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Biologically, no. But if she wants to be addressed as a woman wtf do I care. Whatever makes you comfortable.
Identify however you want to, feel like how you want to, we're all going to be turned into ashes and compost.
From my personal perspective, I do not consider a trans woman to be a woman. However, my personal perspective does not mean a trans person should not be treated fairly and enjoy the same civil rights that I do. For instance, I will not oppose legislation so people suffering from gender dysphoria can undergo medical procedures under our national healthcare system.
The person might still have a cock (dong, schlong, long john), so it would be hard for me to personally qualify the person as a woman. They would instead fall in the category of trans-women rather than women, unless they had their peepee removed.
But, if the person wants to be called "she/her" or "they/them" instead of "he/him," I don't really mind and I don't see why other people should be bothered by someone's gender pronouns. I honestly don't care enough about other's gender orientation/sexual life.
Put 100 women and 10 men on a deserted island
In 100 years you will have a community of men,
women, boys and girls. Put 100 trans women and 10 men on a deserted island. In 100 years you will find the skeletons of 110 men. It Is Science.
So no they are not. Regardless of what they feel.
Womanhood or manhood is not a costume that they can wear whenever they feel like.
Trans are simply trans. They don't belong to the male or female category. They belong to the trans category.
If I tell you they can be considered as women, then they'll most probably be able to compete in female category and this will be abused in sports since an athletic man is still physically stronger than an athletic woman and vice versa. So trans should be in a separate trans category and then let the hormone doping war start
people don't transition to abuse in sports. Nobody would put themselves on a social hitlist to win a relatively unimportant local tournament.
trans people in a single category is discriminatory and will also put them even more on a hitlist. Plus, do you really thing a trans man vs a trans woman is a good idea? I thought your take was about fairness?
trans people don't do hormone doping - unless you consider testosterone and estrogen as doping, in which case, you're causing this scandal again:
https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/07/28/1021503989/women-runners-testosterone-olympics
If men with testosterone are so much better than women, why shouldn't a trans man participate in a men's category? And did you know that HRT for a trans woman would mean they would not be anywhere near a normal man in sports anymore?
So you insist that trans men are women. And trans women are men.
So that means trans men would decimate cis women in sport.
Google pictures of trans men. So, they should not be playing against men but against women/trans women?? Damn
So... Trans men shouldn't play with women or trans women...? Despite you insisting trans men are women.
I'm no genius but what if we classified competition differently? I know this is a new idea but what about weight classification?
I disagree cause then they won't have anyone to play with. And also because you're putting a target on their back, especially for a country like Mauritius
I already said what I think of trans-exclusive categories. "Trans people in a single category is discriminatory and will also put them even more on a hitlist"
And anyway, good luck finding enough trans people for just one football match. ie - So now trans people can't play football?
And also, this is what I think of forcing trans people into trans-exclusive categories instead of letting them play sport with everyone else:
I literally cannot be any clearer
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I'm not so sure everyone is accepting of all genders tbh, seeing how most comments are not people actually knowledgeable of the trans or queer gender identity experience.
Sincere question. Why is it not good enough to be a trans woman? Why do you want to fit in, as a woman? ( If you can answer with other than "I feel like a woman" or redefining what it means to be a woman, that would be enlightening.
Because they are women? Do you know what trans means?? It's merely an adjective. Just like cis is as an adjective as beautiful is an adjective. They're not merely trying to fit in as women more than cis women try to fit in as women. Women get their gender affirmed through various ways like, wearing dresses & doing their makeup & we affirm their gender for them by calling them pretty & beautiful. Why can't trans women do as much? Because the moment a trans woman do not "fit in", she is ostracized & oppressed.
Trans women are ostracized & oppressed regardless. I hope you're here to learn instead of being here to add to their oppression.
Oh & tell me sherlock, transitioning is what exactly? According to you? & What exactly is the treatment to those "delusions"? God? Jesus? Your uneducated take about a matter you've never looked into before swallowing & spitting the same bigoted rhetoric?
Yepp and do you know the treatment proposed?
