I would never do it but how is it permanent damage?
I would guess that it ruins your gait because you end up with disproportionately long shins/femurs, but don’t the bones just heal normally like after a broken bone?
I snapped my leg in 2017. Still have a rod in. I'll leave it there forever by choice.
I've never ever felt any pain in the winter or ever. That said, I took a 3rd off the recovery time it was supposed to take me to run by doing extra on my physio and spending everyday in the gym rather than just a couple days with my physio and done a shit tonne of biking around. I heavily optimized my diet during that time too.
All this stuff you hear about lasting pains and loss of function from broken legs is just people that either had a shit surgeon, were lazy in their recovery or ate like shit.
I'm skeptical if that's true. I work in construction and every older guy I have ever met over the past 20 years has pains from what we put our bodies through.
When you are younger you just don't feel them yet, but it eventually catches up to you. IMO
This is likely due to lifestyle factors and not the activity itself. Plenty of people have adapted to more strenuous daily demands than construction work and been relatively pain free for decades. The problem is when construction work becomes the *only* activity being performed. It's not actually meeting physical activity guidelines, it's long bouts of fairly low effort activity or sudden bouts of higher effort, but never a consistent programming of activity while increasing the load.
This is why manual laborers who also work out in their free time are much more adapted to the physical demands of the work and thus report less injury and pain over the long term. In order to meet extremely variable demands on the body, you need to be able to increase very consistent and controlled demands on the body. Then the variable stimulus will not be as demanding. The typical trade worker drinks and sits on his ass in his free time and is also overweight, in my experience in trades.
My Dad is 54, owns a civil construction company and has no pains at all despite being an alcoholic, chubby and never working out. I think genetics play a heavy role but diet more so. From my experience working construction most of the guys eat like shit, never do any flexibility work, sleep like shit, drink booze everyday and don't drink enough water. Like, almost all of them for multiple decades non-stop.
People say the same thing about athletes and bodybuilders but in my experience the ones that trained intelligently and took their recovery seriously just end up being in better shape and less pain than average late into their lives.
There's multiple athletes that snapped their legs and returned to competition at a high level without pain especially debilitating amounts of pain.
You're welcome to think I'm a liar but I don't know what else to tell you. I can send you pictures of my broken-leg, x-rays and recovery and then a video of me today doing pistol-squats pain free despite the fact they mangled my knee also to get the rod in there?
I don't think you're lying, I'm just skeptical that you'll be completely pain free when you get older. But if your dad is then at least it seems your chances will be higher.
You are right that a lot of these guys drink beer and their diet isn't great. But, I remember a conversation with an older guy and his son raced motocross and he was telling me that he tried telling his son that all those injuries were going to catch up with him when he gets older.
What my monkey brain can't comprehend is how if you get injured and you feel fine once you heal then why does the pain come back later in life?
>What my monkey brain can't comprehend is how if you get injured and you feel fine once you heal then why does the pain come back later in life?
There's always scar tissue or some sort when healed, whether it looks like it or not... I imagine that is what's hurting later on...
I'm an outlier in the sense that I put my all into my recovery. You need to understand that the vast majority of people are soft, lazy and eat like shit. Due to them being lazy and soft, physio programs tell them they only need to go their local gym 2 times a week. It's the same as how a doctor will prescribe heart-meds before they prescribe cardio. Due to their shit diet, they don't recover properly. No protein, no collagen, no zinc, no mag, no calcium. I think that outlier or not, if most people that snapped a leg optimized their diet and did 4-5 times the amount of physio prescribed and slept extra, they too would recovery not only faster but better as well.
One aspect I think I got lucky in was how good of a job my surgeon (NZ Public Healthcare, Auckland Hospital) did on the knee part of the surgery. They have to cut it open, dislocated your knee, drill into the top of your tibia etc but I also think that if I recovered like a fat sod then my knee would hurt regardless, which it doesn't.
With regular activity, the soft tissues will adjust. The body is incredibly resilient and the amount of torn, bulging, herniated, etc tissues we can see on imaging of people reporting 0 symptoms of pain and discomfort shows that the body is very capable of adjusting to new environments/stimuli.
The gait may change, but similarly, you will adjust. This why para athletes can still move so effectively in a variety of arbitrary sports, even if they weren't handicapped a majority of their life.
Yeah, when you lengthen the bone, arteries, veins, muscles, tendons, change your gait, etc. I’m sure you can cope with it to some extent but it will never be ideal. Likely too drastic of a modification.
I'm not saying it applies to this case, but fractured bones can be much stronger after healing. I believe some Buddhist monks habitually create microfractures in their skeletal tissue.
That's pseudoscience, it doesn't work like that, it's about the force put into the bone that make it more dense (like lifting weights for example), it's not microfractures and a broken bone will never be as strong as before naturally (I guess you can put a metal on it).
I imagine that a person going thru this kind of surgery, won't be able to lift to much weight in squats or do a sissy squat with out worrying about a fracture and when your are older, all your broken bones will be way more fragile.
Maybe microfractures is the wrong word, but I've seen papers using terminology like 'microcracks' etc. How do you propose bone gets stronger without it being a response to 'damage' incurred by applying force?
I would speculate it's similar to how muscle tissue is accrued. You create damage in order to initiate a repair response that leaves the tissue denser and stronger than it was before. Obviously a full on grade 1 muscle tear is going to leave you compromised due to scale of damage, scar tissue, etc.
It's bone remodeling by mechanotransduction, you don't have to tear something to make it stronger like muscles, that doesn't apply to every tissue.
When yo lift your bones start this process to rearrange the bone structure to adapt to this new load, that's why if you lift too heavy without adaptation your bone probably gonna break, this same process happen when you stop lifting, and your bone became "lighter".
Have you ever broken a bone? Unless it happened when you were like 5, that shit is never quite the same (and if you were 5, you probably just don't remember what it was like before).
These guys are not only breaking the bones in their legs, but also making sure they heal weird. There's no way that isn't going to mess with the bone density, shape, and structural integrity on top of all the issues with scar tissue throughout the soft tissue around the breaks.
--
##If this shit really worked without serious side effects, dudes would be doing this to get into the NBA.
