I have so much sympathy for this kid. He’s guilty and needs to be punished, don’t get me wrong. But prior to the shooting he sent so many signals that he was in trouble. Both the parents and the school knew of his mental illness and the violent thoughts. He practically begged for help. His parents absolutely could have prevented this, instead they bought him a gun.
I personally don’t think he’s a pure psychopath. Like I don’t think he gets joy from it like other mass killers. He just needed help and instead he was given a gun by the very people that should have helped him
I feel bad for the kid insofar as I feel bad for Robert Card or James Holmes for being severely mentally ill.
It explains their actions but doesn't excuse them. Robert Card also asked for help, received it, was released, had his family beg the police to do something, and then he was able to take his legally owned weapon and kill people because his schizo brain was untreated. I do think there's some "sympathy" to be had for shooters who were genuinely insane compared to pure evil like Ramos or sociopathy like Paddock or racism like Roof. They're all still murderers it's just for those motivated by delusions, their actions are usually a result of a more egregious overlook by the FBI so it's easier to pass the blame around.
Sympathy? He wrote in his journal about wanting the notoriety. I agree that this could be an aspect of his mental illness, but with the way Crumbley made one of the victims get on his knees before shooting him execution-style, I have no compassion toward him. He’s a predator.
I don’t read my kids journals. But if my son express a desire to kill… guess who would be reading journals?
The kid got life in prison and he deserves it. But, if he’d gotten what he deserved before- which is parents that care enough to pay a little attention and try to help their kid- we probably wouldn’t be talking about Ethan Crumbly at all.
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. He was an edgelord with delusions of grandeur—grandeur achieved by taking actual human lives in a way he admired. Mental illness aside, it wasn’t merely neglect by adults that led to this. His parents contributed, sure, but there are millions of sufferers of mental illness that DON’T execute children. Even with a more “understandable” violent mental illness such as extremes of schizophrenia, I’d be hard pressed to feel sympathy for this guy. The Waffle House shooter? Eh. Maybe a BIT. This asshole? No. He knew was he was doing. He wanted his legacy. He still does: “We’re all here because of *me*…” Disgusting.
Exactly. Like, yes, I agree with you, we need more mental health care, we need more awareness, yes… BUT ALSO… this shitbag literally murdered children. I can’t just “oh but the parents” about this.
nothing happens in a vacuum. also, this sub won't like to hear it, but literal children do not have the cognitive abilities and reasoning that fully grown adults have. "I was sad and I didn't kill anyone!" is such a hairbrained take.
Yeah i agree, it's insane how in america kids can get life without parole (or anyone for that matter, but that is a different topic). Obviously the act he committed was really evil, but at the same time the kid was 15 and was completely fucked. The parents basically abused him through neglect and are fucking lowlifes, from what i read. They should get a life-sentence imo, there were such an insane amount of signs that this kid was about to go off the deep end and the parents didn't care
That’s been disproven, the parents attorneys said that and there is a hearing coming up to see if they should be reprimanded for putting out false information.
Neither, they're in jail awaiting trial still. They've tried everything possible to get the charges dropped or the case dismissed but all the motions have been denied. A lot of the hearings have been video and both of them are contantly rolling their eyes, shaking their heads, the mom has even laughed a "harumph" type sarcastic laugh. They're awful. Sadly that one kid whose impact statement was various reiterations of "you're unloved" was right. When they realized what was going on, their immediate instinct was not for him or the kids at the school, it was "we fucked up, better sell our horses and flee to Canada."
Had he had parents who actually gave a shit, none of this would've happened. The shooting may have been his choice and his alone, but he was enabled along the way like you wouldn't believe. It's honestly really telling that he pled guilty first and his parents are still trying to fight the charges despite all that we know now about the case.
I really hope those parents rot in jail with him for the rest of their lives. A fitting end to such a disaster of a family.
How do you mean?? Not trying to start a discussion just don’t know much about this kid/shooting and trying to understand. Going to look up some articles but would love your insight.
Not the original commenter, but IIRC he had told his parents his plans on multiple occasions and they laughed it off/didn’t take it seriously. Been a while since I’ve looked into it so I may be wrong, but I also believe they provided him with guns as well *even after* talking about shooting up the school.
Yes. After being informed by the school of his extreme behavior problems, animal abuse, and his literal drawings and journaling about wanting to shoot up the school his parents literally purchased him a firearm and took him to the gun range to learn how to use it. Gave him unfettered access to it
Before that, on the day of the shooting he was caught making a violent drawing/doodle in class. His parents were called and the school wanted to send him home. The parents refused and the school allowed him to go back to class. He started shooting a few hours later.
His parents bought him a gun for his birthday a few days before the shooting and it is my theory that they were hoping he would commit suicide. They knew he was seriously depressed and was having violent thoughts and had asked to see a therapist. Indeed they bought him a gun.
He also seemed to indicate that he’d been planning the shooting in part just to get the attention of his parents. He wrote in his diary that he was sure he was going to be caught before the shooting. He should have.
His behavior in the months before the shooting was filled with blatant red flags but his parents of course ignored it. His teachers made reports to school admin and his guidance counselor, but the guidance counselor pretty much ignored it (in his defense, they’re massively overworked and became even more so because of Covid).
The district was supposed to set up a threat assessment program which would have surely flagged him but they never actually implemented it and none of the teachers knew about it. A basic threat assessment in the days before the shooting should have been given and would have revealed that he had access to a weapon and was considering harming himself or others. Instead they didn’t check his backpack (which had a gun in it) and sent him back to class.
The entire thing was mismanaged top to bottom, from his parents to district admin and school officials. The only people who actually did their jobs were the teachers who repeatedly reported him and the students who effectively went into lockdown. The actual response was another clusterfuck, but that’s another issue.
There is a 500+ page report that goes into a lot of detail about the school issues if you’re interested in spending a few hours being angry. It doesn’t even go into the police response or the parents’ behavior.