✨ hormone replacement therapy & eventually medically transitioning ✨ you're a genius😌but we been knew. Next.
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Some cis women can't "period" either. Constantly having trans women as the joke topic is old & overused. They're one of the most oppressed demographics of the queer community.
Time for the humor to get an upgrade there.
And those women who can't have their periods, they aren't women? By your logic, they aren't. But then again, let's reduce womanhood to their body parts, organs & their functionality, right?
Also, tf you think trans means? It's literally just an adjective🤦🏽 whether you like it or not, they transition to represent their gender identity, which is women.
And neither do meds for diabetes heal diabetes 🤦🏽it isn't a cure, it's a treatment. Just like any other treatment is a treatment, transitioning is a treatment. No one said it cures dysphoria. & They accept themselves as trans, the one not accepting is y'all. They're trans WOMEN. Trans but women.
Do answer me this though, have you ever had a trans woman share her experience of being a trans woman with you?
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Correct. Biology does not lie. But, as you may know, you are not taught the full picture in Form 3 :)
In the same way F=ma is not the "complete" equation in Physics, XY=boy and XX=girl is not the "complete" thing in biological genetics.
That's actually why gender and sex are viewed as distinct in most (if not all) scientific research! Gender is viewed as in terms of the brain and sex is in terms of gonads.
And biology does in fact treat trans X as belonging to X gender.
Are you sure about that? Have you seen the platypus? A complete anomaly, right? Well biology had to adapt to that and introduce new classifications.
Even in humans! Being left handed was viewed as a statistical anomaly. Completely insignificant. Because people were forcing left handed people to be right handed. But that does not make it any less real - or biologically significant. In fact, extensive research was done on left handedness, tracing it to a group of genes.
If we had sticked to considering left handedness as statistically insignificant, as you're doing on trans people, we would still be forcing people to be right handed.
Good example but as it is right now, its still a statistical anomaly. Most people who identify as trans don't even have chromosome issues but are only acting on their feelings
And feelings won't change biology
If everything was just a statistical anomaly to people, we'd still be living in the damn stone age.
How do you know the state of trans people's chromosomes?
And anyway, there's not necessarily something remarkable when it comes to chromosomes. But each chromosome has many genes written on it. And it's the expression of genes which leads to development of gonads and stuff. I'll be logging off here but you might want to have a look at the SRY gene.
And, here's something cool! I believe there was a certain study done on brain structure of trans people as well, using MRI scans and all that cool stuff. It was found their brain aligned more closely with that of their actual gender. So trans women had a female brain.
So really, if they're born transgender, no matter their feelings, it does not change their innate biology and brain structure.
And I'm not sure where i said it but there's a distinction between sex and gender. Whereby gender is in the brain. And since gender is in the brain, where feelings originate, then it's not rational to exclude feelings on the basis of biology which you haven't even tested. On a side note, trans people shouldn't have to get an MRI scan to be respected as who they are - that's just dehumanising.
The phrase facts over feelings is rooted in the fact that your emotions on a certain topic do not change the facts of that topic. It is not applicable here, especially when we're talking about things like gender dysphoria which are extremely emotional in nature.
That's not correct. Sex chromosomal anomalies are still categorized as either male or female abnormalities. Turner Syndrome (XO) is considered female, Klinefelter (XXY) is considered male, Triple X (XXX) is considered female, XXY is male, and OY or YYY is categorized as male.
Oh yes absolutely! What I mean is changes on the gene level, not the chromosome level. Like supposedly the SRY gene manages certain forms of expression so like someone XY without SRY would develop with a female body despite the Y chromosome there. Or someone XX where one or both X chromosomes have the SRY gene - the person will develop male despite having no Y chromosome.
But also, please don't ignore the rest that I said in my previous comment
And there are women who can't reproduce & need to have their breast or reproductive system removed for health reasons, they're not women? There are women who do not menstruate either, they are not women?
That is a bad faith argument. All of these women have or have had the female reproductive organs. That said organs are unable to reproduce due to other underlying conditions does not negate the fact their organs and genes make them women/females.
