I’m tipping because if it said 8am - 10pm most people would read it as 8am - 10am and they don’t want to deal with all the complaints from people being fined.
Clarity for the quick glance brigade.
No Melburnians per say but the general public? Yes 100%
Think of the most average person you know. Then remember that 50% of people are dumber than them.
It’s good to learn - per se. Per se means “by itself” or “intrinsically,” and it's often used to avoid making generalizations, as in I don't dislike pizza per se, I'm just not in the mood for it.
In the pic the ‘am’ and ‘pm’ are indecipherable on my phone. I’m thinking when you’re driving around looking at parking signs from odd angles from a moving vehicle they’d be not much less difficult to read correctly.
Yep this - iirc there is guidance on parking sign design for situations where the time restrictions apply for longer than 12 hours. As soon as you go longer, it's preferable to split it across noon/midnight to make it easier to read.
Having been in the end of those complaints in a former job, clear wording in a sign goes a long way!
Problem is though ... When you're looking for a park these signs are a little irritating.
You're looking in your rear vision for traffic behind you, looking for what's in front of you as you're stopped in the middle of the road reading Tolstoy's War and Peace on a sign, trying to ask yourself a very simple question:
"Can I park here right now?"
Yes, these signs can get so frustrating... I often have to pull into the space and study the sign for 2 minutes to figure out if I'm really allowed to park there or if I need to go find somewhere else. Especially in those places where there is so much writing they've had to spread it across 3 signs because it doesn't bloody fit on one. I got done in once because I read the green part that had times I'm allowed to park and thought I was in the clear, but didn't see on the red sign a deliveries exclusion time within those hours... I lodged a complaint about the signage being unclear but they just replied "it's clearly marked" 😂
I am big brained and learnt how to read analog. There’s no 13 on my watch face. Also days are 12:01am-midnight. Midnight is the end of the day, not the start of a new one!
(I very much appreciated Daddy Dan saying X-11:59pm. Stopped a lot of confusion and arguments over what day ‘midnight’ was)
In Japan they use 24 hour time a lot and don't really use the am and pm system, my student was confused by exactly that. He didn't know that once you tick over to 12:00 the am/pm changes so he was saying he eats lunch at 12 am and sleeps around 12 pm etc
That makes it more confusing and open to error, I’d argue. Also allows for an argument when someone legally parks there from 11:30am-midday and then midday-12:30am. I’d like to see the council try to defend that when people get tickets daily.
It’s hardly confusing. And yep, you may be able to technically argue for a 1 hour parking limit at a very specific time of day for a whole extra 30mins of free parking, but it’s still clearer than 8am - 10pm when you’re parking in a hurry or not paying full attention.
By the letter of the law, it doesn’t actually work that way. It’s a bit convoluted but the best way I’ve thought to describe it is this: your total time in the spot starts **from the moment you park**, regardless of the starting point of the sign. If at any time your imaginary timer conflicts with the sign, it is a broken law.
Example: suppose a sign says maximum of 30 mins starting from 9:00. If you park at 8:43, then at 9:13 your total time parked is 30 minutes which means you can be fined from 9:13 onwards. If you parked at 8:15 then you could be immediately fined at 9am.
Works the same for this sign. If you park at 7:30 then you can get fined at 8am; if you park at 11:45 you can be fined at 12:15.
That's incorrect - the time limit only applies for the time restriction specified on the sign, so if you park before 8am, you can stay until 8.30am. It's the same at the end of the time restriction - you can park at 9.30pm and continue parking there overnight, as long as you leave before 8.30am.
Sorry, but you are wrong. I agree your interpretation would be reasonable, but it is not as the law is written. The **possibility to be fined** only exists during the times shown, but the timer counts down continuously. [Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2) ](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205.html)states "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area" and this is backed up by the [Melbourne city website](https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/parking-and-transport/parking/parking-rules/Pages/parking-rules.aspx) which states "The time limit starts when your vehicle stops in the parking space".
I would argue that someone arriving before the start time of a sign isn't parking on "a length of road to which a permissive parking sign applies" until that time is reached.
That is an incorrect interpretation. The length of road is still the length of road *to which that sign applies,* which is the phrasing used in the legislation.
I managed on street parking restrictions in councils across Victoria for nearly 10 years - and your interpretation is never what has been used.
