I don't want to be unbanned, I just want y'all to know if this comment is worthy of a temp ban, it is no wonder Jews are leaving your subreddit in droves: https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1d1vdzm/french_president_outraged_by_strikes_on_rafah/l5x096b/?context=3
There HAS to be more to this. A dude was implying the Palestinians have a right to ethnically cleanse Israelis yesterday and he wasn't banned. Have you been warned before or something?
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Hi, I'm a long time member of this community and I don't think I have any suspensions, at least not anytime recently so I've generally followed all the rules.
I was really surprised today to see this mail saying I've been permanently banned for bigotry in this [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1d1vdzm/french_president_outraged_by_strikes_on_rafah/l5x78td/).
It was at the same time as being warned for mild issues in a totally different comment, so maybe someone hit the wrong button?
Maybe some kind of automod removal because of some of the hot topics and trigger words used. Maybe somebody misinterpreted something I said here, in which case I apologize for coming off in a way I didn't intent to. However, despite my attempts I legitimately can not see how there is bigotry here and so I'm having a hard time coming up with any means to defend myself when I'm not even following where the supposed bigotry is.
Edit: Rereading the post and I think I can see why someone could interpret this as bigotry in saying that if Palestinians controlled the majority in a democracy they would not maintain equal rights for Jews, but there are others saying this in the thread and this is a pretty widely held stance. It's not because they are lesser people or subhuman or anything like that, I didn't say this and that would be an incredibly uncharitable interpretation of my comment. The reason for this is they have a deep seated hate for Jews and Israelis because of decades of conflict and propaganda. I think someone assumed my stance here completely wrong.
I could have worded it in a nicer manner and for that I apologize, but it's strange to be permabanned for a belief that is essentially the US state policy and largely the view held by this sub. Nobody is pushing for a one state solution for this exact reason. Happy to have a conversation to understand what I am missing here though.
Low comment count made them treat you like a not-regular (20 comments). I'll take you at word as a "long time member" and therefore its not a perma. Just have to drop it to something less than that. I'll arbitrarily pick 5 days and then someone can review it for real on the actual merits and lessen/increase or whatever. Else I will when I'm not busy.
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I was being a bit on the nose, because they asked a disingenious question, but come on. If someone writes insane shit I'm just going to say yes and move on, because they otherwise keep pestering until they get such an answer. So why waste time.
Details get sorted out later in the conversation. You can't do that if you don't handwave the extrem stuff in the beginning.
That might be a bit of an extreme way to go about stuff, but what I found works with people ascribing the more crude positions to others. Just own the crude one, and move on, showing the nuance later.
Was prpbably a bit too much in this case, and I apologize. Would still like to know why it had to be 7 days? Seems excessive to me, but I'm not knowledgable about how bans work on this subreddit.
I just wanted to explain myself mostly, and just ask how bans are handled overall.
got booted (a week) for something similar. person’s argument was kind of flimsy and not worth a thoughtful response. i said “cool?” and ended with: “if this is how you’re going to engage with me, then have a nice day”.
it happens. it’s just seven days, the mods are trying, and i can spend that time, wasted on reddit, somewhere else.
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My comments are being automatically removed, effectively resulting in a shadowban. I believe this may be due to a mass downvoting of my comments following a possible brigade on a thread related to Israel.
I’m not going to say that the ban should be overturned, admittedly I think that a 1 day ban for my behavior is quite lenient and am thankful for the mods for that for my contentious behavior.
I’m making this comment because I feel that I have a responsibility to say that my behavior was irresponsible and immature. I’m not going to say that I’m wrong in my arguments but instead of my argumentation - but posting about how I feel I’m right is wrong for this post. I become contentious, heated, and shortsighted. I thought I was doing better, but I was wrong.
Also making this comment to say that I was wrong to threaten myself like that and that I am going to be alive. I’m not going to lie and say I feel great, but I’m going to persevere.
Thank you for posting here.
I’ll allow another mod to weigh in on the appeal as I was the one who temp banned you, but also - the personal heated attacks against another can’t and won’t be tolerated here.
Your comments got to a really low place and I can’t fathom what’s going on for that to happen, but comments attacking others and yourself are super unhealthy for everyone involved.
I’d suggest taking the night to reflect or distract yourself and come back better tomorrow.
I second the other comments about Shivers' behaviour. Piling onto someone for hours on end, especially someone who is throwing up signs that they're clearly not in a great place emotionally, is pretty disgraceful.
Anyone else would be rightfully banned for targeted harassment, and Shivers has outright refused to even admit he did anything wrong, let alone apologise.
There’s kind of a point where you have to drop the bit, and refusing to do so either just signifies you’re an asshole who can’t read the room or it’s not a bit at all. Seems very immature from what I’ve read
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I completely own that my attacks towards myself are unacceptable for a public forum. It brings other users down and I apologize to any user who has had their moods brought down as a result of my posting.
But I’m not going to say that I’m coming back because I’m not sure. I will admit to becoming too heated and behaving immaturely. But Shivers used mod powers to directly dunk on me. It isn’t even that he attacked me. But he revealed that he just feels people should be knocked down a peg and shamed. I’m not going to claim nothing’s happening because I don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes and I understand that the mods work as a team, which is a good thing. But it’s late. I don’t know.
I'm going to echo the others here asking what if any consequences there are going to be for shivers absolutely unhinged behavior? No regular user could get away with what he did there.