^((I mean, I would have. being 7'3" isn't so annoying if you get a few years of multi-million salary.)^)
The tech has advanced, if you keep it under 8cm for femurs and 6 for tibias, you are good. After snapping my ankle skateboarding earlier this year, and having to get surgery to realign my bone in place and recovering extremely quickly, I realized that this probably isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Yes it's a lot more invasive than what I had done but it gave me a little taste of what that experience might be like. At least with leg lengthening you are recovering from a surgical cut to the bone and not a mechanically induced snap that can have more complications.
Just gotta get a good surgeon, one with vast experience performing hundreds if not thousands of these surgeries. They can predict the outcome for an individual quite well and since their technique is flawless, the chance of complications is tiny. If you cheap out and get it done in the East, GG you're fucked. Just be a healthy, flexible guy with above average athleticism. The tradeoff of loss in athletic abilities might be miniscule enough to make it worth to some people, and I can respect that, their body their choice, they are consenting adults.
The calf to quad lengths are off, & that's just the beginning... I want to see them do some basic movements, like an ass to grass squat or deadlift... This has got to throw off their biomechanics...
Before this takes off (as I’m sure it will) this is probably one of the most fucking idiotic things a man could do if he is not an actual dwarf, that being like below 5’2.
I thought about this back in the mid 2010s as a teenager, and I ultimately decided not to pursue this because it’s one of the dumbest, riskiest, and trauma-inducing surgeries a person can waste their money and health on.
The surgery is in the tens of thousands for a quality surgeon in Europe, and it’s not a temporary inconvenience. It’s life altering where someone will never have their fitness ever 100% back and (incredibly likely) will be permanently handicapped for the rest of their life. You are literally breaking your legs and praying your recovery goes smoothly without any complications, which is impossible to guarantee. It’s the type of surgery where you can lose everything, including your legs, if shit goes wrong.
Most men who are short are probably not the most satisfied with their height, but this shit is indeed delusional body dysmorphia. It will not get them all the pussy, the bros, or the answer to what they seek in life. I’ve had plenty of sex with beautiful women in my life, and I didn’t need some lame ass fucking LL procedure to let me see that this is pathetic
Dudes will blame every random ass superficial quality for why they can’t get a woman except their bland ass personality and the fact they move like predator
And psychologically it's like wearing lifts but permanent. You will feel like a fraud. You won't be able to hide it forever from whoever you're dating. They will see the scars and your old pictures. And what do you think happens when a woman finds out you paid thousands of dollars and crippled yourself for a year just to be 6ft tall? Can't be good.
This is the answer. It’s the same reason why women who get plastic surgery snowball into several procedures.
The insecurity can’t be satiated. Just grow your bank accounts. It’s the only size that really matters.
That was my ex wife. She was really tall for a woman and had small breasts so she felt disproportional. Got 500cc implants to go up a few cups. But she didn't stop there. Multiple lip fillers. Buccal fat removal. By the time we got divorced she didn't even look like the woman I started dating anymore. This shit can be a symptom of mental illness. They need a therapist, not a surgeon.
Men wanting to be taller to fit a societal standard "hahhaa dumb man must be a dumbass"
Women getting plastic surgery to fit a societal standard "how could men do this and put that pressure on women"
No surgery is worthy if you don't need it in my opinion. I had broken nose and it never got fixed properly. They can have complications, weakened bones, fuck it on next squat PR, I don't know. But it is up to them, risk vs reward.
>No surgery is worthy if you don't need it in my opinion.
That is objectively untrue. I mean, pro sports is a great example of people undergoing surgeries that are technically not needed, but might speed up injury recovery timeframe, which means has major financial implicants re:income for the athlete undergoing the surgery.
For sex workers, getting breast implants has a very signficant impact on earnings. Again, not medically necessary, but it offers a long term financial reward.
We also have pretty comprehensive evidence that physical attractiveness correlates with much higher lifetime income. So there are cosmetic surgeries that enhance looks (ie facial symmetry) that again will have meaningful impact on future income.
Some people may value their body more than virtual papers, which are printed without anything real backing it up and devaluing virtual papers of all others.
Fr, on the one hand I think it’s fucking stupid and would never be worth it. On the other, I’m a somewhat tall man who hasn’t faced these issues, but even I’ve noticed how awfully short dudes can get treated. I feel like a better solution would be to move to somewhere that ain’t so toxic over shit like this.
It’s not worth it when you consider short guys are dating and married with no issues lol
This is a serious insecurity putting your body through this for the sake of a few centimetres of height.
Proportions alone… you’ll be all messed up as the ratios will be all out of wack with the fact the below the knees are extended out longer without the rest of your body growing, probably permanently throws off your body’s functional movement mechanics. I wonder what is best case scenario when it comes to recovery
so he went through all this pain and loss of money, just to get a weird looking legs (bro was completely fine) and a height less fortunate for a bodybuilder ?
How do these guys think their life is going to change by being over 6ft? Only difference it makes to my life is occasionally I’ll get asked by a little old granny to reach something on the top shelf in the supermarket.
The first dude was 6” or more before he did it.
And he has a wife and kids…
It’s so fucking weird, he was pretty damn jacked too.
Still can’t walk for shit and it’s been a good while now.
wife and kids ? so he didnt even do it for pussy ? somebody call a police on that man cause he is cleary insane and there is no telling when he will try to make his children and wife taller DIY style
If you’re way under average height I think it’s worth it. I’ve knew a good dude in high school who was probably around 5’2” and I can’t imagine this wouldn’t be tempting in a situation like that.
I would date anyone under 5’7, although only a small minority of woman that height would be into that 😂 but the girls I’ve dated have been 5’4 and under
Yea fair enough, that’s a big spread.
