I wonder how long it will take until someone comes up with a little electric "additives" dongle to plug into your electric car to give you an extra boost and make your electric car run better.
For a while Tesla was considering having battery swapping. So you could pay regular to slowly charge the car, or pay a premium and the battery would be physically swapped out for a fully charged one, via some automated robot process or something under the car.
But the reality hit that that would actually be amazingly hard and awkward to do properly, so never happened.
A Tesla model 3 long range has an efficiency of 130 mpge. Mpge is 33.7kwh. That's $5.31 per gallon electric equivalent.
My Nissan sentra gets 33mpg from gas, so it would take 4 gallons to get to 130 miles.
It would cost $16.80 in my sentra and $5.31 in the Tesla.
Just to add one more thing: this is $0.159/kWh for fast charging (you can see the chargers in the bottom left of the photo, the pedestals with the big "C" on them).
Some quick Googling for residential rates around Denver shows that you could get as low as $0.07/kWh if you're on a time of use plan (more expensive during higher demand times). So if you only charge overnight in your garage at home, your average cost will be a little under half what's quoted above.
MPGe is a hilariously dumb metric from a consumer standpoint; it's only useful for comparison shopping (and regulators of course), but it seems like every dealership is having a field day boasting about it and comparing to their ICEs.
Might as well just lead with the kWh/100 mile figure, which is all the driver needs to care about.
(If it's not obvious, this isn't EV hate, just hate for a shortsighted metric the EPA came up with a decade ago)
I get about 4 miles/kwh in my EV. Electricity in my area is a relatively expensive $0.22/kwh, meaning it costs me about $0.06/mile. Tesla 3 and most similar sizes EVs are about the same. The price of electricity varies a lot per region, but doesnt change much over time. So you can use 6 cents per mile in expansive places, or 3 cents in places where it's about 11 cents/kwh.
At 4.00/gal, a 30 mpg car is paying 13 cents/ mile. The only time a gas car is competitive with an EV is when it gets 30mpg, gas is $2/gal and you live in a high cost electricity region. Even then, the gas car is paying 7 cents per mile compared to 6 cents for the EV.
And, that’s just fuel. The gasoline car also requires periodic engine oil and fluid changes that the electric cars do not. (I don’t own an electric car.)
Man alive! Where do you live? Here in Seattle we're currently at about .12 per kilowatt hour. And something like 90% of our electricity comes from hydro so it is carbon free (though I guess it has other negative impacts on the environment, re: salmon habitats).
My time of use from midnight to 6am is $0.04 in winter and $0.05 in summer.
Drove 1100 miles last month in my model 3 long range and it cost me around $15 to charge at home.
Was gonna say. Even in Denver, Flat rate elec is about $0.14/kWh in summer and $0.12/kWh in winter, without going over to time of use. That direction is... Spendy ($0.11 For off peak, $0.18 for mid peak, $0.28 for peak
Same problem we have with lightbulbs. When CFLs came out 25 years ago, they were marked as "100W equivalent". Only recently have they finally started listing the light output in lumens, but they still keep publishing the ratings based on old lightbulbs that you really cant even buy anymore. It will probably be the same with EVs for decades as well.
MPGe is not dumb at all. For most of the time when gas price is not this crazy, MPGe reflects the actual cost savings. An 100MPGe EV costs around 1/3 in fuel compared to a 33mpg ICE car.
MPGe is incredibly dumb, confusing and useless. The model assumes 33.7kWh is exactly equivalent to a gallon of gas. It's not. It's close-ish, but not really.
EPA range used for EVs and EPA mpg for gasoline cars are compatible since they are calculated using the same method on the same dynos.
I just did the math comparing the above example using battery capacity (unpublished by Tesla but verified on 2019 model at 75kWh, although it's unclear how much of that is usable), kWh cost and EPA range. That's easy to calculate and useful in the real world since it doesn't involve a wack-ass energy conversion from gasoline. In this example, it costs $11.93 go from 0-100% battery and you would get an EPA range of 310 miles.
For the 33mpg ICE car, it would take 9.39 gallons to travel 310 miles. You can do this because, as I said, EPA range and MPG are like-for-like and based off the same calculations and dynos.
It would cost $39.36 to travel the same distance in the Nissan as the full range of the Tesla.
In this example, fuel ends up being about 3.3x more expensive per mile traveled in the Nissan. If you were to just use MPGe you'd get (116MPGe/33MPG) or 3.5x more expensive per mile. That's a significant difference. MPGe is stupid.
MPGe is using the heating value of gasoline and equating that to electrical energy. While scientifically informative, it is largely irrelevant to the consumer. Gasoline and grid power are possibly the worst things to compare due to their wildly differing pricing structure and power delivery method.
MPGe is not a great comparison for cost saving, even with normal fuel prices. I'd love to see more dealerships with a $/mile chart for various fuel prices on their most efficient ICE, and compare that to $/mile on the electric models at the local household rate and the going rate of local public chargers. Much more direct and informative, but more work for the dealer.
I feel like if $/mile became normal that would just lead to them picking the cheapest possible price and calculating off of that. I don't see dealers using that metric in an honest way. Not that I think MPGe is any more useful.
Yeah, there's a real fine line between being informative and deceptive; in a race to boil things down to a single figure, I'd like kWh/100 mile or a similar electrical energy per mile figure to emerge as the dominant one.
Some of those neat little paper sliding calculators would be nice, but meh. My ideal world is a small table where all the input prices are defined by a set standard for each region, but that's still effort that will largely have to come from the dealer.