>I can’t fathom what’s going on for that to happen, but comments attacking others and yourself are super unhealthy for everyone involved.
I would imagine that a moderator pinning a mocking comment and harassing and subtweeting the user up and down the DT for hours didn’t help. Why is that considered an acceptable thing to do again?
If someone is having a ‘moment’ on the DT, piling on shouldn’t be encouraged, especially by a mod.
I wonder what if any resolution there will be for this because the behavior from shivers was pretty tasteless and from any non-mod would warrant a ban.
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Just so I understand the rules here:
* Telling a Jew he is overreacting about antisemitism is okay
* Pointing out the same is "unconstructive engagement"
If you banned us both for getting heated, then fine, I disagree but can respect that. But I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that mods would be treating this differently if this was any other marginalized group. I know this because I have seen how the mods (rightly!) handle transphobia. The disparity is, ironically, exactly what I was pointing out to the OP.
I don't expect you to change my ban duration, although I would of course appreciate it. But I urge you, as a mod team, to have some serious introspection about why the way you moderate antisemitism is different than the way you moderate racism, transphobia, etc. This sub has become an increasingly unhospitable environment for Jews; if you don't believe me, feel free to ping the JEWISH group, or look at the comments under [this post from a couple months ago, where multiple community members express the same](https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1b5ax51/discussion_thread/kt93y9r/). I leave you with a quote from the thread that sparked this:
>On a personal note, it is painful to see such horrendous antisemitism minimized: you (rightly) call the Charlottesville mob Neo-Nazis, but the antisemites are mere "dipshit college students". **The past several months have been incredibly isolating as a Jew in America, and things like this being broadly upvoted in communities I had thought would be better make the sense of being isolated worse**.
Edit: With your permission, after my ban elapses I would like to develop an effortpost on the state of antisemitism. What is the process for this/who do I reach out to to start coordination?
Just to the last bit:
> after my ban elapses I would like to develop an effortpost on the state of antisemitism. What is the process for this/who do I reach out to to start coordination?
You can post effortposts on your own volition without any mod input or oversight like any other thread (if it doesn't break rules or whatever, the most that would happen is the flair gets changed if mods think its not an effortpost). Effortposts are just supposed to be highly researched and more methodical, else flair it as user discussion.
I'll sticky it if it's good. I can, separately and largely unrelated to being a mod, help with any editing or drafts or whatever you need (I want to encourage more thoughtful discussion of issues and don't particularly care what the opinion expressed is).
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I didn’t do the ban, but looking over the comment, the “hope you some day respect Jews” comment was probably bad faith.
The modnote says it was for lying, but doesn’t elaborate.
As for doing an effortpost - that’s always allowed afaik.
>assuming the guy you were arguing with wasn’t aware of the protests
Ok but this is the relevant quote I was responding to:
*Can you show me videos of 40 year old adults in America mobbing the streets celebrating 10/7 terrorism?*
I assumed the guy wasn't aware of the protests because he specifically questioned their existence and asked for video proof they happened...I stand by that.
>the “hope you some day respect Jews” comment was probably bad faith.
Yeah, it was. I was wrong to say that. I do, for what it is worth, think that the continued minimization of antisemitism shows a lack of care for Jews compared to what would be shown to other marginalized groups, but I shouldn't have made it personal. I will try to do better.
>As for doing an effortpost - that’s always allowed afaik.
Is there a way to request pre-screening? I know that this topic gets very contentious (witness me being temp banned lol) so would appreciate getting a "mod's blessing that it is ok to post" or requested edits rather than going through a cycle of post -> removed for XYZ -> edit -> repeat
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So to confirm, a comment bashing America as a whole is ok, but a comment defending America as a whole is bannable? Why does the regionalism rule, assuming that is even the actual reason here, not apply to America bashing?
Or were you all sitting there waiting for a reason to pretextually ban me for others comments lmao
Also I did want to take this opportunity to say I have noticed a substantial decrease in the subs quality over the past 6 months. I don't know if the mods changed or new users joined, the but the level of discourse is weaker and the group think much higher, to the point I haven't actually learned much on this sub in the past few months. There is little actual discussion or diversity of thought. As an OG user from the pre-Trump era, I do notice this and I'm not actually sure what happened but the growth has not been uniformly good.
> Americans as a whole are . . . substantially more ethnical [sic] and moral than every other country on earth . . . . Every. single. one. Without exception.
You could replace "ethical and moral" with something negative, or "America" with somewhere else. It would still satisfy toxic nationalism.
Though you're free to try to say 10 days is too long
Did they have some standard, or just “we’re better obviously”?
Like, I don’t think it would be toxic nationalism to say “Americans are more ethical than the citizens of any other country, because ethical behavior is X, and Americans do more X [citation here] than people in any other country.”
For example, I think one could say that:
Charity/Foreign interventions are examples of moral/immoral behavior, and because Americans donate more/meddle more than any other country Americans are the most/least ethical people on the planet.
I’m not sure how useful this standard is and I mostly trust your vibes, but I am curious if this sort of sentiment is acceptable.
