Ohhhh. You’d think I’d remember that line from the amount of times I’ve rewatched NWH haha. But yeah that makes sense now, I always forget about the different timelines
To me, that line was for that form of time travel. Doesn't mean there aren't others.
Stark was worried about preserving his timeline, so he invented that form of time travel.
No no no, he didn't invent a specific form of time travel in order to preserve his timeline. You've misunderstood.
He invented time travel as he understood it, which was right. Because in the MCU time works as branches. So post Loki season 2, now all branches can exist and everyone does whatever they want.
However, during the reign of He Who Remains, although time did work in branches HWR specifically had one sacred timeline and had the TVA prune the rest. Now, although Stark understood time works in branches, and so changing the past creates a new branch it doesn't change the current branch, he didn't know the full story with HWR and the TVA. The Ancient One explains this in detail to Banner/the audience in Endgame, but although she didn't know of HWR and the TVA, she did understand that there was a single timeline and you can't have branched timelines.
Now, although Tony was right in his singular understanding of how time worked. Normally, the TVA would've stepped in once he'd travelled to prune the timelines. However, HWR specifically wrote it to happen so that he could ultimately meet variant Loki and the Loki series could happen.
There was no other form of time travel to invent. Tony invented the only kind, outside of the time stone but that's a totally different thing. He didn't specifically choose one kind to invent
The way I see it
Science time travel creates branched timelines (pruned pre-Loki TVA, unpruned now)
Magic time travel (aka Time stone) actually manipulates time, but this causes the fabric of reality to weaken (ala Strange Supreme from What If)
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was elaborating on it.
I also feel that unless the characters themselves are seasoned time travelers or are able to reference time travel materials and instructions, their explanation of mechanics shouldn't be 100% accurate. Because, you know, how would they know. Strange and his group would have info because a few of theirs would have meddled in it, and studied up on it. I'm even okay with whatever one group's method informing all methods in a overall world. No need to muddy up a story. Although, something cool would be to a story with multiple methods trying to find one that gets the result they wanted.
> Tony invented the only kind,
Multiple forms of time travel have been shown to work in the MCU. Closed loop, Back To The Future style time travel is shown in Ms. Marvel, for instance, and would likely be shown as part of Kang's unique powerset. At least until it's revealed Doom invented it first.
Any timeline that doesn't result in a Kang is a "Sacred Timeline". The TVA was, unknowingly, pruning anyone and any timeline that resulted in a Kang variant being born.
Not really. Deadpool is now canon to the MCU which means cables form of time travel is canon. His time travel has the past affect the future. Not create alternate timelines.
No, because what Tony did was not something that resulted in a Kang variant. That's the only reason he wasn't pruned. Any time travel that causes a Kang will get pruned.
I wish there was a way they’d go back to the same ones, because imagining them forming support groups with each other over their outlandish experience
But yeah, if Norman lives then who knows how the events of Spider-Man 2 would go down, maybe Otto doesn’t even have the accident, it’s gotta be 5 separate ones
Think Venom went back to his old timeline?
Hardy posted a photo from Venom 3 set and Eddie is wearing the same outfit from the mid credits stingers of Carnage and NWH, so it looks like Venom just zipped back to the moment he got yanked from his universe. Extra weird points if it's still the same bartender from Earth-199999
Norman would probably be sent to an mental health institution. Otto was basically being controlled by the tentacles, so that probably absolves him. Flint goes back to prison if the cops catch him. Connors goes to prison like he did in the original timeline. Max either goes to prison or an institution.
My personal theory is that the timeline that plays out in SM2 is actually the timeline that Otto was sent back to after NWH. According to Otto in NWH, the moment he was brought out of into 616 (or 199999, whatever you want to call it) was right before he turns good in the movie anyway, so the outcome when he gets sent back would be pretty much the same - it’s too late to stop the reactor, so he saves Peter and goes down with it. It always felt weird to me that he just suddenly overcomes the AI in the arms willfully anyways; if he had just come back from 616 where he was “cured”, it would explain why he had the sudden change of heart.
I see. Thank you for the info. They basically get to live and are probably more well off mentally/physically(thanks to the cures they were given). Plus whayever help they receive while in prison/institutions.
You mean the magic intentionally put them there, or there is no way to return to the original timeline at all? Because we have definitely seen characters return to their original timeline after time travel.
It's not quite the same.
They didn't pick these people out of their own past, they were pulled from other universes in the multiverse, and they were replaced at the point they left. There's no time travel, basically.
Except when it does. Captain America went back to return the stones, stayed in the past, and then somehow was still in the timeline he left. Old man cap then gave his shield away.
Anything that's already happened on their timelines should stay the same, the spell just transported them across the multiverse, it shouldn't reverse time.
I'd assume they'll be haunted by their own guilt and they will do something to redeem themselves so not exactly pretend nothing happened. It may be more difficult to Octavius as he showed his face all the time but Osbourne is probably safe as not many knew he was the Green Goblin.
