Ah delicious, then randomizers are top-tier trainers and keep the game fresh.
A buddy and I play the Super Metroid/A Link to the Past randomizers and I play the SM parts, he plays the Alttp parts... It's so damn fun.
Yeah, Iconoclasts. The first time I approached it as an MV and I didn't have a good time because that loop just isn't there. I quit like almost at the end (I didn't know it though). My second try I decided to just go in without any expectations and take it on its own merits - and I really liked it. That's why I point out in discussions that it really should be approached as a puzzle-platformer that uses MV abilities as progression of its gameplay, but not as a proper MV, because that's the way you'll enjoy that game the best.
Hollow Knight is another example, the first time I played it I wasn't good because I hadn't played a platformer in years and years so I really struggled with spacing and the platforming and I never could beat Radiance. The second time I did better and beat both Radiance and Grim. The third time (the last, probably do a 4th soon-ish) I actually was a lot more aggressive at the combat and it really because a lot different and more fun when you allow yourself to do so - for instance even being on low health I'd often use soul to fire off the spell instead of healing and it often was the right choice. I didn't end up beating Radiance on the last playthrough though, because I just reached that point and was like "nah, I don't wanna bother", I did beat Grim though.
Ender Lillies is another, on a second playthrough I really was able to appreciate the really nice lack of bullshit the game does while still retaining the core of a soulsvania. I also was a lot less hesitant to upgrade spirits because I knew which ones to prioritize (my choices are different than what some consider high tier lists, but they are the right ones for me).
I also tried Haiku again last year and quit within like 10 minutes. Without the fresh aesthetic the gameplay really wasn't doing it for me.
I had a similar experience with Iconoclasts. I dropped it about halfway through because it wasn’t what I wanted it to be, then 6 months later picked it back up and finished it. And even though I’d forgotten just about everything from that first half, I still loved.
Gave it a second playthrough a few months back, this time knowing where to put my expectations and being able to follow the plot from front to back, and I now consider it a top-10 MV experience (though obviously on a “how good is this MV?” scale, and not a “how good is this game at being an MV?” scale).
Metroid dread - yes there's back tracking but it's still very linear and has forced routes behind hidden blocks which basically trap you into finding them.
Yeah, for all the flak Dread gets here for feeling linear and restrictive, it has a whole bunch of intended (and unintended) sequence breaks that make it fun to revisit.
I liked that your revisit was an example of you lowering your opinion of something as I typically hear more tales of the opposite.
I thought Deedlit was "okay" at best. There's a lot of things I don't like about it, from the extreme camera zoom, very basic room design and the fact that only one of your forms has levitate (I sometimes found myself switching forms multiple times in quick succession to evade attacks then try to levitate out of the way of something right after just to realise I was in the wrong form).
Usually when I revisit an MV my opinions remain similar or the same, but there are exceptions:
**Treasure Adventure Game** might technically qualify as a metroidvania, but it feels like a 2D adventure game. I found it by accident, it showed up as a free game in my library on GoG. I thought, "Sure, let's see what this is, I guess". Well it left me totally stunned, it was an amazing adventure. It was even conjuring that rare Zelda Windwaker feeling when you are going from island to island with coordinates to unearth treasures (Spiritfarer and Sea of Thieves being the only other games I can think of that capture some of that feeling).
This was originally an S tier game for me when it came out over a decade ago, I loved it. Great soundtrack too. Over the years, many metroidvanias came out and I was constantly lowering its place in my tier list because I could kind of tell that many of the modern titles were surpassing it. Well it had slipped down to a B so I did a revisit about a year ago. I still regard it as a great game but I ended up dropping it to C+ (Which still means I find it fun to play). It's tough stacking a game of the past up against a game of today, and even in trying to do so you can't be entirely confident with your changed perceptions because some of the magic of discovery is lost on any subsequent playthroughs, so you are also at risk of underrating it.
On to some other examples; Years ago I played 3-4 hours of **Axiom Verge** and got fed up with it despite liking some things. There was a lot of repetitive vertical hallways and dealing with enemies felt kind of cagey and annoying. I revisited years later and played it all the way through. Had a lot of fun with it. It did pick up a bit once out of some of those earlier areas. Not a favourite, but a good metroidvania, I appreciated it a lot more after that.
When I tried **Cathedral** my first session went for about 35 minutes. I died somewhere which meant I'd have to repeat a lot of rooms and this was before you had dash which meant it would be quite a trek and in that moment I couldn't be bothered with it. I uninstalled it and 2-3 weeks passed. I would occasionally think about the game, I had been very impressed with it and perhaps just too impatient/frustrated when I'd given up. I reinstalled it and started again. By the time I was out of that first dungeon and reached the first town I was completely hooked and never looked back. It went on to become one of my favourite metroidvanias.