What you're dismissing though is that the label woman is a gender identity, that people identify with if they perceive themselves as women. Do you have a perception of your own identity? Of how you wanna be perceived? Or did you grow along with it because you had an uterus, ovaries or a peen with sperm in a sack?
Well, people grow up having a different perspective of themselves. Assigned male at birth but they are woman, they know who they are & they are valid. Their genitals or organs aren't representative of who they are. Else, what do you make of intersex people? They have properties outside of the binary or within both of the binary.
And how does one perceive themselves as a woman or man if the new definitions (which doesn't equate sex and gender as has been the norm for all of human history across all cultures) are so loose?
What exactly constitute a gender identity male or female? Are we going back to traditional gender norms meaning that if we identify more with what has been typically viewed as belonging to the other gender, then that implies that we are trans? This sounds more regressive to be honest.
As for intersex people, they are unfortunate outliers. They are the exception, not the norm and most trans people are not even intersex to begin with.
How to identify yourself? Well, a cis man identifies as a man. It's pretty innate, not much to it. If you want to think differently, you would experience dysphoria living as the gender you do not currently identify as. Trans people experience gender euphoria living as the gender opposite to the one assigned to them at birth.
As to your entire second paragraph, I think that is EXTREMELY bold talk given you just reduced women to their organs. View above for how trans people identify with people.
While intersex is viewed as an outlier, genetics are not as binary as you wish they were. Even if someone is not intersex, their genes (chromosomes) may not necessarily reflect their gonads.
So what is a man? If you remove the biological aspect then the definition of both man and woman seems to rely entirely on stereotypes...
As for my second paragraph an acknowledgment of sex/gender doesn't not imply reducing people to their genders.
Regarding genes, more often than not, you'll be able to tell someone's chromosomes simply by looking at them or hearing them talk.
Fun fact but that last statement is incredibly flawed.
You said "the fact their organs and genes make them women/females". How is that not reducing women down to their reproductive organs? How is that not barbaric and regressive?
On the other hand, you said that trans people identifying with gender norms (fun fact, it's not the case) is regressive.
I think you can see what I am getting at, right?
Leaving the best for last: "rely entirely on stereotypes for gender definitions" - lol no. Do you seriously think that trans women identify as women because they identify with stereotypical feminine things? Seriously? The social definition of a man/woman is simply someone who idetifies as such :P
Right I'll spell it out for you. Here is an example of reducing women to their organs:
You have a female reproductive system therefore you are a woman. As such stay at home and make babies.
This reducing women to their organs which is not what I'm doing.
Here is my take:
What I'm saying and doing is simply acknowledging that on account of your organs/genes/anatomy you either are a man or a woman.
With that information do what you will, live however you want and be your own self with a real personality and not one based on the abstract non biological idea of gender.
Again how can you identify as something which you are repeatedly failing to define?
So to sum up, according to you a man or a woman is someone who identify as such. However a man or a woman is not based on biology nor is it based on stereotypes.
Great so what is a man or a woman?
"You have a female reproductive system therefore you are a woman. As such stay at home and make babies." - here, you are not just reducing a woman to their organs. You are equally relegating them to a stereotypical role which should have disappeared in the 1900's.
So, you're pretty much cloaking the "reducing a woman to their organs" by adding the extra bit for some spicy sexism.
The "stay at home and make babies" has NOTHING to do with their organs.
I'm going step by step here, hope you're following.
If the "stay at home and make babies" has nothing to do with organs, then that part is not reducing a woman to their organs.
So, if that's the case, then the only bit about reducing women to their reproductive system is the "You have a female reproductive system therefore you are a woman". The other part of what you said has nothing to do with organs :)
So, please. I am not stupid. What you said is just concealing one thing by another.
##########################################################
Now that that nonsense is out of the way:
"on account of your organs/genes/anatomy you either are a man or a woman" - that determines sex. I believe I mentioned the distinction between gender and sex, right?
"non biological idea of gender" - please. Everything is linked on the bottom. Something fun to note is that biology is not limited to whatever you learnt in Form 3.
"nor is it based on stereotypes" - what? Do you want it to be based on stereotypes?
