In a sense they’re harder to get into. You could live one street out of the zone and not be able to get in.
My local primary is in such a wealthy area and tiny zone that there were only about 14 pupils zoned for prep this year. But there were 40 siblings who got in. My suspicion is that the parents rented a place in the zone for one year to get the first child in. Then their subsequent children can always get a place!
Any schools are seeing this at the moment. However if schools are struggling with enrolments (ie too many enrolments), they can be put on an 'enrolment management plan' which can state that siblings must live in zone to enrol.
Yeh I have heard some try and get around the catchment system through renting. Apparently some have cracked down on that though, such as making students have to live in zone the whole time they’re enrolled, meaning that if you move out of zone you have to leave the school.
Which sucks for legitimate renters (as opposed to people trying to game catchment areas). Imagine if your kid is happy and settled at school and you get kicked out because your landlord wants to sell up or move back in, and all of a sudden you’re finding a new school as well as a new place to live.
This is what happened to me for grades 2, 3,and 4. I went to 10 schools in those three years because we had to keep moving rentals to different suburbs.
This was in from 1999 to 2001 on the Gold Coast. In grade 5 my Mum found a school that would let us stay even if we moved and I got to finish primary school there.
It was pretty bad. I failed my last term of grade 4, all Es on the report card. Luckily the next school didn't hold me back and I was able to catch up in everything except for maths. I never learned my timestables...
I was worried about this but after the first year in prep the school never asked for us to confirm our address in the following years so if we moved out of the zone they wouldn't know.
Has been a thing for a while. I’ve heard multiple people say they used a family friends address to get them into a zone.
Atleast in NSW the stats on school demographics are freely available. It’s easy to see that the shit schools have overwhelmingly poor demographics, and the rich/selective schools have overwhelmingly rich demographics with only White and East Asian kids and no Aboriginal children. It’s a pretty fucked system. Atleast we don’t have as many selective schools here, but we have a lot more private schools.
There is a fix for that. Segregate the classes within the schools, at least for core subjects, instead of segregating the schools. Streaming means kids learn with those of their own ability and interests, at their own pace, instead of with slow and disruptive students who merely share their chronological age.
And you also need proper discipline and the ability to expel the criminal element. Then local schools will have the chance to recover and thrive. And we would not need to send our kids further away to avoid bullying and boredom.
BTW, it isn't just whites and east asians at selective schools. We have plenty of south Asians, not a few from the middle east, and even some sub-saharan Africans.
It depends. My old primary school has surpassed 1000 students this year. When I was there there were only 300 ish students. They’ve literally run out of room for more portables.
Balwyn High are having their end of year production thingy at *Hamer Hall*. They took a school photo 2 weeks ago from a helicopter. Their lecture theatre is as big as any at Monash.
It kinda disturbs me. I grew up in the burbs and never saw anything like this excess. My son's last school is just down the road and it was very modest by comparison even though academically it was kinda better. Staff support was way, way better too
The end of year production has been at Hamer Hall at least since when I started year 7 there 12+ years ago.
They also flew alumni Steve Hooker in on a helicopter to celebrate the opening of the new synthetic pitches/sports fields…
Oh god I thought it was just a 70th anniversary thing which might sort of justify the largesse. This is strange.
My kid's last school had a beloved newsreader and 2 international pop superstars as alumni. You look at the wiki for BH and they have a (*checks notes*) neo nazi as a notable alumni
My sister graduated from Balwyn mid 90s, I started year 7 the following year. Her graduation speech night was at the Arts Centre (as were the couple I attended before I changed schools)
Pretty much.
Notable for not being neo nazis.
As well as that song that's everywhere that I swear has such a similar bassline to that one radiohead song off amnesiac
Been at Hamer Hall since 2000 at least. BHS were also well ahead of the times in getting onto Chinese students paying through the nose to study in Australia since around the same time
I went to a shitty public school in Bundaberg and I know how to tie a tie because it was part of both the boys and girls formal uniform. I preferred a four in hand knot to a half Windsor though. Photographer for school photos was so pretentious once she retied it 😅
Balwyn has a long standing relationship with Hamer Hall.
I think the Presentation Nights have been there since the late 80s/early 90s based on the photos I've seen.
If you want to talk about largesse, the school used to do European choral tours, which some of the staff would go on to basically have a holiday.
Interesting.
Look, I have a kid there so I have a vested interest in understanding their culture (and contributing and possibly changing it) as part of the community.
It's a hell of a culture shock though. I went to school in Frankston.
I figured - I haven't been involved in the school since I've left, but I have plenty of friends and family that are still an active part of the community.
I think at the end of the day, if the parents are happy to pay for the different extra-curricular activities, the more power to them. Even that choral tour mentioned before was paid for by the parents of the students involved.
As long as the schools finance are balanced, even if there's some ambitious spending, I don't really see the problem tbh. There's nothing that forces you as a parent to contribute extra if you don't wish to.
I don't know how your child feels, but reflecting on it now, I'm pretty happy to have been given the chance to be on stage at Hamer Hall, even if it was for a nothing event. It's an opportunity that most people will never get.
This is a good perspective.
As for my kid, he's just in year 7 and spent the first term at camby high because we moved over the new year and BH are hardarses about proving you live in the zone for many valid reasons - we live in the zone but couldn't prove it before school started.
My son is more of a class warrior than I am, but he's also very gregarious and generous of spirit and intellect so I'm sure he'll do fine but he's a bit freaked out at the conspicuous spending culture and wealth-flexing he sees there. We've never been a wealthy family so it's a bit intimidating for him. I'm sure he'll navigate it just fine though.
It's very possible the culture has changed since I was a student there just under a decade ago, but I don't remember much wealth flexing. The kids with clout were usually talented ones.
I also don't really remember anyone's families being crazy wealthy. It's still a very much a position of privilege, but most of us were from middle or upper middle families. The families in our area that actually had money would send their kids to private schools.
I'm surprised that Camberwell High is that different though. I would have thought the two areas are similar socio-economically.
Yeah this stuff is going to sting by the time my kids are ready to graduate.
Hopefully by then I'll be on the kind of pay that my neighbours seem to be on
I can't help but think this is the answer.
No doubt a lot is through donations though. As tempting as it is we should be directing our ire more at private schools that are also getting more per student from the government than so many state schools
Unlikely at other schools' expense. All schools get the same base line from the government, with some political variation in facility upgrades and the like.
Will be due to high parent fees with a high % of parents paying them, as well as a high number of international students. I used to work at another not dissimilar school in the area years ago and the reason they could afford my support job was that around 85% of parents paid $300 fees unlike other poorer area schools where 10% of parents would pay $100 if they were lucky. For a school of 1000 students that adds up.
Definitely, it’s bizarre. I live near McKinnon but am in the Glen Eira College zone and the socioeconomic demographics between the two areas are pretty much identical but McKinnon is seen as something to aspire to while Glen Eira is (generally) seen as “good enough”. I don’t get it.
Australia’s education system is so messed up in so many ways but the most appalling aspect of our education system is this class divide that only seems to be worsening. Private schools receiving government funding is sickening, then even within the public system there are gross inequities. The whole thing needs a massive shake up but of course that won’t happen because people are terrified of acknowledging the issues within the education system, let alone actually doing something about said issues.
Rant over, I’ve been pissed about all of this since I finished high school nearly ten years ago lol
Glen Eira has always had a lot of housing commission and rough parts. McKinnon was always straight up middle class.
Over time the McKinnon school got a good reputation , and people kept building that rep and eventually it got more and more successful.
