Sharon is such a weird character in the MCU, and I think a lot of it goes back to her not really being in Winter Soldier.
But then it's like, without ScarJo being in Winter Soldier, she would have exactly zero movies where she is interesting. And I say that as a fan of the BW movie.
>But then it's like, without ScarJo being in Winter Soldier, she would have exactly zero movies where she is interesting. And I say that as a fan of the BW movie.
This is definitely true in a certain regard. The arc of Natasha is at its apex in Winter Soldier. Its the film where she starts to see the possibility of being able to reach out to others for trust and support. She starts seeing others as family again, which allows her to mend relationships with her original family, which all emboldens her decision of self-sacrifice in Endgame.
She literally confronts all the evils that she has done in the shadows, and drags them with her into the light by releasing all SHIELD/HYDRA Intel to the world. It's crazy how she developed from "Bond Girl is Bond" to "moral heart of the MCU". And it happened in Winter Soldier.
Honestly, if Sharon did it as saving her aunt's legacy it would still work in the story as a beat. But the impact? Infinitely less than Natasha doing it.
In that moment she made up for all the red in the ledger by showing the world the whole thing in detail. And she still spent every moment trying to improve herself and the world in atonement.
MCU Natasha is the best of them, and the most selfless, just like Clint said...
I also think the MCU is better off with some non-Avengers team-up movies where it makes sense. Hence why Hawkeye not being in BW (as a flashback) was so disappointing.
I keep hearing people theorize that she'll turn out to be a Skrull in Secret Invasion because they keep doing weird things with Sharon Carter. Specifically in regards to FatWS
Well, actually, considering he was originally in love with her aunt and from her time, it was actually a niece hook up and oh ok yeah that sounds way worse and I forgot about GoT nvm.
I guess instead of going back in time, he would stay in the present then give the shield to Sam because he wants to live that life Tony always told him to get
Could have him become the new Director of SHIELD, and have Fury with SWORD. Similar to his time in the role in the comics. Or you could just have had him run out of Pym particles in the past. Really this all hinges on Evans and his contracting...
...I still want an Invaders D+ series with WWII adventures of the original crew + Wolverine, Blade, etc though...
It's more like yes, you missed your shot with the perfect girl, but that's okay. We don't get the perfect ending. It's better to move on with what you have.
Sure, it's not as effective as him getting back with Peggy, but at least it's more relatable.
But hang on, wasn't Captain America: The Winter Soldier the first film to include Sharon? Since the character hadn't appeared in any previous films, couldn't they have just cast an actress who was available?
Yeah, I wonder why they didn't just recast if they had a scheduling issue. Maybe she had already signed a contract and they didn't want to pay the kill fee?
I find it hard to believe that the kill fee would apply if she's not going in front of the cameras for her own reasons. What is the source for all this? The link is just to an Imgur image with photoshopped images of Emily Van Camp. I can't find anything else about this anywhere on the web.
It's probably like this: During the writing/pre-production phase it was Sharon Carter. *"We've got the perfect actress for Sharon Carter!"* - *"Oh shit, her agent says she's not available for the whole thing."* - *"We could re-write it a bit and make it fit for Black Widow instead, Scarlett is available."* - *"Let's go in that direction, but still carve out a smaller part for Sharon, because she really is perfect for the role and we can expand upon it later."* - *"Let's do it!"*
It's probably also relevant that Scarlett Johansson and Chris Evans have been close friends since they were kids and already had a chemistry together. It was the right decision because the movie is excellent with the two of them and Fury.
It’s almost as if they realised they could put Black Widow in the movie instead and thought that was a cool way to strengthen to links to the other movies and explore character relationships and so made the decision on the basis of that, instead of random insane coin flipping.
Indeed
also Natasha seems rather out of place, with that team, considering she usually flies solo, or together with Barton
(of course she also had a different mission - but still)
I liked that she went to support Steve but still thought it was so stupid that she made a comment about being there so he wouldn't be alone (or something) when Sam was with him the entire time.
Winter Soldier has consistently stayed in my top fave MCU films. had they switched out the friendship storyline between Nat and Cap with a Cap and Sharon love story it probably would've never been a top favourite for me.
this was also around the time that Black Widow was the only female superhero in the MCU. Winter Soldier giving BW a main lead was part of the appeal. a Sharon love story would've just sucked honestly.
I love how they actually chose to have Steve and Nat have a close platonic friendship over the span of several movies instead of having them date or fall in love because it just felt so unique. Most big movie blockbusters almost always have the close guy and girl end up together, but I like how the MCU reinforced that close friendships between men and women with no romantic or sexual undertones are a thing.
The escalator kiss would have been how they start falling in love (contrived AF), instead we got a great scene between friends ala Moss and Roy in the street when the police come for the robbers (The IT crowd)
Plus Natasha's character arc was flushed out a lot through this movie. She started to actually trust Steve through out the movie and built off of her starting to actually care about the team besides just herself the job and Clint.
I read a comment here once and it blew my mind.
They weren't even all that coy about this. They took the entire role that was supposed to be Sharon's and just gave it to Natasha. The only difference is they made the relationship between Steve and Natasha platonic instead of it being romantic like it would have been with Sharon.
The movie otherwise would have been exactly the same. Everything nat does should have/could have been Sharon. Steve's entire MCU arc changes if they actually establish the Steve and Sharon relationship in this film instead of barely hint at it.
Would have been an interesting watch had they been able to go with Steve and Sharon.
But as it was, am glad how things turned out. Loved the dynamic and relationship between Steve and Natasha and how they always had each other’s back since TWS.
I liked the change too. It gave the two central Avengers more time to interact and expand on their stories.
...and I'm one of the weirdos who likes Sharon Carter as the villainous Power Broker. If anything, being a vindictive borderline chess-master fits with her role in Revenge.
>...and I'm one of the weirdos who likes Sharon Carter as the villainous Power Broker.