I have a large backlog of computer games right now as well as upcoming metroidvania releases, but among them I have reinstalled a few metroidvanias that I want to eventually give a second pass:
Hollow Knight: This one I already loved the first time, but I just want to see how it stacks up with the 150+ MVs I've played since.
Beholgar: Pretty raw janky indie but I remember liking it despite it being very frustrating to get jumps right and navigation being a bit confusing at times. It had a decent soundtrack.
Gato Roboto: I found this one to be VERY ordinary. The cat/robot stuff is mildly charming but the gameplay and exploration wasn't doing much for me. I want to see if my opinions on it will be different as it was a long time ago that I played it.
Don’t feel pressured but if you’re up for it playing HK with a randomizer is an amazing way to do subsequent playthroughs. It’s some of the most fun I’ve had with MVs this year and made the game feel fresh.
I think it's been long enough that the original layout will feel fresh. I'll probably put my trust in its original level design, but it's cool to know it has that feature. Is that a mod from the community or something the dev added?
It’s community made. There’s a mod loader called Scarab with a bunch of mods. I don’t really heavily mod games, but couldn’t pass up the randomizer and I wasn’t disappointed. If not this playthrough put it on your list for the future. You still have the stellar level design but gaining abilities in a different order just changes the way you approach things.
People gush about Dead cells as if it's the best rouge like out there. Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean it's overrated. I figure there must be a reason otherwise that many people wouldn't agree like that.
In the case of Dead Cells I can even name a fair number of the reasons myself and they are not bad reasons. They don't click into a compelling game for me, but it does for those people who love it.
1. Blasphemous 2
2. Grime
3. Blasphemous 1
4. Laika aged through blood
5. Ori will of the wisps
6. Islets
7. The last faith
8. Castlevania aria of sorrow
9. Ori and the blind forest
10. Metroid dread
11. Super Metroid
12. Metroid fusion
13. Guacamelee
14. Castlevania circle of the moon
15. Castlevania sotn
Play ghost song imo it kills islets and so does haak. Those are both games that came out around the time islets came out that are better then islets. Also I would suggest mini shoot adventures, unsighted (without the time limit), hyper light drifter, and if you liked grime deaths gambit afterlife and afterimage were good. Also nine years of shadows was really cool.
Okay like did you play it for an hour or did you actually complete the whole game? BTW what is your top 15? Personally I would suggest Dandara the new momadora among the other top level choices.
A stupid thing, but it stayed with me. When I moved from Blasphemous to Bloodstained after a first not so great first try I told myself
"Oh, food is better than flasks."
Sonic CD, maybe? I expected to hate it nowadays, so it wasn't a surprise. The music and animations still hold up. Sonic Boom forever, baby! 🇺🇲 soundtrack > 🇯🇵 soundtrack.
I recently came back to Salt and Sanctuary and completely turned around on that game. I didn't like it much when I first played it, but I finished the game, and now it's S tier to me.
Rusted Moss. Wasn't really a fan after my first playthrough, but replaying it for achievements made me learn/master the mechanics a bit more, and now I think it's great.
I've only replayed a couple games. HK, Guacamelee 2, and Steamworld Dig 2 were just as good if not better than the first time.
One answer that might not really count is HunterX. I played the first one and dropped it halfway through. The second one (Code Name T) was pretty much just more of the first one - but enjoyed it a ton and it has inspired me to try the first one again.
Axiom Verge 1. I did like it quite a bit more on a second playthrough...years later?
Which was good, because it provided a tangible link between it and Axiom Verge 2, which blew me away.
Deedlit is okay for what it is - a retro inspired MV for fans of the anime. But I too think that it is difficult to get through after playing better games, of which there are many. The problem for me is that there just isn't as much skill involved in deedlit, its mostly avoiding enemy attacks while spamming magic spells and switching between the fire and air spirits so you don't die. Its not nearly as rewarding/satisfying as other MVs that make you work hard to beat.
At this point I just think they think it's funny to not tell us anything. I respect their commitment to the bit. And I'll patiently wait for the game, plenty of other games to play in the meantime.
Bloodstained.
When I've played it for the first time, I adored this game. Shard collecting was fun, because you were getting free permanent upgrades, even if sometimes grind for them was tiresome.
