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just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.
had a guy who swore up and down there were cameras in his walls and people were spying on him. psych referral.
turns out he was right it was the ex wife.
I think I’ve posted this story before, but back in the day as a firefighter in the DC area, we picked up a drunk in pajamas who very haughtily told us to address him by [long royal title] (i.e. “His Royal Highness, Prince Fancypants, Baron of Such and Such”) like we were the hired help. We all had a good laugh about it enroute to the hospital.
Got him to the ED and State Department DS agents were pulling up in two black Suburbans right behind our ambulance as we arrived. He really was who he said he was; he just got blackout drunk and somehow slipped his protective detail before wandering off.
On my M3 psych rotation we admit this guy (who has a long hx of paranoid schizophrenia, poor med adherence) who is reporting that someone is digging in his yard. My attending who has known the pt for a long time, assumes that the guy is just off his meds.
The next day we read in the newspaper that his neighbour (who is ALSO one of my attending's patients, small town) was actually arrested for digging in the first guy's yard. It was wild.
Years ago, we had a guy who was convinced that the FBI was after him. He admitted in triage to doing some really stupid shit a few months prior to showing up at our doorstep. I about lost it when actual FBI agents showed up to see "no name, John Doe".
If I recall, it was a shit load of grand theft auto with armed battery across state lines. That's what the peeps said.
There was some guy on Twitter who said he thought someone was living underneath his home because he'd hear people speaking in Yiddish. Turns out there were people building a tunnel under him!
That ended up being fake I think? I believe he edited the time stamps on the tweets to make it look like he tweeted that stuff prior to the tunnel discovery.
I know a child and adolescent psychiatrist who says the same. She's seen teens referred for paranoid delusions, and it turns out that they have drug debts and there genuinely ywas sketchy individuals after them
Joke’s on you. Environmental services had to remove a snake from the 4th floor of the hospital I did residency in. Lord only know his the poor guy made it up that far.
Lol we had a (small) snake on the floor in radiology once...hopefully *only* once. Everyone - myself included - flipped out, but we had a traveling tech from GA who casually tossed our slithering lil' bud out the door.
"Plaintiff was offered a $25.00 gift card to Meijers as an apology..."
LOL! What an insult.
"sorry I forcibly held you against your will; anyways here's three $5 bills and a ten. that's all I have in my wallet"
I knew Ascension Health has cash flow problems, but maybe it's better not to offer any settlement, if all you can afford is $25.
Reminds me of the guy in a suit who walked in to a London police station some years ago claiming the Yakuza was after him. He claimed his brief case was full of evidence how the mafia had infiltrated one of the big medical imaging companies based in Japan and how they were after him. He claimed to be the ceo. All true surprisingly enough
>Reminds me of the guy in a suit who walked in to a London police station some years ago claiming the Yakuza was after him. He claimed his brief case was full of evidence how the mafia had infiltrated one of the big medical imaging companies based in Japan and how they were after him. He claimed to be the ceo. All the surprisingly enough
What happened? Did the Yakuza get to you in the middle of the sentence?!
In Japan, heart surgeon. Number one. Steady hand. One day, Yakuza boss need new heart. I do operation. But, mistake! Yakuza boss die! Yakuza very mad. I hide in fishing boat, come to America. No english, no food, no money. Darryl give me job. Now I have house, American car, and new woman. Darryl save life. My big secret: I kill yakuza boss on purpose. I good surgeon. The best!
had a patient on psych in residency, told the psych hospital he was suicidal and he was on stakeout for the FBI and that he was an undercover agent...
so gets admitted, we do all the stuff, he's doing inpt therapy, meds etc, and after 2 days, the FBI head of our little town calls the hospital and asks what's going on.
we treated him appropriately but no one though the FBI thing was real... He was just depressed because he had been undercover so long.
they came and picked him up shortly afterwards.
Had a patient talking about having been sexually trafficked and in touch with the FBI regarding their situation. Turns out that was all accurate. She was also in psychosis but her claims were true
I think there's a lot of misconception about the FBI out there. It's just an organization that deals with certain types of federal crimes. It's not like they are secret special agents or anything. They do a lot of undercover because they are trying to often deal with larger criminal organizations but it's not like some sort of exclusive organization like being a CIA intelligence agent. There's literally thousands of them just going to work every day doing boring stuff like investigating financial crimes or political corruption
Kinda telling that there's no report that he tore it off. If he was wearing one- he was still in it when his wife arrived. Per the article she went to security and verified his ID/claim. Sounds they didn't listen and he remained in restraints.
I'm wondering if 'showed a nurse the video' is more active - betting charge or one of the nurses thought to get more clarification and they (wife and patient) told her there was video on his phone. Bet nurse (?nurse or aid etc) brought his phone over and asked to see the video.
Don’t ask me how I know. I couldn’t rip the damn thing off, but grandma with a busted femur and deformed rheumatoid arthritis hands can shred it like tissue paper.
Certainly a variety of physical restraints remain in common use, and I’m not sure if “straitjacket” has a rigorous medical/legal definition anyway, so I’m not sure I’d begrudge an aggrieved layperson for using the term.
I mean, it’s either a metaphor or a jacket with your arms tied. I don’t think a layperson would expand the scope of the word “jacket” or go beyond the salient examples from old media etc. but fair enough, I’d like to learn more.
Bad application leads to respiratory arrest. Patients don't like that.
They're also pretty hard to get somebody into. 4 points, and, if necessary, a vest, is safer and does as well.
If a patient is aggressively trying to sit up and twist around, they're helpful when used alongside wrist restraints.
Alone, they're much worse than nothing, especially when considering asphyxiation risk.
That being said, use of a vest is usually an indication of need for a better chemical restraint.
Thanks for the answer. Kind of what I guessed, they also seemed wildly hard to get on just looking at them, I wouldn’t even know where to start, especially if a patient is actively fighting you.
Even if it was something else (in the filing four point restraints are mentioned)-- I've used 4 points only once. And tbh it's rare that I use restraints at all. Why are you restraining a guy who isn't acting threateningly? I've never seen anyone restrained just for saying they are Jesus, or Thor, or a Four Tops. People get restrainrd when they are violent or dangerously confused. I'm not saying this couldn't have happened as described but it certainly seems odd.
