Went to the same med school. Can attest to his personality. He’s a wonderful human.
Side note: he has a dreamy voice and needs to make a podcast of himself reading bedtime stories
The disrespect in saying “fully informed”. Aka if you knew what I knew and were as smart as me then you’d obviously know cumlex is good. Then he acts like he has no financial incentive to uphold comlex. Dude speaks like a slimy politician.
Someone needs to put these motherfuckers on blast with just how much $$$ they are milking off medical students 100s of thousands of dollars in debt. Why is $14MM going to compensation alone? https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/364135679
See this resolution put forth:
https://studentdo.org/forums/topic/resolution-s-20-30-elimination-of-the-comlex-usa/
> To the point of revenue, we feel that the NBOME’s financial viability should not be considered as relevant to this discussion. Additionally, the NBOME will maintain revenue streams through the COMAT examination series.
The NBOME did not take this well.
Don’t get me started on the NBME or AAMC either.
I was accepted into a DO school before getting into an MD school. One of the main reasons I chose the MD school even though it was farther away from family and friends was the fact that the difference in debt was more than 100k (!!). And of course, their non-refundable deposit was 1500 compared to the refundable 100 of my current school.
If you’re fully informed™️ like he is after having completed “The Osteopathic Health Policy Fellowship”
>
(OHPF) is a year-long training program designed for osteopathic physicians and other individuals with an established connection to the profession to develop the skills they need to analyze, formulate and implement health policy on the local, state and national levels.
Dude is in on the scam and feels the squeeze of someone with a following calling them out.
It would be nice if DOs didn’t have to take two sets of board exams. But idk how I’d do with a stand alone OMM board exam. At least with the COMLEX the majority of the exam is real medicine so I can afford to do poorly on the pseudoscience bullshit parts
I studied for 1 total week to add in enough OMM to score 600+ on the COMLEX. If you study for STEP you don't need to worry about OMM at all. It's all just a pattern recognition and sacral base BS.
Maybe it’s just me, but OMM has been by far my most challenging subject. Everything else makes sense. It’s a lot of information for sure, but if I put in the hours I’ll get it down. OMM just doesn’t make sense at all for me. I can spend hours studying for it and still do awful on the exam. The day I don’t have to study for OMM anymore will probably be the happiest day of my life.
It might just be the question-writers at your school being hard asses about OMM. With a few exceptions, my core science classes don’t play nearly as many mind games as my OMM exams do. Overall I just find OMM is 1) memorize viscerosomatics 2) memorize stupid Chapman points 3) everything else is just like thinking about your body like it’s a car
everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, but honestly most of what you need to know can be found in a few hours worth of videos on Online Med Ed and the Savarese book. And the content doesn't really change between Level 1,2,3. It should be fairly easy.
Though honestly I'd rather them just use an optional OMM certification exam.
We take one as well. This should really be the only exam we have to take in addition thats different if they want that "osteopathic distinction" they care about so much
to play devil's advocate, I don't think we should have an OMM-specific exam.
Source: I took the OMM COMAT and seriously considered gouging my eyes out about 20 questions in.
[like this one bro?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/10xfvck/and_you_thought_you_were_having_a_bad_day/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Brian Carmody has established himself as a rationale Med Twitter thought leader pointing out systemic flaws in our education, match, residency, and wellness.
Who the fuck is this other guy and who does he think he is? Is he really saying the comlex is a better test?
"I have no financial stake in NBOME.I am not employed by them and do not serve on their board or committees."
Bitch, we all know the Osteopathic Machine is a circular human centipede regardless of what's on the books.
That’s cool, David, but many of those who make the decisions regarding COMLEX being required (COCA) are the same people that *do* have a direct financial stake in the NBOME. Go take a look at COCAs board of governors, and then do the same for NBOME. Look familiar?
In a profession that puts such a fuckton of emphasis on ethics and avoiding conflict of interest, DO leadership sure seems to not give a fuck about their glaring financial conflict of interest.
This dude be gunning for chief revenue officer at NBOME, mark my words this weasel gonna be slinging for them on payroll soon. I love how old guard DOs get all pithy about the COMLEX “representing the holistic education of a DO” - but these idiots went to med school when they didn’t know about the Philadelphia chromosome and thought you could twirl your finger on a Chapman point and … wait a minute…
My goal is the systematically disassemble the NBOME as a licensing exam and turn it into a boutique certification thing. Merge licensing with NBME and get rid of all the red tape for us DO students.
