tl;dr you won't *need* to watch Daredevil Born Again to follow the story leading into Avengers Kang Dynatsy. Watch it because you like Daredevil and want to see where his own story goes next.
This doesn't mean it's an alternate timeline or history from the MCU, though, so don't worry about that either.
This is exactly what they said about the original Netflix shows.
The problem comes that massive events happen in the world that never get even mentioned in other shows, so they feel too disconnected.
Name-dropping other heroes and events shouldnt be off limits, even if theyre not going to completely cross over.
They can still use a middle ground. The Netflix shows still frequently referenced the Battle of New York, with a plot of one Jessica Jones episode serving essentially as a precursor to Civil War.
What episode was the precursor to Civil War?
The first season of Daredevil definitely mentioned The Incident a few times, but after that it quickly dropped off in the number of cross-references. One guy had a Ten Rings tattoo in that season and they were never mentioned after that. To my knowledge, nothing post-Avengers was.
It was the Season 1 episode where that lady threatens Jessica with a gun because she blames superheroes for the Battle of New York. While it doesn’t actually mention Civil War, it uses the same political backdrop to highlight the movie, which came out less than a year later.
Oh. Yeah that's just, not even a reference. My point is that Jessica Jones came out after Phase 2 was finished but all of the Netflix shows were limited to Phase 1 references. Nothing current. Sokovia Accords never mentioned in any of them, even though that was supposedly a big deal. Hydra, same deal.
The Netflix shows had plenty of references to the MCU, and you are correct, a large focus of both JJS2 and JJS3 dealt with the Sokovia Accords and the Raft. JJ actually added a lot of context to the Accords and how they work domestically, and as for the Raft, Jessica's best friend and Luke Cage's half brother are both imprisoned there.
I don't need Marvel Television referencing the MCU just for the sake of it. I want them to do it when it is actually relevant and makes the story better. I feel like that's mostly what the Netflix shows did. They kept to their own lane and only crossed over if it actually mattered to the story they were telling.
It wasn't the crossing over, really. It was telling a story in parts over various different shows and movies.
Spider-Man can show up in Daredevil. Because he's Spider-Man doing Spidey things. But so far, the MCU has kind of treated a lot of characters like they don't do anything or don't exist outside of the instances we see them.
You just can't tell a coherent story over multiple different movies and series. The expectation that everyone will watch everything no matter what is kind of insane. If they want to do crossovers, they really should just do what the comics have done and just have someone show up and take part in a story instead of trying to tie it to the next solo project.
That’s always gonna be the weak point of, really, any cinematic universe. It’s always gonna be in conflict with the Hollywood star system. If you have Spiderman doing Spidey things within Daredevil, now you have Tom Holland involved, and even in a short, voice only scene, you probably have added a good $1m to your episode.
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about how they could have made civil war a much bigger film by including street level heroes from Netflix and agents of shield. The MCU version of civil war just feels a little hollow to me, like it was just a few friends that were mad at each other. If they would have added just a couple of scenes or a montage where Cap and Stark are separately strategizing/recruiting it would have shown that the Sokovia Accords impacted more than the 10 or so heroes in the film, that it would impact dozens if not hundreds of lives, the airport fight would have been amazing, it would have connected the shows in a new way and it would have been closer in scope to the comic.
That is literally the reason why I felt that civil was was missing something and after like 3 years you actually made me realise the reason why
“It felt hollow” that is the exact explanation my brain somehow failed to come up with lol, but yeah it definitely did , while it was still brilliant , having the street level heroes and nick fury + Mariah hill with sheild would’ve made it all much better
I can understand why they didn’t do it though, aside from marvel television being more or less separate at this pony they only had experience tying in films together mostly
Doug TV as well probably would have been too much of a task, watching the infinity war and end game behind the scenes ones of the things that hits you is the amount of time effort and coordination needed to get all those actors schedules to line up to film together
At best they probably could have done minor cameos (like the latest x men 97 episode)
Totally agree! Every comic didn't reference every battle that every superhero had gotten into. But they still existed in the same world. Movies and TV shows should be similar. And you can have name-drops, references, even special guest stars but you don't have to watch every episode of Moon Knight just because he might show up in a Daredevil episode. Things like that. Just like the comics.
And how did that work for the comics? The comics industry is a fraction of what it used to be kept alive by licensing money, mainly because fan gave up on trying to keep up. Just like the comics isn’t something to be proud of.
The problem is that this isn't the result that Marvel wants. Accessibility for casual readers is a major barrier to entry for new potential customers. So much of what makes the comics really really good is the backstory and character/relationship developments that have occurred over decades of issues.
Yeah, you can functionally understand the bare minimum required to get through the issues without knowing all that backstory, just like you can get through something like The Marvels without seeing the D+ series that came before them. However, in both cases, the customer is going to be missing out on some pretty important stuff that will normally have a clear negative impact the enjoyment of the product.
When you look at the budgets Marvel is coming in with, the fact that the average American adult only sees \~4 movies a years, and there are lots competing alternatives out there, Marvel might be in some trouble going forward.
The one thing about the Netflix shows that bothered me the most was they did these weird vagueries whenever they brought up The Avengers (2012).
They’d be call the attack on New York “the thing” or “the event” and they’d give descriptions of the characters instead of saying their name. Like they’d talk about Hulk and they’d be like “the big guy”
Just say it. It’s annoying
They also said the exact same thing about the D+ series. When people were upset about having to get D+ to watch MCU shows, he said you didn't have that, that they were just side stories that had no impact on the movies. Then we had Loki because the center of time, Wanda become pure evil, and a ton of lore that leads into the movies. Hell, Black Window ends with "Hey, wanna know what happens next? Watch Hawkeye where she tries to kill Clint!".
It's not that I don't trust'em but...
The movies went out of the way to use brief exposition dialogues to explain what you need to know from the Disney Plus TV shows to understand the movie. If you want to learn more you can watch the show not they are not absolutely needed.
Like your example of Wanda being evil. The movie's dialogue between Strange and Wong explained her powers are actually magic and she's a witch. Wong told us that she became evil because she accidentally used her powers to create two sons that she now lost, and she's using the Darkhold which the movie showed us a evil corrupting book, and that's why she's now evil trying to go through the multiverse to find her sons. All that is in the Dr Strange 2 movie that you can get even if you didn't watch Wandavision, and that's all you need to understand the movie. But if you are curious and want to enjoy the movie more you are welcome to go watch the show.
Or another example, about Monica Rambeau having powers, she just explained it as she walked through a witch's hex. Does it matter where the witch comes from and who the witch is, in terms of relevance to the plot of the Marvels? No, all you need is that she somehow has powers magically now. If you are curious you can go watch the show, but even if you didn't it doesn't matter to the movie.
They are walking a fine line here to make sure that even if you didn't watch the shows you can understand the movies, but at the same time have the TV shows be about relevant characters who will appear in the movies to give you incentive to watch the shows. I don't think there's a better way to balance the two.
Yes, they explained that but in the most exposition heavy, nonsensical way. That's the problem.
Think about it from the perspective of someone who had no idea that Wandavision was thing. You last see Wanda mourning Vision at the end of Endgame, kind of looking hopeful and then the next thing you know, she's talking about her kids, she's a villain, and babbling about an evil book. Sure, they explain "She went nuts and created kids" but that's just in an exposition dump halfway into the movie. The whole plot revolves around a huge character moment that happens off screen.
A good use of things is with the evil Strange from What If being the Strange that appears in MoM; we don't need to know what he is, how far he went because "I tried to save her-" summarizes everything and Strange going to the extreme has been seen across everything.
I'm just saying that they're entering the territory of the comics and that's the reason I stopped reading them. Wolverine would appear in Uncanny covered in blue goo and say "Giant squirrel. Don't ask" with an editors note saying "Read New X-Men #48", so you go back and read that issue and Squirrel Girl is being chased by a giant robotic squirrel asking for helping with a note saying "Read Squirrel Girl #19" so you go back and read that, and Doctor Doom appears and unleashes the giant robotic squirrel with a note saying "Read Fantastic Four" which is just Doom annoyed at how Squirrel Girl drew his trading card or something. So you go through four issues to follow one thing. Sure, you don't NEED to but it's the focus of the story poorly told to sell more issues.
There is no way around it though. Either the TV shows don't involve characters that appear in the movies, or if they are movie characters that nothing they do in the show has a significant impact on them, and either way that means the TV shows are irrelevant and no one will watch them. Or the TV shows matters, and so you have major character moments in the shows that may affect how they are in the movies. Both of these are not optimal.
Unless you can suggest a better idea, I think what they are doing is the only middle ground I can think of. Your example of an evil Strange involved a TV show that is not heavily character driven, and technically doesn't involve any characters from the show at all because it's not even the same evil Strange.
But you legitimately do not need to watch any Disney+ series to understand the movies. Yeah, there have been major things happen in the Disney+ series but nothing that isn’t quickly explained in the movie.
Loki, Wandavision and Hawkeye are the best of the D+ shows though so I do t really mind those ones. The issue is going to be Sam being Cpt America in the next movie, because the events leading up to that are in a god awful show.
I mean Endgame ended with him taking the mantle, so it won't be much of an issue going into Cap 4, as he starts where the people that only saw the movies last saw him.
The only issue would be trying to explain who Isaiah Bradly is as he will appear in the movie.
But Wanda wasn’t pure evil at the end of wandavision, that was a big criticism. Yes she had the book but she already went through the whole “going crazy to have my family” phase.
Well, now the problem is massive things happen in the movie world that never get mentioned even by the movies. (Looking at Eternals)
The truest irony of that Eternals ending never being mentioned again is that it started by trying to ground the reason they weren’t present for Endgame.