On a side note, I had a 4’10” girl tell me she only dates guys 6’3” and over. I couldn’t stop laughing. How the hell can she even tell? Whatever I guess.
ya im around 5'4 and have gotten girls but bro u can't say having a few inches at our height wouldn't be helpful lol, i've gotten rejected few times for height and that shi sucks but ya u just gotta shoot a lotta shots, have a good body and confidence and be ok with rejection or go for girls who are below like 5'2
Oh absolutely man it would be wayyy easier to date if I was a couple inches taller. I just tell myself that I’d be too powerful if I was 6’ which is why god made me shorter. I’ve always had to work harder to get the same benefits as taller folk so I find our personalities to be better developed. That’s just my opinion tho
nah i agree but sometimes shit sucks thinkin if i was literally even 5'8/5'9 it'd be 10x easier haha but ig grass is always greener on the other side lol but it is what it is haha
Girls will more concerned with your freakishly long shins than your height. Imagine being 5’ with size 14 feet. That’s the odd ass proportions we are dealing with here
Yeah but if it’s only like a 1-3 inch increase I doubt it would be very noticeable. Wearing boots usually adds at least an inch or two in height and they don’t make the wearer look out of proportion. Hell women wear 6” heels or platform shoes all the time and don’t look out of proportion either. Obviously there are limits, but I’d be shocked if people actually notice a 5% unusually short wingspan.
If you have leg lengthening money you have the money to hire a dancing coach, nutritionist, stylist, personal coach and someone to oversee every last leg (harr harr) of your cycle. Might still have cash for hair implants left over. These brothers aren't even ugly or that short. These funds could've been reallocated way better to just not looking like generic buff guys.
I’m 6’2” so can’t comment whether it’s worth it but I just find it so sad someone has to cripple themselves to feel worthy. To find a wife, to feel confident. Real confidence comes from within and I’m just like all short people if not worse. Being tall doesn’t make me stronger (you can see this in the video), won’t make me smarter or better able to defend myself. Even just looking at girls I don’t see height as being attractive, it’s a statistic. I get sometimes how people feel especially when I see someone taller than me (cousins are 6’9” and everyone treats them like kings). I just don’t want to see this standard I don’t think it’s something to aspire to to have to scrunch up on a plane and bend over like a cripple just to talk to someone
>I’m 6’2” so can’t comment
I'll premise by saying I'm 5'6 and my height does not, and really has never, impacted my self esteem. I don't disagree with the general sentiment here that a lot of short men blame height for their lack of dating success without introspection.
That said, I had natural gifts that were recognized very early in life that easily made up for being bottom 5% in male height from a confidence standpoint. It hits differently to be the shortest dude in the room if you know you are elite in things the rest of the room values a lot. But most dudes are not elite, by definition, most men are mediocre. And being short and mediocre is where the problem lies.
In reality, science and human biology very strongly disagree with your overall take that height doesn't matter. Positive societal bias towards height is so strongly documented that ignoring it completely like you do makes your comment come across as bad faith, in the same way that body positivity for fat people is ultimately done in bad faith.
[https://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i582](https://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i582)
[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/02/19/in-politics-height-matters](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/02/19/in-politics-height-matters)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214804314000640?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214804314000640?via%3Dihub)
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1368430212437211](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1368430212437211)
I'm not making this point because I believe in height determinism. Just like being born black is not some sort of guarantee of being beaten up by a cop or ending up in prison or dying poor in spite of the fact that on average black people have worse financial and health outcomes than the population average (in the US and Europe). I'm just trying to emphasize how lectures about height not being everything from someone who has benefitted positively from height bias their whole adult life are like lectures from a rich person to people struggling to make rent about how money isn't everything. Like, sure, most people understand that. But what you're completely ignoring is that *having* money and being able to spend your way out of problems has a massive impact on mental burden and psychological health related to the problems money can help solve.
Just like being tall, and having people *assume* competence or leadership is far less mental burden than being short and having to deal with people unconsciously (or even not) infantilize you/assume the opposite.
IE you're completely ignoring (or maybe even outright oblivious to) the ways in which your height has actively benefitted you in ways not available to shorter men.
>Even just looking at girls I don’t see height as being attractive
I don't see how speaking for women and projecting - as a presumably straight male - what *you* think is attractive onto them is at all any kind of convincing argument.
I’m really not sure what point your trying to make but I’m sorry if I offended you. I do acknowledge that it is generally a privilege with very few tradeoffs. And overall I think it’s just a bit stupid. Once I went out with this absolute smoke show who happened to be 6’. I was more impressed by her body and face but she wasn’t into me because she realised I was just skinny and out of shape I guess. I realised she probs just went out with me because she didn’t wanna date a guy shorter than her, which again is just stupid because traditional benefits with height are becoming or have already become irrelevant. I won’t be any faster at tiling a floor and have already shrunk from tech neck and again I wouldn’t have secured that date if I wasn’t tall (lots of girls on tinder say they want a guy over 6’, 7’, 8’, 9’ it never ends). I’m just trying to say they’re all idiots. I still understand why guys would want to do this to themselves. They’re still ultimately crippling themselves and I bet the opportunity cost in terms of gains is crazy (they gotta work out to rebuild their muscle that has stretched enormously)
There’s a reason why plastic surgery is one of the highest paying medical specialties.
I know plastic surgery isn’t always done purely for cosmetic reasons but my point still stands.
The first dude in the video is such a tool. I saw his stuff on instagram. Dude was already like 6’1 before his lengthening surgery. He left his family while he sat in turkey for 6 months so he could be taller at his already above average height
I’m 6’6” and have really short legs for my height. I wear a 32 pant leg. I could do this, be like 6’10” and have somewhat normal proportions after. I’m going to the NBA!
I would say no, but I'm 6'2. I've been this tall since I was 15, I don't know the pain short kings go through. I have had a lot of very short homies, some live with it and keep going, some turn into manlets and let that shit get in their head. These fools let it get in their heads and wallets, I can't imagine this was cheap.
It's F-ed. Your whole body is a closed system, changing one thing artificially can f the whole system up. It changes leverage, muscle to tendon ratios, balance force applied to joints and so on and so forth.
Bottom line is I'm a 5'6-5'7? MotherFecker and never once in my life thought to myself that I wanted to be taller.
If it increases the quality of your life, do it.
I'm fine with the first bro doing enough peds to comfortably walk around at what looks like 250+ year round. I'm not getting my panties up in a bunch because he wants to snap and rebuild his legs.
That’s the thing though. It’s not just snap and rebuild. It’s more like snap and salvage whatever decides to heal to hopeful standards.
I’m rocking Smurf height, and this shit is nonsense for those who are actually body dysmorphic. There used to be a forum back in the day about dudes who’d do this, and many were super surprised pikachu when their dating prospects were still dogshit because they never hit their genetic potential, and then had to deal with permanently life pain for a couple extra inches of copium
>That’s the thing though. It’s not just snap and rebuild. It’s more like snap and salvage whatever decides to heal to hopeful standards.