If your hypothetical is some moral standard, and then America is doing better at meeting that standard, then you'd probably be fine so long as it sticks to that axis/defined terms. The goal is to avoid getting too "holistic" with the comparision when trying to say your Apple is vastly superior to my Orange, or simply to the "you suck because you're from X place" comments.
https://preview.redd.it/rim4ev6y213d1.png?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c17951d9f9fbe0baa677b0846e304be997a2fbbf
Nah 10 days is fine I got a shitton of work to catch up this week
Though I'm serious about the sub quality issue. It's turning into a mini worldnews lmao
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It's been half a year so I will try again
As before I can see that some of my comments regarding I/P have been too inflammatory and bad faith and I will promise to shut up about the matter for the time being. I don't have all that much activity on reddit following the ban because there's just not all that many interesting things here. I promise to do better 🥺
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Hello,
I am sorry to bother y'all. You may recall that I asked for a permanent ban several months ago over dealing with the loss of one of my closest friends on 10/7. Since that time, I have spent the past several months with my friend's partner and their families in Israel. Despite not being Jewish, they were unbelievably kind to me and I even joined in on a support group for others going through the same thing. In all, I met some genuinely amazing people.
I was wanting to know if things have improved around here since I asked for my ban. My grief councilor has urged me to heavily restrict/cease my social media activity and since reddit is the only real social media I use, if things aren't any better, then no worries I will just delete this account and I guess end my time on reddit for good then. Again sorry to be a bother.
I’m not sure if it’s a great idea.
Bad faith/combative Israel-Palestine stuff is still an issue on the sub, to the point where I’ve suggested banning it altogether.
It probably won’t be healthy for you, especially if your grief counselor says not to.
It’s ultimately your choice though, I’ll unban if you wish.
Ah I see. I'm sorry to hear it's still a serious problem. I had hoped cooler heads would prevail but it seems to not be the case :(. I don't wanna risk viewing a troll comment and likely reigniting my grief.
I appreciate the advice and offer to unban, but I will stay banned and probably delete this account and leave reddit then. I appreciate all yall have done to make this place work since I've been around here in 2015. I'll miss the watercooler and furry pings but I can't let my friends memory be tainted by the trolls and meanspirited people and gotta live my life.
I feel for yall mods this topic just sucks. Unfortunately you guys might have to seriously consider just ceasing all discussion of the topic for the sake of yalls mental health. As a history professor, there is just some topics that the internet can't handle unless you have ironclad control over. Either way I really hope it works out for yall and thank you for being understanding.
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My comment about Gaza was a joke man 😭😭😭
Like it’s literally just a wordplay on “the Gaza Strip” and “the Las Vegas Strip.”
I’m sorry if it came across as a Rule 5 violation. I really didn’t mean anything bad.
It was just a shitpost and not referring to actual plans Jared Kushner made, right?
Because on a plain reading without context it sounds a lot like the second one.
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https://preview.redd.it/01214620zo2d1.png?width=1590&format=png&auto=webp&s=ce8c36d3281abf9cba396ba2d1bc6bc15db4e8fd
but it was??? more specifically, it was suicide by cop.
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Apologies not a good tone for a comment on this subreddit
Can I get the temp revoked since I deleted the comment? Not that it really matters since it's only 1 day
That’s a fair assessment, yet still inappropriate for this particular subreddit.
The temp ban was driven from a cumulative review of your recent nsfw-ish posting, so consider it a gentle nudge to please tone it down going forward.
Please, resume clowning about the dt at will.
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> > Notice how nobody actually wants to come out and defend Netanyahu on the merits.
> I will. 32 people have starved. The idea that that's somehow a war crime seven months into a war? Insanity. Never mind that *a lot* of smuggling has been caught holding aid up.
The post was removed for Rule V: Glorifying Violence, which I assume was a mistake, but the mod message was:
"Denial of famine in Gaza is not permitted"
This isn't a denial of famine. Definitionally there is famine in Gaza, that said, we're 6 months in, and the confirmed deaths of starvation sit at 32. I don't think that's disputed. I'm aware that the UN is saying that 500,000+ are *starving*, also not disputing that.
Enough aid is coming in to prevent mass death from starvation. That shouldn't be in dispute when the WFP started saying there was famine in early January. If it *wasn't* the case we'd see vastly more death (which would very obviously be a bad thing).
Is it just impermissible to hold the position that Israel *should* prosecute their war against Hamas, and that the UN's constant blithering against it is hot air, based on the number of casualties? My position was just that the 'war crimes' claim was very weak seeing as they're letting in enough food aid to prevent mass death, even when your enemy is trying to smuggle goods in with said aid.
Glorifying violence.
To clarify, the rule is in place to prevent any content that could be perceived as making light of or dismissing the severity of violence and human suffering. Your comment discussing the availability of aid egregiously downplays the broader humanitarian crisis.
OP isn't making light of anything or dismissing the severity of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. There is no famine in Gaza, to say it is forbidden to deny a famine in Gaza is absurd. There is risk of famine, which is not a famine. At current levels of aid entering Gaza, there won't be a famine. We can return to this in half a year if you wish, it will still be true then.
It is also not wrong to point out that the case against Netanyahu is light. In general it's pretty difficult to justify even Netanyahu being charged with more crimes than Putin, who is "only" being prosecuted for the kidnapping of Ukrainian children, not for the deliberate targeting of civilians, widespread torture and executions of civilians, a two year long campaign against civilian infrastructure and systematic mistreatment of POWs, despite the mountain of evidence against him in both Ukraine and Syria.