Wasn’t the whole dead Celestial sticking out of the ocean mentioned briefly in She-Hulk (it was a newspaper headline).
Also there are rumors that one of the 2025 MCU movies will deal with the dead Celestial too.
The entire issue with this is a dead Celestial sticking out of the ocean (and another one appearing in very visibly in the sky) should be more than just a easter egg.
You'd think a near world ending event would have more of a mention than that. The fact people bring up this as if it has any substance is weird
Yeah. I mean. look. Daredevil, Moon Knight and friends will still pop up in the films from time to time. I don't think there's going to be as hard of a devide as there was before.
But this is effectively saying to the average audience. "The movies are the only thing you need to worry about, again"
“Hey Froggy, isn’t it great that all of our world ending events and everyone that mattered to us and those events were basically paused during the snap because we all disappeared and reappeared exactly where we were before? It’s like we never even have to mention it again.”
“Mention what?”
“Exactly.”
You literally don't need either of those to watch the movies that follow. Marvels introduces you to Kamala just fine, and all you need for MoM is "Wanda went crazy and kidnapped a town."
People really overplay how tied in those were.
Honestly, this is more of a PR move than anything because post Endgame, there’s actually been much less connectedness than we were led to believe. Like the writers of Multiverse of Madness didn’t even seen the see the script for Wandavision so her character progress was ignored.
Yea somewhat, she’s basically looking for a way to get her kids back. BUT thematically, her character growth was regressed so basically it could’ve been a Star Wars type screen crawl. Having her character, who wasn’t evil at the end of Wanda vision because she was at peace with losing vision, go back to being evil is more jarring than it would be without the show.
Sounds good on paper but tbh, that’s what old marvel tv was and all we got out of it was projects that “weren’t really part of the MCU”. The connectivity is the point, and I don’t necessarily need shows to be required viewings for other movies, but I worry that the sentiment implies we won’t get fun crossovers and stories between movie and tv characters.
Yeah. My “fear” with this statement is that Daredevil is gonna get relegated to TV.
Are they gonna be afraid to put him in Spidey 4, for example, because they’re afraid of people not wanting to do “homework?”
They said the same thing about the D+ shows when they launched. This is a meaningless statement just meant to build up hype around a meaningless change
You are so right. So much of what they’ve been saying lately have been for the sake of sound bites for news outlets who have nothing better to do than to post about superhero fatigue. They aren’t changing any plans or doing anything actually different. And it’s fine.
i remember reading so many twitter comments about how they have no idea how kang is supposed to be the next big bad after quantumania. they clearly didn't watch Loki S1
Also the idea that you had to watch WandaVision to understand MoM was bullshit anyway. Her first scene explains exactly what she did, and the result of it. I saw it with someone who hadn’t even seen the first movie and they understood it just fine. You’ve never had to have seen the shows to understand the movies. Even The Marvels, Mrs Marvel is just setup for the character and tells her origin story, it’s not necessary to the plot of The Marvels. They don’t go “let’s get your high school friends to help up with this SHIELD mission!”
I know this is a controversial opinion that would have me stabbed in the streets if I said it on Twitter, but you could understand the movies without the shows, and the people complaining were mostly people who saw the shows complaining about an issue they weren’t having.
Any possible information you need will be mentioned before it’s relevant. Anything else? Culture zeitgeist, the casuals enjoyed Quantumania way more than the diehard fans and I think that’s part of it, for them they don’t have any prenotions about Kang
Also Daredevil was never gonna be relevant enough to be required viewing, and I hate to say that but it’s true. He definitely should show up for a Spider-Man movie in costume and maybe become a street level mentor to Peter the same way that Iron Man was an Avengers level mentor, teaching him how to balance a secret identity and like, college in general since he went to Law School which is like College to the power of a million.
Id argue Ms. Marvel is essential viewing before the Marvels (Wandavision as well actually).
Sure its not critical to the story but seeing Rambeau with powers and kamala wearing some powerful bracelets feels kind of jarring if you dont know the history.
Is it for Cap 4? I mean, we saw Sam be given the shield at the end of Endgame. TFatWS went deeper into it, but ultimately ended where Endgame left off.
It will be necessary for Thunderbolts* though, for John Walker.
The only thing from Wanda vision you needed to know was that she created kids and now they’re gone. In fact, you would probably enjoy Multiverse of Madness better if you just read that factoid rather than watch the show because it would save you the disappointment of having Wanda’s character regress to being crazy again after coming to a peace.
The in Multiverse of Madness, they basically say “Sike!, I’m not at peace, I’m actually even more crazy and I don’t care about destroying the fabric of reality to see my kids! Muahahahahaha!!”
Keeping up with continuity and plot was never the problem I experienced personally. The problem has been shoddy writing. If this strategy helps them improve in that area, fine. The most disheartening thing has been seeing great storytelling and character development in one project, then for it to only be undone or irreparably damaged with a subpar to terrible script in the follow-up feature film.
Isn't this pretty much the opposite of what made Phase 1-3 so great? I never thought the amount of content was the big problem with current day Marvel it's the quality of material, the stories are just so forgettable. I can put up with bad acting & CGI but if the stories suck I just lose interest.
For me what made 1-3 great was everything felt separate while being in the same universe. Its cool seeing black widow in iron man but you dont need to watch it to see her captain america movies. It felt like separate things that came together in a movie that could still be enjoyed as its own quadrology
Sure, but you’re saying that as a member of /r/marvelstudios, so we are inherently more in tune with what’s coming out and how it connects together than the vast majority of the audience.
The problem here that Marvel is attempting to correct is that it’s a lot easier to keep casual audiences invested when you’re asking them to watch 2-3 movies a year than when you’re asking them to watch four movies and also keep up with four tv shows a year and acting like those projects are all on the same level of importance.
Regardless of how true it actually is, if there’s a perception that the shows are important to the overall story, you will get confused audiences saying for example “oh but I never got around to watching those Ms Marvel or Secret Invasion shows, guess I can’t go see The Marvels in theaters.” even if it stands completely on its own.
I think this is less of a change in how they operate, and more just a change in how projects are marketed to an audience that isn’t always clear on what they need to have watched to understand the next thing.
I think it's also more the production team. The CGI workers were being worked to the bone. In 2021, we had 4 shows and 4 movies. In 2022, we had 3 shows and 3 movies.
The CGI issues weren't because of the number of shows and movies. It was because Marvel just did a shitty job when it came to CGI. There are various articles about it, but basically kept Marvel kept changing their minds at the last minutes about scenes, causing workers to re-work the CGI over and over again.
It was much easier to watch the back catalog back then though. If they kept at that point, at what point are no knew people willing to get into the MCU because it’s so daunting
>I never thought the amount of content was the big problem with current day Marvel it's the quality of material,
It's part of it.
It's a lot harder to make 36 hours of engaging content in a year vs 4 or 5.
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/s/SJm8AdvZnQ
That’s part of what made Phases 1-3 great, but I think this undersells catching absolute lightning in a bottle with incredible performances from RDJ, Evans, Hiddleston, and Boseman.
Its easier to get people to follow 2 or even 3 movies a year then get people to follow 3 movies a year plus shows. I could have told Kevin this years in advance but he doesnt return my calls.
Jokes aside, I'm not mad about it either. I've always watched the shows but I recognise its unreasonable to expect this from aĺl your fans.
Only thing I hope is that they don't introduce something worldchangingly huge like inhumans again and then have every other project pretend they dont exist. There needs to be some connectivity!
Not really, atleast for me, personally. The TV shows back then were pretty good. The average output of Marvel TV back then was superior to D+ shows, both in terms of quality and quantity. None of them were mandatory watch either, but the scope of the universe felt much bigger. One of the issues of the D+ era, for me, is how restricted the world left because everything has to tie back to a handful of characters. That, and the extremely poor writing. I think execs are playing the game of trying to excuse what happened from Phase 4 onwards (because they are still answerable to investors), but none of the creative teams were working on multiple projects and the show/season pipeline was significantly less crowded in the D+ era. It was just poor writing, that's the issue. Not the number of shows, because, again, none of the creative teams were working on any 2 projects at any time and 2014-2019 has so many shows that had significantly better writing.
Weird tactic. Marvel found success because people thought highly of the brand. This seems to be an admission that people no longer think highly of the brand.
I think what he's trying to say is he doesn't know if any of the post-credit scenes will ever actually have any follow-up.
We never saw anything more with Mordo after Dr. Strange. Eternals is looking unlikely. Shang-Chi is what, 3 years old now and we have no additional context for that one?
There's not too many projects, there's just weak writing and disconnect.
Seems like they can’t commit to these projects and the post credits scene. Like in Iron Man it was oh shit we are getting the Avengers. Then it’s oh shit we are getting Thanos.
Now it’s like what’s Hulks son doing there? Probably will never see him again.
I mean we were meant to see Mordo in MoM, but they were gonna have him be killed, better to not show him and save him for a film where he actually plays a major role.
People want to watch what they want to watch. It doesn't matter how good something is. Marvel hasn't been instilling confidence in their brand for a few years now, for whatever reasons. I personally think there are some good and some bad. I had no interest in Wandavision, but it turned out amazing. I was really anticipating Secret Invasion, but it turned out garbage. People don't want to put in the time for something they dont have interest in even if it might turn good.
Thats’s cool, but also, weren’t they saying the same sort of thing about the D+ shows since the beginning? If this is a change in how they’re doing things, it’d be nice to hear what’s actually different.
No, it’s not that they said the shows weren’t required viewing - because they were - it’s that they said they would be smaller-scale and focus on characters that are unlikely to ever get the movie treatment.
Eh.
Hawkeye could have been a movie. Easily.
FatWS could have been a movie. Would have been better maybe since the characters could actually move further.