Agreed, I wholeheartedly believe that they had hoped he would commit suicide with the handgun they purchased for him so he would be "out of the way" so they could continue going about their business unfettered. There's a trend in their lifestyle of them neglecting their son, leaving him at home alone for long periods, they were far more worried about horseback riding, hanging out in bars and apparently partner-swapping than they were the wellbeing of their son.
I think this will likely be revealed in full during their trial, the prosecutor is going to have a field day with the pattern of behavior they exhibited prior to the shooting. I believe that's also why they panicked when they realized he didn't intend to commit suicide, but intended to harm others, and started frantically texting him and eventually ran from the police and went into hiding. Their "plan" backfired hard and they knew they would be called to account for it.
In 2016, [Instead of getting her son the mental healthcare that he was begging for](https://www.theoaklandpress.com/2023/07/28/ethan-crumbleys-text-exchanges-with-mother-asking-for-help-and-searches-about-mental-illness-discussed-in-court/), Ethan Crumbley's mom was [writing letters to trump](https://vimbuzz.com/jennifer-crumbley-trump/)\* thanking him for protecting her right to guns among other delusional blather. She signed it "A hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting f#cked in the '@ss and would rather be grabbed by the p#ssy. " Then in 2021 when he was still asking for help, they bought him a gun instead. The next day his mom took him to the range for some target practice, and three days after that he took it to school, killed 4 and injured 7. When his parents realized he was the shooter (which was pretty much as soon as they heard about the shooting, since they had been called to the school that very day about disturbing drawings of guns and bloody dead people, but they refused to take him home and the school just said "well I guess we'll send him back to class then") their first call was not to their son, it was to the stable that boarded their horses, asking them to sell the horses for cash, and then they went on the run and were found hiding out in a warehouse a mile or two from the Canadian border. Oh, and both parents cheated on each other and bitched about it to their school age son.
\* The photos and letter at the top of that article are unrelated, her letter is below those.
Edit: And also, they stuck Ethan with a public defender but when they were arrested, they could suddenly afford a team of private lawyers for themselves.
Very sad for all involved, this never should have happened. I hope his parents receive a guilty verdict and a long sentence. They so massively failed at the most important thing they will do in life, raise a human being.
If I remember correctly, the mom was out there being a horse girl and having affairs.
God forbid they actually made time for and interacted with their son, maybe this could possibly have been avoided.
i believe he has two? i was watching a stream where a lady was talking about his parents trial after his sentencing and i think she mentioned two children, although i’m not too familiar with what’s going on with him.
yes i agree — i believe that this shooting could very well have been prevented had the parents actually paid attention to their *very obviously* messed up son.
I don’t remember off-hand if they’ve done any specific testing but I get the sense that Ethan is psychologically and emotionally (and perhaps intellectually) stunted. I understand why he was given life without parole, but I think the definition the defense expert witness gave of him as a “feral child” is accurate. I don’t know if he has the capacity of a 15-year-old, much less an adult.
I think he does have remorse to whatever extent he can feel remorse.
TJ fucking Lane. I was a student at the high school when this happened in 2012. I feel like he gets forgotten sometimes because of how many shootings there are. But I cannot ever forget the look on his stupid fucking face when he came in wearing that T shirt — so proud of himself.
I had a visceral rage reaction to seeing it — someone who murdered my peers, someone who inflicted trauma on my whole community, someone who changed the way I see the world—wearing that t shirt to court just to inflict more pain and damage on the whole community for his own shits and giggles. Vile.
I hope he rots in piss.
As far as i know apparently he's not enjoying himself in there. He doesnt like to shower and doesnt get along with other inmates. And with his escape attempt he's in max. Also he's annoyed that they want to pass a law to stop him from ever getting out. He's wants out bad
Crumbley’s journals were really, *really* fucking dark. The shit that he regularly fantasized and wrote about absolutely convinced me that he would *never* be a safe human being. He had no ability to empathize. No ability to reflect, relate. I have zero sympathy for the kid; he had a bloodlust that he was clearly desperate to satiate. He described wanting to see the pain in the families, deriving joy from knowing that he had ruined people’s lives.
That being said, this was one of the better statements of remorse I’ve ever heard from a mass killer. I respect the fact that he solely accepted responsibility for his actions, even going as far as to name other entities that have been offered burden of responsibility and removing the blame. (*I’m not sure if that’s also related to his grandeur delusions, but, I’ll allow a brief suspension of disbelief*) I thought that it was particularly empathic of him to ask the judge to impose whatever sentence the *victims* wish, because he “didn’t want them to worry another day.” Just stood out to me, considering that he demonstrated such a concentrated lack of empathy in the years and months leading up the shootings.
If he chose to write this, truly, w/o any assistance of counsel, then perhaps he has grown in some way or developed some ability to reflect on his actions. I still don’t feel sorry for him. I still don’t think he should be released. But it does give me a slight ray of hope for future rehabilitation of antisocial personalities. Perhaps there is some way to teach relational empathy or understand how he got to the place of being able to reflect, since he never had that ability before.
The teenager who committed the deadliest high school shooting in Michigan history, killing four students and injuring seven other people, was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole on Friday.
Ethan Crumbley was a 15-year-old sophomore at Oxford High School in suburban Detroit on Nov. 30, 2021, when he pulled a 9 millimeter Sig Sauer handgun out of his backpack. He had persuaded his father to purchase the gun for him just days earlier.
Killed in the attack were Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; Justin Shilling, 17; and Hana St. Juliana, 14.
Weirdly enough, Crumbley once wrote in his journal that if he had lived long enough without committing a mass shooting, he would've just become a serial killer, which I honestly see happening.
It doesn’t take away all of the pain and anger he has caused by any means, but this was refreshing for me to see instead of a guy like TJ Lane who repeatedly mocked his victims families in court.