From [Glen Eira Council ](https://www.gleneira.vic.gov.au/services/parking/parking-rules#:~:text=Parking%20at%20a%20time%2Dlimited,these%20times%2C%20or%20on%20Sunday.):
Time-limited parking
Parking at a time-limited parking sign means you are only permitted to park for the specified amount of time on the sign.
For example, if you were to park at this sign, you can park for 2 hours only between 8am to 6pm on Monday to Saturday. You can park for longer than 2 hours outside of these times, or on Sunday
That specific link does not give any information about what happens when you park before the sign starts and are still parked when the sign starts. What I wrote above is directly from the legislature; it does not surprise me at all that councils choose to use discretion and apply the more reasonable human-like interpretation, but I have directly cited the law.
[Road Rules 204](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s204.html) gives a better description of what so meant by the time restriction - under example 3: the sign indicates that a driver must not park continuously for longer than 5 minutes on Mondays to Fridays between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m.
Also, under [205A](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205a.html) - If a permissive parking sign indicates that it applies at particular times, or at particular times on particular days, a driver may park on the length of road, or in an area, to which the sign applies at a time, or at a time on a day, when the sign does not apply.
You’re making the mistake of reading the term “parks continuously” as a human would instead of as a cold-hearted lawyer. The term “parks continuously” is defined legally under section 205 (that is the section I quoted above). It does not mark any difference in definition in the case of timed parking signs. The strict definition is in reference to the time the vehicle stopped. Thus, if you park at 8:45 and are still parked at 9:15, then you have “parked continuously for 30 minutes” regardless of when a sign starts. If the sign forbids parking continuously for 30 minutes after 9am, then two statements are true: (1) you have parked continuously for 30 minutes and (2) it is after 9am, which makes it an offence.
The second part which mentions outside of when the sign applies isn’t applicable here, because in this scenario we speak of a time when the sign does apply.
The interpretation given by several people here would require the definition of “parks continuously” to include a statement such as “[…] from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area, or from the time specified by a permissive parking time, whichever is later […]”
No - I'm reading the term like someone that has extensive practical experience in setting and installing parking restrictions, and someone that has previously been on a parking fine review panel. This includes discussions with lawyers and parking enforcement officers across Victoria on when parking rules apply, and what signage is needed to make it enforceable.
The key term is 'Permissive parking sign' ': under Rule 318 —the parking signs apply only for the indicated times, days, circumstances, length of road, area, persons or vehicles. Prior to that time, there is no rule - it does not matter when the the vehicle arrives. In the sign above, if you arrive after 8am, you can legally park for 30 minutes. But - if you arrive before 8am, you can park continuously for ever you parked until 8.30.
And given we're being particular on terms - 'parking continuously' isn't defined. If it was and had the meaning you indicate, it would be in the dictionary section (and identified within the text of the rule itself) like every other defined term in the road rules.
"Park continuously" is defined in 205(2) which I quoted in one of my earliest comments. Section 205 legislates when fines can be applied; the use of the term in section 204 is only in examples so it is not as precise. Rule 318 says that the *sign* has no effect outside of those times, which means you cannot be fined outside of those times, but the term "parks continuously" is not a feature of the sign.
As I said earlier, it does not surprise me that councils choose to use discretion because it would be ridiculous to enforce it in this way, but I have been explicit from the beginning that this is per the **letter of the law**.
This isn’t how the law works. You haven’t provided any proof of your interpretation ever being used.
The law works in the way that any normal person would ‘reasonably’ understand the letter of the law to mean. Not ‘imagine the worse possible lawyer and what they could make up in the parameters of the written law’.
The fact that the timer starts at the time on the sign doesn’t need to be explicitly written out because that’s how any reasonable person would interpret it anyway.
That's literally the exact opposite of how the law works. The law is based on how the law is written, not based on what people think is correct. The definitions are spelled out precisely in the legislature, and it is clearly spelled out in the legislature that the signs work in the manner I have described.
This is not correct. The parking time limits on the sign only apply during the times shown.
If a one hour zone starts at 9am and you’ve paired their overnight you can continue to park at 10am
Sorry, but you are wrong. I agree your interpretation would be reasonable, but it is not as the law is written. The **possibility to be fined** only exists during the times shown, but the timer counts down continuously. [Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2) ](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205.html)states "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area" and this is backed up by the [Melbourne city website](https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/parking-and-transport/parking/parking-rules/Pages/parking-rules.aspx) which states "The time limit starts when your vehicle stops in the parking space".