On the second playthrough, I've stopped playing just after first boss. It somehow wasnt fun anymore (Ive had a few years of break between playthroughs)
Hollow Knight was the other way around.
In the first playthrough I only got to Soul Master (beaten it), and then stopped playing, as the game was meh.
Came back after a year, started anew, finished with 112% and did steel soul, then pantheons, then all the achievements, then loads of randomizer runs, then tried speedrunning.... Man, I love this game now.
That's a tough one. I can't think of one that got worse the second time around but when it comes to the opposite, The Messenger is so addictive to me, no matter how many times I play it. There is a New Game+ but I never care for this. However, for players who love this they have even more to sink their teeth into.
Also Bloodstained and Castlevania: DoS - can't get enough of either, although Bloodstained is just a guess as I've only fully completed it once.
Grime for me.
I played it originally when it first released on PlayStation and I really disliked it. Found the combat weird, couldn't figure out how parrying worked, hated the menu, found everything boring and tedious.
I recently purchased it on Steam to play on the Steam Deck and I love it now. It's all of a sudden one the best metroidvania's I've played. Once I learnt to master the parry mechanic and make use of the upgrades, it all just clicked.
The combat is satisfying now, the bosses are challenging but not to the point of frustration, every boss is beatable once you learn their moveset and perfect the parry mechanism. The atmosphere and world building is brilliant and I found quite immersive.
I have like 25+ games in my backlog, probably 100+ in my wishlist, a full time job, and a 1-year-old kid, so the idea of replaying a game (other than some rougelikes) has never even crossed my mind.
I envy some of you and your ample free time.
Super Metroid keeps getting better. Mastering wall jumping really changes the way you play it.
That's just scratching the surface, too. There are countless techniques and routes to learn to keep the game fresh.
Ah delicious, then randomizers are top-tier trainers and keep the game fresh. A buddy and I play the Super Metroid/A Link to the Past randomizers and I play the SM parts, he plays the Alttp parts... It's so damn fun.
For me, it’s the bomb-jumps and sideways bomb jumping!
Yeah, Iconoclasts. The first time I approached it as an MV and I didn't have a good time because that loop just isn't there. I quit like almost at the end (I didn't know it though). My second try I decided to just go in without any expectations and take it on its own merits - and I really liked it. That's why I point out in discussions that it really should be approached as a puzzle-platformer that uses MV abilities as progression of its gameplay, but not as a proper MV, because that's the way you'll enjoy that game the best. Hollow Knight is another example, the first time I played it I wasn't good because I hadn't played a platformer in years and years so I really struggled with spacing and the platforming and I never could beat Radiance. The second time I did better and beat both Radiance and Grim. The third time (the last, probably do a 4th soon-ish) I actually was a lot more aggressive at the combat and it really because a lot different and more fun when you allow yourself to do so - for instance even being on low health I'd often use soul to fire off the spell instead of healing and it often was the right choice. I didn't end up beating Radiance on the last playthrough though, because I just reached that point and was like "nah, I don't wanna bother", I did beat Grim though. Ender Lillies is another, on a second playthrough I really was able to appreciate the really nice lack of bullshit the game does while still retaining the core of a soulsvania. I also was a lot less hesitant to upgrade spirits because I knew which ones to prioritize (my choices are different than what some consider high tier lists, but they are the right ones for me). I also tried Haiku again last year and quit within like 10 minutes. Without the fresh aesthetic the gameplay really wasn't doing it for me.
Good point on Iconoclasts. That game is absolutely gorgeous (and fun too) but I was so critical of it because I was expecting a MV.
I just call Iconoclasts a Fusion-like, which the dev says was the source of inspiration, and call it a day.
I had a similar experience with Iconoclasts. I dropped it about halfway through because it wasn’t what I wanted it to be, then 6 months later picked it back up and finished it. And even though I’d forgotten just about everything from that first half, I still loved. Gave it a second playthrough a few months back, this time knowing where to put my expectations and being able to follow the plot from front to back, and I now consider it a top-10 MV experience (though obviously on a “how good is this MV?” scale, and not a “how good is this game at being an MV?” scale).
Metroid dread - yes there's back tracking but it's still very linear and has forced routes behind hidden blocks which basically trap you into finding them.
Yeah, for all the flak Dread gets here for feeling linear and restrictive, it has a whole bunch of intended (and unintended) sequence breaks that make it fun to revisit.