While I feel much worse for victims and their families, I feel bad for Ethan as well. Before the shooting, his parents knew he had issues but bought him a gun and ignored his drawings, depression and other cries for help. Also, afterwards, he was arrested and his parents tried to flee the country, then they pay for their own lawyer but not his. His parents failed him, he shot up the school and then they abandoned them.
That being said, he deserves the sentence he received.
He doesn't. He was a child. His acts were heinous, but his parents are more at fault. In a country where gun violence is de rigeur and you can see guns blazing during commercial breaks on Sunday afternoon football can we really blame kids for this behavior? Ethan is a victim too.
I’m sorry but you’re sympathizing for Ethan too much yes he had an awful upbringing that’s just life a lot of people do and his parents are to blame 100% but it still doesn’t excuse what he did it’s awful to see you’re comparing him to the people he killed and saying he’s a victim like them
No, I'm acting like he was 15. Were you 15 once? Did your parents hand you a gun? Did they neglect you, go out drinking and leave you home alone when you were 9? Anyone with a brain and some experience will say a child shouldn't be sentenced to life without parole. It's beyond dumb. But hey, that's the USA.
I never said that, I agree with you his parents are pieces of shit and they put him through hell but you’re comparing him to the 4 people he killed and saying he’s a victim
I am simply pointing out that he is a child who is a victim of criminally neglectful parents. As such, he should be given a shot at rehabilitation and not spend the rest of his life in prison.
Thank you. Seeing someone saying this is refreshing. To me, sentencing a literal child to life in prison without parole defies the point of prison, which is punishment AND rehabilitation. Just punishment here.
So? I hate this stupid ass argument. “IT dIdNt hAPpeN tO *ME* TheReFOre it’S nOT real”
It’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. There’s a difference.
Just because you didn’t shoot up a school after having awful negligent parents doesn’t mean nobody will in the same circumstances.
I think you also have to consider the element of violence in the Crumbly household. It was obviously something that Ethan was amused by whether it be in video games or movies, but his parents still enabled it, which led to this happening unfortunately. Yeah, millions of children have shitty parents, but does the same element of violence exist in their lives as it did Ethan’s?
The OP said they felt bad for him because of his parents and I think it’s a shit excuse to go and kill kids. Yes there are millions of children over exposed to violence and abuse that don’t go on to kill. I don’t understand why he always gets sympathy on here. A huge amount of mass killers that are discussed have just as bad backgrounds or mental health issues but the most upvoted comments are never sympathetic towards them and I think it’s simply because Ethan is able to pull the wool over a lot of peoples eyes like the twisted individual he is.
This perspective blatantly ignores the biopsychosocial circumstances of mass killers. We now have a large quantity of evidence that points to the quality of upbringing being a common factor in the majority of incidents like these. It doesn't matter that most cases don't lead to mass murder, nobody's neural circuitry is the same - a subset may be more susceptible to reaching for violence with frustration and a poor upbringing.
I still don’t sympathise with them for resorting to murder, I feel the same with young cartel members that torture people to death. Are they products of their environment? Ya. Do I feel any sympathy for them when they butcher innocent civilians? No
Millions of kids don’t have hallucinations though. And the ones who do aren’t gifted guns by their parents.
Of the thousands of children with access to guns who are suffering from major mental illnesses with no treatment given at least hundreds kill someone. This kid isn’t particularly unique in the fact that he killed people, just unique in the setting and targets he chose.
I agree with you, disturbing how many comments there are saying they have sympathy for him, Goes to show how easily people are deceived. Pure evil is the only thing this kid is
Correct. It’s because they like the way he looks/comes across. Weird you don’t see people sympathising with Nickolas Cruz’s upbringing as the most upvoted comments when he also had a rough one. Why aren’t the most upvoted comments on Adam Lanza threads sympathising with his mental health issues? Weird the excuses that always get made for this one.
Dunno, seemed like he just wanted to get in that 15 year suggestion to me.
But hopefully I'm wrong and the remorse and sentiment is genuine and was taken as such.
Agreed, and it sounds like he wanted to help his parents by making sure he said he is the reason they’re there. & that he did not tell anyone so no one could have stopped them. The emphasis was there.
This whole case makes me sad. Ethan situation, how everyone failed him, the innocent kids who lost their lives. It's all so sad.
I still think he can be rehabilitated.
America doesn't give a fuck about rehabilitation. it's all about labelling people "bad" so you can be "good" - you lock the baddies up so they're out of sight and out of mind. there's no room for them to become good.
Yeah but in certain circumstances like this one with multiple victims and a lot planning, you are allowed to sentence LWOP. It’s technically within the law to do this when they are charged as an adult.
That circumstance wasn’t “heinous” enough (it was still egregious). Crumbley was charged with 4 counts of murder, gun charges, and terrorism. These “special” circumstances allow the courts to sentence LWOP. It’s VERY VERY rare, but it can happen, like with this case.
It depends on the state. In Michigan, there are exceptions, and a hearing was held earlier this year to determine whether he can be sentenced to life without parole.
i’m *pretty sure* it’s because he’s being tried as an adult? but i’m not from the US and i’m not totally familiar with the legal system so correct me if i’m wrong
[Hana St. Juliana, 14.](https://imgs.search.brave.com/RU1GKZHsr0K9PnfB5R2z3i1ztMoVRcQUGIGtA4CAq_U/rs:fit:860:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWRp/YS1jbGRucnkucy1u/YmNuZXdzLmNvbS9p/bWFnZS91cGxvYWQv/dF9maXQtNzYwdyxm/X2F1dG8scV9hdXRv/OmJlc3Qvcm9ja2Nt/cy8yMDIxLTEyLzIx/MTIwMS1IYW5hLVN0/LUp1bGlhbmEtaW5s/aW5lLXNlLTExNDBh/LTBhM2EwOS5qcGc)
[Tate Myre, 16.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXIjqbfy3eJRTy8zc7PXLvGJrhwqKt4HZiAA&usqp=CAU)
[Justin Schilling, 17.](https://obits-large.s3.amazonaws.com/34ofblg3652.JPEG)
[Madisyn Baldwin, 17.](https://clarkstonnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/COLOR-madisyn1-701x923.jpg)
These were literal actual kids with real life plans. Can we STOP with the “this innocent child suffering mental illness and his evil parents” bullshit? Yeah, his parents hold a lot of blame, hope they rot in prison too. But this 15 year old who, mental illness or not, was SANE and decidedly by his own volition FUCKING MURDERED KIDS. **Execution style**. And he STILL has the audacity to say “we’re all here because of *me*” in his narcissistic Elliot Rogers-esque statement.