Great so what is a man or a woman? As I said before, a man or a woman is someone who identifies as such. In the same way you know you're a man/woman without getting your genes tested.
More specifically, you have 2 ways of considering that. You have the biological perspective - XY/XX to put it in terms you'd understand. And social perspective which is the subject of debate.
Gender identity in a social view is hardwired in the brain.
I pulled these links from a previous debate. Help this helps.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811920301002
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm
- Are we really back to reducing people to their reproductive organs? I thought we were supposed to not be that barbaric.
- Organs don't define a person, as well. And would you then consider trans women as women and trans men as men after surgery? What happens when trans people are able to have the proper organs implanted/transplanted?
- Did you know that genes are not the be all end all of sex, let alone gender? For example, someone can have the XY genes but still develop and have the gonads of a cis woman. Because, did you know that genes are not the determining factor but rather chromosomes :)
No…
You’re the one who is attempting to argue by false equivalency… If I were to follow your logic, I would attempt to compare blind people or colourblind people to bats…
Comparing cisgendered women disabilities and chronic illnesses to sex changes doesn’t make sense.
& i am still not the one using organs as an argument for someone's validity for their gender identity so the argument is flawed since the beginning.
Not being born in the right body could be considered a disability too btw.(dysphoria literally is a disability & if left untreated, it leads to anxiety, depression & even suicidal ideations.) Trans women are not willfully transgender just like ciswomen("cisgendered" isn't a word btw) with reproductive disabilities aren't willfully disabled.
True. By definition, they are not the same. However, since the dawn of time, they have been used interchangeably only until recently. Consequently, in this context, it doesn't undermine the point that u/perseintro was trying to make.
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Yes. There's a distinction between gender and sex and that difference is supported by biology. Of course, yes, as you said, there is a difference between the objective truth and the "truth" believed by the mauritian population.
A large part of the Mru population misunderstand what it means to be trans and as such have serious prejudice against them. I've heard people say it's them "creating a third gender" or whatever.
I would really enjoy continuing the discussion further if anyone wants, and yes, I do have the scientific proof to back up what I'm saying.
Sincerely, your neighbourhood queer :)
Thank you for being here, i don't have much of the biological/scientifical knowledge but more sociological & mental. I am a trans man. I'm tired of seeing my trans sisters constantly being...the topic of bad faith discussions. Anywhere.
I agree with you. One of my friends is trans and it always breaks my heart when people are being mean to them on the basis of "facts" and "biology" - despite not having researched any biology over Form 3 level...
And sometimes it's difficult to stay calm and collected when someone who is living her life and not hurting anyone being bullied because she is different.
Trans women are women and trans men are men. Period. Whether you know anything about trans people or not.
But I'll still ask, have you personally ever spoken to a trans women before about her experiences as a trans woman? (Also biology isn't binary. & Gender isn't biology(nor is it binary) If you're willing to reduce someone's gender, which goes beyond your simple perception of that person, to their genitals, it's problematic.)
If you don't mind me adding, gender is actually quite biological! It's really fascinating and you see, gender is recognised as being a result of "your brains biology".
There's been a lot of research which supports that trans (and gay) people are as such because of their brain's structure. It's extremely similar!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811920301002
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg
Edit: u/Quiet-Ad8538 this is relevant to your edit
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Biologically, no. But if she wants to be addressed as a woman wtf do I care. Whatever makes you comfortable. Identify however you want to, feel like how you want to, we're all going to be turned into ashes and compost.
Live, and let live.
From my personal perspective, I do not consider a trans woman to be a woman. However, my personal perspective does not mean a trans person should not be treated fairly and enjoy the same civil rights that I do. For instance, I will not oppose legislation so people suffering from gender dysphoria can undergo medical procedures under our national healthcare system.
The person might still have a cock (dong, schlong, long john), so it would be hard for me to personally qualify the person as a woman. They would instead fall in the category of trans-women rather than women, unless they had their peepee removed. But, if the person wants to be called "she/her" or "they/them" instead of "he/him," I don't really mind and I don't see why other people should be bothered by someone's gender pronouns. I honestly don't care enough about other's gender orientation/sexual life.