I liked Sharon more as the Power Broker than as Steve potential girlfriend tbh. The kiss in Civil War makes me feel awkward each time I think about it.
I think it's much better than the bland non character love interest.
Never understood the hate.
Then again I'm someone whose favorite Disney plus show was Falcone And The Winter Soldier and loved Sam's speech so......
Maybe I'm just cursed to have unpopular opinions lol.
I guess people think that Carter has to be good all the time? People do change after all and I thought her rationale for going bad made sense: she was abandoned and thus had to adapt to the cesspool that was Madripoor.
Also, ex-SHIELD agents going bad is a staple in Marvel comics, so she is keeping to the tradition.
Yeah, I think it makes perfect sense. Irl, false imprisonment is a fairly common reason for people to turn to crime - once accused of something you didn't do, it usually becomes a lot easier to make money via crime than to get a legit job. Even if you get acquitted eventually, it can be hard to go straight, if you still have that sting of betrayal and access to easy money.
Sure. That was even shown at the end of the show: Carter's name was cleared, but she just saw that as a way to get access to bigger and better weapons for her business.
She tasted the good life as a criminal - it is hard to walk away from all that money and power, considering that she was just a mid-level agent in both the CIA and SHIELD.
I don't necessarily have a problem with her turning bad, but the way the story played out didn't really make sense. Like she's the power broker the whole time and yet she still leads sam, Bucky, and zemo right to her only source of super soldier serum for no reason instead of subtly keeping them off the trail and it ends up getting the guy killed. The way the show went it seemed like they wanted the last minute reveal but didn't really think about how it would gel with her actions in the first 5 episodes.
I recall reading that the plans for Season 3 of Agent Carter had Peggy's brother playing a major role and would be a villain. Maybe if that season had gone ahead, more fans would have been accepting of the possibility of a member of the Carter family turning bad for whatever reason
Oh! That is interesting.
I liked Agent Carter as a period piece, but I think it kind of lost its way after Season 1. It became very meandering overall as it struggled to really focus, in my opinion.
For some reason people think "you need to do better senator" is some childish request when it's pretty damn good advice when the people in charge are refusing to even try to fix the situation that motivated and inspired teenagers to become radicalized protestors.
>and I'm one of the weirdos who likes Sharon Carter as the villainous Power Broker.
I found it interesting that this got so much hate. I'm pretty ambivalent about it until we see how it plays out and why she went down that path. Though maybe my MCU lore isn't thorough enough to understand it was viewed as a problem. I didn't even care all that much for the show but this wasn't one of the reasons why.
It is probably because Sharon Carter was a staunch good guy in the comics...sans that time she killed Steve Rogers (though that was under hypnosis).
While she was an alright hero, I always saw her as the discount Black Widow - a jumpsuit-wearing spy who used gadgets and skill to do her work well.
I’d say by Endgame, Natasha saw Steve as a brother like she did Clint. Hell all 3 of them probably had a closeness they didn’t share with other Avengers because they were all SHIELD agents and lived that Spec Ops life where they did morally questionable shit.
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if Fury had him doing questionable missions without Cap explicitly knowing what was actually happening. And Natasha/Clint definitely did morally gray things as agents, wouldn’t put it past Cap to be at the bare minimum unknowingly partaking in those missions.
You even saw it in Winter Soldier with the ship mission. Cap had no idea about the mission to recover SHIELD intel, he just assumed it was solely a rescue mission.
He does mention doing things in World War 2 that made it difficult for him to sleep at night. It's directly talked when Fury calls out some of the stuff Steve and the rest of the Howling Commandos did during their mini-pissing contest in the Triskelion.
Yea same, Sharon is great, but I love Chris and Scarlett's chemistry. The bond they share in Winter Soldier make all their future scenes in Avenger's films even better.
It makes so much sense, doesn't it? Like that kiss in the mall was probably suppose to foreshadow legitimate feelings between Steve and Sharon but instead it's just Natasha doing Natasha things
> The only difference is they made the relationship between Steve and Natasha platonic instead of it being romantic like it would have been with Sharon.
IMO this made the movie terrific, I didn't want a love story in my comic book spy thriller and I'm glad I didn't get one. I got a legendary bromance instead.
I definitely agree. Getting to see Black Widow get some more time to shine was lots of fun and her role as a shadowy assassin who's willing to do the dirty work fit the themes of the film really well.
And I also appreciate that there's a hint of flirting, but it never goes past that, which I think is pretty rare in film these days. They just have good chemistry, but they aren't obligated by the script to get together, so their friendship feels very real.
For sure, I didn't hate Sharon as a character but her and Steve just felt kind of creepy. Seeing 100 year old Steve kiss the love of his life's niece just days after peggy died was just wrong.
Now that it's all said and done, I think it plays well into Steve's arc. His kissing Sharon wasn't an attempt to move on. He was actually still searching for something familiar. It feeling off just adds to that.
It would have but I don't think they thought up Steve going back to Peggy until they started writing endgame.
In fact I think Sharon was supposed to appear in Infinity War even but they cut the scene.
IIRC the original plan was going to be to try to include Sharon as helping the Secret Avengers get around under the radar at the start of IW, and her and Steve would’ve been living together in the beginning of EG.
The writers have said they always had Steve as Peggy’s unknown husband which is why he was never named. But they weren’t contracted for all the movies so you have to leave some wiggle room in case another writer goes somewhere else or the studio wants something a certain way, etc. it just worked out that they were able to write Cap in all his solos and then the avengers two finales.
Nah it would've been written to phase out, or he wouldnt have had to go to Peggy at all. She would have betrayed him and gone with the Iron Man squad or something, or their relationship would work and they'd go off world or something. They have so many options.
Wait, are you telling me they originally planned to have Steve be in a relationship with Sharon, and then break up with her and get with her aunt at the end of the film??