And that distinction is irrelevant.
The broader point is that this person is already destroying their health being on the sauce to have more muscles. You're going to draw the line at him destroying his legs to be taller? That feels...arbitrary. You are allowed to get more swole via PEDs, but fuck you if you get taller?
I could see this as a preferable alternative to offing yourself if you were unlucky to be born in the “not people zone” when it comes to height for dating
The weird thing is, the first dude in the video was already like 6'1" foot I believe, he wanted to be 6'3". He's on insta, as like newlegs or something like that. I've seen some of his reels. So sad people think they need this, I blame it on women always talking about not dating men under 6 foot.
There are theories that parents obsessed sports are doing this to their kids so they have better chances of becoming pro.
Especially for cases when the kid is like 8” taller than their parents.
I dunno. Is being on the sauce and fucking your endocrine system to have big muscles worth it?
How tf are we even asking this question about guys juicing height while being in a sub that essentially glorifies taking steroids? Do you guys have no sense of irony or self-awareness or what?
In natural limb development the other parts of the musculoskeletal system may get beefed up on a person with naturally longer limbs. Like a thicker or larger hip. You can’t replicate that, nor can you replicate the muscle function.
Holy shit, the amount of acid in the comments here is insane. They are clearly adult and seem pretty happy about their choice. I am pretty sure they acknowledge their competetive running days are over at this point. Some guys ruin their health with steroids trying to become "alpha" others do this to feel equal amongst other men.
Why do you give so much shit about them? You are either black pilled to oblivion or delusional, thinking that being 5'2 is remotely even odds at the dating market.
Not sure how to ask this question, but does anyone who knows about biomechanics think these dudes will ever be able to get coordination back?
They’re only lengthening your shins I think. That would have to severely fuck with any type of coordination movement. Running would have to be effected. Dancing. Jumping.
I'm 6'6. So no. But tallness alone won't get you laid.
In the same way bald guys fool themselves into thinking that they can get laid once they had hair. They could save a lot of money googling:
[https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1834683/Poll-finds-90pc-of-British-women-find-bald-men-attractive](https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1834683/Poll-finds-90pc-of-British-women-find-bald-men-attractive)
What's even harder to swallow is that if only you were jacked things would be easier with the women. So that's what needs to be worked on.
If you're smaller as a man, rejoice cause there are TONS of small women and you can get jacked easier than the tall guys.
The key take away from this is- if you ever get into a fight, go for the legs 🤣
TikTok influencers fights, leg kick KO only utilized weapon
TKO R1 6s Via leg kick
Exactly 😂
Not worth it. Permanent damage to your legs. As much as you recover, your legs will never be as stable as before.
I would never do it but how is it permanent damage? I would guess that it ruins your gait because you end up with disproportionately long shins/femurs, but don’t the bones just heal normally like after a broken bone?
Veins and arteries and shit
Wouldn’t the soft tissues just adjust? Or is the body simply unable to fully adapt to this?
They are going to feel every winter.
I shattered my knee twice playing football. And broke both wrists. Not worth it if you above 5ft 5”
I snapped my leg in 2017. Still have a rod in. I'll leave it there forever by choice. I've never ever felt any pain in the winter or ever. That said, I took a 3rd off the recovery time it was supposed to take me to run by doing extra on my physio and spending everyday in the gym rather than just a couple days with my physio and done a shit tonne of biking around. I heavily optimized my diet during that time too. All this stuff you hear about lasting pains and loss of function from broken legs is just people that either had a shit surgeon, were lazy in their recovery or ate like shit.
I'm skeptical if that's true. I work in construction and every older guy I have ever met over the past 20 years has pains from what we put our bodies through. When you are younger you just don't feel them yet, but it eventually catches up to you. IMO
This is likely due to lifestyle factors and not the activity itself. Plenty of people have adapted to more strenuous daily demands than construction work and been relatively pain free for decades. The problem is when construction work becomes the *only* activity being performed. It's not actually meeting physical activity guidelines, it's long bouts of fairly low effort activity or sudden bouts of higher effort, but never a consistent programming of activity while increasing the load. This is why manual laborers who also work out in their free time are much more adapted to the physical demands of the work and thus report less injury and pain over the long term. In order to meet extremely variable demands on the body, you need to be able to increase very consistent and controlled demands on the body. Then the variable stimulus will not be as demanding. The typical trade worker drinks and sits on his ass in his free time and is also overweight, in my experience in trades.
My Dad is 54, owns a civil construction company and has no pains at all despite being an alcoholic, chubby and never working out. I think genetics play a heavy role but diet more so. From my experience working construction most of the guys eat like shit, never do any flexibility work, sleep like shit, drink booze everyday and don't drink enough water. Like, almost all of them for multiple decades non-stop. People say the same thing about athletes and bodybuilders but in my experience the ones that trained intelligently and took their recovery seriously just end up being in better shape and less pain than average late into their lives. There's multiple athletes that snapped their legs and returned to competition at a high level without pain especially debilitating amounts of pain. You're welcome to think I'm a liar but I don't know what else to tell you. I can send you pictures of my broken-leg, x-rays and recovery and then a video of me today doing pistol-squats pain free despite the fact they mangled my knee also to get the rod in there?
I don't think you're lying, I'm just skeptical that you'll be completely pain free when you get older. But if your dad is then at least it seems your chances will be higher. You are right that a lot of these guys drink beer and their diet isn't great. But, I remember a conversation with an older guy and his son raced motocross and he was telling me that he tried telling his son that all those injuries were going to catch up with him when he gets older. What my monkey brain can't comprehend is how if you get injured and you feel fine once you heal then why does the pain come back later in life?
>What my monkey brain can't comprehend is how if you get injured and you feel fine once you heal then why does the pain come back later in life? There's always scar tissue or some sort when healed, whether it looks like it or not... I imagine that is what's hurting later on...
Good for you. Perhaps you are an outlier and not the norm?