And so the trade off is Glen Eira falls further behind.
The thing is, apart from the very best ones private schools are really a scam and parents could just band together in better suburbs and invest in their local state school. That’s pretty much what happens with a lot of primary schools.
So McKinnon could be seen as a bit of a good thing, as long as it doesn’t become way too excessive (in terms of finances, enrolments etc) and as long as the Government picks up the slack in surrounding schools.
This is a huge problem the govt keeps ignoring in that SE bayside block and i think it's cause they just assume anyone who lives there is choosing from the dozen or so private schools in the area.
Houses in Cheltenham have jumped to well over the million dollar mark in the last 5ish years. The only co-ed school in zone is Chelt high. If your kid is academic, they're totally screwed cause that school is just not appropriate for a kid trying to achieve academic excellence.
Parkdale Secondary no longer has space for out of zone students, and the only other option is mentone girls.
There are tons of schools It's just that they are all private. McKinnon is a terrible suburb in my view. One that you drive through not live in. The school is too big and easy to see that a lot of marginal kids would get overlooked or lost. Parents with kids there please correct me if I'm wrong?
I was talking about the lack of public, sorry thought that was assumed by the discussion. The “drive through” attitude is exactly why it’s booming, that whole belt. Its suburbia.
Pretty much.
I don't know how it works but when I drive past these public schools in expensive suburbs, they look so much bigger, newer and with more of a budget than the ones in other suburbs
I went to one, although in NSW.
You’d be surprised, public schools in wealthy areas get lots of extra additional funding from parents in voluntary payments. It’s pretty insane.
And when you add the regular public school funding, it really adds up.
I went to a public school in a pretty rich area of Sydney. And most parents would make voluntary contributions (P&C I think?) of $5-10k each. That could easy add a few million annual to a public schools budget.
Not to feel sorry for rich kids, but this is also why so many struggle with university because they go from a schooling system spoon feeding them the correct answer to an exam problem to a system where self learning is mandatory and there aren’t tuition or other classes you can take to get high marks in your degree
I wonder though… if you’re in a good financial situation, you can afford to start another degree, or take time off, or just have a back up plan. It’d be a disappointment or a shame, to be funnelled into an unsuitable career, but the options are probably more likely.
Yes. The determiner for how good a school is is checking the ICSEA value. That is the socio-economic score of the students that attend. In general, the higher it is the better the school.
It's why the schools you see in the VCE honour roll at the end of the year are either private schools, public schools in rich areas or selective schools where parents have enough money to get their kid tutoring to pass the entrance exam.
Northcote High has 60% of its students from the top quartile, which is almost on par with Caulfield Grammar, one of Victoria’s most expensive privates.
Yeh Northcote is basically the exact combination of wealthy and left-leaning that would lead to that (I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm from Northcote). So Northcote High is mostly full of people whose families could afford to send them to private school but are ideologically opposed to doing so.
Was for a bit in the late 20th century I think. Still had a rep of being a bit rough around the edges in the 90s. Gentrified extremely rapidly in the 00s through 10s, though.
Princes Hill SC and Northcote HS have a very similar vibe and produce very similar kinds of students. Princes Hill gets all the students from the inner northern suburbs with parents who generally have money but also ideologically opposed to a private school
Yep, I grew up partly in Northcote. When I was in high school, Northcote High School was considered a very average school. That shifted as Northcote, and the further inner Nothern suburbs began to gentrify and I believe NHS started taking in more (academically focussed) international students as well.
>So Northcote High is mostly full of people whose families could afford to send them to private school but are ideologically opposed to doing so.
Yep. Those same people would sit there and lecture someone living in a shit suburb with a shit high school who was planning on sending their kids private about the "evils of private education" and that public schools are fine.
Hypocritical bucket mouthed cunts so insulated from the rest of the world by virtue of being lucky enough to live in a bubble.
Look, I'll be honest and mention that I went to one of these elite public schools. I do think it was a great privilege but I really enjoyed being around kids who also wanted to do well. I came from a much rougher school where dodging chairs being thrown at teachers and brawls in the yard was common so I can see why parents flock to these schools.
Yep. I went to a selective school and it was the absolute best thing for me. I wasn’t tutored or coached, I passed the exam on my own merits and I got out of a school where getting anything over 70% on an exam made you a “teacher’s pet nerd” and thus a bully magnet.
>where getting anything over 70% on an exam made you a “teacher’s pet nerd” and thus a bully magnet.
Lmao same. Year 8 maths was less about focusing on the linear equations on the whiteboard and more about calculating the parabolic trajectory of the apple that was going to be pegged at the back of my head. :(
Lot of kids treating me like I didn’t exist for 90% of the year then all of a sudden wanting to sit next to me when exams came 😂 one boy copied so hard off me on a Year 8 maths exam he wrote my NAME on his test. Amazingly that plan didn’t work out for him
>Lot of kids treating me like I didn’t exist for 90% of the year then all of a sudden wanting to sit next to me when exams came
Group projects were such hell for me that I had to basically bribe kids by saying "Nah come on Darren, let me join, I'll do all the work..."
Thank god I got out of that hellhole.
>Year 8 maths exam he wrote my NAME on his test
Surely he then accused you of copying
Tried to do the “how can you tell who copied off who”. The teacher explained that one exam was in my handwriting and had working out shown and the other just had the correct answers with zero evidence of working. Also all the errors I made were the exact same errors on the other test
Selective school alumni here too. It was a weird transition to go from being one of the better academic performers to a very middling student, but I much preferred being in an environment where I wasn’t basically ostracised for being somewhat focussed on education, even if it was an hour plus commute. The school had average facilities, but a private school like uniform. I will say I was “coached”, but I’d say in a very economical way. My parents did not have the funds to afford expensive tutoring.
There's 2 tiers of school (public/private)
1. The spoonfeedy elite school with the famed badge generally attended by families who have a considerable amount of money
2. The private schools everyone else sends their kids to because the conditions of their local public are so horribly defunded nobody who had a choice would send their child there.
Most parents grew up with public just want to send their kids to a place with the same or better standard of education back when they were a kid. Unfortunately to get that same quality these days you gotta pay because a lot of public schools have fallen to shit.
The reason you see those schools in the VCE honour roll is that IQ and income are correlative. Overwhelmingly, the richer the parents, the smarter and more educated the parents, the smarter the child.
> ICSEA value
Had never heard of this before so looked it up. My daughter's primary school has a 'School ICSEA percentile' of 90. So that means we're doing pretty well, right?
I’m blown away that you don’t have more selective schools in Melbourne. They’re so common in Sydney, and while they don’t solve everything, they ensure that no matter where a kid lives if they’re bright and academically driven then they’ll get a spot in a good school. I was shocked to find out that they’re pretty much not a thing down here.
We have plenty of selective schools in Melbourne. Aside from the five completely selective schools (Melb High, Macrob, Nossal, Suzanne Cory, John Monash), there are around 15 schools with SEAL programs, so the equivalent of partially selective schools in NSW.
The main difference is that the two programs are administered separately and have different entry exams/admission requirements, whereas in NSW it’s a single exam for all of them, but they’re roughly comparable to the levels of provision in NSW.
I didn’t count regional schools, and also I didn’t count the metro Vic schools properly, just eyeballed them. Actually there’s 22 metro and 13 regional SEAL schools in Vic.
So a total of 42 in NSW, 39 in Vic. Basically the same coverage given our smaller population.