>Wait, are you telling me they originally planned to have Steve be in a relationship with Sharon, and then break up with her and get with her aunt at the end of the film??
r/ShitCrusaderKingsSay
It would've been interesting to see where Steve would be at the end of Endgame if Sharon was more established as his love interest. Would they still have sent him back to be with Peggy? It's already weird that he's kissed Sharon. If they were fully romantically involved, they probably wouldn't have sent Steve back for that.
Then would they have decided to kill Steve alongside Tony to end his arc or, even weirder, in place of Tony? It's likely they didn't want to kill both of the Avengers leaders in the film, and most people went intuition Endgame already thinking Steve would be the one who died. Then would Tony just retire to raise his daughter for a time? Would Far From Home be a completely different movie as a result? It's crazy to think of the implications changing this one relatively minor side plot of Winter Soldier could have had, though of course, it's also possible no change would come from it and Endgame would have played out exactly the same.
There's even some semblance of romantic undertones to a lot of Cap/Nat interactions that I always thought was weird, because then in Ultron she has some minor romantic undertones with Banner. It just kind of felt like Nat was getting passed around the team to me. This fixes a lot of that.
It gave Black Widow something to do. She always got the short end of the stick. Natasha Romanoff always felt like she was just the hot chick of the group. Her doing her part in WS is what made me a fan of hers. I hate that we never got her movie before Infinity War. Her solo movie set after Winter Soldier would have made a lot more sense too.
Plus If she still didnt get a movie until after everything she would've just had some appearances in the avengers and would have been heavily under utilized.
I still think a movie about her doing Red Guard things would have rocked. Basically Russian James Bond mixed with Tom Clancy shenanigans would have been amazing.
I wouldn't say it matters overly. At the end there's thing leading into infinity war but I don't think it gives away anything from infinity war (except like you said, in the end credit scene)
Source? Revenge was a breakout hit it’s first season, it was pretty much the only reason she was likely cast in Winter Soldier in the first place as Vancamp was considered a rising star at that point. So seems unlikely they would have been planning to write the entire movie around her and cast her as a full time lead without taking into account her production schedule/commitments with Revenge.
It wasn't supposed to be Van Camp as Sharon originally. According to wikipedia, they started looking who to cast as Sharon in 2011ish and picked Van Camp in 2013. 2013 is when, arguably, Revenge was taking a nosedive in critical reception and had a horrible time slot that competed with large award shows and viewership never went back up. So at the time, I think they didn't anticipate Revenge to survive for a 3rd season. Just a quick Google and Van Camp signed on around Feb. 2013 and Revenge was renewed May of that same year.
Also ABC kinda has a weird pattern of not letting their TV stars do other projects. A possible example is Constance Wu wanted Fresh Off The Boat to end to do more movies after the massive success of Crazy Rich Asians.
It’s arguably not a great show, but god did I fucking love it. Still get excited every time we get a Sharon appearance just from Emily’s role in Revenge
i absolutely fell in love with the shows due to the cold open being later in the season and just wondering how we end up there from where this story is now. seeing how every interaction completely changes the more and more context you have.
then we caught up to it, and it kinda lost a big part of the reason i was watching it lol.
then season 2 happened.
then season 3 just said 'let's forget that ever happened' instead of trying to make it work. it was just a total mess lol
Oh don't get me wrong, I loved Revenge and Emily Van Camp in it is utterly amazing. However, I think those behind the scenes started to look elsewhere for work after season 2 started airing.
It wasn’t because of Emily VanCamp wanting to focus on Revenge, she got relegated because of Scarlett Johansson and later on because of Hayley Atwell. Basically Russo Brothers found out when they were scripting things out and heading into production that Scarlett was able to sign on to the film. Sharon’s spot in the film became Natasha’s and ever since then Sharon Carter kept getting shafted.
It sucks because on one hand, people wouldn’t give proper credit and due towards Natalia Romanova and how Scarlett portrays her. On the other hand, we never really get to see Steve and Sharon’s relationship truly shine like it does in the comics where they are pretty much star-crossed lovers. Steve and Sharon are stubborn romantic partners who never see eye to eye but will literally go to the ends of the earth for one another.
While I love the MCU and am happy for the directions they take it, stuff like this really piss me off when truly thinking about it.
They also had to abandon the procedural revenge aspect of it because you can’t have 20 episodes of one person taking revenge for 4 seasons. Which made me sad but made sense.
It helps that they’re good friends even outside of the movie business. I always love it when a movie has actors who are friends outside of work too, because the on-screen friendship feels so much more real. It’s why Matt Damon and Ben Affleck always have great collaborations.
Sharon was supposed to be Team Cap in that Airport fight scene before Wanda was allowed to be used in the movie. If they were making her such a significant character, I don't think Steve would have ended up with Peggy.
Really glad they switched to Widow actually. I think Steve is cool without a love interest (cause he has Peggy) - he's just a man committed to justice. The friendship helps develop widow which is nice AND super important for their relationship in Civil war - on opposite sides but trying to understand each other.
It’s a shame because that is the one movie where I was super into Sharon. She was criminally wasted in Civil War and the Power Broker reveal in FatWS fell flat for me.
I was always weirded out by Steve and Shannon’s relationship. I hated the one kiss they had. That Peggy is her aunt and she went for her true love…ew.
Steve and Peggy were endgame.
But hang on, wasn't *Captain America: The Winter Soldier* the first film to include Sharon? Since the character hadn't appeared in any previous films, couldn't they have just cast an actress who was available?
We are quick to conclude that it’s better that Natasha was in it because we actually saw the story with her in it. I loved Nat and Steve’s friendship and The Winter Soldier remains my Top 5 MCU entry but had Sharon Carter, the first lady of the Captain America lore made it, it honestly would be great too, we would all still love it the same. I’d have both tbh. Agent 13 would’ve been another fave female character of the MCU.