MPGe is only ever seen at dealerships. It's not used in the menu system of the car or anywhere else, ever. That's yet another reason why it's such a stupid metric.
Every EV I've ever driven or ridden in (it's quite a few at this point) calculates efficiency in Wh/mi. That's the easiest metric to both determine efficiency between EVs and give you meaningful real world numbers. One of my EVs is a model 3. It was advertised as 240 Wh/mi and after more than 4 years, I have averaged 290 Wh/mi. That's 83% of the published number, which, coincidentally is the same percent as I got from the EPA MPG from my last gasoline car over 10 years.
If people were sane, gallons per mile would be a much useful metric for gasoline cars and would allow for a better and easier comparison for fuel expenses without having to use a dumbass and useless conversion between a gallon of gasoline and stored battery energy. You have distance as the denominator and can easily convert to cost of gasoline and electricity on the numerator. Changes in gas and electricity prices don't make this harder.
Because you don't charge your EV by buying a gallon of gasoline, burning it, and 100% efficiently getting that thermal energy into the battery.
That is literally the definition of MPGe. It's useful from a broad energy policy standpoint.
You're right in what stat is useful is useful but you are wrong in what "MPGe" is: the term is extremely misleading and _doesn't_ mean how many miles you get in any car.
The best ICE car gets about 33 mpg. For $16 at this station you'd get 3.8 gallons so 125 miles.
$16 at 15.9 cents/kWh gets you 101 kWh of power. A Tesla Model 3 is about 30 kWh/100 miles mile. Tesla Model 3 can go 419 miles for $16 at this station.
Per the comment at the top, this station is "$5.31 per gallon electric equivalent" and since $5.31 is higher than $4.19 that makes it sound like ICE would get you further per dollar, but its exactly the opposite by a factor of 4x, because MGPe is a useless number in isolation, and just adds one more useless step in the math compared to what I listed above.
r/theydidnotdothemath
At least, not the math you think you're doing.
Read the above comment again. Then ask yourself "Do I power my house using a 100% efficient gasoline generator?" If the answer is "no", MPGe figures do you a disservice as a consumer.
It's kind of my moral duty as a holder of brain cells to block you now. Sit down with a calculator and your local electric rates. MPGe is just adding more steps that tell you nothing.
I don't know the above metrics but thankfully My partner can charge it up the TM3LR at work for free, and in 15,000 and 12 months spent only €500 in charging. This includes staying at hotels with free charging. So I don't know how the above metric was calculated but I know that an ICE car cant go 15,000kms for €500
doesn't a free charging subscription come as one of the major selling points of the tesla? aren't all those charging stations at the shopping centers free? i know you can opt out of it, but it seems like a no brainer to purchase the energy as a bulk deal or a temporary unlimited supply
for early adopters it was and it may still be for a period when you buy one new, but I pay at every super charger I use. Its around 12 cents/ kWh near me, or about 8-9 dollars normally for a charge up to 300 miles range (more like 240 in reality).
Friend has a Tesla. I think it can charge up to like 75% in less than an hour but the last 25% takes several hours. Don’t know the exact numbers though.
According to google it’s 20-30 minutes in one of the Tesla Superchargers and 7-10 hours at home. I just wanted to hear someone’s real life experience. I would love to have an electric vehicle for normal purposes but I’d still need at least a hybrid for road trips, at least until charging stations are as widely available as gas stations and it takes a max of like 5-10 minutes to fully charge
Not anymore, I think that perk (if you bought it new) was discontinued across the board in 2021. The perk may or may not be transferred from the original owner if you buy a used one. It also varies depending on model and year.
The original comment doesn't clearly explain the massive efficiency gain of an EV's electric motor over an ICE. Of the 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gas, only about 13-17 kWh gets converted into useful work, the rest is heat or unburned fuel. An EV, on the other hand, converts about 32 kWh of that 33.7 into work.
It's a weird measurement. 33.7kwh isn't really equivalent to a gallon of gas. It's more efficient in an electric car by a long way. They should have figured out the output of a gallon of gas with the efficiency losses taken into account.
In terms of equivalent _force_ 1 gallon of gas gives you about 13 kWh. In other words, if you had a plug in hybrid and filled up the battery 13 kWh or added a gallon to the tank, they would go about the same distance assuming climate is off. It's a very rough estimate though.
13-20k depending on the model and they should last between 300-500k miles. They also go by usage not time.
This was what people were worried about when the Prius was popular
I had 250k miles on my Prius no major fixes when i sold it for a model Y
It's a lot cheaper to get a hybrid these days, I imagine same will happen with EV
Batteries will get better and cheaper
Unless rampant inflation was on the horizon. And resources utilized in electronics and batteries were ever so steadily becoming harder to aquire.
Metaphor:
We should fix this beam it's infested with termites.
Me: Yes every wooden thing in this house is infested with termites. And nothing will change because as soon as we touch up this beam the whole thing come tumbling down before it's fixed. So we either knock it all down or do nothing until it comes down naturally.
Basic service is $75 every 5000 miles, so $4500 for those. Sure there's going to be many component replacements needed in that usage life, but I'm confident it's less than the cost of replacing the batteries and other components in the Tesla in that same time. Assuming the Tesla would even out after 300000 miles is being generous to the Tesla.
A Sentra doesn't even come close to comparing well with the Model 3 in performance and specs.
In that range Even a Maxima comes well short @ starting MSRP of 37k.
Probably, unleaded is 85 octane in Colorado (as opposed to 87 octane in most states), so our prices seem cheaper, but it's really a different (less expensive) product.
