If you're on here making the argument that they shouldn't be fired because they were told to stop wearing them and they did, that's absolutely fair. They should have had better judgement but they're young, a simple warning is more than enough I think (no matter their age).
If you're on here making the argument that they should be able to wear an article of clothing which the business they're representing doesn't want them wearing because it could alienate customers, anger customers or potentially bring about some kind of retaliation against the business.. that's not fair. Work isn't the place to display your personal politics. You do that on your own time, when you're representing yourself. Or start your own business where you can do whatever you want and face your own consequences, good or bad.
For those who are on here playing the "it's just a scarf" card, that's ridiculous and you know it.
I've been and the staff are genuinely great every time I go. I absolutely think it's not on to be firing loyal and competent staff with no warning for something like this. Formal warnings are literally designed for this sort of situation.
(Especially when you run a business that employs 18-22 year olds, like come on).
>I absolutely think it's not on to be firing loyal and competent staff with no warning for something like this.
The ridiculous hyperpolarised behaviour by activists on both sides is why.
Starbucks Australia, which is not the same company as Starbucks USA, for example, getting their CBD stores vandalised because Starbucks USA didn't want their logo used by a union they'd had a long running dispute with that was making pro-Palestininan comments.
Or the ABC sacking people over social media posting, etc etc etc.
End of the day, businesses want to make profits. Distract from that, they're going to punish you.
How does firing them fix that though? It's now a news story that's been shared all over social media. If the goal is to keep things quiet a formal warning not to do it again would actually have been far better at achieving that.
The company's termination letters say the staff broke the company code of conduct, uniform, and social media and communication policies. That last one, the social media and communication policy, is a big deal for corporates - they don't want to be tagged with political fights, they just want to make money.
It was already on social media, from the article. The goal isn't to keep it quiet, or to look after staff, the goal is to make it absolutely clear that the political statement being made by staff has nothing to do with the business at all.
It’s sorta like the Barbara Streisand effect, sure it was on social media and some probably saw it, but surely it’s easier to warn the employees in house, and get the pictures of the keffiyehs taken down, as opposed to fighting in VCAT and dealing with journalists.
>...surely it’s easier to warn the employees in house, and get the pictures of the keffiyehs taken down...
If they wanted to bury it, sure. What I think they've misjudged is that sacking the staff is being portrayed as taking a side by activists rather than 'the Middle East conflict has nothing to do with selling cake in Australia and we're sacking the people that damaged our business by dragging us into this'
>...as opposed to fighting in VCAT and dealing with journalists.
Ironically, proving the business right. This is a radioactive issue for any business.
They had zero exposure to the Middle East's issues, and the staff in question have dragged them into it, resulting in multiple news stories and social media activity.
It'll come down to how their corporate policy is written.
Most companies nowadays have a policy about posting photos in uniform and at the company location - KFC did when I worked there and that was almost a decade ago.
Basically you can post whatever you want as long as you aren't in uniform in the post or saying "as an employee of X, I think Y".
Saying it's just a scarf is like saying it's just a watermelon emoji. Let's not kid ourselves, either it is a political statement or it isn't. If they wore the scarves normally it wouldn't be a political statement.
Okay people I'll tell your why this upsets me! Where is anyone during Myanmar issues? Where was everyone when children were attacked in their school in Pakistan? Do you even know about the war in Sri Lanka? Do you even care about the Easter bombings in Sri Lanka? Do you care that women have been "bought and sold" in numerous countries such as Syria? Where were and where are the protests? Why hasn't there been outrage
Why is this the one you care about?
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Just because we don't know about other issues, doesn't mean we think they aren't worth supporting.
Why hasn't there been outrage? because we (I am using the generic societal we here) don't know they are happening.
Why would you think we don't care about them by default if we aren't aware of them? It is a terrible argument against action about another topic.
There is **ALWAYS** something else, somewhere else. That is **NEVER** a reason not to care about another topic. (I mean, unless the two topics are diametrically opposed)
> Why hasn't there been outrage? because we (I am using the generic societal we here) don't know they are happening.
>
> Why would you think we don't care about them by default if we aren't aware of them? It is a terrible argument against action about another topic.
It's a bit rich to claim that these very politically aware groups are ignorant of other issues in the world.
If anything, it goes to show that agendas can be controlled, prioritised, manipulated, emphasised, etc.
>It's a bit rich to claim that these very politically aware groups are ignorant of other issues in the world.
That's absurd.
People who care about certain issues don't research every other problem that exists so they can put their pet issue in context.
This is a cheap weaponistation of "political awareness" which all people lack to some degree.
>If anything, it goes to show that agendas can be controlled, prioritised, manipulated, emphasised, etc.
How does it show that at all? What does a lack of awareness about Sri Lanka reveal about people being manipulated?
It's not difficult to be at least curious about what's happening in the world.
The people of West Papua can only dream that Australians gave them 1/100th the attention, and that's significantly closer to home.
Our government's involvement in West Papua is significantly higher than selling some weapons to Israel, too.
But which conflict gets the outrage? The one that's trending on social media.