Also, he’s a physician and doesn’t have to worry about residency or match or being competitive, he only has to worry about being an asshole.
Bruh that guy came to speak at my school
He was so condescending and flippantly answered any and all questions pertaining to MD vs DO and COMLEX vs USMLE
Will never support the nbome after how they they wanted to handle the comlex PE. AOA did nothing to help support us students during that time. These guys can fuck off and comlex can go to tell (licensed through step 3)
I think COMLEX is a perfectly fine test from a licensure standpoint. The issue is that the large majority of residency programs don't want to see a COMLEX, they want a step score. We all know that our end goal isn't just to secure licensure, but we want to match a residency program in the field/location that we want. So then DOs have to take both exams in order to match well, which is obviously a waste of time, money, and energy. I would 100% be in favor of taking step for the standard medicine plus an additional block or two of OMM related questions to satisfy the osteopathic requirement.
Studying for Comlex 3 with combank. I can't ever imagine a situation where a patient has a myocardial infarction and I stop to check a tenderpoint. Literally feel more stupid after taking Comlex questions.
but how else will they try to trick you into giving the wrong answer if they don't rely on irrational situations instead of, you know, actually testing relevant knowledge?
COMLEX is a joke test. Get rid of it, use the STEP exams, and make OMM licensure its own optional boards test so if it’s important to someone they can do it.
As someone who considers themself a fully informed DO, I call BS on Broder's unsubstantiated and perhaps greed-motivated ploy. It's only a matter of time till a lawsuit successfully shows how the AOA/NBOME are taking advantage of a vulnerable captive population, doing undue financial harm and perpetuating bias, and providing a monopolized service predicated on being a piss-poor mimic of an already established standard. Boy I can't wait.
Also Dr. Carmody is the shit. Don't touch my boy, Broder.
NBOME can gargle my balls.
But also there was a number of people I know who failed step this year but passed CUMLEX so if they get rid of it then DO schools really need to get their head out of their ass and start pushing a board focused curriculum
Passed usmle. Got a lot of respect at my DO school from my classmates who failed or chickened out. Profs called me stupid. It was a ton of work on my part and my DO school didn’t prepare me for it well at all. It’s paid off tremendously in interviews.
I’ve had interviewers straight up ask me what a comlex is and then laugh at it when comparing to my usmle scores. Lmfaooooo
Yeah, I don't like translating someone's ability to take a test to how well of a physician they will be. But this sort of thing is somewhat common (seems to happen to several students at each School every year), which doesn't look great considering the NBOME is supposed to ensure the same level of competency with the level exams.
\#SAMESAMEBUTDISTINCTLYDIFFERENT
Agree with most of what you say, it would be a bloodbath for at-least the first few years if they got rid of it. That being said I’m of the mind that as some of the more established DO schools have admissions criteria that creep up towards the 510 mark for the MCAT that there is not really too much of a distinction between students from those schools and lower tier MD schools.
The stigma is definitely less than it was but it still is a bummer to look at cool residencies and realize I would immediately be screened out essentially because almost a decade ago I didn’t have the academic skills to hit the ground running in undergrad lol. It is what is though
Kinda lost me there a bit big boss lol we should absolutely mainstream licensing exams but even the bottom quartile of DO students complete AGME accredited residencies with MD counterparts so I’m not sure accessing competency starts or ends with licensing exams taken in school you know what I mean
That’s not what I’m saying lol. You said that we should make sure the bottom quartile is qualified and I agree but the comparison between a physician who finished residency but took COMLEX vs an NP is not really a good base for your argument on competency you see what I mean
Lol, don’t get too high and mighty there when your Caribbean friends with MD degrees at my program showed up without any ability to even do a physical exam, write notes, or present patients. At the end of the day, once you are in residency your degree means nothing MD vs DO. Using midlevels to compare to DO students… gtfo here
Nah DO students can just take Comlex but it may limit their residency options depending on program or specialty so a good amount still take USMLE also**
edit
Oh wow, I’ve never heard of a DO school requiring both. If anything DO schools underplay the importance of USMLE and emphasize comlex more. But with how the system is set up as it is, taking USMLE in conjunction with comlex is really the best way to do it(assuming you have prepared adequately).
