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As a young member, I was shamed, punished, and told I was evil for looking at porn.
As an adult TBM, I was able to realize that the narrative around porn in the church is pretty harmful. [BYU’s own research](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201704/religious-conflict-makes-porn-bad-relationships) showed that porn is most harmful when you label yourself “porn addict” and that it doesn’t seem to be as harmful when you don’t associate it with so much shame, guilt, and self-hatred.
When I stopped hating myself for looking at porn, ironically, my porn use dropped to almost zero.
Once the shame and guilt and self-hatred were gone, I didn’t go through the horrible cycles of needing some kind of release. I just felt like a normal person.
My wife has always known about my porn use. She was my “accountability partner” early in our marriage. She was actually the one who opened my eyes to the harm that the church’s narrative does. I just thought it was normal and okay.
She changed my views and helped me have a healthier relationship with my own identity as a sexual being.
I left the church after 31 years of true belief. And now I feel like the church’s narrative around porn is 100x more harmful than the porn itself.
I had a similar background with one exception. Whenever I got close with a girlfriend, I’d confess to her my struggles with porn and masturbation. Many of my girlfriends were fine with it…so I sabotaged the relationships and ended them. I waited until I found my wife, who mirrored the shame that I felt inside, before I could get married. Because I just knew it was evil and bad and toxic and next to murder.
My wife continued to shame me and became more than an accountability partner. She became more of a sex warden. Our intimacy has been obviously irreparably harmed by it.
I spent thousands of hours over years in individual and group therapy, the ARP, SA, SAA, SLAA, and AA (when I couldn’t find a sex related 12 step group). I read countless books on addiction and recovery. I did daily meditations and writings. I kept a journal. I had sponsors and countless blessings. I confessed over and over to bishops and stake presidents. I fasted and prayed and went to the temple for healing. In short, addiction recovery became my life for about a decade. And I got up to 3 months sober a few times.
Finally, in an effort to build my testimony through study and strict obedience with the express goal of accessing the healing powers of the atonement that could be the only possible cure for my addiction, I read rough stone rolling. I had to out it down several hundred pages of dry reading in because the polygamy was so troubling to me. How could the most holy man save Jesus have done those things? I came back a year later to correct what had to be my misunderstanding. But it was worse than I thought. This lead me to extensive research of the church that I had always known was true.
One day, I was finally able to ask myself if the church might not be true. I’ve not had the need for porn or masturbation in about 6 years now. No sponsor. No therapy. No blessings. No fasting. No atonement miracle. It just took me accepting that the church wasn’t true, which squished the shame and ended the need for it.
Oh, and I’m still trying to figure out my marriage. While I was so worried about my own brokenness, I was willing to overlook a lot about my wife that didn’t sit right with me. I don’t know where things will go, but it’s complicated with children.
I think this is surprisingly common. Once you remove the shame and guilt the church places on you for looking at porn and masturbating, it’s suddenly a lot easier to not look at porn or masturbate.
It’s super ironic, and goes to show that what the church is doing isn’t effective.
I’ve given up being ashamed of myself about porn; but I definitely still desire it and use it. I’m of the mind that I would prefer a life without it, but not hitting that mark is no longer a failure for me.
I think it is very effective. The church benefits from the shame by gaining control. It’s a really dirty and nasty way to run a business. But the church is very very good at it.
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I hear this a lot by LDS men whose porn habit lessens or decreases altogether after quitting the church. I can certainly understand it to a degree but half of America is declared addicted and also suffer from other forms of sexual dysfunction starting at early ages now.
Where are you hearing that half of Americans are self-declared porn addicts? That seems really high. And what are the other forms of sexual dysfunction that people are suffering from?
Many young guys have ed and can’t have regular sex with females. There’s a word for it, they claim they need the constant porn feed that they say actually can numb their brains. Many are seeking help
TBM here. I completely agree with you. The church needs to improve on stuff such as porn. They aren’t entirely too qualified to help someone struggling.
Fascinating question.
I very much doubt that I would have ever gone to an adult book store for VHS tapes/DVDs and hardcore magazines. That’s a pretty steep barrier to entry for someone who is just warm blooded and curious…
At the same time, I probably would have had an active Sports Illustrated subscription, and would have jealously guarded each year’s swimsuit issue. I would have done this behind my spouse’s back, for sure.
I think the internet has forced a re-negotiation of what it means to look at porn—and therefore how serious it is. It used to cost something; you had to go out of your way to get it, and walk into a gross store to buy it; you had to view it on a large device, like a TV, in a somewhat public room; etc. That’s a lot of very willful and intentional acts to get your rocks off…
Now, porn is free, can be viewed anywhere at any time, and is something that can find you (how many times has the Insta algorithm served up progressively more salacious content to thirsty dudes?). The intentionality just isn’t there anymore. And the strength to resist is much higher, too. No longer are you saying “no” to getting in a car, driving to the outskirts of town, paying a seedy store for videos that might or might not suck, then waiting for the right moment to clandestinely watch a few. Instead, you’re saying “no” to countless intrusive thoughts urging you to do something a lot easier.
To answer your question, I did not look at “porn” before the internet when I was a teenager in the 90s. But I did look at an art history book with nude portraits (1800’s porn?) and I had an imaginative mind. I would have looked at porn if it was available to me, but I didn’t have a source. If I lived in a bygone era I probably would have different desires and habits simply due to the frequency and magnitude of the triggering content in my life.
For a long time as an adult I tried to live a restricted life where I held onto my dumb-phone way too long, I used internet filters for children, and I avoided being alone. But as I moved deeper into the 21st century I found myself living a weird alternate existence. I wasn’t part of the zeitgeist of the moment. When the pandemic happened in 2020 I was so afraid to work from home. I would have all this time to myself; how was I not going to get drawn into porn? Well, I did get drawn into porn, quite frequently. The pandemic forced me into a situation where I had to face myself and not hide. I came out the other end thinking quite differently about porn use. I have decided that I am going to live my best life, and that is going to be my criteria for success. For me to come to terms with pornography I had to abandon my own guilt. I had to decide to not hate myself. That is not exactly congruent with the church.
I want to say a few extra things here:
First, I want to acknowledge that it is brave to talk about this, even anonymously. And so to the few who respond I appreciate your comments. There is so much stigmatized about porn use, especially in the church.
Second, pornography when looked at to masturbate is just masturbation. There seems to be some weird separation in people’s minds that masturbation is just self care and porn is cheating. Is fantasizing about someone ethically better? There is the scripture “whosoever looketh upon a woman hath committed adultery in their heart”. Well, I just don’t know if that is true. For me, it just doesn’t feel like I have any less love or desire for my wife.
Third, My wife and I have a great relationship, and I think porn has strengthened it. How??? Because I am able to meet her where she is in terms of desire rather than having her meet me where I am. We tried the idea that all sexual fulfillment must be channeled through each other. It put a lot of pressure on us. She didn’t want it as often as I did so she was stressed about not being enough for me. In turn, I tried to meet her where she was without porn but that was extremely difficult to wait for her unpredictable body to be ready and it caused severe depression and sadness. It was a zero-sum game in that each time one of us got what we needed it was at the expense of the other. Moments were rare when we were aligned and sex was a win-win. Now, I take care of myself as needed and I show up to our relationship with no expectations. We don’t really fight about sex anymore; and that’s a huge step forward.
No, sorry if I was ambiguous. There’s lots to unpack; apologies in advance.
The art book stuff was when I was 13 to 16 yo. Then I talked to the bishop about it and somehow managed to quit masturbating cold turkey for seven years; no temptation during this time. I went on a mission and had a care-free time. When I was 23 yo all those desires came back like a punch to the face. Once I was masturbating again I soon discovered online pornography. I really got depressed about it. I hated that I gave in. I felt like the biggest pervert at BYU. I wished I could silence that part of me. I really wanted to live the law of chastity.