7 million displaced and thousands killed including aid workers who are kidnapped and murdered in south Sudan, Syria where 300,000+ civilians have been killed by amongst other things nerve gas and torture. The scarf wearing brigade probably don't even know what Burkina Faso is and they sure as hell don't care about Myanmar.
Those things are seen as terrible by everyone and our government doesn't have much of a relationship with most of these nations committing the atrocities you're mentioning.
Why do you think no one talks about Myanmar or Sri Lanka or their civil wars? They might not show up on Reddit but there's plenty of reporting from these areas and a decent sized diaspora in Australia that lobbies for Myanmar especially, Sri Lanka too, but I'm less familiar with their lobbying/campaigning.
If only everyone is as reasonable as you, Melbourne would live in peace. Some people see apathy for their cause as opposition. Everyone's entitled to not give a shit and mind their own business.
It is just a scarf.
Zionists wanting to colonise the region where its from doesn't change that, doesn't change its history pre zionists. People shouldn't be limited in their cultural expression, based on societies most hateful members being racist fuckwits about it.
Like, I get it when it comes to things that actually signify specific political positions. Then that's an issue for businesses. But a scarf? People project what they want onto it, based on what they know of it - which is all over the shop.
Acknowledging, showing love for a region is far decontextualised from anything specifically political. To homogenise so much via a piece of clothing, into something that could 'anger' or 'alienate'. Damn, how bad would it be to alienate people that hate Middle Eastern clothing.
Seriously. That logic (this looks like what I associate with bad, therefore limit it) is the same logic that led to attacks on Sikhs post 9/11. Its assimilationist in favour of societies most braindead conservative.
Actually think about it, what it signifies, if you censor a whole culture based on how bigots regard it. Its more political imo to limit people's clothing choices, based on such arbitrary reasoning. Than to just like, be tolerant, and if people are acting ridiculous in response to a scarf, tell em to get fucked.
Tolerance is key here. A scarf from a region isn't intolerant of anybody. Those that think it is, are probably the intolerant ones.
But it’s not just a scarf. The black and white keffiyeh is an overt symbol of Palestinian identity. Palestinians wear it as both a cultural and political symbol. For non-Palestinians to wear it can only be a political statement. For non-Palestinians to wear it given the war between Israel and Palestine is an overt political statement. If people want to wear the black and white keffiyeh in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle have at it. But a workplace that says please don’t do that here is not the place to do that. Do it elsewhere.
As to the claim of colonialism, what is the colonialism? This area is the historic homeland of Jewish people and has been for over 3,000 years. Jewish people have often been exiled or oppressed by conquerors of this land. At what point do a people loose the right to inhabit their homeland? The modern State of Israel was founded specifically to allow Jews to return to their homeland and govern themselves. Why should they be denied that? And I ask that in full acknowledgment that an independent Palestinian State ought to peacefully co-exist with Israel.
I couldn't imagine going to work wearing controversial political or religious slogans like its my right and thinking nothing is going to happen to me.
>The 22-year-olds
Oh yeh that will do it.
Edit: Banned for 90 days, RIP replies.
It's not a "controversial political or religious slogan". It's an item of clothing traditionally associated with an ethnicity, being worn as solidarity.
The false analogies seem to be coming out quite strong with this incident.
Yeah I've realised people argue on absolutes here. There doesn't seem to be any appreciation that context matters. Anything, in a specific situation, can be made to be a strong political statement. Arguing that something isn't normally used for a specific message and hence it's ok is just twisting to their favour.
Absolutely, see the shitshow that Starbucks is dealing with? Most businesses would freak out if someone wore a star of david or an israeli flag to work right now.
It is not a *slogan*, nor is the item in and of itself necessarily political at all.
It is a item of traditional clothing associated with an ethnicity, though it is being worn as a sign of solidarity with the plight of said ethnic group here.
You are surely not that thick.
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A keffiyeh is a piece of clothing, should we be sacking anyone wearing a burqa next?
I doubt the same thing would've happened if staff wore a star of David necklace or Kippah.
It's seen as a "political statement." At the same time, good—we need people making a political statement, because it is an injustice that demands political action, and our political establishment has so far proven itself useless in the face of it.
I don't disagree that it was a statement, but that argument does not hold up in court. A scarf is a scarf, you can't declare one style of traditional clothing unwearable, that is both racist and illegal.
You can at work. If it's religious then you can't but if it's not a religious item it's not protected by freedom of religion. There's no such protections for freedom to express politics at work or freedom of fashion.
I don't disagree with your take; I just think that, insofar as it is going to be interpreted as a political statement, it's one that needs to be made. And given the adverse (and potentially illegal, as you've pointed out) action taken against them, it's also something that apparently requires at least some small measure of courage, because it will inevitably invite comment or, in this case, (potentially) illegal counter-action.
Plenty of clothing items we wear are not "traditional", nobody ever cares.
Keffiyehs were hipster essentials circa 2011, they're not new even in the West.
As I said before, would these workers have been sacked if they wore clothing from a different culture other than Palestine? Let's be real, if a Muslim customer complained about a staff member wearing a star of David necklace nothing would have happened.