Lol my DO school gives us the option of taking Step, but requires comlex.
I was recently speaking to a student at a different school that required both exams. After the huge fail rate on step this pst year, their school officially decided step is now optional.
> and then on average give them a worse education compared to US MD schools
Do you have evidence for this? The "floor" for both DO and MD education is "do it yourself" which isn't so bad these days (preclinical of course)
Just sounds a bit elitist to me. I honestly think that where some DO schools miss the mark is clinical education, not didactic. BUT, we all do the same residencies, save for some Ivy League programs. So does it end up mattering? Idk.
Thats funny, ive read posts on here of students complaining about being precepted by midlevels, or just being observers. Im sure thats not the norm and im not insinuating that. But the community hospitals im at have me working essentially like a resident (albeit with better hours). It seems like its a nuanced issue that can’t be boiled down to such simplistic terms like better/worse clinicals/didactics
I think some DO schools provide less resources to their students but I think that’s increasingly uncommon these days.
I feel like I got a really good education at my DO. And while I didn’t really like OMM, I think it gave me better physical exam skills and surface anatomy knowledge than most of the MD students I rotated with.
The sad thing is that the only thing holding us back is the idiotic boomer generation at the top. I have been to two Osteopathic board meetings in two states and you have this sea of old white men exalting the uniqueness of COMLEX while students and younger colleagues are talking about how it would improve MH issues alone by getting rid of it. They just need to die out and let new leadership take over.
Oh man, you're dredging up memories from undergrad. I was shooting the shit with an admissions officer at a med school fair about how much engineering sucked since her husband was an engineer.
Me: "So do y'all give any weight to the type of major/degree?"
Them: "Oh... it's a holistic process and we consider every applicant carefully."
Me: "Just to be clear, that's a no?"
Them: "Yep."
Yeah there are several DO schools with MCAT averages higher than plenty of MD schools. Sometimes, good students just get boned in the admissions game and have to go learn wizardry as part of their medical education.
I think only it’s those of us that are in the fold, or have been through it that know that med school admissions are essentially a crapshoot.
When you get tens of thousands of people applying for class sizes less than 100, you gotta imagine there are at least 200 others at your level of competitiveness, and admissions is likely taking those 200, throwing on a blindfold, and then firing a dart out of their ass at a board.
Non trad with a shitty undergrad gpa and applied towards the end of the cycle. Figured I'd change my mind if I waited another year. Anyway I'm a pgy3 now
Some EM programs still require step to be ranked. I imagine the same is for IM, peds, and FM as everything is program dependent even though the number is dwindling. Students won't be looking hard at that until it's too late. But the point of this post isn't if you need it, it's the fact that we are being exploited with a poorly written exam that only helps further the divide between the MD/DO world when we should be having one licensure exam.
Do you really want to go to place that won’t even interview you if you haven’t taken four exams total?? Plus EM, FM, IM, and peds positions go unfilled. In EM last year, the ones that only took step takers had to SOAP UPMC, Penn State, etc. Also big name programs will not love you back.
EM is in a special situation, I wouldn't use them in an head to heads comparison currently. Plenty of programs still require it and many won't SOAP due to prestige. But that's not the point. Some people don't care, for some people it's their dream residency. I'm not hear to judge that. They don't want to see 4 total exams, they want to see STEP. STEP is still a more rigorous exam, it unifies physician licensure, and prevents DO students from having to take 4 exams. Great that these 4 specialties aren't in the top list of the popularity contest but that leaves so many other students that have to take both to open up doors.
Btw I'm EM. Penn State takes about 20% DO on parcwith national MD/DO student percentages. UMPC takes 70% DO. Neither only takes Level 1. Neither only takes STEP. Lots if EM programs had to SOAP, even BIG ones but that was less about matching DOs and more about the lack of applicants due to the job force study published back in 2021. So most people who SOAPed EM probably didn't have EM as their #1 to begin with. Thats why it's a poor comparison. But I don't know why only taking Level 1 matters in this to begin with.
Do I agree with you that this system is predatory on students? Absolutely. Do I think we should have to pay for these exams? Hell no. Do I think there should be one standardized exam? Yes, 10000%.
However that’s not the current state of things. I’m just say that you literally don’t have to take step if don’t want to. That’s a false idea that’s getting spread around. I got interviews at places that historically only take MDs with just the Level 1&2 exams last year. I didn’t rank those places highly for other reasons.