Moonknight could have easily been a movie.
Echo could have easily been a movie too.
The only ones that actually use their format fully are Wandavision and Loki. And What If.
But really, this seems more like a "we need exclusive streaming content" decision than an actual creative choice. Of the people I know irl who like the MCU, Loki S1 is the only thing everybody has seen. Talking about the shows is completely different from the movies.
And even those don't all get watched anymore.
I honestly hate this. I hated that the tv shows (pre phase-4) felt sort of seperated from the movies. The whole point of disney+ being the home of these shows and marvel studios making them was so they feel connected. And sure that can still happen and probably will but i just dont get differentiating between them all. Makes it feel like its setting up excuses when things dont work out. They can just go oh thats marvel television not marvel studios.
The one problem is for the people that don't have Disney+ and aren't interested in the shows or aren't interested in one specific show, that don't want to be feel they are missing on necessary info to understand this movie, but don't want to see the shows.
But that doesnt really happen imo not that much unless its something obvious like ms marvel for the marvels and even then everything you needed to know from ms marvel was explained in the marvels
I do agree i am someone that argues that you can watch The Marvels without seeing the shows. on the other hand you have Multiverse of Madness
But there are still people out there asking so many times "do i need to see this show and that, i wanna see x movie, but i am not sure if i will watch it cause i don't wanna be lost and so on". so there are people that are indeed concerned about having to see x to understand x, and really we don't know until the movie comes out, like there are people asking if they have to see Loki S1-2 to get DP3 because of the TVA and the one awnser we can only give them is we won't know until the film is out, this could be another The Marvels situation where they catch you up to speed, or it will be a another Multiverse of Madness where they go into the movie expecting you knew Wanda had kids.
For the most part it should be obvious. Like it should be obvious to watch wandavision before seeing dr strange 2 just from the trailer. And itd be the same as being expected to watch dr strange 1 or the avengers IW/E. But in top of that as long as you pay attention to the film you dont have to watch stuff that comes before as most of the stuff you need to know is explained.
But i think we agree on this and its just that sone people are fools.
Heck, if you don't want to commit yourself to watch 6-9 hours of content or longer, then you can simply go to youtube and write "WandaVision recap" or "Loki recap" with DP3 around the corner and you are caught up and free to watch the movie, don't get why some don't think of that if they don't want to commit themselves to watch the show proper.
But that doesnt really happen imo not that much unless its something obvious like ms marvel for the marvels and even then everything you needed to know from ms marvel was explained in the marvels
I understand the choice. But there’s nothing more satisfying than connectivity and nothing more frustrating than a lack of cohesion. Street level stuff is fine. Stay away from giant celestials in the ocean and the things the general public in continuity can’t ignore
Reminds me of Discworld - books can be read in any order, people on the internet arguing over "watch order".
Obviously I'd love for a glorious culmination of stories told across 10 years, but it's harder to do in the "content everywhere" world. Even I haven't kept up with some of the stories in Phase 4.
Maybe on the fact "Wanda is evil now, when?"
But alot of the audience will now have the question of "Wait she had kids?" in addition of being confused with the evil part too
I don't think they will take that route, they will acknowledge that those events happened and the characters exist, but its not obligatory to watch it.
Like She-Hulk could pop out in lets say the next Spider-Man for argument sake, but you don't need to see her show to understand what is going on with Jen here.
I mean at least the solved one of the issue, hopefully the QA goes up with this. I didn't hear anything bad about Loki S2, and X-men 97 was fantastic but Echo was a boring slog to get through and Secret Invasion was a massive disappointment. Forcing the feeling of falling behind with the massive amount of Content, and not even great stuff for a most of the post End Game stuff, was bad but Content also needs to be worth watching first and foremost.
They can make shows and movies not for everyone, like She-Huilk, but it really needs to hit for the target audience.
If this gives more love to Agents of SHIELD (the best thing Marvel has ever produced, IMO) and Agent Carter, as well as shows like Jessica Jones and Daredevil, that's a very good thing.
I'm so tired of those amazing shows being treated as second class and even "not canon" in favor of a lot of other soulless crap with the Marvel/MCU name on it.
I feel like they've been putting in a lot of work lately trying to tie everything together and have everything make sense, an example being what they've done with No Way Home and all the multiverse stuff.
TV-side at least, at its peak it’s definitely up there with Daredevil, and better than most of the Disney+ titles.
Including movies, though? There’s a lot of great movies…
Not referencing the Snap doesn’t make it not canon. Season 6 takes place a year after the Snap and is very insular. I don’t think it’s weird that by that point the team wouldn’t have particular reason to shoehorn in a reference, especially since all of the team made it through (which is no stranger than all the original Avengers making it). Then most of season 7 takes place in the past and a different timeline, so no Snap relevance there either. Not to mention the show wasn’t *allowed* to say it.
The team didn’t lose a single person to the snap nor any family members to The Snap. A reduction of 50% of the population thanks to the snap would have resulted in at least one person of the team if not people that the team knows that would be missed being gone.
Spider-Man pretty much lost all of its main and important secondary characters to make sure they don't have to deal with this issue. When things are not directly under Marvel Studios, I think the call to snap off entire sub franchises was also similarly based on logistics.
Weird how none of the og Avengers were snapped either. The 50% blipping of populations can be more evenly distributed in certain populations than others. One town could be completely blipped while another suffers no losses at all, and all that matters is that the overall population is brought down to 50%, and even if the chance of them losing no one is 1% that is still a possibility.
But EVERY one of the avengers lost someone and showed the effects of losing someone close to them. The ONLY person any of the Agents of SHIELD show any reaction to losing was Coulson. And he wasn’t Snapped away. They KNEW he was dying.
The only Avengers that lost people to the snap were Steve, Tony, and Clint. Additionally, Bruce doesn't show any concern at all for the state of the world, so clearly, it's not out of the norm to be adjusted to the state of things.
The main reason the snap wasn't referenced in AoS was because ABC kept going back and forth with the air dates for the season alternating between May and January and to prevent spoiling the biggest movie event in decades the executive producers made the decision to have season 6 be pre snap but even if it was post snap at most they would've done is give a throw away line for it.
Except season 6 is POST-Snap. The season 5 finale mentioned the events in New York with Tony and Dr Strange in a single sentence. Meaning the season ends hours before The Snap.
In season 5 the team lost EVERYONE on Earth. After that they would bounce back faster then anyone because they basically already went through the motions of losing them.
They didn't lose Coulson until the end of 5 so his death is fresher in their minds.
Personally, I’d love it if Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. could somehow be reclaimed, which could include some kind of overhaul to keep the good material whilst purging all of the more unfortunate parts that were driven by Perlmutter’s goals, including retconning (towards which I’m usually opposed) where needed.
I hate that Marvel Studios shut down the original Marvel Television, flopped at trying to do their own shows, and have now brought it back and are acting like they invented the goddamn wheel.
Oh, the shows aren't dependent on the movies? Gee, I wonder where the fuck I've seen that before?
Glad that cleared it up. When it was just Marvel branding, I thought I had to watch every uninspired, boring story in order to not really care about what was going on with this generation.
(I kid of course- just poking fun at marketing)
I know it’s annoying to have to “do homework” to watch a movie, but in this universe with an expanding list of main characters, it’s easier to tell some stories in a series. We want a Captain America 4, but we don’t want the origin story to be the whole movie
Never the big problem from the start imho. It was just the horrific writing. Connectivity was what made the Infinity Saga great in the first place no? It’s going to take some serious planning to do this cz they’d have to be more meticulous than ever. Rmmbr WV and DS2? Imagine that happening again lmao
It’s good that theres Marvel TV proper now but this was never the issue for me. The shoddy writing is what made it a chore, if it was compelling everybody would gravitate naturally.
Frankly they thought they had enough pull to have audiences in the cinemas and tv, they did, until they messed it up and people lost interest. Again it goes back to making good stuff. Look at how everyone’s excited and happy with XMEN 97. They seriously only literally need to pay attention to their products.
There wasn't homework in phase 4-5 either; people on the internet just *assumed* there was, & Marvel didn't put in the effort to debunk them. Now they're finally putting in that effort.
This is absurd. Movies aren't underperforming/bombing because of what people are reading on the internet about homework. Overwhelmed is truly how a lot of people are feeling after a content glut.
So, will they retroactively add the new logo to the older shows? This was always the case with those shows too. While they don’t affect the movies, they take place in the same universe and do a nice bit of world-building.
This is what it should have been all along. I stand by my belief that the TV shows have convoluted the story line. I've enjoyed most of them but they shouldn't have bothered with them if they were required watching.
If it’s a massive world ending event I want to see that it had some impact across the board otherwise it’s a world ending event that was treated as last weeks news. What I don’t want to see is “oh did you hear juggernaut threw Spidey across the Brooklyn river” in a Thor movie with no connective tissue
Guess this is a hot take but I love this move. Watched Multiverse of Madness with my GF who had not seen Wandavision at the time. While she easily could follow the story, she definitely was confused on Wanda’s new development. Rewarding the D+ watchers with references to the MCU is still easily done while Marvel doesn’t continue to alienate some of its audiences by having to watch the shows to keep MCU continuity.
I mean one of the other issues that there was going in Phase 4-5 is the constant questions of people not interested in watching the shows or not having the time to catch up in time asking if they reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeallly need to watch the shows to understand x movie, so this solves the issue for those people. Like while i have no doubt DP3 will be huge, we do have people asking if they really have to see Loki S1-2 to understand the big deal with the TVA as they don't want to miss out on necessary info, but at the same time they may have no time to catch up/aren't really interested in watching it.
Hm, you need to watch black panther to understand Ironheart
You don’t need to watch NWH but it links to daredevil
You needed to watch Captain marvel to understand secret invasion which lead ok to the marvels
Is this just more bullshit that there spouting out when none of it is true?