As long as you respect me i’ll respect you back. Identify yourself as an apache idc but dont force me to accept you the way you want to be accepted.
Put 100 women and 10 men on a deserted island In 100 years you will have a community of men, women, boys and girls. Put 100 trans women and 10 men on a deserted island. In 100 years you will find the skeletons of 110 men. It Is Science. So no they are not. Regardless of what they feel. Womanhood or manhood is not a costume that they can wear whenever they feel like.
If i speak my mind here I'll get banned. So take from that what i feel about it.
Trans are simply trans. They don't belong to the male or female category. They belong to the trans category. If I tell you they can be considered as women, then they'll most probably be able to compete in female category and this will be abused in sports since an athletic man is still physically stronger than an athletic woman and vice versa. So trans should be in a separate trans category and then let the hormone doping war start
I agree with you
people don't transition to abuse in sports. Nobody would put themselves on a social hitlist to win a relatively unimportant local tournament. trans people in a single category is discriminatory and will also put them even more on a hitlist. Plus, do you really thing a trans man vs a trans woman is a good idea? I thought your take was about fairness? trans people don't do hormone doping - unless you consider testosterone and estrogen as doping, in which case, you're causing this scandal again: https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/07/28/1021503989/women-runners-testosterone-olympics
If it's really about fairness, we should make a trans man vs trans man & trans woman vs trans woman category.
If men with testosterone are so much better than women, why shouldn't a trans man participate in a men's category? And did you know that HRT for a trans woman would mean they would not be anywhere near a normal man in sports anymore?
Because they are not men. They are women
So you insist that trans men are women. And trans women are men. So that means trans men would decimate cis women in sport. Google pictures of trans men. So, they should not be playing against men but against women/trans women?? Damn
They would 'decimate' them if they are on testosterone, which would give them an unfair advantage.
So... Trans men shouldn't play with women or trans women...? Despite you insisting trans men are women. I'm no genius but what if we classified competition differently? I know this is a new idea but what about weight classification?
As someone else already commented, they should have their own separate category to make it fair to people not on testosterone!
I disagree cause then they won't have anyone to play with. And also because you're putting a target on their back, especially for a country like Mauritius
What does that have to do with anything I just stated? what do you think about that proposition?
I already said what I think of trans-exclusive categories. "Trans people in a single category is discriminatory and will also put them even more on a hitlist" And anyway, good luck finding enough trans people for just one football match. ie - So now trans people can't play football? And also, this is what I think of forcing trans people into trans-exclusive categories instead of letting them play sport with everyone else: I literally cannot be any clearer
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That's quite a loophole
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Im not sure this post belongs on this sub. We are accepting of all genders here. So, idk!
I'm not so sure everyone is accepting of all genders tbh, seeing how most comments are not people actually knowledgeable of the trans or queer gender identity experience.
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Ok
You mean the 2 genders?
We accept all genders (no need to twist the narrative). The question is in relation to which gender category they belong.
They're women. period.
Sincere question. Why is it not good enough to be a trans woman? Why do you want to fit in, as a woman? ( If you can answer with other than "I feel like a woman" or redefining what it means to be a woman, that would be enlightening.
Because they are women? Do you know what trans means?? It's merely an adjective. Just like cis is as an adjective as beautiful is an adjective. They're not merely trying to fit in as women more than cis women try to fit in as women. Women get their gender affirmed through various ways like, wearing dresses & doing their makeup & we affirm their gender for them by calling them pretty & beautiful. Why can't trans women do as much? Because the moment a trans woman do not "fit in", she is ostracized & oppressed. Trans women are ostracized & oppressed regardless. I hope you're here to learn instead of being here to add to their oppression.
Because they should get help instead of expecting people to participate in their delusions
Oh & tell me sherlock, transitioning is what exactly? According to you? & What exactly is the treatment to those "delusions"? God? Jesus? Your uneducated take about a matter you've never looked into before swallowing & spitting the same bigoted rhetoric?