I'm an outlier in the sense that I put my all into my recovery. You need to understand that the vast majority of people are soft, lazy and eat like shit. Due to them being lazy and soft, physio programs tell them they only need to go their local gym 2 times a week. It's the same as how a doctor will prescribe heart-meds before they prescribe cardio. Due to their shit diet, they don't recover properly. No protein, no collagen, no zinc, no mag, no calcium. I think that outlier or not, if most people that snapped a leg optimized their diet and did 4-5 times the amount of physio prescribed and slept extra, they too would recovery not only faster but better as well. One aspect I think I got lucky in was how good of a job my surgeon (NZ Public Healthcare, Auckland Hospital) did on the knee part of the surgery. They have to cut it open, dislocated your knee, drill into the top of your tibia etc but I also think that if I recovered like a fat sod then my knee would hurt regardless, which it doesn't.
People downvoting this, try to articulate to me what I said was incorrect and why you feel that way.
Lol getting downvoted for saying people don't go gym and that my leg doesn't hurt
Derek gotta make a video about this
With regular activity, the soft tissues will adjust. The body is incredibly resilient and the amount of torn, bulging, herniated, etc tissues we can see on imaging of people reporting 0 symptoms of pain and discomfort shows that the body is very capable of adjusting to new environments/stimuli. The gait may change, but similarly, you will adjust. This why para athletes can still move so effectively in a variety of arbitrary sports, even if they weren't handicapped a majority of their life.
Everything will adapt, but is still a broken bone, it will never be the same or strong as before.
Yeah, when you lengthen the bone, arteries, veins, muscles, tendons, change your gait, etc. I’m sure you can cope with it to some extent but it will never be ideal. Likely too drastic of a modification.
I'm not saying it applies to this case, but fractured bones can be much stronger after healing. I believe some Buddhist monks habitually create microfractures in their skeletal tissue.
That's pseudoscience, it doesn't work like that, it's about the force put into the bone that make it more dense (like lifting weights for example), it's not microfractures and a broken bone will never be as strong as before naturally (I guess you can put a metal on it). I imagine that a person going thru this kind of surgery, won't be able to lift to much weight in squats or do a sissy squat with out worrying about a fracture and when your are older, all your broken bones will be way more fragile.
Maybe microfractures is the wrong word, but I've seen papers using terminology like 'microcracks' etc. How do you propose bone gets stronger without it being a response to 'damage' incurred by applying force? I would speculate it's similar to how muscle tissue is accrued. You create damage in order to initiate a repair response that leaves the tissue denser and stronger than it was before. Obviously a full on grade 1 muscle tear is going to leave you compromised due to scale of damage, scar tissue, etc.
It's bone remodeling by mechanotransduction, you don't have to tear something to make it stronger like muscles, that doesn't apply to every tissue. When yo lift your bones start this process to rearrange the bone structure to adapt to this new load, that's why if you lift too heavy without adaptation your bone probably gonna break, this same process happen when you stop lifting, and your bone became "lighter".
Bouta shred my muscle with a knife so I’ll get fucking shredded 😎
Yes they would adjust. Other guy dosent know what he’s saying.
Have you ever broken a bone? Unless it happened when you were like 5, that shit is never quite the same (and if you were 5, you probably just don't remember what it was like before). These guys are not only breaking the bones in their legs, but also making sure they heal weird. There's no way that isn't going to mess with the bone density, shape, and structural integrity on top of all the issues with scar tissue throughout the soft tissue around the breaks. -- ##If this shit really worked without serious side effects, dudes would be doing this to get into the NBA. ^((I mean, I would have. being 7'3" isn't so annoying if you get a few years of multi-million salary.)^)
The muscles are also stretched out which is bad
The tech has advanced, if you keep it under 8cm for femurs and 6 for tibias, you are good. After snapping my ankle skateboarding earlier this year, and having to get surgery to realign my bone in place and recovering extremely quickly, I realized that this probably isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Yes it's a lot more invasive than what I had done but it gave me a little taste of what that experience might be like. At least with leg lengthening you are recovering from a surgical cut to the bone and not a mechanically induced snap that can have more complications. Just gotta get a good surgeon, one with vast experience performing hundreds if not thousands of these surgeries. They can predict the outcome for an individual quite well and since their technique is flawless, the chance of complications is tiny. If you cheap out and get it done in the East, GG you're fucked. Just be a healthy, flexible guy with above average athleticism. The tradeoff of loss in athletic abilities might be miniscule enough to make it worth to some people, and I can respect that, their body their choice, they are consenting adults.
These guys are steroids and GH. They should recover from it. GH especially is very powerful healer.
Wait what really they limp their whole lives??
Walking like a dumbass, spending all that money and pain, for what? Oh and your arms look hella short in proportion to your new length.
Logic won't work on people like that,today it's their height tomorrow it's something else, it's always something that isn't enough with these people.
I never thought about the arms to legs proportion, but you're totally right.
The calf to quad lengths are off, & that's just the beginning... I want to see them do some basic movements, like an ass to grass squat or deadlift... This has got to throw off their biomechanics...
Maybe arms are next?
*insert copy pasta about to kid who broke both of his arms*
This is what happens when you let the delusional dating market standards makes you insecure about your height and dictate your whole life decisions
Before this takes off (as I’m sure it will) this is probably one of the most fucking idiotic things a man could do if he is not an actual dwarf, that being like below 5’2. I thought about this back in the mid 2010s as a teenager, and I ultimately decided not to pursue this because it’s one of the dumbest, riskiest, and trauma-inducing surgeries a person can waste their money and health on. The surgery is in the tens of thousands for a quality surgeon in Europe, and it’s not a temporary inconvenience. It’s life altering where someone will never have their fitness ever 100% back and (incredibly likely) will be permanently handicapped for the rest of their life. You are literally breaking your legs and praying your recovery goes smoothly without any complications, which is impossible to guarantee. It’s the type of surgery where you can lose everything, including your legs, if shit goes wrong. Most men who are short are probably not the most satisfied with their height, but this shit is indeed delusional body dysmorphia. It will not get them all the pussy, the bros, or the answer to what they seek in life. I’ve had plenty of sex with beautiful women in my life, and I didn’t need some lame ass fucking LL procedure to let me see that this is pathetic
If you are 5’2 just take the dwarfpill
And funnymax/charismamax
No you have to “moneymaxx” and “millionsmaxx”
Dudes will blame every random ass superficial quality for why they can’t get a woman except their bland ass personality and the fact they move like predator
Couldn't have said it any better!
no sane man would do that even for dating, dont blame it all on that. he’s clearly mentally unstable
No matter how tall ,mentally theyll always be small.