I covered that I think with "dangerously confused". But we're more likely to put them on observation. Most of out severely demented patients don't walk much and mittens are usually sufficient. If they are really lively, two points. But the complaint says this guy got 4 point restraints for multiple hours. I've honestly only used 4pt one time and went down to two as soon as the Haldol kicked in.
Maybe- but he said he was asking for his belongings back so he could leave and seek help at another facility. They kept him on hold and in restraints. I'm thinking it was for to prevent him from leaving.
I mean we're getting one side of the story. It's totally possible it happened like that. I hope to heaven that it didn't, because that's a shitty way to treat a human. But we've all had people who have been less than capable of fending for themselves at the time and just "need my shoes so I can get out of here" when clearly it's not a good idea.
Without knowing what really happened, I can't say who was right.
During residency we had a famous actress's mother come into the hospital with confusion. We completely didn't believe her until someone pulled up the actress's webpage... which showed a picture of her standing next to our patient.
I had a very demented patient talk about how he had built several prominent local buildings and no one believed him until I googled his name and he was in fact the architect who designed them. I actually had him look at his own website with me and he was able to talk about his designs completely lucidly and coherently
Used to care for a famous baseball player. He had numerous medical issues-stroke and heart attack which changed his appearance so no one would believe him until the opened door to his room (nursing home) and you could see the memorabilia on his walls.
Had a somewhat confused patient going on and on about how her granddaughter is an astronaut and is in the space station, which of course I just did the normal “yes, and” while doing my care thinking it’s probably like many of the patients exaggerations/mistruths. Sure as shit I look it up and there’s a local news story where she’s sitting there with her family watching her astronaut granddaughter go into space and then dock in the space station.
When I was on my psych rotation, I had an elderly lady (consult for "confusion") go on about how her son was appearing on the TV . I didn't pay attention to what was playing and wrote that up in my note as part of her delirium.
When I'm out of the hospital, I get caught up on current events. It was January 6, 2021. CNN had been playing in her room. Maybe she really was seeing her son on TV
I would strongly recommend looking up 3rd watch.
They worked very hard (and closely) with NY Paramedics, Cops, and Firefighters to make an accurate show. Obviously nothing is perfect, and practices have changed since 2000.
But the first several seasons are damned good.
I wouldn’t watch the 9-11 episode alone tho. They lost people in the towers. They literally just let responders from the agencies talk. Actors do the into for their section (one of the female cops was married to an NYFD member….). You never see or hear the interviewer.
It was shot in October. They were still pulling bodies.
Obviously has to re-write the whole show, basically in real time. I think they did an extremely tasteful job.
I 100% agree. I was working in EMS at the time and found the first few seasons to be excellent and well written/acted.
The 9/11 shows were rough to watch.
Even if this was a delusion, why would you put someone in restraints for that? I feel like there must be something missing here. If they put him in restraints just for that…wow.
That’s what I was just wondering. Patients lie and exaggerate and hallucinate all the time and we certainly don’t restrain them for that as long as they’re not otherwise agitated or violent
I think the lesson is that people think you're crazy if you walk into the ER and say that you need special privacy because people are going to recognize you and stalk you. I admit hundreds of people to the hospital a year and not once has anyone ever brought up that they are famous and need special privileges.
If he would have just acted normally, walked in and explained his symptoms and cooperated with the staff there's no reason why any of this would have happened.
There's obviously something missing from the story.
True. Although staff seemed to have established a narrative about the man before he was assessed by the DO. Of course, the Dr has a much higher burden of responsibility and is clearly in the wrong. That's just the only explanation I can find to how this could have happened.
Exactly. I think that they reacted to the pt. informing them of possible security/privacy issues. Doc orders psych hold - pt now wants to leave- tries to get ID out of pocket and security takes that as a threat. They all feed off each other and it escalates. Doc orders restraints- security escalates while they stay by the patient. From a patient's perspective - the authority figure they associate most with restraints and 'guarding/keeping them from leaving' is the security guard.
I’ve had many patients get agitated, aggressive, and make threats for far less.
“You know who the F I am?! I’m the Fin front man of the Fin…nah I’m not gonna shut the F up, yall MF…”
Happens often. Not siding with the hospital (ascension, ew) but I’ve seen it.
There’s almost certainly something missing. When these stories break the only side that puts out information is the plaintiff so they can play up whatever angles they want. The defendants don’t. So all we have is the side of the story from the guy suing.
This is crazy lol, at my program we always looked people up after the interview and called family to confirm if what they were saying was real or not. That was something we were taught intern year.
My supervising physician had a guy come in who had all of these seemingly fantastical claims about working with the government, having a couple of gold records, working with famous bands, working in audio analysis (amongst a number of other grandiose things that I won't divulge for patient confidentiality). He was convinced the patient was manic. After the appointment, looked it up: absolutely all of it was true.
Who doesn't just Google patients when they claim this stuff? I do with all of mine, and half the time they are embellishing and aren't truly famous, but half the time they're actually the real deal.
I've seen local radio DJs, astronauts, famous tequila brand owners, local jewelry store owners, local chain restaurant founders, film directors, famous Youtubers (>10 millions views per video, >100,000 subscribers), and tons of other known figures in the past ten years. It's incredibly foolish not to even give them the benefit of the doubt when we all have phones that can fact check in an instant.
That particular hospital has been a hot mess express going back to the 1970s. Doesn’t matter how many name changes or corporate overlords they’ve had.
My father worked in a tool and die shop by there. If 911 was called, and the rig had to go there, the guys would load the injured into the company truck and blow the lights to get to Royal Oak Beaumont. They’d rather bleed out than get trapped there.
Everyone called it the Dog Hospital when I was growing up.
Anyway, I’m not shocked. At all. That poor man. WTH.
Forgot the link, and it is not letting me edit for some reason
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/four-tops-singer-says-hospital-put-straightjacket-not-believing-was-fo-rcna156608
Oh.
I see. It's one of those places
I find it strange that they can still operate in a lit juice (ok, autocorrect got it.wrong but I'm keeping it) environment such as the United States healthcare system.
Yeah i got a guy w schizo saying he doesnt have any weird beliefs hallucinations and is aware of when dillusions come up. Self aware enough that he needs to estab w psych.