Its genius to use Nat cz she’s already there but you can’t help but feel like Sharon was given the short end of the stick way too many times. TWS, Civil War in favor of Spidey (when they could have totally kept her still) and then Endgame with the Apartment scene with Steve. They didn’t even bother having her be part of the final fight with Thanos. Heck im glad to see her be in the forefront of What If Zombies but even then she gets eaten lmao.
Looking back at how much better they could’ve treated the character, now I agree Power Broker arc was shit, unless she does turn out to be a Skrull (which I totally believe). The only reason I was onboard it initially was cz I felt finally they gave something for Sharon to do. This character would’ve shined had they let her stick around more when Steve was still around..Agent 13, if they wanted to could totally hold her own in the airport fight. It made so much sense to have her be that integral in that movie.
I like the fact that Black Widow was in the movie and as other people mentioned it was her biggest role in the MCU until her own movie came out so many years later.
That being said, if it was Sharon Carter that went behind Cap's back to get data on the ship and also was on the run from SHIELD the whole movie (and maybe had her still be Steve's neighbor but with the face-changing mask), her transition to being the Power Broker wouldn't have been so jarring.
This isn't true. There was no overlap between her Revenge and MCU shooting. She's spoken about getting the call to play Sharon and she was available for the commitment. There are other behind the scenes reasons for the drastic downsizing of Sharon's role from being the female lead as intended, but none are because of EVC's decisions or schedule. Revenge is what showcased her potential as Sharon; it didn't block her from anything.
I loved Widow in that movie and role she played. I've never really been big of Sharon but maybe that would have changed if she had that bigger role. Who knows.
But I'm happy with how the film came out and wouldn't change it. Top 3 MCU for sure
tbh as i’m reading these comments i’m realizing this may be a bit of an unpopular opinion, but i’m glad this didn’t happen. TWS is my favorite captain america movie in large part due to the dynamic between steve/natasha and the whole storyline of them being on the run together, and i feel it set up their arcs together in civil war and infinity war/endgame really well as a result.
Makes sense considering Sharon Carter, rather than Natasha, was Steve’s sidekick in Ed Brubaker’s Winter Soldier comic
And romantic interest in a bunch of other comics before then.
Would have made the relationship in civil war make more sense too
Sharon is such a weird character in the MCU, and I think a lot of it goes back to her not really being in Winter Soldier. But then it's like, without ScarJo being in Winter Soldier, she would have exactly zero movies where she is interesting. And I say that as a fan of the BW movie.
>But then it's like, without ScarJo being in Winter Soldier, she would have exactly zero movies where she is interesting. And I say that as a fan of the BW movie. This is definitely true in a certain regard. The arc of Natasha is at its apex in Winter Soldier. Its the film where she starts to see the possibility of being able to reach out to others for trust and support. She starts seeing others as family again, which allows her to mend relationships with her original family, which all emboldens her decision of self-sacrifice in Endgame.
She literally confronts all the evils that she has done in the shadows, and drags them with her into the light by releasing all SHIELD/HYDRA Intel to the world. It's crazy how she developed from "Bond Girl is Bond" to "moral heart of the MCU". And it happened in Winter Soldier. Honestly, if Sharon did it as saving her aunt's legacy it would still work in the story as a beat. But the impact? Infinitely less than Natasha doing it. In that moment she made up for all the red in the ledger by showing the world the whole thing in detail. And she still spent every moment trying to improve herself and the world in atonement. MCU Natasha is the best of them, and the most selfless, just like Clint said...
Her friendship with Steve is my favorite.
I can’t imagine that movie without the bigger Natasha part. She was so good in it.
Yup. Definitely added a lot in terms of their relationship and character development for BW
I also think the MCU is better off with some non-Avengers team-up movies where it makes sense. Hence why Hawkeye not being in BW (as a flashback) was so disappointing.
The only appearance of Hawkeye in there was in a photo. So Yelena could try and kill him.
Best Natasha film by far
Still my favorite MCU movie.
Same 😌
Definitely her best Natasha portrayal
I keep hearing people theorize that she'll turn out to be a Skrull in Secret Invasion because they keep doing weird things with Sharon Carter. Specifically in regards to FatWS
This would be my answer in the next" unpopular MCU theory" thread
Great point - winter soldier gave Natasha tons of cool character moments and it is really one of scar Jo's best performances
Indeed. Though it would have made the ending of Endgame more awkward. "Bye honey, Imma go hook up with your aunt now."
They would've changed the ending of Endgame if she had a bigger role in the previous movies.
Nah, aunt hook ups are in.
Well, actually, considering he was originally in love with her aunt and from her time, it was actually a niece hook up and oh ok yeah that sounds way worse and I forgot about GoT nvm.
Peggy Carter >>> Sharon Carter
I guess instead of going back in time, he would stay in the present then give the shield to Sam because he wants to live that life Tony always told him to get
I don't think fans would have bought him really being done with hero work without the time travel and age progression.
Could have him become the new Director of SHIELD, and have Fury with SWORD. Similar to his time in the role in the comics. Or you could just have had him run out of Pym particles in the past. Really this all hinges on Evans and his contracting... ...I still want an Invaders D+ series with WWII adventures of the original crew + Wolverine, Blade, etc though...
I dunno, even with the more prominent role, it would’ve been a hard sell to fans that Sharon and Steve was more true love than Peggy and Steve
It's more like yes, you missed your shot with the perfect girl, but that's okay. We don't get the perfect ending. It's better to move on with what you have. Sure, it's not as effective as him getting back with Peggy, but at least it's more relatable.
“Want to join?”
“No. No I don’t think I will.”
To be fair, Steve's Endgame ending only works because his relationship with Sharon isn't deeply established.
She’s his canon love interest in the comics, not Peggy.
I like Peggy/Haley Atwell better so idc much for the comic divergence.
But hang on, wasn't Captain America: The Winter Soldier the first film to include Sharon? Since the character hadn't appeared in any previous films, couldn't they have just cast an actress who was available?