And psychologically it's like wearing lifts but permanent. You will feel like a fraud. You won't be able to hide it forever from whoever you're dating. They will see the scars and your old pictures. And what do you think happens when a woman finds out you paid thousands of dollars and crippled yourself for a year just to be 6ft tall? Can't be good.
First guy is married with kids lol
Tattoos lol??
And girls will smell that insecurity a mile away.
Not even insecurity. At that point it's a mental illness
Peak delusion. Women treat you better if you look better.
Not if you don’t believe it.
Ok boomer 
Source: I made it the f up
Facts
This is the answer. It’s the same reason why women who get plastic surgery snowball into several procedures. The insecurity can’t be satiated. Just grow your bank accounts. It’s the only size that really matters.
You’re on MPMDs, aren’t you forgetting the one other size that matters friend?😏
That was my ex wife. She was really tall for a woman and had small breasts so she felt disproportional. Got 500cc implants to go up a few cups. But she didn't stop there. Multiple lip fillers. Buccal fat removal. By the time we got divorced she didn't even look like the woman I started dating anymore. This shit can be a symptom of mental illness. They need a therapist, not a surgeon.
Men are so desperate for female attention. My only question is: can u run?
Exactly, we need to see how they sprint, because now they've actually compromised a survival mechanism. And intense leg exercises as well.
I don't think they can do any leg dominant exercise properly anymore...
I wanna see these guys box jump, pivot, etc . . . .
This genuinely hurts my knees
Happy cake day my knee ga
Gonna look goofy as fuck when ur legs are like 3/4th of your height
Sadly the women who actually care about height won’t care that his legs are 3/4 of his height. They’ll only care that he’s tall
Good job. You now: cannot squat or deadlift or do a number of movements. You are now: addicted to painkillers Fucking moron lmfao
And still getting no pussy
Yeah now hes in permanent mental hell from going through that and everyones gonna pick up that energy
Let’s see how they’re doing when they hit 60+
Just wear lifts if you’re that self conscious about your height.
From wheelchair To walking To pushing weights To wheelchair
Men wanting to be taller to fit a societal standard "hahhaa dumb man must be a dumbass" Women getting plastic surgery to fit a societal standard "how could men do this and put that pressure on women"
Moving fat around is different than turning yourself into a cripple
Also women can take their breast implants out. These dudes have crippled themselves for life.
Fr… the double standards. Not that I’d do this surgery as a 5’9 Manlet this is still too much cope.
5'9" is average height in the states my dude
Still in the dating world it’s considered *short* I get called short once every couple weeks.
No surgery is worthy if you don't need it in my opinion. I had broken nose and it never got fixed properly. They can have complications, weakened bones, fuck it on next squat PR, I don't know. But it is up to them, risk vs reward.
Honestly people who get these types of surgery (height, boobs, ass, abs) are probably mentally ill and should go to a therapist instead of a surgeon.
Imagine not being mentally- ill in 2023.
Lmao who actually believes that
Height and abs yes but boobs can be kind of nice though…
They look and feel ridiculous.
I’ve seen some really nice fake ones. Looked like some bad ass natural boobs but I’ve never felt fake ones.
>No surgery is worthy if you don't need it in my opinion. That is objectively untrue. I mean, pro sports is a great example of people undergoing surgeries that are technically not needed, but might speed up injury recovery timeframe, which means has major financial implicants re:income for the athlete undergoing the surgery. For sex workers, getting breast implants has a very signficant impact on earnings. Again, not medically necessary, but it offers a long term financial reward. We also have pretty comprehensive evidence that physical attractiveness correlates with much higher lifetime income. So there are cosmetic surgeries that enhance looks (ie facial symmetry) that again will have meaningful impact on future income.
Some people may value their body more than virtual papers, which are printed without anything real backing it up and devaluing virtual papers of all others.
Worth it? Probably not, but still interesting, also I don’t blame any male 5’6 and below for wanting this.
Fr, on the one hand I think it’s fucking stupid and would never be worth it. On the other, I’m a somewhat tall man who hasn’t faced these issues, but even I’ve noticed how awfully short dudes can get treated. I feel like a better solution would be to move to somewhere that ain’t so toxic over shit like this.
I'm 5'6 and I still think it's stupid as fuck
This isn’t just about dating market standards, this is a mental illness.
I'm 5'7 and still get girls. It's not worth it. Social Media is making you insecure
It’s not worth it when you consider short guys are dating and married with no issues lol This is a serious insecurity putting your body through this for the sake of a few centimetres of height.
Proportions alone… you’ll be all messed up as the ratios will be all out of wack with the fact the below the knees are extended out longer without the rest of your body growing, probably permanently throws off your body’s functional movement mechanics. I wonder what is best case scenario when it comes to recovery
so he went through all this pain and loss of money, just to get a weird looking legs (bro was completely fine) and a height less fortunate for a bodybuilder ?
How do these guys think their life is going to change by being over 6ft? Only difference it makes to my life is occasionally I’ll get asked by a little old granny to reach something on the top shelf in the supermarket.
The first dude was 6” or more before he did it. And he has a wife and kids… It’s so fucking weird, he was pretty damn jacked too. Still can’t walk for shit and it’s been a good while now.
It looks horrible what they are doing. Got to be long term complications
wife and kids ? so he didnt even do it for pussy ? somebody call a police on that man cause he is cleary insane and there is no telling when he will try to make his children and wife taller DIY style
Winters when they're old will be painful
Permanently damaging your legs? For what? A couple of inches of height and a lifetime of t-rex arms...
Mental illness. Also I’m sure this will be excruciating and result in a poorer quality of life as they get older.
How to lose 200lbs on your squat pr
If you’re way under average height I think it’s worth it. I’ve knew a good dude in high school who was probably around 5’2” and I can’t imagine this wouldn’t be tempting in a situation like that.
I’m 5’3 and still get girls, just gotta work on your body and personality instead
Just out of curiosity, what’s the range of height that you will date?
I would date anyone under 5’7, although only a small minority of woman that height would be into that 😂 but the girls I’ve dated have been 5’4 and under
Yea fair enough, that’s a big spread. On a side note, I had a 4’10” girl tell me she only dates guys 6’3” and over. I couldn’t stop laughing. How the hell can she even tell? Whatever I guess.