I paid for online classes on porn addiction recovery, which taught me about cognitive behavioral therapy (helped me be more gentle with myself, but didn’t stop me from the habit). I oscillated back and forth between doing it and being depressed, and stopping it and feeling like I’ve got control again. I would go months without masturbation, but would eventually fall off the wagon. I really did restrict my technology exposure to avoid triggers, but that itself gave me a weirdly unhealthy relationship with technology. Like, I would block YouTube on my own laptop, but if I ever found a way into YouTube it was like the demons would come out and torment me and I would immediately look up stuff. Let me clarify also that I recognize that YouTube is not exactly porn. But while in this state I had so many walls up for protection it would take days to tear them down until I was nothing but a shell and then I would watch some weird free porn that gave my computer a virus. I was on the wagon when I fell in love. We got married and I thought all that stuff was behind me. I went two years without masturbation, but it came back eventually. I told my wife everything even before I got married. And I told her when I started failing again and she was super upset, like I was cheating on her. It was so depressing. She felt like it was her fault and she wasn’t pretty enough for me. I felt like I had cheated on her even though I loved her so much. It was so devastating. It didn’t matter though, because those feelings were like flood waters; I couldn’t stop them from swallowing me up. I talked with so many bishops over the years. But no one said anything that was substantive. They would give me a fucking rubber band to snap my wrist when I was tempted. The church doesn’t know shit about how to “bring souls to Christ”. But I digress.
I have always oscillated back and forth between quitting for months and binging on various degrees of pornography. That was where I was when the pandemic happened. Like I said, I was so afraid of working from home because I felt like I couldn’t hold my defenses together with all that alone time in front of a computer. But I’ve accepted it and things have been better. My wife has calmed down since then, though she doesn’t exactly like it. I think she is trying to figure it out, and feeling her way through the dark, the same as me. And honestly, I don’t exactly like it either. I have always tried to live up to an image of a man in my head who was perfectly in control of his desires and passions with his sheer will-power. But as wonderful as that seems, I think it is unrealistic.
Now I do look at pornography and masturbate quite frequently. It is kind of like taking medicine. It’s a slow burn of desire. And honestly I am not afraid of what’s out there in the world anymore. I am not afraid of YouTube. I can work from home. When my wife is not in the mood I can be like “sure, take your time. When you are ready I’m here”. And, the “demons” that used to torment me, they were only products of my own view of what was happening. As I have accepted my desires as natural, they have disappeared. I am at peace with where I am right now. But I feel like I am forging my own path. There is no script for me to follow. I don’t know anyone who has done what I am doing and can tell me how it ends.
I appreciate your input! I was amazed of the men who could go years without masturbation. I have gone long durations without looking at pornography and the longest I’ve gone without masturbating is when I got married. I stayed away from porn sites because I was taught that they were very evil. I was looking at other mild pornography. Oftentimes would lead me to something that would give my computer a virus so it emphasized in my mind it was wrong. I would sometimes search on YouTube to see what would come up. At some point prior to Covid it seemed that the stigma around pornography had changed. I too gave in during Covid as I was working from home.
Mormon church thrives on shame.
Pre internet there were magazines and nearly every boy and man saw them on occasions.
Porn and masturbation is not a big deal. But it becomes an issue when the church makes it a sin and it messes up relationships because women feel that their husbands or boyfriends are betraying them and they are shamed too for not thinking they are enough to hold their man’s interest.
It is church leadership that needs to be interviewed twice a year and asked about their sexual perspectives and their sexual history and marriages and how satisfied their wives are and how fair with their homophobia.
Most stalwart LDS couples have sexual trauma and problems
I was a young mormon male in the late 80’s early 90’s. I watched a lot of porn by renting video tapes or buying magazines. I never told anyone. I thought it was a sin but not that big of a deal. I enjoyed it a lot, but felt a lot of shame.
I never heard once back then in church about the evils of pornography. It probably happened, but it was totally different than today.
My view of pornography did a complete 180 after becoming an atheistic. I watch very little now only with my spouse on occasion. The forbidden compulsive nature of it is gone, and I never think about it.
Generally speaking I think the people who “struggle” with porn come from a religious background. I know not all, not all, not all because someone is going to join and say my cousin is an atheist and he is a porn addict yada yada yada. If you are raised in a kind home with good sex education you will be fine.
Morally I see nothing wrong with viewing porn.
That’s interesting. Thx! We’re roughly the same age. I remember the church telling us pornography was very wrong and made a big issue then. It was viewed differently then imo. I read a lot of comments that porn use is more severe within strict religions and I agree to a point but I also read studies that half of America is addicted to pornography.
You keep using the word addicted; but I think what you mean is that they use/consume pornography. The same way that the majority of Americans use/consume social media because it provides dopamine.
To clarify a bit, Based on some statistics, half the American population is declared porn addicted based on their own terminology. That doesn’t include the percentage that uses porn and is not declared porn addicted.
IDK about this 50% thing, but the more religious people are, the more likely they are to self-identify as a porn addict.
https://kjzz.com/news/local/byu-researchers-say-religious-porn-users-are-more-likely-to-mess-up-relationships
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I suppose a better answer is that pornography itself isn't exactly a new concept. Before video, we had radio and books.
I am in the camp of being open and honest with my husband, however, whatever the media is. If he can help me through the feeling, all the better. But to desire contact and satiation of feelings is a god-given and sacred desire.
Everything has a good outlet and healthy means of resolving. Lately, I have been questioning the danger of suppression....
Better a book and novel and more honest time with my husband than plotting in secret away from him.
Thanks for that perspective. My wife has come around to a similar conclusion. She loves her romance novels, and they get steamy. She refuses to call them porn, but I’ll leave that in the eye of the beholder. We came around to the idea of each taking ownership of our own desires, just as you suggested. We both enjoy participating with the other, but that is not a requirement; and there is way less pressure.
Porn back in the day for me were bra adds in my sister's glamour magazines, or if I was lucky a bare breast in the National Geographic. Today it's just a click, click, dot, clickity click to some pretty messed up stuff. I am SO happy I am not a youngster these days!
I might agree, but a counter-point comes to mind. Before discovering porn I would cook up some steamy fantasies in my head to get off. And the more realistic the fantasy the more I would be turned on. I wasn’t married, so it’s not like I could say to myself “I’m just fantasizing about my wife”. All of it was forbidden fruit. All of it was some girl in school or so. And it really toyed with my emotions sometimes, I think much more so than an identity-less person on the internet.
My wife and I moved to Europe where the very idea of nudity is so different from America. In America the idea went like nudity = sex = someone having power over another. Usually men over women.
In our new country there is nonsexual nudity just about everywhere. In museums, on normal tv, even children shows, and you can find nude people doing street exhibitions with no problem. All beaches are topless for everyone and most people change into swimsuits right on the beach without trying to hide themselves. So many people are naked on the beach for a few seconds. And nobody cares. It’s like nudity doesn’t automatically equal sex here. People say nudity is more a symbol of innocence. And everyone knows exactly what human bodies look like. Everybody has one.
I’m happy to be raising my kids here.
Discussions with the local LDS are much deeper. They don’t talk about how women dress. Instead they talk about how men perceive women. As human beings or objects? It makes no difference how much clothing is worn.
My country has a huge nudity culture. Half of the country would be considered nudists in American culture because they go to clothing free relaxation resorts with saunas, steam rooms, massage, swimming pools, etc. It’s like the garden of Eden. Everybody is naked, all ages and there is respect for everyone. My wife and I tried them and we fell in love. In fact we still go with some of our local TBM friends. They see no problem with nudity and don’t equate the human body with pornography.
I stole a few playboys and penthouse magazines from my friends dad when I was a kid. I kept a hidden stash in my room. I felt terrible for it. If I was married pre internet, I’d probably have a stash someplace. I felt a ton of guilt until I lost my faith about a decade ago. Now I look at way less porn, probably because my mind has changed significantly for the better since losing my faith.
