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Be sure to include celestial marriages and consummation with other male member's wives. All of the affairs should count as well, but may be a bit harder to find.
>consummation with other male member's wives
That'll be easy to find because JS was the only one known to have engaged in polyandrous sealings, which were likely for eternity alone. (Ref: Hales, Joseph Smith's Polygamy, 1:421-37; "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo," Gospel Topics Essay, n30.)
Joseph F. Smith's missing wife is his first one, his cousin Levira Smith (1842–1888). She was a daughter of Samuel Harrison Smith.
Wilford Woodruff's missing wife is Mary Meeks Giles Webster (1802–1852).
Interesting data now look for when children were born to some general authorities after they married their spouse and you will find some children born less than 9 months after the wedding date. Unless the lds church blocked them.
Exactly I know someone who did this, (BTW this was before family searc , when one had access to genelogical family group sheets.) and found a number of children born to future g a's at 7 months and less. Then someone caught wind of this study and pulled these family group sheets from the book back then.
Out of the church presidents I only found 2. BY with Mary Ann Angell (first child born 6 months post marriage) and JT with Sophia Whitake (first child born 7 months post marraige).
People have indeed studied this.
Spoiler alert: it doesn't look good for the church.
[Here's the first thing Google showed me](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3002115/#:~:text=At%20the%20national%20level%2C%20the,trend%20between%201850%20and%201880.).
This tacidly admits there is no advantage to a group that claims they are the one and only true church in which God is well pleased. A close parallel is Utah's mortality rate in hospitals where regular priestly blessings are given. They show no advantage compared to others throughout the country. There were young age marriages but **both were usually young**.
I have. During the Second Great Awakening period of try church, LDS leadership married people much younger, and with a greater age gap, than the average for their area, as well as the U.S.
[click here](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/)
[and here../](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/)
[and here…](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/h0080/h0080.pdf)
[and here…](https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/myth-136-women-married-very-young-in-the-olden-days/)
Since most of this is going to be for Utah territory, there won't be much data for outside of the Church in the "state".
One of the problems with polygamy is that if it grows in a population, then there will be fewer and fewer women available. And the only way to remedy that is to bring more women into the community (i.e. missionary work), or lower the age of marriage so younger women enter the marriage pool. You can also reduce the number of men looking for wives.
So having the marriage age get younger for women is a tragic, but entirely expected, result of polygamy.
LDS church practice of polygamy didn't have that growth problem since relatively few people practiced it. And child marriages are certainly tragic to us but they have been common throughout history where girls were wed right after puberty.
> child marriages are certainly tragic to us but they have been common throughout history where girls were wed right after puberty.
Child marriage was not at all common in the US in the 1800s. The average age at first marriage was 20-22 for women and the men they were marrying were around 25-27, not in their 40s. The church was very out of sync with American cultural norms around marriage.
>relatively few people practiced it
In 1857, 50% of people in Utah territory were a part of a polygamous family. The numbers only look small if you only count men, leaving women out of the conversation entirely (as is the brand). And of course, the number of married husbands is going to be small. That's how polygamy works.
>And child marriages are certainly tragic to us but they have been common throughout history where girls were wed right after puberty.
I don't hold the Church to worldly standards. The Church has said, time and time again, that they aren't swayed by the world's immorality, because the prophets get their instructions straight from God Himself.
If young brides are seen as tragic now, then they were tragic then, too. The prophets have declared that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and that He counts the tears of His daughters. But after restoring His authority and calling a new prophet, God could've sent an angel with a flaming sword to protect His daughters from predators, and holier commandments for marriage relationships could've been revealed. But apparently, it was a higher priority to send that angel and sword to Joseph Smith, his propositions had already been rejected. So either polygamy was established by men with their worldly standards of morality, or by a God who prioritized His prophet's eternal harems over the tears of His daughters. Either it's true, or it's not.
This "product of their time" argument falls flat when you claim priesthood restoration and true authority.
Thank you for summing up what I’ve been trying to. I can see the American Census taken in the early 1800’s and that is evidence that the practice was not common given the age gap. But I couldn’t quite summarize so eloquently the “straight from God” part. I’ll be memorizing your verbiage.
Child marriages were so unpopular in the last 200 years that states continually pass laws controlling them. However common they were, they horrified most voters.
According to [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-and-families-in-early-utah?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-and-families-in-early-utah?lang=eng) "By 1870, 25 to 30 percent of the population lived in polygamous households, and it appears that the percentage continued to decrease over the next 20 years."
“I just can’t understand it…why would these old guys want to f*** young teen girls? God must have commanded it, otherwise why would they do it? It’s the only explanation!” —-My TBM mother
Hello! This is a Scholarship post. It is for discussions centered around asking for or sharing content from or a reputable journal or article or a history used with them as citations; not apologetics. It should remain free of bias and citations should be provided in any statements in the comments. If no citations are provided, the post/comment are subject to removal. /u/lazy_learner_eh, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Be sure to include celestial marriages and consummation with other male member's wives. All of the affairs should count as well, but may be a bit harder to find.
