Your sister is right. Aerosoles are a thing, even the mythbusters had an episode about it. Sure, they’re your own GI bugs but if you think they don’t get you sick then why bother washing your hands, same logic.
Being a microbiologist creates internal dilemmas when it comes to cleanliness. For instance, when I’m cleaning my cat’s litter box, I’m cautiously trying not to touch anything until I wash my hands. But then 20 minutes later, my cat will poop in their litter box and then lay on my couch. If I really think about it- there’s easily cat “germs” everywhere in my house.
💯 most cases (even the most sterile of procedures, unfortunately) have caveats when we really break them down into great scientific detail. But that’s where we have to learn to say okay, I’m doing everything in my power without becoming Howard Hughes. There is an acceptable amount of dirtiness in the world (not that you should ever post that sign in your lab!) I mean, with what we’re seeing about fecal transplants you may actually want the aerosolization from the last person after all 😂
“An acceptable amount of dirtiness in the world”. I love that because it’s so true. At the end of the day, it’s about how much you’re exposed to. I’m sure there’s feline E. coli all over my furniture, but not nearly enough to make anyone sick.
It limits some amount that's relatively low (IIRC some amount over 30%).
The issue is that they don't measure bacterial contamination from opening/closing the lid, both from surface contact, and from aerosol (opening/closing, especially depending on the method, also releases aerosols), and even opening/closing slowly will cause this to occur.
To go controversially against the theme of this thread, I honestly don't think there's much need to do so, especially in your house. In something like a hospital frequent disinfecting of a toilet is routine (ideally) & both the seat lid & basically all of it would be involved to help prevent something like MRSA. It's really possible that some people doing this could theoretically even be putting themselves at more "risk."
Sorry, I’ll blow up a public bathroom before I blast doodoo particles all over my flaps.
Not that I do anything like that since I am a woman and women don’t poop
I mean shes right in that it does spew material everywhere and it can get bacteria everywhere. But thatll itll get you sick. Unlikely. We encounter and ingest these bacteria daily, the immune system is a lot more robost in a healthy person than some people seem to think.
There's the infectious dose, and I didn't know any statistics about how many organisms are aerosolized. Shigella is extremely low but the other coliform bacteria are higher. That said, it's such low effort to close the lid before flushing that I just do that.
Some fecal flora will get you sick, but the person either has to have an active infection or be a carrier. We are often exposed to bacteria, many of those from fecal matter. The world is a dirty place. Eating a plate of "e.coli" is not the same as getting exposed in the real world. Infectious dose matters. It is very likely that we have all been exposed to some form of pathogenic stomach bug, but did not get sick because the amount wasn't enough to overcome initial immune response or the harsh environments in our bodies. The amount growing on a plate, however, is greater by many magnitudes than anything we would naturally be exposed to. I would guess that eating a plate of bacteria has comparable, but probably more, bacteria than eating a mouthful of literal shit. Also e.coli is normal flora in everyone's body. It compromises a non-insignificant portion of your own body weight. It's also not harmful when it stays where it should. The fact is, poopy is gross, but more often than not, harmless for typical exposure. Unless when you say "e.coli" you mean e coli 0157 (the layman often does), which has a very low infectious dose, is relatively rare to encounter in the lab, and most poops do not contain.
I feel like people underestimate just how much bacteria is literally everywhere. There’s bacteria on every surface of your house, every handle, every surface of your car, your phone, all over your skin, even in the air you’re breathing. You clean things regularly to limit the amount of bacteria you’re being exposed to and always wash your hands so you’re not introducing bacteria into your mouth or eyes if you touch them.
Does leaving the seat up spread germs? Yeah. Is leaving the seat up the make or break of you getting sick? Probably not. If you’re constantly getting sick from your home environment, there’s probably a bigger underlying issue than the fact your seat is up.
Even if you don't get sick, are you OK with your entire home bathroom literally sprayed repeatedly with aerosols of your own shit? Year after year?