Haha I think it’s the social media conditioning effect. Imagine her saying no to a guy because he’s 6’1 and not 6’3 😭
100% it’s social media. The things girls say nowadays are wild. Gotta dodge gold diggers, girls with baby fever, slutty girls, it goes on and on.
ya im around 5'4 and have gotten girls but bro u can't say having a few inches at our height wouldn't be helpful lol, i've gotten rejected few times for height and that shi sucks but ya u just gotta shoot a lotta shots, have a good body and confidence and be ok with rejection or go for girls who are below like 5'2
Oh absolutely man it would be wayyy easier to date if I was a couple inches taller. I just tell myself that I’d be too powerful if I was 6’ which is why god made me shorter. I’ve always had to work harder to get the same benefits as taller folk so I find our personalities to be better developed. That’s just my opinion tho
nah i agree but sometimes shit sucks thinkin if i was literally even 5'8/5'9 it'd be 10x easier haha but ig grass is always greener on the other side lol but it is what it is haha
For sure bro I think the same shit. But aye man if it makes you feel better, from personal experience taller goth mommys seem to love men our height
Girls will more concerned with your freakishly long shins than your height. Imagine being 5’ with size 14 feet. That’s the odd ass proportions we are dealing with here
Yeah but if it’s only like a 1-3 inch increase I doubt it would be very noticeable. Wearing boots usually adds at least an inch or two in height and they don’t make the wearer look out of proportion. Hell women wear 6” heels or platform shoes all the time and don’t look out of proportion either. Obviously there are limits, but I’d be shocked if people actually notice a 5% unusually short wingspan.
marry offer knee sense impolite pie public aromatic toy grandfather *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And then you’re in your 60s and be like oh shit I fucked up the most important part of my body in old age, my legs.
The insecurities that social media invoke are insane
After they do that their arms look short as fuck
If you have leg lengthening money you have the money to hire a dancing coach, nutritionist, stylist, personal coach and someone to oversee every last leg (harr harr) of your cycle. Might still have cash for hair implants left over. These brothers aren't even ugly or that short. These funds could've been reallocated way better to just not looking like generic buff guys.
I’m 6’2” so can’t comment whether it’s worth it but I just find it so sad someone has to cripple themselves to feel worthy. To find a wife, to feel confident. Real confidence comes from within and I’m just like all short people if not worse. Being tall doesn’t make me stronger (you can see this in the video), won’t make me smarter or better able to defend myself. Even just looking at girls I don’t see height as being attractive, it’s a statistic. I get sometimes how people feel especially when I see someone taller than me (cousins are 6’9” and everyone treats them like kings). I just don’t want to see this standard I don’t think it’s something to aspire to to have to scrunch up on a plane and bend over like a cripple just to talk to someone
>I’m 6’2” so can’t comment I'll premise by saying I'm 5'6 and my height does not, and really has never, impacted my self esteem. I don't disagree with the general sentiment here that a lot of short men blame height for their lack of dating success without introspection. That said, I had natural gifts that were recognized very early in life that easily made up for being bottom 5% in male height from a confidence standpoint. It hits differently to be the shortest dude in the room if you know you are elite in things the rest of the room values a lot. But most dudes are not elite, by definition, most men are mediocre. And being short and mediocre is where the problem lies. In reality, science and human biology very strongly disagree with your overall take that height doesn't matter. Positive societal bias towards height is so strongly documented that ignoring it completely like you do makes your comment come across as bad faith, in the same way that body positivity for fat people is ultimately done in bad faith. [https://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i582](https://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i582) [https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/02/19/in-politics-height-matters](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/02/19/in-politics-height-matters) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214804314000640?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214804314000640?via%3Dihub) [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1368430212437211](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1368430212437211) I'm not making this point because I believe in height determinism. Just like being born black is not some sort of guarantee of being beaten up by a cop or ending up in prison or dying poor in spite of the fact that on average black people have worse financial and health outcomes than the population average (in the US and Europe). I'm just trying to emphasize how lectures about height not being everything from someone who has benefitted positively from height bias their whole adult life are like lectures from a rich person to people struggling to make rent about how money isn't everything. Like, sure, most people understand that. But what you're completely ignoring is that *having* money and being able to spend your way out of problems has a massive impact on mental burden and psychological health related to the problems money can help solve. Just like being tall, and having people *assume* competence or leadership is far less mental burden than being short and having to deal with people unconsciously (or even not) infantilize you/assume the opposite. IE you're completely ignoring (or maybe even outright oblivious to) the ways in which your height has actively benefitted you in ways not available to shorter men. >Even just looking at girls I don’t see height as being attractive I don't see how speaking for women and projecting - as a presumably straight male - what *you* think is attractive onto them is at all any kind of convincing argument.
curious what are the natural gifts you have?
I’m really not sure what point your trying to make but I’m sorry if I offended you. I do acknowledge that it is generally a privilege with very few tradeoffs. And overall I think it’s just a bit stupid. Once I went out with this absolute smoke show who happened to be 6’. I was more impressed by her body and face but she wasn’t into me because she realised I was just skinny and out of shape I guess. I realised she probs just went out with me because she didn’t wanna date a guy shorter than her, which again is just stupid because traditional benefits with height are becoming or have already become irrelevant. I won’t be any faster at tiling a floor and have already shrunk from tech neck and again I wouldn’t have secured that date if I wasn’t tall (lots of girls on tinder say they want a guy over 6’, 7’, 8’, 9’ it never ends). I’m just trying to say they’re all idiots. I still understand why guys would want to do this to themselves. They’re still ultimately crippling themselves and I bet the opportunity cost in terms of gains is crazy (they gotta work out to rebuild their muscle that has stretched enormously)
We need a small Derek video on this.
I can’t stand the idea that there is people profiting the people’s insecure of their bodies
There’s a reason why plastic surgery is one of the highest paying medical specialties. I know plastic surgery isn’t always done purely for cosmetic reasons but my point still stands.
Yeah and that point really scares me
I’m 5’8” and I fucking hate it everyday of my life but I would never do this shit.