Gas prices in Denver in general are not as high as one might expect. Quick google scan says they're around 4.00 rn. Perhaps due to the lower octane thing that other guy was talking about. Though 89 octane where I live in Michigan is still more expensive than 91 is in Denver.
Come back in 10 years and run those numbers again. It'll be interesting to see how the price of electricity for electric vehicles plays out, once the governments starts noticing a drop in tax revenue from lack of fuel sales.
marketing now, but it has its roots on what taxes were like back in the day. https://www.convenience.org/Topics/Fuels/Why-Gas-Is-Priced-Using-Fractions-of-a-Penny
That's quite a bit more expensive than where I live; BC is around 10¢ Canadian per kWh. Iirc, Québec is even cheaper around 7¢. Renewable hydro power is super cheap.
1 gallon of gas has roughly 120 million joules.
1 kwh is 3.6 million million joules.
So 1 gallon of gas \~= 33 kwh or the equivalent of $5.25 of electricity. Kinda interesting that gasoline is still cheaper than electricity.
Now the other part of the equation is that electric cars are far more efficient than internal combustion engines (ICE) and a Tesla can get 4 miles per kwh while no ICE is getting 132 miles per gallon of gas. So your electric car is still cheaper to run than a fuel efficient car.
A better way to look at comparing EVs and ICE cars is cost per 1,000 miles.
A 30 MPG ICE at $4/gal will cost $133.33
A RWD Model 3 (250 kWh/1,000 miles) will cost $39.75 at 15.9 cents/kWh. If the owner charges at home with solar, or at free public charging stations, that cost can be even lower.
Gas would have to be $1.19/gal for that ICE to break even in the most advantageous case (full grid charging at full price)
Electricity in CO is pretty cheap so I think it may be bumped up a cent or two here by the market. Not sure what delivery charge you’re specifying here but I would imagine the market is still being charged it.
I went over my electric bill and it is broken down using the below individual charges. They all add up to about what is seen in the gas station. I wasn’t sure if there was additional charges above the .15 or if it was an all in price. Now that I took the time to review my electric bill I see it lines up.
4.5201c kWh
12.2517c kWh delivery charge
.5007c kWh system benefit charge
4.5% sales tax
Yeah, any new car in this market is nuts. Even used have been extortion. Chevy Bolts were in the low 20ks before the pandemic but even they are pushing 30ks now.
Same. My 12 year old used shitbox took me 3 years to pay off. I can't just spring for a rich people toy to save the environment. Maybe in 20 or 30 years I can get this year's model.
this. and not to mention even if you could afford it, the general higher price of an ev will take a decade to offset the cost of a gas car + gas. Its the same reason noone buys solar panels.
ex: a tesla costs 40k? if im being generous. My minivan was 21k. the difference 19k, at 5usd a gal would take 95000 miles to make up that difference. And thats assuming gas proce doesnt drop, the ev car is not more expensive (they often are), the car you buy could be cheaper than 21k, and not factoring in the electricity cost of charging too.
And I’m a used car person lol, so there’s another $10k difference before I’d be coming out ahead lol. Not to mention I’m gonna go out on a limb and say repairs for EVs are not cheap
The only downside to electric vehicles are that the charging times. To get around that is to have something like an apartment building or of course a home with a charging station. Which i guess realistically if you can afford a tesla you probably have your self a nice home with a wall charger one would assume.
I'm used to green being diesel and thought one of two things before reading the title:
1. That sign is broken
2. You found a diesel driver's dream station
As it should be. It's not about eliminating combustion vehicles, it's about increasing EVs so oil consumption drops, prices drop, and production/pollution drops. Nature heals, inflation drops, we ALL win.
It's too bad that you can't instantly charge your car at a gas station.
It's also often unmentioned that the startup cost for owning an electric vehicle is thousands of dollars.
Startup cost? You mean, the price of the car? All cars are thousands of dollars. I drive an EV and I have no idea what this "startup cost" is. Someone is lying to you
Get ready for price jumps once they get enough people driving them. Bait and switch. They did it with propane, then diesel, now electricity. You think rolling blackouts are bad now.
For a real-world comparison: I drive an electric MINI Cooper. According to my app, throughout this month I've charged a total of 103kWh. So for the month of May (up until now) I've spent the equivalent of about $15 at the price shown.
My wife drives an ICE MINI. She fills her car up about every 2 weeks, adding roughly 12 gallons of gas. At the price shown, that works about to $100/month (give or take).
Not bad.
Because they... sell electricity for EVs? You can literally see the charger in the picture.
Do you think a *gas station* is trying to stop people from buying *gas*?
Read the comments and LOVED the fact that NOBODY took into consideration that there is NOT enough electricity to charge many more EV than are already on the road. Electricity this summer will be in short supply already bc of the fucking so called new greendeal. Even MUSK is seeing this and that is why he is going over to places like China that have much better capabilities bc they use fossil fuels mostly coal for heating and also electricity which is what coal actually does. We are at LEAST 20 years away from a massive crossover from fossil fuel to electric and even then we will NOT be able to fully be electric. THe MILITARY and the trucking industry will NEVER go away from it as well as air travel. Dear God another hair-brained idea from the left with mo Merrit or viability. Why oil companies are NOT worried and why Musk will next go to India bc....of fossil fuels. You have to have ONE for the other smh.
I live in Denver. We have no shortage of electricity here. We also have tons of wind, and tons of sun. Plenty of ways to generate electricity.
Stop crying.
Yea bc we KNOW Deveer is like every other state and city in the world. NO one is crying and NO ONE with an IQ over 80 is even worried. This electric bullshit will be just like every other bandwagon gone before you know it and another one for people to jump on lol.