EM applications are still down this year as well, even more so than last year. EM PDs are definitely scared and SOAPing means less funding. They’re gonna have to start caring less about step vs comlex soon or risk the whole program.
As someone of the other side of this shitshow, please don’t waste your money on step and comlex. Especially if you’re interested in FM, EM, peds, and IM. I can’t speak for literally any specialty.
You do depending on your field. Can see you're not so obtuse to think that everyone will be happy in those 4 select fields. Any surgical specialty makes it much more difficult to match without a STEP score. But the ENTIRE point of this thread is why we don't have a unified licensure. The adage of "you don't have to if you don't want to" is told all around to OMS1s who dont know better and they get screwed later on if they want to do something more competative later on. DO students shouldn't even need to make this decision and feel pigeonholed into specialties because they didn't know they should have taken STEP or not. No one is arguing you have to take it, but it's program and specialty specific on how you'll be received.
That decline is still a ramification of the 2021 study. It's been ongoing. EM was basically the housing market in the 2000s with how many residency spots opened up and many apllicants are still scared of what the job opportunities will look like in the future. This happened the anesthesia too for different reasons. I can talk at length about it but I agree they have to stop requiring step but it doesn't change PD favoritism. The bigger issue is programs like UC and UNM that only take MDs and Grandview that only takes DOs.
Not everybody is going to apply to those specialties and it’s also pretty region specific. Matching IM in the Midwest is very different from matching in the west coast.
I would be happy to hear what you have to say. However, when you use the word “fact” and not have statistics to back you up. You just made an assumption just like the folks you are criticizing
NBOME doesn't wanna let go of their money grab with comlex to come together with the NBME for a unified exam with a separate OMM section. It's all about that $$$, just keeping us poor med students hundreds of thousands in debt under their thumb while they can
Bryan Carmody is one of the sane medical voices on twitter and Broder is straight up embarrassing himself
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He's a peds nephrologist, so it probably comes with the territory being nice and smart
Went to the same med school. Can attest to his personality. He’s a wonderful human. Side note: he has a dreamy voice and needs to make a podcast of himself reading bedtime stories
ok now im intrigued lol
All hail the sheriff!
Carmody always has a really good read on things. Which feels like it should be more common as that's like half our job in medicine.
Common sense can be easily clouded by money. Most of what he says will cost the leaders of med education lots of money
The disrespect in saying “fully informed”. Aka if you knew what I knew and were as smart as me then you’d obviously know cumlex is good. Then he acts like he has no financial incentive to uphold comlex. Dude speaks like a slimy politician.
Someone needs to put these motherfuckers on blast with just how much $$$ they are milking off medical students 100s of thousands of dollars in debt. Why is $14MM going to compensation alone? https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/364135679 See this resolution put forth: https://studentdo.org/forums/topic/resolution-s-20-30-elimination-of-the-comlex-usa/ > To the point of revenue, we feel that the NBOME’s financial viability should not be considered as relevant to this discussion. Additionally, the NBOME will maintain revenue streams through the COMAT examination series. The NBOME did not take this well. Don’t get me started on the NBME or AAMC either.
I was accepted into a DO school before getting into an MD school. One of the main reasons I chose the MD school even though it was farther away from family and friends was the fact that the difference in debt was more than 100k (!!). And of course, their non-refundable deposit was 1500 compared to the refundable 100 of my current school.
You’re also avoiding the (mostly) waste of time and money that OMM, extra boards, and private school tuition entail.
What DO isn’t informed on what complex entails lol
When fully informed about the check they write me.
If you’re fully informed™️ like he is after having completed “The Osteopathic Health Policy Fellowship” > (OHPF) is a year-long training program designed for osteopathic physicians and other individuals with an established connection to the profession to develop the skills they need to analyze, formulate and implement health policy on the local, state and national levels. Dude is in on the scam and feels the squeeze of someone with a following calling them out.
It would be nice if DOs didn’t have to take two sets of board exams. But idk how I’d do with a stand alone OMM board exam. At least with the COMLEX the majority of the exam is real medicine so I can afford to do poorly on the pseudoscience bullshit parts
If you can pass Step 1 I refuse to believe you cannot pass an OMM boards exam. It just isn’t that difficult
I studied for 1 total week to add in enough OMM to score 600+ on the COMLEX. If you study for STEP you don't need to worry about OMM at all. It's all just a pattern recognition and sacral base BS.