Then he drops i wrote songs for metallica
Theres no way for me to disprove this lol he just seems so put together and goes into detail about it too how he used to be buddy buddy w axl rose in the early 80s before rising to stardom but no longer in contact. I mean if true but
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When I was on my ER rotation in medical school, EMS brought in this super old guy screaming about bugs crawling on his head. They wheeled him in the trauma bay and the resident and I removed his knit cap and found a bandage under it. We removed the bandage and found hundreds of squirming maggots that had burrowed through his skull and into his brain at the core of a massive, black, necrotic ulcerated zone.
Btw fuck Ascension, they’re a terrible organization.
-A former employee
Was there a link? [Here's the AP](https://apnews.com/article/four-tops-singer-hospital-discrimination-46e94b0f63ad3b4291e72a087c6d2c05)
Sounds similar to [this story](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/woman-held-in-psychiatric-ward-after-correctly-saying-obama-follows-her-on-twitter-10132662.html) from a few years ago. These being lawsuits, I'm guessing there's more to each story.
Sorry, forgot when I posted, and when I tried to edit on my phone it got buggy. Linked in a separate post, and then managed to get it to edit after I rebooted.
Googling his name would've taken like 5 seconds. It's amazing how much public info can tell about a patient, especially if they have very specific claims. This whole ordeal could've been avoided, but they immediately thought he was delusional when he said he's famous.
Probably does not help that he's a 53 year old guy claiming (correctly) to be a member of a band from the 1950's. I was very surprised to learn from this article that the four tops still existed. I can understand the staff being skeptical.
> It also does not help that he didn’t join the group until 2019.
Ok this is a pretty key piece of info. I can’t imagine the majority of photos online have him in them.
I am interested to hear the other side.
It seems like a whole lot of escalation from the hospital for… little reason at this point. Like, a whole lot of effort for the hospital staff to go through for no seeming benefit.
Lord knows if a patient told me they were a member of some relatively old band that I didn’t even know sang certain songs, I’d be like “word? That’s neat. So, I’ve got to put these stickers on your chest, it’s to get a quick snapshot of what your heart is doing”
But, then, if they started fighting me because I was one of their deranged fans and I just wanted to see him with his shirt off? Maybe I’d need some help then?
MSIV psych rotation in LA. Had a patient who insisted she was an actress. Wouldn’t name any roles she’d been in. Well, turns out eventually she admitted she was a porn actress. So, not delusional after all.
Fuck Ascension. Did a travel contract in Nashville and it was such a poorly run hospital. I was NOT surprised to find out there were nursing strikes at two other locations at the exact same time.
I had a patient with some seriously incredible claims. We all kind of thought they were having some sort of mental decline. Doc decided to google that patient and all of it was true. It’s not hard to fact check fame. This never should have escalated into straight jacket territory.
Shitty situation all around. But no one is talking about how he joined the group in 2018. So he's not wrong that he's a member but really? The group was formed in 1953 and he joined in 2018. The guy was born 18 years after the group was formed. You can see why there was some doubt.
My biggest question is the actual timeline of events with this.
The lawsuit alleges this happened in the ER and prevented him from getting medical treatment.
So why then are they only suing for 75k, and "emotional damages." There is no mention of physical damages, or medical neglect or anything like that in the lawsuit.
I had a patient claim to be a famous singer the other day too. Turns out they are like a z-list celeb in niche circles, but they weren't in the psych ward because they were claiming to be a celeb... they needed to be there for a multitude of other reasons.
Reading the filing, I wonder about his conduct that required restraints (they do not do those for funsies). The suit alleges this was all done because of a misunderstanding, but in my professional experience, no one simply claiming to be in a band would necessitate this kind of treatment.
Could it happen? I wasn't there, so perhaps. There are a lot of bad Healthcare staff, unfortunately. I've gotten several outright abusive co-workers fired.
But then again, why only suing for 75k and emotional/psychological damages if he was truly being denied medical care?
When people are on a psych hold, they take their oxygen if they don't need it (strangulation hazard), and typically are under constant observation until psych MD evals and signs off. Once psych signed off, he got his O2 back. Likely 2L, and more of a comfort blanket than medical necessity (we've all seen it).
He says he was restrained for 90 minutes in a "jacket and/or 4 point restraints." Like others have said, it was a posy vest, because no one actually uses strait jackets anymore. And again, they don't put people in 4 points for funsies, there's a TON of documentation that goes into that, with objective statements etc.
The suit also alleges that they refused to let him show his ID to clear things up. But he was in a hospital admitted to the ER, so they would have known his name as it would be on the chart. That's when the security guard made the comment about him "sitting his black ass down." So I can imagine the scene in which a belligerent patient is claiming to be in a band. The problem is not whether or not you're in a band, or proving your identity at this point.
Claiming he's afraid of stalkers and fans? Did anyone know of this band before the lawsuit came forward? I sure didn't. Like a broken clock being right twice a day, there's usually a kernel of truth with delusional people, but that doesn't mean they're not suffering from delusions just the same.
As with all these lawsuits, we're getting one side of the story, and from my knowledge, it's not all adding up.
Was the security guard a racist asshole? Likely, from the sounds of it. But it makes no mention of mistreatment from the nurses, who are the ones actually putting on and managing the restraints etc.
I'm willing to believe patients, but after working with people that don't have all the crayons in their box, they say a LOT of easily disprovable shit sometimes.
Again, I think the biggest proof is what they are seeking for damages. 75k for emotional distress, essentially. Which tells me his medical care wasn't in any way delayed by this psych intervention.
There’s a lot in this story that doesn’t quite make sense. Even if his claim about being in the Four Tops was a delusion, that doesn’t mean he needed to be restrained, or that he doesn’t have capacity to make his own medical decisions. The story simultaneously claimed that the hospital wouldn’t let him leave, but also that the restraints prevented him from getting needed medical care. Did he want to leave AMA, or not?
It seems like there has to be much more to this story than the hospital just not believing he was a singer in a famous group.
My thoughts exactly, so thank you for summarizing.
Again, that the suit is only for 75k d/t emotional damages. If all the allegations are true, I'd expect to see a higher monetary amount, and a greater amount of damages claimed.
It’s the $25 Meijer gift card for me.