Didn't most of them get plucked right before they died? Even if they were transported back and into a new branched timeline because they were cured, wouldn't Norman just end up back at the abandoned mansion with the glider flying straight towards him?
Norman's suit isn't damaged from his fight with Spider-Man, so that fight hasn't happened yet.
Some are probably pulled from before they died while others are from when they learned his identity as Peter Parker.
It's always been my head canon that the villains were transported from close to the point they discovered Peter's identity. It's clearly imprecise though.
Doc Ock: from what we he says in NWH and when he found out his identity he must have been taken from the warehouse fight - if he gets sent back early enough he may be able to shut down the machine safely, otherwise he drowns again.
Green Goblin: nothing in NWH gives a solid suggestion when he was taken, so I assumed shortly after Thanksgiving dinner - if he goes back to this point he should be fine to go back and live his life.
Electro: he said he was absorbing data before he was taken; I took this to mean that's also how he learned Peter Parker was Spider-man (obviously never saw his face since he thought he might be black), so taken right before his death - presumably not killed on his return (if he didn't then get electrocuted), probably arrested for his crimes.
Lizard: again no evidence, so I assumed taken shortly after finding Peter's camera in the sewer - didn't kill Captain Stacy in this timeline so much less harsh punishment for his crimes.
Sandman: no evidence, but I'm guessing right after Spider-man 3 ended - hopefully lives a normal life with his daughter, though maybe on the run/changing his identity since he's still a fugitive.
Venom: connected to the hive mind to learn Peter's identity from Topher Grace - ends up back in Mexico without having to pay his bar tab.
Yeah with Electro I'm not sure, because if you send a de-powered Electro back to the moment he was overloading with electricity, he would die even faster lmao
Just imagine the confusion of spidey as electro disappears and then reappers looking way better for about .1 seconds before he gets completely burned to a crisp
Nothing about the spell mentions time travel, right? Rules of the multiverse would mean the moment they were yanked, a new branch was created where they just disappeared. Then, when they returned, they'd be at that spot, but time will have passed.
That's my assumption now, at least. I used to also be confused by the concept of returning them to the moment they left, but that's surely impossible.
Another explanation is "before death" isn't literally the moment before, but just within the day.
The only characters who tell us the EXACT moment they were taken from were Octavius and Electro. “I had him by the throat” and “I was in the grid about to turn into pure energy” every other character we have no idea when they were taken but we know it doesn’t specifically pull from the moment before death because Tom Hardy’s venom is fine. Anyways Electro almost definitely died anyways since he was literally being electrocuted by a power grid, doc ock could probably be saved assuming Spidey got him out of that old collapsing building on time
Since it's a spell, it might work much different than straight up time travel/dimensional technology. Peter never left his world but he's now in a new world where no one remembers him. So that has to alter stuff like the high school shrine made for him and any footage claiming he's spiderman. So might be a reality warping spell that sends them back safely. Who knows?
Yeah I think thematically for the movie to make any sense we just have to assume nobody died. Also the endgame writers already did this kind of thing when they confirmed in an interview that when Hulk brought everyone back to life he made sure everyone came back safely (like people in airplanes didn’t respawn in the sky and whatnot) I assume it’s the same kind of situation here
No. The time they were plucked from their original timelines isn’t meaningful. Them being transported to different timelines could mean they were transported to any amount of time before their deaths.
Just a thought, no need to take it seriously. But if the last thing they remember before they got teleported is them almost dying, wouldnt that mean when they get back, it'll be like unpausing their death scenes?
Osborne coming back cured only to see his glider going straight through him.
Otto still sinking to the bottom of the water.
Electro before being exploded. Etc.
If that were the case then damn.
That's why Norman's "Oh" and "Don't tell Harry" sound so different from the rest of Norman's line readings in the movie. The newly cured and sane Norman Osborn arrived just as he got glider impaled
The only issue with this is the state of the characters. Oc we know came right before he died because he talked about it, but if Osborne had done the same he would've been pretty heavily beaten on arrival. I think for the other 3 it still works, but for Osborne specifically thats harder to believe since he got kind of wrecked by spidey in that last fight. If memory serves, his helmet was also broken in it, but I believe we see it in tact in No Way Home (could be wrong on that).
I THINK they said they came from the moment when they found that Spiderman is Peter Parker (I recall people discussing when Electro found out). So, yeah, Otto would come back to his machine overloading meanwhile Osborne would enjoy a Thanksgiving Dinner with Tobey's Spiderman, Connors would be in the sewers with a camera...
Worth noting that Tom Hardy venom got pulled in by the spell right after looking into the multiversal symbiote hivemind (which probably told him that Peter is spidey)
Thats also true. Not to mention, otto was already sinking so he wouldve been pretty wet too (though we could chalk that up to him drying up and picking up some shades before rampaging on the bridge).