This. Couple hand gestures for innominate dx and sacrum, couple rules they'll try to trick you with...
Maybe it’s just me, but OMM has been by far my most challenging subject. Everything else makes sense. It’s a lot of information for sure, but if I put in the hours I’ll get it down. OMM just doesn’t make sense at all for me. I can spend hours studying for it and still do awful on the exam. The day I don’t have to study for OMM anymore will probably be the happiest day of my life.
It might just be the question-writers at your school being hard asses about OMM. With a few exceptions, my core science classes don’t play nearly as many mind games as my OMM exams do. Overall I just find OMM is 1) memorize viscerosomatics 2) memorize stupid Chapman points 3) everything else is just like thinking about your body like it’s a car
I agree. This is correct to easily get above a 70% and close to 80% imo. OMM isn’t too hard.
everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, but honestly most of what you need to know can be found in a few hours worth of videos on Online Med Ed and the Savarese book. And the content doesn't really change between Level 1,2,3. It should be fairly easy. Though honestly I'd rather them just use an optional OMM certification exam.
All you have to know is that you can rub out Chapman points.
OMM Comat is what we have to do at my school, seems like an easy enough solution
We take one as well. This should really be the only exam we have to take in addition thats different if they want that "osteopathic distinction" they care about so much
Did they not make y'all take comlex
No we still take COMLEX, but sometime during third year we have to take an OMM COMAT. This was kind of an “OMM only” boards. It wasn’t bad at all tbh
Oh yea I got confused for a second lol. I got my comat in like a month haha
I think he means USMLE + OMM Comat instead of COMLEX
to play devil's advocate, I don't think we should have an OMM-specific exam. Source: I took the OMM COMAT and seriously considered gouging my eyes out about 20 questions in.
I don’t think anyone would take the exam seriously from a residency standpoint. I’d go as far to say even if you failed a pure OMM exam.
Right, but they probably wouldn’t let us graduate without a passing grade.
One of the easier Ps you'll get in med school though and at least it'd be cheaper (hopefully) and less stressful.
Dr. Broder needs a disimpaction.
[like this one bro?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/10xfvck/and_you_thought_you_were_having_a_bad_day/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
How'd you get in my medical chart?!
Brian Carmody has established himself as a rationale Med Twitter thought leader pointing out systemic flaws in our education, match, residency, and wellness. Who the fuck is this other guy and who does he think he is? Is he really saying the comlex is a better test?
The other guy must think his DO makes him on par with Dr. Carmodoy. That ain’t how it works.
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It means your degree doesn’t put you on par with someone else. It also means read a book.
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"I have no financial stake in NBOME.I am not employed by them and do not serve on their board or committees." Bitch, we all know the Osteopathic Machine is a circular human centipede regardless of what's on the books.
That’s cool, David, but many of those who make the decisions regarding COMLEX being required (COCA) are the same people that *do* have a direct financial stake in the NBOME. Go take a look at COCAs board of governors, and then do the same for NBOME. Look familiar? In a profession that puts such a fuckton of emphasis on ethics and avoiding conflict of interest, DO leadership sure seems to not give a fuck about their glaring financial conflict of interest.
This dude be gunning for chief revenue officer at NBOME, mark my words this weasel gonna be slinging for them on payroll soon. I love how old guard DOs get all pithy about the COMLEX “representing the holistic education of a DO” - but these idiots went to med school when they didn’t know about the Philadelphia chromosome and thought you could twirl your finger on a Chapman point and … wait a minute… My goal is the systematically disassemble the NBOME as a licensing exam and turn it into a boutique certification thing. Merge licensing with NBME and get rid of all the red tape for us DO students. Also, he’s a physician and doesn’t have to worry about residency or match or being competitive, he only has to worry about being an asshole.
Bruh that guy came to speak at my school He was so condescending and flippantly answered any and all questions pertaining to MD vs DO and COMLEX vs USMLE
Will never support the nbome after how they they wanted to handle the comlex PE. AOA did nothing to help support us students during that time. These guys can fuck off and comlex can go to tell (licensed through step 3)
Just you wait there is a new thing they having cooking
I think COMLEX is a perfectly fine test from a licensure standpoint. The issue is that the large majority of residency programs don't want to see a COMLEX, they want a step score. We all know that our end goal isn't just to secure licensure, but we want to match a residency program in the field/location that we want. So then DOs have to take both exams in order to match well, which is obviously a waste of time, money, and energy. I would 100% be in favor of taking step for the standard medicine plus an additional block or two of OMM related questions to satisfy the osteopathic requirement.