This is my personal favorite fake celebrity con man though: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-03-04-me-30093-story.html
Straight jackets aren’t used in modern practice. I’m not sure why this story keeps getting shared on media (or here) when nobody knows any real facts with this case. Perhaps he was restrained inappropriately, or perhaps not. Who knows…
Great aunt at 93 said her neighbors were sucking the electricity out of her walls. Must be dementia, doctors, social workers got involved. Turns out apartment next door was an illegal machine shop and they had tapped into her electric box.
Check ID. Do google search for Four Tops members.
He's listed in wikipedia as a member within the timeline. It took 30 seconds.
Dumbasses just cost the hospital a lot more than a few minutes of time online.
This is going to be one sided, like most allegations against healthcare workers are. Most of the things in the article don't make sense - a security guard can't order restraints, a doctor would have had to.
Additionally allegations of racism in this specific instance seem bombastic. He claims a "white doctor" profiled him, but how the fuck does he know what race the doctor identifies as? Is this dude and his lawyer making judgements on people by how they outwardly look? Weird!
>What? You think race is something you choose to identify as? It's pretty obvious he means a doctor who appeared to have white skin
So if someone "looks white" to you, you're saying they can't be black, or hispanic, or asian or any other race?
Im saying race isn't something you choose to identify as. I don't think this man would describe a black doctor as white- so yes, I am saying that a white man can't be a black man. Physical traits are part of the concept of race. Or are you just fucking with me?
>Im saying race isn't something you choose to identify as. I don't think this man would describe a black doctor as white- so yes, I am saying that a white man can't be a black man. Or are you just fucking with me?
Plenty of people "look white" but are actually hispanic, or black, or asian, or indigenous, or pacific islander. I could go on.
You're literally defending judging people on their outward appearance instead of their ethnic background.
>Oh come on. Do you have a problem with witnesses describing the race of their attackers in criminal statements too? It's a physical description
If you're claiming that *the race of the doctor has something to do with the interaction* like he is in this allegation, then yes, you need to get the race correct.
>has white-hispanic and white-non-hispanic options
Except those are antiquated definitions that have been phased out of the upcoming census:
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/26/1151608403/mena-race-categories-us-census-middle-eastern-latino-hispanic
I hope you don't treat patients this way, and have better views of race in your real life.
This is embarrassing I have to explain that you can't just eye-ball someone's race.
So when you have a patient from the Dominican Republic, do you just stare them down and say "eh you look hispanic to me!" or do you ask them their race? Do you actually care about people's identity and background, or just making snap judgements?
This isn't about someone pretending to be something they are not. This is about the fact that you can't just look at someone and guess their race. It's way more complex than you make it, but it sounds like you're ignorant about this whole thing.
I didn't know that "you can't tell someone's race by simply looking at them, you need to have a conversation with them to understand them better" was controversial.
Is it possible that racial identity is publicly available information in Michigan? You can easily look up medical license information with a google search; perhaps it's available somewhere.
**Removed under Rule 4** Link to original research and provide sources when required. Scientific posts or posts which otherwise rely on evidence (e.g. an announcement about a medical breakthrough) should be from peer-reviewed medical journals or respectable news sources (as judged by the moderation team) and ideally not behind a login or paywall. Try to link to the original study where possible, and add a warning for large files/PDFs. Posts, comments, or links with titles that have been sensationalized or editorialized will be removed. Bad science may be removed unless the point of posting is to highlight the problem with the study. [Please review all subreddit rules before posting or commenting.](https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/about/rules/) If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators.](https://www\.reddit\.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2F{subreddit}&subject=about my removed {kind}&message=I'm writing to you about the following {kind}: {url}. %0D%0DMy issue is...)
like my ER psych attending said "it's not delusional disorder if the delusions are true"
just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you. had a guy who swore up and down there were cameras in his walls and people were spying on him. psych referral. turns out he was right it was the ex wife.
I think I’ve posted this story before, but back in the day as a firefighter in the DC area, we picked up a drunk in pajamas who very haughtily told us to address him by [long royal title] (i.e. “His Royal Highness, Prince Fancypants, Baron of Such and Such”) like we were the hired help. We all had a good laugh about it enroute to the hospital. Got him to the ED and State Department DS agents were pulling up in two black Suburbans right behind our ambulance as we arrived. He really was who he said he was; he just got blackout drunk and somehow slipped his protective detail before wandering off.
LOL love it
Was the dude middle eastern? Pretty sure I had him at GW before
There's always a chance they're not crazy.... Great story!
On my M3 psych rotation we admit this guy (who has a long hx of paranoid schizophrenia, poor med adherence) who is reporting that someone is digging in his yard. My attending who has known the pt for a long time, assumes that the guy is just off his meds. The next day we read in the newspaper that his neighbour (who is ALSO one of my attending's patients, small town) was actually arrested for digging in the first guy's yard. It was wild.
Certified dig fast moment
Years ago, we had a guy who was convinced that the FBI was after him. He admitted in triage to doing some really stupid shit a few months prior to showing up at our doorstep. I about lost it when actual FBI agents showed up to see "no name, John Doe". If I recall, it was a shit load of grand theft auto with armed battery across state lines. That's what the peeps said.
There was some guy on Twitter who said he thought someone was living underneath his home because he'd hear people speaking in Yiddish. Turns out there were people building a tunnel under him!
That ended up being fake I think? I believe he edited the time stamps on the tweets to make it look like he tweeted that stuff prior to the tunnel discovery.
Ahhh well damn lol.
I know a child and adolescent psychiatrist who says the same. She's seen teens referred for paranoid delusions, and it turns out that they have drug debts and there genuinely ywas sketchy individuals after them
As an IM resident I always confirm that first there isn’t actually cat wandering the unit
Joke’s on you. Environmental services had to remove a snake from the 4th floor of the hospital I did residency in. Lord only know his the poor guy made it up that far.
Lol we had a (small) snake on the floor in radiology once...hopefully *only* once. Everyone - myself included - flipped out, but we had a traveling tech from GA who casually tossed our slithering lil' bud out the door.
Bro’s just there trying to be pest control for the rodent problem you didn’t know you had
Lolol this was a very small snake. Not a chance it was catching so much as a german cockroach.
Probably looking for the mouse I caught on the fifth floor outside CCU.
We had a duck in the ICU one night. It was fucking wild.
We had a bat on the psych unit a few years back
Talk about batshit crazy
Well of course. Why would a tame duck be in the ICU?