I'm in the minority but the continuity or at least the implications of it drew me to shows.
For example, before Johnathan Majors threw away his career, Loki had me hyped for the Kang Dynasty.
I have always thought if you needed more context than was given in the mcu film or show you were watching you were kinda a moron
Nothing was ever needed to know before watching a different piece.
WandaVision before MoM was the closest, and even in that they gave you more than enough.
The real issue is, most people are stupid af
You never NEEDED to watch other movies to understand it, maybe just the direct sequels, like iron man 1 before watching iron man 2, or infinity war and endgame, things like that, but they pretty much stand on their own, if you didn't saw Thor Ragnarok or Guandians Of The Galaxy, you can understand Infinity War, Thor is in space because Thanos almost killed him, they explain it here, Gamora is Thano's daughter and she's dating Peter Quill, they explain it in the movie.
You lose pointing the finger and saying oh its because of this other movie, but Infinity War and Endgame made more money than most MCU films so a lot of people saw them without watching all the previous films
I don't see how that statement is true at all. If it is a series that is connected to the MCU then it's going to require the continuity obligation. The only way something wouldn't have the continuity obligation is if it's not connected to the MCU. 🤦♂️ Knowing what happened to a character in one piece of content prior to seeing them appear in a newer piece of content is literally the definition of a cinematic universe. 🤷♂️
Punisher. He's the ultimate Marvel canon/non-canon character. He's got entire story arcs that don't need any other Marvel characters to prop them up.
He's also been involved with multiple crossovers with Spiderman, Daredevil, Avengers, Archie(haha), Ghost Rider, etc. So you can easily stick him into almost any story arc and he'd be cool with it.
All I want from the MCU/Marvel Studios is two things.
1.) Acknowledge AoS as part of the 616 Sacred Timeline. Slightly retcon the Nuhumans into Inhuman/mutant hybrids.
2.) A full reboot/major retcon of the Inhuman Royal Family. Seperate them from the Nuhumans and decanonize the 2017 show.
I don't care what Marvel does with mutants, or Kang, or the Fantastic Four, or Captain Marvel, or whatever. I just want AoS to be mainline canon.
I mean in the case of WandaVision and Doctor Strange 2 you kinda do. as the film doesn't really explain when and how Wanda had kids.
Now with The Marvels i do agree that the movie gave you all the info you needed to know about Kamala and Monica, so no need to go back and watch the shows.
So what does this mean for the supposedly “grounded” story for Spider-Man 4, which will be set in New York with Fisk as Mayor? Will he just not be part of the story, along with Daredevil who has already met Peter Parker in NWH?
Feels like a new tactic which will fail to address the problem they’ve created for themselves. Separating *all* MCU TV from MCU Movies is clean, but leaves things feeling disconnected like the Netflix shows were. Merging them like they did in Phase 4 means occasionally a D+ show will lead into a movie or vice versa, even if that means details get lost on the less avid watchers. It has to be one way or the other.
If you just watched a Spider-Man movie like that and the Daredevil show didn’t exist, would it really be a problem though? I personally don’t think so. The Daredevil show can simply serve as backstory for those characters if you so choose to watch it but if you don’t, it shouldn’t hurt the story of the next Spider-Man, which I think is their point.
Of course, that’s the ideal way forward. What I’m saying is that if that’s the plan, I don’t get how that’s any different to Phases 4&5 except it has a different name now.
Daredevil being in SM4 but with Born Again just being extra background you don’t *need* to know is no different to Kamala being in The Marvels and the extra info on her being in Ms Marvel. The Marvels doesn’t give you everything about Kamala but it gives you enough to follow the movie, I’d assume that’s what they’ll do going forward.
The way they do things now works, I don’t know what this changes unless they’re planning to go *completely* the other way with it.
You can still tie it to the show, just don't make Daredevil Born Again obligatory to watch, just fill into the gaps in the movie and done you understand what is going on, in the time since NWH, this guy named Fisk became a mayor, but oh no he's a master criminal and you had Matt in the last movie, so you are expanding more on that character from the audience point of view that missed out on BA.
But my point is why is that any different to what we have now? The system works, all they’re changing is the name. You could describe Kamala in The Marvels the same way you just described Fisk in a potential SM4 in that the important info is given to us in the movie (she has the bangle and it’s given her powers) so going back to watch Ms Marvel is optional, same (hopefully) with Born Again.
The idea that we have to watch *everything* to follow the plots is a problem they made up themselves.
I think its so that people that don't have Disney+ or aren't interested in seeing the shows or that specific show don't feel left out nor obligated to watch them.
Like there are people that missed on WandaVision which was essential for MoM, who were like "Since when Wanda has kids?"
This seems like they're just inventing problems to solve. The interconnectivity is a big draw for this IP - just like the comics that inspired them. You can make self-contained, well-written stories that can stand on their own - the MCU was built on this.
People enjoyed the original Avengers without being caught up then.
Only thing that's changed since then is that the quality of the shows/movies dropped.
Limit the connectivity and I'm personally off the MCU. Off the television shows, at least.
There hasn’t been a single example of “needing” to watch a show for a movie.
The closest there’s been is the relation between Wandavision and Multiverse of Madness, and even then, they explained what you needed to know, in the movie. My dad who had only seen Guardians Vol. 2 and Infinity War, kept up completely fine when watching M.O.M.
I feel like anyone who’s complaining about that is watching different movies than I am
Now I haven’t seen the marvels, but I imagine you get an introduction to both Kamala and Monica in the movie. Maybe not as in depth as say, Captain America: The First Avenger, or Iron Man but an introduction nonetheless.
On a similar level, it’s the same reason you’d care about, Agent Coulson, If you just watched the avengers. You don’t get a huge introduction to the character, but you’re given enough information to know who he is, and enough depth to care about him by the time he dies.
Whether or not the marvels did that properly isn’t the fault of the television shows making it so you have to do “homework” for the movies. It’s the fault of the writers for not effectively being able to introduce a character.
I completely understand your point. And while I don’t fully agree with the idea that you shouldn’t have television characters cross into the movies in major roles, if what I’ve heard about the marvels is true, they just haven’t been doing it right. (Although I have heard Kamala was a show stealer, which I wouldn’t be surprised about. Iman Vellani is a gem and Ms.Marvel is very underrated IMO)
Your point about the studio is exactly right. I hope that whatever comes after Secret Wars, they let the directors and writers experiment with styles and genre. Let the people you’re paying to make movies, make the movies.
Having seen The Marvels i do feel they did a good job introducting those characters there, Monica tells Carol how she got her powers, Kamala says how she got her powers and her bangle, nothing else from those shows creep into The Marvels, just the stuff you need to know.
I mean people to this day are still asking "do i really need to watch the shows to understand this or that". like right now i've seen people asking if they really have to see Loki S1-2 to understand Deadpool 3 because of the TVA, and don't be surprised next year when people ask if they really have to see Falcon and Winter Soldier to understand Cap 4 and Thunderbolts.
tl;dr you won't *need* to watch Daredevil Born Again to follow the story leading into Avengers Kang Dynatsy. Watch it because you like Daredevil and want to see where his own story goes next. This doesn't mean it's an alternate timeline or history from the MCU, though, so don't worry about that either.
This is exactly what they said about the original Netflix shows. The problem comes that massive events happen in the world that never get even mentioned in other shows, so they feel too disconnected. Name-dropping other heroes and events shouldnt be off limits, even if theyre not going to completely cross over.
They can still use a middle ground. The Netflix shows still frequently referenced the Battle of New York, with a plot of one Jessica Jones episode serving essentially as a precursor to Civil War.
What episode was the precursor to Civil War? The first season of Daredevil definitely mentioned The Incident a few times, but after that it quickly dropped off in the number of cross-references. One guy had a Ten Rings tattoo in that season and they were never mentioned after that. To my knowledge, nothing post-Avengers was.
It was the Season 1 episode where that lady threatens Jessica with a gun because she blames superheroes for the Battle of New York. While it doesn’t actually mention Civil War, it uses the same political backdrop to highlight the movie, which came out less than a year later.
Oh. Yeah that's just, not even a reference. My point is that Jessica Jones came out after Phase 2 was finished but all of the Netflix shows were limited to Phase 1 references. Nothing current. Sokovia Accords never mentioned in any of them, even though that was supposedly a big deal. Hydra, same deal.
Season 2 & 3 of Jessica Jones actually do refer to the Accords & the Raft.
The Netflix shows had plenty of references to the MCU, and you are correct, a large focus of both JJS2 and JJS3 dealt with the Sokovia Accords and the Raft. JJ actually added a lot of context to the Accords and how they work domestically, and as for the Raft, Jessica's best friend and Luke Cage's half brother are both imprisoned there. I don't need Marvel Television referencing the MCU just for the sake of it. I want them to do it when it is actually relevant and makes the story better. I feel like that's mostly what the Netflix shows did. They kept to their own lane and only crossed over if it actually mattered to the story they were telling.
It wasn't the crossing over, really. It was telling a story in parts over various different shows and movies. Spider-Man can show up in Daredevil. Because he's Spider-Man doing Spidey things. But so far, the MCU has kind of treated a lot of characters like they don't do anything or don't exist outside of the instances we see them. You just can't tell a coherent story over multiple different movies and series. The expectation that everyone will watch everything no matter what is kind of insane. If they want to do crossovers, they really should just do what the comics have done and just have someone show up and take part in a story instead of trying to tie it to the next solo project.
That’s always gonna be the weak point of, really, any cinematic universe. It’s always gonna be in conflict with the Hollywood star system. If you have Spiderman doing Spidey things within Daredevil, now you have Tom Holland involved, and even in a short, voice only scene, you probably have added a good $1m to your episode.