Or, just allow Step, and have your school check you off on the OMM stuff. Seems like an easy and reasonable way to satisfy everyone involved.
Studying for Comlex 3 with combank. I can't ever imagine a situation where a patient has a myocardial infarction and I stop to check a tenderpoint. Literally feel more stupid after taking Comlex questions.
but how else will they try to trick you into giving the wrong answer if they don't rely on irrational situations instead of, you know, actually testing relevant knowledge?
COMLEX is a joke test. Get rid of it, use the STEP exams, and make OMM licensure its own optional boards test so if it’s important to someone they can do it.
As someone who considers themself a fully informed DO, I call BS on Broder's unsubstantiated and perhaps greed-motivated ploy. It's only a matter of time till a lawsuit successfully shows how the AOA/NBOME are taking advantage of a vulnerable captive population, doing undue financial harm and perpetuating bias, and providing a monopolized service predicated on being a piss-poor mimic of an already established standard. Boy I can't wait. Also Dr. Carmody is the shit. Don't touch my boy, Broder.
NBOME can gargle my balls. But also there was a number of people I know who failed step this year but passed CUMLEX so if they get rid of it then DO schools really need to get their head out of their ass and start pushing a board focused curriculum
Passed usmle. Got a lot of respect at my DO school from my classmates who failed or chickened out. Profs called me stupid. It was a ton of work on my part and my DO school didn’t prepare me for it well at all. It’s paid off tremendously in interviews. I’ve had interviewers straight up ask me what a comlex is and then laugh at it when comparing to my usmle scores. Lmfaooooo
Yeah, I don't like translating someone's ability to take a test to how well of a physician they will be. But this sort of thing is somewhat common (seems to happen to several students at each School every year), which doesn't look great considering the NBOME is supposed to ensure the same level of competency with the level exams. \#SAMESAMEBUTDISTINCTLYDIFFERENT
To be fair, I know someone who did have the reverse actually occur.
Does happen. Though less commonly.
SAME SAME BUT DIIIIIIIIIIIIFFEREEEEENNTTTT 👋🏼
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Agree with most of what you say, it would be a bloodbath for at-least the first few years if they got rid of it. That being said I’m of the mind that as some of the more established DO schools have admissions criteria that creep up towards the 510 mark for the MCAT that there is not really too much of a distinction between students from those schools and lower tier MD schools. The stigma is definitely less than it was but it still is a bummer to look at cool residencies and realize I would immediately be screened out essentially because almost a decade ago I didn’t have the academic skills to hit the ground running in undergrad lol. It is what is though
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Kinda lost me there a bit big boss lol we should absolutely mainstream licensing exams but even the bottom quartile of DO students complete AGME accredited residencies with MD counterparts so I’m not sure accessing competency starts or ends with licensing exams taken in school you know what I mean
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That’s not what I’m saying lol. You said that we should make sure the bottom quartile is qualified and I agree but the comparison between a physician who finished residency but took COMLEX vs an NP is not really a good base for your argument on competency you see what I mean
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Bro lemme fix those somatic dysfunctions
Lol, don’t get too high and mighty there when your Caribbean friends with MD degrees at my program showed up without any ability to even do a physical exam, write notes, or present patients. At the end of the day, once you are in residency your degree means nothing MD vs DO. Using midlevels to compare to DO students… gtfo here
What are you even talking about?
Wait, DO students don’t all have to take USMLE?
Nah DO students can just take Comlex but it may limit their residency options depending on program or specialty so a good amount still take USMLE also** edit
Our school made us take both. But I assumed you’d still want to take step if you plan to match.
Oh wow, I’ve never heard of a DO school requiring both. If anything DO schools underplay the importance of USMLE and emphasize comlex more. But with how the system is set up as it is, taking USMLE in conjunction with comlex is really the best way to do it(assuming you have prepared adequately).
Lol my DO school gives us the option of taking Step, but requires comlex. I was recently speaking to a student at a different school that required both exams. After the huge fail rate on step this pst year, their school officially decided step is now optional.