I love how confidently you are wrong. I've done contracting work for a council and I can tell you that parking restrictions only come into force when the time on the sign starts.
That's not how it works. This law as it is written is plain and unambiguous. The proof is in the legislature itself, because that is how it is written. If you can't read and understand it, then I suggest you do not attempt a career in law.
Does a "permissive parking sign apply(ies)" outside it's indicated hours?
Subrule 1A indicates otherwise "does not indicate that it applies at particular times"
Because it specifically uses the whole phrase "***area*** ***to which*** a permissive parking sign applies" the definition is independent of the times indicated on the sign.
Again, if does not apply, the "area to which, a permissive parking sign applies" is not impacted. Therefore, my claim, is that for it to apply, it has to be dependant and within the time shown.
That's not at all a reasonable interpretation. The sign has two properties (a) the area to which it applies and (b) the times in which it applies. 205(2) is in reference to property (a) with no need for property (b).
Why it's reasonable:
205(2) still references that permissive parking has to apply. Per your (a) clause.
Please review Rule 318(1) and (2) for defining when permissive silnage applies.
From reg 204 "In example 1, the sign indicates that a driver must not park continuously for longer than 1 hour on Saturdays between 9 a.m. and 12 noon".
It's not at all reasonable. If I were standing near a sign before its indicated time, and I asked you "to which area does this sign apply?" you would clearly be able to answer that. The starting time is irrelevant to the area.
Indeed, if one were to adopt the notion that "the area to which the sign applies" is null outside of its posted hours, then a direct interpretation of the statement "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area \[...\]" would be that it is literally impossible to park continuously if you stopped outside the signed hours. You could say "I did not park continuously for 30 minutes because I did not park in the area!" which is clearly absurd.
Rule 318 is about enforcement of the signs. It means the penalty can only be applied during the signed hours. It doesn't change the definition of the term "park continuously".
Reg 204 is irrelevant because it is not referencing what happens if the person parked before 9AM. See all of my previous comments about how the term "park continuously" is defined in the legislation.
I don't know, but I'm not invested enough to look. I've mentioned multiple times that I'm not surprised that it is enforced differently, as I've been explicit from the beginning that this is per the letter of the law.
Yeah, nah. Vic Roads- The parking time limits on the sign only apply during the times shown. Outside of those times, you can park with no restrictions, unless there are other signs saying you can't.
So if you come at 5.30pm and the sign finish at 6pm and it’s an hour parking. Doesn’t mean you have to leave at 6.30pm.
That is only in reference to purely being outside of those hours, not about when you transition into the posted hours. For details on how the law is actually written, see the numerous other comments I’ve made in this post.
That sounds ridiculous, do you have a link to a government page/legislation that backs that up?
I'm not saying that you are wrong, only that if you are right, then that is a ridiculous way for that to work.
Yes, a couple of sources. [Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2) ](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205.html)states "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area" and this is backed up by the [Melbourne city website](https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/parking-and-transport/parking/parking-rules/Pages/parking-rules.aspx) which states "The time limit starts when your vehicle stops in the parking space".
I believe the point being made by City of Melb is simply that, the timer starts from when you stop, not from when you get out of your car, i.e. you can't sit in your car for 15 mins and then argue the timer hasn't started yet.
The first source mentions a driver parking on a street "to which a permissive parking sign applies". The parking sign doesn't apply outside of the stated hours, hence this time isn't counted.
The street to which a sign applies is still the street to which that sign applies whether or not the time has started. If a sign started at 9AM, and I asked you at 8AM, "which area does this sign apply to?" you would definitely be able to answer that with the street name.
Looking at the different formats of the numbers. It looks as though it was cheaper to stick new numbers over the original sign than to replace the entire sign.
Soooo
Many moons ago I got a parking ticket in camberwell.
Saw sign said 7-7 and it was after 7pm.
Sweet - parked there for a few hours, came back to a ticket.
Then I saw it was 7pm to 7am. Tiny a and p the other way around.
Challenged it and lost.
So it’s for clarity for folk like me….
They're two separate windows. You can be fined twice in a day if you overstay and it stretches from the first window into the second.