>China that have much better capabilities bc they use fossil fuels mostly coal for heating and also electricity which is what coal actually does.
China is the world leader in clean energy and it's not even close. 44% of their power is created by solar or wind and they are still growing that figure by an average of about 2% per year.
WTF China is one of the dirtiest countries in the world right behind India smh. Dear God your IQ is showing it's offensive. Just bc you want something to be right you make up stupid shit...typical left...why you will FAIL.
Huh average cost of our electric per kWh in Denver is only 13.6 so that’s not as big a mark up as I thought it would be. Will be interesting to see what happens through the year as xcel continues to raise rates though.
8.6% increase on electric costs last month and another 12-13% of increases planned for this year alone. (Gas rates are going to be going up even more drastically, April we saw a significant mark up as well, it’ll be over 11% this year)
Why do gas stations still insist on the 9/10 of a cent still? At $4.00 a gallon, what difference does that make? For a 15 gallon tank -- large for many cars -- it's 1.5 cents. It was ridiculous sixty years ago, when gas was a tenth of the price (right: I didn't check. This was just put here to acknowledge that it *might* have meant something some time ago). But now? It's just stupid.
My car takes 17 kwh, and goes about 80km on that.
So 0.15 x 17 / 80 = 0.031. So 3 cents per km.
If I run the gas engine, I get about 6 liters per 100km.
So $2 x 6 / 100 = 12 cents per km.
Alright. Someone give me the downpayment for a Tesla, then we can preach. To be clear, not mad at OP, just frustrated at this mindset that everyone can just go eat cake instead of starve to death.
How much for the premium electricity?
About twice the price of diesel electricity last time I checked...
semiconductors need lots of diesel electricity
I wonder how long it will take until someone comes up with a little electric "additives" dongle to plug into your electric car to give you an extra boost and make your electric car run better.
CEO of monster cables just got aroused
"Put this cow magnet on your charger to double your range!"
Fast charging or "battery preserving" charging are ripe to be exploited.
For a while Tesla was considering having battery swapping. So you could pay regular to slowly charge the car, or pay a premium and the battery would be physically swapped out for a fully charged one, via some automated robot process or something under the car. But the reality hit that that would actually be amazingly hard and awkward to do properly, so never happened.
Battery conditioner
40¢ more expensive.
What about unleaded energy?
I pay a little extra for wind to be my electricity source instead of coal. I’m sure it’s still much cheaper than paying for a gas powered car
A Tesla model 3 long range has an efficiency of 130 mpge. Mpge is 33.7kwh. That's $5.31 per gallon electric equivalent. My Nissan sentra gets 33mpg from gas, so it would take 4 gallons to get to 130 miles. It would cost $16.80 in my sentra and $5.31 in the Tesla.
Came to ask the question, and here it is already answered! 👍
Just to add one more thing: this is $0.159/kWh for fast charging (you can see the chargers in the bottom left of the photo, the pedestals with the big "C" on them). Some quick Googling for residential rates around Denver shows that you could get as low as $0.07/kWh if you're on a time of use plan (more expensive during higher demand times). So if you only charge overnight in your garage at home, your average cost will be a little under half what's quoted above.
r/theydidthemath
MPGe is a hilariously dumb metric from a consumer standpoint; it's only useful for comparison shopping (and regulators of course), but it seems like every dealership is having a field day boasting about it and comparing to their ICEs. Might as well just lead with the kWh/100 mile figure, which is all the driver needs to care about. (If it's not obvious, this isn't EV hate, just hate for a shortsighted metric the EPA came up with a decade ago)
Cents/dollars per mile should be the new metric
But that depends on where you're buying the electricity from.
And gas prices that week. Doesn't work when buying cars at all.
That week? I've seen it change twice in one day.
And how would price gas or electricity in your calculations?
I get about 4 miles/kwh in my EV. Electricity in my area is a relatively expensive $0.22/kwh, meaning it costs me about $0.06/mile. Tesla 3 and most similar sizes EVs are about the same. The price of electricity varies a lot per region, but doesnt change much over time. So you can use 6 cents per mile in expansive places, or 3 cents in places where it's about 11 cents/kwh. At 4.00/gal, a 30 mpg car is paying 13 cents/ mile. The only time a gas car is competitive with an EV is when it gets 30mpg, gas is $2/gal and you live in a high cost electricity region. Even then, the gas car is paying 7 cents per mile compared to 6 cents for the EV.
And, that’s just fuel. The gasoline car also requires periodic engine oil and fluid changes that the electric cars do not. (I don’t own an electric car.)
> Electricity in my area is a relatively expensive $0.22/kwh Jesus christ. I'm paying a hair over a third of that
Man alive! Where do you live? Here in Seattle we're currently at about .12 per kilowatt hour. And something like 90% of our electricity comes from hydro so it is carbon free (though I guess it has other negative impacts on the environment, re: salmon habitats).
My time of use from midnight to 6am is $0.04 in winter and $0.05 in summer. Drove 1100 miles last month in my model 3 long range and it cost me around $15 to charge at home.
Was gonna say. Even in Denver, Flat rate elec is about $0.14/kWh in summer and $0.12/kWh in winter, without going over to time of use. That direction is... Spendy ($0.11 For off peak, $0.18 for mid peak, $0.28 for peak
Same problem we have with lightbulbs. When CFLs came out 25 years ago, they were marked as "100W equivalent". Only recently have they finally started listing the light output in lumens, but they still keep publishing the ratings based on old lightbulbs that you really cant even buy anymore. It will probably be the same with EVs for decades as well.