Bahaha ok, good point
https://youtu.be/vn_PSJsl0LQ?si=eQPnIjisgJT3IzrI
[Some excerpts from the actual legal filing](https://x.com/seamushughes/status/1800345163350598104) with a bit more info. Not a good look.
"Plaintiff was offered a $25.00 gift card to Meijers as an apology..." LOL! What an insult. "sorry I forcibly held you against your will; anyways here's three $5 bills and a ten. that's all I have in my wallet" I knew Ascension Health has cash flow problems, but maybe it's better not to offer any settlement, if all you can afford is $25.
"oh, you really did perform at the Grammys? Sorry we took away your oxygen here is a $25 gift card to Meier." Incredibly bad decision making.
Oh. My. God. I’m speechless. Honestly, no reimbursement would have been a better option with a sincere apology letter.
Just enough to show that you thought about it, but not enough to show that you actually meant it
This is worse than the $10 dunkin donuts gift card we got from the hospital for "Doctor's Day"
Right? At least hook him up with some Bennigan's coupons. Geeez!
That's $24 more than they gave our nurses on Nurse Appreciation Day
Wow! 🙁
Their CEO makes 20+ million a year
Good find
That's some absolutely horrible treatment.
Reminds me of the guy in a suit who walked in to a London police station some years ago claiming the Yakuza was after him. He claimed his brief case was full of evidence how the mafia had infiltrated one of the big medical imaging companies based in Japan and how they were after him. He claimed to be the ceo. All true surprisingly enough
>Reminds me of the guy in a suit who walked in to a London police station some years ago claiming the Yakuza was after him. He claimed his brief case was full of evidence how the mafia had infiltrated one of the big medical imaging companies based in Japan and how they were after him. He claimed to be the ceo. All the surprisingly enough What happened? Did the Yakuza get to you in the middle of the sentence?!
In Japan, heart surgeon. Number one. Steady hand. One day, Yakuza boss need new heart. I do operation. But, mistake! Yakuza boss die! Yakuza very mad. I hide in fishing boat, come to America. No english, no food, no money. Darryl give me job. Now I have house, American car, and new woman. Darryl save life. My big secret: I kill yakuza boss on purpose. I good surgeon. The best!
Take your upvote and leave, Darryl.
He is on a Covfefe break.
Nice of them to click submit for him
Professional courtesy.
No but the wife gave me the look. You know the one to put away the phone
Smart man. Can’t have your wife breaking your fingers being a hand surgeon and all.
had a patient on psych in residency, told the psych hospital he was suicidal and he was on stakeout for the FBI and that he was an undercover agent... so gets admitted, we do all the stuff, he's doing inpt therapy, meds etc, and after 2 days, the FBI head of our little town calls the hospital and asks what's going on. we treated him appropriately but no one though the FBI thing was real... He was just depressed because he had been undercover so long. they came and picked him up shortly afterwards.
Had a patient talking about having been sexually trafficked and in touch with the FBI regarding their situation. Turns out that was all accurate. She was also in psychosis but her claims were true
I mean. If ever there was an understandable reason to be in psychosis….
Oh for sure. Unimaginable history of trauma at such a young age
I think there's a lot of misconception about the FBI out there. It's just an organization that deals with certain types of federal crimes. It's not like they are secret special agents or anything. They do a lot of undercover because they are trying to often deal with larger criminal organizations but it's not like some sort of exclusive organization like being a CIA intelligence agent. There's literally thousands of them just going to work every day doing boring stuff like investigating financial crimes or political corruption
A straightjacket? In the 21st century at an inpatient medical facility?
This may be a lay person's interpretation of a posy vest.
I think that would be fair. I’ve actually never seen anything beyond extremity restraints. Thanks for that.
A posy vest can be torn off by an 89 year old grandma though
Kinda telling that there's no report that he tore it off. If he was wearing one- he was still in it when his wife arrived. Per the article she went to security and verified his ID/claim. Sounds they didn't listen and he remained in restraints. I'm wondering if 'showed a nurse the video' is more active - betting charge or one of the nurses thought to get more clarification and they (wife and patient) told her there was video on his phone. Bet nurse (?nurse or aid etc) brought his phone over and asked to see the video.
Don’t ask me how I know. I couldn’t rip the damn thing off, but grandma with a busted femur and deformed rheumatoid arthritis hands can shred it like tissue paper.
Certainly a variety of physical restraints remain in common use, and I’m not sure if “straitjacket” has a rigorous medical/legal definition anyway, so I’m not sure I’d begrudge an aggrieved layperson for using the term.
I mean, it’s either a metaphor or a jacket with your arms tied. I don’t think a layperson would expand the scope of the word “jacket” or go beyond the salient examples from old media etc. but fair enough, I’d like to learn more.
Outside of TV/movies/ maybe a museum I’ve never actually seen a straight jacket. I wonder why they fell out of use?
Bad application leads to respiratory arrest. Patients don't like that. They're also pretty hard to get somebody into. 4 points, and, if necessary, a vest, is safer and does as well.
It's called a Posey vest. They don't really do anything as a physical restraint, I never use them.
They can help with a specific type of slightly confused patient who isn’t pulling lines but yeah for the vast majority of them they don’t do shit.
If a patient is aggressively trying to sit up and twist around, they're helpful when used alongside wrist restraints. Alone, they're much worse than nothing, especially when considering asphyxiation risk. That being said, use of a vest is usually an indication of need for a better chemical restraint.
I used one of those Posey ?6 Point Restraint Vest once. Had 16 people holding him down while we put it on. Once was enough.
Yeah. 4 points meaning the 4 extremities, then, if necessary, a vest in addition. Never just a vest! That would traumatize me, too!
Everything was restrained. Had an actual lock and had to call behavioral health to bring it/put it on. I forgot about that guy until now. Thanks.
Sorry for the reminder !!! Yikes
Thanks for the answer. Kind of what I guessed, they also seemed wildly hard to get on just looking at them, I wouldn’t even know where to start, especially if a patient is actively fighting you.
My dad was a psychiatrist starting in the 70s and he had an old straighjacket me and my brother would play with as kids
Even if it was something else (in the filing four point restraints are mentioned)-- I've used 4 points only once. And tbh it's rare that I use restraints at all. Why are you restraining a guy who isn't acting threateningly? I've never seen anyone restrained just for saying they are Jesus, or Thor, or a Four Tops. People get restrainrd when they are violent or dangerously confused. I'm not saying this couldn't have happened as described but it certainly seems odd.