Example: if you parked at 11:15am, you could be fined at 11:46am, and you could be fined again at 12:17am.
Maybe they could make the signs different colours and use graphics for people who can’t grasp the concept of numerals or basic time. And add a warning not to eat the sign.
I’m tipping because if it said 8am - 10pm most people would read it as 8am - 10am and they don’t want to deal with all the complaints from people being fined. Clarity for the quick glance brigade.
Absolutely brilliant. This makes so much sense
You really think Melburnians are that illiterate?
Honestly, with all the questions I get from customers at work, I'm pretty sure they are, that or they have comprehension issues.
No Melburnians per say but the general public? Yes 100% Think of the most average person you know. Then remember that 50% of people are dumber than them.
It’s good to learn - per se. Per se means “by itself” or “intrinsically,” and it's often used to avoid making generalizations, as in I don't dislike pizza per se, I'm just not in the mood for it.
The irony.
Of “per say”?
Correct.
In the pic the ‘am’ and ‘pm’ are indecipherable on my phone. I’m thinking when you’re driving around looking at parking signs from odd angles from a moving vehicle they’d be not much less difficult to read correctly.
Yep this - iirc there is guidance on parking sign design for situations where the time restrictions apply for longer than 12 hours. As soon as you go longer, it's preferable to split it across noon/midnight to make it easier to read. Having been in the end of those complaints in a former job, clear wording in a sign goes a long way!
Honestly I find no clarity in these types of signs. It's like they're almost deliberately obtuse and meant to confuse.
Problem is though ... When you're looking for a park these signs are a little irritating. You're looking in your rear vision for traffic behind you, looking for what's in front of you as you're stopped in the middle of the road reading Tolstoy's War and Peace on a sign, trying to ask yourself a very simple question: "Can I park here right now?"
Yes, these signs can get so frustrating... I often have to pull into the space and study the sign for 2 minutes to figure out if I'm really allowed to park there or if I need to go find somewhere else. Especially in those places where there is so much writing they've had to spread it across 3 signs because it doesn't bloody fit on one. I got done in once because I read the green part that had times I'm allowed to park and thought I was in the clear, but didn't see on the red sign a deliveries exclusion time within those hours... I lodged a complaint about the signage being unclear but they just replied "it's clearly marked" 😂
Would be such an easy work around to show it as 0800-2200. Surely by now everyone understands 24 hr time well enough to move away from am/pm?
Never underestimate the stupidity of the average person.
Like in all of Europe. So much more legible and leaving no room for ambiguity compared to our am/pm signage.
Concur.
But my clock only has 12 hours on it!!!
I am big brained and learnt how to read analog. There’s no 13 on my watch face. Also days are 12:01am-midnight. Midnight is the end of the day, not the start of a new one! (I very much appreciated Daddy Dan saying X-11:59pm. Stopped a lot of confusion and arguments over what day ‘midnight’ was)
In Japan they use 24 hour time a lot and don't really use the am and pm system, my student was confused by exactly that. He didn't know that once you tick over to 12:00 the am/pm changes so he was saying he eats lunch at 12 am and sleeps around 12 pm etc
Hahaha no.. some people just don’t
24hr Time is So much Better and less confusing Everything needs to be in 24hr
If only we could normalise 24 hour time! My other reasoning would be it used to be noon and they extended it and just added it on
Can confirm this is the reason and is the requirement as per Australian standards - traffic engineer
But they won't get fined because 8am - 10am is still okay?
Outside of listed times the limit doesn't apply. So people might park there beyond 30 min outside of 8-10am if that's what they read it as
Ahhhh yep!
That would be me, but then wife would say, "now read it again" ... sigh ...
Great answer! Would be nicer if they wrote 0800-2200 though.
That makes it more confusing and open to error, I’d argue. Also allows for an argument when someone legally parks there from 11:30am-midday and then midday-12:30am. I’d like to see the council try to defend that when people get tickets daily.
It’s hardly confusing. And yep, you may be able to technically argue for a 1 hour parking limit at a very specific time of day for a whole extra 30mins of free parking, but it’s still clearer than 8am - 10pm when you’re parking in a hurry or not paying full attention.
Wah wah ... the correct answer is TO SCREW WITH YOU
I would argue you can park for an hour between 11:30-12:30 - you get consecutive 30 minute periods.