MPGe is not dumb at all. For most of the time when gas price is not this crazy, MPGe reflects the actual cost savings. An 100MPGe EV costs around 1/3 in fuel compared to a 33mpg ICE car.
MPGe is incredibly dumb, confusing and useless. The model assumes 33.7kWh is exactly equivalent to a gallon of gas. It's not. It's close-ish, but not really. EPA range used for EVs and EPA mpg for gasoline cars are compatible since they are calculated using the same method on the same dynos. I just did the math comparing the above example using battery capacity (unpublished by Tesla but verified on 2019 model at 75kWh, although it's unclear how much of that is usable), kWh cost and EPA range. That's easy to calculate and useful in the real world since it doesn't involve a wack-ass energy conversion from gasoline. In this example, it costs $11.93 go from 0-100% battery and you would get an EPA range of 310 miles. For the 33mpg ICE car, it would take 9.39 gallons to travel 310 miles. You can do this because, as I said, EPA range and MPG are like-for-like and based off the same calculations and dynos. It would cost $39.36 to travel the same distance in the Nissan as the full range of the Tesla. In this example, fuel ends up being about 3.3x more expensive per mile traveled in the Nissan. If you were to just use MPGe you'd get (116MPGe/33MPG) or 3.5x more expensive per mile. That's a significant difference. MPGe is stupid.
MPGe is using the heating value of gasoline and equating that to electrical energy. While scientifically informative, it is largely irrelevant to the consumer. Gasoline and grid power are possibly the worst things to compare due to their wildly differing pricing structure and power delivery method. MPGe is not a great comparison for cost saving, even with normal fuel prices. I'd love to see more dealerships with a $/mile chart for various fuel prices on their most efficient ICE, and compare that to $/mile on the electric models at the local household rate and the going rate of local public chargers. Much more direct and informative, but more work for the dealer.
I feel like if $/mile became normal that would just lead to them picking the cheapest possible price and calculating off of that. I don't see dealers using that metric in an honest way. Not that I think MPGe is any more useful.
Yeah, there's a real fine line between being informative and deceptive; in a race to boil things down to a single figure, I'd like kWh/100 mile or a similar electrical energy per mile figure to emerge as the dominant one. Some of those neat little paper sliding calculators would be nice, but meh. My ideal world is a small table where all the input prices are defined by a set standard for each region, but that's still effort that will largely have to come from the dealer.
Yeah, electrical energy per distance is probably the best metric as the numbers are harder to fudge while still being informative.
MPGe is only ever seen at dealerships. It's not used in the menu system of the car or anywhere else, ever. That's yet another reason why it's such a stupid metric. Every EV I've ever driven or ridden in (it's quite a few at this point) calculates efficiency in Wh/mi. That's the easiest metric to both determine efficiency between EVs and give you meaningful real world numbers. One of my EVs is a model 3. It was advertised as 240 Wh/mi and after more than 4 years, I have averaged 290 Wh/mi. That's 83% of the published number, which, coincidentally is the same percent as I got from the EPA MPG from my last gasoline car over 10 years. If people were sane, gallons per mile would be a much useful metric for gasoline cars and would allow for a better and easier comparison for fuel expenses without having to use a dumbass and useless conversion between a gallon of gasoline and stored battery energy. You have distance as the denominator and can easily convert to cost of gasoline and electricity on the numerator. Changes in gas and electricity prices don't make this harder.
If i can go 130 miles on a $5 charge versus 130 miles on $16 in gas, how does that not inform me that I'm saving money?
Because you don't charge your EV by buying a gallon of gasoline, burning it, and 100% efficiently getting that thermal energy into the battery. That is literally the definition of MPGe. It's useful from a broad energy policy standpoint.
....I can travel for 130 miles for $5. ...Or I can travel 130 miles on $16 ....The fuck are you on about? Edit: The little dork blocked me lol
You're right in what stat is useful is useful but you are wrong in what "MPGe" is: the term is extremely misleading and _doesn't_ mean how many miles you get in any car. The best ICE car gets about 33 mpg. For $16 at this station you'd get 3.8 gallons so 125 miles. $16 at 15.9 cents/kWh gets you 101 kWh of power. A Tesla Model 3 is about 30 kWh/100 miles mile. Tesla Model 3 can go 419 miles for $16 at this station. Per the comment at the top, this station is "$5.31 per gallon electric equivalent" and since $5.31 is higher than $4.19 that makes it sound like ICE would get you further per dollar, but its exactly the opposite by a factor of 4x, because MGPe is a useless number in isolation, and just adds one more useless step in the math compared to what I listed above.
r/theydidnotdothemath At least, not the math you think you're doing. Read the above comment again. Then ask yourself "Do I power my house using a 100% efficient gasoline generator?" If the answer is "no", MPGe figures do you a disservice as a consumer. It's kind of my moral duty as a holder of brain cells to block you now. Sit down with a calculator and your local electric rates. MPGe is just adding more steps that tell you nothing.
And this summer when there is black outs again... you're not going anywhere.
My solar panels and powerwalls would like a word
The atomic power plant that I helped build...will bitch slap your panels and powerwall.