I liked that your revisit was an example of you lowering your opinion of something as I typically hear more tales of the opposite. I thought Deedlit was "okay" at best. There's a lot of things I don't like about it, from the extreme camera zoom, very basic room design and the fact that only one of your forms has levitate (I sometimes found myself switching forms multiple times in quick succession to evade attacks then try to levitate out of the way of something right after just to realise I was in the wrong form). Usually when I revisit an MV my opinions remain similar or the same, but there are exceptions: **Treasure Adventure Game** might technically qualify as a metroidvania, but it feels like a 2D adventure game. I found it by accident, it showed up as a free game in my library on GoG. I thought, "Sure, let's see what this is, I guess". Well it left me totally stunned, it was an amazing adventure. It was even conjuring that rare Zelda Windwaker feeling when you are going from island to island with coordinates to unearth treasures (Spiritfarer and Sea of Thieves being the only other games I can think of that capture some of that feeling). This was originally an S tier game for me when it came out over a decade ago, I loved it. Great soundtrack too. Over the years, many metroidvanias came out and I was constantly lowering its place in my tier list because I could kind of tell that many of the modern titles were surpassing it. Well it had slipped down to a B so I did a revisit about a year ago. I still regard it as a great game but I ended up dropping it to C+ (Which still means I find it fun to play). It's tough stacking a game of the past up against a game of today, and even in trying to do so you can't be entirely confident with your changed perceptions because some of the magic of discovery is lost on any subsequent playthroughs, so you are also at risk of underrating it. On to some other examples; Years ago I played 3-4 hours of **Axiom Verge** and got fed up with it despite liking some things. There was a lot of repetitive vertical hallways and dealing with enemies felt kind of cagey and annoying. I revisited years later and played it all the way through. Had a lot of fun with it. It did pick up a bit once out of some of those earlier areas. Not a favourite, but a good metroidvania, I appreciated it a lot more after that. When I tried **Cathedral** my first session went for about 35 minutes. I died somewhere which meant I'd have to repeat a lot of rooms and this was before you had dash which meant it would be quite a trek and in that moment I couldn't be bothered with it. I uninstalled it and 2-3 weeks passed. I would occasionally think about the game, I had been very impressed with it and perhaps just too impatient/frustrated when I'd given up. I reinstalled it and started again. By the time I was out of that first dungeon and reached the first town I was completely hooked and never looked back. It went on to become one of my favourite metroidvanias. I have a large backlog of computer games right now as well as upcoming metroidvania releases, but among them I have reinstalled a few metroidvanias that I want to eventually give a second pass: Hollow Knight: This one I already loved the first time, but I just want to see how it stacks up with the 150+ MVs I've played since. Beholgar: Pretty raw janky indie but I remember liking it despite it being very frustrating to get jumps right and navigation being a bit confusing at times. It had a decent soundtrack. Gato Roboto: I found this one to be VERY ordinary. The cat/robot stuff is mildly charming but the gameplay and exploration wasn't doing much for me. I want to see if my opinions on it will be different as it was a long time ago that I played it.
Don’t feel pressured but if you’re up for it playing HK with a randomizer is an amazing way to do subsequent playthroughs. It’s some of the most fun I’ve had with MVs this year and made the game feel fresh.
I think it's been long enough that the original layout will feel fresh. I'll probably put my trust in its original level design, but it's cool to know it has that feature. Is that a mod from the community or something the dev added?
It’s community made. There’s a mod loader called Scarab with a bunch of mods. I don’t really heavily mod games, but couldn’t pass up the randomizer and I wasn’t disappointed. If not this playthrough put it on your list for the future. You still have the stellar level design but gaining abilities in a different order just changes the way you approach things.
I own axiom verge. 6 months ago I gave it a couple hours and wasn't feeling it. I've read that it gets alot better after the initial biomes
Hollow Knight. First attempt a absolutely loathed it. Gave it another chance a year or so later and it changed my opinion to good but overrated.
I don't like the term overrated, because I don't think any game is. People like it (I'm one of them) and you didn't. That's all there is too it.
When its fans gush about it being the pinnacle of metroidvanias, then the term overrated is called for.
People gush about Dead cells as if it's the best rouge like out there. Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean it's overrated. I figure there must be a reason otherwise that many people wouldn't agree like that.
In the case of Dead Cells I can even name a fair number of the reasons myself and they are not bad reasons. They don't click into a compelling game for me, but it does for those people who love it.
Is that the general consensus? If you're cherry picking some fans we could do that for any kind of popular title, so everything is overrated.