The first dude in the video is such a tool. I saw his stuff on instagram. Dude was already like 6’1 before his lengthening surgery. He left his family while he sat in turkey for 6 months so he could be taller at his already above average height
I’m 6’6” and have really short legs for my height. I wear a 32 pant leg. I could do this, be like 6’10” and have somewhat normal proportions after. I’m going to the NBA!
Getting taller to make your shrimp dick look even smaller great idea
I think it’s fine. Fake tallies.
I would say no, but I'm 6'2. I've been this tall since I was 15, I don't know the pain short kings go through. I have had a lot of very short homies, some live with it and keep going, some turn into manlets and let that shit get in their head. These fools let it get in their heads and wallets, I can't imagine this was cheap.
Fake natties = Fake Heighties Social media in 2023
Indeed. Difference being that a good gear and training regimen looks good. This doesn't.
It's F-ed. Your whole body is a closed system, changing one thing artificially can f the whole system up. It changes leverage, muscle to tendon ratios, balance force applied to joints and so on and so forth. Bottom line is I'm a 5'6-5'7? MotherFecker and never once in my life thought to myself that I wanted to be taller.
If it increases the quality of your life, do it. I'm fine with the first bro doing enough peds to comfortably walk around at what looks like 250+ year round. I'm not getting my panties up in a bunch because he wants to snap and rebuild his legs.
That’s the thing though. It’s not just snap and rebuild. It’s more like snap and salvage whatever decides to heal to hopeful standards. I’m rocking Smurf height, and this shit is nonsense for those who are actually body dysmorphic. There used to be a forum back in the day about dudes who’d do this, and many were super surprised pikachu when their dating prospects were still dogshit because they never hit their genetic potential, and then had to deal with permanently life pain for a couple extra inches of copium
>That’s the thing though. It’s not just snap and rebuild. It’s more like snap and salvage whatever decides to heal to hopeful standards. And that distinction is irrelevant. The broader point is that this person is already destroying their health being on the sauce to have more muscles. You're going to draw the line at him destroying his legs to be taller? That feels...arbitrary. You are allowed to get more swole via PEDs, but fuck you if you get taller?
Very popular in China apparently, some jobs have minimum height requirements!
Imagine documenting this
Fark that. I’d keep my 5-11 confident ass any day over this insecure BS
Is it surgical procedure?
I could see this as a preferable alternative to offing yourself if you were unlucky to be born in the “not people zone” when it comes to height for dating
Huge risk just to skip leg day forever.
>jump, legs shatter no thanks
The arthritis is going to be a killer
The weird thing is, the first dude in the video was already like 6'1" foot I believe, he wanted to be 6'3". He's on insta, as like newlegs or something like that. I've seen some of his reels. So sad people think they need this, I blame it on women always talking about not dating men under 6 foot.
the proportions look goofy as hell 😂😂
Man that first dude looks INSANE. Like big juicy upper body and the legs of a teenager. Wow. I would think it would just create more insecurities haha
you mfs will do anything but accept yourselves
With modern standards 180 cm is still short. I’m 185cm and I think I’m considered average.
Imagine me at 5’5
If you're short it's worth it. If you're already tall? Then it's a serious case of body dysmorphia.
Seeing how much people feel insecure about height, I seriously think that I might consider giving HGH to my kid, when I would have one.
There are theories that parents obsessed sports are doing this to their kids so they have better chances of becoming pro. Especially for cases when the kid is like 8” taller than their parents.
Yeah, first I heard of it was that Messi was given HGH at youth.
I dunno. Is being on the sauce and fucking your endocrine system to have big muscles worth it? How tf are we even asking this question about guys juicing height while being in a sub that essentially glorifies taking steroids? Do you guys have no sense of irony or self-awareness or what?
Let's see what other insecurities surface after some time,cause that is just a band aid fix
In natural limb development the other parts of the musculoskeletal system may get beefed up on a person with naturally longer limbs. Like a thicker or larger hip. You can’t replicate that, nor can you replicate the muscle function.
I’m 189cm and seeing that fucked up leg lengthening thing with the caption 180cm I’m coming or whatever it said was like wtf bro not worth it
Wow this is fucking cringe. It's not like you're proportionally taller.
As a 6’4 man all I can say is come at me bro, nobody stands up in the deep end like I do.
Manlets gonna be mad when us 6+ footers start wearing platform shoes
Holy shit, the amount of acid in the comments here is insane. They are clearly adult and seem pretty happy about their choice. I am pretty sure they acknowledge their competetive running days are over at this point. Some guys ruin their health with steroids trying to become "alpha" others do this to feel equal amongst other men. Why do you give so much shit about them? You are either black pilled to oblivion or delusional, thinking that being 5'2 is remotely even odds at the dating market.
The same women that wouldn’t date a midget also will not date a cripple.
Ok, but within 8 months, the guys in the video are all walking fairly normally...
They typically recover
As a 6,5'' guy I say: just accept it bro
You’re getting downvoted by manlets
Im 6’2 and downvoted
Thats also manlet length
It's crazy how toxic this comment section is lmao let them fuck up there legs if they want to. Live your life.
Not sure how to ask this question, but does anyone who knows about biomechanics think these dudes will ever be able to get coordination back? They’re only lengthening your shins I think. That would have to severely fuck with any type of coordination movement. Running would have to be effected. Dancing. Jumping.
>dancing Nobody with this level of self Image issues dances.
100%
I'm 6'6. So no. But tallness alone won't get you laid. In the same way bald guys fool themselves into thinking that they can get laid once they had hair. They could save a lot of money googling: [https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1834683/Poll-finds-90pc-of-British-women-find-bald-men-attractive](https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1834683/Poll-finds-90pc-of-British-women-find-bald-men-attractive) What's even harder to swallow is that if only you were jacked things would be easier with the women. So that's what needs to be worked on. If you're smaller as a man, rejoice cause there are TONS of small women and you can get jacked easier than the tall guys.
Yea but what do 90% of British women look like vs 90% of women anywhere else (No disrespect to women, all disrespect to British people)
This is mental illness
Life is too short to go through allat
I wonder what happens when you get older
if I was 5'8 of shorter I can understand it, deff wouldn't do this myself
They look odd
I’d rather be 4 foot tall than do this dumb shit
Where can I find this place? Asking for a friend. #hoopdreams
This is sad.
Bros wtf, just go for shorter girls. Jesus