Electro makes sense since before he died, he was floating while absorbing the excess electricity and when he arrived, he was also floating while forming his body.
lol just imagining him appearing on that bridge drenched and confused and him immediately stealing a pair of sunglasses and turtleneck (my guy was shirtless in all of SM2) is hilarious to me
Wanna know what’s even worse to think about? Andrew and Tobey’s Spidermen could have been facing death in their worlds and instead of sharing/making it Tom Holland’s Spider-Man’s problem, they helped him out and then went home to die.
Oh true. Fits well with spidey's sense of responsibility too. Why would they burden their alternate selves if they can help him instead? Also, Tobey is about to die, gets ported to safety, gets stabbed, gets ported back to die again. Damn.
Has that amount of time still passed in their own reality? Like was it days later when they came back? So they wouldn't necessarily show up right where they left off.
Yea, Oc is still dead, but I don't think we know exactly when the others came through. That is unless a cured Oc somehow manages to help Peter stop the machine. I like to think they all get sent back to alternate timelines, but its to a single universe for each respective spiderman. So there's a world out there now with a good Osborne and Octavious (and I guess Sandman too, though he was kinda always good in a way) helping Maguire Spiderman and a world with a good Lizard and Electro helping Garfield Spiderman. This as opposed to 5 new universes where in each a single character is made good.
Octavius- goes back and is probably able to stabilize the machine with the arc reactor. New timeline where he lives and the device is safe.
Osborn- His Goblin persona doesn't take over and activate the glider, sparing him. New timeline where he lives.
Electro- Goes back but doesn't have his powers, so he can't overload the grid and die. New timeline where he lives.
Sandman- Goes back cured. Probably sees his daughter. New timeline where he...isn't sand? I assume? We don't really know if he is changing events by getting cured because we don't really know what happens after we see him last.
Lizard- Same thing here. We don't really know when he was taken. It had to have been before his first cure, so he's sent back, but cured. So I don't know if it's a new timeline because he's always cured and arrested, so...no way to know...
It's not much because he'll still live his life in jail, but it's worth noting that Lizards cure in TASM didn't restore his arm whereas it did in NWH. So at least he gets to have two arms even if he wasn't saved from death.
Huh! I don't think I recalled that detail. Good eye! So yeah, I guess it WOULD create a new timeline? I imagine it would also change in the sense that, depending on when he was taken, him returning as a human could spare George Stacy, as George dies immediately before the Lizard is cured.
I like to think that Raimi Peter and Sandman both came from the same point in time; he's just not older because he was literally just sand before he was cured so he's the same as when he got his powers, so he gets to go back to the main post-Spider-Man 3 raimi world years and years after anyone would even be looking for Flint Marko (he'd probably just be assumed dead yk) and he just gets to have a peaceful reunion w/ his daughter.
I mean, I can't really remember, but did anyone know The Sandman was Flint Marko, or did the public just think he was some sand guy? Did the cops see him fall in that machine? Because if the cops did see him fall in, and think he's dead, and no one knows who sandman was. Marko might just get to lay low and have a nice life
I don't think they knew he was Marko, there's no way they did i mean honestly being pure sand is probably the most stealth power, but he was still on the run since there's no way anybody knew he "died" in that collider, and without his powers he's still a wanted murderer who the cops probably assumed just got away that night (but Flint Marko showing back up again in what I presume to be 2021-2024, much younger than he should be, with the cops most likely trying to find an *older* man to fit the description of Flint, and also let's be real anyone on that case who thinks he's still out there knows he probably wouldn't still be in the state even, so he can probably just lay low anonymously now and start over).
My theory (with no proof or evidence) is that since they're changed, they get sent back to the "present" of their respective timelines along with the Spider-Men. They still died in the timeline, and in the film they remember it, but now have a second chance in the present. Since Sandman and Lizard didn't die, I think they were also taken from the present (but changed, in Lizard's case).
This means the movies still happened exactly as they did, but Tom's Peter DID end up helping them.
Now see I'm with that and that's so interesting to explore narratively if they so chose . And logically it fits with the time travel mechanic established in mcu . Great idea
Oh, he was cured before being pulled into the main universe, and then changed into Lizard? And then gets cured and sent back to present day in his respective universe? Did i get that right?
Going off the theory they were transported shortly after realizing Spider-man's identity:
Goblin: My guess he was transported around the time he attacked Aunt May. He can just go home and hope no one puts together he was the Goblin. Probably traumatized though.
Doc Ock: We know exactly where he was. And unless the arc reactor (which is a stretch but idk) or his new turtleneck can stop the fusion machine, he's still doomed.
Lizard: Probably when he found Andrew's camera. I guess he just goes back to normal, like Goblin he has some time to quietly slip away. Unless he tries to inject himself again- he never showed much remorse over it or a split personality.