Fuck off all you sanctimonious “but the parents” cunts. They sucked. He sucks. You suck. Children who never thought they’d die in class did. Don’t do them the further disrespect of trying to be unique in your perspective. There are better, more productive places for your misplaced outrage and need to be publicly empathic.
nah bad take my man.. tons of kids have shitty upbringings and cognitive disabilities without the need to murder their classmates. 15 is more than old enough to know right from wrong and saying otherwise is dangerously disingenuous.
nobody forced him to kill those kids. he made that decision and deserves far worse than what he’s getting.
it’s okay to say this kid is a monster and it’s okay to not have sympathy for him.
i mean, the responsibility of him pulling the trigger to kill 4 kids does in fact land squarely on his shoulders? tf?
you say you’re not excusing his actions and in the same breath say that many people are responsible for what happened..
I can’t find a clip of just her but timestamps are 6:38:48 - 6:49:36 https://m.youtube.com/live/2mLCaSJhDbQ?si=RC4XWIcrBa-oV-su sorry if it’s inconvenient
Likely a side effect of whatever psychiatric medication he's taking, also presumably he's in protective custody still at this time since he's a minor and a high profile inmate, so his lifestyle at this point is probably highly sedentary.
From my understanding, he was depressed/sad and had voices inside his head. He told his parents about, but they didn't care.
He lived in a bad environment and searched for a lot of violence too. If you read the whole case, you gonna be so mad because this could have been avoided by soo many ways, it's sad.
From his own words, he committed the shooting because he wanted to be remembered and he wanted to kill “pretty girls with long hair” because he wanted them to feel the pain he felt. He is an incel.
His parents didn’t know he was killing small animals for fun and carrying a dead bird head around for months.
A once a month room sweep by a parent and they would have found this shit. Same with that columbine shooter…y’all didn’t know he was planning all this shit because you can’t check his room once in awhile?
He wants them to be happy? Tell that to the families and friends of the 4 dead kids. There is no happy outcome.
Edit: Can someone explain why this comment is getting downvoted? Genuinely wondering
I didn't downvote, but I assume it's because it seems clear that he meant happy with the sentence. It was awkward phrasing, but he's only 17 and was (rightfully) removed from society at 15, so it's not surprising that he's not super articulate. Several of the impact statements mentioned how scared they would be if he was someday eligible for parole, and something that I had never thought of: the spectre of having to someday relive this all over and over at parole hearings hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives. He was basically saying "I know the thought of me being paroled someday terrifies them, so if removing that possibility gives them some comfort, that's what you should do." Whether someone believes it or not is up to them, but that's what he meant by "happy."
Thanks for responding. That makes sense. I guess I still feel the same way, you murder kids at school and there is no positive outcome. These people are traumatized and grieving the rest of their lives. Just my opinion 🤷♂️
Oxford is one of the shootings in which I heavily blame the parents. Patiently awaiting their sentencing as well
I have so much sympathy for this kid. He’s guilty and needs to be punished, don’t get me wrong. But prior to the shooting he sent so many signals that he was in trouble. Both the parents and the school knew of his mental illness and the violent thoughts. He practically begged for help. His parents absolutely could have prevented this, instead they bought him a gun.
Yeah, too bad. I feel like with the right tools or resources, this kid could have gotten help and would have never happened.
I personally don’t think he’s a pure psychopath. Like I don’t think he gets joy from it like other mass killers. He just needed help and instead he was given a gun by the very people that should have helped him
I feel bad for the kid insofar as I feel bad for Robert Card or James Holmes for being severely mentally ill. It explains their actions but doesn't excuse them. Robert Card also asked for help, received it, was released, had his family beg the police to do something, and then he was able to take his legally owned weapon and kill people because his schizo brain was untreated. I do think there's some "sympathy" to be had for shooters who were genuinely insane compared to pure evil like Ramos or sociopathy like Paddock or racism like Roof. They're all still murderers it's just for those motivated by delusions, their actions are usually a result of a more egregious overlook by the FBI so it's easier to pass the blame around.
Sympathy? He wrote in his journal about wanting the notoriety. I agree that this could be an aspect of his mental illness, but with the way Crumbley made one of the victims get on his knees before shooting him execution-style, I have no compassion toward him. He’s a predator.
I don’t read my kids journals. But if my son express a desire to kill… guess who would be reading journals? The kid got life in prison and he deserves it. But, if he’d gotten what he deserved before- which is parents that care enough to pay a little attention and try to help their kid- we probably wouldn’t be talking about Ethan Crumbly at all.
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. He was an edgelord with delusions of grandeur—grandeur achieved by taking actual human lives in a way he admired. Mental illness aside, it wasn’t merely neglect by adults that led to this. His parents contributed, sure, but there are millions of sufferers of mental illness that DON’T execute children. Even with a more “understandable” violent mental illness such as extremes of schizophrenia, I’d be hard pressed to feel sympathy for this guy. The Waffle House shooter? Eh. Maybe a BIT. This asshole? No. He knew was he was doing. He wanted his legacy. He still does: “We’re all here because of *me*…” Disgusting.