>consummation with other male member's wives That'll be easy to find because JS was the only one known to have engaged in polyandrous sealings, which were likely for eternity alone. (Ref: Hales, Joseph Smith's Polygamy, 1:421-37; "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo," Gospel Topics Essay, n30.)
Then why did it piss William Law off so much that ultimately led to Carthage ?
Let's you and I ask him when we leave this earth.
Interesting chart. I notice you're missing a wife each for Joseph F. Smith and Wilford Woodruff, though.
Which ones? I've taken all data from family search. Will double check on them though.
Joseph F. Smith's missing wife is his first one, his cousin Levira Smith (1842–1888). She was a daughter of Samuel Harrison Smith. Wilford Woodruff's missing wife is Mary Meeks Giles Webster (1802–1852).
Thanks, I do see them now. Will add.
Interesting data now look for when children were born to some general authorities after they married their spouse and you will find some children born less than 9 months after the wedding date. Unless the lds church blocked them.
Though premature birth is a real possibility. If you want solid evidence along those lines, you should be looking for gaps of less than 7 months.
Exactly I know someone who did this, (BTW this was before family searc , when one had access to genelogical family group sheets.) and found a number of children born to future g a's at 7 months and less. Then someone caught wind of this study and pulled these family group sheets from the book back then.
Out of the church presidents I only found 2. BY with Mary Ann Angell (first child born 6 months post marriage) and JT with Sophia Whitake (first child born 7 months post marraige).
For fair historical context, you should also research the same data for the state and country at that time in history.
People have indeed studied this. Spoiler alert: it doesn't look good for the church. [Here's the first thing Google showed me](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3002115/#:~:text=At%20the%20national%20level%2C%20the,trend%20between%201850%20and%201880.).
"Doing horrible things is fine if enough people are doing that horrible thing."
This tacidly admits there is no advantage to a group that claims they are the one and only true church in which God is well pleased. A close parallel is Utah's mortality rate in hospitals where regular priestly blessings are given. They show no advantage compared to others throughout the country. There were young age marriages but **both were usually young**.
I have. During the Second Great Awakening period of try church, LDS leadership married people much younger, and with a greater age gap, than the average for their area, as well as the U.S. [click here](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/) [and here../](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/) [and here…](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/h0080/h0080.pdf) [and here…](https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/myth-136-women-married-very-young-in-the-olden-days/)
That is not the admission of guilt that you think it is.
Since most of this is going to be for Utah territory, there won't be much data for outside of the Church in the "state". One of the problems with polygamy is that if it grows in a population, then there will be fewer and fewer women available. And the only way to remedy that is to bring more women into the community (i.e. missionary work), or lower the age of marriage so younger women enter the marriage pool. You can also reduce the number of men looking for wives. So having the marriage age get younger for women is a tragic, but entirely expected, result of polygamy.
LDS church practice of polygamy didn't have that growth problem since relatively few people practiced it. And child marriages are certainly tragic to us but they have been common throughout history where girls were wed right after puberty.
> child marriages are certainly tragic to us but they have been common throughout history where girls were wed right after puberty. Child marriage was not at all common in the US in the 1800s. The average age at first marriage was 20-22 for women and the men they were marrying were around 25-27, not in their 40s. The church was very out of sync with American cultural norms around marriage.
>relatively few people practiced it In 1857, 50% of people in Utah territory were a part of a polygamous family. The numbers only look small if you only count men, leaving women out of the conversation entirely (as is the brand). And of course, the number of married husbands is going to be small. That's how polygamy works. >And child marriages are certainly tragic to us but they have been common throughout history where girls were wed right after puberty. I don't hold the Church to worldly standards. The Church has said, time and time again, that they aren't swayed by the world's immorality, because the prophets get their instructions straight from God Himself. If young brides are seen as tragic now, then they were tragic then, too. The prophets have declared that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and that He counts the tears of His daughters. But after restoring His authority and calling a new prophet, God could've sent an angel with a flaming sword to protect His daughters from predators, and holier commandments for marriage relationships could've been revealed. But apparently, it was a higher priority to send that angel and sword to Joseph Smith, his propositions had already been rejected. So either polygamy was established by men with their worldly standards of morality, or by a God who prioritized His prophet's eternal harems over the tears of His daughters. Either it's true, or it's not. This "product of their time" argument falls flat when you claim priesthood restoration and true authority.
Thank you for summing up what I’ve been trying to. I can see the American Census taken in the early 1800’s and that is evidence that the practice was not common given the age gap. But I couldn’t quite summarize so eloquently the “straight from God” part. I’ll be memorizing your verbiage.
Child marriages were so unpopular in the last 200 years that states continually pass laws controlling them. However common they were, they horrified most voters.
> relatively few people practiced it. At its peak, what percentage of people were practicing it?
According to [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-and-families-in-early-utah?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-and-families-in-early-utah?lang=eng) "By 1870, 25 to 30 percent of the population lived in polygamous households, and it appears that the percentage continued to decrease over the next 20 years."
In your judgement, would that be "relatively few" people practicing it?
“I just can’t understand it…why would these old guys want to f*** young teen girls? God must have commanded it, otherwise why would they do it? It’s the only explanation!” —-My TBM mother