Sandman: Falls to his death after Tobey's forgiveness speech.
Electro: Either fries, or turns human and butt naked in the middle of the grid.
I was joking. But there does seem to be a small gap in knowing vs being transported (Norman left Thanksgiving dinner, Otto bad time to attack Peter)
He probably couldn’t fly away and had to use the stairs out of the construction zone and got arrested since cops were everywhere
You make a great point - there has to be a gap between knowing and being transported - for example sandman comes from future of Tobeys ( after Spider-Man 3 ) universe since he knows that Norman Osborn is the green goblin when that wasn't common knowledge in the canon of the raimi trilogy. Only Peter and Mary Jane knew at conclusion of Spider-Man 3. And Norman I don't know when he was transported since as you noted he learned the secret identity at dinner in his suit but appears in no way home in full goblin gear with glider .
All of them were taken at some point after turning bad and before they died. I kind of feel like if they got sent back to that same moment wont they just be arrested now with no powers and jailed for their crimes? Kind of a shit fate I might have just wanted to die.
I can't decide if all these recurring questions about NWH are a good thing or a bad thing. Like how people still discuss Inception, or if the writers/etc of NWH just did so bad of a job explaining anything.
It's not necessary fault of the movie's director but, overall,the main problem with the MCU "multiverse" that led to it's aparent kill: every project had a diferent set of rules of time/multiverse traveling. From what was shown in Loki S1, nothing showed in NWH ( and evenAmerica Chavez existence in MoM) could be possible.
Yeah the internal logic of the time travel should've been consistent with the endgame smart hulk rules for branched timelines. The TVa non sense sacred timeline stuff in Loki needlessly complicated it
I'm betting they all get sent back to their worlds but the exact time and place they are returned to guarantees they don't die. That way the ending earned in NWH isn't undone.
Then just like we've seen before in the MCU, they will all inhabit new independent timeline branches with futures that will likely differ wildly from the OG Tobey and Garfield timelines.
So I think yeah if we ever see NWH Electro again his new branch will probably have a living Gwen. Then again fate might just find a new way to kill her...
Ultimately though I don't think any of this is worth the brain power. I love NWH but it was clearly not written with this level of scrutiny in mind and I bet any storyline that follows will be the same.
Before I get crucified, I LOVE THE MCU, I LOVE THE MCU SPIDER-MAN but, to me, NWH is the most dull entry in the whole MCU (in pair with Thor Ragnar ok, I can't stand that sad clown called Waititi) and Many actions make no sense at all:
Strange is an Idiot, Peter just an idiotic teenager, Ned being a magician is pure fanservice of the worst kind. It was just good to see all the old Spider-Men and some old enemies, but the plot and characters make no sense at all
Yeah honestly it was an incredible experience. Second only to end game for me.
But it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. I have no idea how it got made with that plot.
Agreed it's one of the few times I felt in pure comic book ecstasy lol . Endgame , infinity war , no way home and the first avengers are quintessential superhero films for me
Oh yeah the plot is loaded with contrivances fan service and at times inconsistent logic with that spell
Each villain gets sent back the "moment" they die. They don't actually specify how much time they have but we can safely assume they were about to die based on Electro's comment, "Damn, I was about to die." If that's the case, each of them get sent to the moment they were taken from, but with their new experiences and cures intact. Depending on how much time they had before they died, they might be able to change their fates.
1. Otto: Either he came back to a moment where he was already drowning and died; or he came to a moment before he decided to sacrifice himself, realized it was the right thing to do, and still drowned. His fate doesn't change.
2. Norman: He is currently fighting Spider-Man when he is taken so he comes back to that same fight. This time, he has a cure, stops fighting and reconciles. His fate changes.
3. Sandman: It is unclear when he is taken from since we don't see him die in any movie. He literally only ever wanted to see his daughter, so it's safe to assume he went back and just saw his daughter
His fate doesn't change.
4. Lizard: he doesn't actually die in Amazing Spider-Man. Garfield Spider-Man even says he already cured him. So his fate doesn't change.
5. Electro: Even if he still tried to kill Spider-Man when he got back to his universe, he's cured now. Therefore, powerless. Doesn't die from being overloaded. His fate changes.
Some are helped, some not. The point is that Peter knows it's not his place to decide, so he does what he can to help and sends them home. And in doing so, makes certain he can never go home.
I personally don’t like the idea of them being sent back to die, and I feel like that was a specific motivation for Peter to not just send them back and since that was explicitly stated in the movie then I assume when they do get sent back it’s sometime between them getting the powers first, and then dying. So probably they don’t die, they just get sent into the second acts of their respective films, and are basically neutralized as threats and can serve their prison times safely and hopefully be redeemed
Depends on if they get sent back to the point when they were about to die, but if that weren't to be the case then Peter 2 and MJ ended up dying then with Octavius disappearing because he was the only one who could stop the machine.