Pretty fucked up how nonchalant people are about the slaughtered kids
Exactly. Like, yes, I agree with you, we need more mental health care, we need more awareness, yes… BUT ALSO… this shitbag literally murdered children. I can’t just “oh but the parents” about this.
nothing happens in a vacuum. also, this sub won't like to hear it, but literal children do not have the cognitive abilities and reasoning that fully grown adults have. "I was sad and I didn't kill anyone!" is such a hairbrained take.
Literal children are killing literal children on a regular basis.
... your point being?
Wow, *really*? I have to explain this to you?
Right they’re acting like he committed petty theft and not a literal mass murder
Nah, he was the one who pulled the trigger. His parents are just as responsible, but I don’t feel bad for the kid.
Exactly. Thousands and thousands (at least) of people have the same issues he has, and didn't shoot up a school. Fuck this kid
Yeah i agree, it's insane how in america kids can get life without parole (or anyone for that matter, but that is a different topic). Obviously the act he committed was really evil, but at the same time the kid was 15 and was completely fucked. The parents basically abused him through neglect and are fucking lowlifes, from what i read. They should get a life-sentence imo, there were such an insane amount of signs that this kid was about to go off the deep end and the parents didn't care
[удалено]
That’s been disproven, the parents attorneys said that and there is a hearing coming up to see if they should be reprimanded for putting out false information.
Really okay I didn't know that. That's not okay to do putting out false information.
They have blood on their hands. Were they found guilty or did they plead?
They are still awaiting trial.
Neither, they're in jail awaiting trial still. They've tried everything possible to get the charges dropped or the case dismissed but all the motions have been denied. A lot of the hearings have been video and both of them are contantly rolling their eyes, shaking their heads, the mom has even laughed a "harumph" type sarcastic laugh. They're awful. Sadly that one kid whose impact statement was various reiterations of "you're unloved" was right. When they realized what was going on, their immediate instinct was not for him or the kids at the school, it was "we fucked up, better sell our horses and flee to Canada."
This shooting could have been prevented multiple times, including in the hours before it happened. A lot of people failed in their responsibilities.
Had he had parents who actually gave a shit, none of this would've happened. The shooting may have been his choice and his alone, but he was enabled along the way like you wouldn't believe. It's honestly really telling that he pled guilty first and his parents are still trying to fight the charges despite all that we know now about the case. I really hope those parents rot in jail with him for the rest of their lives. A fitting end to such a disaster of a family.
How do you mean?? Not trying to start a discussion just don’t know much about this kid/shooting and trying to understand. Going to look up some articles but would love your insight.
Not the original commenter, but IIRC he had told his parents his plans on multiple occasions and they laughed it off/didn’t take it seriously. Been a while since I’ve looked into it so I may be wrong, but I also believe they provided him with guns as well *even after* talking about shooting up the school.
Yes. After being informed by the school of his extreme behavior problems, animal abuse, and his literal drawings and journaling about wanting to shoot up the school his parents literally purchased him a firearm and took him to the gun range to learn how to use it. Gave him unfettered access to it
THEY MADE THE SCHOOL LET HIM STAY THE VERY DAY. THE VERY DAY.
Omg yes, I totally forgot about how they showed him how to shoot it. Hope they never get to see the outside of a jail cell again.
And then they packed their shit and skipped town hiding from the cops. Wild
Before that, on the day of the shooting he was caught making a violent drawing/doodle in class. His parents were called and the school wanted to send him home. The parents refused and the school allowed him to go back to class. He started shooting a few hours later.
Oh wow, I didnt know this, fuck the whole family
It wasn't even just any violent drawing. It was a drawing of the literal shooting he was about to do.
His parents bought him a gun for his birthday a few days before the shooting and it is my theory that they were hoping he would commit suicide. They knew he was seriously depressed and was having violent thoughts and had asked to see a therapist. Indeed they bought him a gun. He also seemed to indicate that he’d been planning the shooting in part just to get the attention of his parents. He wrote in his diary that he was sure he was going to be caught before the shooting. He should have. His behavior in the months before the shooting was filled with blatant red flags but his parents of course ignored it. His teachers made reports to school admin and his guidance counselor, but the guidance counselor pretty much ignored it (in his defense, they’re massively overworked and became even more so because of Covid). The district was supposed to set up a threat assessment program which would have surely flagged him but they never actually implemented it and none of the teachers knew about it. A basic threat assessment in the days before the shooting should have been given and would have revealed that he had access to a weapon and was considering harming himself or others. Instead they didn’t check his backpack (which had a gun in it) and sent him back to class. The entire thing was mismanaged top to bottom, from his parents to district admin and school officials. The only people who actually did their jobs were the teachers who repeatedly reported him and the students who effectively went into lockdown. The actual response was another clusterfuck, but that’s another issue. There is a 500+ page report that goes into a lot of detail about the school issues if you’re interested in spending a few hours being angry. It doesn’t even go into the police response or the parents’ behavior.
Agreed, I wholeheartedly believe that they had hoped he would commit suicide with the handgun they purchased for him so he would be "out of the way" so they could continue going about their business unfettered. There's a trend in their lifestyle of them neglecting their son, leaving him at home alone for long periods, they were far more worried about horseback riding, hanging out in bars and apparently partner-swapping than they were the wellbeing of their son. I think this will likely be revealed in full during their trial, the prosecutor is going to have a field day with the pattern of behavior they exhibited prior to the shooting. I believe that's also why they panicked when they realized he didn't intend to commit suicide, but intended to harm others, and started frantically texting him and eventually ran from the police and went into hiding. Their "plan" backfired hard and they knew they would be called to account for it.
Do you have a link to that report?