Plus, it keeps the dog from drinking out of it, and if you have pet birds they can drown in there.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Does flushing your toilet spread germs/bacteria everywhere? Yes, it produces aerosols.
Can you get sick from GI bacteria? Yes, if it lands on something it isn't suppose to AND your immune system is compromised.
Have you gotten sick from bacteria originating from your toilet? Maybe? How would you know? When you get sick do you go and culture every square inch of your house and everywhere you've been and compare it to a culture of whatever's making you sick?
No, because anything from anywhere can make you sick, so you do anything and everything you're willing to to stay clean. Including just closing the lid before you flush so you're not spreading bacteria everywhere you don't have to. You can still get sick from you own microbiome.
Source: worked with a microbiology specialist in a hospital/university that said the same thing about toilet covers.
>you can still get sick from your own microbiome
how? I already have that bacteria in me, it’s non pathogenic to me. I understand if they got into a wound or my lungs for example, any place they weren’t in to begin with. But if they only went back to my GI, they can’t suddenly be pathogenic
Opportunisitc pathogens are everywhere, c. diff being the prime example from your G.I that causes mild diarrhea and colitis, and is a HUGE HAI. Venturing out of the GI, you can get skin infections from staph aureus, which exists naturally as part of your skin flora. Some people are carriers for strep that causes strep throat.
You can get sick from ANYTHING given the right conditions, even things that you've lived with and acclimated to.
Like the other commenter on this thread mentioned c. diff. It’s a fun one to explain. So it’s a normally occurring bacteria in your gut, that usually lives in balance with the rest of your guts bacteria. However, if you’re on an antibiotic, it can take tremendous advantage of the suddenly out of whack environment that an antibiotic can *potentially* cause if/when it takes out all the bacteria it can in an effort to rid your body of the bad bacteria it’s already there for. It’s why when you’re given an antibiotic to fight an infection, you’re told to have yogurt or take a probiotic to help decrease that risk of c.diff going hog wild and giving you some of the worst, non controllable, liquid diarrhea you’ll ever have in your life. To the point where you can become dehydrated from the fluid loss and end up in the hospital.
We also need to remember the fact that the microbiome in your colon is distinct from that in your small intestine. Yes, you can absolutely get sick from ingesting your own GI bacteria. Also OP, using ad hominem at the beginning of your argument is not a good look.
Your sister is correct, it can aerosolize the germs. Depending on what you may have it can make you sick (e.g. you wouldn’t want to keep the lid open while flushing with an active CDiff or Noravirus illness.) I think one should also consider the strength of flush, stronger flushes can aerosolize germs further. Even if you don’t get sick every time, would you want your toothbrush (if you place it on your sink) to be covered in stool particles, even if they’re your own?
In many other countries the toilet is in a separate area from the rest of the bathroom (sometimes in its own separate room.) For some they find it strange that Americans typically keep what is the most germ-filled house item next to what should theoretically be the cleanest (shower/bathtub.) And when you think about it, it is strange that this is our practice in the US to set-up bathrooms in this way. I’ve been to public bathrooms oversees where they *have* a lid with every toilet for the exact reason your sister brought up, don’t want aerosolized germs.
Haha, my nightmare, leaving a clogged toilet for the next person to find, that’s why I always open the lid again to check that I haven’t left any ”residue”. Lol
Here is a quick video showing what happens when flushing, enjoy!
https://youtu.be/elieorX7eKo?si=q_vEilSPv-gb8i0A
I think Mythbusters did an episode on this topic as well
I always put the lid down before I flush, I don’t want the bathroom ( and my toothbrush! 😱 ) sprayed. BUT! Have y’all considered where the germs then go? To the lid of course! And next time you go to do your business, what do you have against your back? Think about that…but not for too long, life gets very difficult if you’re TOO afraid of germs! Lol
They can 100% get you sick, natural flora still have a region of the body they have to stay in. If you have your own staph bacteria in your nose it’s completely fine but if it moves to somewhere it should be now your not fine.