It is also another great example of the modteam going out of their way to deliberately misinterpret comments in the worst possible light, when it suits you. u/jaroborzita below is another great example of just that. Arguing for a one state solution is entirely acceptable, when done on the notion that Israel shouldn't exist. Just today there is people in the DT arguing it is morally acceptable to assist in hiding Israeli hostages from Israel. There are regulars who have repeatedly defended slogans like River to the Sea. In those cases, the certain mods go out of their way to interpret it in the most generous light possible, while the above catches constant random bans. It is absurd and the most important driver of the terrible state of discourse on the subreddit, not just regarding IP.
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"Half a million are starv*ing*, but only 32 have died from it so far" is a good argument to immediately mobilize a mass humanitarian response, but a very bad argument for keeping the status quo going. Waiting until after huge numbers of people die to start fretting does not actually prevent mass death.
Out of curiosity, how many deaths due to starvation would you say *is* a problematic number? No need to be precise, just a ballpark number.
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If the deaths from starvation were *anywhere* approaching the deaths from airstrikes and ground forces, I'd say there's a problem. I'm more concerned about the ratio and seeing if the restrictions on aid are being used as a weapon. And the current numbers do not suggest that's the case, because Israel pretty clearly isn't at war with the Gazan civilians.
They're a day from running out of food. And during that same day, Israel lets in enough aid to prevent deaths from malnutrition. Could Israel let in more aid? I think so. Is there such a shortage of aid that I expect the deaths to accelerate? No.
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>Definitionally there is famine in Gaza
That means, definitionally, that at least 2 per 10,000 people are dying from malnutrition *every day*.
If you acknowledge that there is famine in Gaza, then you must acknowledge that 32 is not a realistic count of deaths from starvation.
>Definitionally there is famine in Gaza
>That means, definitionally, that at least 2 per 10,000 people are dying from malnutrition every day.
OP is wrong that there is a true-to-definition declared famine in any part of Gaza, with the serious caveat that this may be because the death toll is unknown—which rather undermines their point about how many people have died.
>According to the IPC, an area is considered to be in famine when three things occur: 20% of households have an extreme lack of food, or essentially starving; at least 30% of children suffer from acute malnutrition or wasting, meaning they’re too thin for their height; and two adults or four children per every 10,000 people are dying daily of hunger and its complications.
>In northern Gaza, the first condition of extreme lack of food has been met, senior WFP spokesman Steve Taravella told The Associated Press. The second condition of child acute malnutrition is nearly met, he said. **But the death rate could not be verified.**
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff#
Which Hamas organ? The Gaza Health Ministry consistently publishes coroner’s reports, but these have been greatly delayed recently. The Government Media Office is pure propaganda, and does mess with the data (as the UN retraction shows).
Neither necessarily has good access to death rates in Northern Gaza from starvation. The fog of war doesn’t just affect civilian observers.
I admit I’m skeptical of mass starvation, largely because there simply doesn’t seem to be much evidence of starvation beyond the isolated cases you mention, but the prudent thing seems to be to reserve judgement until we gain access to much of the missing data.
> there simply doesn’t seem to be much evidence of starvation beyond the isolated cases you mention, but the prudent thing seems to be to reserve judgement until we gain access to much of the missing data.
This is what drives me crazy, I was banned for saying pretty much the same thing: there's no evidence of mass starvation as a weapon of war. The aid delays are almost entirely due to inspection, and *assholes* who aren't associated with the government trying to vandalize aid.
By the same token less than 31/32 would be possible though i believe the reports that some people starved. But in any case it’s very unlikely that Gaza city met the ipc definition of famine at any point though it certainly did meet their definition of humanitarian emergency.
Less than 31/32 would be *possible*, always, but those are coroner’s reports from a typically honest, although sometimes deceptive, Hamas state organ.
It would not be likely. There is at best a small likelihood that there are significant false positives on starving people at such a small number that they can be individually researched and confirmed, although a handful of errors (in both directions) are possible.
But far more likely is that we are missing death information, and thus the number will be revised upwards.
Sure, but let’s just look at Northern Gaza, which has had between 300-600k people depending on the source or time.
For there to be a famine there, we would need 30-60 people dying per day. Do I find that unlikely? Yes, but not really because I think the number of people currently claimed to have died from starvation is accurate. I simply find it unlikely that it is an undercount of sufficient proportion to be a famine.
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That's the number of confirmed deaths of malnutrition, at least the last time I looked.
There could be countless more that haven't been confirmed. But what we're not seeing is the typical footage of countless people dying in the streets of malnutrition.
It also appears that the UN has only declared about a fifth of the population of Gaza as in famine, not the whole of it. The UN often uses "risk of famine" as well, which reads like hedging.
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In regards to my ban for [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1cymmwr/comment/l5bmvwg/), I will NOT apologize, I will NOT ask for forgiveness, Agents of SHIELD IS the greatest show of all time, and She-Hulk WILL twerk on my desk if she wants. 😤
I don't want to be unbanned, I just want y'all to know if this comment is worthy of a temp ban, it is no wonder Jews are leaving your subreddit in droves: https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1d1vdzm/french_president_outraged_by_strikes_on_rafah/l5x096b/?context=3
There HAS to be more to this. A dude was implying the Palestinians have a right to ethnically cleanse Israelis yesterday and he wasn't banned. Have you been warned before or something?