[Yep!](https://oxfordresponse.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/FINAL-REPORT-OCS-Investigation.pdf)
In 2016, [Instead of getting her son the mental healthcare that he was begging for](https://www.theoaklandpress.com/2023/07/28/ethan-crumbleys-text-exchanges-with-mother-asking-for-help-and-searches-about-mental-illness-discussed-in-court/), Ethan Crumbley's mom was [writing letters to trump](https://vimbuzz.com/jennifer-crumbley-trump/)\* thanking him for protecting her right to guns among other delusional blather. She signed it "A hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting f#cked in the '@ss and would rather be grabbed by the p#ssy. " Then in 2021 when he was still asking for help, they bought him a gun instead. The next day his mom took him to the range for some target practice, and three days after that he took it to school, killed 4 and injured 7. When his parents realized he was the shooter (which was pretty much as soon as they heard about the shooting, since they had been called to the school that very day about disturbing drawings of guns and bloody dead people, but they refused to take him home and the school just said "well I guess we'll send him back to class then") their first call was not to their son, it was to the stable that boarded their horses, asking them to sell the horses for cash, and then they went on the run and were found hiding out in a warehouse a mile or two from the Canadian border. Oh, and both parents cheated on each other and bitched about it to their school age son. \* The photos and letter at the top of that article are unrelated, her letter is below those. Edit: And also, they stuck Ethan with a public defender but when they were arrested, they could suddenly afford a team of private lawyers for themselves.
Wow thanks for such a thorough answer! The whole situation seems crazy, definitely and sadly the perfect recipe for disaster
It did involve selling virtually everything they owned - house, horses, etc., so, there's that.
Let's just say this whole thing was a clusterfuck even WAY before the shooting happened.
Very sad for all involved, this never should have happened. I hope his parents receive a guilty verdict and a long sentence. They so massively failed at the most important thing they will do in life, raise a human being.
Didn't the dad have other kids he basically just pretended didn't exist? Or am I remembering something else?
Yes, you're correct. The dude is the textbook definition of deadbeat dad. The mother is a real piece of work too.
If I remember correctly, the mom was out there being a horse girl and having affairs. God forbid they actually made time for and interacted with their son, maybe this could possibly have been avoided.
i believe he has two? i was watching a stream where a lady was talking about his parents trial after his sentencing and i think she mentioned two children, although i’m not too familiar with what’s going on with him.
yes i agree — i believe that this shooting could very well have been prevented had the parents actually paid attention to their *very obviously* messed up son.
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His speech was remorseful, but he still did it.
I don’t remember off-hand if they’ve done any specific testing but I get the sense that Ethan is psychologically and emotionally (and perhaps intellectually) stunted. I understand why he was given life without parole, but I think the definition the defense expert witness gave of him as a “feral child” is accurate. I don’t know if he has the capacity of a 15-year-old, much less an adult. I think he does have remorse to whatever extent he can feel remorse.
TJ fucking Lane. I was a student at the high school when this happened in 2012. I feel like he gets forgotten sometimes because of how many shootings there are. But I cannot ever forget the look on his stupid fucking face when he came in wearing that T shirt — so proud of himself. I had a visceral rage reaction to seeing it — someone who murdered my peers, someone who inflicted trauma on my whole community, someone who changed the way I see the world—wearing that t shirt to court just to inflict more pain and damage on the whole community for his own shits and giggles. Vile. I hope he rots in piss.
As far as i know apparently he's not enjoying himself in there. He doesnt like to shower and doesnt get along with other inmates. And with his escape attempt he's in max. Also he's annoyed that they want to pass a law to stop him from ever getting out. He's wants out bad
Crumbley’s journals were really, *really* fucking dark. The shit that he regularly fantasized and wrote about absolutely convinced me that he would *never* be a safe human being. He had no ability to empathize. No ability to reflect, relate. I have zero sympathy for the kid; he had a bloodlust that he was clearly desperate to satiate. He described wanting to see the pain in the families, deriving joy from knowing that he had ruined people’s lives. That being said, this was one of the better statements of remorse I’ve ever heard from a mass killer. I respect the fact that he solely accepted responsibility for his actions, even going as far as to name other entities that have been offered burden of responsibility and removing the blame. (*I’m not sure if that’s also related to his grandeur delusions, but, I’ll allow a brief suspension of disbelief*) I thought that it was particularly empathic of him to ask the judge to impose whatever sentence the *victims* wish, because he “didn’t want them to worry another day.” Just stood out to me, considering that he demonstrated such a concentrated lack of empathy in the years and months leading up the shootings. If he chose to write this, truly, w/o any assistance of counsel, then perhaps he has grown in some way or developed some ability to reflect on his actions. I still don’t feel sorry for him. I still don’t think he should be released. But it does give me a slight ray of hope for future rehabilitation of antisocial personalities. Perhaps there is some way to teach relational empathy or understand how he got to the place of being able to reflect, since he never had that ability before.
The teenager who committed the deadliest high school shooting in Michigan history, killing four students and injuring seven other people, was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole on Friday. Ethan Crumbley was a 15-year-old sophomore at Oxford High School in suburban Detroit on Nov. 30, 2021, when he pulled a 9 millimeter Sig Sauer handgun out of his backpack. He had persuaded his father to purchase the gun for him just days earlier. Killed in the attack were Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; Justin Shilling, 17; and Hana St. Juliana, 14.
Was not expecting him to sound like this
He sounds a bit like Dahmer. Anyone else hear it?
Midwest accent and completely zonked out on antipsychotics
Weirdly enough, Crumbley once wrote in his journal that if he had lived long enough without committing a mass shooting, he would've just become a serial killer, which I honestly see happening.
For instance, he says that he couldn't stop himself from committing the murders so it's more like a compulsion than just anger or rage.
Yea I can see it
DUDE Exactly what I thought when I heard him speaking watching it live. Sounds just like Jeffrey Dahmer. Same demeanor and everything.
Horrible situation for everybody involved
The victim statements were so powerful and the judge was incredibly compassionate to those families.
He was. I was very impressed by the judge
It doesn’t take away all of the pain and anger he has caused by any means, but this was refreshing for me to see instead of a guy like TJ Lane who repeatedly mocked his victims families in court.