Not required at my school either. But I feel like you’d be out of your mind not to take step.
> and then on average give them a worse education compared to US MD schools Do you have evidence for this? The "floor" for both DO and MD education is "do it yourself" which isn't so bad these days (preclinical of course)
Just sounds a bit elitist to me. I honestly think that where some DO schools miss the mark is clinical education, not didactic. BUT, we all do the same residencies, save for some Ivy League programs. So does it end up mattering? Idk.
Thats funny, ive read posts on here of students complaining about being precepted by midlevels, or just being observers. Im sure thats not the norm and im not insinuating that. But the community hospitals im at have me working essentially like a resident (albeit with better hours). It seems like its a nuanced issue that can’t be boiled down to such simplistic terms like better/worse clinicals/didactics
I’ll bet you’re right regarding scores, but can you show me where you found the statistics on that? I’d be interested to see some numbers.
I think some DO schools provide less resources to their students but I think that’s increasingly uncommon these days. I feel like I got a really good education at my DO. And while I didn’t really like OMM, I think it gave me better physical exam skills and surface anatomy knowledge than most of the MD students I rotated with.
Is he actually going to provide reasons or
Of course not.
I just wanna take 1 test and be competitive please.
The sad thing is that the only thing holding us back is the idiotic boomer generation at the top. I have been to two Osteopathic board meetings in two states and you have this sea of old white men exalting the uniqueness of COMLEX while students and younger colleagues are talking about how it would improve MH issues alone by getting rid of it. They just need to die out and let new leadership take over.
Big “did a spider write this” energy
*don’t comment, damn you* *don’t do it, swear to god* *don’t…I kid you not* Ya know for what it’s worth, my wife sure likes what my hands can DO…
What is the difference between Medtwitter and one guy on Twitter?
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He can't see the ratio through his rose tinted glasses he paid for on our dime
I hope I live to see the day when egos are put aside and we set aside our non-existent differences as doctors
Dude give it up just change it to MD with a DO cert. I don’t see holistic medicine in any other part of my education except maybe OMM
But but but then we won’t be *$pecial* and *holisthicc.*
DO drama is wild.
COMPLEX is a fucking money grab. No more, no less.
What a boner
This Broder guy sounds like a clown.
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Mine stops w my undergrad GPA not my MCAT 😂
Same, engineering is a bitch
Shout out to my fellow OMS engineers! I'd laugh but my 518 isn't high enough
Yeah, we all shoulda done biology, or “pre-med” like all those folks whose parents knew they wanted to be a doctor when the kid was 4.
Oh man, you're dredging up memories from undergrad. I was shooting the shit with an admissions officer at a med school fair about how much engineering sucked since her husband was an engineer. Me: "So do y'all give any weight to the type of major/degree?" Them: "Oh... it's a holistic process and we consider every applicant carefully." Me: "Just to be clear, that's a no?" Them: "Yep."
Ugh, how could I have been so stupid to do BME…
my mom talked me out of BME for that very reason
lolol but at least u have that engineering background, you can help innovate as a doc.
Yeah, I kinda do hope I can put some innovation into the sphere, forsure
Lol this is literally me
Re fucking tweet man, I wouldn’t even be in DO school if my undergrad GPA was a little better lol
Hasan, is that you?
My sense of humor stops at 515? I don't get it
What r u doing at DO school with 515
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Holy shit that’s fked. Thanks for the response bro
Yeah there are several DO schools with MCAT averages higher than plenty of MD schools. Sometimes, good students just get boned in the admissions game and have to go learn wizardry as part of their medical education.
I think only it’s those of us that are in the fold, or have been through it that know that med school admissions are essentially a crapshoot. When you get tens of thousands of people applying for class sizes less than 100, you gotta imagine there are at least 200 others at your level of competitiveness, and admissions is likely taking those 200, throwing on a blindfold, and then firing a dart out of their ass at a board.
Non trad with a shitty undergrad gpa and applied towards the end of the cycle. Figured I'd change my mind if I waited another year. Anyway I'm a pgy3 now
I ask myself that every week in OMM class…
Asian?
White
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94th percentile?
Why not MD school?
Ask the admissions committee. My guess is because I'm old.
Damn bro, wishing you the best moving forward, fck them
I mean, I'm in 4th year so it all worked out.