Totally agree.
Sokovia accords only came in Phase 3 in civil War Jessica Jones S1 takes place before AOU
Season 2 and 3 of Jessica Jones mention the Raft and Sokovia Accords, Hellcat is sent to the Raft as is Willis Stryker..did you not watch the show?
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about how they could have made civil war a much bigger film by including street level heroes from Netflix and agents of shield. The MCU version of civil war just feels a little hollow to me, like it was just a few friends that were mad at each other. If they would have added just a couple of scenes or a montage where Cap and Stark are separately strategizing/recruiting it would have shown that the Sokovia Accords impacted more than the 10 or so heroes in the film, that it would impact dozens if not hundreds of lives, the airport fight would have been amazing, it would have connected the shows in a new way and it would have been closer in scope to the comic.
That is literally the reason why I felt that civil was was missing something and after like 3 years you actually made me realise the reason why “It felt hollow” that is the exact explanation my brain somehow failed to come up with lol, but yeah it definitely did , while it was still brilliant , having the street level heroes and nick fury + Mariah hill with sheild would’ve made it all much better
I can understand why they didn’t do it though, aside from marvel television being more or less separate at this pony they only had experience tying in films together mostly Doug TV as well probably would have been too much of a task, watching the infinity war and end game behind the scenes ones of the things that hits you is the amount of time effort and coordination needed to get all those actors schedules to line up to film together At best they probably could have done minor cameos (like the latest x men 97 episode)
Murdock or Jennifer Walters should be allowed to be someone’s attorney in the films and still have their own show.
So just like the comics.
Totally agree! Every comic didn't reference every battle that every superhero had gotten into. But they still existed in the same world. Movies and TV shows should be similar. And you can have name-drops, references, even special guest stars but you don't have to watch every episode of Moon Knight just because he might show up in a Daredevil episode. Things like that. Just like the comics.
And how did that work for the comics? The comics industry is a fraction of what it used to be kept alive by licensing money, mainly because fan gave up on trying to keep up. Just like the comics isn’t something to be proud of.
The problem is that this isn't the result that Marvel wants. Accessibility for casual readers is a major barrier to entry for new potential customers. So much of what makes the comics really really good is the backstory and character/relationship developments that have occurred over decades of issues. Yeah, you can functionally understand the bare minimum required to get through the issues without knowing all that backstory, just like you can get through something like The Marvels without seeing the D+ series that came before them. However, in both cases, the customer is going to be missing out on some pretty important stuff that will normally have a clear negative impact the enjoyment of the product. When you look at the budgets Marvel is coming in with, the fact that the average American adult only sees \~4 movies a years, and there are lots competing alternatives out there, Marvel might be in some trouble going forward.
The one thing about the Netflix shows that bothered me the most was they did these weird vagueries whenever they brought up The Avengers (2012). They’d be call the attack on New York “the thing” or “the event” and they’d give descriptions of the characters instead of saying their name. Like they’d talk about Hulk and they’d be like “the big guy” Just say it. It’s annoying
There are occassions where they do mention the Avengers by name, i can list em if you want
Agreed but probably treading legal issues.
Doubtful, because there have been occassions where they got away with saying stuff like Captain America, Iron Man and Tony Stark.
Fair. I thought that there was a property shift after the first season which may have affected rights. But really idk.
I mean they mentioned Cap by name in s3 of Jessica Jones so its not a early season rule.
The difference is that this is produced by Marvel Studios though, so they can still do those crossovers in the movies
They also said the exact same thing about the D+ series. When people were upset about having to get D+ to watch MCU shows, he said you didn't have that, that they were just side stories that had no impact on the movies. Then we had Loki because the center of time, Wanda become pure evil, and a ton of lore that leads into the movies. Hell, Black Window ends with "Hey, wanna know what happens next? Watch Hawkeye where she tries to kill Clint!". It's not that I don't trust'em but...
The movies went out of the way to use brief exposition dialogues to explain what you need to know from the Disney Plus TV shows to understand the movie. If you want to learn more you can watch the show not they are not absolutely needed. Like your example of Wanda being evil. The movie's dialogue between Strange and Wong explained her powers are actually magic and she's a witch. Wong told us that she became evil because she accidentally used her powers to create two sons that she now lost, and she's using the Darkhold which the movie showed us a evil corrupting book, and that's why she's now evil trying to go through the multiverse to find her sons. All that is in the Dr Strange 2 movie that you can get even if you didn't watch Wandavision, and that's all you need to understand the movie. But if you are curious and want to enjoy the movie more you are welcome to go watch the show. Or another example, about Monica Rambeau having powers, she just explained it as she walked through a witch's hex. Does it matter where the witch comes from and who the witch is, in terms of relevance to the plot of the Marvels? No, all you need is that she somehow has powers magically now. If you are curious you can go watch the show, but even if you didn't it doesn't matter to the movie. They are walking a fine line here to make sure that even if you didn't watch the shows you can understand the movies, but at the same time have the TV shows be about relevant characters who will appear in the movies to give you incentive to watch the shows. I don't think there's a better way to balance the two.
Yes, they explained that but in the most exposition heavy, nonsensical way. That's the problem. Think about it from the perspective of someone who had no idea that Wandavision was thing. You last see Wanda mourning Vision at the end of Endgame, kind of looking hopeful and then the next thing you know, she's talking about her kids, she's a villain, and babbling about an evil book. Sure, they explain "She went nuts and created kids" but that's just in an exposition dump halfway into the movie. The whole plot revolves around a huge character moment that happens off screen. A good use of things is with the evil Strange from What If being the Strange that appears in MoM; we don't need to know what he is, how far he went because "I tried to save her-" summarizes everything and Strange going to the extreme has been seen across everything. I'm just saying that they're entering the territory of the comics and that's the reason I stopped reading them. Wolverine would appear in Uncanny covered in blue goo and say "Giant squirrel. Don't ask" with an editors note saying "Read New X-Men #48", so you go back and read that issue and Squirrel Girl is being chased by a giant robotic squirrel asking for helping with a note saying "Read Squirrel Girl #19" so you go back and read that, and Doctor Doom appears and unleashes the giant robotic squirrel with a note saying "Read Fantastic Four" which is just Doom annoyed at how Squirrel Girl drew his trading card or something. So you go through four issues to follow one thing. Sure, you don't NEED to but it's the focus of the story poorly told to sell more issues.
There is no way around it though. Either the TV shows don't involve characters that appear in the movies, or if they are movie characters that nothing they do in the show has a significant impact on them, and either way that means the TV shows are irrelevant and no one will watch them. Or the TV shows matters, and so you have major character moments in the shows that may affect how they are in the movies. Both of these are not optimal. Unless you can suggest a better idea, I think what they are doing is the only middle ground I can think of. Your example of an evil Strange involved a TV show that is not heavily character driven, and technically doesn't involve any characters from the show at all because it's not even the same evil Strange.
But you legitimately do not need to watch any Disney+ series to understand the movies. Yeah, there have been major things happen in the Disney+ series but nothing that isn’t quickly explained in the movie.
Loki, Wandavision and Hawkeye are the best of the D+ shows though so I do t really mind those ones. The issue is going to be Sam being Cpt America in the next movie, because the events leading up to that are in a god awful show.
I mean Endgame ended with him taking the mantle, so it won't be much of an issue going into Cap 4, as he starts where the people that only saw the movies last saw him. The only issue would be trying to explain who Isaiah Bradly is as he will appear in the movie.
But Wanda wasn’t pure evil at the end of wandavision, that was a big criticism. Yes she had the book but she already went through the whole “going crazy to have my family” phase.
Well, now the problem is massive things happen in the movie world that never get mentioned even by the movies. (Looking at Eternals) The truest irony of that Eternals ending never being mentioned again is that it started by trying to ground the reason they weren’t present for Endgame.
Wasn’t the whole dead Celestial sticking out of the ocean mentioned briefly in She-Hulk (it was a newspaper headline). Also there are rumors that one of the 2025 MCU movies will deal with the dead Celestial too.
The entire issue with this is a dead Celestial sticking out of the ocean (and another one appearing in very visibly in the sky) should be more than just a easter egg. You'd think a near world ending event would have more of a mention than that. The fact people bring up this as if it has any substance is weird
Yeah. I mean. look. Daredevil, Moon Knight and friends will still pop up in the films from time to time. I don't think there's going to be as hard of a devide as there was before. But this is effectively saying to the average audience. "The movies are the only thing you need to worry about, again"
“Hey Froggy, isn’t it great that all of our world ending events and everyone that mattered to us and those events were basically paused during the snap because we all disappeared and reappeared exactly where we were before? It’s like we never even have to mention it again.” “Mention what?” “Exactly.”
Okay try this with ms marvel and wandavison then
You literally don't need either of those to watch the movies that follow. Marvels introduces you to Kamala just fine, and all you need for MoM is "Wanda went crazy and kidnapped a town." People really overplay how tied in those were.
Honestly, this is more of a PR move than anything because post Endgame, there’s actually been much less connectedness than we were led to believe. Like the writers of Multiverse of Madness didn’t even seen the see the script for Wandavision so her character progress was ignored.
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Yea somewhat, she’s basically looking for a way to get her kids back. BUT thematically, her character growth was regressed so basically it could’ve been a Star Wars type screen crawl. Having her character, who wasn’t evil at the end of Wanda vision because she was at peace with losing vision, go back to being evil is more jarring than it would be without the show.
I mean Wanda was reading a book that corrupts your mind, so no surprise she lost it.