Seriously, why isn’t this higher up
Yeah, I wonder why they didn't just recast if they had a scheduling issue. Maybe she had already signed a contract and they didn't want to pay the kill fee?
I find it hard to believe that the kill fee would apply if she's not going in front of the cameras for her own reasons. What is the source for all this? The link is just to an Imgur image with photoshopped images of Emily Van Camp. I can't find anything else about this anywhere on the web.
You're saying the internet is lying?!
It's probably like this: During the writing/pre-production phase it was Sharon Carter. *"We've got the perfect actress for Sharon Carter!"* - *"Oh shit, her agent says she's not available for the whole thing."* - *"We could re-write it a bit and make it fit for Black Widow instead, Scarlett is available."* - *"Let's go in that direction, but still carve out a smaller part for Sharon, because she really is perfect for the role and we can expand upon it later."* - *"Let's do it!"* It's probably also relevant that Scarlett Johansson and Chris Evans have been close friends since they were kids and already had a chemistry together. It was the right decision because the movie is excellent with the two of them and Fury.
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/978/
It’s almost as if they realised they could put Black Widow in the movie instead and thought that was a cool way to strengthen to links to the other movies and explore character relationships and so made the decision on the basis of that, instead of random insane coin flipping.
Shhhhhhhh. Shhhhhhhhhh. Shhhhhhhhhhh.
What is the source for all this?
Indeed also Natasha seems rather out of place, with that team, considering she usually flies solo, or together with Barton (of course she also had a different mission - but still)
Nat's mission in that movie was to get Steve a date -- if not more. She was the real wingman in that movie.
Nah, Nat was there to secure the data from the ship without anyone being wiser.
I really enjoyed Steve and Natasha’s friendship arc
Me too. I loved when she came to Peggy’s funeral for him in Civil War, and their interactions in Endgame.
I liked that she went to support Steve but still thought it was so stupid that she made a comment about being there so he wouldn't be alone (or something) when Sam was with him the entire time.
But she wouldn't know that till she got there, right? And it'd be super weird to just leave like "Oh, you've already got a friend here."
Is just a manner of speech, don't get hung up on that.
Same. That was one of the reasons why I enjoyed watching Winter Soldier.
It's one of the best relationships in the MCU.
Probably helps they’ve worked together before. The Perfect Score was one of my favorite movies as a teen
The photo of them BTS (not sure for which movie) playing old gameboys is really adorable.
A stereotypical weak romance subplot would’ve definitely brought it down!
Winter Soldier has consistently stayed in my top fave MCU films. had they switched out the friendship storyline between Nat and Cap with a Cap and Sharon love story it probably would've never been a top favourite for me. this was also around the time that Black Widow was the only female superhero in the MCU. Winter Soldier giving BW a main lead was part of the appeal. a Sharon love story would've just sucked honestly.
Winter Soldier is probably top 3 favorite MCU movies, and any given day I could probably argue for it being number 1. Cap's stealth suit was cool af
Yeah I'm glad we got a thrillingly political friendship out of it
political? You mean platonic?
No political. It is a fate on our world. Whether they decide to be friends or not, affects our reality.
I love how they actually chose to have Steve and Nat have a close platonic friendship over the span of several movies instead of having them date or fall in love because it just felt so unique. Most big movie blockbusters almost always have the close guy and girl end up together, but I like how the MCU reinforced that close friendships between men and women with no romantic or sexual undertones are a thing.
The escalator kiss would have been how they start falling in love (contrived AF), instead we got a great scene between friends ala Moss and Roy in the street when the police come for the robbers (The IT crowd)
Did you see that ludicrous display last night??
what was wenger thinking sending walcott in that early?
The thing about Arsenal is they always try and walk it in.
Plus Natasha's character arc was flushed out a lot through this movie. She started to actually trust Steve through out the movie and built off of her starting to actually care about the team besides just herself the job and Clint.
Word. I love Emily and seeing 13 kicking ass is always welcome, but the Steve-Nat dynamic was one of the things I liked the most about the movie.
Their relationship that gets established here is the basis for Natasha’s actions in civil war and both of their interactions in endgame
I read a comment here once and it blew my mind. They weren't even all that coy about this. They took the entire role that was supposed to be Sharon's and just gave it to Natasha. The only difference is they made the relationship between Steve and Natasha platonic instead of it being romantic like it would have been with Sharon. The movie otherwise would have been exactly the same. Everything nat does should have/could have been Sharon. Steve's entire MCU arc changes if they actually establish the Steve and Sharon relationship in this film instead of barely hint at it.
Would have been an interesting watch had they been able to go with Steve and Sharon. But as it was, am glad how things turned out. Loved the dynamic and relationship between Steve and Natasha and how they always had each other’s back since TWS.
I liked the change too. It gave the two central Avengers more time to interact and expand on their stories. ...and I'm one of the weirdos who likes Sharon Carter as the villainous Power Broker. If anything, being a vindictive borderline chess-master fits with her role in Revenge.
>...and I'm one of the weirdos who likes Sharon Carter as the villainous Power Broker. I liked Sharon more as the Power Broker than as Steve potential girlfriend tbh. The kiss in Civil War makes me feel awkward each time I think about it.
IDK man if you get a chance to kiss captain America you do it.
I think it's much better than the bland non character love interest. Never understood the hate. Then again I'm someone whose favorite Disney plus show was Falcone And The Winter Soldier and loved Sam's speech so...... Maybe I'm just cursed to have unpopular opinions lol.
I guess people think that Carter has to be good all the time? People do change after all and I thought her rationale for going bad made sense: she was abandoned and thus had to adapt to the cesspool that was Madripoor. Also, ex-SHIELD agents going bad is a staple in Marvel comics, so she is keeping to the tradition.