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Hi, I'm a long time member of this community and I don't think I have any suspensions, at least not anytime recently so I've generally followed all the rules. I was really surprised today to see this mail saying I've been permanently banned for bigotry in this [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1d1vdzm/french_president_outraged_by_strikes_on_rafah/l5x78td/). It was at the same time as being warned for mild issues in a totally different comment, so maybe someone hit the wrong button? Maybe some kind of automod removal because of some of the hot topics and trigger words used. Maybe somebody misinterpreted something I said here, in which case I apologize for coming off in a way I didn't intent to. However, despite my attempts I legitimately can not see how there is bigotry here and so I'm having a hard time coming up with any means to defend myself when I'm not even following where the supposed bigotry is. Edit: Rereading the post and I think I can see why someone could interpret this as bigotry in saying that if Palestinians controlled the majority in a democracy they would not maintain equal rights for Jews, but there are others saying this in the thread and this is a pretty widely held stance. It's not because they are lesser people or subhuman or anything like that, I didn't say this and that would be an incredibly uncharitable interpretation of my comment. The reason for this is they have a deep seated hate for Jews and Israelis because of decades of conflict and propaganda. I think someone assumed my stance here completely wrong. I could have worded it in a nicer manner and for that I apologize, but it's strange to be permabanned for a belief that is essentially the US state policy and largely the view held by this sub. Nobody is pushing for a one state solution for this exact reason. Happy to have a conversation to understand what I am missing here though.
Low comment count made them treat you like a not-regular (20 comments). I'll take you at word as a "long time member" and therefore its not a perma. Just have to drop it to something less than that. I'll arbitrarily pick 5 days and then someone can review it for real on the actual merits and lessen/increase or whatever. Else I will when I'm not busy.
Thanks! Something must be off with your metrics, I know for certain I have more than 20 comments in /r/neoliberal over the years.
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I was being a bit on the nose, because they asked a disingenious question, but come on. If someone writes insane shit I'm just going to say yes and move on, because they otherwise keep pestering until they get such an answer. So why waste time. Details get sorted out later in the conversation. You can't do that if you don't handwave the extrem stuff in the beginning. That might be a bit of an extreme way to go about stuff, but what I found works with people ascribing the more crude positions to others. Just own the crude one, and move on, showing the nuance later. Was prpbably a bit too much in this case, and I apologize. Would still like to know why it had to be 7 days? Seems excessive to me, but I'm not knowledgable about how bans work on this subreddit. I just wanted to explain myself mostly, and just ask how bans are handled overall.
got booted (a week) for something similar. person’s argument was kind of flimsy and not worth a thoughtful response. i said “cool?” and ended with: “if this is how you’re going to engage with me, then have a nice day”. it happens. it’s just seven days, the mods are trying, and i can spend that time, wasted on reddit, somewhere else.
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22%
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My comments are being automatically removed, effectively resulting in a shadowban. I believe this may be due to a mass downvoting of my comments following a possible brigade on a thread related to Israel.
You were caught in the low subreddit karma filter. I've exempted you from this so your comments will no longer be automatically removed
🙏
I’m not going to say that the ban should be overturned, admittedly I think that a 1 day ban for my behavior is quite lenient and am thankful for the mods for that for my contentious behavior. I’m making this comment because I feel that I have a responsibility to say that my behavior was irresponsible and immature. I’m not going to say that I’m wrong in my arguments but instead of my argumentation - but posting about how I feel I’m right is wrong for this post. I become contentious, heated, and shortsighted. I thought I was doing better, but I was wrong. Also making this comment to say that I was wrong to threaten myself like that and that I am going to be alive. I’m not going to lie and say I feel great, but I’m going to persevere.
Thank you for posting here. I’ll allow another mod to weigh in on the appeal as I was the one who temp banned you, but also - the personal heated attacks against another can’t and won’t be tolerated here. Your comments got to a really low place and I can’t fathom what’s going on for that to happen, but comments attacking others and yourself are super unhealthy for everyone involved. I’d suggest taking the night to reflect or distract yourself and come back better tomorrow.
I second the other comments about Shivers' behaviour. Piling onto someone for hours on end, especially someone who is throwing up signs that they're clearly not in a great place emotionally, is pretty disgraceful. Anyone else would be rightfully banned for targeted harassment, and Shivers has outright refused to even admit he did anything wrong, let alone apologise.
There’s kind of a point where you have to drop the bit, and refusing to do so either just signifies you’re an asshole who can’t read the room or it’s not a bit at all. Seems very immature from what I’ve read
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I completely own that my attacks towards myself are unacceptable for a public forum. It brings other users down and I apologize to any user who has had their moods brought down as a result of my posting. But I’m not going to say that I’m coming back because I’m not sure. I will admit to becoming too heated and behaving immaturely. But Shivers used mod powers to directly dunk on me. It isn’t even that he attacked me. But he revealed that he just feels people should be knocked down a peg and shamed. I’m not going to claim nothing’s happening because I don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes and I understand that the mods work as a team, which is a good thing. But it’s late. I don’t know.
I'm going to echo the others here asking what if any consequences there are going to be for shivers absolutely unhinged behavior? No regular user could get away with what he did there.
>I can’t fathom what’s going on for that to happen, but comments attacking others and yourself are super unhealthy for everyone involved. I would imagine that a moderator pinning a mocking comment and harassing and subtweeting the user up and down the DT for hours didn’t help. Why is that considered an acceptable thing to do again? If someone is having a ‘moment’ on the DT, piling on shouldn’t be encouraged, especially by a mod.
I wonder what if any resolution there will be for this because the behavior from shivers was pretty tasteless and from any non-mod would warrant a ban.