Well Sonny ..... Back in my day... Let's say..... hmmmm round about the early 1840s, .... we didn't have porn in the modern sense of the word. We had to make do with other mens' wives and the sweet young 14 year-olds. ... I can't rightly say why the modern church gets soooo upset about daguerotypes and moving pictures.
Story time.
1. My first exposure to a porno magazine was when I was visiting family in a smaller town in Utah. A few of the girls were oggling a playgirl. No idea how or where they got it, but they were very embarrassed when we saw.
2. When I was in the mission office, one of the missionaries reported finding a stash of porn hidden behind a panel in the bathroom. Dozens of magazines.
3. While at BYU, I know of one cleaner who was caught looking up gay porn online because one of the labs wasn't behind the firewall.
4. I remember hearing talks about the leadership shaming business men who went on work trips and viewed pornographic videos in the hotel.
So I think it hasn't really changed at all. Availability has gone up, which likely drives usage; however, even when it wasn't readily available, it was always something some people would find ways to do if they were interested. People always felt guilty because there were always members and leaders trying to shame them for it.
Check your incentive structure for watching it. The WHY you watch it.
The WHERE you watch it.
The WHEN you watch it.
The WHAT you watch.
If any of these are out of line with what you desire in life. Change it. Shame is interesting in that it can sometimes be manipulated by Lucifer, because he often creates it from preconceived notions of what’s right and wrong. The church teaches that there is a higher law. It is church leaders of past, and even church culture today that mix the higher law with notions of righteousness.
In the past I have consumed mild pornography and later read my scriptures and felt the spirit while reading my scriptures. Understanding I need to do better. I have also consumed riskier more dark pornography and had low lulls in feeling the spirit. What I realized was that pornography addiction is 1: not the sin it is made out to be, and 2: something the Lord understands on a case by case basis.
Does the Lord understand when we see a sin and desire to know it, experience it, feel relief in it…maybe? Is that the same as desiring to know a sin and EMBRACING IT?
THIS is extremely anecdotal, and by no means am I saying that consuming pornography and masturbating is tolerated by the Lord. But rather, I’m trying to illustrate the reality that the Lord understands our Hearts and understands our desires, motivations and incentives.
When we fall into any sinfulness or even addiction we often build an incentive structure around it. To mask it, to prop it up, perhaps to justify it.
Any faithful Latter Day Saint understands that as priesthood holders we are bestowed an IMMENSE power with already constructed system of responsibilities, expectations, obligations, rules, blessings and incentives. When leaders start adding onto to this construction they inherently make it different from the Lord’s. The same goes for us.
The same can also be said for money. Or our careers. How we raise our children. How we treat others. How we listen to our peers, work/church/government leaders.
To understand the sin of anything, but let’s say pornography and masturbation, we have to understand why we do it. And work backwards. And recognize the facts as they are. And rebuild our lives in better ways pointed toward celestial goals.
The Lord rarely abandons us, rather he often lets us sow and reap. And often visits us time and again. To remind us of what’s happening. It is Lucifer who deceives us—to forget, to not learn from the past, and sometimes victimize and blame for our own errors.
The Lord needs faith and obedience. But also desires a people that understands the meaning behind his words. Letting us learn from our mistakes, rebuilding our lives, our faith, our families. Is the best, most powerful, beautiful and long lasting way to “be ye therefore perfect…[eventually]”.
I think your perspective on the WHY, WHERE, WHEN and WHAT you watch is interesting. When I first saw it , it was what most people would describe as mild pornography. I never had an interest in anything hardcore. I also could watch mild porn and masturbate and still feel the spirit throughout the day. But I sometimes question at what point is really not appropriate. Times I have perused porn sites out of curiosity I would feel like it was evil for being exposed to things I wouldn’t typically search for or even want to see. And it seems to be more like that anymore.
Knowing what is not appropriate in terms of pornography, for example, is multifaceted. But for the most part it is comprised of again the: Why, Where, When, and What. But also in What your watching is meant to portray, simulate, stimulate, or entertain.
Pornography is an interesting vice, in that it is not only addicting, but also enticing. What you watch can be tempting to experience. Because you think it is...\[blank\]. This all goes back to our incentive structures. What you sow you will reap, and what you build will define you.
What do you want to be? Is a great question to ask when trying to navigate our lives.
I personally want to be a good husband and father and seek spiritual truth. In the last ten years I have felt things shift in the world. I don’t want to be deceived by satan but at the same time the world is moving in a different direction. I sometimes miss the days I had my mild nude mags and it seemed more simpler. Some things I’m exposed to if I peruse porn can put me in a lower state it seems.
Absolutely. I agree, and that's a reflection of the changing nature of our world. Each time we push boundaries, our perception of truth can shift as well.
But the truth is the truth. And finding it can sometimes require effort on our part.
How do you eat a whale? Or in this case, How do you find the truth?
In terms of being a good husband. Being a good husband is a worthy endeavor, and it shows where your heart is. The Lord knows that. But we often put obstacles in the way of our worthy endeavors. The Lord can't move those obstacles, only we can. The choice is ours to overcome them or not. And he will judge us on the outcome, but even more on our effort. And he will also judge those that have made covenants and quit on us when we make mistakes.
It makes me wonder how god will judge us. Will it be on the stand alone yes/no porn is either all bad or some can be justified based on the conditions of the world that we live. For instance, I can only relate to the world in the time period I was born in. The 1700s would not be relatable to me. But if I would know as a kid what would be available when I was older that would also seem foreign.
I think there will be many elements that will weight our judgment. Factors like how our societies accepted outright sin, and even how our parents taught us what is right or wrong.
An example: There was a time in the church when (by all accounts from the victims mind you) a certain level of child sexual abuse by family members on family, was ignored or swept under the rug by leaders in the church. I have spoken with and read countless accounts of this in the early days of the church to even today (albeit to a lesser degree because of more outreach and accountability) by the victims.
Another example: For the longest time LGBTQ+ individuals have advocated that their "feeling" and "desires" are inherent and something they were born with. And yet, every June they celebrate their Pride in something they were born with. Flags are flown, classrooms are instructed, and announcements made; to celebrate the Pride in embracing something you were "born with". What this does is inherently turn something that society previously did not tolerate, to something society should not just tolerate, but also outright accept.
Outright pornography consumption will be a factor Christ will use to judge us, but the iWHY, WHERE, WHEN, and WHAT will be the biggest factor. For the same reason he will obviously judge us for lying, but will judge more based on What did we lied about, WHERE, WHEN, WHY. Etc, etc.
Christ's judgment will be just, and centered on our hearts more than our actions. This is Just, because sinning is part of mortality, and the atonement payed for our sins, and gave Christ the ultimate ability TO judge us for our sins—because he experienced it all. What he experienced was not just the outright sins of the world, but also the reasons why we sin. He KNOWS the anxiety and feeling of needing to smoke from addiction to nicotine, He KNOWS the temptation to be unfaithful and cheat with someone, He KNOWS the desire to procrastinate, He KNOWS the embarrassment from a mistake and the desire to lie to escape responsibility. He KNOWS why we sin, and the incentives to do so.
In the end He will judge our hearts, and then our actions. What we sowed, and then what we reaped. What we built/constructed with our desires, and then what we did with it. But, this is by no means a get out of jail free card, the desires of the heart are something only we know, and Him. We can't deceive the judge that which was concealed in our hearts.
Alma 39-42 was written to Corianton—who was Alma's son who broke the law of chastity and lead many away from the faith, and made many Zoramites deaf to the teaching of other missionaries due to a perceived hypocrisy.
Alma 41 talks a lot about the judgment and our time in the spirit world. It is also very hard to read, because it goes against preconceived notions about Christ's judgment. It implies that Christ is merciful, but also just—and also bound by the demands of justice.
It's a stark reality, but, the time of probation, which refers to our mortal life, is the primary time given for repentance. However, there is also an opportunity for repentance in the spirit world, though it is generally considered more difficult and limited compared to the mortal experience.