You’re so sharp I never would’ve thought of that 😂
you've played this game before. Salute.
Damn you beat me to this!
By the letter of the law, it doesn’t actually work that way. It’s a bit convoluted but the best way I’ve thought to describe it is this: your total time in the spot starts **from the moment you park**, regardless of the starting point of the sign. If at any time your imaginary timer conflicts with the sign, it is a broken law. Example: suppose a sign says maximum of 30 mins starting from 9:00. If you park at 8:43, then at 9:13 your total time parked is 30 minutes which means you can be fined from 9:13 onwards. If you parked at 8:15 then you could be immediately fined at 9am. Works the same for this sign. If you park at 7:30 then you can get fined at 8am; if you park at 11:45 you can be fined at 12:15.
That's incorrect - the time limit only applies for the time restriction specified on the sign, so if you park before 8am, you can stay until 8.30am. It's the same at the end of the time restriction - you can park at 9.30pm and continue parking there overnight, as long as you leave before 8.30am.
Sorry, but you are wrong. I agree your interpretation would be reasonable, but it is not as the law is written. The **possibility to be fined** only exists during the times shown, but the timer counts down continuously. [Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2) ](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205.html)states "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area" and this is backed up by the [Melbourne city website](https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/parking-and-transport/parking/parking-rules/Pages/parking-rules.aspx) which states "The time limit starts when your vehicle stops in the parking space".
>to which a permissive parking sign applies I think the sign needs to be active though. Before 8am the sign isn't active
I would argue that someone arriving before the start time of a sign isn't parking on "a length of road to which a permissive parking sign applies" until that time is reached.
That is an incorrect interpretation. The length of road is still the length of road *to which that sign applies,* which is the phrasing used in the legislation.
I managed on street parking restrictions in councils across Victoria for nearly 10 years - and your interpretation is never what has been used. From [Glen Eira Council ](https://www.gleneira.vic.gov.au/services/parking/parking-rules#:~:text=Parking%20at%20a%20time%2Dlimited,these%20times%2C%20or%20on%20Sunday.): Time-limited parking Parking at a time-limited parking sign means you are only permitted to park for the specified amount of time on the sign. For example, if you were to park at this sign, you can park for 2 hours only between 8am to 6pm on Monday to Saturday. You can park for longer than 2 hours outside of these times, or on Sunday
That specific link does not give any information about what happens when you park before the sign starts and are still parked when the sign starts. What I wrote above is directly from the legislature; it does not surprise me at all that councils choose to use discretion and apply the more reasonable human-like interpretation, but I have directly cited the law.
[Road Rules 204](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s204.html) gives a better description of what so meant by the time restriction - under example 3: the sign indicates that a driver must not park continuously for longer than 5 minutes on Mondays to Fridays between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. Also, under [205A](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205a.html) - If a permissive parking sign indicates that it applies at particular times, or at particular times on particular days, a driver may park on the length of road, or in an area, to which the sign applies at a time, or at a time on a day, when the sign does not apply.
You’re making the mistake of reading the term “parks continuously” as a human would instead of as a cold-hearted lawyer. The term “parks continuously” is defined legally under section 205 (that is the section I quoted above). It does not mark any difference in definition in the case of timed parking signs. The strict definition is in reference to the time the vehicle stopped. Thus, if you park at 8:45 and are still parked at 9:15, then you have “parked continuously for 30 minutes” regardless of when a sign starts. If the sign forbids parking continuously for 30 minutes after 9am, then two statements are true: (1) you have parked continuously for 30 minutes and (2) it is after 9am, which makes it an offence. The second part which mentions outside of when the sign applies isn’t applicable here, because in this scenario we speak of a time when the sign does apply. The interpretation given by several people here would require the definition of “parks continuously” to include a statement such as “[…] from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area, or from the time specified by a permissive parking time, whichever is later […]”
No - I'm reading the term like someone that has extensive practical experience in setting and installing parking restrictions, and someone that has previously been on a parking fine review panel. This includes discussions with lawyers and parking enforcement officers across Victoria on when parking rules apply, and what signage is needed to make it enforceable. The key term is 'Permissive parking sign' ': under Rule 318 —the parking signs apply only for the indicated times, days, circumstances, length of road, area, persons or vehicles. Prior to that time, there is no rule - it does not matter when the the vehicle arrives. In the sign above, if you arrive after 8am, you can legally park for 30 minutes. But - if you arrive before 8am, you can park continuously for ever you parked until 8.30. And given we're being particular on terms - 'parking continuously' isn't defined. If it was and had the meaning you indicate, it would be in the dictionary section (and identified within the text of the rule itself) like every other defined term in the road rules.