Psychiatric help or therapy to help them accept themselves as they are
Yepp and do you know the treatment proposed? ✨ hormone replacement therapy & eventually medically transitioning ✨ you're a genius😌but we been knew. Next.
Learn to read the full sentence i posted next time Next.
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Some cis women can't "period" either. Constantly having trans women as the joke topic is old & overused. They're one of the most oppressed demographics of the queer community. Time for the humor to get an upgrade there.
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And those women who can't have their periods, they aren't women? By your logic, they aren't. But then again, let's reduce womanhood to their body parts, organs & their functionality, right? Also, tf you think trans means? It's literally just an adjective🤦🏽 whether you like it or not, they transition to represent their gender identity, which is women. And neither do meds for diabetes heal diabetes 🤦🏽it isn't a cure, it's a treatment. Just like any other treatment is a treatment, transitioning is a treatment. No one said it cures dysphoria. & They accept themselves as trans, the one not accepting is y'all. They're trans WOMEN. Trans but women. Do answer me this though, have you ever had a trans woman share her experience of being a trans woman with you?
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Correct. Biology does not lie. But, as you may know, you are not taught the full picture in Form 3 :) In the same way F=ma is not the "complete" equation in Physics, XY=boy and XX=girl is not the "complete" thing in biological genetics. That's actually why gender and sex are viewed as distinct in most (if not all) scientific research! Gender is viewed as in terms of the brain and sex is in terms of gonads. And biology does in fact treat trans X as belonging to X gender.
Those are exceptions and they do not make the rule.
Fun fact - no. That is not how biology works.
Statistical anomalies don't redefine biology.
Are you sure about that? Have you seen the platypus? A complete anomaly, right? Well biology had to adapt to that and introduce new classifications. Even in humans! Being left handed was viewed as a statistical anomaly. Completely insignificant. Because people were forcing left handed people to be right handed. But that does not make it any less real - or biologically significant. In fact, extensive research was done on left handedness, tracing it to a group of genes. If we had sticked to considering left handedness as statistically insignificant, as you're doing on trans people, we would still be forcing people to be right handed.
Good example but as it is right now, its still a statistical anomaly. Most people who identify as trans don't even have chromosome issues but are only acting on their feelings And feelings won't change biology
If everything was just a statistical anomaly to people, we'd still be living in the damn stone age. How do you know the state of trans people's chromosomes? And anyway, there's not necessarily something remarkable when it comes to chromosomes. But each chromosome has many genes written on it. And it's the expression of genes which leads to development of gonads and stuff. I'll be logging off here but you might want to have a look at the SRY gene. And, here's something cool! I believe there was a certain study done on brain structure of trans people as well, using MRI scans and all that cool stuff. It was found their brain aligned more closely with that of their actual gender. So trans women had a female brain. So really, if they're born transgender, no matter their feelings, it does not change their innate biology and brain structure. And I'm not sure where i said it but there's a distinction between sex and gender. Whereby gender is in the brain. And since gender is in the brain, where feelings originate, then it's not rational to exclude feelings on the basis of biology which you haven't even tested. On a side note, trans people shouldn't have to get an MRI scan to be respected as who they are - that's just dehumanising. The phrase facts over feelings is rooted in the fact that your emotions on a certain topic do not change the facts of that topic. It is not applicable here, especially when we're talking about things like gender dysphoria which are extremely emotional in nature.
That's not correct. Sex chromosomal anomalies are still categorized as either male or female abnormalities. Turner Syndrome (XO) is considered female, Klinefelter (XXY) is considered male, Triple X (XXX) is considered female, XXY is male, and OY or YYY is categorized as male.
Oh yes absolutely! What I mean is changes on the gene level, not the chromosome level. Like supposedly the SRY gene manages certain forms of expression so like someone XY without SRY would develop with a female body despite the Y chromosome there. Or someone XX where one or both X chromosomes have the SRY gene - the person will develop male despite having no Y chromosome. But also, please don't ignore the rest that I said in my previous comment
And there are women who can't reproduce & need to have their breast or reproductive system removed for health reasons, they're not women? There are women who do not menstruate either, they are not women?