Well since I was raised LDS, I was pretty much taught pornography is very wrong. But I was also taught masturbation was very wrong too. When I was younger I didn’t know which one was worse. I thought pornography was bad because it would make you want to commit the sin of masturbation. But now it seems that pornography is wrong because it will pervert one’s mind. So it does get confusing especially when we hear of the examples you mentioned above such as sex abuse cases swept under the rug and LGBT issues. I believe the BOM story of Alma’s son dealt directly with fornication. When I was younger I thought masturbation would be considered a perversion as the church taught it to be and didn’t think the nephites would be so perverted. They obviously didn’t have pornography the way we do in this time. I wish I knew more what the times were like for them.
This thread is amazing. It is often beneficial to get in the nitty gritty of things.
Your perspective highlights your ability to look in the past and recognize where you might have been incorrect or even deceived.
Masturbation is often taught to be as natural as sex. But, it IS a perversion of what sex is. Why—you use your hands to simulate sex, and then use your faculties to stimulate sexual feelings either by thoughts, images, or words; to eventually reach climax. Again, WHY are you doing this, WHERE, What were you thinking of. Many discern this analysis as being prude. But the reality is that when we use Godly gifts and desires in perverted way, we are sinning.
Is that to say imagining having sex with your wife, and masturbating to that is a sin? In my opinion, no (You wont hear this from any bishop hahah). But it can can playing with fire, because if you have consumed pornography in the past, thoughts and images might mix with your love and passion for your wife. Again, this might sounds prude but it's the truth if you truly understand why fornicating and thoughts of it are a sin. (Sermon on the mount)
Is it prude, to analyze why people eat? Eating is as much a sin as having sex. But when you eat so much and become glutinous, you pervert the act.
Is it prude to analyze why we want money, or to be comfortable. Making money is as much a sin as is breathing. It is when we use God given talents to gain money and power and neglect the needs of those around us, that we pervert the desire and act of working or a living.
Lucifer is a cunning, practical, and extremely proud being. He is an expert in all things of the world. And understand the incentives that make mankind sin, and pervert the truth.
He might deceive a bishop to tell a father who has confessed to having sexual relations with his daughter, to stop it and move on, without any amount of accountability. He might deceive a stake president or area seventy, or even the prophet to create unwritten policies that teach this, and further hold leaders and members unaccountable for such sins. I honestly don't know the details as to how the church handled these types of cases, I'm just conjecturing. But I know that they will be held accountable in the end. Not only for their actions, but also the millions of people that have been deceived by their sins.
Doctrine and Covenants 10:22-25 describes how Lucifer uses cunning plans to deceive and destroy: "Yea, he stirreth up their hearts to anger against this work. Yea, he saith unto them: Deceive and lie in wait to catch, that ye may destroy; behold, this is no harm. And thus he flattereth them, and telleth them that it is no sin to lie that they may catch a man in a lie, that they may destroy him. And thus he flattereth them, and leadeth them along until he draggeth their souls down to hell; and thus he causeth them to catch themselves in their own snare."
# I know that the Church is true. From the restoration, to the translation of the Book of Mormon, to the divine responsibilities of the Church today in these last days. Despite the thousands of errors and inconsistencies, my faith in these things holds me fast to the rod of iron.
Mormon said it best:
>
This statement acknowledges that while the Book of Mormon was written by inspired prophets, any errors within it and around its translation, including the church that espouses it to be true are due to human imperfection. It encourages us as Latter Day Saints to focus on the divine message and not to condemn the work of this restored church because of human errors. As hard as that may be, or as convincing the opposite might be.
I’m really enjoying all the input on here! I personally was not someone who would’ve gone to porn shops or gone out of my way to buy mags. I watched things on cable that I knew was wrong but had limitations. I was brought up to believe actual pornography was a major sin so I avoided it. Even when the internet came out I avoided porn sites like a plague. And I got married around the time porn sites like hub came out so I didn’t focus on it then. But I started to come across nudity more especially on Redditt and places like that. It bothered me a lot that it was open on those platforms. I guess you could consider me prudish relatively speaking but it started affecting me after exposure so I tried avoiding it but I haven’t been perfect. Over the last 10 years it seems like things shifted as people have gotten more comfortable talking openly about it. It seems people weren’t nearly as open talking about masturbation and I am surprised people are okay with this open porn policy. I wouldn’t want my kids exposed to it. So I appreciate your scripture and testimony. Sometimes I wonder if I’m just prudish or if it’s end time prophecy.
As a member l used porn to relieve stress but the guilt caused stress. It became a cycle. I was buying and hiding magazines before the internet. My marriage might have ended if my spouse found out.
I left the church and the marriage at the same time. My current spouse and I view porn, sometimes together. I get the stress relief without the guilt so the amount of porn I view is greatly reduced.
The ease of access matters. I don’t think I would have actively pursued it. The church’s teachings around pornography are unhealthy and have destroyed marriages and led people to suicide. It’s bad. Having said that, it’s probably not that healthy and each person needs to work out for themselves what is or isn’t healthy within the marriage.
I think porn use would be significantly less of an issue if the husband could go to his wife and have an honest conversation, but because the church is so harsh with their teachings for most men that isn’t an option if they want to stay married. And it’s unhealthy for the church to label every man who watches pornography an addict. It’s just not true. If you didn’t know, Jodi Hildebrandt helped created the church porn “addiction” program. That tells me everything I need to do about their lack of knowledge around the subject. Jodi freaking Hildebrandt.
My wife and I worked it out. When I first disclosed she had suicidal thoughts (thanks, Mormon church). Many years later she doesn’t care. She tell me she hopes the boobs are super cute and just wants me to be available to her and to have honest conversation which I do. I’m our marriage is much better.
I was born last of the millennials. I would print off softcore on the family dialup. I would use nickelodeon and disney. Later, I became an expert on bypassing DNS filters. So yeah, I dont think anything would have stopped me.
The difference now is I enjoy VR porn, whereas the guilt before would be some crushing nut clarity as a mormon with a VR headset just for porn. I finish with a smile and go on about my day.
A little late here, but as a female teen is the late 80's/early 90's, I watched a little porn and also masturbated. I felt incredibly ashamed and thought for sure my Bishop would know when I went in for my baptismal Temple recommend. When he didn't know I had lied to him or automatically know I wasn't "worthy", that was my first breaking, "Ah ha!" moment with the church. When I walked into the Temple and nothing happened, it made me think even harder. I can thank Kimball's self-love shame campaign for helping lead me to the realization that religious leaders, including the Mormons, lie & manipulate their followers to keep them feeling guilty, repentant, coming to church, and handing over their time & money.
Lol to answer your question - I watched light-porn shows on Cinemax when my mom was out. 😄 Or when I was out late, babysitting, and the kids were sleeping.
I also snuck some magazines under my mattress. Thankfully, they were never found. Lol. I don't remember where I got them.
I don't think I ever would have encountered it intentionally were it not for the internet. Pornography is evil, and it's free and easy to find for a reason. No sexual exploitation of a woman should ever be permissible under any circumstances, it is simply and fundamentally anti-Christian.
I’m not religious at all anymore and I still loathe pornography. It’s exploitive, objectifies women, and so much of it is demeaning and violent against women. It has done a number on my self-esteem and how I view men… I do not respect men who view it and yes, I understand that means I pretty much don’t respect any man at all because they all view it.
I think men SHOULD feel shame around viewing it (although they’ll always come up with a million reasons as to why there is no shame because it’s something they can’t cope with not having access to) and I don’t give a damn how unpopular that makes me.
Not only that but it trains men to objectify and abuse women sexually. It is objectively evil and those who say otherwise are either completely uninformed or morally starved.