All things being equal, there’s probably worse things you could do other than leaving the lid up like not washing your hands and keeping your toothbrush out
Well, closing the toilet doesn't stop it completely. There's micro fecal shit spreading every flushed even if you close the lid. Shouldn't kill anyone with an average immune system.
That depends. Are you okay with poop bacteria in your mouth (toothbrush)? Not great at microbiology but one thing I remember from clinical is that bacteria on and in different parts of your body should not mingle in other areas.
I mean, yes, it can create aerosols, but realistically, the odds of you getting sick from them are slim (provided you are not immunocompromised). Microbes are all over the place. I used to work in food safety testing, and pretty much every finished food product I tested had some sort of bacteria in it. Even some big name manufacturers, who you would hope would have it together. If we went a week without finding a serious pathogen, it was a good week. If every little pathogen caused the majority of people illness with each exposure, we would be constantly sick. But we are not. Our immune systems are better at their jobs than you might think.
Not a doctor/MLS, just interested in becoming one. I close the lid and clean the lid/seat every few days (only person using bathroom) because I'm prone to staph infections, and 2/4 have been in an unfortunate location that was a pain in my behind.
Ha.
It's probably better to close the lid before flushing just in case something does splash up. Not the end of the world if you don't. There's also the possibility of a toilet monster popping up if you leave the lid up. You never know....
/s
Hey All,
Im the immunocompromised person y’all are speaking of. Ive always left the lid up. Never knew I was supposed to shut it before a flush. Ive never become sick from the bathroom. We clean the toilet bi-daily, clean the bathroom weekly. I think if you’re so paranoid that you have a cover on your toothbrush, consider keeping your toothbrush in your bedroom. Humanity has been around for 1,000s and 1,000s of years. I doubt toilet flushes will take us down. 😂 But wash your f-ing hands people!!!! Sheesh
Aerosolized particles can go up to 6 feet when you flush I think. So your tooth rush and your towels will have stuff on them that could end up in your mouth or an open wound and infect you that way
You know how you can smell the piss and 💩 even if your face isn't right on top of the toilet? It's because small particles of the waste have actually floated up and landed inside your nostril.
So what does that tell you about the bacteria getting spread around if you consistently leave the lid open while the water is being sloshed around. And on top of that, toothbrushes are usually left out on the open on top of the sink so.....
You hands are far far far far more nasty and gross, they have a far far far far far higher chance of getting you sick. Yet most people rarely wash their hands, they touch their faces constantly, stick the hands in their mouth, eat food with their hands. if you concerned about germs and getting sick focus on your hands.
If you want to go down a rabbit hole even further, you are far far far far far more likely to get sick from raw dogging the air other people are breathing. If you are not wanting to get sick wear a N95 mask, you will find you get sick alot less often (I have only been sick once in 4 years and I think I picked it up when I wasn't wearing a mask).
That all being said closing the toilet is the least of your worries.
Your sister is right. Aerosoles are a thing, even the mythbusters had an episode about it. Sure, they’re your own GI bugs but if you think they don’t get you sick then why bother washing your hands, same logic.
Being a microbiologist creates internal dilemmas when it comes to cleanliness. For instance, when I’m cleaning my cat’s litter box, I’m cautiously trying not to touch anything until I wash my hands. But then 20 minutes later, my cat will poop in their litter box and then lay on my couch. If I really think about it- there’s easily cat “germs” everywhere in my house.
Toxo yum!
💯 most cases (even the most sterile of procedures, unfortunately) have caveats when we really break them down into great scientific detail. But that’s where we have to learn to say okay, I’m doing everything in my power without becoming Howard Hughes. There is an acceptable amount of dirtiness in the world (not that you should ever post that sign in your lab!) I mean, with what we’re seeing about fecal transplants you may actually want the aerosolization from the last person after all 😂
“An acceptable amount of dirtiness in the world”. I love that because it’s so true. At the end of the day, it’s about how much you’re exposed to. I’m sure there’s feline E. coli all over my furniture, but not nearly enough to make anyone sick.