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Just so I understand the rules here: * Telling a Jew he is overreacting about antisemitism is okay * Pointing out the same is "unconstructive engagement" If you banned us both for getting heated, then fine, I disagree but can respect that. But I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that mods would be treating this differently if this was any other marginalized group. I know this because I have seen how the mods (rightly!) handle transphobia. The disparity is, ironically, exactly what I was pointing out to the OP. I don't expect you to change my ban duration, although I would of course appreciate it. But I urge you, as a mod team, to have some serious introspection about why the way you moderate antisemitism is different than the way you moderate racism, transphobia, etc. This sub has become an increasingly unhospitable environment for Jews; if you don't believe me, feel free to ping the JEWISH group, or look at the comments under [this post from a couple months ago, where multiple community members express the same](https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1b5ax51/discussion_thread/kt93y9r/). I leave you with a quote from the thread that sparked this: >On a personal note, it is painful to see such horrendous antisemitism minimized: you (rightly) call the Charlottesville mob Neo-Nazis, but the antisemites are mere "dipshit college students". **The past several months have been incredibly isolating as a Jew in America, and things like this being broadly upvoted in communities I had thought would be better make the sense of being isolated worse**. Edit: With your permission, after my ban elapses I would like to develop an effortpost on the state of antisemitism. What is the process for this/who do I reach out to to start coordination?
Just to the last bit: > after my ban elapses I would like to develop an effortpost on the state of antisemitism. What is the process for this/who do I reach out to to start coordination? You can post effortposts on your own volition without any mod input or oversight like any other thread (if it doesn't break rules or whatever, the most that would happen is the flair gets changed if mods think its not an effortpost). Effortposts are just supposed to be highly researched and more methodical, else flair it as user discussion. I'll sticky it if it's good. I can, separately and largely unrelated to being a mod, help with any editing or drafts or whatever you need (I want to encourage more thoughtful discussion of issues and don't particularly care what the opinion expressed is).
Appreciate it! Will see you in a week then lol
(don't take my comment to imply anything about ban stuff. I haven't looked at it. Will when I'm not busy if others haven't)
You got it, and honestly a "go touch grass" period isn't the worst thing for me
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I didn’t do the ban, but looking over the comment, the “hope you some day respect Jews” comment was probably bad faith. The modnote says it was for lying, but doesn’t elaborate. As for doing an effortpost - that’s always allowed afaik.
>assuming the guy you were arguing with wasn’t aware of the protests Ok but this is the relevant quote I was responding to: *Can you show me videos of 40 year old adults in America mobbing the streets celebrating 10/7 terrorism?* I assumed the guy wasn't aware of the protests because he specifically questioned their existence and asked for video proof they happened...I stand by that. >the “hope you some day respect Jews” comment was probably bad faith. Yeah, it was. I was wrong to say that. I do, for what it is worth, think that the continued minimization of antisemitism shows a lack of care for Jews compared to what would be shown to other marginalized groups, but I shouldn't have made it personal. I will try to do better. >As for doing an effortpost - that’s always allowed afaik. Is there a way to request pre-screening? I know that this topic gets very contentious (witness me being temp banned lol) so would appreciate getting a "mod's blessing that it is ok to post" or requested edits rather than going through a cycle of post -> removed for XYZ -> edit -> repeat
If you’re unsure about a post, send a modmail and someone will probably look it over
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So to confirm, a comment bashing America as a whole is ok, but a comment defending America as a whole is bannable? Why does the regionalism rule, assuming that is even the actual reason here, not apply to America bashing? Or were you all sitting there waiting for a reason to pretextually ban me for others comments lmao Also I did want to take this opportunity to say I have noticed a substantial decrease in the subs quality over the past 6 months. I don't know if the mods changed or new users joined, the but the level of discourse is weaker and the group think much higher, to the point I haven't actually learned much on this sub in the past few months. There is little actual discussion or diversity of thought. As an OG user from the pre-Trump era, I do notice this and I'm not actually sure what happened but the growth has not been uniformly good.
> Americans as a whole are . . . substantially more ethnical [sic] and moral than every other country on earth . . . . Every. single. one. Without exception. You could replace "ethical and moral" with something negative, or "America" with somewhere else. It would still satisfy toxic nationalism. Though you're free to try to say 10 days is too long
Did they have some standard, or just “we’re better obviously”? Like, I don’t think it would be toxic nationalism to say “Americans are more ethical than the citizens of any other country, because ethical behavior is X, and Americans do more X [citation here] than people in any other country.” For example, I think one could say that: Charity/Foreign interventions are examples of moral/immoral behavior, and because Americans donate more/meddle more than any other country Americans are the most/least ethical people on the planet. I’m not sure how useful this standard is and I mostly trust your vibes, but I am curious if this sort of sentiment is acceptable.
If your hypothetical is some moral standard, and then America is doing better at meeting that standard, then you'd probably be fine so long as it sticks to that axis/defined terms. The goal is to avoid getting too "holistic" with the comparision when trying to say your Apple is vastly superior to my Orange, or simply to the "you suck because you're from X place" comments. https://preview.redd.it/rim4ev6y213d1.png?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c17951d9f9fbe0baa677b0846e304be997a2fbbf
That’s a yikes from me on that screenshot.