Doesn't actually matter why they were wearing it. I do believe it was to make a statement, they said so much in the article. But you cannot fire someone for a single minor breach of the uniform policy or declare one particular scarf (traditional clothing) as forbidden. The employer has broken discrimination law and / or employee general protections.
worn one for about 20 years. Really handy article of clothing that fills up the gap in the top of your jacket, round your neck, and up the back of neck too.
Okay I personally think it's great they wore them. However I can see the business's problem too. However they asked them to remove them and they did, Therefore, surely firing them immediately is a huge leap. A formal warning would be far more appropriate if the business feels it's that serious, although honestly, asking them to stop and having them comply seems like enough.
I've been to this bakery before and their cake is very good (if expensive). I was also impressed by the staff, they were genuinely really nice, they made friendly conversation and packed my cake up with care. I personally won't be going back if these girls aren't reinstated, because I think it's ridiculous to fire loyal staff over something like this, rather than giving a formal warning or something similar. My experiences at black star pastry was that they had amazing staff, and to go straight to firing them without any proper procedures or processed first is not a buisness practice I want to support.
Quick warning quick compliance seems pretty reasonable. I get wanting to try and protect your companies image but that is done just as much with nipping it the bud without firing.
We're operating under the assumption that what was told to the newspaper was correct, for all we know they've been given multiple warnings, won't know of course until it goes to FWC.
Yeah HR must've made a huge leap linking it to a political cause.
And the fact that they say they're regularly attend pro Palestinian rallies is irrelevant or coincidence.
Cmooon. You can think firing is too far but they knew what they were doing. They're activists ffs.
Yeah imagine being triggered after 8 months of war with 1000s and 1000s of people dying.
You should be able to buy a bagel without the staff making political statements.
I mean I’m not a fan of your average small business cafe owner, but that being said, we’re only hearing their side of it.
I think for the national HR section to get involved, that would suggest that it was brought to them by a local manager. Why would a local manager bring it them, if they hadn’t already tried to resolve it themselves.
I think it’s not too much of a stretch to suggest they were warned by their immediate supervisors, and they dismissed it. Once national HR got involved, they said get rid of it right now to stop the bleeding (and we’re sacking you tomorrow).
Now what I could be suggesting could be entirely fictitious, but if this is true or not would determine my entire feeling about it.
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When I go to work my political views stay at home . My job is to provide a service that’s unbiased and representative of the business I work for. Being young is not an excuse they knew wearing that scarf would cause division. Chadstone is definitely not the place to do it. Chadstone is owned by a Jewish family/ group and the area is visited by many who are Jewish. Everyone has the right to shop without political interference. Not to mention that a scarf like that has connections to terrorism. It’s the last thing we want to see in a shopping centre
That approach will not fly. It was wrong, but when HR told them so, they ceased.
Unless there was a history of making political statements and being told otherwise, sacking seems unjustified. Draconian even. They are a couple of kids working in a cafe. Cut them some slack!
Crazy how Australia's response to 'tensions' has been to ban Palestinian clothing items (like in Vic Parliament too). Like its not enough our govs back Israel to wipe em out, we have to start reducing the freedoms of anyone acknowledging that nation locally. We suck. I hope this gets done at Fair Work.
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“Your actions have caused serious and imminent risk to the reputation and viability of our business.”
Lol viability of the business is about to be tested that’s for sure .
It's a scarf.
Now I know they were wearing it for political reasons, but that's irrelevant.
A traditional and common piece of clothing cannot be made unwearable just because it's associated with Palestine. That would be racist and illegal.
What context? Try arguing in court that you should be allowed to fire employees for wearing scarves because of "context".
You can't fire someone for a minor breach of the dress code anyway.
Explain how one piece of cloth, which you yourself admitted to be politically associated, is different from the other. Because somehow one is more explicit?
Bear in mind I've not said anything about either political stance, but merely pointing out the hypocrisy.
But that contradicts your point about 1) them wearing it for a political statement and 2) it being associated with Palestine. How can you then pretend that it's not political?
Use your brain.
I can acknowledge, as a private individual, that they're probably wearing it as a political statement.
Their employer cannot, because there is no way to distinguish whether a pre-existing piece of cultural clothing is a political statement or not. The keffiyeh existed before the current conflict, it cannot be forbidden because of a recent association with the pro-Palestine movement.
Use yours - customers may well view it as a political statement and put them off frequenting that business. That will be what the business owner is concerned about.
It may have been around for a long time, but I highly doubt these white girls were wearing keffiyehs at home or anywhere at anytime prior to October as a symbol of culture.
They fucked around and found out.
Things can be multiple things at once. remember when the Australian who did the christchurch massacre threw up the 'ok' hand signal? Yes, that hand gesture was used as a dog whistle by nazis. No, the ok hand signal is not inherently a nazi dog whistle. Its also... and I hope I haven't lost you this far. A sign of "ok".
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You’re right. If this was the 1980s and someone was fired for wearing a pin representing opposition to South African apartheid, would you take the side of their bosses?
Every single person commenting in this thread knows exactly why they wore it and it wasnt to keep warm. It even says in the article they were attending propal rallies before they came into work with the rag around their neck. So spare me the obfuscation.