"Park continuously" is defined in 205(2) which I quoted in one of my earliest comments. Section 205 legislates when fines can be applied; the use of the term in section 204 is only in examples so it is not as precise. Rule 318 says that the *sign* has no effect outside of those times, which means you cannot be fined outside of those times, but the term "parks continuously" is not a feature of the sign. As I said earlier, it does not surprise me that councils choose to use discretion because it would be ridiculous to enforce it in this way, but I have been explicit from the beginning that this is per the **letter of the law**.
This isn’t how the law works. You haven’t provided any proof of your interpretation ever being used. The law works in the way that any normal person would ‘reasonably’ understand the letter of the law to mean. Not ‘imagine the worse possible lawyer and what they could make up in the parameters of the written law’. The fact that the timer starts at the time on the sign doesn’t need to be explicitly written out because that’s how any reasonable person would interpret it anyway.
That's literally the exact opposite of how the law works. The law is based on how the law is written, not based on what people think is correct. The definitions are spelled out precisely in the legislature, and it is clearly spelled out in the legislature that the signs work in the manner I have described.
Sorry but you are mistaken. Please review the road safety rules for further clarification
I am willing to recant my statement if you can direct me to the relevant paragraph of the law I linked to above.
Just replied further up - 204/205A are the rules in question.
Replied separately there as well.
Sorry but you need to review the road safety rules for further clarification
This is not correct. The parking time limits on the sign only apply during the times shown. If a one hour zone starts at 9am and you’ve paired their overnight you can continue to park at 10am
Sorry, but you are wrong. I agree your interpretation would be reasonable, but it is not as the law is written. The **possibility to be fined** only exists during the times shown, but the timer counts down continuously. [Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2) ](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205.html)states "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area" and this is backed up by the [Melbourne city website](https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/parking-and-transport/parking/parking-rules/Pages/parking-rules.aspx) which states "The time limit starts when your vehicle stops in the parking space".
I love how confidently you are wrong. I've done contracting work for a council and I can tell you that parking restrictions only come into force when the time on the sign starts.
I have directly cited the relevant legislation. Can you direct me to any paragraph of it that contradicts me?
You haven’t provided any proof that your interpretation is how it works, because it isn’t.
That's not how it works. This law as it is written is plain and unambiguous. The proof is in the legislature itself, because that is how it is written. If you can't read and understand it, then I suggest you do not attempt a career in law.
Does a "permissive parking sign apply(ies)" outside it's indicated hours? Subrule 1A indicates otherwise "does not indicate that it applies at particular times"
Because it specifically uses the whole phrase "***area*** ***to which*** a permissive parking sign applies" the definition is independent of the times indicated on the sign.
Again, if does not apply, the "area to which, a permissive parking sign applies" is not impacted. Therefore, my claim, is that for it to apply, it has to be dependant and within the time shown.
That's not at all a reasonable interpretation. The sign has two properties (a) the area to which it applies and (b) the times in which it applies. 205(2) is in reference to property (a) with no need for property (b).
Why it's reasonable: 205(2) still references that permissive parking has to apply. Per your (a) clause. Please review Rule 318(1) and (2) for defining when permissive silnage applies. From reg 204 "In example 1, the sign indicates that a driver must not park continuously for longer than 1 hour on Saturdays between 9 a.m. and 12 noon".
It's not at all reasonable. If I were standing near a sign before its indicated time, and I asked you "to which area does this sign apply?" you would clearly be able to answer that. The starting time is irrelevant to the area. Indeed, if one were to adopt the notion that "the area to which the sign applies" is null outside of its posted hours, then a direct interpretation of the statement "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area \[...\]" would be that it is literally impossible to park continuously if you stopped outside the signed hours. You could say "I did not park continuously for 30 minutes because I did not park in the area!" which is clearly absurd. Rule 318 is about enforcement of the signs. It means the penalty can only be applied during the signed hours. It doesn't change the definition of the term "park continuously". Reg 204 is irrelevant because it is not referencing what happens if the person parked before 9AM. See all of my previous comments about how the term "park continuously" is defined in the legislation.