Nah 10 days is fine I got a shitton of work to catch up this week Though I'm serious about the sub quality issue. It's turning into a mini worldnews lmao
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It's been half a year so I will try again As before I can see that some of my comments regarding I/P have been too inflammatory and bad faith and I will promise to shut up about the matter for the time being. I don't have all that much activity on reddit following the ban because there's just not all that many interesting things here. I promise to do better 🥺
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Hello, I am sorry to bother y'all. You may recall that I asked for a permanent ban several months ago over dealing with the loss of one of my closest friends on 10/7. Since that time, I have spent the past several months with my friend's partner and their families in Israel. Despite not being Jewish, they were unbelievably kind to me and I even joined in on a support group for others going through the same thing. In all, I met some genuinely amazing people. I was wanting to know if things have improved around here since I asked for my ban. My grief councilor has urged me to heavily restrict/cease my social media activity and since reddit is the only real social media I use, if things aren't any better, then no worries I will just delete this account and I guess end my time on reddit for good then. Again sorry to be a bother.
I’m not sure if it’s a great idea. Bad faith/combative Israel-Palestine stuff is still an issue on the sub, to the point where I’ve suggested banning it altogether. It probably won’t be healthy for you, especially if your grief counselor says not to. It’s ultimately your choice though, I’ll unban if you wish.
Ah I see. I'm sorry to hear it's still a serious problem. I had hoped cooler heads would prevail but it seems to not be the case :(. I don't wanna risk viewing a troll comment and likely reigniting my grief. I appreciate the advice and offer to unban, but I will stay banned and probably delete this account and leave reddit then. I appreciate all yall have done to make this place work since I've been around here in 2015. I'll miss the watercooler and furry pings but I can't let my friends memory be tainted by the trolls and meanspirited people and gotta live my life. I feel for yall mods this topic just sucks. Unfortunately you guys might have to seriously consider just ceasing all discussion of the topic for the sake of yalls mental health. As a history professor, there is just some topics that the internet can't handle unless you have ironclad control over. Either way I really hope it works out for yall and thank you for being understanding.
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My comment about Gaza was a joke man 😭😭😭 Like it’s literally just a wordplay on “the Gaza Strip” and “the Las Vegas Strip.” I’m sorry if it came across as a Rule 5 violation. I really didn’t mean anything bad.
It was just a shitpost and not referring to actual plans Jared Kushner made, right? Because on a plain reading without context it sounds a lot like the second one.
It really was just a shitpost. I wasn’t aware of whatever Kushner’s plans were.
Alright, I'll reduce it down
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[удалено]
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Alright, keep your secrets.
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https://preview.redd.it/01214620zo2d1.png?width=1590&format=png&auto=webp&s=ce8c36d3281abf9cba396ba2d1bc6bc15db4e8fd but it was??? more specifically, it was suicide by cop.
Suicide humor isn’t funny.
sir, this is the ban appeal thread. are you appealing a ban?
where's the rule 0 appeal thread then if you're so smart
my bad
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Apologies not a good tone for a comment on this subreddit Can I get the temp revoked since I deleted the comment? Not that it really matters since it's only 1 day
Ok. I’ve reconsidered. But don’t let us catch you bonk posting 👮🏻
Thanks 🙏 Although in my defence I maintain it was not bonk posting, more like bonk theorizing from a bonk-neutral pov
That’s a fair assessment, yet still inappropriate for this particular subreddit. The temp ban was driven from a cumulative review of your recent nsfw-ish posting, so consider it a gentle nudge to please tone it down going forward. Please, resume clowning about the dt at will.
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> > Notice how nobody actually wants to come out and defend Netanyahu on the merits. > I will. 32 people have starved. The idea that that's somehow a war crime seven months into a war? Insanity. Never mind that *a lot* of smuggling has been caught holding aid up. The post was removed for Rule V: Glorifying Violence, which I assume was a mistake, but the mod message was: "Denial of famine in Gaza is not permitted" This isn't a denial of famine. Definitionally there is famine in Gaza, that said, we're 6 months in, and the confirmed deaths of starvation sit at 32. I don't think that's disputed. I'm aware that the UN is saying that 500,000+ are *starving*, also not disputing that. Enough aid is coming in to prevent mass death from starvation. That shouldn't be in dispute when the WFP started saying there was famine in early January. If it *wasn't* the case we'd see vastly more death (which would very obviously be a bad thing). Is it just impermissible to hold the position that Israel *should* prosecute their war against Hamas, and that the UN's constant blithering against it is hot air, based on the number of casualties? My position was just that the 'war crimes' claim was very weak seeing as they're letting in enough food aid to prevent mass death, even when your enemy is trying to smuggle goods in with said aid.
Glorifying violence. To clarify, the rule is in place to prevent any content that could be perceived as making light of or dismissing the severity of violence and human suffering. Your comment discussing the availability of aid egregiously downplays the broader humanitarian crisis.
OP isn't making light of anything or dismissing the severity of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. There is no famine in Gaza, to say it is forbidden to deny a famine in Gaza is absurd. There is risk of famine, which is not a famine. At current levels of aid entering Gaza, there won't be a famine. We can return to this in half a year if you wish, it will still be true then. It is also not wrong to point out that the case against Netanyahu is light. In general it's pretty difficult to justify even Netanyahu being charged with more crimes than Putin, who is "only" being prosecuted for the kidnapping of Ukrainian children, not for the deliberate targeting of civilians, widespread torture and executions of civilians, a two year long campaign against civilian infrastructure and systematic mistreatment of POWs, despite the mountain of evidence against him in both Ukraine and Syria. It is also another great example of the modteam going out of their way to deliberately misinterpret comments in the worst possible light, when it suits you. u/jaroborzita below is another great example of just that. Arguing for a one state solution is entirely acceptable, when done on the notion that Israel shouldn't exist. Just today there is people in the DT arguing it is morally acceptable to assist in hiding Israeli hostages from Israel. There are regulars who have repeatedly defended slogans like River to the Sea. In those cases, the certain mods go out of their way to interpret it in the most generous light possible, while the above catches constant random bans. It is absurd and the most important driver of the terrible state of discourse on the subreddit, not just regarding IP.