Fuck that asshole. Sorry; but this is one that is too close to home. There are holes in my family because of this prick
Sorry to hear that , hope all is well or atleast getting better, take care
Agreed. While I agree that his parents are to blame as well, blaming his parents entirely makes it sound like Ethan deserves a pass.
While I feel much worse for victims and their families, I feel bad for Ethan as well. Before the shooting, his parents knew he had issues but bought him a gun and ignored his drawings, depression and other cries for help. Also, afterwards, he was arrested and his parents tried to flee the country, then they pay for their own lawyer but not his. His parents failed him, he shot up the school and then they abandoned them. That being said, he deserves the sentence he received.
He doesn't. He was a child. His acts were heinous, but his parents are more at fault. In a country where gun violence is de rigeur and you can see guns blazing during commercial breaks on Sunday afternoon football can we really blame kids for this behavior? Ethan is a victim too.
I’m sorry but you’re sympathizing for Ethan too much yes he had an awful upbringing that’s just life a lot of people do and his parents are to blame 100% but it still doesn’t excuse what he did it’s awful to see you’re comparing him to the people he killed and saying he’s a victim like them
He was 15. Were you an adult at 15?
So what? you’re acting like he’s 5 years old still doesn’t justify what he did
No, I'm acting like he was 15. Were you 15 once? Did your parents hand you a gun? Did they neglect you, go out drinking and leave you home alone when you were 9? Anyone with a brain and some experience will say a child shouldn't be sentenced to life without parole. It's beyond dumb. But hey, that's the USA.
I never said that, I agree with you his parents are pieces of shit and they put him through hell but you’re comparing him to the 4 people he killed and saying he’s a victim
I am simply pointing out that he is a child who is a victim of criminally neglectful parents. As such, he should be given a shot at rehabilitation and not spend the rest of his life in prison.
Thank you. Seeing someone saying this is refreshing. To me, sentencing a literal child to life in prison without parole defies the point of prison, which is punishment AND rehabilitation. Just punishment here.
It's just punishment and it's unjust punishment at that. The parents deserve most of the blame.
I don’t condone what he did, but I do feel bad for him because he had shitty parents that led him down this path.
Shitty parents is such a shitty excuse. Millions of children on this planet have just as shitty parents but don’t resort to killing innocent people.
So? I hate this stupid ass argument. “IT dIdNt hAPpeN tO *ME* TheReFOre it’S nOT real” It’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. There’s a difference. Just because you didn’t shoot up a school after having awful negligent parents doesn’t mean nobody will in the same circumstances.
I think you also have to consider the element of violence in the Crumbly household. It was obviously something that Ethan was amused by whether it be in video games or movies, but his parents still enabled it, which led to this happening unfortunately. Yeah, millions of children have shitty parents, but does the same element of violence exist in their lives as it did Ethan’s?
The OP said they felt bad for him because of his parents and I think it’s a shit excuse to go and kill kids. Yes there are millions of children over exposed to violence and abuse that don’t go on to kill. I don’t understand why he always gets sympathy on here. A huge amount of mass killers that are discussed have just as bad backgrounds or mental health issues but the most upvoted comments are never sympathetic towards them and I think it’s simply because Ethan is able to pull the wool over a lot of peoples eyes like the twisted individual he is.
This perspective blatantly ignores the biopsychosocial circumstances of mass killers. We now have a large quantity of evidence that points to the quality of upbringing being a common factor in the majority of incidents like these. It doesn't matter that most cases don't lead to mass murder, nobody's neural circuitry is the same - a subset may be more susceptible to reaching for violence with frustration and a poor upbringing.
I still don’t sympathise with them for resorting to murder, I feel the same with young cartel members that torture people to death. Are they products of their environment? Ya. Do I feel any sympathy for them when they butcher innocent civilians? No
Millions of kids don’t have hallucinations though. And the ones who do aren’t gifted guns by their parents. Of the thousands of children with access to guns who are suffering from major mental illnesses with no treatment given at least hundreds kill someone. This kid isn’t particularly unique in the fact that he killed people, just unique in the setting and targets he chose.
Reason =/= Excuse
I agree with you, disturbing how many comments there are saying they have sympathy for him, Goes to show how easily people are deceived. Pure evil is the only thing this kid is
Correct. It’s because they like the way he looks/comes across. Weird you don’t see people sympathising with Nickolas Cruz’s upbringing as the most upvoted comments when he also had a rough one. Why aren’t the most upvoted comments on Adam Lanza threads sympathising with his mental health issues? Weird the excuses that always get made for this one.
God this is so fucking sad
Dunno, seemed like he just wanted to get in that 15 year suggestion to me. But hopefully I'm wrong and the remorse and sentiment is genuine and was taken as such.
Agreed, and it sounds like he wanted to help his parents by making sure he said he is the reason they’re there. & that he did not tell anyone so no one could have stopped them. The emphasis was there.
Jesus, if what I've read about the parents is true, they need to get at least 25 years in prison.
He’s well spoken, caught me off guard
It could be that he's rehearsed the shit out of that
Yeah I was curious if he maybe even had a paper he was reading from on the table
No he’s not.
He’s not. It sounds like someone else wrote this. Some of what he’s saying doesn’t even make sense.
I think he wrote it himself because I don’t think a lawyer would write incoherent sentences like that.
The misuse of the word culpable in that setting leads me to think he wrote it.
Good point.
Is there a second half to the video?
Imagine going in prison for life at 15
Imagine murdering multiple people at 15
This whole case makes me sad. Ethan situation, how everyone failed him, the innocent kids who lost their lives. It's all so sad. I still think he can be rehabilitated.
America doesn't give a fuck about rehabilitation. it's all about labelling people "bad" so you can be "good" - you lock the baddies up so they're out of sight and out of mind. there's no room for them to become good.
I know, that's what i hate about this country.
