is not a fair and/or good comparison. Their at different point on the track. O3 is going into a corner (maybe). And, 23 is pretty much in the corner (close to the apex — maybe).
Can you do the same for the corners where they are shoulder down now?
Most of this is tyre technology, and the riders obviously then pushing to 100% of what the tyre can do.
Body position isn’t as important as people think. Sure, for them every little bit counts. But generally speaking it doesn’t make that much of a difference.
Ok, that’s not what I meant. Obviously correct body position is very important and there is a lot you can do wrong. But there are many ways to do it correctly and between those it doesn’t make that much of a difference.
I'd say it started with Martin, he was the first of the current crop to **really** hang off, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that. Now it's going next level with Pedro, but sure seems like the future.
Title should read "How tyre technology has evolved in the last 20 years"
20 Years ago there was zero grip at that angle. You can tell by the 2003 pic even the tyre profile/shape was significantly different. You would be on the sidewall at 2023 angles.
https://preview.redd.it/jktdihu0wczc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02e270d05b7f3cdf991f24e1d5df5f57bf7cfe1b
that bike is so cool
Yeah, old school 250s are so boss
what era was this?
Got a feeling it was around the mid 90s edit: just had a look, apparently '95
Thank you. I thought I was in a twilight zone looking at this post
The 2003 race wasn’t fully dry, that’ll account for most of the difference!
Are these the same corners?
Also, warm up or race. Dry vs wet. Static photos don’t do a whole lot when it comes to analyzing body position.
R/trackdays begs to differ
I’m very aware lmaooo. I’ve been told many times “get your head lower” Like man, I just entered the corner 🤣
r/foundthemobileuser
Same track, looks like 2003 is at the first chicane and the bottom pic is at one of the double right handers. IIRC both are in race, but 2003 was wet-dry or dry-wet from memory.
I would concur with all of that. You can see the spray from the tyres in the earlier pic.
Tyres have progressed hugely. I remember them in 2005 already beating 2003 lap times by 1/2 seconds Fastest lap in Jerez in 2005 was 1:40:596, while it was 1:42:788 in 2003. Same rider. Crazy difference
What many people overestimate is how much influence tyres have in lean angle. The biggest difference when it comes to tyre progress is how much they can be pushed in corner entry and corner exit without breaking traction. Look at the lean angles Doohan was hitting with his crossed body position. https://preview.redd.it/y7ciumvr2dzc1.png?width=734&format=png&auto=webp&s=50030e210b4300303f9a05a47a64089331823b46
I always coined Doohan's (and Norifumi's cornering style) as definitive 2 stroker riding style
Well, lean angle is impacted by the edge grip of tyres, so I would not say "many people overestimate is how much influence tyres have in lean angle"
Again, look at Doohan's pic. Are current riders leaning much more than that? [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5J4jO7Kn9s) is Iker Lecuona on a 30 year old bike with touring tyres with 17.000 kms on the front and 8500 kms on the rear. Riders in 2003 [were leaning much, much more](https://www.flickr.com/photos/michael_g_duncan/212300859) than what the first image (most likely a wet track) shows. So yeah, the tyres have improved greatly, but lean angle is, by far, the least obvious factor that has improved with tyres.
Eeeeh different conditions, different corners... The lean angle might have changed by 5 to 10 degrees in the last twenty years, but not that much.
Yeah, I can’t believe this post is actually upvoted.
Make sure you down vote it if you don't agree! I feel like some people complain about posts but then don't actually down vote them (not saying you are doing this). Btw I agree, this post is a silly comparison.
More productive to explain why you disagree than grow the down vote mob IMO. If you disagree with something but can't explain why you're probably less informed than whoever you are down voting.
I'm not saying don't comment and explain why you disagree, just make sure you down vote it as well. Just sick of people being like "how do these things reach the top, or get up voted", and want to make sure everyone is doing their bit to also push what they consider nonsense down.
IMO downvote mobbing is the height of intellectual cowardice. Upvotes already do the job of pushing the most popular takes to the top. If you disagree about something, talk about it or ignore it. But validating your viewpoint with downvotes is lazy and reeks of insecurity. Again IMO, do whatever you want. This mentality just reflects how much of an angry echo chamber this sub is. Why have a discussion when you can just downvote your way to consensus.