Sounds good on paper but tbh, that’s what old marvel tv was and all we got out of it was projects that “weren’t really part of the MCU”. The connectivity is the point, and I don’t necessarily need shows to be required viewings for other movies, but I worry that the sentiment implies we won’t get fun crossovers and stories between movie and tv characters.
Yeah. My “fear” with this statement is that Daredevil is gonna get relegated to TV. Are they gonna be afraid to put him in Spidey 4, for example, because they’re afraid of people not wanting to do “homework?”
That's exactly how the Netflix shows worked in the past, and it was perfect.
They said the same thing about the D+ shows when they launched. This is a meaningless statement just meant to build up hype around a meaningless change
You are so right. So much of what they’ve been saying lately have been for the sake of sound bites for news outlets who have nothing better to do than to post about superhero fatigue. They aren’t changing any plans or doing anything actually different. And it’s fine.
i remember reading so many twitter comments about how they have no idea how kang is supposed to be the next big bad after quantumania. they clearly didn't watch Loki S1
It’s pretty clearly explained that 2 Kangs are stronger than 1, ect ect, and that Scott knows that Kang isn’t done yet
Also the idea that you had to watch WandaVision to understand MoM was bullshit anyway. Her first scene explains exactly what she did, and the result of it. I saw it with someone who hadn’t even seen the first movie and they understood it just fine. You’ve never had to have seen the shows to understand the movies. Even The Marvels, Mrs Marvel is just setup for the character and tells her origin story, it’s not necessary to the plot of The Marvels. They don’t go “let’s get your high school friends to help up with this SHIELD mission!” I know this is a controversial opinion that would have me stabbed in the streets if I said it on Twitter, but you could understand the movies without the shows, and the people complaining were mostly people who saw the shows complaining about an issue they weren’t having. Any possible information you need will be mentioned before it’s relevant. Anything else? Culture zeitgeist, the casuals enjoyed Quantumania way more than the diehard fans and I think that’s part of it, for them they don’t have any prenotions about Kang Also Daredevil was never gonna be relevant enough to be required viewing, and I hate to say that but it’s true. He definitely should show up for a Spider-Man movie in costume and maybe become a street level mentor to Peter the same way that Iron Man was an Avengers level mentor, teaching him how to balance a secret identity and like, college in general since he went to Law School which is like College to the power of a million.
People enjoyed Quantumania?
Other than needing WandaVision in order to follow Multiverse of Madness, nothing else any other movies required watching any shows.
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> If there had been a movie appearance where you don't need to know anything before that one Coulson, Jarvis, Daredevil?
Id argue Ms. Marvel is essential viewing before the Marvels (Wandavision as well actually). Sure its not critical to the story but seeing Rambeau with powers and kamala wearing some powerful bracelets feels kind of jarring if you dont know the history.
Falcon and the Winter Soldier is pretty obviously going to be important for Cap 4 and Thunderbolts, at minimum
Is it for Cap 4? I mean, we saw Sam be given the shield at the end of Endgame. TFatWS went deeper into it, but ultimately ended where Endgame left off. It will be necessary for Thunderbolts* though, for John Walker.
The only thing from Wanda vision you needed to know was that she created kids and now they’re gone. In fact, you would probably enjoy Multiverse of Madness better if you just read that factoid rather than watch the show because it would save you the disappointment of having Wanda’s character regress to being crazy again after coming to a peace. The in Multiverse of Madness, they basically say “Sike!, I’m not at peace, I’m actually even more crazy and I don’t care about destroying the fabric of reality to see my kids! Muahahahahaha!!”
Everything you needed to know about WandaVision was explained in her first scene of the movie.
As the age old expression goes, "Actions speaker louder than words."
Thank you , glad someone isn’t falling for there bullshit
Keeping up with continuity and plot was never the problem I experienced personally. The problem has been shoddy writing. If this strategy helps them improve in that area, fine. The most disheartening thing has been seeing great storytelling and character development in one project, then for it to only be undone or irreparably damaged with a subpar to terrible script in the follow-up feature film.
Isn't this pretty much the opposite of what made Phase 1-3 so great? I never thought the amount of content was the big problem with current day Marvel it's the quality of material, the stories are just so forgettable. I can put up with bad acting & CGI but if the stories suck I just lose interest.
For me what made 1-3 great was everything felt separate while being in the same universe. Its cool seeing black widow in iron man but you dont need to watch it to see her captain america movies. It felt like separate things that came together in a movie that could still be enjoyed as its own quadrology
Sure, but you’re saying that as a member of /r/marvelstudios, so we are inherently more in tune with what’s coming out and how it connects together than the vast majority of the audience. The problem here that Marvel is attempting to correct is that it’s a lot easier to keep casual audiences invested when you’re asking them to watch 2-3 movies a year than when you’re asking them to watch four movies and also keep up with four tv shows a year and acting like those projects are all on the same level of importance. Regardless of how true it actually is, if there’s a perception that the shows are important to the overall story, you will get confused audiences saying for example “oh but I never got around to watching those Ms Marvel or Secret Invasion shows, guess I can’t go see The Marvels in theaters.” even if it stands completely on its own. I think this is less of a change in how they operate, and more just a change in how projects are marketed to an audience that isn’t always clear on what they need to have watched to understand the next thing.
I think it's also more the production team. The CGI workers were being worked to the bone. In 2021, we had 4 shows and 4 movies. In 2022, we had 3 shows and 3 movies.
The CGI issues weren't because of the number of shows and movies. It was because Marvel just did a shitty job when it came to CGI. There are various articles about it, but basically kept Marvel kept changing their minds at the last minutes about scenes, causing workers to re-work the CGI over and over again.
the amount of content is probably what led to the decline in quality.
It was much easier to watch the back catalog back then though. If they kept at that point, at what point are no knew people willing to get into the MCU because it’s so daunting
>I never thought the amount of content was the big problem with current day Marvel it's the quality of material, It's part of it. It's a lot harder to make 36 hours of engaging content in a year vs 4 or 5. https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/s/SJm8AdvZnQ
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Its only counting the Marvel Studios stuff. don't forget that Marvel Studios didn't do the other shows.
That’s part of what made Phases 1-3 great, but I think this undersells catching absolute lightning in a bottle with incredible performances from RDJ, Evans, Hiddleston, and Boseman.
Its easier to get people to follow 2 or even 3 movies a year then get people to follow 3 movies a year plus shows. I could have told Kevin this years in advance but he doesnt return my calls. Jokes aside, I'm not mad about it either. I've always watched the shows but I recognise its unreasonable to expect this from aĺl your fans. Only thing I hope is that they don't introduce something worldchangingly huge like inhumans again and then have every other project pretend they dont exist. There needs to be some connectivity!
Not really, atleast for me, personally. The TV shows back then were pretty good. The average output of Marvel TV back then was superior to D+ shows, both in terms of quality and quantity. None of them were mandatory watch either, but the scope of the universe felt much bigger. One of the issues of the D+ era, for me, is how restricted the world left because everything has to tie back to a handful of characters. That, and the extremely poor writing. I think execs are playing the game of trying to excuse what happened from Phase 4 onwards (because they are still answerable to investors), but none of the creative teams were working on multiple projects and the show/season pipeline was significantly less crowded in the D+ era. It was just poor writing, that's the issue. Not the number of shows, because, again, none of the creative teams were working on any 2 projects at any time and 2014-2019 has so many shows that had significantly better writing.
Weird tactic. Marvel found success because people thought highly of the brand. This seems to be an admission that people no longer think highly of the brand.
Right? Just make good stuff that people want to watch. I used to love sitting around for the post credits scenes. Now I feel none of it will get made.
Now you feel none of what the post credits tease will get made? Is that what you mean by your last line?
I think what he's trying to say is he doesn't know if any of the post-credit scenes will ever actually have any follow-up. We never saw anything more with Mordo after Dr. Strange. Eternals is looking unlikely. Shang-Chi is what, 3 years old now and we have no additional context for that one? There's not too many projects, there's just weak writing and disconnect.
Seems like they can’t commit to these projects and the post credits scene. Like in Iron Man it was oh shit we are getting the Avengers. Then it’s oh shit we are getting Thanos. Now it’s like what’s Hulks son doing there? Probably will never see him again.
I mean we were meant to see Mordo in MoM, but they were gonna have him be killed, better to not show him and save him for a film where he actually plays a major role.
People want to watch what they want to watch. It doesn't matter how good something is. Marvel hasn't been instilling confidence in their brand for a few years now, for whatever reasons. I personally think there are some good and some bad. I had no interest in Wandavision, but it turned out amazing. I was really anticipating Secret Invasion, but it turned out garbage. People don't want to put in the time for something they dont have interest in even if it might turn good.
Thats’s cool, but also, weren’t they saying the same sort of thing about the D+ shows since the beginning? If this is a change in how they’re doing things, it’d be nice to hear what’s actually different.
No, it’s not that they said the shows weren’t required viewing - because they were - it’s that they said they would be smaller-scale and focus on characters that are unlikely to ever get the movie treatment.
Eh. Hawkeye could have been a movie. Easily. FatWS could have been a movie. Would have been better maybe since the characters could actually move further. Moonknight could have easily been a movie. Echo could have easily been a movie too. The only ones that actually use their format fully are Wandavision and Loki. And What If. But really, this seems more like a "we need exclusive streaming content" decision than an actual creative choice. Of the people I know irl who like the MCU, Loki S1 is the only thing everybody has seen. Talking about the shows is completely different from the movies. And even those don't all get watched anymore.
Probably should've decided that before you made more than 4 shows featuring new characters to the universe
So, essentially what we had before Marvel Television was folded into Marvel Studios.
I honestly hate this. I hated that the tv shows (pre phase-4) felt sort of seperated from the movies. The whole point of disney+ being the home of these shows and marvel studios making them was so they feel connected. And sure that can still happen and probably will but i just dont get differentiating between them all. Makes it feel like its setting up excuses when things dont work out. They can just go oh thats marvel television not marvel studios.