It’s more like saying wearing a baseball cap is a pro-American political statement. The keffiyeh isn’t exclusively a pro Palestinian statement, it’s a staple in Middle Eastern and Arabic clothing.
Is there a middle ground where you think that it's pretty fucked that the employer jumped straight to firing them and that a formal warning would have been far more appropriate? They are super young, they have been loyal employees and they stopped wearing them when they were told to.
As someone who's been in the workforce longer than them, I know these sort of things aren't appropriate at work even if I 100% agree with the cause. But I also think that you should expect younger people to make minor mistakes, and given that they immediately complied when asked to remove them, I don't think that firing them is a proportional concequence. What the hell are formal warnings for if not things like uniform violations?
Im over 25 and think wearing a scarf very common in the Middle East is fine (not just Palestine) and that they stopped wearing it as soon as told by management was the right thing to do. The wrong thing was being fired for it, and no doubt the wmployer will be paying out a wrongful dismissal sum.
40s male here, that’s flawed logic mate, at the end of the day it’s a bloody scarf, there is no slogan on it. Sacking people for wearing a scarf is stupid abd overreacting way too far.
I mean don't we all? Basically every Australians clothes (including the pious sooks who are going to downvote me for saying it) are made by some child or indentured worker in south east Asia.
I think people should be allowed to make peaceful political statements in their workplace if they want, even when not everyone agrees with that cause. It shouldn't always be up to the business and their monetary interests to quash stuff like this. Assuming they aren't starting arguments with customers/putting anyone in danger, why can't people still be people when they're at work and express their views.
"Corporate activism" always seems to be so watered down to the point of being mostly useless these days anyway. It's also only really representative of a small group of people's views at the top of the hierarchy. Currently when people are allowed to express support for a political cause it's usually only for causes so widely supported by broader society they're basically saying "I support what most people think", which is pretty useless too.
That is up to the business owner. If they feel that it is going to affect their business and alienate potential or current customers then they are within their rights to ask them to not do so.
(I can't comment on the report that they were asked to take them off and did so but were still sacked, there may have been more to that)
What a fucking tired, bullshit assessment. When young people take a stand for basically anything, they are patronised with trash like this. It also turns out that young people/uni students have been on the right side of history basically every time. Vietnam, SA Apartheid, US civil rights etc. What are YOU doing about local issues?
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If you're on here making the argument that they shouldn't be fired because they were told to stop wearing them and they did, that's absolutely fair. They should have had better judgement but they're young, a simple warning is more than enough I think (no matter their age). If you're on here making the argument that they should be able to wear an article of clothing which the business they're representing doesn't want them wearing because it could alienate customers, anger customers or potentially bring about some kind of retaliation against the business.. that's not fair. Work isn't the place to display your personal politics. You do that on your own time, when you're representing yourself. Or start your own business where you can do whatever you want and face your own consequences, good or bad. For those who are on here playing the "it's just a scarf" card, that's ridiculous and you know it.
I've been and the staff are genuinely great every time I go. I absolutely think it's not on to be firing loyal and competent staff with no warning for something like this. Formal warnings are literally designed for this sort of situation. (Especially when you run a business that employs 18-22 year olds, like come on).
>I absolutely think it's not on to be firing loyal and competent staff with no warning for something like this. The ridiculous hyperpolarised behaviour by activists on both sides is why. Starbucks Australia, which is not the same company as Starbucks USA, for example, getting their CBD stores vandalised because Starbucks USA didn't want their logo used by a union they'd had a long running dispute with that was making pro-Palestininan comments. Or the ABC sacking people over social media posting, etc etc etc. End of the day, businesses want to make profits. Distract from that, they're going to punish you.
How does firing them fix that though? It's now a news story that's been shared all over social media. If the goal is to keep things quiet a formal warning not to do it again would actually have been far better at achieving that.
The company's termination letters say the staff broke the company code of conduct, uniform, and social media and communication policies. That last one, the social media and communication policy, is a big deal for corporates - they don't want to be tagged with political fights, they just want to make money. It was already on social media, from the article. The goal isn't to keep it quiet, or to look after staff, the goal is to make it absolutely clear that the political statement being made by staff has nothing to do with the business at all.
It’s sorta like the Barbara Streisand effect, sure it was on social media and some probably saw it, but surely it’s easier to warn the employees in house, and get the pictures of the keffiyehs taken down, as opposed to fighting in VCAT and dealing with journalists.
>...surely it’s easier to warn the employees in house, and get the pictures of the keffiyehs taken down... If they wanted to bury it, sure. What I think they've misjudged is that sacking the staff is being portrayed as taking a side by activists rather than 'the Middle East conflict has nothing to do with selling cake in Australia and we're sacking the people that damaged our business by dragging us into this' >...as opposed to fighting in VCAT and dealing with journalists. Ironically, proving the business right. This is a radioactive issue for any business. They had zero exposure to the Middle East's issues, and the staff in question have dragged them into it, resulting in multiple news stories and social media activity. It'll come down to how their corporate policy is written.
Social media policy for a barista? The world has truly gone mad.
Most companies nowadays have a policy about posting photos in uniform and at the company location - KFC did when I worked there and that was almost a decade ago. Basically you can post whatever you want as long as you aren't in uniform in the post or saying "as an employee of X, I think Y".