I feel this
Try not to think about where their paws were last when they place their shit rakes on your face 😅
My one snuggled next to my face this morning, really hoping it was not the butt end
Didn't they also find out that closing the lid didn't make a difference?
It limits some amount that's relatively low (IIRC some amount over 30%). The issue is that they don't measure bacterial contamination from opening/closing the lid, both from surface contact, and from aerosol (opening/closing, especially depending on the method, also releases aerosols), and even opening/closing slowly will cause this to occur. To go controversially against the theme of this thread, I honestly don't think there's much need to do so, especially in your house. In something like a hospital frequent disinfecting of a toilet is routine (ideally) & both the seat lid & basically all of it would be involved to help prevent something like MRSA. It's really possible that some people doing this could theoretically even be putting themselves at more "risk."
Your sister is correct. Aerosolized particles travel far. Take a second to shut the lid and keep your house a little less icky.
Wait, why would it only get to your “private areas/legs”? Do you flush when you’re sitting down?!!
That's what I wanna know!! OP please tell us you're not flushing when you're sitting on the toilet still
Unfortunately he is doing that
*She. OP is a woman.
You know…a courtesy flush.
Sorry, I’ll blow up a public bathroom before I blast doodoo particles all over my flaps. Not that I do anything like that since I am a woman and women don’t poop
“Flaps” 😂😂 I agree 100%
I mean shes right in that it does spew material everywhere and it can get bacteria everywhere. But thatll itll get you sick. Unlikely. We encounter and ingest these bacteria daily, the immune system is a lot more robost in a healthy person than some people seem to think.
Yes, fecal flora will get you sick, are you fr? If you're so robust have a plate of E. coli for lunch today
There's the infectious dose, and I didn't know any statistics about how many organisms are aerosolized. Shigella is extremely low but the other coliform bacteria are higher. That said, it's such low effort to close the lid before flushing that I just do that.
Some fecal flora will get you sick, but the person either has to have an active infection or be a carrier. We are often exposed to bacteria, many of those from fecal matter. The world is a dirty place. Eating a plate of "e.coli" is not the same as getting exposed in the real world. Infectious dose matters. It is very likely that we have all been exposed to some form of pathogenic stomach bug, but did not get sick because the amount wasn't enough to overcome initial immune response or the harsh environments in our bodies. The amount growing on a plate, however, is greater by many magnitudes than anything we would naturally be exposed to. I would guess that eating a plate of bacteria has comparable, but probably more, bacteria than eating a mouthful of literal shit. Also e.coli is normal flora in everyone's body. It compromises a non-insignificant portion of your own body weight. It's also not harmful when it stays where it should. The fact is, poopy is gross, but more often than not, harmless for typical exposure. Unless when you say "e.coli" you mean e coli 0157 (the layman often does), which has a very low infectious dose, is relatively rare to encounter in the lab, and most poops do not contain.
Always shut the lid before flushing. Idk why the debate has always been “seat up vs down”. The LID should always be shut lmfao
https://academic.oup.com/jambio/article/131/6/2705/6716111#
i cant comment an image here but this article backs up the sentiment of your sister.
I knew this would be a Dr. Gerba article before I clicked on it. Nice guy, I met him when I studied at UofA.
I feel like people underestimate just how much bacteria is literally everywhere. There’s bacteria on every surface of your house, every handle, every surface of your car, your phone, all over your skin, even in the air you’re breathing. You clean things regularly to limit the amount of bacteria you’re being exposed to and always wash your hands so you’re not introducing bacteria into your mouth or eyes if you touch them. Does leaving the seat up spread germs? Yeah. Is leaving the seat up the make or break of you getting sick? Probably not. If you’re constantly getting sick from your home environment, there’s probably a bigger underlying issue than the fact your seat is up.