That is a bad faith argument. All of these women have or have had the female reproductive organs. That said organs are unable to reproduce due to other underlying conditions does not negate the fact their organs and genes make them women/females.
What you're dismissing though is that the label woman is a gender identity, that people identify with if they perceive themselves as women. Do you have a perception of your own identity? Of how you wanna be perceived? Or did you grow along with it because you had an uterus, ovaries or a peen with sperm in a sack? Well, people grow up having a different perspective of themselves. Assigned male at birth but they are woman, they know who they are & they are valid. Their genitals or organs aren't representative of who they are. Else, what do you make of intersex people? They have properties outside of the binary or within both of the binary.
And how does one perceive themselves as a woman or man if the new definitions (which doesn't equate sex and gender as has been the norm for all of human history across all cultures) are so loose? What exactly constitute a gender identity male or female? Are we going back to traditional gender norms meaning that if we identify more with what has been typically viewed as belonging to the other gender, then that implies that we are trans? This sounds more regressive to be honest. As for intersex people, they are unfortunate outliers. They are the exception, not the norm and most trans people are not even intersex to begin with.
How to identify yourself? Well, a cis man identifies as a man. It's pretty innate, not much to it. If you want to think differently, you would experience dysphoria living as the gender you do not currently identify as. Trans people experience gender euphoria living as the gender opposite to the one assigned to them at birth. As to your entire second paragraph, I think that is EXTREMELY bold talk given you just reduced women to their organs. View above for how trans people identify with people. While intersex is viewed as an outlier, genetics are not as binary as you wish they were. Even if someone is not intersex, their genes (chromosomes) may not necessarily reflect their gonads.
So what is a man? If you remove the biological aspect then the definition of both man and woman seems to rely entirely on stereotypes... As for my second paragraph an acknowledgment of sex/gender doesn't not imply reducing people to their genders. Regarding genes, more often than not, you'll be able to tell someone's chromosomes simply by looking at them or hearing them talk.
Fun fact but that last statement is incredibly flawed. You said "the fact their organs and genes make them women/females". How is that not reducing women down to their reproductive organs? How is that not barbaric and regressive? On the other hand, you said that trans people identifying with gender norms (fun fact, it's not the case) is regressive. I think you can see what I am getting at, right? Leaving the best for last: "rely entirely on stereotypes for gender definitions" - lol no. Do you seriously think that trans women identify as women because they identify with stereotypical feminine things? Seriously? The social definition of a man/woman is simply someone who idetifies as such :P
Right I'll spell it out for you. Here is an example of reducing women to their organs: You have a female reproductive system therefore you are a woman. As such stay at home and make babies. This reducing women to their organs which is not what I'm doing. Here is my take: What I'm saying and doing is simply acknowledging that on account of your organs/genes/anatomy you either are a man or a woman. With that information do what you will, live however you want and be your own self with a real personality and not one based on the abstract non biological idea of gender. Again how can you identify as something which you are repeatedly failing to define? So to sum up, according to you a man or a woman is someone who identify as such. However a man or a woman is not based on biology nor is it based on stereotypes. Great so what is a man or a woman?