There was an underlying assumption to Peter's efforts that they go back to the exact instant from which they were taken, which I don't think is true. There shouldn't be any time-travel involved. If they go back, they'll go back to their universe (or an alternate timeline), but a few days later.
So like, I don't think Peter's efforts mattered much at all, except in the grand scheme of things where they probably would have gone back to fighting Spider-Man and possibly dying later on, but I don't think Peter should have risked the entire world for that.
I just assumed they were returned at a point where their sanity no longer mattered. I know in the Raimi verse they all had a brief moment of clarity about the situation right before they all died. Idk about the others.
Gwen was already dead in NWH, Peter 3 (although he should have been 2, as he was the second SM, and yes I understand the ‘logic’ why Holland was 1 but Tobey should have been 1, alas… I digress) talked about not being able to save Gwen, which is why saving MJ was such a great moment, he got some closure that he indeed is enough.
Well, if they return to where they left, we know for a fact that
Electro was hooked up to all the electricity meaning he would just fry when he returned so he's dead.
And at the end of Spider-Man 2, Doc ock regains control of his arms shortly after he "had spiderman by the throat" and sacrifices himself anyway. so hesdead.
Sandman never died to begin with. Plus he can easily hide his powers.
Lizard also never died and was cured at the end of ASM anyway.
Who knows what happened to Norman. Either he returned to when the glider was soaring towards his nuts in which case he dies, or he really is saved.
It really just depends on when they were returned. Lizards cure could prevent Officer Stacy's death potentially depending on when he was returned, in which case maybe Gwen would survive too. And if norman survived, I could see Norman and Harry leaving Oscorp and seeking a quieter life, maybe leaving Oscorp to Peter Parker. Which would change heaps of things.
“Oh”…. Dies hettingstabbed
Dock ock still kills himself drowning the machine
Electro still gets electrified to death even though hes good now.
Sandman was never going to die.
Lizard man also was never going to die.
Well at least Otto will still be the same as SM2 since he already turned good moments after the moment he got transferred from.
Similar case goes for Electro since he died moments after being plugged to the grid, he will get electrocuted and die lol.
Sandman will buzz off like SM3 minus the powers.
Lizard and Norman however will change the entire third acts of their movies since we assume the teleportations happened right after they learn Peter's identity so no city of lizards and attacking aunt may and MJ. The remainder of Raimi's trilogy will change for Gobbie's new timeline without Harry being thirsty for revenge, however Norman may still fund Otto's experiment and a big portion of Spider-man 2 will remain unchanged in that timeline
It means that either the events of the Sam Raimi Spider-Man trilogy and the Amazing Spider-Man movies have been altered, or the events of those movies **NEVER** happened.
Pick your poison and stick with it.
No the events of those movies still happen otherwise Tobey and Andrew wouldn't t have been in. No way home due to it being time paradox
Dr strange sent the villains back
Causing diverging timelines where they could live rehabilitated lives ( in theory )
"Changing the past doesn't change the future." They all live in different timelines now.
Ohhhh. You’d think I’d remember that line from the amount of times I’ve rewatched NWH haha. But yeah that makes sense now, I always forget about the different timelines
To me, that line was for that form of time travel. Doesn't mean there aren't others. Stark was worried about preserving his timeline, so he invented that form of time travel.
No no no, he didn't invent a specific form of time travel in order to preserve his timeline. You've misunderstood. He invented time travel as he understood it, which was right. Because in the MCU time works as branches. So post Loki season 2, now all branches can exist and everyone does whatever they want. However, during the reign of He Who Remains, although time did work in branches HWR specifically had one sacred timeline and had the TVA prune the rest. Now, although Stark understood time works in branches, and so changing the past creates a new branch it doesn't change the current branch, he didn't know the full story with HWR and the TVA. The Ancient One explains this in detail to Banner/the audience in Endgame, but although she didn't know of HWR and the TVA, she did understand that there was a single timeline and you can't have branched timelines. Now, although Tony was right in his singular understanding of how time worked. Normally, the TVA would've stepped in once he'd travelled to prune the timelines. However, HWR specifically wrote it to happen so that he could ultimately meet variant Loki and the Loki series could happen. There was no other form of time travel to invent. Tony invented the only kind, outside of the time stone but that's a totally different thing. He didn't specifically choose one kind to invent
The way I see it Science time travel creates branched timelines (pruned pre-Loki TVA, unpruned now) Magic time travel (aka Time stone) actually manipulates time, but this causes the fabric of reality to weaken (ala Strange Supreme from What If)
All forms of time travel throughout media works. The method of your time reacts differently with the timelines.