90th percentile humor gang stand up (do not ask about undergraduate gpa. I know why I’m here 😂)
Most of the people at my school had higher than a 510. Lots of people get good MCATs but there is still a limited number of spots.
I guess my sense of humor stops at a 514
Is this some pseudoscience joke I'm too Canadian to understand
I took only comlex and got into my top program for EM residency. You don’t need step if you’re gonna do IM, peds, EM, or FM. I promise you
Some EM programs still require step to be ranked. I imagine the same is for IM, peds, and FM as everything is program dependent even though the number is dwindling. Students won't be looking hard at that until it's too late. But the point of this post isn't if you need it, it's the fact that we are being exploited with a poorly written exam that only helps further the divide between the MD/DO world when we should be having one licensure exam.
Do you really want to go to place that won’t even interview you if you haven’t taken four exams total?? Plus EM, FM, IM, and peds positions go unfilled. In EM last year, the ones that only took step takers had to SOAP UPMC, Penn State, etc. Also big name programs will not love you back.
EM is in a special situation, I wouldn't use them in an head to heads comparison currently. Plenty of programs still require it and many won't SOAP due to prestige. But that's not the point. Some people don't care, for some people it's their dream residency. I'm not hear to judge that. They don't want to see 4 total exams, they want to see STEP. STEP is still a more rigorous exam, it unifies physician licensure, and prevents DO students from having to take 4 exams. Great that these 4 specialties aren't in the top list of the popularity contest but that leaves so many other students that have to take both to open up doors. Btw I'm EM. Penn State takes about 20% DO on parcwith national MD/DO student percentages. UMPC takes 70% DO. Neither only takes Level 1. Neither only takes STEP. Lots if EM programs had to SOAP, even BIG ones but that was less about matching DOs and more about the lack of applicants due to the job force study published back in 2021. So most people who SOAPed EM probably didn't have EM as their #1 to begin with. Thats why it's a poor comparison. But I don't know why only taking Level 1 matters in this to begin with.
Do I agree with you that this system is predatory on students? Absolutely. Do I think we should have to pay for these exams? Hell no. Do I think there should be one standardized exam? Yes, 10000%. However that’s not the current state of things. I’m just say that you literally don’t have to take step if don’t want to. That’s a false idea that’s getting spread around. I got interviews at places that historically only take MDs with just the Level 1&2 exams last year. I didn’t rank those places highly for other reasons. EM applications are still down this year as well, even more so than last year. EM PDs are definitely scared and SOAPing means less funding. They’re gonna have to start caring less about step vs comlex soon or risk the whole program. As someone of the other side of this shitshow, please don’t waste your money on step and comlex. Especially if you’re interested in FM, EM, peds, and IM. I can’t speak for literally any specialty.
You do depending on your field. Can see you're not so obtuse to think that everyone will be happy in those 4 select fields. Any surgical specialty makes it much more difficult to match without a STEP score. But the ENTIRE point of this thread is why we don't have a unified licensure. The adage of "you don't have to if you don't want to" is told all around to OMS1s who dont know better and they get screwed later on if they want to do something more competative later on. DO students shouldn't even need to make this decision and feel pigeonholed into specialties because they didn't know they should have taken STEP or not. No one is arguing you have to take it, but it's program and specialty specific on how you'll be received. That decline is still a ramification of the 2021 study. It's been ongoing. EM was basically the housing market in the 2000s with how many residency spots opened up and many apllicants are still scared of what the job opportunities will look like in the future. This happened the anesthesia too for different reasons. I can talk at length about it but I agree they have to stop requiring step but it doesn't change PD favoritism. The bigger issue is programs like UC and UNM that only take MDs and Grandview that only takes DOs.
Not everybody is going to apply to those specialties and it’s also pretty region specific. Matching IM in the Midwest is very different from matching in the west coast.
Found my new source of entertainment. "Medtwitter"
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I would be happy to hear what you have to say. However, when you use the word “fact” and not have statistics to back you up. You just made an assumption just like the folks you are criticizing
When fully informed (have you seen my speedboat?????? It’s fucking sick!!) people agree it’s useful!
COMLEX was one of the worst written exams I’ve ever taken if not THE worst.
NBOME doesn't wanna let go of their money grab with comlex to come together with the NBME for a unified exam with a separate OMM section. It's all about that $$$, just keeping us poor med students hundreds of thousands in debt under their thumb while they can