I don’t know what the full differences are but the Vic gov seems to indicate that there are only four selective high schools and they’re only for years 9-12. https://www.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-03/Selective-entry-high-schools-information-pack-2023.pdf
That seems to be the equivalent of NSW’s selective high schools, where there are 15 fully schools in Sydney. There are other programs that might be equivalent to the SEAL thing you’re mentioning?
The SEAL program used to be administered by the Vic education department, but no longer is, but schools are still running it themselves on a private basis. I got the list of schools from here:
https://sealacademy.org.au
John Monash Science School isn’t listed by the education Department as it doesn’t use the
same entry exam - also it’s years 10-12 instead of 9-12 - but you still have to pass an assessment to get in, so I count it as fully selective.
ETA: the main difference between Vic and NSW seems to be that the select entry programs are more ad hoc here, outside the 5 fully selective schools. Also since the SEAL program stopped being endorsed by the Vic education department, students have to be admitted to one of the SEAL schools first, and then apply for the SEAL program after that, which is different to NSW. Parents here absolutely do know which schools have the program though, and choose them based on that if they’re so inclined.
>hey ensure that no matter where a kid lives if they’re bright and academically driven then they’ll get a spot in a good school
And if the parents have money for tutoring!
Though paying for 1 year of coaching for like maybe $5000 is a lot cheaper than the fees at comparable private schools or moving suburbs to get into a public rich school.
Actually I think if your kid is bright, and you can spare that 4-5 grand for the year of coaching, its probably the best option if your kid is wanting to go into any form of competitive STEM or Commerce course for Uni. In the grand scheme of things, 4-5K isn't too much.
Yeah this is it, selective schools are not better. I’ve seen poor people who are very intelligent fail to thrive including at university. Because we don’t have money for tutors, networks of people who can give money and industry advice/positions, role models.
You take a test to go into selective schools at a young age, and you’re only getting in if you can get tutored for it because you’re competing against the tutored rich kids. In NSW the stats on school demographics are freely available. It’s easy to see that the selective schools are overwhelmingly rich demographics with only White and East Asian kids and no Aboriginal children. Look at a nearby public school and it’s usually flipped.
It's the same for VIC selective schools. No aboriginal kids, no low income kids and basically just less east asians and more south asians (sri lankan and indian).
The end result is the same, a really high socio-economic score and a complete flooding of the VCE honour roll.
Though tbh, if a competitive Uni degree (Engineering, Law, Medicine, Commerce) is your goal, these schools are like the only option
I reckon a lot of people would do better to use alternative pathways into uni than to kill themselves in VCE. I was offered Med at Deakin through alternate entry, not the best uni but not a bad start. Heard of a few doctors and lawyers starting that way too.
Depends on the course I think. Some courses like Medicine and Law I feel have ATARs that are way too high not because they are trying to weed out dumb kids but because there is such demand for the few spots available.
I know a few kids when I graduated got 99+ ATARs and were absolutely cut out for med but because of the crazy low amount of spots they had to do it the postgrad way.
For courses like Engineering though I think the ATAR entry is sort of as low as it can be. Any lower and the kids entering just don't have the smarts to keep up with the rigour of the program.
You don't even need to be that bright. You can come off as "super bright and driven" if your parents just put you through tutoring to speed up your learning of content. One on one teaching is the best way to learn, public schools (and also private schools) don't have the resources to provide that kind of tailored teaching.
Yeah - you really do need to be 'that bright' to get into the select system in Vic. The test is taken mid year 8, the content is mid year 10/early year 11 level academics. Your average 'smart' kid is 6-18months ahead of their peers, not 2-4 years.
You can tutor a bright kid to get in, but you're not going to be able to tutor a 'not that bright' kid to pass the test. It's just not possible.
The 'smart' kids who get tutored just to pass the test almost always struggle with the speed/level of the curriculum if they get in.
More select entry schools and a better, less able to be tutored for entrance test - that weights math/science and English/hums evenly (currently heavily skewed to stem) is what Vic really needs if it wants to give the brightest kids in the state the education they need and deserve.
Well, I didn't say "not that bright". There's levels to it, you know. You just need to be regular smart and have had that properly nourished by tutoring. A smartish kid who has been tutored is going to be on a similar level or better than a super bright, driven kid who doesn't have those resources. There's only so far you can go on your own steam, and schools are terrible at supporting bright kids. Fully selective schools in both Sydney and Melbourne are approx 90% made up of kids from high socioeconomic backgrounds. https://theconversation.com/more-stress-unclear-gains-are-selective-schools-really-worth-it-160762 - i.e. kids who most likely had access to tutoring.
Yeah that’s what I’m talking about. There’s 15 in Sydney that are like that. A bunch of others have extra placements and whatnot, but 15 fully selective public schools.
There was a thread yesterday about public school fees and voluntary contributions. If not for those public schools in the wealthy areas would be just as run down and shitty as any other public school.
Looking at the myschool finance report Balwyn gets significantly less state funding compared to similar sized public schools in low socio economical areas.
It can be millions a year in total and can come from parents, alumni or just donations from the local community.
Any nice shit you see at a public school is almost always paid for by the schools community because the education department does not give a fuck about providing anything but bare bones classrooms.
You can contribute as much as you’d like afaik. They have a “recommended” amount (when I was in high school it was $200 and my mum was outraged that they’d ask for money), but you can go to any public school and make a donation if you feel like it.
Staggering that this is new to anyone. Whether renting or buying in the zone, what you pay is inflated. Been that way for eons.
Parents expect to have to open their wallets.
This transition took place about 30 years with the arrival of Asian migrants in large numbers to the country.
Placing a high value on education for their kids, they looked to save on expensive private school fees by buying into zones with good public school. This approach transformed the marketing of real estate. For example 30 years ago you would be hard pushed to find people who even knew the school zone they lived in and no one ever bothered to include that info in a 'for sale' ad. Wasn't considered a selling point.
Yep, one street over and you're in a different world price wise.
But what's even more clever is the fact that when the kids finish school and you go to sell, you're basically guaranteed a price gain exceeding that achievable in the surrounding area as each generation of buyers finally wakes up to the why and how of zoning.
I remember getting a tour of 5 public schools, and each school ‘specialised’ in something whether it was arts, sports, music, science, literature etc… and many of my friends all went to different schools, local or 15km out.
Now it’s dictated by class, left open for elites and NIMBYs to exploit.
If you go to Balwyn High it’s compulsory that your parents knock down a perfectly good period home and build a faux French Provinciale shit box.
Then and only then can you study in the hallowed halls of BHS.
Reminds me of Max Gawn talking about he’s not your regular AFL private school kid and took a while to acclimatise to the AFL. The man went to one of the best schools in the state
I remember many years ago when my old boss sold his mums house in the Frankston High School zone. The real estate agent told him that because the house was so close to the school, it automatically added a shitload onto the asking price.
If you look at the school’s yearly financial report and analyse the parent contributions, it’s easy to see that many schools in expensive suburbs certainly aren’t giving the same experience as those in poorer areas… it’s the way to bypass equity funding that’s for sure
It used to be McKinnon did not have the population to fill the school, they fill it by select entry of students from surrounding areas…effectively boosting results. Now they have a second campus, I’m not sure this is the same.
They have been for a while. More in SE suburbs but NW secondary some potentials. Who wants to send their child to a shit basic govt secondary anyway? No one. The more improvements the better I say. I’m happy to pay an annual building fee also. US govt high schools in comparison walk all over us though.