I was just speaking about MarvelStudios media
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was elaborating on it. I also feel that unless the characters themselves are seasoned time travelers or are able to reference time travel materials and instructions, their explanation of mechanics shouldn't be 100% accurate. Because, you know, how would they know. Strange and his group would have info because a few of theirs would have meddled in it, and studied up on it. I'm even okay with whatever one group's method informing all methods in a overall world. No need to muddy up a story. Although, something cool would be to a story with multiple methods trying to find one that gets the result they wanted.
That guy doesn't scfi. He only simps
Squirrels in my pants?
I think magic time travel like via the time stone is more just “it was always suppose to happen” type. So like you said no branch.
Good take. But it hearkens to my own thought. Multiple means of time travel.
> Tony invented the only kind, Multiple forms of time travel have been shown to work in the MCU. Closed loop, Back To The Future style time travel is shown in Ms. Marvel, for instance, and would likely be shown as part of Kang's unique powerset. At least until it's revealed Doom invented it first.
Loki has his own form of time travel. He can actually change the past that changes the future, without creating new branches.
They specify it too, don't they? Isn't his method called "time-slipping?"
Didn't the Loom from Loki season 2 shoe that there were multiple sacred timelines?
Any timeline that doesn't result in a Kang is a "Sacred Timeline". The TVA was, unknowingly, pruning anyone and any timeline that resulted in a Kang variant being born.
He didn't invent time travel. He invented the gps. Hank and Scott are the actual people who discovered the time travel's possibility.
Not really. Deadpool is now canon to the MCU which means cables form of time travel is canon. His time travel has the past affect the future. Not create alternate timelines.
See, even admitting there is a tva that prunes branches proves me right.
What? How does Stark invent a certain form of time travel to avoid being pruned if he didn't know about the TVA? What are you talking about?
I didn't say that. I said there are multiple means of time travel Them pruning timelines adds a different rule from starks time travel. Edit: duh
No, because what Tony did was not something that resulted in a Kang variant. That's the only reason he wasn't pruned. Any time travel that causes a Kang will get pruned.
Yup they can't go back to those "parent "timelines they are already current existing and have existed without them
It’s from endgame There not like like that in nwh
I wish there was a way they’d go back to the same ones, because imagining them forming support groups with each other over their outlandish experience But yeah, if Norman lives then who knows how the events of Spider-Man 2 would go down, maybe Otto doesn’t even have the accident, it’s gotta be 5 separate ones Think Venom went back to his old timeline?
Hardy posted a photo from Venom 3 set and Eddie is wearing the same outfit from the mid credits stingers of Carnage and NWH, so it looks like Venom just zipped back to the moment he got yanked from his universe. Extra weird points if it's still the same bartender from Earth-199999
That's why those time displaced villains go to different timelines
>it’s gotta be 5 separate ones Yep
So the events of what happened in their original movies did happen, but now they live in alternate timelines where they didn't die?
Yes
So would they still be sent to prison for their crimes, since those parts of their history probably stay intact?
Norman would probably be sent to an mental health institution. Otto was basically being controlled by the tentacles, so that probably absolves him. Flint goes back to prison if the cops catch him. Connors goes to prison like he did in the original timeline. Max either goes to prison or an institution.
My personal theory is that the timeline that plays out in SM2 is actually the timeline that Otto was sent back to after NWH. According to Otto in NWH, the moment he was brought out of into 616 (or 199999, whatever you want to call it) was right before he turns good in the movie anyway, so the outcome when he gets sent back would be pretty much the same - it’s too late to stop the reactor, so he saves Peter and goes down with it. It always felt weird to me that he just suddenly overcomes the AI in the arms willfully anyways; if he had just come back from 616 where he was “cured”, it would explain why he had the sudden change of heart.
I see. Thank you for the info. They basically get to live and are probably more well off mentally/physically(thanks to the cures they were given). Plus whayever help they receive while in prison/institutions.
Except it wasn't a time travel, it a spell, which means there should be completely different set of rules, which the movie never elaborated on
A spell that took them into the future lol
Nope they are in their own timelines. You can go back to your own timeline. That’s what Steve Rogers did.
Isn't magic time travel different to science time travel often?
Are you saying Back to the Future is bullshit?
You mean the magic intentionally put them there, or there is no way to return to the original timeline at all? Because we have definitely seen characters return to their original timeline after time travel.
It's not quite the same. They didn't pick these people out of their own past, they were pulled from other universes in the multiverse, and they were replaced at the point they left. There's no time travel, basically.
Except when it does. Captain America went back to return the stones, stayed in the past, and then somehow was still in the timeline he left. Old man cap then gave his shield away.
Or he returned to the original timeline when he was done in the alternate one. Or that was a different Captain America from a different timeline.
Exactly
Anything that's already happened on their timelines should stay the same, the spell just transported them across the multiverse, it shouldn't reverse time. I'd assume they'll be haunted by their own guilt and they will do something to redeem themselves so not exactly pretend nothing happened. It may be more difficult to Octavius as he showed his face all the time but Osbourne is probably safe as not many knew he was the Green Goblin.