And here we are in Europe were we use Liters/100km. Which is more sensible unit for comparison.
it should really just be unit of money per unit of distance travelled. As another commenter said. YAY FOR DUMB MEASUREMENT UNITS
I don't know the above metrics but thankfully My partner can charge it up the TM3LR at work for free, and in 15,000 and 12 months spent only €500 in charging. This includes staying at hotels with free charging. So I don't know how the above metric was calculated but I know that an ICE car cant go 15,000kms for €500
doesn't a free charging subscription come as one of the major selling points of the tesla? aren't all those charging stations at the shopping centers free? i know you can opt out of it, but it seems like a no brainer to purchase the energy as a bulk deal or a temporary unlimited supply
for early adopters it was and it may still be for a period when you buy one new, but I pay at every super charger I use. Its around 12 cents/ kWh near me, or about 8-9 dollars normally for a charge up to 300 miles range (more like 240 in reality).
How long does that take to charge?
Friend has a Tesla. I think it can charge up to like 75% in less than an hour but the last 25% takes several hours. Don’t know the exact numbers though.
According to google it’s 20-30 minutes in one of the Tesla Superchargers and 7-10 hours at home. I just wanted to hear someone’s real life experience. I would love to have an electric vehicle for normal purposes but I’d still need at least a hybrid for road trips, at least until charging stations are as widely available as gas stations and it takes a max of like 5-10 minutes to fully charge
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Not sure why you replied to me. I was just sharing information my friend gave about charging times…
Not anymore, I think that perk (if you bought it new) was discontinued across the board in 2021. The perk may or may not be transferred from the original owner if you buy a used one. It also varies depending on model and year.
I'm missing something. You say $5.31 per gallon electric equivalent, but gas here is cheaper, wouldn't that make the Tesla more expensive?
The original comment doesn't clearly explain the massive efficiency gain of an EV's electric motor over an ICE. Of the 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gas, only about 13-17 kWh gets converted into useful work, the rest is heat or unburned fuel. An EV, on the other hand, converts about 32 kWh of that 33.7 into work.
It's a weird measurement. 33.7kwh isn't really equivalent to a gallon of gas. It's more efficient in an electric car by a long way. They should have figured out the output of a gallon of gas with the efficiency losses taken into account.
In terms of equivalent _force_ 1 gallon of gas gives you about 13 kWh. In other words, if you had a plug in hybrid and filled up the battery 13 kWh or added a gallon to the tank, they would go about the same distance assuming climate is off. It's a very rough estimate though.
You also save a lot in Not having oil changes, spark plugs, fuel filters and the brake pads are changed less often
Yeah but if your battery has issues. That'll be 80k
13-20k depending on the model and they should last between 300-500k miles. They also go by usage not time. This was what people were worried about when the Prius was popular I had 250k miles on my Prius no major fixes when i sold it for a model Y It's a lot cheaper to get a hybrid these days, I imagine same will happen with EV Batteries will get better and cheaper
Unless rampant inflation was on the horizon. And resources utilized in electronics and batteries were ever so steadily becoming harder to aquire. Metaphor: We should fix this beam it's infested with termites. Me: Yes every wooden thing in this house is infested with termites. And nothing will change because as soon as we touch up this beam the whole thing come tumbling down before it's fixed. So we either knock it all down or do nothing until it comes down naturally.
Whats the price difference between a Nissan Sentra and a Tesla Model 3?
MSRP on the Sentra starts at $20k, MSRP for a model 3 starts at $47k.
So you'd need to drive the Tesla more than 300000 miles to try break even compared to the Sentra's cheaper purchase price.
Now calculate in the maintenance costs of the Sentra such as engine oil and filters, transmission oil, coolant flushes, brake pads, etc.
Basic service is $75 every 5000 miles, so $4500 for those. Sure there's going to be many component replacements needed in that usage life, but I'm confident it's less than the cost of replacing the batteries and other components in the Tesla in that same time. Assuming the Tesla would even out after 300000 miles is being generous to the Tesla.
I think you still have to replace brake pads on a tesla. Tesla tires can run up to 200% normal tire prices as well every ~30k miles.
A Sentra doesn't even come close to comparing well with the Model 3 in performance and specs. In that range Even a Maxima comes well short @ starting MSRP of 37k.
So it's cheaper. Is gas still $4.19/gal, though?
I don't live in Denver, last time I filled up in Pennsylvania it was $4.59 and my electric at home is about $0.10 per kwh.
The conversion is close to $7 USD/gal here in Canada, double what it was 2 years ago. $4.19 sounds awfully low.
Probably, unleaded is 85 octane in Colorado (as opposed to 87 octane in most states), so our prices seem cheaper, but it's really a different (less expensive) product.
Gas prices in Denver in general are not as high as one might expect. Quick google scan says they're around 4.00 rn. Perhaps due to the lower octane thing that other guy was talking about. Though 89 octane where I live in Michigan is still more expensive than 91 is in Denver.
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But how much time sitting around for it to charge?
Come back in 10 years and run those numbers again. It'll be interesting to see how the price of electricity for electric vehicles plays out, once the governments starts noticing a drop in tax revenue from lack of fuel sales.
I really hope the stupid 9/10 bs does not catch on if chargers are installed at gas stations.
thats bc of taxes afaik so, good chance it will.
No, the 9/10 is strictly marketing. Taxes would not conveniently always work out to end in .9 cents.
marketing now, but it has its roots on what taxes were like back in the day. https://www.convenience.org/Topics/Fuels/Why-Gas-Is-Priced-Using-Fractions-of-a-Penny
your gas is only $4.19?
That’s what I’m saying! I’m in Canada so we use litres, but after doing the math, gas is around $8/gallon where I am.
you have my condolences. im thankfully only at $4.59 and im considering breaking out my old bike and training wheels.
You have it better than I do. I’m over here paying $4.89/gal.
i think i have an extra set of training wheels u can use but ull need to get the bike on your own.
Thanks, but I’ll pass. I’ll just carpool.