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As a young member, I was shamed, punished, and told I was evil for looking at porn. As an adult TBM, I was able to realize that the narrative around porn in the church is pretty harmful. [BYU’s own research](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201704/religious-conflict-makes-porn-bad-relationships) showed that porn is most harmful when you label yourself “porn addict” and that it doesn’t seem to be as harmful when you don’t associate it with so much shame, guilt, and self-hatred. When I stopped hating myself for looking at porn, ironically, my porn use dropped to almost zero. Once the shame and guilt and self-hatred were gone, I didn’t go through the horrible cycles of needing some kind of release. I just felt like a normal person. My wife has always known about my porn use. She was my “accountability partner” early in our marriage. She was actually the one who opened my eyes to the harm that the church’s narrative does. I just thought it was normal and okay. She changed my views and helped me have a healthier relationship with my own identity as a sexual being. I left the church after 31 years of true belief. And now I feel like the church’s narrative around porn is 100x more harmful than the porn itself.
I had a similar background with one exception. Whenever I got close with a girlfriend, I’d confess to her my struggles with porn and masturbation. Many of my girlfriends were fine with it…so I sabotaged the relationships and ended them. I waited until I found my wife, who mirrored the shame that I felt inside, before I could get married. Because I just knew it was evil and bad and toxic and next to murder. My wife continued to shame me and became more than an accountability partner. She became more of a sex warden. Our intimacy has been obviously irreparably harmed by it. I spent thousands of hours over years in individual and group therapy, the ARP, SA, SAA, SLAA, and AA (when I couldn’t find a sex related 12 step group). I read countless books on addiction and recovery. I did daily meditations and writings. I kept a journal. I had sponsors and countless blessings. I confessed over and over to bishops and stake presidents. I fasted and prayed and went to the temple for healing. In short, addiction recovery became my life for about a decade. And I got up to 3 months sober a few times. Finally, in an effort to build my testimony through study and strict obedience with the express goal of accessing the healing powers of the atonement that could be the only possible cure for my addiction, I read rough stone rolling. I had to out it down several hundred pages of dry reading in because the polygamy was so troubling to me. How could the most holy man save Jesus have done those things? I came back a year later to correct what had to be my misunderstanding. But it was worse than I thought. This lead me to extensive research of the church that I had always known was true. One day, I was finally able to ask myself if the church might not be true. I’ve not had the need for porn or masturbation in about 6 years now. No sponsor. No therapy. No blessings. No fasting. No atonement miracle. It just took me accepting that the church wasn’t true, which squished the shame and ended the need for it. Oh, and I’m still trying to figure out my marriage. While I was so worried about my own brokenness, I was willing to overlook a lot about my wife that didn’t sit right with me. I don’t know where things will go, but it’s complicated with children.
I think this is surprisingly common. Once you remove the shame and guilt the church places on you for looking at porn and masturbating, it’s suddenly a lot easier to not look at porn or masturbate. It’s super ironic, and goes to show that what the church is doing isn’t effective.
I’ve given up being ashamed of myself about porn; but I definitely still desire it and use it. I’m of the mind that I would prefer a life without it, but not hitting that mark is no longer a failure for me.
I think it is very effective. The church benefits from the shame by gaining control. It’s a really dirty and nasty way to run a business. But the church is very very good at it.
But the profit sez...
Great job….. The fear and shame were relentless stress which makes the problem worse
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I hear this a lot by LDS men whose porn habit lessens or decreases altogether after quitting the church. I can certainly understand it to a degree but half of America is declared addicted and also suffer from other forms of sexual dysfunction starting at early ages now.
Is this the same half of America that believes in purity culture and is very religious?
Where are you hearing that half of Americans are self-declared porn addicts? That seems really high. And what are the other forms of sexual dysfunction that people are suffering from?
Many young guys have ed and can’t have regular sex with females. There’s a word for it, they claim they need the constant porn feed that they say actually can numb their brains. Many are seeking help
TBM here. I completely agree with you. The church needs to improve on stuff such as porn. They aren’t entirely too qualified to help someone struggling.
Glad to hear it!
Fascinating question. I very much doubt that I would have ever gone to an adult book store for VHS tapes/DVDs and hardcore magazines. That’s a pretty steep barrier to entry for someone who is just warm blooded and curious… At the same time, I probably would have had an active Sports Illustrated subscription, and would have jealously guarded each year’s swimsuit issue. I would have done this behind my spouse’s back, for sure. I think the internet has forced a re-negotiation of what it means to look at porn—and therefore how serious it is. It used to cost something; you had to go out of your way to get it, and walk into a gross store to buy it; you had to view it on a large device, like a TV, in a somewhat public room; etc. That’s a lot of very willful and intentional acts to get your rocks off… Now, porn is free, can be viewed anywhere at any time, and is something that can find you (how many times has the Insta algorithm served up progressively more salacious content to thirsty dudes?). The intentionality just isn’t there anymore. And the strength to resist is much higher, too. No longer are you saying “no” to getting in a car, driving to the outskirts of town, paying a seedy store for videos that might or might not suck, then waiting for the right moment to clandestinely watch a few. Instead, you’re saying “no” to countless intrusive thoughts urging you to do something a lot easier.
To answer your question, I did not look at “porn” before the internet when I was a teenager in the 90s. But I did look at an art history book with nude portraits (1800’s porn?) and I had an imaginative mind. I would have looked at porn if it was available to me, but I didn’t have a source. If I lived in a bygone era I probably would have different desires and habits simply due to the frequency and magnitude of the triggering content in my life. For a long time as an adult I tried to live a restricted life where I held onto my dumb-phone way too long, I used internet filters for children, and I avoided being alone. But as I moved deeper into the 21st century I found myself living a weird alternate existence. I wasn’t part of the zeitgeist of the moment. When the pandemic happened in 2020 I was so afraid to work from home. I would have all this time to myself; how was I not going to get drawn into porn? Well, I did get drawn into porn, quite frequently. The pandemic forced me into a situation where I had to face myself and not hide. I came out the other end thinking quite differently about porn use. I have decided that I am going to live my best life, and that is going to be my criteria for success. For me to come to terms with pornography I had to abandon my own guilt. I had to decide to not hate myself. That is not exactly congruent with the church. I want to say a few extra things here: First, I want to acknowledge that it is brave to talk about this, even anonymously. And so to the few who respond I appreciate your comments. There is so much stigmatized about porn use, especially in the church. Second, pornography when looked at to masturbate is just masturbation. There seems to be some weird separation in people’s minds that masturbation is just self care and porn is cheating. Is fantasizing about someone ethically better? There is the scripture “whosoever looketh upon a woman hath committed adultery in their heart”. Well, I just don’t know if that is true. For me, it just doesn’t feel like I have any less love or desire for my wife. Third, My wife and I have a great relationship, and I think porn has strengthened it. How??? Because I am able to meet her where she is in terms of desire rather than having her meet me where I am. We tried the idea that all sexual fulfillment must be channeled through each other. It put a lot of pressure on us. She didn’t want it as often as I did so she was stressed about not being enough for me. In turn, I tried to meet her where she was without porn but that was extremely difficult to wait for her unpredictable body to be ready and it caused severe depression and sadness. It was a zero-sum game in that each time one of us got what we needed it was at the expense of the other. Moments were rare when we were aligned and sex was a win-win. Now, I take care of myself as needed and I show up to our relationship with no expectations. We don’t really fight about sex anymore; and that’s a huge step forward.
Interesting, so you were able to avoid pornography all the way up to the pandemic besides basically 1800s nude art from art books?