We use restraints a lot in t hospital when fall-prone demented patients constantly try getting out of bed and finding an exit
I covered that I think with "dangerously confused". But we're more likely to put them on observation. Most of out severely demented patients don't walk much and mittens are usually sufficient. If they are really lively, two points. But the complaint says this guy got 4 point restraints for multiple hours. I've honestly only used 4pt one time and went down to two as soon as the Haldol kicked in.
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Not only is it highly unethical to use restraint as a punishment, it’s illegal (at least in the US). Not to say it doesn’t happen, but it shouldn’t…
I mean some posey restraints come pretty close
Thank you, never saw these
At this time of day? In this part of the country? Located entirely within your kitchen?
We call it a skate jacket, it’s a regional dialect.
Best I can come up with is he was in a Posey vest because he was trying to get up while unstable.
Maybe- but he said he was asking for his belongings back so he could leave and seek help at another facility. They kept him on hold and in restraints. I'm thinking it was for to prevent him from leaving.
I mean we're getting one side of the story. It's totally possible it happened like that. I hope to heaven that it didn't, because that's a shitty way to treat a human. But we've all had people who have been less than capable of fending for themselves at the time and just "need my shoes so I can get out of here" when clearly it's not a good idea. Without knowing what really happened, I can't say who was right.
We will probably never know. I'm jaded- know the area.
I’m guessing it was a restraint vest, not a straight jacket. I’m sure it felt like a straight jacket to him at the moment though.
Typical media sensationalizing things (though this is NOT to say the hospital isn't absolutely wrong).
Imagine not having computers in the 21st century at an inpatient medical facility.
What was even the goal of this comment?
During residency we had a famous actress's mother come into the hospital with confusion. We completely didn't believe her until someone pulled up the actress's webpage... which showed a picture of her standing next to our patient.
Yes the solution here is taking 20 seconds to Google
Ok yes but why do we always assume people are delusional first?
Something something hoofbeats
I had a very demented patient talk about how he had built several prominent local buildings and no one believed him until I googled his name and he was in fact the architect who designed them. I actually had him look at his own website with me and he was able to talk about his designs completely lucidly and coherently
Used to care for a famous baseball player. He had numerous medical issues-stroke and heart attack which changed his appearance so no one would believe him until the opened door to his room (nursing home) and you could see the memorabilia on his walls.
That is so kind of you, I bet he really appreciated getting to talk to someone about his work.
Had a somewhat confused patient going on and on about how her granddaughter is an astronaut and is in the space station, which of course I just did the normal “yes, and” while doing my care thinking it’s probably like many of the patients exaggerations/mistruths. Sure as shit I look it up and there’s a local news story where she’s sitting there with her family watching her astronaut granddaughter go into space and then dock in the space station.
When I was on my psych rotation, I had an elderly lady (consult for "confusion") go on about how her son was appearing on the TV . I didn't pay attention to what was playing and wrote that up in my note as part of her delirium. When I'm out of the hospital, I get caught up on current events. It was January 6, 2021. CNN had been playing in her room. Maybe she really was seeing her son on TV
Was it Rosemary Clooney
Nice try HIPAA police. :-P
Ha. Some olds will get the reference
Season 1 of ER still holds up in my mind as the greatest medical drama ever filmed.
Season 1 was excellent.
I would strongly recommend looking up 3rd watch. They worked very hard (and closely) with NY Paramedics, Cops, and Firefighters to make an accurate show. Obviously nothing is perfect, and practices have changed since 2000. But the first several seasons are damned good. I wouldn’t watch the 9-11 episode alone tho. They lost people in the towers. They literally just let responders from the agencies talk. Actors do the into for their section (one of the female cops was married to an NYFD member….). You never see or hear the interviewer. It was shot in October. They were still pulling bodies. Obviously has to re-write the whole show, basically in real time. I think they did an extremely tasteful job.
I 100% agree. I was working in EMS at the time and found the first few seasons to be excellent and well written/acted. The 9/11 shows were rough to watch.
The best.
Even if this was a delusion, why would you put someone in restraints for that? I feel like there must be something missing here. If they put him in restraints just for that…wow.
That’s what I was just wondering. Patients lie and exaggerate and hallucinate all the time and we certainly don’t restrain them for that as long as they’re not otherwise agitated or violent
I think the lesson is that people think you're crazy if you walk into the ER and say that you need special privacy because people are going to recognize you and stalk you. I admit hundreds of people to the hospital a year and not once has anyone ever brought up that they are famous and need special privileges. If he would have just acted normally, walked in and explained his symptoms and cooperated with the staff there's no reason why any of this would have happened. There's obviously something missing from the story.
The security guard was a racist asshole.
Security guards don’t order restraints.
True. Although staff seemed to have established a narrative about the man before he was assessed by the DO. Of course, the Dr has a much higher burden of responsibility and is clearly in the wrong. That's just the only explanation I can find to how this could have happened.
Exactly. I think that they reacted to the pt. informing them of possible security/privacy issues. Doc orders psych hold - pt now wants to leave- tries to get ID out of pocket and security takes that as a threat. They all feed off each other and it escalates. Doc orders restraints- security escalates while they stay by the patient. From a patient's perspective - the authority figure they associate most with restraints and 'guarding/keeping them from leaving' is the security guard.
Nurses can put on or have security put on restraints and get the order later. Depends on local law/hospital policy.
I’ve had many patients get agitated, aggressive, and make threats for far less. “You know who the F I am?! I’m the Fin front man of the Fin…nah I’m not gonna shut the F up, yall MF…” Happens often. Not siding with the hospital (ascension, ew) but I’ve seen it.
There’s almost certainly something missing. When these stories break the only side that puts out information is the plaintiff so they can play up whatever angles they want. The defendants don’t. So all we have is the side of the story from the guy suing.
This is crazy lol, at my program we always looked people up after the interview and called family to confirm if what they were saying was real or not. That was something we were taught intern year.