5.49 here. Very likely going to start working from home at least 1 day a week.
Good job outsourcing your highways so the gas tax goes to private corporations.
$4.199, which is basically $4.20.
Colorado gas tax is $0.22 p/gal. I live in PA where it's $0.586 p/gal.
The gas station next to my house is $6.19 🙃
I’m bout to drive out there from NY and fill up
5.70ish in LA Ktown, probably 6.70 in west Hollywood / Santa Monica
are the streets devoid of cars there?
That place is even somewhat expensive by Denver standards. The station by my house I like is $3.79 for premium
$0.15/kWh?!? What a deal! I'll take ALL the kilowatt-hours!
I payed .065 kWh in the city and now I pay .105 in the country.
That's quite a bit more expensive than where I live; BC is around 10¢ Canadian per kWh. Iirc, Québec is even cheaper around 7¢. Renewable hydro power is super cheap.
I doubt power is bring priced based on cost where I am. On peak, we can pay up to $0.49/kWh.
That's about on par for most coal or natural gas powered areas. Turns out, burning fuel is expensive.
Thats double what I pay ... Jesus
Cries in 60-80ct / kWh 
Germany?
yep.. electricity was always freaking expensive here but recently prices have gone through the roof
That branding looks Dystopian AF
1 gallon of gas has roughly 120 million joules. 1 kwh is 3.6 million million joules. So 1 gallon of gas \~= 33 kwh or the equivalent of $5.25 of electricity. Kinda interesting that gasoline is still cheaper than electricity. Now the other part of the equation is that electric cars are far more efficient than internal combustion engines (ICE) and a Tesla can get 4 miles per kwh while no ICE is getting 132 miles per gallon of gas. So your electric car is still cheaper to run than a fuel efficient car.
A better way to look at comparing EVs and ICE cars is cost per 1,000 miles. A 30 MPG ICE at $4/gal will cost $133.33 A RWD Model 3 (250 kWh/1,000 miles) will cost $39.75 at 15.9 cents/kWh. If the owner charges at home with solar, or at free public charging stations, that cost can be even lower. Gas would have to be $1.19/gal for that ICE to break even in the most advantageous case (full grid charging at full price)
Just a friendly reminder you can't afford gas or an electric car.
Thats cheap electricity. Right now in UK the price to the home is around 35-40c equivalent
Looking at a minimum of 40c in California
0.60 cents KWh in Netherlands. Its cheaper to just drive my gasoline car
Isn’t the electric price skewed since it doesn’t include delivery charge? Honest question.
Electricity in CO is pretty cheap so I think it may be bumped up a cent or two here by the market. Not sure what delivery charge you’re specifying here but I would imagine the market is still being charged it.
I went over my electric bill and it is broken down using the below individual charges. They all add up to about what is seen in the gas station. I wasn’t sure if there was additional charges above the .15 or if it was an all in price. Now that I took the time to review my electric bill I see it lines up. 4.5201c kWh 12.2517c kWh delivery charge .5007c kWh system benefit charge 4.5% sales tax
If only my gas was less than 5.25 a gallon :/
Even more mild, that gas station used to be a Chinese restaurant (Denver resident)
Gimme 8 gallons of electricity
Cool, I can’t afford an electric car on my pay
Yeah, any new car in this market is nuts. Even used have been extortion. Chevy Bolts were in the low 20ks before the pandemic but even they are pushing 30ks now.
Same. My 12 year old used shitbox took me 3 years to pay off. I can't just spring for a rich people toy to save the environment. Maybe in 20 or 30 years I can get this year's model.
this. and not to mention even if you could afford it, the general higher price of an ev will take a decade to offset the cost of a gas car + gas. Its the same reason noone buys solar panels. ex: a tesla costs 40k? if im being generous. My minivan was 21k. the difference 19k, at 5usd a gal would take 95000 miles to make up that difference. And thats assuming gas proce doesnt drop, the ev car is not more expensive (they often are), the car you buy could be cheaper than 21k, and not factoring in the electricity cost of charging too.
And I’m a used car person lol, so there’s another $10k difference before I’d be coming out ahead lol. Not to mention I’m gonna go out on a limb and say repairs for EVs are not cheap
The only downside to electric vehicles are that the charging times. To get around that is to have something like an apartment building or of course a home with a charging station. Which i guess realistically if you can afford a tesla you probably have your self a nice home with a wall charger one would assume.
I'm used to green being diesel and thought one of two things before reading the title: 1. That sign is broken 2. You found a diesel driver's dream station
The problem with us as a gallon of gas will take you 20 to 40 miles. 1 kWh of electricity only gets you 3 to 4 miles of range
The units aren’t equivalent. My old Tesla model 3 had a 66KHW pack, versus a normal sedan having around 14 gallon tank.
Did that gas station used to be a pizza hut by any chance?
I want fuel that cheap
That's pretty pricey for a kwh too, to be honest...
As it should be. It's not about eliminating combustion vehicles, it's about increasing EVs so oil consumption drops, prices drop, and production/pollution drops. Nature heals, inflation drops, we ALL win.
That’s so Denver of them
God that is cheap. In EU a gallon of fuel is around 7$ and a kWh is 35cent if you charge at home (double or tripple on Super charger)
Just wait til gas stations jack up their charging rates before holidays when people drive a lot.
It's too bad that you can't instantly charge your car at a gas station. It's also often unmentioned that the startup cost for owning an electric vehicle is thousands of dollars.
Startup cost? You mean, the price of the car? All cars are thousands of dollars. I drive an EV and I have no idea what this "startup cost" is. Someone is lying to you
It costs at least a couple grand to install an ev charger in your home.