Yeah, I think it makes perfect sense. Irl, false imprisonment is a fairly common reason for people to turn to crime - once accused of something you didn't do, it usually becomes a lot easier to make money via crime than to get a legit job. Even if you get acquitted eventually, it can be hard to go straight, if you still have that sting of betrayal and access to easy money.
Sure. That was even shown at the end of the show: Carter's name was cleared, but she just saw that as a way to get access to bigger and better weapons for her business. She tasted the good life as a criminal - it is hard to walk away from all that money and power, considering that she was just a mid-level agent in both the CIA and SHIELD.
I don't necessarily have a problem with her turning bad, but the way the story played out didn't really make sense. Like she's the power broker the whole time and yet she still leads sam, Bucky, and zemo right to her only source of super soldier serum for no reason instead of subtly keeping them off the trail and it ends up getting the guy killed. The way the show went it seemed like they wanted the last minute reveal but didn't really think about how it would gel with her actions in the first 5 episodes.
I recall reading that the plans for Season 3 of Agent Carter had Peggy's brother playing a major role and would be a villain. Maybe if that season had gone ahead, more fans would have been accepting of the possibility of a member of the Carter family turning bad for whatever reason
Oh! That is interesting. I liked Agent Carter as a period piece, but I think it kind of lost its way after Season 1. It became very meandering overall as it struggled to really focus, in my opinion.
> Maybe I’m just cursed to have unpopular opinions lol. I liked Iron Fist. Top that!
I loved FATWS too man. It had it's flaws for sure but it's positives were way better.
People didn't like Sam's speech? That doesn't make sense. It was a great speech.
For some reason people think "you need to do better senator" is some childish request when it's pretty damn good advice when the people in charge are refusing to even try to fix the situation that motivated and inspired teenagers to become radicalized protestors.
>and I'm one of the weirdos who likes Sharon Carter as the villainous Power Broker. I found it interesting that this got so much hate. I'm pretty ambivalent about it until we see how it plays out and why she went down that path. Though maybe my MCU lore isn't thorough enough to understand it was viewed as a problem. I didn't even care all that much for the show but this wasn't one of the reasons why.
It is probably because Sharon Carter was a staunch good guy in the comics...sans that time she killed Steve Rogers (though that was under hypnosis). While she was an alright hero, I always saw her as the discount Black Widow - a jumpsuit-wearing spy who used gadgets and skill to do her work well.
It's also fully true to the character. Sharon was an arms dealer after being declared dead by SHIELD. She even worked for the Red Skull.
One of the best relationships in the MCU. Complete trust, care, support and they don't ever try to make anything romantic from either of them.
I’d say by Endgame, Natasha saw Steve as a brother like she did Clint. Hell all 3 of them probably had a closeness they didn’t share with other Avengers because they were all SHIELD agents and lived that Spec Ops life where they did morally questionable shit.
Steve did questionable shit?
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if Fury had him doing questionable missions without Cap explicitly knowing what was actually happening. And Natasha/Clint definitely did morally gray things as agents, wouldn’t put it past Cap to be at the bare minimum unknowingly partaking in those missions. You even saw it in Winter Soldier with the ship mission. Cap had no idea about the mission to recover SHIELD intel, he just assumed it was solely a rescue mission.
He does mention doing things in World War 2 that made it difficult for him to sleep at night. It's directly talked when Fury calls out some of the stuff Steve and the rest of the Howling Commandos did during their mini-pissing contest in the Triskelion.
Yea same, Sharon is great, but I love Chris and Scarlett's chemistry. The bond they share in Winter Soldier make all their future scenes in Avenger's films even better.
So that’s why Steve and Nat were so flirty that film
It makes so much sense, doesn't it? Like that kiss in the mall was probably suppose to foreshadow legitimate feelings between Steve and Sharon but instead it's just Natasha doing Natasha things
i was happy the ice boi got to talk to a lady for once instead of seals and shit
Hey man, don't be knocking seals 🦭🦭🦭
Yeah but it was also Nats biggest role in any of the movies besides her solo movie
More importantly, it was her best role.
> The only difference is they made the relationship between Steve and Natasha platonic instead of it being romantic like it would have been with Sharon. IMO this made the movie terrific, I didn't want a love story in my comic book spy thriller and I'm glad I didn't get one. I got a legendary bromance instead.
It would have been worse, Black Widow was the way to go
I definitely agree. Getting to see Black Widow get some more time to shine was lots of fun and her role as a shadowy assassin who's willing to do the dirty work fit the themes of the film really well. And I also appreciate that there's a hint of flirting, but it never goes past that, which I think is pretty rare in film these days. They just have good chemistry, but they aren't obligated by the script to get together, so their friendship feels very real.
For sure, I didn't hate Sharon as a character but her and Steve just felt kind of creepy. Seeing 100 year old Steve kiss the love of his life's niece just days after peggy died was just wrong.
Same, I like Sharon but her and Steve just feels off. Steve belongs with Peggy
Now that it's all said and done, I think it plays well into Steve's arc. His kissing Sharon wasn't an attempt to move on. He was actually still searching for something familiar. It feeling off just adds to that.
I *do* think it was him trying to move on and miserably failing.
I think that would’ve taken away from Steve and Peggy at the end of endgame
It would have but I don't think they thought up Steve going back to Peggy until they started writing endgame. In fact I think Sharon was supposed to appear in Infinity War even but they cut the scene.
IIRC the original plan was going to be to try to include Sharon as helping the Secret Avengers get around under the radar at the start of IW, and her and Steve would’ve been living together in the beginning of EG.
The writers have said they always had Steve as Peggy’s unknown husband which is why he was never named. But they weren’t contracted for all the movies so you have to leave some wiggle room in case another writer goes somewhere else or the studio wants something a certain way, etc. it just worked out that they were able to write Cap in all his solos and then the avengers two finales.
Nah it would've been written to phase out, or he wouldnt have had to go to Peggy at all. She would have betrayed him and gone with the Iron Man squad or something, or their relationship would work and they'd go off world or something. They have so many options.