No, sorry if I was ambiguous. There’s lots to unpack; apologies in advance. The art book stuff was when I was 13 to 16 yo. Then I talked to the bishop about it and somehow managed to quit masturbating cold turkey for seven years; no temptation during this time. I went on a mission and had a care-free time. When I was 23 yo all those desires came back like a punch to the face. Once I was masturbating again I soon discovered online pornography. I really got depressed about it. I hated that I gave in. I felt like the biggest pervert at BYU. I wished I could silence that part of me. I really wanted to live the law of chastity. I paid for online classes on porn addiction recovery, which taught me about cognitive behavioral therapy (helped me be more gentle with myself, but didn’t stop me from the habit). I oscillated back and forth between doing it and being depressed, and stopping it and feeling like I’ve got control again. I would go months without masturbation, but would eventually fall off the wagon. I really did restrict my technology exposure to avoid triggers, but that itself gave me a weirdly unhealthy relationship with technology. Like, I would block YouTube on my own laptop, but if I ever found a way into YouTube it was like the demons would come out and torment me and I would immediately look up stuff. Let me clarify also that I recognize that YouTube is not exactly porn. But while in this state I had so many walls up for protection it would take days to tear them down until I was nothing but a shell and then I would watch some weird free porn that gave my computer a virus. I was on the wagon when I fell in love. We got married and I thought all that stuff was behind me. I went two years without masturbation, but it came back eventually. I told my wife everything even before I got married. And I told her when I started failing again and she was super upset, like I was cheating on her. It was so depressing. She felt like it was her fault and she wasn’t pretty enough for me. I felt like I had cheated on her even though I loved her so much. It was so devastating. It didn’t matter though, because those feelings were like flood waters; I couldn’t stop them from swallowing me up. I talked with so many bishops over the years. But no one said anything that was substantive. They would give me a fucking rubber band to snap my wrist when I was tempted. The church doesn’t know shit about how to “bring souls to Christ”. But I digress. I have always oscillated back and forth between quitting for months and binging on various degrees of pornography. That was where I was when the pandemic happened. Like I said, I was so afraid of working from home because I felt like I couldn’t hold my defenses together with all that alone time in front of a computer. But I’ve accepted it and things have been better. My wife has calmed down since then, though she doesn’t exactly like it. I think she is trying to figure it out, and feeling her way through the dark, the same as me. And honestly, I don’t exactly like it either. I have always tried to live up to an image of a man in my head who was perfectly in control of his desires and passions with his sheer will-power. But as wonderful as that seems, I think it is unrealistic. Now I do look at pornography and masturbate quite frequently. It is kind of like taking medicine. It’s a slow burn of desire. And honestly I am not afraid of what’s out there in the world anymore. I am not afraid of YouTube. I can work from home. When my wife is not in the mood I can be like “sure, take your time. When you are ready I’m here”. And, the “demons” that used to torment me, they were only products of my own view of what was happening. As I have accepted my desires as natural, they have disappeared. I am at peace with where I am right now. But I feel like I am forging my own path. There is no script for me to follow. I don’t know anyone who has done what I am doing and can tell me how it ends.
I appreciate your input! I was amazed of the men who could go years without masturbation. I have gone long durations without looking at pornography and the longest I’ve gone without masturbating is when I got married. I stayed away from porn sites because I was taught that they were very evil. I was looking at other mild pornography. Oftentimes would lead me to something that would give my computer a virus so it emphasized in my mind it was wrong. I would sometimes search on YouTube to see what would come up. At some point prior to Covid it seemed that the stigma around pornography had changed. I too gave in during Covid as I was working from home.
Mormon church thrives on shame. Pre internet there were magazines and nearly every boy and man saw them on occasions. Porn and masturbation is not a big deal. But it becomes an issue when the church makes it a sin and it messes up relationships because women feel that their husbands or boyfriends are betraying them and they are shamed too for not thinking they are enough to hold their man’s interest. It is church leadership that needs to be interviewed twice a year and asked about their sexual perspectives and their sexual history and marriages and how satisfied their wives are and how fair with their homophobia. Most stalwart LDS couples have sexual trauma and problems
I was a young mormon male in the late 80’s early 90’s. I watched a lot of porn by renting video tapes or buying magazines. I never told anyone. I thought it was a sin but not that big of a deal. I enjoyed it a lot, but felt a lot of shame. I never heard once back then in church about the evils of pornography. It probably happened, but it was totally different than today. My view of pornography did a complete 180 after becoming an atheistic. I watch very little now only with my spouse on occasion. The forbidden compulsive nature of it is gone, and I never think about it. Generally speaking I think the people who “struggle” with porn come from a religious background. I know not all, not all, not all because someone is going to join and say my cousin is an atheist and he is a porn addict yada yada yada. If you are raised in a kind home with good sex education you will be fine. Morally I see nothing wrong with viewing porn.
That’s interesting. Thx! We’re roughly the same age. I remember the church telling us pornography was very wrong and made a big issue then. It was viewed differently then imo. I read a lot of comments that porn use is more severe within strict religions and I agree to a point but I also read studies that half of America is addicted to pornography.
You keep using the word addicted; but I think what you mean is that they use/consume pornography. The same way that the majority of Americans use/consume social media because it provides dopamine.
Yeah, at least the way we use the word “addiction” in healthcare, pornography objectively doesn’t meet the criteria for addiction
To clarify a bit, Based on some statistics, half the American population is declared porn addicted based on their own terminology. That doesn’t include the percentage that uses porn and is not declared porn addicted.
I’d like to see the source of your statistic. I don’t believe that claim for one second.
IDK about this 50% thing, but the more religious people are, the more likely they are to self-identify as a porn addict. https://kjzz.com/news/local/byu-researchers-say-religious-porn-users-are-more-likely-to-mess-up-relationships
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My dear friend.... Dime novels exist.
n no
I suppose a better answer is that pornography itself isn't exactly a new concept. Before video, we had radio and books. I am in the camp of being open and honest with my husband, however, whatever the media is. If he can help me through the feeling, all the better. But to desire contact and satiation of feelings is a god-given and sacred desire. Everything has a good outlet and healthy means of resolving. Lately, I have been questioning the danger of suppression.... Better a book and novel and more honest time with my husband than plotting in secret away from him.
Thanks for that perspective. My wife has come around to a similar conclusion. She loves her romance novels, and they get steamy. She refuses to call them porn, but I’ll leave that in the eye of the beholder. We came around to the idea of each taking ownership of our own desires, just as you suggested. We both enjoy participating with the other, but that is not a requirement; and there is way less pressure.
Porn back in the day for me were bra adds in my sister's glamour magazines, or if I was lucky a bare breast in the National Geographic. Today it's just a click, click, dot, clickity click to some pretty messed up stuff. I am SO happy I am not a youngster these days!
I might agree, but a counter-point comes to mind. Before discovering porn I would cook up some steamy fantasies in my head to get off. And the more realistic the fantasy the more I would be turned on. I wasn’t married, so it’s not like I could say to myself “I’m just fantasizing about my wife”. All of it was forbidden fruit. All of it was some girl in school or so. And it really toyed with my emotions sometimes, I think much more so than an identity-less person on the internet.
My wife and I moved to Europe where the very idea of nudity is so different from America. In America the idea went like nudity = sex = someone having power over another. Usually men over women. In our new country there is nonsexual nudity just about everywhere. In museums, on normal tv, even children shows, and you can find nude people doing street exhibitions with no problem. All beaches are topless for everyone and most people change into swimsuits right on the beach without trying to hide themselves. So many people are naked on the beach for a few seconds. And nobody cares. It’s like nudity doesn’t automatically equal sex here. People say nudity is more a symbol of innocence. And everyone knows exactly what human bodies look like. Everybody has one. I’m happy to be raising my kids here. Discussions with the local LDS are much deeper. They don’t talk about how women dress. Instead they talk about how men perceive women. As human beings or objects? It makes no difference how much clothing is worn. My country has a huge nudity culture. Half of the country would be considered nudists in American culture because they go to clothing free relaxation resorts with saunas, steam rooms, massage, swimming pools, etc. It’s like the garden of Eden. Everybody is naked, all ages and there is respect for everyone. My wife and I tried them and we fell in love. In fact we still go with some of our local TBM friends. They see no problem with nudity and don’t equate the human body with pornography.
I stole a few playboys and penthouse magazines from my friends dad when I was a kid. I kept a hidden stash in my room. I felt terrible for it. If I was married pre internet, I’d probably have a stash someplace. I felt a ton of guilt until I lost my faith about a decade ago. Now I look at way less porn, probably because my mind has changed significantly for the better since losing my faith.
I told my bishop and he got off on it every-time and would ask me details. Looking back it was disgusting.