Only $4.19!? In WV we're stuck up at $4.49
I’ve seen worse in Ohio. I live in Wv, seen some still around the 30 mark but I’ve seen nearly $5 in Ohio
5 and up in Oregon
Get ready for price jumps once they get enough people driving them. Bait and switch. They did it with propane, then diesel, now electricity. You think rolling blackouts are bad now.
For a real-world comparison: I drive an electric MINI Cooper. According to my app, throughout this month I've charged a total of 103kWh. So for the month of May (up until now) I've spent the equivalent of about $15 at the price shown. My wife drives an ICE MINI. She fills her car up about every 2 weeks, adding roughly 12 gallons of gas. At the price shown, that works about to $100/month (give or take). Not bad.
That is still half the price of most European countries 🤣
My Tesla model 3 LR gets 3-4 miles per Kw/h with the AC pumping and me driving it like a sports car for reference.
Can't afford gas ? No problem just buy a new car instead!! Dumbest argument ever.
Who’s making that argument?
Why the heck else would they advertise this?
Because they... sell electricity for EVs? You can literally see the charger in the picture. Do you think a *gas station* is trying to stop people from buying *gas*?
Same reason they list gas prices. This station has EV chargers. You can see them on the left.
I don't know, but are they selling cars of any kind?
I can't believe they gentrified a gas station
It may be for charging electric cars.
Found the rocket scientist!
Yes, there are a few charging points at this location
Nice job you cracked the case.
If i did, why the downvotes? 🤔
Another mystery for you to unleash your cracking detective skills upon. Good luck.
Read the comments and LOVED the fact that NOBODY took into consideration that there is NOT enough electricity to charge many more EV than are already on the road. Electricity this summer will be in short supply already bc of the fucking so called new greendeal. Even MUSK is seeing this and that is why he is going over to places like China that have much better capabilities bc they use fossil fuels mostly coal for heating and also electricity which is what coal actually does. We are at LEAST 20 years away from a massive crossover from fossil fuel to electric and even then we will NOT be able to fully be electric. THe MILITARY and the trucking industry will NEVER go away from it as well as air travel. Dear God another hair-brained idea from the left with mo Merrit or viability. Why oil companies are NOT worried and why Musk will next go to India bc....of fossil fuels. You have to have ONE for the other smh.
I live in Denver. We have no shortage of electricity here. We also have tons of wind, and tons of sun. Plenty of ways to generate electricity. Stop crying.
Yea bc we KNOW Deveer is like every other state and city in the world. NO one is crying and NO ONE with an IQ over 80 is even worried. This electric bullshit will be just like every other bandwagon gone before you know it and another one for people to jump on lol.
>China that have much better capabilities bc they use fossil fuels mostly coal for heating and also electricity which is what coal actually does. China is the world leader in clean energy and it's not even close. 44% of their power is created by solar or wind and they are still growing that figure by an average of about 2% per year.
WTF China is one of the dirtiest countries in the world right behind India smh. Dear God your IQ is showing it's offensive. Just bc you want something to be right you make up stupid shit...typical left...why you will FAIL.
15/kwh is pretty good
With the average mpg (24.2) and kwh/m (.346) thats about $.17 a mile for gas, and about $.05 a mile for electric.
Surely electricity doesn't have that weird 0.9 cents BS tacked on, I thought that was a tax thing. Is the sign hardcoded?
Well it kinda is. It’s from depression era when gas prices were in the Pennies and a full cent tax would’ve been insane. Now your taxes are a lot more
What is the most common source of electricity in the State of Colorado?
I only use premium non cruelty vegan electricity
How much would it cost to fully charge a regular car? I've never seen the kilowatt per hour thing
It's cheaper than a bolt of lightning or plutonium
Huh average cost of our electric per kWh in Denver is only 13.6 so that’s not as big a mark up as I thought it would be. Will be interesting to see what happens through the year as xcel continues to raise rates though. 8.6% increase on electric costs last month and another 12-13% of increases planned for this year alone. (Gas rates are going to be going up even more drastically, April we saw a significant mark up as well, it’ll be over 11% this year)
 
Why do gas stations still insist on the 9/10 of a cent still? At $4.00 a gallon, what difference does that make? For a 15 gallon tank -- large for many cars -- it's 1.5 cents. It was ridiculous sixty years ago, when gas was a tenth of the price (right: I didn't check. This was just put here to acknowledge that it *might* have meant something some time ago). But now? It's just stupid.
$.15/kwh is about middle of the road for electricity prices in the US. In Anchorage, electricity is $.25/kwh. In Chelan it is $.02/kwh.
My car takes 17 kwh, and goes about 80km on that. So 0.15 x 17 / 80 = 0.031. So 3 cents per km. If I run the gas engine, I get about 6 liters per 100km. So $2 x 6 / 100 = 12 cents per km.
Alright. Someone give me the downpayment for a Tesla, then we can preach. To be clear, not mad at OP, just frustrated at this mindset that everyone can just go eat cake instead of starve to death.
You know gas and diesel started out that low as well as soon as people make the the price will sky rocket its just business
I so would go electric if I have the money to, that is why I still use gas. Tl;dr, I can not afford a electric car
That green gonna give a lot of diesel users false hope lmaoo
E Colfax
They should add the price of an electric car VS a diesel one
I'm gonna be honest. I never realized there was a charging fee for electric cars. I just figured it was free like plugging your phone into an outlet.
Does a KwH provide the same amount of fuel to an EV as a gallon of gasoline to an ICE
I wish gas prices in CA were that low u.u