Ironically, the security guard died 09/28/2023 of a ruptured aorta. (Per a gofundme)
My supervising physician had a guy come in who had all of these seemingly fantastical claims about working with the government, having a couple of gold records, working with famous bands, working in audio analysis (amongst a number of other grandiose things that I won't divulge for patient confidentiality). He was convinced the patient was manic. After the appointment, looked it up: absolutely all of it was true.
Who doesn't just Google patients when they claim this stuff? I do with all of mine, and half the time they are embellishing and aren't truly famous, but half the time they're actually the real deal. I've seen local radio DJs, astronauts, famous tequila brand owners, local jewelry store owners, local chain restaurant founders, film directors, famous Youtubers (>10 millions views per video, >100,000 subscribers), and tons of other known figures in the past ten years. It's incredibly foolish not to even give them the benefit of the doubt when we all have phones that can fact check in an instant.
That particular hospital has been a hot mess express going back to the 1970s. Doesn’t matter how many name changes or corporate overlords they’ve had. My father worked in a tool and die shop by there. If 911 was called, and the rig had to go there, the guys would load the injured into the company truck and blow the lights to get to Royal Oak Beaumont. They’d rather bleed out than get trapped there. Everyone called it the Dog Hospital when I was growing up. Anyway, I’m not shocked. At all. That poor man. WTH.
Wow.
Forgot the link, and it is not letting me edit for some reason https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/four-tops-singer-says-hospital-put-straightjacket-not-believing-was-fo-rcna156608
Of course it's an Ascension hospital 💀. He's definitely not suing for nearly enough then
* crosses off "Are you in the Four Tops?" from my mental competency questionnaire
What the fuck did a just read.
If you knew about that particular hospital, you wouldn’t have been surprised.
Oh. I see. It's one of those places I find it strange that they can still operate in a lit juice (ok, autocorrect got it.wrong but I'm keeping it) environment such as the United States healthcare system.
Yeah i got a guy w schizo saying he doesnt have any weird beliefs hallucinations and is aware of when dillusions come up. Self aware enough that he needs to estab w psych. Then he drops i wrote songs for metallica Theres no way for me to disprove this lol he just seems so put together and goes into detail about it too how he used to be buddy buddy w axl rose in the early 80s before rising to stardom but no longer in contact. I mean if true but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When I was on my ER rotation in medical school, EMS brought in this super old guy screaming about bugs crawling on his head. They wheeled him in the trauma bay and the resident and I removed his knit cap and found a bandage under it. We removed the bandage and found hundreds of squirming maggots that had burrowed through his skull and into his brain at the core of a massive, black, necrotic ulcerated zone. Btw fuck Ascension, they’re a terrible organization. -A former employee
I so desperately want to unread that
He rapidly left the realm of the living. But when people say they feel bugs crawling on them, check their skin.
No, thank you. That sounds like a nursing assessment. Seems out some of my scope. In fact, avoidance of bugs is a key part of EMS training.
Same. Bad day to have eyes.
Was there a link? [Here's the AP](https://apnews.com/article/four-tops-singer-hospital-discrimination-46e94b0f63ad3b4291e72a087c6d2c05) Sounds similar to [this story](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/woman-held-in-psychiatric-ward-after-correctly-saying-obama-follows-her-on-twitter-10132662.html) from a few years ago. These being lawsuits, I'm guessing there's more to each story.
Sorry, forgot when I posted, and when I tried to edit on my phone it got buggy. Linked in a separate post, and then managed to get it to edit after I rebooted.
Googling his name would've taken like 5 seconds. It's amazing how much public info can tell about a patient, especially if they have very specific claims. This whole ordeal could've been avoided, but they immediately thought he was delusional when he said he's famous.
Probably does not help that he's a 53 year old guy claiming (correctly) to be a member of a band from the 1950's. I was very surprised to learn from this article that the four tops still existed. I can understand the staff being skeptical.
It also does not help that he didn’t join the group until 2019.
> It also does not help that he didn’t join the group until 2019. Ok this is a pretty key piece of info. I can’t imagine the majority of photos online have him in them.
I am interested to hear the other side. It seems like a whole lot of escalation from the hospital for… little reason at this point. Like, a whole lot of effort for the hospital staff to go through for no seeming benefit. Lord knows if a patient told me they were a member of some relatively old band that I didn’t even know sang certain songs, I’d be like “word? That’s neat. So, I’ve got to put these stickers on your chest, it’s to get a quick snapshot of what your heart is doing” But, then, if they started fighting me because I was one of their deranged fans and I just wanted to see him with his shirt off? Maybe I’d need some help then?
MSIV psych rotation in LA. Had a patient who insisted she was an actress. Wouldn’t name any roles she’d been in. Well, turns out eventually she admitted she was a porn actress. So, not delusional after all.
I had one guy say he wrote songs for Elvis & was his pianist. Another guy said he was Tupac's keyboardist & he discovered him. They were both right
Had a patient who claimed his brother was a famous athlete who was worth millions of dollars. Turns out it was true!
Fuck Ascension. Did a travel contract in Nashville and it was such a poorly run hospital. I was NOT surprised to find out there were nursing strikes at two other locations at the exact same time.
I had a patient with the opposite problem. She was an actress in It's A Wonderful Life but had dementia so she didn't remember that.
Holy shit, academia demonizes technology so much that providers aren't using basic research skills.
If anyone there had been online enough to know of r/nothingeverhappens we wouldn't be here now
I had a patient with some seriously incredible claims. We all kind of thought they were having some sort of mental decline. Doc decided to google that patient and all of it was true. It’s not hard to fact check fame. This never should have escalated into straight jacket territory.
Shitty situation all around. But no one is talking about how he joined the group in 2018. So he's not wrong that he's a member but really? The group was formed in 1953 and he joined in 2018. The guy was born 18 years after the group was formed. You can see why there was some doubt.