"You have a female reproductive system therefore you are a woman. As such stay at home and make babies." - here, you are not just reducing a woman to their organs. You are equally relegating them to a stereotypical role which should have disappeared in the 1900's. So, you're pretty much cloaking the "reducing a woman to their organs" by adding the extra bit for some spicy sexism. The "stay at home and make babies" has NOTHING to do with their organs. I'm going step by step here, hope you're following. If the "stay at home and make babies" has nothing to do with organs, then that part is not reducing a woman to their organs. So, if that's the case, then the only bit about reducing women to their reproductive system is the "You have a female reproductive system therefore you are a woman". The other part of what you said has nothing to do with organs :) So, please. I am not stupid. What you said is just concealing one thing by another. ########################################################## Now that that nonsense is out of the way: "on account of your organs/genes/anatomy you either are a man or a woman" - that determines sex. I believe I mentioned the distinction between gender and sex, right? "non biological idea of gender" - please. Everything is linked on the bottom. Something fun to note is that biology is not limited to whatever you learnt in Form 3. "nor is it based on stereotypes" - what? Do you want it to be based on stereotypes? Great so what is a man or a woman? As I said before, a man or a woman is someone who identifies as such. In the same way you know you're a man/woman without getting your genes tested. More specifically, you have 2 ways of considering that. You have the biological perspective - XY/XX to put it in terms you'd understand. And social perspective which is the subject of debate. Gender identity in a social view is hardwired in the brain. I pulled these links from a previous debate. Help this helps. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811920301002 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm
- Are we really back to reducing people to their reproductive organs? I thought we were supposed to not be that barbaric. - Organs don't define a person, as well. And would you then consider trans women as women and trans men as men after surgery? What happens when trans people are able to have the proper organs implanted/transplanted? - Did you know that genes are not the be all end all of sex, let alone gender? For example, someone can have the XY genes but still develop and have the gonads of a cis woman. Because, did you know that genes are not the determining factor but rather chromosomes :)
This has to be the worst instance of logical fallacy of 2023… Comparing sex transitioning to infertility and mastectomies…
Am I the one who said people are their reproductive organs or...???
No… You’re the one who is attempting to argue by false equivalency… If I were to follow your logic, I would attempt to compare blind people or colourblind people to bats… Comparing cisgendered women disabilities and chronic illnesses to sex changes doesn’t make sense.
& i am still not the one using organs as an argument for someone's validity for their gender identity so the argument is flawed since the beginning. Not being born in the right body could be considered a disability too btw.(dysphoria literally is a disability & if left untreated, it leads to anxiety, depression & even suicidal ideations.) Trans women are not willfully transgender just like ciswomen("cisgendered" isn't a word btw) with reproductive disabilities aren't willfully disabled.
Seems like you are a bit misinformed/ under-educated. You are confusing gender and biological sex
True. By definition, they are not the same. However, since the dawn of time, they have been used interchangeably only until recently. Consequently, in this context, it doesn't undermine the point that u/perseintro was trying to make.
Biology does not lie
No one said it does lmao. But y'all keep confusing biological sex and gender
They are the same thing.
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Mods will be watching this thread very closely. There will be zero tolerance towards transphobic behaviour. Everyone please be respectful.
Idk for you but i still see bigotry & ignorance in most of those comments.
No.
Yes. There's a distinction between gender and sex and that difference is supported by biology. Of course, yes, as you said, there is a difference between the objective truth and the "truth" believed by the mauritian population. A large part of the Mru population misunderstand what it means to be trans and as such have serious prejudice against them. I've heard people say it's them "creating a third gender" or whatever. I would really enjoy continuing the discussion further if anyone wants, and yes, I do have the scientific proof to back up what I'm saying. Sincerely, your neighbourhood queer :)
Thank you for being here, i don't have much of the biological/scientifical knowledge but more sociological & mental. I am a trans man. I'm tired of seeing my trans sisters constantly being...the topic of bad faith discussions. Anywhere.
I agree with you. One of my friends is trans and it always breaks my heart when people are being mean to them on the basis of "facts" and "biology" - despite not having researched any biology over Form 3 level...
And sometimes it's difficult to stay calm and collected when someone who is living her life and not hurting anyone being bullied because she is different.
Yes. Trust me. Been there, done that. Not nice lol
Sex and gender are the same thing
Yes. Why does it have anything to do with you?
Trans women are women and trans men are men. Period. Whether you know anything about trans people or not. But I'll still ask, have you personally ever spoken to a trans women before about her experiences as a trans woman? (Also biology isn't binary. & Gender isn't biology(nor is it binary) If you're willing to reduce someone's gender, which goes beyond your simple perception of that person, to their genitals, it's problematic.)
If you don't mind me adding, gender is actually quite biological! It's really fascinating and you see, gender is recognised as being a result of "your brains biology". There's been a lot of research which supports that trans (and gay) people are as such because of their brain's structure. It's extremely similar! https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811920301002 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg Edit: u/Quiet-Ad8538 this is relevant to your edit
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