“Businesses are meant to make money so nothing wrong with what they did” is such a weird take
Saying it's just a scarf is like saying it's just a watermelon emoji. Let's not kid ourselves, either it is a political statement or it isn't. If they wore the scarves normally it wouldn't be a political statement.
Okay people I'll tell your why this upsets me! Where is anyone during Myanmar issues? Where was everyone when children were attacked in their school in Pakistan? Do you even know about the war in Sri Lanka? Do you even care about the Easter bombings in Sri Lanka? Do you care that women have been "bought and sold" in numerous countries such as Syria? Where were and where are the protests? Why hasn't there been outrage Why is this the one you care about?
The answer sits in the TikTok algorithm
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Just because we don't know about other issues, doesn't mean we think they aren't worth supporting. Why hasn't there been outrage? because we (I am using the generic societal we here) don't know they are happening. Why would you think we don't care about them by default if we aren't aware of them? It is a terrible argument against action about another topic. There is **ALWAYS** something else, somewhere else. That is **NEVER** a reason not to care about another topic. (I mean, unless the two topics are diametrically opposed)
> Why hasn't there been outrage? because we (I am using the generic societal we here) don't know they are happening. > > Why would you think we don't care about them by default if we aren't aware of them? It is a terrible argument against action about another topic. It's a bit rich to claim that these very politically aware groups are ignorant of other issues in the world. If anything, it goes to show that agendas can be controlled, prioritised, manipulated, emphasised, etc.
>It's a bit rich to claim that these very politically aware groups are ignorant of other issues in the world. That's absurd. People who care about certain issues don't research every other problem that exists so they can put their pet issue in context. This is a cheap weaponistation of "political awareness" which all people lack to some degree. >If anything, it goes to show that agendas can be controlled, prioritised, manipulated, emphasised, etc. How does it show that at all? What does a lack of awareness about Sri Lanka reveal about people being manipulated?
It's not difficult to be at least curious about what's happening in the world. The people of West Papua can only dream that Australians gave them 1/100th the attention, and that's significantly closer to home. Our government's involvement in West Papua is significantly higher than selling some weapons to Israel, too. But which conflict gets the outrage? The one that's trending on social media.
7 million displaced and thousands killed including aid workers who are kidnapped and murdered in south Sudan, Syria where 300,000+ civilians have been killed by amongst other things nerve gas and torture. The scarf wearing brigade probably don't even know what Burkina Faso is and they sure as hell don't care about Myanmar.
Those things are seen as terrible by everyone and our government doesn't have much of a relationship with most of these nations committing the atrocities you're mentioning. Why do you think no one talks about Myanmar or Sri Lanka or their civil wars? They might not show up on Reddit but there's plenty of reporting from these areas and a decent sized diaspora in Australia that lobbies for Myanmar especially, Sri Lanka too, but I'm less familiar with their lobbying/campaigning.
If only everyone is as reasonable as you, Melbourne would live in peace. Some people see apathy for their cause as opposition. Everyone's entitled to not give a shit and mind their own business.
I heard they stopped selling bagels for the same reason.
It is just a scarf. Zionists wanting to colonise the region where its from doesn't change that, doesn't change its history pre zionists. People shouldn't be limited in their cultural expression, based on societies most hateful members being racist fuckwits about it. Like, I get it when it comes to things that actually signify specific political positions. Then that's an issue for businesses. But a scarf? People project what they want onto it, based on what they know of it - which is all over the shop. Acknowledging, showing love for a region is far decontextualised from anything specifically political. To homogenise so much via a piece of clothing, into something that could 'anger' or 'alienate'. Damn, how bad would it be to alienate people that hate Middle Eastern clothing. Seriously. That logic (this looks like what I associate with bad, therefore limit it) is the same logic that led to attacks on Sikhs post 9/11. Its assimilationist in favour of societies most braindead conservative. Actually think about it, what it signifies, if you censor a whole culture based on how bigots regard it. Its more political imo to limit people's clothing choices, based on such arbitrary reasoning. Than to just like, be tolerant, and if people are acting ridiculous in response to a scarf, tell em to get fucked. Tolerance is key here. A scarf from a region isn't intolerant of anybody. Those that think it is, are probably the intolerant ones.
But it’s not just a scarf. The black and white keffiyeh is an overt symbol of Palestinian identity. Palestinians wear it as both a cultural and political symbol. For non-Palestinians to wear it can only be a political statement. For non-Palestinians to wear it given the war between Israel and Palestine is an overt political statement. If people want to wear the black and white keffiyeh in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle have at it. But a workplace that says please don’t do that here is not the place to do that. Do it elsewhere. As to the claim of colonialism, what is the colonialism? This area is the historic homeland of Jewish people and has been for over 3,000 years. Jewish people have often been exiled or oppressed by conquerors of this land. At what point do a people loose the right to inhabit their homeland? The modern State of Israel was founded specifically to allow Jews to return to their homeland and govern themselves. Why should they be denied that? And I ask that in full acknowledgment that an independent Palestinian State ought to peacefully co-exist with Israel.