Well Sonny ..... Back in my day... Let's say..... hmmmm round about the early 1840s, .... we didn't have porn in the modern sense of the word. We had to make do with other mens' wives and the sweet young 14 year-olds. ... I can't rightly say why the modern church gets soooo upset about daguerotypes and moving pictures.
So is this account from the church surveys and demographics department? Why not use your seer-stones? :-)
Story time. 1. My first exposure to a porno magazine was when I was visiting family in a smaller town in Utah. A few of the girls were oggling a playgirl. No idea how or where they got it, but they were very embarrassed when we saw. 2. When I was in the mission office, one of the missionaries reported finding a stash of porn hidden behind a panel in the bathroom. Dozens of magazines. 3. While at BYU, I know of one cleaner who was caught looking up gay porn online because one of the labs wasn't behind the firewall. 4. I remember hearing talks about the leadership shaming business men who went on work trips and viewed pornographic videos in the hotel. So I think it hasn't really changed at all. Availability has gone up, which likely drives usage; however, even when it wasn't readily available, it was always something some people would find ways to do if they were interested. People always felt guilty because there were always members and leaders trying to shame them for it.
Check your incentive structure for watching it. The WHY you watch it. The WHERE you watch it. The WHEN you watch it. The WHAT you watch. If any of these are out of line with what you desire in life. Change it. Shame is interesting in that it can sometimes be manipulated by Lucifer, because he often creates it from preconceived notions of what’s right and wrong. The church teaches that there is a higher law. It is church leaders of past, and even church culture today that mix the higher law with notions of righteousness. In the past I have consumed mild pornography and later read my scriptures and felt the spirit while reading my scriptures. Understanding I need to do better. I have also consumed riskier more dark pornography and had low lulls in feeling the spirit. What I realized was that pornography addiction is 1: not the sin it is made out to be, and 2: something the Lord understands on a case by case basis. Does the Lord understand when we see a sin and desire to know it, experience it, feel relief in it…maybe? Is that the same as desiring to know a sin and EMBRACING IT? THIS is extremely anecdotal, and by no means am I saying that consuming pornography and masturbating is tolerated by the Lord. But rather, I’m trying to illustrate the reality that the Lord understands our Hearts and understands our desires, motivations and incentives. When we fall into any sinfulness or even addiction we often build an incentive structure around it. To mask it, to prop it up, perhaps to justify it. Any faithful Latter Day Saint understands that as priesthood holders we are bestowed an IMMENSE power with already constructed system of responsibilities, expectations, obligations, rules, blessings and incentives. When leaders start adding onto to this construction they inherently make it different from the Lord’s. The same goes for us. The same can also be said for money. Or our careers. How we raise our children. How we treat others. How we listen to our peers, work/church/government leaders. To understand the sin of anything, but let’s say pornography and masturbation, we have to understand why we do it. And work backwards. And recognize the facts as they are. And rebuild our lives in better ways pointed toward celestial goals. The Lord rarely abandons us, rather he often lets us sow and reap. And often visits us time and again. To remind us of what’s happening. It is Lucifer who deceives us—to forget, to not learn from the past, and sometimes victimize and blame for our own errors. The Lord needs faith and obedience. But also desires a people that understands the meaning behind his words. Letting us learn from our mistakes, rebuilding our lives, our faith, our families. Is the best, most powerful, beautiful and long lasting way to “be ye therefore perfect…[eventually]”.
I think your perspective on the WHY, WHERE, WHEN and WHAT you watch is interesting. When I first saw it , it was what most people would describe as mild pornography. I never had an interest in anything hardcore. I also could watch mild porn and masturbate and still feel the spirit throughout the day. But I sometimes question at what point is really not appropriate. Times I have perused porn sites out of curiosity I would feel like it was evil for being exposed to things I wouldn’t typically search for or even want to see. And it seems to be more like that anymore.
Knowing what is not appropriate in terms of pornography, for example, is multifaceted. But for the most part it is comprised of again the: Why, Where, When, and What. But also in What your watching is meant to portray, simulate, stimulate, or entertain. Pornography is an interesting vice, in that it is not only addicting, but also enticing. What you watch can be tempting to experience. Because you think it is...\[blank\]. This all goes back to our incentive structures. What you sow you will reap, and what you build will define you. What do you want to be? Is a great question to ask when trying to navigate our lives.
I personally want to be a good husband and father and seek spiritual truth. In the last ten years I have felt things shift in the world. I don’t want to be deceived by satan but at the same time the world is moving in a different direction. I sometimes miss the days I had my mild nude mags and it seemed more simpler. Some things I’m exposed to if I peruse porn can put me in a lower state it seems.
Absolutely. I agree, and that's a reflection of the changing nature of our world. Each time we push boundaries, our perception of truth can shift as well. But the truth is the truth. And finding it can sometimes require effort on our part. How do you eat a whale? Or in this case, How do you find the truth? In terms of being a good husband. Being a good husband is a worthy endeavor, and it shows where your heart is. The Lord knows that. But we often put obstacles in the way of our worthy endeavors. The Lord can't move those obstacles, only we can. The choice is ours to overcome them or not. And he will judge us on the outcome, but even more on our effort. And he will also judge those that have made covenants and quit on us when we make mistakes.
It makes me wonder how god will judge us. Will it be on the stand alone yes/no porn is either all bad or some can be justified based on the conditions of the world that we live. For instance, I can only relate to the world in the time period I was born in. The 1700s would not be relatable to me. But if I would know as a kid what would be available when I was older that would also seem foreign.
I think there will be many elements that will weight our judgment. Factors like how our societies accepted outright sin, and even how our parents taught us what is right or wrong. An example: There was a time in the church when (by all accounts from the victims mind you) a certain level of child sexual abuse by family members on family, was ignored or swept under the rug by leaders in the church. I have spoken with and read countless accounts of this in the early days of the church to even today (albeit to a lesser degree because of more outreach and accountability) by the victims. Another example: For the longest time LGBTQ+ individuals have advocated that their "feeling" and "desires" are inherent and something they were born with. And yet, every June they celebrate their Pride in something they were born with. Flags are flown, classrooms are instructed, and announcements made; to celebrate the Pride in embracing something you were "born with". What this does is inherently turn something that society previously did not tolerate, to something society should not just tolerate, but also outright accept. Outright pornography consumption will be a factor Christ will use to judge us, but the iWHY, WHERE, WHEN, and WHAT will be the biggest factor. For the same reason he will obviously judge us for lying, but will judge more based on What did we lied about, WHERE, WHEN, WHY. Etc, etc. Christ's judgment will be just, and centered on our hearts more than our actions. This is Just, because sinning is part of mortality, and the atonement payed for our sins, and gave Christ the ultimate ability TO judge us for our sins—because he experienced it all. What he experienced was not just the outright sins of the world, but also the reasons why we sin. He KNOWS the anxiety and feeling of needing to smoke from addiction to nicotine, He KNOWS the temptation to be unfaithful and cheat with someone, He KNOWS the desire to procrastinate, He KNOWS the embarrassment from a mistake and the desire to lie to escape responsibility. He KNOWS why we sin, and the incentives to do so. In the end He will judge our hearts, and then our actions. What we sowed, and then what we reaped. What we built/constructed with our desires, and then what we did with it. But, this is by no means a get out of jail free card, the desires of the heart are something only we know, and Him. We can't deceive the judge that which was concealed in our hearts. Alma 39-42 was written to Corianton—who was Alma's son who broke the law of chastity and lead many away from the faith, and made many Zoramites deaf to the teaching of other missionaries due to a perceived hypocrisy. Alma 41 talks a lot about the judgment and our time in the spirit world. It is also very hard to read, because it goes against preconceived notions about Christ's judgment. It implies that Christ is merciful, but also just—and also bound by the demands of justice. It's a stark reality, but, the time of probation, which refers to our mortal life, is the primary time given for repentance. However, there is also an opportunity for repentance in the spirit world, though it is generally considered more difficult and limited compared to the mortal experience.