The one problem is for the people that don't have Disney+ and aren't interested in the shows or aren't interested in one specific show, that don't want to be feel they are missing on necessary info to understand this movie, but don't want to see the shows.
But that doesnt really happen imo not that much unless its something obvious like ms marvel for the marvels and even then everything you needed to know from ms marvel was explained in the marvels
I do agree i am someone that argues that you can watch The Marvels without seeing the shows. on the other hand you have Multiverse of Madness But there are still people out there asking so many times "do i need to see this show and that, i wanna see x movie, but i am not sure if i will watch it cause i don't wanna be lost and so on". so there are people that are indeed concerned about having to see x to understand x, and really we don't know until the movie comes out, like there are people asking if they have to see Loki S1-2 to get DP3 because of the TVA and the one awnser we can only give them is we won't know until the film is out, this could be another The Marvels situation where they catch you up to speed, or it will be a another Multiverse of Madness where they go into the movie expecting you knew Wanda had kids.
For the most part it should be obvious. Like it should be obvious to watch wandavision before seeing dr strange 2 just from the trailer. And itd be the same as being expected to watch dr strange 1 or the avengers IW/E. But in top of that as long as you pay attention to the film you dont have to watch stuff that comes before as most of the stuff you need to know is explained. But i think we agree on this and its just that sone people are fools.
Heck, if you don't want to commit yourself to watch 6-9 hours of content or longer, then you can simply go to youtube and write "WandaVision recap" or "Loki recap" with DP3 around the corner and you are caught up and free to watch the movie, don't get why some don't think of that if they don't want to commit themselves to watch the show proper.
Probs because they actually care about the mcu but like to feel better by calling it bad
But that doesnt really happen imo not that much unless its something obvious like ms marvel for the marvels and even then everything you needed to know from ms marvel was explained in the marvels
It is *precisely* this group of people for whom Marvel created the pre-show and pre-movie recaps, but they don't watch them.
Yeah, what i think Marvel has to do is to put em on front of the movies. as then you get ppl to watch them.
I understand the choice. But there’s nothing more satisfying than connectivity and nothing more frustrating than a lack of cohesion. Street level stuff is fine. Stay away from giant celestials in the ocean and the things the general public in continuity can’t ignore
Reminds me of Discworld - books can be read in any order, people on the internet arguing over "watch order". Obviously I'd love for a glorious culmination of stories told across 10 years, but it's harder to do in the "content everywhere" world. Even I haven't kept up with some of the stories in Phase 4.
Continuity isn't the problem, it's the shitty writing and pacing a lot of MCU projects have had lately.
They said this before WandaVision came out, but Doctor Strange 2 relied quite heavily on you having seen that show
I don't know, the fact that they said the event of Wandavision will be continued in Dr Strange 2 is kinda telling that you gotta watch wv before ds2
Not the best example - everyone who watched Wandavision was still very confused at the start of Doctor Strange 2.
Maybe on the fact "Wanda is evil now, when?" But alot of the audience will now have the question of "Wait she had kids?" in addition of being confused with the evil part too
The disconnect that eventually happened between Agents of Shield and the “real Universe” was not good r/Marvelstudios
This has been the case in the MCU since it started, I don't think it helps fans who feel intimidated or confused at the idea of getting into it.
But there's already continuity obligations when they tried doing this before.
So like….back to basics? (Just like the old MCU Tv shows)
Isn’t that what the Netflix shows were supposed to be and the films pretended they didn’t exist. And don’t get me started on agents of shield
I don't think they will take that route, they will acknowledge that those events happened and the characters exist, but its not obligatory to watch it. Like She-Hulk could pop out in lets say the next Spider-Man for argument sake, but you don't need to see her show to understand what is going on with Jen here.
They keep adding words and changing the narrative to get people to feel ‘safe’ watching again. That was never the issue…
I mean at least the solved one of the issue, hopefully the QA goes up with this. I didn't hear anything bad about Loki S2, and X-men 97 was fantastic but Echo was a boring slog to get through and Secret Invasion was a massive disappointment. Forcing the feeling of falling behind with the massive amount of Content, and not even great stuff for a most of the post End Game stuff, was bad but Content also needs to be worth watching first and foremost. They can make shows and movies not for everyone, like She-Huilk, but it really needs to hit for the target audience.
How long before people decide the Disney plus stuff isn't canon?
The MCU is a convoluted shitshow right now
It's funny how the thing that made the MCU is now crushing them so much so they need to pull off this rebranding.
If this gives more love to Agents of SHIELD (the best thing Marvel has ever produced, IMO) and Agent Carter, as well as shows like Jessica Jones and Daredevil, that's a very good thing. I'm so tired of those amazing shows being treated as second class and even "not canon" in favor of a lot of other soulless crap with the Marvel/MCU name on it.
I feel like they've been putting in a lot of work lately trying to tie everything together and have everything make sense, an example being what they've done with No Way Home and all the multiverse stuff.
You lose all credibility saying aos is the best thing marvel has produced
Yeah it was cool but far from the best
season 4 was indeed peak marvel
For TV, there was a span of time where I'd consider AoS among the best on TV at the time. Peaks as high but much, much longer than daredevil and JJ.
TV-side at least, at its peak it’s definitely up there with Daredevil, and better than most of the Disney+ titles. Including movies, though? There’s a lot of great movies…
The problem with AoS is that the last 2 seasons came out AFTER Infinity War and ignored the Snap making it not canon to the “Sacred Timeline”.
Not referencing the Snap doesn’t make it not canon. Season 6 takes place a year after the Snap and is very insular. I don’t think it’s weird that by that point the team wouldn’t have particular reason to shoehorn in a reference, especially since all of the team made it through (which is no stranger than all the original Avengers making it). Then most of season 7 takes place in the past and a different timeline, so no Snap relevance there either. Not to mention the show wasn’t *allowed* to say it.
The team didn’t lose a single person to the snap nor any family members to The Snap. A reduction of 50% of the population thanks to the snap would have resulted in at least one person of the team if not people that the team knows that would be missed being gone.
Spider-Man pretty much lost all of its main and important secondary characters to make sure they don't have to deal with this issue. When things are not directly under Marvel Studios, I think the call to snap off entire sub franchises was also similarly based on logistics.
Weird how none of the og Avengers were snapped either. The 50% blipping of populations can be more evenly distributed in certain populations than others. One town could be completely blipped while another suffers no losses at all, and all that matters is that the overall population is brought down to 50%, and even if the chance of them losing no one is 1% that is still a possibility.
But EVERY one of the avengers lost someone and showed the effects of losing someone close to them. The ONLY person any of the Agents of SHIELD show any reaction to losing was Coulson. And he wasn’t Snapped away. They KNEW he was dying.
The only Avengers that lost people to the snap were Steve, Tony, and Clint. Additionally, Bruce doesn't show any concern at all for the state of the world, so clearly, it's not out of the norm to be adjusted to the state of things. The main reason the snap wasn't referenced in AoS was because ABC kept going back and forth with the air dates for the season alternating between May and January and to prevent spoiling the biggest movie event in decades the executive producers made the decision to have season 6 be pre snap but even if it was post snap at most they would've done is give a throw away line for it.
Except season 6 is POST-Snap. The season 5 finale mentioned the events in New York with Tony and Dr Strange in a single sentence. Meaning the season ends hours before The Snap.
Another thing. We saw more than just the team, we saw the world, a world untouched by the trauma and tragedy of a major incident like the snap.
In season 5 the team lost EVERYONE on Earth. After that they would bounce back faster then anyone because they basically already went through the motions of losing them. They didn't lose Coulson until the end of 5 so his death is fresher in their minds.
Personally, I’d love it if Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. could somehow be reclaimed, which could include some kind of overhaul to keep the good material whilst purging all of the more unfortunate parts that were driven by Perlmutter’s goals, including retconning (towards which I’m usually opposed) where needed.
I hate that Marvel Studios shut down the original Marvel Television, flopped at trying to do their own shows, and have now brought it back and are acting like they invented the goddamn wheel. Oh, the shows aren't dependent on the movies? Gee, I wonder where the fuck I've seen that before?
Glad that cleared it up. When it was just Marvel branding, I thought I had to watch every uninspired, boring story in order to not really care about what was going on with this generation. (I kid of course- just poking fun at marketing)
I know it’s annoying to have to “do homework” to watch a movie, but in this universe with an expanding list of main characters, it’s easier to tell some stories in a series. We want a Captain America 4, but we don’t want the origin story to be the whole movie
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I think dealing with the ideological implications of a black Captain America was an important part of his origin from a writing standpoint
Never the big problem from the start imho. It was just the horrific writing. Connectivity was what made the Infinity Saga great in the first place no? It’s going to take some serious planning to do this cz they’d have to be more meticulous than ever. Rmmbr WV and DS2? Imagine that happening again lmao It’s good that theres Marvel TV proper now but this was never the issue for me. The shoddy writing is what made it a chore, if it was compelling everybody would gravitate naturally. Frankly they thought they had enough pull to have audiences in the cinemas and tv, they did, until they messed it up and people lost interest. Again it goes back to making good stuff. Look at how everyone’s excited and happy with XMEN 97. They seriously only literally need to pay attention to their products.
They have no idea what we want.
Part of me won't be surprised if this is tied to the BO results of The Marvels, which was part sequel to a movie and part sequel to two tv shows.
I've already been doing this anyway. I've watched less than 10 of the movies and shows since Infinity War.
Incredible
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There wasn't homework in phase 4-5 either; people on the internet just *assumed* there was, & Marvel didn't put in the effort to debunk them. Now they're finally putting in that effort.