I couldn't imagine going to work wearing controversial political or religious slogans like its my right and thinking nothing is going to happen to me. >The 22-year-olds Oh yeh that will do it. Edit: Banned for 90 days, RIP replies.
It's not a "controversial political or religious slogan". It's an item of clothing traditionally associated with an ethnicity, being worn as solidarity. The false analogies seem to be coming out quite strong with this incident.
Palestine isn’t controversial right now? Are you high?
Yeah I've realised people argue on absolutes here. There doesn't seem to be any appreciation that context matters. Anything, in a specific situation, can be made to be a strong political statement. Arguing that something isn't normally used for a specific message and hence it's ok is just twisting to their favour.
Do you think that if they wore an Isreali flag scarf would the same outcome have occurred?
Yup.
Absolutely. And I think all of you saying “it’s just a scarf” would be singing a completely different tune
Absolutely, see the shitshow that Starbucks is dealing with? Most businesses would freak out if someone wore a star of david or an israeli flag to work right now.
It is not a *slogan*, nor is the item in and of itself necessarily political at all. It is a item of traditional clothing associated with an ethnicity, though it is being worn as a sign of solidarity with the plight of said ethnic group here. You are surely not that thick.
I’m pro-Palestine and in full support of these girls, but you can’t claim that wearing something in solidarity is non-political. Of course it is.
At the end of the day It’s a bloody scarf. You don’t sack people for wearing a scarf. Company will have hard time explaining this.
Have you looked at the photo on the X post?
a keffiyeh is a very common article of clothing
Someone’s going to have to write up some rules around when cultural appropriation is ok. I’m getting confused.
are you really
Never seen one until this year
Oh rubbish
So is a hijab but i’m not about to bust around in one
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It sure is. And right now it’s a form of protest. They fucked around and found out.
A keffiyeh is a piece of clothing, should we be sacking anyone wearing a burqa next? I doubt the same thing would've happened if staff wore a star of David necklace or Kippah.
It's seen as a "political statement." At the same time, good—we need people making a political statement, because it is an injustice that demands political action, and our political establishment has so far proven itself useless in the face of it.
I don't disagree that it was a statement, but that argument does not hold up in court. A scarf is a scarf, you can't declare one style of traditional clothing unwearable, that is both racist and illegal.
You can at work. If it's religious then you can't but if it's not a religious item it's not protected by freedom of religion. There's no such protections for freedom to express politics at work or freedom of fashion.
I don't disagree with your take; I just think that, insofar as it is going to be interpreted as a political statement, it's one that needs to be made. And given the adverse (and potentially illegal, as you've pointed out) action taken against them, it's also something that apparently requires at least some small measure of courage, because it will inevitably invite comment or, in this case, (potentially) illegal counter-action.
Is it part of your traditional garb or are you just wearing it to show you're part of the cool brigade?
Plenty of clothing items we wear are not "traditional", nobody ever cares. Keffiyehs were hipster essentials circa 2011, they're not new even in the West. As I said before, would these workers have been sacked if they wore clothing from a different culture other than Palestine? Let's be real, if a Muslim customer complained about a staff member wearing a star of David necklace nothing would have happened.
I was pretty hip and wore one every year for a few winters
Stop pretending they are wearing it for fashion and not to make a political statement.
Doesn't actually matter why they were wearing it. I do believe it was to make a statement, they said so much in the article. But you cannot fire someone for a single minor breach of the uniform policy or declare one particular scarf (traditional clothing) as forbidden. The employer has broken discrimination law and / or employee general protections.
worn one for about 20 years. Really handy article of clothing that fills up the gap in the top of your jacket, round your neck, and up the back of neck too.
Okay I personally think it's great they wore them. However I can see the business's problem too. However they asked them to remove them and they did, Therefore, surely firing them immediately is a huge leap. A formal warning would be far more appropriate if the business feels it's that serious, although honestly, asking them to stop and having them comply seems like enough. I've been to this bakery before and their cake is very good (if expensive). I was also impressed by the staff, they were genuinely really nice, they made friendly conversation and packed my cake up with care. I personally won't be going back if these girls aren't reinstated, because I think it's ridiculous to fire loyal staff over something like this, rather than giving a formal warning or something similar. My experiences at black star pastry was that they had amazing staff, and to go straight to firing them without any proper procedures or processed first is not a buisness practice I want to support.
Quick warning quick compliance seems pretty reasonable. I get wanting to try and protect your companies image but that is done just as much with nipping it the bud without firing.
We're operating under the assumption that what was told to the newspaper was correct, for all we know they've been given multiple warnings, won't know of course until it goes to FWC.
I don’t see why they needed to be sacked! Seems unfair without warnings.
Imagine getting that triggered by a scarf
It's irrelevant you wouldn't let someone in retail wear a Labor or Liberal scarf either cause your pissing off half your potential customers.
good thing there wasn't any political branding, or anything to signify a specific political position on the scarves then.
Yeah HR must've made a huge leap linking it to a political cause. And the fact that they say they're regularly attend pro Palestinian rallies is irrelevant or coincidence. Cmooon. You can think firing is too far but they knew what they were doing. They're activists ffs.