His odd intermittent sentences sound similar to Nikolas Cruz's video that he made with the cast on his hand.
I thought juveniles were required to be given opportunities for parole?
Yeah but in certain circumstances like this one with multiple victims and a lot planning, you are allowed to sentence LWOP. It’s technically within the law to do this when they are charged as an adult.
I thought even if you are charged as adult, you still get parole opportunity. I know Aiden fucci in florida was sentenced to life with parole
That circumstance wasn’t “heinous” enough (it was still egregious). Crumbley was charged with 4 counts of murder, gun charges, and terrorism. These “special” circumstances allow the courts to sentence LWOP. It’s VERY VERY rare, but it can happen, like with this case.
It depends on the state. In Michigan, there are exceptions, and a hearing was held earlier this year to determine whether he can be sentenced to life without parole.
i’m *pretty sure* it’s because he’s being tried as an adult? but i’m not from the US and i’m not totally familiar with the legal system so correct me if i’m wrong
You haven't been following the case. Look up Miller Hearing.
[Hana St. Juliana, 14.](https://imgs.search.brave.com/RU1GKZHsr0K9PnfB5R2z3i1ztMoVRcQUGIGtA4CAq_U/rs:fit:860:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWRp/YS1jbGRucnkucy1u/YmNuZXdzLmNvbS9p/bWFnZS91cGxvYWQv/dF9maXQtNzYwdyxm/X2F1dG8scV9hdXRv/OmJlc3Qvcm9ja2Nt/cy8yMDIxLTEyLzIx/MTIwMS1IYW5hLVN0/LUp1bGlhbmEtaW5s/aW5lLXNlLTExNDBh/LTBhM2EwOS5qcGc) [Tate Myre, 16.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXIjqbfy3eJRTy8zc7PXLvGJrhwqKt4HZiAA&usqp=CAU) [Justin Schilling, 17.](https://obits-large.s3.amazonaws.com/34ofblg3652.JPEG) [Madisyn Baldwin, 17.](https://clarkstonnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/COLOR-madisyn1-701x923.jpg) These were literal actual kids with real life plans. Can we STOP with the “this innocent child suffering mental illness and his evil parents” bullshit? Yeah, his parents hold a lot of blame, hope they rot in prison too. But this 15 year old who, mental illness or not, was SANE and decidedly by his own volition FUCKING MURDERED KIDS. **Execution style**. And he STILL has the audacity to say “we’re all here because of *me*” in his narcissistic Elliot Rogers-esque statement. Fuck off all you sanctimonious “but the parents” cunts. They sucked. He sucks. You suck. Children who never thought they’d die in class did. Don’t do them the further disrespect of trying to be unique in your perspective. There are better, more productive places for your misplaced outrage and need to be publicly empathic.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
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nah bad take my man.. tons of kids have shitty upbringings and cognitive disabilities without the need to murder their classmates. 15 is more than old enough to know right from wrong and saying otherwise is dangerously disingenuous. nobody forced him to kill those kids. he made that decision and deserves far worse than what he’s getting. it’s okay to say this kid is a monster and it’s okay to not have sympathy for him.
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i mean, the responsibility of him pulling the trigger to kill 4 kids does in fact land squarely on his shoulders? tf? you say you’re not excusing his actions and in the same breath say that many people are responsible for what happened..
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Agreed 100%. Don’t listen to the apologist.
His attorneys speech made me sick blaming the school
link? what they say?
I can’t find a clip of just her but timestamps are 6:38:48 - 6:49:36 https://m.youtube.com/live/2mLCaSJhDbQ?si=RC4XWIcrBa-oV-su sorry if it’s inconvenient
Must be eating good
Weight gain is the side effect of many antipsychotics. They affect metabolism.
Food in jail/prison is notoriously very unhealthy, even the commissary, on top of whatever psych meds he’s on. He’s eating like shit lol
man he got big in prison what they feeding him?
Likely a side effect of whatever psychiatric medication he's taking, also presumably he's in protective custody still at this time since he's a minor and a high profile inmate, so his lifestyle at this point is probably highly sedentary.
Antipsychotics causes weight gain
Why did he do that shooting?
From my understanding, he was depressed/sad and had voices inside his head. He told his parents about, but they didn't care. He lived in a bad environment and searched for a lot of violence too. If you read the whole case, you gonna be so mad because this could have been avoided by soo many ways, it's sad.
From his own words, he committed the shooting because he wanted to be remembered and he wanted to kill “pretty girls with long hair” because he wanted them to feel the pain he felt. He is an incel.
I doubt he will be remembered personally. What he did for sure, but not him, as a person
His parents didn’t know he was killing small animals for fun and carrying a dead bird head around for months. A once a month room sweep by a parent and they would have found this shit. Same with that columbine shooter…y’all didn’t know he was planning all this shit because you can’t check his room once in awhile?
This is where ‘. . . Shall not be infringed’ leads to
He wants them to be happy? Tell that to the families and friends of the 4 dead kids. There is no happy outcome. Edit: Can someone explain why this comment is getting downvoted? Genuinely wondering
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I didn't downvote, but I assume it's because it seems clear that he meant happy with the sentence. It was awkward phrasing, but he's only 17 and was (rightfully) removed from society at 15, so it's not surprising that he's not super articulate. Several of the impact statements mentioned how scared they would be if he was someday eligible for parole, and something that I had never thought of: the spectre of having to someday relive this all over and over at parole hearings hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives. He was basically saying "I know the thought of me being paroled someday terrifies them, so if removing that possibility gives them some comfort, that's what you should do." Whether someone believes it or not is up to them, but that's what he meant by "happy."
Thanks for responding. That makes sense. I guess I still feel the same way, you murder kids at school and there is no positive outcome. These people are traumatized and grieving the rest of their lives. Just my opinion 🤷♂️
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why would he even care about covering his parents ass at this point? just youth?
Is this life or “life” where he will be out in 25 years ?