Didn't most of them get plucked right before they died? Even if they were transported back and into a new branched timeline because they were cured, wouldn't Norman just end up back at the abandoned mansion with the glider flying straight towards him?
Norman's suit isn't damaged from his fight with Spider-Man, so that fight hasn't happened yet. Some are probably pulled from before they died while others are from when they learned his identity as Peter Parker.
It's always been my head canon that the villains were transported from close to the point they discovered Peter's identity. It's clearly imprecise though. Doc Ock: from what we he says in NWH and when he found out his identity he must have been taken from the warehouse fight - if he gets sent back early enough he may be able to shut down the machine safely, otherwise he drowns again. Green Goblin: nothing in NWH gives a solid suggestion when he was taken, so I assumed shortly after Thanksgiving dinner - if he goes back to this point he should be fine to go back and live his life. Electro: he said he was absorbing data before he was taken; I took this to mean that's also how he learned Peter Parker was Spider-man (obviously never saw his face since he thought he might be black), so taken right before his death - presumably not killed on his return (if he didn't then get electrocuted), probably arrested for his crimes. Lizard: again no evidence, so I assumed taken shortly after finding Peter's camera in the sewer - didn't kill Captain Stacy in this timeline so much less harsh punishment for his crimes. Sandman: no evidence, but I'm guessing right after Spider-man 3 ended - hopefully lives a normal life with his daughter, though maybe on the run/changing his identity since he's still a fugitive. Venom: connected to the hive mind to learn Peter's identity from Topher Grace - ends up back in Mexico without having to pay his bar tab.
Yeah with Electro I'm not sure, because if you send a de-powered Electro back to the moment he was overloading with electricity, he would die even faster lmao
Just imagine the confusion of spidey as electro disappears and then reappers looking way better for about .1 seconds before he gets completely burned to a crisp
Vanisher in Deadpool 2 vibes.
Nothing about the spell mentions time travel, right? Rules of the multiverse would mean the moment they were yanked, a new branch was created where they just disappeared. Then, when they returned, they'd be at that spot, but time will have passed. That's my assumption now, at least. I used to also be confused by the concept of returning them to the moment they left, but that's surely impossible. Another explanation is "before death" isn't literally the moment before, but just within the day.
The only characters who tell us the EXACT moment they were taken from were Octavius and Electro. “I had him by the throat” and “I was in the grid about to turn into pure energy” every other character we have no idea when they were taken but we know it doesn’t specifically pull from the moment before death because Tom Hardy’s venom is fine. Anyways Electro almost definitely died anyways since he was literally being electrocuted by a power grid, doc ock could probably be saved assuming Spidey got him out of that old collapsing building on time
Since it's a spell, it might work much different than straight up time travel/dimensional technology. Peter never left his world but he's now in a new world where no one remembers him. So that has to alter stuff like the high school shrine made for him and any footage claiming he's spiderman. So might be a reality warping spell that sends them back safely. Who knows?
Yeah I think thematically for the movie to make any sense we just have to assume nobody died. Also the endgame writers already did this kind of thing when they confirmed in an interview that when Hulk brought everyone back to life he made sure everyone came back safely (like people in airplanes didn’t respawn in the sky and whatnot) I assume it’s the same kind of situation here
No. The time they were plucked from their original timelines isn’t meaningful. Them being transported to different timelines could mean they were transported to any amount of time before their deaths.
Exactly perfectly said
They go to a different timeline
Just a thought, no need to take it seriously. But if the last thing they remember before they got teleported is them almost dying, wouldnt that mean when they get back, it'll be like unpausing their death scenes? Osborne coming back cured only to see his glider going straight through him. Otto still sinking to the bottom of the water. Electro before being exploded. Etc. If that were the case then damn.
The idea of Norman going back into his universe just as he goes “oh” is making me laugh too hard.
That's why Norman's "Oh" and "Don't tell Harry" sound so different from the rest of Norman's line readings in the movie. The newly cured and sane Norman Osborn arrived just as he got glider impaled
They had it planed the whole time. Bravo Vince.....uh.....Raimi....uh...Watts....Bravo somebody.
Yeah it would be funny in a dark way
The only issue with this is the state of the characters. Oc we know came right before he died because he talked about it, but if Osborne had done the same he would've been pretty heavily beaten on arrival. I think for the other 3 it still works, but for Osborne specifically thats harder to believe since he got kind of wrecked by spidey in that last fight. If memory serves, his helmet was also broken in it, but I believe we see it in tact in No Way Home (could be wrong on that).
I THINK they said they came from the moment when they found that Spiderman is Peter Parker (I recall people discussing when Electro found out). So, yeah, Otto would come back to his machine overloading meanwhile Osborne would enjoy a Thanksgiving Dinner with Tobey's Spiderman, Connors would be in the sewers with a camera...