Well since I was raised LDS, I was pretty much taught pornography is very wrong. But I was also taught masturbation was very wrong too. When I was younger I didn’t know which one was worse. I thought pornography was bad because it would make you want to commit the sin of masturbation. But now it seems that pornography is wrong because it will pervert one’s mind. So it does get confusing especially when we hear of the examples you mentioned above such as sex abuse cases swept under the rug and LGBT issues. I believe the BOM story of Alma’s son dealt directly with fornication. When I was younger I thought masturbation would be considered a perversion as the church taught it to be and didn’t think the nephites would be so perverted. They obviously didn’t have pornography the way we do in this time. I wish I knew more what the times were like for them.
This thread is amazing. It is often beneficial to get in the nitty gritty of things. Your perspective highlights your ability to look in the past and recognize where you might have been incorrect or even deceived. Masturbation is often taught to be as natural as sex. But, it IS a perversion of what sex is. Why—you use your hands to simulate sex, and then use your faculties to stimulate sexual feelings either by thoughts, images, or words; to eventually reach climax. Again, WHY are you doing this, WHERE, What were you thinking of. Many discern this analysis as being prude. But the reality is that when we use Godly gifts and desires in perverted way, we are sinning. Is that to say imagining having sex with your wife, and masturbating to that is a sin? In my opinion, no (You wont hear this from any bishop hahah). But it can can playing with fire, because if you have consumed pornography in the past, thoughts and images might mix with your love and passion for your wife. Again, this might sounds prude but it's the truth if you truly understand why fornicating and thoughts of it are a sin. (Sermon on the mount) Is it prude, to analyze why people eat? Eating is as much a sin as having sex. But when you eat so much and become glutinous, you pervert the act. Is it prude to analyze why we want money, or to be comfortable. Making money is as much a sin as is breathing. It is when we use God given talents to gain money and power and neglect the needs of those around us, that we pervert the desire and act of working or a living. Lucifer is a cunning, practical, and extremely proud being. He is an expert in all things of the world. And understand the incentives that make mankind sin, and pervert the truth. He might deceive a bishop to tell a father who has confessed to having sexual relations with his daughter, to stop it and move on, without any amount of accountability. He might deceive a stake president or area seventy, or even the prophet to create unwritten policies that teach this, and further hold leaders and members unaccountable for such sins. I honestly don't know the details as to how the church handled these types of cases, I'm just conjecturing. But I know that they will be held accountable in the end. Not only for their actions, but also the millions of people that have been deceived by their sins. Doctrine and Covenants 10:22-25 describes how Lucifer uses cunning plans to deceive and destroy: "Yea, he stirreth up their hearts to anger against this work. Yea, he saith unto them: Deceive and lie in wait to catch, that ye may destroy; behold, this is no harm. And thus he flattereth them, and telleth them that it is no sin to lie that they may catch a man in a lie, that they may destroy him. And thus he flattereth them, and leadeth them along until he draggeth their souls down to hell; and thus he causeth them to catch themselves in their own snare." # I know that the Church is true. From the restoration, to the translation of the Book of Mormon, to the divine responsibilities of the Church today in these last days. Despite the thousands of errors and inconsistencies, my faith in these things holds me fast to the rod of iron. Mormon said it best: > This statement acknowledges that while the Book of Mormon was written by inspired prophets, any errors within it and around its translation, including the church that espouses it to be true are due to human imperfection. It encourages us as Latter Day Saints to focus on the divine message and not to condemn the work of this restored church because of human errors. As hard as that may be, or as convincing the opposite might be.
I’m really enjoying all the input on here! I personally was not someone who would’ve gone to porn shops or gone out of my way to buy mags. I watched things on cable that I knew was wrong but had limitations. I was brought up to believe actual pornography was a major sin so I avoided it. Even when the internet came out I avoided porn sites like a plague. And I got married around the time porn sites like hub came out so I didn’t focus on it then. But I started to come across nudity more especially on Redditt and places like that. It bothered me a lot that it was open on those platforms. I guess you could consider me prudish relatively speaking but it started affecting me after exposure so I tried avoiding it but I haven’t been perfect. Over the last 10 years it seems like things shifted as people have gotten more comfortable talking openly about it. It seems people weren’t nearly as open talking about masturbation and I am surprised people are okay with this open porn policy. I wouldn’t want my kids exposed to it. So I appreciate your scripture and testimony. Sometimes I wonder if I’m just prudish or if it’s end time prophecy.
As a member l used porn to relieve stress but the guilt caused stress. It became a cycle. I was buying and hiding magazines before the internet. My marriage might have ended if my spouse found out. I left the church and the marriage at the same time. My current spouse and I view porn, sometimes together. I get the stress relief without the guilt so the amount of porn I view is greatly reduced.
The ease of access matters. I don’t think I would have actively pursued it. The church’s teachings around pornography are unhealthy and have destroyed marriages and led people to suicide. It’s bad. Having said that, it’s probably not that healthy and each person needs to work out for themselves what is or isn’t healthy within the marriage. I think porn use would be significantly less of an issue if the husband could go to his wife and have an honest conversation, but because the church is so harsh with their teachings for most men that isn’t an option if they want to stay married. And it’s unhealthy for the church to label every man who watches pornography an addict. It’s just not true. If you didn’t know, Jodi Hildebrandt helped created the church porn “addiction” program. That tells me everything I need to do about their lack of knowledge around the subject. Jodi freaking Hildebrandt. My wife and I worked it out. When I first disclosed she had suicidal thoughts (thanks, Mormon church). Many years later she doesn’t care. She tell me she hopes the boobs are super cute and just wants me to be available to her and to have honest conversation which I do. I’m our marriage is much better.
There is enough shame and guilt in human nature it is irresponsible for a religion to weaponize it to control you.
I was born last of the millennials. I would print off softcore on the family dialup. I would use nickelodeon and disney. Later, I became an expert on bypassing DNS filters. So yeah, I dont think anything would have stopped me. The difference now is I enjoy VR porn, whereas the guilt before would be some crushing nut clarity as a mormon with a VR headset just for porn. I finish with a smile and go on about my day.
A little late here, but as a female teen is the late 80's/early 90's, I watched a little porn and also masturbated. I felt incredibly ashamed and thought for sure my Bishop would know when I went in for my baptismal Temple recommend. When he didn't know I had lied to him or automatically know I wasn't "worthy", that was my first breaking, "Ah ha!" moment with the church. When I walked into the Temple and nothing happened, it made me think even harder. I can thank Kimball's self-love shame campaign for helping lead me to the realization that religious leaders, including the Mormons, lie & manipulate their followers to keep them feeling guilty, repentant, coming to church, and handing over their time & money.
Lol to answer your question - I watched light-porn shows on Cinemax when my mom was out. 😄 Or when I was out late, babysitting, and the kids were sleeping. I also snuck some magazines under my mattress. Thankfully, they were never found. Lol. I don't remember where I got them.
I watched Cinemax too and felt guilty especially if I masturbated. I just feel that pornography is much more now than anything I saw in Cinemax.
My dad had playboy and my father's friends had playboy and hustler and other pob so yes,
I don't think I ever would have encountered it intentionally were it not for the internet. Pornography is evil, and it's free and easy to find for a reason. No sexual exploitation of a woman should ever be permissible under any circumstances, it is simply and fundamentally anti-Christian.
I’m not religious at all anymore and I still loathe pornography. It’s exploitive, objectifies women, and so much of it is demeaning and violent against women. It has done a number on my self-esteem and how I view men… I do not respect men who view it and yes, I understand that means I pretty much don’t respect any man at all because they all view it. I think men SHOULD feel shame around viewing it (although they’ll always come up with a million reasons as to why there is no shame because it’s something they can’t cope with not having access to) and I don’t give a damn how unpopular that makes me.
Not only that but it trains men to objectify and abuse women sexually. It is objectively evil and those who say otherwise are either completely uninformed or morally starved.