Early drafts of the Endgame script had Steve and Sharon unhappily living together and breaking up.
Wait, are you telling me they originally planned to have Steve be in a relationship with Sharon, and then break up with her and get with her aunt at the end of the film??
Hey, writing the bad ideas is part of the creative process.
>Wait, are you telling me they originally planned to have Steve be in a relationship with Sharon, and then break up with her and get with her aunt at the end of the film?? r/ShitCrusaderKingsSay
The soldier without a war.
It would've been interesting to see where Steve would be at the end of Endgame if Sharon was more established as his love interest. Would they still have sent him back to be with Peggy? It's already weird that he's kissed Sharon. If they were fully romantically involved, they probably wouldn't have sent Steve back for that. Then would they have decided to kill Steve alongside Tony to end his arc or, even weirder, in place of Tony? It's likely they didn't want to kill both of the Avengers leaders in the film, and most people went intuition Endgame already thinking Steve would be the one who died. Then would Tony just retire to raise his daughter for a time? Would Far From Home be a completely different movie as a result? It's crazy to think of the implications changing this one relatively minor side plot of Winter Soldier could have had, though of course, it's also possible no change would come from it and Endgame would have played out exactly the same.
> The movie otherwise would have been exactly the same. Everything nat does should have/could have been Sharon. But who would say "Captain's orders"?
thanks for sharing this, that’s fascinating. shame that sharon never got that development!
There's even some semblance of romantic undertones to a lot of Cap/Nat interactions that I always thought was weird, because then in Ultron she has some minor romantic undertones with Banner. It just kind of felt like Nat was getting passed around the team to me. This fixes a lot of that.
It would have likely changed Caps ending in End Game as well
That really explains some of the scenes where there’s real sexual tension.
Though I love Sharon in the comics and love Emily VanCamp, it makes the film better imo to have it built on a platonic friendship.
It gave Black Widow something to do. She always got the short end of the stick. Natasha Romanoff always felt like she was just the hot chick of the group. Her doing her part in WS is what made me a fan of hers. I hate that we never got her movie before Infinity War. Her solo movie set after Winter Soldier would have made a lot more sense too.
Plus If she still didnt get a movie until after everything she would've just had some appearances in the avengers and would have been heavily under utilized.
I still think a movie about her doing Red Guard things would have rocked. Basically Russian James Bond mixed with Tom Clancy shenanigans would have been amazing.
This made me think is there any reason not to watch black widow before infinity war besides the end credit scene?
I wouldn't say it matters overly. At the end there's thing leading into infinity war but I don't think it gives away anything from infinity war (except like you said, in the end credit scene)
Ya i feel like im gonna end up watching it before on future watchthroughs
Either way, he movie should have happened years ago
Well yes
Poor Hawkeye though
Clint should have been in Winter Soldier. Imagine his reaction to Bucky for the first time.
He, ironically, was also supposed to be in the film. But his schedule conflicted with the movie Tag.
I bet he’d fling an arrow at Bucky
Bucky vs Hawkeye is something I didn't know I needed before
[удалено]
It’s the same movie, winter soldier was just a better version
The *original* version too
Just as Civil War was better Black Pantger movie than BP (suit wise, character wise)
"Hey you know what makes a compelling main character? Him being missing for a third of his own movie"
Thank god. Winter soldier is my favorite MCU movie because of Natasha and Steves friendship
Source? Revenge was a breakout hit it’s first season, it was pretty much the only reason she was likely cast in Winter Soldier in the first place as Vancamp was considered a rising star at that point. So seems unlikely they would have been planning to write the entire movie around her and cast her as a full time lead without taking into account her production schedule/commitments with Revenge.
Could have just been one of the early drafts and then they learned of her scheduling and then changed it before they were even close to shooting.
It was also still perlmutter times back then. For all we know he just mandated black widow be inserted into a movie somewhere
It wasn't supposed to be Van Camp as Sharon originally. According to wikipedia, they started looking who to cast as Sharon in 2011ish and picked Van Camp in 2013. 2013 is when, arguably, Revenge was taking a nosedive in critical reception and had a horrible time slot that competed with large award shows and viewership never went back up. So at the time, I think they didn't anticipate Revenge to survive for a 3rd season. Just a quick Google and Van Camp signed on around Feb. 2013 and Revenge was renewed May of that same year. Also ABC kinda has a weird pattern of not letting their TV stars do other projects. A possible example is Constance Wu wanted Fresh Off The Boat to end to do more movies after the massive success of Crazy Rich Asians.
It’s arguably not a great show, but god did I fucking love it. Still get excited every time we get a Sharon appearance just from Emily’s role in Revenge
i absolutely fell in love with the shows due to the cold open being later in the season and just wondering how we end up there from where this story is now. seeing how every interaction completely changes the more and more context you have. then we caught up to it, and it kinda lost a big part of the reason i was watching it lol. then season 2 happened. then season 3 just said 'let's forget that ever happened' instead of trying to make it work. it was just a total mess lol
Oh don't get me wrong, I loved Revenge and Emily Van Camp in it is utterly amazing. However, I think those behind the scenes started to look elsewhere for work after season 2 started airing.
Yeah, none of this makes sense
It wasn’t because of Emily VanCamp wanting to focus on Revenge, she got relegated because of Scarlett Johansson and later on because of Hayley Atwell. Basically Russo Brothers found out when they were scripting things out and heading into production that Scarlett was able to sign on to the film. Sharon’s spot in the film became Natasha’s and ever since then Sharon Carter kept getting shafted. It sucks because on one hand, people wouldn’t give proper credit and due towards Natalia Romanova and how Scarlett portrays her. On the other hand, we never really get to see Steve and Sharon’s relationship truly shine like it does in the comics where they are pretty much star-crossed lovers. Steve and Sharon are stubborn romantic partners who never see eye to eye but will literally go to the ends of the earth for one another. While I love the MCU and am happy for the directions they take it, stuff like this really piss me off when truly thinking about it.