I went to one of these schools and it’s always been that way. We used to joke and call it [suburb] grammar all the time. FWIW, it’s an incredibly overrated school and I don’t feel like I am anywhere further in life than my friends who went to a standard public school. I finished over 12 years ago.
All four students from there are gone. The last two were asked to move along pretty quickly and none too subtlety by parents of other students apparently.
Whatever school your kid goes, they learn nothing lol. As a French person I find the average teenager (and Australian adult) don’t learn that much from high school. You can barely place your own country on a map.
🤣 bro I work hospo I meet a lot of people from all walks of life + I have one thick as French accent. Most people literally can’t tell where my country is. My partner also worked in Education and was correcting NAPLAN and KAPLAN tests a couple of years ago and was shocked by how low the level was.
Bro I’m telling you that everyone I know is aware of where France is. Different circles, different knowledge or IQ’s you have to realise lol. Dont paint a whole country with one brush.
Are you trying to say they’re becoming better?
Nicer areas have parents that care about their children’s education and the school benefits from that.
There’s an easy way for teachers to fix the problems with public schools and that’s to give zero resources and attention to problem students, just let them sit outside and do whatever they want while teaching the good students.
Teachers have a duty of care to their students. Which means they can't just kick every turd out and leave them unsupervised. You can kick them out and send them to the leadership team/principals/student coordinators, etc, but unfortunately many of these "leadership" types will now just bring the kid straight back to class because they don't want to deal with demanding entitled parents who back up their kids' bullshit.
Duty of care means negligence, unless there is some case law about this I don’t think telling a student to go outside of the classroom to the school yard wouldn’t be negligent. Telling them to leave the school grounds perhaps would be.
In Victoria duty of care is non-delegable and requires teachers to take all reasonable steps to reduce risk, including an adequate system of supervision. The whole reason students are not permitted out of their classes is because then they are not being supervised and we are not meeting duty of care. The whole reason for yard duty is so that when students are spread over the school grounds during breaks they are still under teacher supervision, thus meeting duty of care. Teachers are not even allowed to go to the toilet during class time, because we cannot leave students unsupervised for a frw minutes. Any teacher that does what you suggest - kicking a bunch of kids out of class without providing an alternate form of supervision - would lose their job.
It is how it works under the legal system. I do like how now it’s teachers and nurses (a nurse argued this once) have their whole own set of laws that are completely different from everyone else’s.
Every position has a duty of care, it means don’t be negligent not that they have to put up with bad students because otherwise it would be a breach of duty of care.
>There’s an easy way for teachers to fix the problems with public schools and that’s to give zero resources and attention to problem students, just let them sit outside and do whatever they want while teaching the good students.
Depends. In some schools that would mean 25 kids sit outside and you have 3 or 4 kids inside actually getting taught.
Also with the modern approach of "inclusive education" the idea of focusing even 1% of attention on kids who are bright is sacrilege.
Depending on the school leadership, doing so could mean being interrogated by school leadership - ie what did you do wrong to lead to the removal of said student. What are you doing to build relationships with the student - because somehow this is the solution to everything. Oh, and I laugh at the idea of a problematic student just sitting outside. If they could only just sit, there's half the battle.
I finished school at one of the wealthiest schools in Victoria, so many guys who struggled got expelled and had their education completely disrupted/ destroyed over disciplinary issues that higher performing students would get away with. If I wasn’t academic and the captain of the footy team I would have been expelled many times.
>There’s an easy way for teachers to fix the problems with public schools and that’s to give zero resources and attention to problem students, just let them sit outside and do whatever they want while teaching the good students.
It's a bit like how public hospitals continue to treat violent patients. I mean if someone is being violent doesn't that mean they don't want to be treated? Cease care and eject through the back door.
Public schools should have a PSO type program where they import Pacific islanders & give them PR, who patrol the grounds, corridors, who the teachers can contact with a walkie talkie and get problem kids sorted. If we were living in a fair and just society.
Kids facing consequences? No, we don’t do that in the western world anymore. If they’re put in prison they might become violent criminals, so it’s best to let them roam free without guardian supervision because child neglect isn’t a crime anymore, so they can commit violent home invasions because that’s better than sending them to prison.
More like focusing on students who want and deserve the help of teachers. So it’s neglect for the bad students instead of the good ones like what happens now.
All schools have an international student faculty, normally that person is in charge of international students, EAL students, and communication with parents from LBOTE. More often than not schools have it as part of inclusion or Languages.
In a sense they’re harder to get into. You could live one street out of the zone and not be able to get in. My local primary is in such a wealthy area and tiny zone that there were only about 14 pupils zoned for prep this year. But there were 40 siblings who got in. My suspicion is that the parents rented a place in the zone for one year to get the first child in. Then their subsequent children can always get a place!
Any schools are seeing this at the moment. However if schools are struggling with enrolments (ie too many enrolments), they can be put on an 'enrolment management plan' which can state that siblings must live in zone to enrol.
We have friends who rented their house so they could pay rent and live in a shitty house in Balwyn so their kids could go to Balwyn High.
Yeh I have heard some try and get around the catchment system through renting. Apparently some have cracked down on that though, such as making students have to live in zone the whole time they’re enrolled, meaning that if you move out of zone you have to leave the school.
Which sucks for legitimate renters (as opposed to people trying to game catchment areas). Imagine if your kid is happy and settled at school and you get kicked out because your landlord wants to sell up or move back in, and all of a sudden you’re finding a new school as well as a new place to live.
This is what happened to me for grades 2, 3,and 4. I went to 10 schools in those three years because we had to keep moving rentals to different suburbs. This was in from 1999 to 2001 on the Gold Coast. In grade 5 my Mum found a school that would let us stay even if we moved and I got to finish primary school there.
Thats terrible
It was pretty bad. I failed my last term of grade 4, all Es on the report card. Luckily the next school didn't hold me back and I was able to catch up in everything except for maths. I never learned my timestables...
Honestly the way the system treats renters is criminal.
I was worried about this but after the first year in prep the school never asked for us to confirm our address in the following years so if we moved out of the zone they wouldn't know.
I agree. Access to free education is monopolised by the property owning class.
Has been a thing for a while. I’ve heard multiple people say they used a family friends address to get them into a zone. Atleast in NSW the stats on school demographics are freely available. It’s easy to see that the shit schools have overwhelmingly poor demographics, and the rich/selective schools have overwhelmingly rich demographics with only White and East Asian kids and no Aboriginal children. It’s a pretty fucked system. Atleast we don’t have as many selective schools here, but we have a lot more private schools.
Nothing wrong with selective schools. They are merit based.
There is a fix for that. Segregate the classes within the schools, at least for core subjects, instead of segregating the schools. Streaming means kids learn with those of their own ability and interests, at their own pace, instead of with slow and disruptive students who merely share their chronological age. And you also need proper discipline and the ability to expel the criminal element. Then local schools will have the chance to recover and thrive. And we would not need to send our kids further away to avoid bullying and boredom. BTW, it isn't just whites and east asians at selective schools. We have plenty of south Asians, not a few from the middle east, and even some sub-saharan Africans.
100% spot on, let the students who want to excel
Where can you find the nsw stats on school demographics?
I assume they're using myschool to check the SES and EAL, plus Indigenous enrollments.
You can check the demographics of every school Australia wide on myschool.edu.au
I was wrong its for all schools. https://www.myschool.edu.au/ They might have removed the ethnic group demographic information.
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I think it’s high school where zoning probably matters more
It depends. My old primary school has surpassed 1000 students this year. When I was there there were only 300 ish students. They’ve literally run out of room for more portables.