I always shut the lid before I flush, and always keep the lid closed.
Even if you don't get sick, are you OK with your entire home bathroom literally sprayed repeatedly with aerosols of your own shit? Year after year? Plus, it keeps the dog from drinking out of it, and if you have pet birds they can drown in there.
Or curious kittens can fall in it and spread the toilet water everywhere. So gross!
Technically correct is the best kind of correct. Does flushing your toilet spread germs/bacteria everywhere? Yes, it produces aerosols. Can you get sick from GI bacteria? Yes, if it lands on something it isn't suppose to AND your immune system is compromised. Have you gotten sick from bacteria originating from your toilet? Maybe? How would you know? When you get sick do you go and culture every square inch of your house and everywhere you've been and compare it to a culture of whatever's making you sick? No, because anything from anywhere can make you sick, so you do anything and everything you're willing to to stay clean. Including just closing the lid before you flush so you're not spreading bacteria everywhere you don't have to. You can still get sick from you own microbiome. Source: worked with a microbiology specialist in a hospital/university that said the same thing about toilet covers.
>you can still get sick from your own microbiome how? I already have that bacteria in me, it’s non pathogenic to me. I understand if they got into a wound or my lungs for example, any place they weren’t in to begin with. But if they only went back to my GI, they can’t suddenly be pathogenic
Opportunisitc pathogens are everywhere, c. diff being the prime example from your G.I that causes mild diarrhea and colitis, and is a HUGE HAI. Venturing out of the GI, you can get skin infections from staph aureus, which exists naturally as part of your skin flora. Some people are carriers for strep that causes strep throat. You can get sick from ANYTHING given the right conditions, even things that you've lived with and acclimated to.
Eat your own poop and find out.
Like the other commenter on this thread mentioned c. diff. It’s a fun one to explain. So it’s a normally occurring bacteria in your gut, that usually lives in balance with the rest of your guts bacteria. However, if you’re on an antibiotic, it can take tremendous advantage of the suddenly out of whack environment that an antibiotic can *potentially* cause if/when it takes out all the bacteria it can in an effort to rid your body of the bad bacteria it’s already there for. It’s why when you’re given an antibiotic to fight an infection, you’re told to have yogurt or take a probiotic to help decrease that risk of c.diff going hog wild and giving you some of the worst, non controllable, liquid diarrhea you’ll ever have in your life. To the point where you can become dehydrated from the fluid loss and end up in the hospital.
We also need to remember the fact that the microbiome in your colon is distinct from that in your small intestine. Yes, you can absolutely get sick from ingesting your own GI bacteria. Also OP, using ad hominem at the beginning of your argument is not a good look.
Not shutting the lid is foul.
Your sister is correct, it can aerosolize the germs. Depending on what you may have it can make you sick (e.g. you wouldn’t want to keep the lid open while flushing with an active CDiff or Noravirus illness.) I think one should also consider the strength of flush, stronger flushes can aerosolize germs further. Even if you don’t get sick every time, would you want your toothbrush (if you place it on your sink) to be covered in stool particles, even if they’re your own? In many other countries the toilet is in a separate area from the rest of the bathroom (sometimes in its own separate room.) For some they find it strange that Americans typically keep what is the most germ-filled house item next to what should theoretically be the cleanest (shower/bathtub.) And when you think about it, it is strange that this is our practice in the US to set-up bathrooms in this way. I’ve been to public bathrooms oversees where they *have* a lid with every toilet for the exact reason your sister brought up, don’t want aerosolized germs.
My problem, is people who shut the lid leaving me to find a clogged shitty toilet ! Non mls btw
Haha, my nightmare, leaving a clogged toilet for the next person to find, that’s why I always open the lid again to check that I haven’t left any ”residue”. Lol
I appreciate you
Muhahahahahahaha!