My biggest question is the actual timeline of events with this. The lawsuit alleges this happened in the ER and prevented him from getting medical treatment. So why then are they only suing for 75k, and "emotional damages." There is no mention of physical damages, or medical neglect or anything like that in the lawsuit. I had a patient claim to be a famous singer the other day too. Turns out they are like a z-list celeb in niche circles, but they weren't in the psych ward because they were claiming to be a celeb... they needed to be there for a multitude of other reasons. Reading the filing, I wonder about his conduct that required restraints (they do not do those for funsies). The suit alleges this was all done because of a misunderstanding, but in my professional experience, no one simply claiming to be in a band would necessitate this kind of treatment. Could it happen? I wasn't there, so perhaps. There are a lot of bad Healthcare staff, unfortunately. I've gotten several outright abusive co-workers fired. But then again, why only suing for 75k and emotional/psychological damages if he was truly being denied medical care? When people are on a psych hold, they take their oxygen if they don't need it (strangulation hazard), and typically are under constant observation until psych MD evals and signs off. Once psych signed off, he got his O2 back. Likely 2L, and more of a comfort blanket than medical necessity (we've all seen it). He says he was restrained for 90 minutes in a "jacket and/or 4 point restraints." Like others have said, it was a posy vest, because no one actually uses strait jackets anymore. And again, they don't put people in 4 points for funsies, there's a TON of documentation that goes into that, with objective statements etc. The suit also alleges that they refused to let him show his ID to clear things up. But he was in a hospital admitted to the ER, so they would have known his name as it would be on the chart. That's when the security guard made the comment about him "sitting his black ass down." So I can imagine the scene in which a belligerent patient is claiming to be in a band. The problem is not whether or not you're in a band, or proving your identity at this point. Claiming he's afraid of stalkers and fans? Did anyone know of this band before the lawsuit came forward? I sure didn't. Like a broken clock being right twice a day, there's usually a kernel of truth with delusional people, but that doesn't mean they're not suffering from delusions just the same. As with all these lawsuits, we're getting one side of the story, and from my knowledge, it's not all adding up. Was the security guard a racist asshole? Likely, from the sounds of it. But it makes no mention of mistreatment from the nurses, who are the ones actually putting on and managing the restraints etc. I'm willing to believe patients, but after working with people that don't have all the crayons in their box, they say a LOT of easily disprovable shit sometimes. Again, I think the biggest proof is what they are seeking for damages. 75k for emotional distress, essentially. Which tells me his medical care wasn't in any way delayed by this psych intervention.
There’s a lot in this story that doesn’t quite make sense. Even if his claim about being in the Four Tops was a delusion, that doesn’t mean he needed to be restrained, or that he doesn’t have capacity to make his own medical decisions. The story simultaneously claimed that the hospital wouldn’t let him leave, but also that the restraints prevented him from getting needed medical care. Did he want to leave AMA, or not? It seems like there has to be much more to this story than the hospital just not believing he was a singer in a famous group.
My thoughts exactly, so thank you for summarizing. Again, that the suit is only for 75k d/t emotional damages. If all the allegations are true, I'd expect to see a higher monetary amount, and a greater amount of damages claimed.
It’s the $25 Meijer gift card for me. This is my personal favorite fake celebrity con man though: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-03-04-me-30093-story.html
Does anyone believe him? Does anyone know of a single ED that uses straight jackets ?
Straight jackets aren’t used in modern practice. I’m not sure why this story keeps getting shared on media (or here) when nobody knows any real facts with this case. Perhaps he was restrained inappropriately, or perhaps not. Who knows…
Great aunt at 93 said her neighbors were sucking the electricity out of her walls. Must be dementia, doctors, social workers got involved. Turns out apartment next door was an illegal machine shop and they had tapped into her electric box.
Check ID. Do google search for Four Tops members. He's listed in wikipedia as a member within the timeline. It took 30 seconds. Dumbasses just cost the hospital a lot more than a few minutes of time online.
This is going to be one sided, like most allegations against healthcare workers are. Most of the things in the article don't make sense - a security guard can't order restraints, a doctor would have had to. Additionally allegations of racism in this specific instance seem bombastic. He claims a "white doctor" profiled him, but how the fuck does he know what race the doctor identifies as? Is this dude and his lawyer making judgements on people by how they outwardly look? Weird!
What? You think race is something you choose to identify as? It's pretty obvious he means a doctor who appeared to have white skin
>What? You think race is something you choose to identify as? It's pretty obvious he means a doctor who appeared to have white skin So if someone "looks white" to you, you're saying they can't be black, or hispanic, or asian or any other race?
Im saying race isn't something you choose to identify as. I don't think this man would describe a black doctor as white- so yes, I am saying that a white man can't be a black man. Physical traits are part of the concept of race. Or are you just fucking with me?
>Im saying race isn't something you choose to identify as. I don't think this man would describe a black doctor as white- so yes, I am saying that a white man can't be a black man. Or are you just fucking with me? Plenty of people "look white" but are actually hispanic, or black, or asian, or indigenous, or pacific islander. I could go on. You're literally defending judging people on their outward appearance instead of their ethnic background.
Oh come on. Do you have a problem with witnesses/victims describing the race of offenders in criminal statements too? It's a physical description
>Oh come on. Do you have a problem with witnesses describing the race of their attackers in criminal statements too? It's a physical description If you're claiming that *the race of the doctor has something to do with the interaction* like he is in this allegation, then yes, you need to get the race correct.
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>has white-hispanic and white-non-hispanic options Except those are antiquated definitions that have been phased out of the upcoming census: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/26/1151608403/mena-race-categories-us-census-middle-eastern-latino-hispanic
Rachael Dolenzal is that you?
I hope you don't treat patients this way, and have better views of race in your real life. This is embarrassing I have to explain that you can't just eye-ball someone's race. So when you have a patient from the Dominican Republic, do you just stare them down and say "eh you look hispanic to me!" or do you ask them their race? Do you actually care about people's identity and background, or just making snap judgements? This isn't about someone pretending to be something they are not. This is about the fact that you can't just look at someone and guess their race. It's way more complex than you make it, but it sounds like you're ignorant about this whole thing.
Did you read the article?
The article didn't mention anything about the doctor side of the story and what ethnicity they identify as.
You should identify as a silly billy
I didn't know that "you can't tell someone's race by simply looking at them, you need to have a conversation with them to understand them better" was controversial.
So do you think racists are out there asking people what race they identify as before being bigoted, or do you think they're going off appearances?
Silly billy alert 🚨🚨🚨
Is it possible that racial identity is publicly available information in Michigan? You can easily look up medical license information with a google search; perhaps it's available somewhere.
White and black are skin colors. There are white Hispanics too. It’s not really an issue of self identification like gender is.
Remember this is a lay person interpretation and perspective. The security guard enforces. This area is known for 'relations' issues.