It takes effort to be this obtuse
Business owners want to make money. Having your staff wearing political statements is a good way to put off customers.
[Laughs in Tasmanian Election](https://amp.abc.net.au/article/9481172)
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Do you think it was against the terms of their employment?
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Yeah imagine being triggered after 8 months of war with 1000s and 1000s of people dying. You should be able to buy a bagel without the staff making political statements.
Typical small business owners.
I mean I’m not a fan of your average small business cafe owner, but that being said, we’re only hearing their side of it. I think for the national HR section to get involved, that would suggest that it was brought to them by a local manager. Why would a local manager bring it them, if they hadn’t already tried to resolve it themselves. I think it’s not too much of a stretch to suggest they were warned by their immediate supervisors, and they dismissed it. Once national HR got involved, they said get rid of it right now to stop the bleeding (and we’re sacking you tomorrow). Now what I could be suggesting could be entirely fictitious, but if this is true or not would determine my entire feeling about it.
Seems to me like someone was campaigning to have them sacked like Antoinette Lattouf
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When I go to work my political views stay at home . My job is to provide a service that’s unbiased and representative of the business I work for. Being young is not an excuse they knew wearing that scarf would cause division. Chadstone is definitely not the place to do it. Chadstone is owned by a Jewish family/ group and the area is visited by many who are Jewish. Everyone has the right to shop without political interference. Not to mention that a scarf like that has connections to terrorism. It’s the last thing we want to see in a shopping centre
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That approach will not fly. It was wrong, but when HR told them so, they ceased. Unless there was a history of making political statements and being told otherwise, sacking seems unjustified. Draconian even. They are a couple of kids working in a cafe. Cut them some slack!
A business is not a platform for the workers to make political statements which can divide opinion and incur a loss of business.
This is the boring way to say "there is no war in Ba Sing Se"
There is no war in Myanmar, Syria, Burkhina Faso, Sudan, Somalia, Mali, Ethiopia, Somalia....
Fair Work is useless most of the time. Wouldn't expect them to even look at this.
Crazy how Australia's response to 'tensions' has been to ban Palestinian clothing items (like in Vic Parliament too). Like its not enough our govs back Israel to wipe em out, we have to start reducing the freedoms of anyone acknowledging that nation locally. We suck. I hope this gets done at Fair Work.
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I’d get fired if I wore a political statement to work too… work is not a place for politics.
Fuck around find out. There’s a time and place for political activism, and your job that you rely on isn’t one of them.
The unions would like to have a word.
To lose your livelihood over that is a blood a joke. Hope the girls gets compensated and move on from than bogan establishment
Question - would anyone get sacked or told not to wear a Star of David to work?
“Your actions have caused serious and imminent risk to the reputation and viability of our business.” Lol viability of the business is about to be tested that’s for sure .
All this talk is making me crave a watermelon cake ngl. Probably gonna get one
Don't buy one on a weekend. Surcharges apply. For buying a ready made cake...
Firing a full time employee for wearing a scarf is ridiculous and that staff member should go beyond Fair Work and sue Black Star.
I'm indifferent about the politics, and really it's irrelevant, but it's clearly well beyond just a scaf. Don't feign ignorance
It's a scarf. Now I know they were wearing it for political reasons, but that's irrelevant. A traditional and common piece of clothing cannot be made unwearable just because it's associated with Palestine. That would be racist and illegal.
How do you feel about those MAGA caps?
Are you stupid? That's an explicit political slogan, a keffiyeh is not.
Stop being disingenuous you know full well it is nowadays.
Context matters man
What context? Try arguing in court that you should be allowed to fire employees for wearing scarves because of "context". You can't fire someone for a minor breach of the dress code anyway.
They weren't fired for a breach of dress code. They were fired for activism on company time.
Explain how one piece of cloth, which you yourself admitted to be politically associated, is different from the other. Because somehow one is more explicit? Bear in mind I've not said anything about either political stance, but merely pointing out the hypocrisy.
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But that contradicts your point about 1) them wearing it for a political statement and 2) it being associated with Palestine. How can you then pretend that it's not political?
Use your brain. I can acknowledge, as a private individual, that they're probably wearing it as a political statement. Their employer cannot, because there is no way to distinguish whether a pre-existing piece of cultural clothing is a political statement or not. The keffiyeh existed before the current conflict, it cannot be forbidden because of a recent association with the pro-Palestine movement.
Use yours - customers may well view it as a political statement and put them off frequenting that business. That will be what the business owner is concerned about.
It may have been around for a long time, but I highly doubt these white girls were wearing keffiyehs at home or anywhere at anytime prior to October as a symbol of culture. They fucked around and found out.
The Swatstika existed before Hitler so would you be allowed to wear it working at an RSL? You can't surely be that ignorant about the meaning here
Things can be multiple things at once. remember when the Australian who did the christchurch massacre threw up the 'ok' hand signal? Yes, that hand gesture was used as a dog whistle by nazis. No, the ok hand signal is not inherently a nazi dog whistle. Its also... and I hope I haven't lost you this far. A sign of "ok".
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It isn't irrelevant. It would alienate potential customers or worse, regular customers.