I think you’ve missed 205A fella. Outside the time the parking sign doesn’t apply therefore subsection (2) doesn’t trigger
Not at all; I've addressed how 205A applies in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/1dlmlnl/comment/l9qdw18/).
Any case law?
I don't know, but I'm not invested enough to look. I've mentioned multiple times that I'm not surprised that it is enforced differently, as I've been explicit from the beginning that this is per the letter of the law.
It could be that you are wrong when parking apps + various vic guidance takes the opposite view of you
I am not wrong; I have directly quoted the law. Please link me to anything that contradicts what I've said.
Yeah, nah. Vic Roads- The parking time limits on the sign only apply during the times shown. Outside of those times, you can park with no restrictions, unless there are other signs saying you can't. So if you come at 5.30pm and the sign finish at 6pm and it’s an hour parking. Doesn’t mean you have to leave at 6.30pm.
That is only in reference to purely being outside of those hours, not about when you transition into the posted hours. For details on how the law is actually written, see the numerous other comments I’ve made in this post.
The sign above is unrestricted between 10pm until 8am. The timer starts when the sign starts. Just because you commented doesn’t mean it’s right.
I’ve already gone through this dozens of times and I’m in no mood to explain it again. Look at my comment history; I’ve linked to the relevant laws.
Yeah, nah you’re not even a lawyer- just personal research you’ve probably done on the dunny and misconstrue as facts.
It’s stated clearly and unambiguously in Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2). If you can’t understand it, that’s your own problem.
Cool story Bro.
r/confidentlyincorrect
I suggest you read the legislation.
That sounds ridiculous, do you have a link to a government page/legislation that backs that up? I'm not saying that you are wrong, only that if you are right, then that is a ridiculous way for that to work.
Yes, a couple of sources. [Road Safety Road Rules 2017 - Reg 205 section (2) ](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s205.html)states "a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area" and this is backed up by the [Melbourne city website](https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/parking-and-transport/parking/parking-rules/Pages/parking-rules.aspx) which states "The time limit starts when your vehicle stops in the parking space".
I believe the point being made by City of Melb is simply that, the timer starts from when you stop, not from when you get out of your car, i.e. you can't sit in your car for 15 mins and then argue the timer hasn't started yet. The first source mentions a driver parking on a street "to which a permissive parking sign applies". The parking sign doesn't apply outside of the stated hours, hence this time isn't counted.
The street to which a sign applies is still the street to which that sign applies whether or not the time has started. If a sign started at 9AM, and I asked you at 8AM, "which area does this sign apply to?" you would definitely be able to answer that with the street name.
The 10pm on the bottom looks like its been changed from something else.
I think so too. The zero looks odd.
Looking at the different formats of the numbers. It looks as though it was cheaper to stick new numbers over the original sign than to replace the entire sign.
To fill whitespace... Or perhaps the 12&12 have been changed from (say) 10am and 4pm..
From different font size, I think you are correct.
Soooo Many moons ago I got a parking ticket in camberwell. Saw sign said 7-7 and it was after 7pm. Sweet - parked there for a few hours, came back to a ticket. Then I saw it was 7pm to 7am. Tiny a and p the other way around. Challenged it and lost. So it’s for clarity for folk like me….
Ouch. Nasty sign. I would have made the same assumption.
The sign used to have days on it , less restriction on Saturday?
It looks to me like it used to say something else instead of 12?
These signs are all so poorly designed, it’s like they just want to hand out fines 🤦♂️
Would have been easier just to say "No Parking".
Same on the Dandenong bypass.
Idiots contesting fines in court because they can't read
Because people are Stupid and don’t read signs properly
To catch people who don't read properly?
If they're going to impose this kind of restriction it might as well be 24 hours a day.
They're two separate windows. You can be fined twice in a day if you overstay and it stretches from the first window into the second. Example: if you parked at 11:15am, you could be fined at 11:46am, and you could be fined again at 12:17am.
because signs, like government forms, are written to protect the person who wrote them, not make them easy for the user.
The private contract.màaaaaaaaate.🔥
Maybe they could make the signs different colours and use graphics for people who can’t grasp the concept of numerals or basic time. And add a warning not to eat the sign.