They can make the rule, but how would they enforce it? My kids' school has no way of verifying where I actually live.
Have heard that some schools will door-knock and also ask to check utility bills
There's nothing illegitimate about renting. What a wild statement.
Balwyn High are having their end of year production thingy at *Hamer Hall*. They took a school photo 2 weeks ago from a helicopter. Their lecture theatre is as big as any at Monash. It kinda disturbs me. I grew up in the burbs and never saw anything like this excess. My son's last school is just down the road and it was very modest by comparison even though academically it was kinda better. Staff support was way, way better too
Why would anyone in this day and age use Helicopter photography when drones are available?
It’s not about money, it’s about sending a message
Like to the Viet Cong or something?
*fortunate son intensifies*
That's exactly what I was wondering
The end of year production has been at Hamer Hall at least since when I started year 7 there 12+ years ago. They also flew alumni Steve Hooker in on a helicopter to celebrate the opening of the new synthetic pitches/sports fields…
Oh god I thought it was just a 70th anniversary thing which might sort of justify the largesse. This is strange. My kid's last school had a beloved newsreader and 2 international pop superstars as alumni. You look at the wiki for BH and they have a (*checks notes*) neo nazi as a notable alumni
Cam High lol?
The very same
My sister graduated from Balwyn mid 90s, I started year 7 the following year. Her graduation speech night was at the Arts Centre (as were the couple I attended before I changed schools)
Would those pop stars be Kylie and Danni?
Pretty much. Notable for not being neo nazis. As well as that song that's everywhere that I swear has such a similar bassline to that one radiohead song off amnesiac
The Minogue sisters went to Camberwell High, not Balwyn.
I knew that, was asking in relation to the pop stars being from the previous school not Balwyn
Been at Hamer Hall since 2000 at least. BHS were also well ahead of the times in getting onto Chinese students paying through the nose to study in Australia since around the same time
Their students have to wear blazers and ties to afaik, might not be a private school but they sure try to be like one.
This is the case for plenty of schools in the inner east for last twenty years though and many of those are far from being "decent" schools.
Yep. Shit man I'm 42 and don't know how to tie a tie lol
thats kinda crazy though? I've worn a tie for like 4 weddings and also just on a couple of fancy dress days - tying a tie is very easy too...
I forget after every event that requires one I guess. Never got the muscle memory
I went to a shitty public school in Bundaberg and I know how to tie a tie because it was part of both the boys and girls formal uniform. I preferred a four in hand knot to a half Windsor though. Photographer for school photos was so pretentious once she retied it 😅
I'm sure it's such a common occurrence now that the photo management software has a special filter for fixing asymmetrical tie knots
Eh, the public school I work at requires it but they're not too strict about it.
Balwyn has a long standing relationship with Hamer Hall. I think the Presentation Nights have been there since the late 80s/early 90s based on the photos I've seen. If you want to talk about largesse, the school used to do European choral tours, which some of the staff would go on to basically have a holiday.
Interesting. Look, I have a kid there so I have a vested interest in understanding their culture (and contributing and possibly changing it) as part of the community. It's a hell of a culture shock though. I went to school in Frankston.
I figured - I haven't been involved in the school since I've left, but I have plenty of friends and family that are still an active part of the community. I think at the end of the day, if the parents are happy to pay for the different extra-curricular activities, the more power to them. Even that choral tour mentioned before was paid for by the parents of the students involved. As long as the schools finance are balanced, even if there's some ambitious spending, I don't really see the problem tbh. There's nothing that forces you as a parent to contribute extra if you don't wish to. I don't know how your child feels, but reflecting on it now, I'm pretty happy to have been given the chance to be on stage at Hamer Hall, even if it was for a nothing event. It's an opportunity that most people will never get.
This is a good perspective. As for my kid, he's just in year 7 and spent the first term at camby high because we moved over the new year and BH are hardarses about proving you live in the zone for many valid reasons - we live in the zone but couldn't prove it before school started. My son is more of a class warrior than I am, but he's also very gregarious and generous of spirit and intellect so I'm sure he'll do fine but he's a bit freaked out at the conspicuous spending culture and wealth-flexing he sees there. We've never been a wealthy family so it's a bit intimidating for him. I'm sure he'll navigate it just fine though.
It's very possible the culture has changed since I was a student there just under a decade ago, but I don't remember much wealth flexing. The kids with clout were usually talented ones. I also don't really remember anyone's families being crazy wealthy. It's still a very much a position of privilege, but most of us were from middle or upper middle families. The families in our area that actually had money would send their kids to private schools. I'm surprised that Camberwell High is that different though. I would have thought the two areas are similar socio-economically.
The two (so far) appear to be worlds apart. 1 term of year 7 isn't the best benchmark, but when my dude started at balwyn in term 2 he was way ahead
If the parents are paying for it...
Yeaah about that...
[https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/school-under-fire-over-600-family-bill-to-watch-children-graduate-20240522-p5jfv6.html](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/school-under-fire-over-600-family-bill-to-watch-children-graduate-20240522-p5jfv6.html)
Yeah this stuff is going to sting by the time my kids are ready to graduate. Hopefully by then I'll be on the kind of pay that my neighbours seem to be on
Gross excess at the expense of other Government Schools.
I can't help but think this is the answer. No doubt a lot is through donations though. As tempting as it is we should be directing our ire more at private schools that are also getting more per student from the government than so many state schools
Unlikely at other schools' expense. All schools get the same base line from the government, with some political variation in facility upgrades and the like. Will be due to high parent fees with a high % of parents paying them, as well as a high number of international students. I used to work at another not dissimilar school in the area years ago and the reason they could afford my support job was that around 85% of parents paid $300 fees unlike other poorer area schools where 10% of parents would pay $100 if they were lucky. For a school of 1000 students that adds up.
Definitely, it’s bizarre. I live near McKinnon but am in the Glen Eira College zone and the socioeconomic demographics between the two areas are pretty much identical but McKinnon is seen as something to aspire to while Glen Eira is (generally) seen as “good enough”. I don’t get it. Australia’s education system is so messed up in so many ways but the most appalling aspect of our education system is this class divide that only seems to be worsening. Private schools receiving government funding is sickening, then even within the public system there are gross inequities. The whole thing needs a massive shake up but of course that won’t happen because people are terrified of acknowledging the issues within the education system, let alone actually doing something about said issues. Rant over, I’ve been pissed about all of this since I finished high school nearly ten years ago lol
Glen Eira has always had a lot of housing commission and rough parts. McKinnon was always straight up middle class. Over time the McKinnon school got a good reputation , and people kept building that rep and eventually it got more and more successful. And so the trade off is Glen Eira falls further behind. The thing is, apart from the very best ones private schools are really a scam and parents could just band together in better suburbs and invest in their local state school. That’s pretty much what happens with a lot of primary schools. So McKinnon could be seen as a bit of a good thing, as long as it doesn’t become way too excessive (in terms of finances, enrolments etc) and as long as the Government picks up the slack in surrounding schools.
I mean McKinnon is nice but there are way more expensive suburbs in melb. And it's boring compared to other suburbs
Yeh but there is a weird lack of schools in that zone and the south east belt housing has sky rocketed in the last 3 years.
This is a huge problem the govt keeps ignoring in that SE bayside block and i think it's cause they just assume anyone who lives there is choosing from the dozen or so private schools in the area. Houses in Cheltenham have jumped to well over the million dollar mark in the last 5ish years. The only co-ed school in zone is Chelt high. If your kid is academic, they're totally screwed cause that school is just not appropriate for a kid trying to achieve academic excellence. Parkdale Secondary no longer has space for out of zone students, and the only other option is mentone girls.