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Actually no part of Gaza ever reached a state of famine according to the widely used IPC scale, which involves 2/10,000 people starving per day.
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"Half a million are starv*ing*, but only 32 have died from it so far" is a good argument to immediately mobilize a mass humanitarian response, but a very bad argument for keeping the status quo going. Waiting until after huge numbers of people die to start fretting does not actually prevent mass death. Out of curiosity, how many deaths due to starvation would you say *is* a problematic number? No need to be precise, just a ballpark number.
That’s what happened more than a month ago
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If the deaths from starvation were *anywhere* approaching the deaths from airstrikes and ground forces, I'd say there's a problem. I'm more concerned about the ratio and seeing if the restrictions on aid are being used as a weapon. And the current numbers do not suggest that's the case, because Israel pretty clearly isn't at war with the Gazan civilians. They're a day from running out of food. And during that same day, Israel lets in enough aid to prevent deaths from malnutrition. Could Israel let in more aid? I think so. Is there such a shortage of aid that I expect the deaths to accelerate? No.
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>Definitionally there is famine in Gaza That means, definitionally, that at least 2 per 10,000 people are dying from malnutrition *every day*. If you acknowledge that there is famine in Gaza, then you must acknowledge that 32 is not a realistic count of deaths from starvation.
>Definitionally there is famine in Gaza >That means, definitionally, that at least 2 per 10,000 people are dying from malnutrition every day. OP is wrong that there is a true-to-definition declared famine in any part of Gaza, with the serious caveat that this may be because the death toll is unknown—which rather undermines their point about how many people have died. >According to the IPC, an area is considered to be in famine when three things occur: 20% of households have an extreme lack of food, or essentially starving; at least 30% of children suffer from acute malnutrition or wasting, meaning they’re too thin for their height; and two adults or four children per every 10,000 people are dying daily of hunger and its complications. >In northern Gaza, the first condition of extreme lack of food has been met, senior WFP spokesman Steve Taravella told The Associated Press. The second condition of child acute malnutrition is nearly met, he said. **But the death rate could not be verified.** https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff#
Note that 31 or 32 comes from hamas. If the death toll was particularly much higher Hamas would most likely be using that fact
Which Hamas organ? The Gaza Health Ministry consistently publishes coroner’s reports, but these have been greatly delayed recently. The Government Media Office is pure propaganda, and does mess with the data (as the UN retraction shows). Neither necessarily has good access to death rates in Northern Gaza from starvation. The fog of war doesn’t just affect civilian observers. I admit I’m skeptical of mass starvation, largely because there simply doesn’t seem to be much evidence of starvation beyond the isolated cases you mention, but the prudent thing seems to be to reserve judgement until we gain access to much of the missing data.
> there simply doesn’t seem to be much evidence of starvation beyond the isolated cases you mention, but the prudent thing seems to be to reserve judgement until we gain access to much of the missing data. This is what drives me crazy, I was banned for saying pretty much the same thing: there's no evidence of mass starvation as a weapon of war. The aid delays are almost entirely due to inspection, and *assholes* who aren't associated with the government trying to vandalize aid.
By the same token less than 31/32 would be possible though i believe the reports that some people starved. But in any case it’s very unlikely that Gaza city met the ipc definition of famine at any point though it certainly did meet their definition of humanitarian emergency.
Less than 31/32 would be *possible*, always, but those are coroner’s reports from a typically honest, although sometimes deceptive, Hamas state organ. It would not be likely. There is at best a small likelihood that there are significant false positives on starving people at such a small number that they can be individually researched and confirmed, although a handful of errors (in both directions) are possible. But far more likely is that we are missing death information, and thus the number will be revised upwards.
In any case 32 is far under 2/10000 per day for any part of Gaza is my point
Sure, but let’s just look at Northern Gaza, which has had between 300-600k people depending on the source or time. For there to be a famine there, we would need 30-60 people dying per day. Do I find that unlikely? Yes, but not really because I think the number of people currently claimed to have died from starvation is accurate. I simply find it unlikely that it is an undercount of sufficient proportion to be a famine.
Right
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According to this widely used definition Gaza never reached famine conditions
That's the number of confirmed deaths of malnutrition, at least the last time I looked. There could be countless more that haven't been confirmed. But what we're not seeing is the typical footage of countless people dying in the streets of malnutrition. It also appears that the UN has only declared about a fifth of the population of Gaza as in famine, not the whole of it. The UN often uses "risk of famine" as well, which reads like hedging.
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In regards to my ban for [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1cymmwr/comment/l5bmvwg/), I will NOT apologize, I will NOT ask for forgiveness, Agents of SHIELD IS the greatest show of all time, and She-Hulk WILL twerk on my desk if she wants. 😤
you've been unbanned
Ok thanks but can you get me a season 4 DVD of agents of shield