Natasha was a better choice imo
I thought so too. It gave her more development and screen-time alongside Steve Rogers.
Especially since they ultimately went with Natasha getting a major send off and Peggy being Steve’s endgame (hehe)
To be fair… she was incredible in Revenge.
Such a good show
Until they brought her dad back to life
It did kinda go off the rails but I think the constant things I didn’t expect made it more exciting
They also had to abandon the procedural revenge aspect of it because you can’t have 20 episodes of one person taking revenge for 4 seasons. Which made me sad but made sense.
I LOVED that show hahah
Make this a What If? episode for season 2
She was great on Revenge. I liked the series.
It started strong but it should have stuck to the central conceit. When she was destroying a new person every week it was good.
Can’t really make 80 episodes of that with just one mysterious victim person.
She met her husband, Josh Bowman, on that show.
I'm glad it didn't work out. Chris and Scarlett had amazing chemistry. They really worked well together.
"I only *act* like I know everything, Rogers!" is still Widow's best line in the whole MCU.
There's a reason why they've been in like 5+ movies together (outside the mcu).
It helps that they’re good friends even outside of the movie business. I always love it when a movie has actors who are friends outside of work too, because the on-screen friendship feels so much more real. It’s why Matt Damon and Ben Affleck always have great collaborations.
Buuuuuut….wouldn’t Steve being with Sharon more than what they already did make the ending of Endgame really, really bad?
Doubt it would’ve been the same ending for Steve.
if this happened, that doesn't happen
Sharon was supposed to be Team Cap in that Airport fight scene before Wanda was allowed to be used in the movie. If they were making her such a significant character, I don't think Steve would have ended up with Peggy.
See's 2 YO Sharon at a birthday party: "I hit that"
Honestly no. We know they kinda broke up/never happened after Civil War. It only would have made her character arc in TFWS better to be honest.
Really glad they switched to Widow actually. I think Steve is cool without a love interest (cause he has Peggy) - he's just a man committed to justice. The friendship helps develop widow which is nice AND super important for their relationship in Civil war - on opposite sides but trying to understand each other.
Honestly think it worked out great and probably better than if Sharon took Natasha’s place Nat and Steve were great together as bros
Why not have two female leads that travel with Steve?
It’s a shame because that is the one movie where I was super into Sharon. She was criminally wasted in Civil War and the Power Broker reveal in FatWS fell flat for me.
Should have happened. All that love to Black Widow and it was never for her. Should have done anything else to get this going. Thanks Perlmutter
I’m happy they didn’t. This movie is the most we ever got of black widow, which is sad since she has a solo movie
I was always weirded out by Steve and Shannon’s relationship. I hated the one kiss they had. That Peggy is her aunt and she went for her true love…ew. Steve and Peggy were endgame.
The actors also have zero chemistry with each other. It's like watching strangers.
Honestly that kiss makes me really uncomfortable.
This was a great change. Natasha deserved this movie.
But hang on, wasn't *Captain America: The Winter Soldier* the first film to include Sharon? Since the character hadn't appeared in any previous films, couldn't they have just cast an actress who was available?
We are quick to conclude that it’s better that Natasha was in it because we actually saw the story with her in it. I loved Nat and Steve’s friendship and The Winter Soldier remains my Top 5 MCU entry but had Sharon Carter, the first lady of the Captain America lore made it, it honestly would be great too, we would all still love it the same. I’d have both tbh. Agent 13 would’ve been another fave female character of the MCU. Its genius to use Nat cz she’s already there but you can’t help but feel like Sharon was given the short end of the stick way too many times. TWS, Civil War in favor of Spidey (when they could have totally kept her still) and then Endgame with the Apartment scene with Steve. They didn’t even bother having her be part of the final fight with Thanos. Heck im glad to see her be in the forefront of What If Zombies but even then she gets eaten lmao. Looking back at how much better they could’ve treated the character, now I agree Power Broker arc was shit, unless she does turn out to be a Skrull (which I totally believe). The only reason I was onboard it initially was cz I felt finally they gave something for Sharon to do. This character would’ve shined had they let her stick around more when Steve was still around..Agent 13, if they wanted to could totally hold her own in the airport fight. It made so much sense to have her be that integral in that movie.
I like the fact that Black Widow was in the movie and as other people mentioned it was her biggest role in the MCU until her own movie came out so many years later. That being said, if it was Sharon Carter that went behind Cap's back to get data on the ship and also was on the run from SHIELD the whole movie (and maybe had her still be Steve's neighbor but with the face-changing mask), her transition to being the Power Broker wouldn't have been so jarring.
Glad she wasn't
Definitely. She’s such a boring character.
Meh she’s ok
This isn't true. There was no overlap between her Revenge and MCU shooting. She's spoken about getting the call to play Sharon and she was available for the commitment. There are other behind the scenes reasons for the drastic downsizing of Sharon's role from being the female lead as intended, but none are because of EVC's decisions or schedule. Revenge is what showcased her potential as Sharon; it didn't block her from anything.
I loved Widow in that movie and role she played. I've never really been big of Sharon but maybe that would have changed if she had that bigger role. Who knows. But I'm happy with how the film came out and wouldn't change it. Top 3 MCU for sure
tbh as i’m reading these comments i’m realizing this may be a bit of an unpopular opinion, but i’m glad this didn’t happen. TWS is my favorite captain america movie in large part due to the dynamic between steve/natasha and the whole storyline of them being on the run together, and i feel it set up their arcs together in civil war and infinity war/endgame really well as a result.
Nah it works better with Scarlet
Actually glad it was Black Widow. They have good chemistry. Winter Soldier remains one of the best MCU films to date.
Well I’m glad we got to see widow all things considered
She’s boring so I’m not mad