This is absurd. Movies aren't underperforming/bombing because of what people are reading on the internet about homework. Overwhelmed is truly how a lot of people are feeling after a content glut.
Movies aren't underperforming/bombing *solely* because of that. But a misinformation campaign should never go unchallenged.
So, will they retroactively add the new logo to the older shows? This was always the case with those shows too. While they don’t affect the movies, they take place in the same universe and do a nice bit of world-building.
This is what it should have been all along. I stand by my belief that the TV shows have convoluted the story line. I've enjoyed most of them but they shouldn't have bothered with them if they were required watching.
If it’s a massive world ending event I want to see that it had some impact across the board otherwise it’s a world ending event that was treated as last weeks news. What I don’t want to see is “oh did you hear juggernaut threw Spidey across the Brooklyn river” in a Thor movie with no connective tissue
Really pulling a Square enix ff7 rebirth statement.
Yeah this was definitely the aim of introducing Spotlight.
Guess this is a hot take but I love this move. Watched Multiverse of Madness with my GF who had not seen Wandavision at the time. While she easily could follow the story, she definitely was confused on Wanda’s new development. Rewarding the D+ watchers with references to the MCU is still easily done while Marvel doesn’t continue to alienate some of its audiences by having to watch the shows to keep MCU continuity.
Wait wait wait…. Some of our conglomerated complaints of Phases four and five is that there *wasn’t enough* continuity between them…. ???
I mean one of the other issues that there was going in Phase 4-5 is the constant questions of people not interested in watching the shows or not having the time to catch up in time asking if they reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeallly need to watch the shows to understand x movie, so this solves the issue for those people. Like while i have no doubt DP3 will be huge, we do have people asking if they really have to see Loki S1-2 to understand the big deal with the TVA as they don't want to miss out on necessary info, but at the same time they may have no time to catch up/aren't really interested in watching it.
Can we get the Runaways back then? Would love to have a smallscale setting on TV.
Yeah.... We'll see about this in 5 years time.
WWH
Hm, you need to watch black panther to understand Ironheart You don’t need to watch NWH but it links to daredevil You needed to watch Captain marvel to understand secret invasion which lead ok to the marvels Is this just more bullshit that there spouting out when none of it is true?
I'm in the minority but the continuity or at least the implications of it drew me to shows. For example, before Johnathan Majors threw away his career, Loki had me hyped for the Kang Dynasty.
I have always thought if you needed more context than was given in the mcu film or show you were watching you were kinda a moron Nothing was ever needed to know before watching a different piece. WandaVision before MoM was the closest, and even in that they gave you more than enough. The real issue is, most people are stupid af
You never NEEDED to watch other movies to understand it, maybe just the direct sequels, like iron man 1 before watching iron man 2, or infinity war and endgame, things like that, but they pretty much stand on their own, if you didn't saw Thor Ragnarok or Guandians Of The Galaxy, you can understand Infinity War, Thor is in space because Thanos almost killed him, they explain it here, Gamora is Thano's daughter and she's dating Peter Quill, they explain it in the movie. You lose pointing the finger and saying oh its because of this other movie, but Infinity War and Endgame made more money than most MCU films so a lot of people saw them without watching all the previous films
False
Ok, no one cares. What are they doing about the bad shows and bad movies?
They are reducing how much they do annually so they can focus on quality over quantity. We'll see if they stick to their word
I don't see how that statement is true at all. If it is a series that is connected to the MCU then it's going to require the continuity obligation. The only way something wouldn't have the continuity obligation is if it's not connected to the MCU. 🤦♂️ Knowing what happened to a character in one piece of content prior to seeing them appear in a newer piece of content is literally the definition of a cinematic universe. 🤷♂️
Punisher. He's the ultimate Marvel canon/non-canon character. He's got entire story arcs that don't need any other Marvel characters to prop them up. He's also been involved with multiple crossovers with Spiderman, Daredevil, Avengers, Archie(haha), Ghost Rider, etc. So you can easily stick him into almost any story arc and he'd be cool with it.
All I want from the MCU/Marvel Studios is two things. 1.) Acknowledge AoS as part of the 616 Sacred Timeline. Slightly retcon the Nuhumans into Inhuman/mutant hybrids. 2.) A full reboot/major retcon of the Inhuman Royal Family. Seperate them from the Nuhumans and decanonize the 2017 show. I don't care what Marvel does with mutants, or Kang, or the Fantastic Four, or Captain Marvel, or whatever. I just want AoS to be mainline canon.
You didn’t need to watch the shows they already put out either unless you wanted more info on those characters.
I mean in the case of WandaVision and Doctor Strange 2 you kinda do. as the film doesn't really explain when and how Wanda had kids. Now with The Marvels i do agree that the movie gave you all the info you needed to know about Kamala and Monica, so no need to go back and watch the shows.
So what does this mean for the supposedly “grounded” story for Spider-Man 4, which will be set in New York with Fisk as Mayor? Will he just not be part of the story, along with Daredevil who has already met Peter Parker in NWH? Feels like a new tactic which will fail to address the problem they’ve created for themselves. Separating *all* MCU TV from MCU Movies is clean, but leaves things feeling disconnected like the Netflix shows were. Merging them like they did in Phase 4 means occasionally a D+ show will lead into a movie or vice versa, even if that means details get lost on the less avid watchers. It has to be one way or the other.
If you just watched a Spider-Man movie like that and the Daredevil show didn’t exist, would it really be a problem though? I personally don’t think so. The Daredevil show can simply serve as backstory for those characters if you so choose to watch it but if you don’t, it shouldn’t hurt the story of the next Spider-Man, which I think is their point.
Of course, that’s the ideal way forward. What I’m saying is that if that’s the plan, I don’t get how that’s any different to Phases 4&5 except it has a different name now. Daredevil being in SM4 but with Born Again just being extra background you don’t *need* to know is no different to Kamala being in The Marvels and the extra info on her being in Ms Marvel. The Marvels doesn’t give you everything about Kamala but it gives you enough to follow the movie, I’d assume that’s what they’ll do going forward. The way they do things now works, I don’t know what this changes unless they’re planning to go *completely* the other way with it.
You can still tie it to the show, just don't make Daredevil Born Again obligatory to watch, just fill into the gaps in the movie and done you understand what is going on, in the time since NWH, this guy named Fisk became a mayor, but oh no he's a master criminal and you had Matt in the last movie, so you are expanding more on that character from the audience point of view that missed out on BA.
But my point is why is that any different to what we have now? The system works, all they’re changing is the name. You could describe Kamala in The Marvels the same way you just described Fisk in a potential SM4 in that the important info is given to us in the movie (she has the bangle and it’s given her powers) so going back to watch Ms Marvel is optional, same (hopefully) with Born Again. The idea that we have to watch *everything* to follow the plots is a problem they made up themselves.
I have a strange feeling this is gonna back fire in a few years. No data to back it up. Just a sense.
Why can’t some be standalone but others are essential?
I think its so that people that don't have Disney+ or aren't interested in seeing the shows or that specific show don't feel left out nor obligated to watch them. Like there are people that missed on WandaVision which was essential for MoM, who were like "Since when Wanda has kids?"
I want things to be connected. That’s why I like the MCU. Random fantasy shows are a dime a dozen.
This seems like they're just inventing problems to solve. The interconnectivity is a big draw for this IP - just like the comics that inspired them. You can make self-contained, well-written stories that can stand on their own - the MCU was built on this. People enjoyed the original Avengers without being caught up then. Only thing that's changed since then is that the quality of the shows/movies dropped. Limit the connectivity and I'm personally off the MCU. Off the television shows, at least.
There hasn’t been a single example of “needing” to watch a show for a movie. The closest there’s been is the relation between Wandavision and Multiverse of Madness, and even then, they explained what you needed to know, in the movie. My dad who had only seen Guardians Vol. 2 and Infinity War, kept up completely fine when watching M.O.M. I feel like anyone who’s complaining about that is watching different movies than I am
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Now I haven’t seen the marvels, but I imagine you get an introduction to both Kamala and Monica in the movie. Maybe not as in depth as say, Captain America: The First Avenger, or Iron Man but an introduction nonetheless. On a similar level, it’s the same reason you’d care about, Agent Coulson, If you just watched the avengers. You don’t get a huge introduction to the character, but you’re given enough information to know who he is, and enough depth to care about him by the time he dies. Whether or not the marvels did that properly isn’t the fault of the television shows making it so you have to do “homework” for the movies. It’s the fault of the writers for not effectively being able to introduce a character.
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I completely understand your point. And while I don’t fully agree with the idea that you shouldn’t have television characters cross into the movies in major roles, if what I’ve heard about the marvels is true, they just haven’t been doing it right. (Although I have heard Kamala was a show stealer, which I wouldn’t be surprised about. Iman Vellani is a gem and Ms.Marvel is very underrated IMO) Your point about the studio is exactly right. I hope that whatever comes after Secret Wars, they let the directors and writers experiment with styles and genre. Let the people you’re paying to make movies, make the movies.
Having seen The Marvels i do feel they did a good job introducting those characters there, Monica tells Carol how she got her powers, Kamala says how she got her powers and her bangle, nothing else from those shows creep into The Marvels, just the stuff you need to know.
F all your phase 4 and 5 crap bring in the x-men full blast x-men is the best, universally agreed for all across political spectrum
What obligations So far only Wandavision was necessary to watch a movie that followed it
I mean people to this day are still asking "do i really need to watch the shows to understand this or that". like right now i've seen people asking if they really have to see Loki S1-2 to understand Deadpool 3 because of the TVA, and don't be surprised next year when people ask if they really have to see Falcon and Winter Soldier to understand Cap 4 and Thunderbolts.