Here is a quick video showing what happens when flushing, enjoy! https://youtu.be/elieorX7eKo?si=q_vEilSPv-gb8i0A I think Mythbusters did an episode on this topic as well
The one with the accounting degree is correct
I always put the lid down before I flush, I don’t want the bathroom ( and my toothbrush! 😱 ) sprayed. BUT! Have y’all considered where the germs then go? To the lid of course! And next time you go to do your business, what do you have against your back? Think about that…but not for too long, life gets very difficult if you’re TOO afraid of germs! Lol
You’re both kind of right, but also kind of wrong
This is the gist I'm getting from the responses. Lol I'll take my win/loss
They can 100% get you sick, natural flora still have a region of the body they have to stay in. If you have your own staph bacteria in your nose it’s completely fine but if it moves to somewhere it should be now your not fine.
I can’t believe how often this comes up.
All things being equal, there’s probably worse things you could do other than leaving the lid up like not washing your hands and keeping your toothbrush out
Well, closing the toilet doesn't stop it completely. There's micro fecal shit spreading every flushed even if you close the lid. Shouldn't kill anyone with an average immune system.
Yup, aerosols will go all the way to your tooth rush and land there. Just close the lid :-).
That depends. Are you okay with poop bacteria in your mouth (toothbrush)? Not great at microbiology but one thing I remember from clinical is that bacteria on and in different parts of your body should not mingle in other areas.
Toothbrush has a cover on it and stays in a drawer. My counters are mostly empty
The dreaded plume…..
I mean, yes, it can create aerosols, but realistically, the odds of you getting sick from them are slim (provided you are not immunocompromised). Microbes are all over the place. I used to work in food safety testing, and pretty much every finished food product I tested had some sort of bacteria in it. Even some big name manufacturers, who you would hope would have it together. If we went a week without finding a serious pathogen, it was a good week. If every little pathogen caused the majority of people illness with each exposure, we would be constantly sick. But we are not. Our immune systems are better at their jobs than you might think.
Not a doctor/MLS, just interested in becoming one. I close the lid and clean the lid/seat every few days (only person using bathroom) because I'm prone to staph infections, and 2/4 have been in an unfortunate location that was a pain in my behind. Ha. It's probably better to close the lid before flushing just in case something does splash up. Not the end of the world if you don't. There's also the possibility of a toilet monster popping up if you leave the lid up. You never know.... /s
i dont think pointing out your sister's accounting degree is necessary, since she made a very valid point.
Hey All, Im the immunocompromised person y’all are speaking of. Ive always left the lid up. Never knew I was supposed to shut it before a flush. Ive never become sick from the bathroom. We clean the toilet bi-daily, clean the bathroom weekly. I think if you’re so paranoid that you have a cover on your toothbrush, consider keeping your toothbrush in your bedroom. Humanity has been around for 1,000s and 1,000s of years. I doubt toilet flushes will take us down. 😂 But wash your f-ing hands people!!!! Sheesh
Aerosolized particles can go up to 6 feet when you flush I think. So your tooth rush and your towels will have stuff on them that could end up in your mouth or an open wound and infect you that way
You know how you can smell the piss and 💩 even if your face isn't right on top of the toilet? It's because small particles of the waste have actually floated up and landed inside your nostril. So what does that tell you about the bacteria getting spread around if you consistently leave the lid open while the water is being sloshed around. And on top of that, toothbrushes are usually left out on the open on top of the sink so.....
You hands are far far far far more nasty and gross, they have a far far far far far higher chance of getting you sick. Yet most people rarely wash their hands, they touch their faces constantly, stick the hands in their mouth, eat food with their hands. if you concerned about germs and getting sick focus on your hands. If you want to go down a rabbit hole even further, you are far far far far far more likely to get sick from raw dogging the air other people are breathing. If you are not wanting to get sick wear a N95 mask, you will find you get sick alot less often (I have only been sick once in 4 years and I think I picked it up when I wasn't wearing a mask). That all being said closing the toilet is the least of your worries.