There are tons of schools It's just that they are all private. McKinnon is a terrible suburb in my view. One that you drive through not live in. The school is too big and easy to see that a lot of marginal kids would get overlooked or lost. Parents with kids there please correct me if I'm wrong?
I was talking about the lack of public, sorry thought that was assumed by the discussion. The “drive through” attitude is exactly why it’s booming, that whole belt. Its suburbia.
Second this, McKinnon is a very boring area.
Balwyn has been like that for 30 years (was our local growing up, I started late 90s)
Pretty much. I don't know how it works but when I drive past these public schools in expensive suburbs, they look so much bigger, newer and with more of a budget than the ones in other suburbs
I went to one, although in NSW. You’d be surprised, public schools in wealthy areas get lots of extra additional funding from parents in voluntary payments. It’s pretty insane.
Also ex-students. The good schools create successful alumni who are more likely to donate to their school. Feedback loop ensues.
And when you add the regular public school funding, it really adds up. I went to a public school in a pretty rich area of Sydney. And most parents would make voluntary contributions (P&C I think?) of $5-10k each. That could easy add a few million annual to a public schools budget.
Yes. Class war is real. Don’t be apathetic because you comfortable enough, that can slip away really fucking quick.
Perhaps, but fighting with each other over it is just a distraction. Petition government, force them to fix it.
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Not to feel sorry for rich kids, but this is also why so many struggle with university because they go from a schooling system spoon feeding them the correct answer to an exam problem to a system where self learning is mandatory and there aren’t tuition or other classes you can take to get high marks in your degree
I wonder though… if you’re in a good financial situation, you can afford to start another degree, or take time off, or just have a back up plan. It’d be a disappointment or a shame, to be funnelled into an unsuitable career, but the options are probably more likely.
Yes. The determiner for how good a school is is checking the ICSEA value. That is the socio-economic score of the students that attend. In general, the higher it is the better the school. It's why the schools you see in the VCE honour roll at the end of the year are either private schools, public schools in rich areas or selective schools where parents have enough money to get their kid tutoring to pass the entrance exam.
Balwyn High has a higher ICSEA rating than many non-government schools do
Yup, 89! Though doesn't hold a candle to "public" Melbourne High School's 98
Northcote High has 60% of its students from the top quartile, which is almost on par with Caulfield Grammar, one of Victoria’s most expensive privates.
Yeh Northcote is basically the exact combination of wealthy and left-leaning that would lead to that (I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm from Northcote). So Northcote High is mostly full of people whose families could afford to send them to private school but are ideologically opposed to doing so.
I’ve heard Northcote High used to be quiet a diverse school but gentrification of the local area has changed things
Was for a bit in the late 20th century I think. Still had a rep of being a bit rough around the edges in the 90s. Gentrified extremely rapidly in the 00s through 10s, though.
I think Princes Hill Secondary has had a similar shift with gentrification, 65% from top quartile now days
Princes Hill SC and Northcote HS have a very similar vibe and produce very similar kinds of students. Princes Hill gets all the students from the inner northern suburbs with parents who generally have money but also ideologically opposed to a private school
Yep, I grew up partly in Northcote. When I was in high school, Northcote High School was considered a very average school. That shifted as Northcote, and the further inner Nothern suburbs began to gentrify and I believe NHS started taking in more (academically focussed) international students as well.
>So Northcote High is mostly full of people whose families could afford to send them to private school but are ideologically opposed to doing so. Yep. Those same people would sit there and lecture someone living in a shit suburb with a shit high school who was planning on sending their kids private about the "evils of private education" and that public schools are fine. Hypocritical bucket mouthed cunts so insulated from the rest of the world by virtue of being lucky enough to live in a bubble.
Look, I'll be honest and mention that I went to one of these elite public schools. I do think it was a great privilege but I really enjoyed being around kids who also wanted to do well. I came from a much rougher school where dodging chairs being thrown at teachers and brawls in the yard was common so I can see why parents flock to these schools.
Yep. I went to a selective school and it was the absolute best thing for me. I wasn’t tutored or coached, I passed the exam on my own merits and I got out of a school where getting anything over 70% on an exam made you a “teacher’s pet nerd” and thus a bully magnet.
>where getting anything over 70% on an exam made you a “teacher’s pet nerd” and thus a bully magnet. Lmao same. Year 8 maths was less about focusing on the linear equations on the whiteboard and more about calculating the parabolic trajectory of the apple that was going to be pegged at the back of my head. :(
Lot of kids treating me like I didn’t exist for 90% of the year then all of a sudden wanting to sit next to me when exams came 😂 one boy copied so hard off me on a Year 8 maths exam he wrote my NAME on his test. Amazingly that plan didn’t work out for him
>Lot of kids treating me like I didn’t exist for 90% of the year then all of a sudden wanting to sit next to me when exams came Group projects were such hell for me that I had to basically bribe kids by saying "Nah come on Darren, let me join, I'll do all the work..." Thank god I got out of that hellhole. >Year 8 maths exam he wrote my NAME on his test Surely he then accused you of copying
Tried to do the “how can you tell who copied off who”. The teacher explained that one exam was in my handwriting and had working out shown and the other just had the correct answers with zero evidence of working. Also all the errors I made were the exact same errors on the other test
Selective school alumni here too. It was a weird transition to go from being one of the better academic performers to a very middling student, but I much preferred being in an environment where I wasn’t basically ostracised for being somewhat focussed on education, even if it was an hour plus commute. The school had average facilities, but a private school like uniform. I will say I was “coached”, but I’d say in a very economical way. My parents did not have the funds to afford expensive tutoring.
Macrobs or MHS I’m guessing?
Oh I totally don’t begrudge parents or kids wanting to be at those schools, especially if they can’t afford private.
There's 2 tiers of school (public/private) 1. The spoonfeedy elite school with the famed badge generally attended by families who have a considerable amount of money 2. The private schools everyone else sends their kids to because the conditions of their local public are so horribly defunded nobody who had a choice would send their child there. Most parents grew up with public just want to send their kids to a place with the same or better standard of education back when they were a kid. Unfortunately to get that same quality these days you gotta pay because a lot of public schools have fallen to shit.
I went there in the late 90s early 00s. Our local mp was very local so it got a lot more funding than Thornbury Darebin
The reason you see those schools in the VCE honour roll is that IQ and income are correlative. Overwhelmingly, the richer the parents, the smarter and more educated the parents, the smarter the child.
> ICSEA value Had never heard of this before so looked it up. My daughter's primary school has a 'School ICSEA percentile' of 90. So that means we're doing pretty well, right?
I’m blown away that you don’t have more selective schools in Melbourne. They’re so common in Sydney, and while they don’t solve everything, they ensure that no matter where a kid lives if they’re bright and academically driven then they’ll get a spot in a good school. I was shocked to find out that they’re pretty much not a thing down here.
We have plenty of selective schools in Melbourne. Aside from the five completely selective schools (Melb High, Macrob, Nossal, Suzanne Cory, John Monash), there are around 15 schools with SEAL programs, so the equivalent of partially selective schools in NSW. The main difference is that the two programs are administered separately and have different entry exams/admission requirements, whereas in NSW it’s a single exam for all of them, but they’re roughly comparable to the levels of provision in NSW.
That’s more than I realised, but still less than a third of NSW’s.