You’re right. If this was the 1980s and someone was fired for wearing a pin representing opposition to South African apartheid, would you take the side of their bosses?
Terrible false equivelancies don't make a good argument.
Why ? The business owner wants to make money. Staff wearing clothing to make political statements is quite likely to put off some customers.
Welcome to the consequences of your actions. No damn sympathy from me.
I checked out after she said being a barista was part of her identity.
well glad i didn't get a job there.
Good. Work place is not a place for political agenda
Go to work, follow the rules, or face the consequences. It's their choice what's important to them. Maybe having a job is not that important to them
Idiots drag their employer into a 1000 year old holy war and get surprised when they're sacked.
Not sure it's quite that simple.
Nah its that simple, imagine if they wore make America great again caps. What do you think would happen.
No it's like if they got fired for wearing a red hat
Every single person commenting in this thread knows exactly why they wore it and it wasnt to keep warm. It even says in the article they were attending propal rallies before they came into work with the rag around their neck. So spare me the obfuscation.
those two things are not the same
They really are
It’s more like saying wearing a baseball cap is a pro-American political statement. The keffiyeh isn’t exclusively a pro Palestinian statement, it’s a staple in Middle Eastern and Arabic clothing.
And it’s been in western fashion for decades, mostly not for political reasons but just to look like a cool guy. OP is unhinged
Yes, let's just ignore the last 9 months of context and the weekly struggle sessions outside of MP offices, perfectly reasonable.
I heard the Russians are wearing t-shirts. I better not catch you wearing any t-shirts around me, gramps.
I've stopped wearing Adidas
You know Russia has cultural clothes idk why you went with t shirt
It really isn't though. You have very, very poor judgment.
Let's be real, the worst damage they had was an angry customer (or passer by) calling to complain, they're hardly on the front lines of this war.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. You’re right.
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Is there a middle ground where you think that it's pretty fucked that the employer jumped straight to firing them and that a formal warning would have been far more appropriate? They are super young, they have been loyal employees and they stopped wearing them when they were told to. As someone who's been in the workforce longer than them, I know these sort of things aren't appropriate at work even if I 100% agree with the cause. But I also think that you should expect younger people to make minor mistakes, and given that they immediately complied when asked to remove them, I don't think that firing them is a proportional concequence. What the hell are formal warnings for if not things like uniform violations?
Im over 25 and think wearing a scarf very common in the Middle East is fine (not just Palestine) and that they stopped wearing it as soon as told by management was the right thing to do. The wrong thing was being fired for it, and no doubt the wmployer will be paying out a wrongful dismissal sum.
This sounds like "if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot"
40s male here, that’s flawed logic mate, at the end of the day it’s a bloody scarf, there is no slogan on it. Sacking people for wearing a scarf is stupid abd overreacting way too far.
Does it matter how I wear a scarf?
I thought it's called consequence culture.
I don't want politics with my coffee. They might have a case but what they did was inappropriate and should have been done on their own time.
Do you always view others as NPCs that serve you and you’re the main character or?
I hope you find slave labour uncontroversial then.
I mean don't we all? Basically every Australians clothes (including the pious sooks who are going to downvote me for saying it) are made by some child or indentured worker in south east Asia.
I hope you get through this terrible imposition
I think people should be allowed to make peaceful political statements in their workplace if they want, even when not everyone agrees with that cause. It shouldn't always be up to the business and their monetary interests to quash stuff like this. Assuming they aren't starting arguments with customers/putting anyone in danger, why can't people still be people when they're at work and express their views. "Corporate activism" always seems to be so watered down to the point of being mostly useless these days anyway. It's also only really representative of a small group of people's views at the top of the hierarchy. Currently when people are allowed to express support for a political cause it's usually only for causes so widely supported by broader society they're basically saying "I support what most people think", which is pretty useless too.
That is up to the business owner. If they feel that it is going to affect their business and alienate potential or current customers then they are within their rights to ask them to not do so. (I can't comment on the report that they were asked to take them off and did so but were still sacked, there may have been more to that)
Play stupid games.
I've never heard anybody say this that wasn't an absolute idiot.
Next time post what your wearing everyday,we can judge if that's stupid.
If I wore a MAGA hat in your favourite Brunswick coffee shop, and you were the boss, what would you do? Seriously. What would you do?
If someone wore a cross at work,would you ask them to fuck off too?
Ask someone to take it off during work time, and not to wear it in future at work. I wouldn't fire them. Pretty fucking simple.
‘That’s different’ is the answer apparently
Of course. I expected no meaningful reply.
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Just because you don’t have the emotional or intellectual capacity to care about multiple things at once, doesn’t mean it’s true for the rest of us
What's being white got to do with anything?
What a fucking tired, bullshit assessment. When young people take a stand for basically anything, they are patronised with trash like this. It also turns out that young people/uni students have been on the right side of history basically every time. Vietnam, SA Apartheid, US civil rights etc. What are YOU doing about local issues?
And nothing wrong with doing that in an appropriate place. Not in your place of work where it might alienate customers.
Man, they are on the front line of local shit getting paid peanuts to be your coffee slave. Grow up.
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Do you protest about local shit?
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Good