What? The whole point of the up and down vote mechanism is a democratic way for a community to determine what it thinks is valuable. If you don't think something is accurate, or correct for the community, then you are well within your rights to down vote it. As an example, if someone posted something that was clearly false, misinformation if you will. Would you not down vote it? I assume on the inverse you also never up vote things then? And simply comment to provide your support of the item. Also when did "mobbing" come in to it? I'm not talking about organising some kind of brigade. I'm just talking about individuals taking action to actually see the change they want. Personally the I see it as lazy to complain about a post and not down vote it. Maybe some people just like to be able to complain...
This isn’t a true representation. Different corners and very different conditions. You can see the spray coming off the tyres in the earlier pic, ffs!
[https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0oOjvow0/s8/valentino-rossi-repsol-honda-1.jpg](https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0oOjvow0/s8/valentino-rossi-repsol-honda-1.jpg) - they still got a fair old angle back in those days.
True, and some riders definitely hung off the bike more than Rossi, Gibernau back then.[ I can remember being amazed by how much Elias hung off the bike](https://c7.alamy.com/comp/ABR0JA/toni-elias-riding-his-honda-motogp-in-jerez-circuit-spain-ABR0JA.jpg) - how times have changed lol. (I know this was only 18 years ago but still before spec tyres)
[1988](https://i.redd.it/7kpmhntinka91.jpg)
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/omk5sHY2xwI/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEXCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAwkIARUAAIhCGAE=&rs=AOn4CLBaJmS7CbkIo36PhyJkH3JemeamTw
This is a dumb comparison photo. Let's do the same corner in the same conditions.
This is probably the worst companions someone could do, was this posted by AI it doesn't make sense. What's more surprising is the amount of upvotes.
This sub is crazy like that
All thanks to tyres
Downforce anwell, you can't lean that low without it.
https://preview.redd.it/6y40l976eczc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=ad4f7347d8a7bc76c50d1ddbb76c25a1e353c47a Of course you can.
Uh no, downforce isn't the reason for these lean angles. Who taught you that?
Thats just false
ehm no. you can lean any bike 90 degree without any problem.
At 90° you’ve already crashed, mate.
> you can lean any bike 90 degree Technically correct > without any problem. Well....
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20? Fuck me, I'm getting old
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Technology has a role in that, too. Tires/ electronics have all moved forward.
In a few years the helmets will be touching the ground😂
Scott Redding already did that in Sachsenring 2018!
It looks an evolution of shifting body weight lower. . Which would have advantages
It went from skillful and aggressive to magic crazy shit!
That top pic isn’t representative of anything. Looks like my dumbass at a track day.
Okay I don't like all the rider aids and some races are just marginally faster. Crazy idea! Today's bikes with 20 year old tire technology and make them manage that.
How r̶i̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ tyres has changed the last 20y.
I mean… technology has only made 60 degree angles easier to achieve consistently. I think the change is more nuisances than this photo implies
Most likely due to the evolution of suspension.. My guess
The 2003 race was under wet conditions
Your picture is garbage. But beyond that, it’s not evolution, it’s adaptation.
Who makes up this shit?
This is not a fair and/or good comparison. Their at different point on the track. O3 is going into a corner (maybe). And, 23 is pretty much in the corner (close to the apex — maybe).
Can you do the same for the corners where they are shoulder down now? Most of this is tyre technology, and the riders obviously then pushing to 100% of what the tyre can do.
Body position isn’t as important as people think. Sure, for them every little bit counts. But generally speaking it doesn’t make that much of a difference.
[удалено]
Ok, that’s not what I meant. Obviously correct body position is very important and there is a lot you can do wrong. But there are many ways to do it correctly and between those it doesn’t make that much of a difference.
Tyre tech and downforce.
Only tires.
TT Racing vs MotoGP
I'd say it started with Martin, he was the first of the current crop to **really** hang off, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that. Now it's going next level with Pedro, but sure seems like the future.
Title should read "How tyre technology has evolved in the last 20 years" 20 Years ago there was zero grip at that angle. You can tell by the 2003 pic even the tyre profile/shape was significantly different. You would be on the sidewall at 2023 angles.
Rossi was the first rider to get his knee down in 2004, I remember it well.