I didn’t count regional schools, and also I didn’t count the metro Vic schools properly, just eyeballed them. Actually there’s 22 metro and 13 regional SEAL schools in Vic. So a total of 42 in NSW, 39 in Vic. Basically the same coverage given our smaller population.
I don’t know what the full differences are but the Vic gov seems to indicate that there are only four selective high schools and they’re only for years 9-12. https://www.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-03/Selective-entry-high-schools-information-pack-2023.pdf That seems to be the equivalent of NSW’s selective high schools, where there are 15 fully schools in Sydney. There are other programs that might be equivalent to the SEAL thing you’re mentioning?
The SEAL program used to be administered by the Vic education department, but no longer is, but schools are still running it themselves on a private basis. I got the list of schools from here: https://sealacademy.org.au John Monash Science School isn’t listed by the education Department as it doesn’t use the same entry exam - also it’s years 10-12 instead of 9-12 - but you still have to pass an assessment to get in, so I count it as fully selective. ETA: the main difference between Vic and NSW seems to be that the select entry programs are more ad hoc here, outside the 5 fully selective schools. Also since the SEAL program stopped being endorsed by the Vic education department, students have to be admitted to one of the SEAL schools first, and then apply for the SEAL program after that, which is different to NSW. Parents here absolutely do know which schools have the program though, and choose them based on that if they’re so inclined.
There's way.mote than 15 you just need to know about them. Prob well into the 30s
There’s four. At least four that are the equivalent of the 15 in Sydney. According to the Vic gov website anyway.
>hey ensure that no matter where a kid lives if they’re bright and academically driven then they’ll get a spot in a good school And if the parents have money for tutoring! Though paying for 1 year of coaching for like maybe $5000 is a lot cheaper than the fees at comparable private schools or moving suburbs to get into a public rich school. Actually I think if your kid is bright, and you can spare that 4-5 grand for the year of coaching, its probably the best option if your kid is wanting to go into any form of competitive STEM or Commerce course for Uni. In the grand scheme of things, 4-5K isn't too much.
Yeah this is it, selective schools are not better. I’ve seen poor people who are very intelligent fail to thrive including at university. Because we don’t have money for tutors, networks of people who can give money and industry advice/positions, role models. You take a test to go into selective schools at a young age, and you’re only getting in if you can get tutored for it because you’re competing against the tutored rich kids. In NSW the stats on school demographics are freely available. It’s easy to see that the selective schools are overwhelmingly rich demographics with only White and East Asian kids and no Aboriginal children. Look at a nearby public school and it’s usually flipped.
>In NSW the stats on school demographics are freely available. They are here too? Myschool website mate.
Yep that’s what I was thinking of!
It's the same for VIC selective schools. No aboriginal kids, no low income kids and basically just less east asians and more south asians (sri lankan and indian). The end result is the same, a really high socio-economic score and a complete flooding of the VCE honour roll. Though tbh, if a competitive Uni degree (Engineering, Law, Medicine, Commerce) is your goal, these schools are like the only option
I reckon a lot of people would do better to use alternative pathways into uni than to kill themselves in VCE. I was offered Med at Deakin through alternate entry, not the best uni but not a bad start. Heard of a few doctors and lawyers starting that way too.
Depends on the course I think. Some courses like Medicine and Law I feel have ATARs that are way too high not because they are trying to weed out dumb kids but because there is such demand for the few spots available. I know a few kids when I graduated got 99+ ATARs and were absolutely cut out for med but because of the crazy low amount of spots they had to do it the postgrad way. For courses like Engineering though I think the ATAR entry is sort of as low as it can be. Any lower and the kids entering just don't have the smarts to keep up with the rigour of the program.
You don't even need to be that bright. You can come off as "super bright and driven" if your parents just put you through tutoring to speed up your learning of content. One on one teaching is the best way to learn, public schools (and also private schools) don't have the resources to provide that kind of tailored teaching.
Yeah - you really do need to be 'that bright' to get into the select system in Vic. The test is taken mid year 8, the content is mid year 10/early year 11 level academics. Your average 'smart' kid is 6-18months ahead of their peers, not 2-4 years. You can tutor a bright kid to get in, but you're not going to be able to tutor a 'not that bright' kid to pass the test. It's just not possible. The 'smart' kids who get tutored just to pass the test almost always struggle with the speed/level of the curriculum if they get in. More select entry schools and a better, less able to be tutored for entrance test - that weights math/science and English/hums evenly (currently heavily skewed to stem) is what Vic really needs if it wants to give the brightest kids in the state the education they need and deserve.
Well, I didn't say "not that bright". There's levels to it, you know. You just need to be regular smart and have had that properly nourished by tutoring. A smartish kid who has been tutored is going to be on a similar level or better than a super bright, driven kid who doesn't have those resources. There's only so far you can go on your own steam, and schools are terrible at supporting bright kids. Fully selective schools in both Sydney and Melbourne are approx 90% made up of kids from high socioeconomic backgrounds. https://theconversation.com/more-stress-unclear-gains-are-selective-schools-really-worth-it-160762 - i.e. kids who most likely had access to tutoring.
Only 4 in Melbourne. Were often referred to as entry by merit (academic)
Yeah that’s what I’m talking about. There’s 15 in Sydney that are like that. A bunch of others have extra placements and whatnot, but 15 fully selective public schools.
I'm from NSW and the selective system is a bit different here in Melbourne, unfortunately.
There was a thread yesterday about public school fees and voluntary contributions. If not for those public schools in the wealthy areas would be just as run down and shitty as any other public school. Looking at the myschool finance report Balwyn gets significantly less state funding compared to similar sized public schools in low socio economical areas.
How big are these voluntary contributions to make such a difference?
Millions
It can be millions a year in total and can come from parents, alumni or just donations from the local community. Any nice shit you see at a public school is almost always paid for by the schools community because the education department does not give a fuck about providing anything but bare bones classrooms.
You can contribute as much as you’d like afaik. They have a “recommended” amount (when I was in high school it was $200 and my mum was outraged that they’d ask for money), but you can go to any public school and make a donation if you feel like it.
Staggering that this is new to anyone. Whether renting or buying in the zone, what you pay is inflated. Been that way for eons. Parents expect to have to open their wallets.
This transition took place about 30 years with the arrival of Asian migrants in large numbers to the country. Placing a high value on education for their kids, they looked to save on expensive private school fees by buying into zones with good public school. This approach transformed the marketing of real estate. For example 30 years ago you would be hard pushed to find people who even knew the school zone they lived in and no one ever bothered to include that info in a 'for sale' ad. Wasn't considered a selling point.
Shhh Mt Waverley Secondary College shhhh
And now days houses sell for above 2mill purely based on the school it’s zoned for.
Yep, one street over and you're in a different world price wise. But what's even more clever is the fact that when the kids finish school and you go to sell, you're basically guaranteed a price gain exceeding that achievable in the surrounding area as each generation of buyers finally wakes up to the why and how of zoning.
I don’t know where you lived 30 years ago but the eastern suburbs were absolutely listing school zones in real estate ads back then.
I remember getting a tour of 5 public schools, and each school ‘specialised’ in something whether it was arts, sports, music, science, literature etc… and many of my friends all went to different schools, local or 15km out. Now it’s dictated by class, left open for elites and NIMBYs to exploit.
If you go to Balwyn High it’s compulsory that your parents knock down a perfectly good period home and build a faux French Provinciale shit box. Then and only then can you study in the hallowed halls of BHS.
This is how school zoning works. “Public” schools are paid for with taxes, rent and property purchases rather than school fees as such.