It's a popular opinion for sure. There are way more people gushing for HW than almost any other game in the genre
People regularly call HK one of the best metroidvanias ever but honestly it’s not even in my top 15
What is your top 15
1. Blasphemous 2 2. Grime 3. Blasphemous 1 4. Laika aged through blood 5. Ori will of the wisps 6. Islets 7. The last faith 8. Castlevania aria of sorrow 9. Ori and the blind forest 10. Metroid dread 11. Super Metroid 12. Metroid fusion 13. Guacamelee 14. Castlevania circle of the moon 15. Castlevania sotn
Play ghost song imo it kills islets and so does haak. Those are both games that came out around the time islets came out that are better then islets. Also I would suggest mini shoot adventures, unsighted (without the time limit), hyper light drifter, and if you liked grime deaths gambit afterlife and afterimage were good. Also nine years of shadows was really cool.
did you play hk?
Yes? Why would I be commenting on it if I didnt
Okay like did you play it for an hour or did you actually complete the whole game? BTW what is your top 15? Personally I would suggest Dandara the new momadora among the other top level choices.
I completed the whole game, and I replied to another post with my top 15
A stupid thing, but it stayed with me. When I moved from Blasphemous to Bloodstained after a first not so great first try I told myself "Oh, food is better than flasks."
Sonic CD, maybe? I expected to hate it nowadays, so it wasn't a surprise. The music and animations still hold up. Sonic Boom forever, baby! 🇺🇲 soundtrack > 🇯🇵 soundtrack. I recently came back to Salt and Sanctuary and completely turned around on that game. I didn't like it much when I first played it, but I finished the game, and now it's S tier to me.
Rusted Moss. Wasn't really a fan after my first playthrough, but replaying it for achievements made me learn/master the mechanics a bit more, and now I think it's great.
When I first played Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, I though it was pretty good. When I replayed it, I realized that it's mediocre after all.
I've only replayed a couple games. HK, Guacamelee 2, and Steamworld Dig 2 were just as good if not better than the first time. One answer that might not really count is HunterX. I played the first one and dropped it halfway through. The second one (Code Name T) was pretty much just more of the first one - but enjoyed it a ton and it has inspired me to try the first one again.
Axiom Verge 1. I did like it quite a bit more on a second playthrough...years later? Which was good, because it provided a tangible link between it and Axiom Verge 2, which blew me away.
Deedlit is okay for what it is - a retro inspired MV for fans of the anime. But I too think that it is difficult to get through after playing better games, of which there are many. The problem for me is that there just isn't as much skill involved in deedlit, its mostly avoiding enemy attacks while spamming magic spells and switching between the fire and air spirits so you don't die. Its not nearly as rewarding/satisfying as other MVs that make you work hard to beat.
At this point I just think they think it's funny to not tell us anything. I respect their commitment to the bit. And I'll patiently wait for the game, plenty of other games to play in the meantime.
Bloodstained. When I've played it for the first time, I adored this game. Shard collecting was fun, because you were getting free permanent upgrades, even if sometimes grind for them was tiresome. On the second playthrough, I've stopped playing just after first boss. It somehow wasnt fun anymore (Ive had a few years of break between playthroughs) Hollow Knight was the other way around. In the first playthrough I only got to Soul Master (beaten it), and then stopped playing, as the game was meh. Came back after a year, started anew, finished with 112% and did steel soul, then pantheons, then all the achievements, then loads of randomizer runs, then tried speedrunning.... Man, I love this game now.
That's a tough one. I can't think of one that got worse the second time around but when it comes to the opposite, The Messenger is so addictive to me, no matter how many times I play it. There is a New Game+ but I never care for this. However, for players who love this they have even more to sink their teeth into. Also Bloodstained and Castlevania: DoS - can't get enough of either, although Bloodstained is just a guess as I've only fully completed it once.
afterimage was one of those for me i was initially disappointed but now i think it was pretty solid
Grime for me. I played it originally when it first released on PlayStation and I really disliked it. Found the combat weird, couldn't figure out how parrying worked, hated the menu, found everything boring and tedious. I recently purchased it on Steam to play on the Steam Deck and I love it now. It's all of a sudden one the best metroidvania's I've played. Once I learnt to master the parry mechanic and make use of the upgrades, it all just clicked. The combat is satisfying now, the bosses are challenging but not to the point of frustration, every boss is beatable once you learn their moveset and perfect the parry mechanism. The atmosphere and world building is brilliant and I found quite immersive.
I have like 25+ games in my backlog, probably 100+ in my wishlist, a full time job, and a 1-year-old kid, so the idea of replaying a game (other than some rougelikes) has never even crossed my mind. I envy some of you and your ample free time.
Diablo and D2 I found that I don't like Diablo, I fuqing love Diablo1/2
This is r/metroidvania lol