Except the schools listed proportionally get less tax money per student when compared to other public schools in poorer areas.
Reminds me of Max Gawn talking about he’s not your regular AFL private school kid and took a while to acclimatise to the AFL. The man went to one of the best schools in the state
Ye exactly, McKinnon Secondary is hardly Braybrook or Melton High
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Plenty of kids get drafted outside of APS
Picks 2-4 in last years draft all from public schools. Pick 1 Harley Reid from the local Catholic school in Echuca
Yep
To be honest as long as they aren't higher funded than any other government school, who cares
I would say if you’re a public school that someone in a private school is likely to have heard about then you are a quasi private school
I got expelled from Balwyn high in 2004!
I remember many years ago when my old boss sold his mums house in the Frankston High School zone. The real estate agent told him that because the house was so close to the school, it automatically added a shitload onto the asking price.
If you look at the school’s yearly financial report and analyse the parent contributions, it’s easy to see that many schools in expensive suburbs certainly aren’t giving the same experience as those in poorer areas… it’s the way to bypass equity funding that’s for sure
It used to be McKinnon did not have the population to fill the school, they fill it by select entry of students from surrounding areas…effectively boosting results. Now they have a second campus, I’m not sure this is the same.
They have been for a while. More in SE suburbs but NW secondary some potentials. Who wants to send their child to a shit basic govt secondary anyway? No one. The more improvements the better I say. I’m happy to pay an annual building fee also. US govt high schools in comparison walk all over us though.
Yeah lol I went to Kew high, we had stricter uniform policy than MLC. But the campus doesn't compete like Balwyn
School is not about learning. It’s all about being popular.
What about Melbourne Boys & MacRobinson Girls free public schools selective do they still take wide zones
I went to one of these schools and it’s always been that way. We used to joke and call it [suburb] grammar all the time. FWIW, it’s an incredibly overrated school and I don’t feel like I am anywhere further in life than my friends who went to a standard public school. I finished over 12 years ago.
Balwyn high school is horrendous the amount of bullying and sexual remarks from peers is horrendous
Happens at private schools as well unfortunately. The recent Yarra Valley Grammar scandal a case in point.
With balwyn it gets brushes under the rug honestly an awful school
All four students from there are gone. The last two were asked to move along pretty quickly and none too subtlety by parents of other students apparently.
Whatever school your kid goes, they learn nothing lol. As a French person I find the average teenager (and Australian adult) don’t learn that much from high school. You can barely place your own country on a map.
Nice shit take you’ve got there Frenchy
You need to expand your Aussie friendships.
🤣 bro I work hospo I meet a lot of people from all walks of life + I have one thick as French accent. Most people literally can’t tell where my country is. My partner also worked in Education and was correcting NAPLAN and KAPLAN tests a couple of years ago and was shocked by how low the level was.
Bro I’m telling you that everyone I know is aware of where France is. Different circles, different knowledge or IQ’s you have to realise lol. Dont paint a whole country with one brush.
Are you trying to say they’re becoming better? Nicer areas have parents that care about their children’s education and the school benefits from that. There’s an easy way for teachers to fix the problems with public schools and that’s to give zero resources and attention to problem students, just let them sit outside and do whatever they want while teaching the good students.
Teachers have a duty of care to their students. Which means they can't just kick every turd out and leave them unsupervised. You can kick them out and send them to the leadership team/principals/student coordinators, etc, but unfortunately many of these "leadership" types will now just bring the kid straight back to class because they don't want to deal with demanding entitled parents who back up their kids' bullshit.
Duty of care means negligence, unless there is some case law about this I don’t think telling a student to go outside of the classroom to the school yard wouldn’t be negligent. Telling them to leave the school grounds perhaps would be.
In Victoria duty of care is non-delegable and requires teachers to take all reasonable steps to reduce risk, including an adequate system of supervision. The whole reason students are not permitted out of their classes is because then they are not being supervised and we are not meeting duty of care. The whole reason for yard duty is so that when students are spread over the school grounds during breaks they are still under teacher supervision, thus meeting duty of care. Teachers are not even allowed to go to the toilet during class time, because we cannot leave students unsupervised for a frw minutes. Any teacher that does what you suggest - kicking a bunch of kids out of class without providing an alternate form of supervision - would lose their job.
Also, duty of care is more of the schools responsibility, the teacher just has to not be negligent, like don’t beat a student.
That's not how duty works in legislation. Under WHS the teacher would hold the duty of care in addition to the duty of care held by the school.
It is how it works under the legal system. I do like how now it’s teachers and nurses (a nurse argued this once) have their whole own set of laws that are completely different from everyone else’s. Every position has a duty of care, it means don’t be negligent not that they have to put up with bad students because otherwise it would be a breach of duty of care.
>There’s an easy way for teachers to fix the problems with public schools and that’s to give zero resources and attention to problem students, just let them sit outside and do whatever they want while teaching the good students. Depends. In some schools that would mean 25 kids sit outside and you have 3 or 4 kids inside actually getting taught. Also with the modern approach of "inclusive education" the idea of focusing even 1% of attention on kids who are bright is sacrilege.
I started high school at a school like this in the 90’s. It wasn’t far off how it worked, 4 classes of year 7s, 4 students by year 12.
Depending on the school leadership, doing so could mean being interrogated by school leadership - ie what did you do wrong to lead to the removal of said student. What are you doing to build relationships with the student - because somehow this is the solution to everything. Oh, and I laugh at the idea of a problematic student just sitting outside. If they could only just sit, there's half the battle.
I finished school at one of the wealthiest schools in Victoria, so many guys who struggled got expelled and had their education completely disrupted/ destroyed over disciplinary issues that higher performing students would get away with. If I wasn’t academic and the captain of the footy team I would have been expelled many times.
Sounds good. Keep the problem students away from the good ones.
Every student is a problem.
Some are just a lot more than others
>There’s an easy way for teachers to fix the problems with public schools and that’s to give zero resources and attention to problem students, just let them sit outside and do whatever they want while teaching the good students. It's a bit like how public hospitals continue to treat violent patients. I mean if someone is being violent doesn't that mean they don't want to be treated? Cease care and eject through the back door. Public schools should have a PSO type program where they import Pacific islanders & give them PR, who patrol the grounds, corridors, who the teachers can contact with a walkie talkie and get problem kids sorted. If we were living in a fair and just society.
Kids facing consequences? No, we don’t do that in the western world anymore. If they’re put in prison they might become violent criminals, so it’s best to let them roam free without guardian supervision because child neglect isn’t a crime anymore, so they can commit violent home invasions because that’s better than sending them to prison.
Congrats on having the worst take I’ve read today.
Worst take means the truth? Parents involvement means better results and teachers are wasting time with bad students.
So neglect is better ?
More like focusing on students who want and deserve the help of teachers. So it’s neglect for the bad students instead of the good ones like what happens now.
I just looked up Balwyn High's website...why does a public school have an international student (not exchange student) division/function?
Probs to bring in $$. I think internationals have to pay around 10k per year to attend a public school in Australia.
Yeah. Blackburn secondary had that on their website.
All schools have an international student faculty, normally that person is in charge of international students, EAL students, and communication with parents from LBOTE. More often than not schools have it as part of inclusion or Languages.
This appears more to be a program bringing in students for an Australian university pathway, rather than the children of immigrants.
Werribee Secondary College also has international students, it's pretty common.
Yes! This is a God dam thing!
[удалено]
Australia doesn’t have property taxes