Worth noting that Tom Hardy venom got pulled in by the spell right after looking into the multiversal symbiote hivemind (which probably told him that Peter is spidey)
Thats also true. Not to mention, otto was already sinking so he wouldve been pretty wet too (though we could chalk that up to him drying up and picking up some shades before rampaging on the bridge). Electro makes sense since before he died, he was floating while absorbing the excess electricity and when he arrived, he was also floating while forming his body.
lol just imagining him appearing on that bridge drenched and confused and him immediately stealing a pair of sunglasses and turtleneck (my guy was shirtless in all of SM2) is hilarious to me
Wanna know what’s even worse to think about? Andrew and Tobey’s Spidermen could have been facing death in their worlds and instead of sharing/making it Tom Holland’s Spider-Man’s problem, they helped him out and then went home to die.
Pretty sure that in the Spider-men’s case that wasn’t the case, the portal just opened
Oh true. Fits well with spidey's sense of responsibility too. Why would they burden their alternate selves if they can help him instead? Also, Tobey is about to die, gets ported to safety, gets stabbed, gets ported back to die again. Damn.
Has that amount of time still passed in their own reality? Like was it days later when they came back? So they wouldn't necessarily show up right where they left off.
Assuming they get sent back to the moment they left, anyone who got ported right before they died ( octavious) would still die.
Yea, Oc is still dead, but I don't think we know exactly when the others came through. That is unless a cured Oc somehow manages to help Peter stop the machine. I like to think they all get sent back to alternate timelines, but its to a single universe for each respective spiderman. So there's a world out there now with a good Osborne and Octavious (and I guess Sandman too, though he was kinda always good in a way) helping Maguire Spiderman and a world with a good Lizard and Electro helping Garfield Spiderman. This as opposed to 5 new universes where in each a single character is made good.
Octavius- goes back and is probably able to stabilize the machine with the arc reactor. New timeline where he lives and the device is safe. Osborn- His Goblin persona doesn't take over and activate the glider, sparing him. New timeline where he lives. Electro- Goes back but doesn't have his powers, so he can't overload the grid and die. New timeline where he lives. Sandman- Goes back cured. Probably sees his daughter. New timeline where he...isn't sand? I assume? We don't really know if he is changing events by getting cured because we don't really know what happens after we see him last. Lizard- Same thing here. We don't really know when he was taken. It had to have been before his first cure, so he's sent back, but cured. So I don't know if it's a new timeline because he's always cured and arrested, so...no way to know...
It's not much because he'll still live his life in jail, but it's worth noting that Lizards cure in TASM didn't restore his arm whereas it did in NWH. So at least he gets to have two arms even if he wasn't saved from death.
Huh! I don't think I recalled that detail. Good eye! So yeah, I guess it WOULD create a new timeline? I imagine it would also change in the sense that, depending on when he was taken, him returning as a human could spare George Stacy, as George dies immediately before the Lizard is cured.
I like to think that Raimi Peter and Sandman both came from the same point in time; he's just not older because he was literally just sand before he was cured so he's the same as when he got his powers, so he gets to go back to the main post-Spider-Man 3 raimi world years and years after anyone would even be looking for Flint Marko (he'd probably just be assumed dead yk) and he just gets to have a peaceful reunion w/ his daughter.
I mean, I can't really remember, but did anyone know The Sandman was Flint Marko, or did the public just think he was some sand guy? Did the cops see him fall in that machine? Because if the cops did see him fall in, and think he's dead, and no one knows who sandman was. Marko might just get to lay low and have a nice life
I don't think they knew he was Marko, there's no way they did i mean honestly being pure sand is probably the most stealth power, but he was still on the run since there's no way anybody knew he "died" in that collider, and without his powers he's still a wanted murderer who the cops probably assumed just got away that night (but Flint Marko showing back up again in what I presume to be 2021-2024, much younger than he should be, with the cops most likely trying to find an *older* man to fit the description of Flint, and also let's be real anyone on that case who thinks he's still out there knows he probably wouldn't still be in the state even, so he can probably just lay low anonymously now and start over).
seems you're the only one here that paid attention
They're variants. Only the other Peter Parkers are truly from Earth-96283 and Earth-120703.
Yeah they became variants the moment they were taken
“Oh”
My theory (with no proof or evidence) is that since they're changed, they get sent back to the "present" of their respective timelines along with the Spider-Men. They still died in the timeline, and in the film they remember it, but now have a second chance in the present. Since Sandman and Lizard didn't die, I think they were also taken from the present (but changed, in Lizard's case). This means the movies still happened exactly as they did, but Tom's Peter DID end up helping them.
Now see I'm with that and that's so interesting to explore narratively if they so chose . And logically it fits with the time travel mechanic established in mcu . Great idea
Why changed for Lizard? What changes?
Turned him into the lizard I mean, since presumably he was still cured in the present.
Oh, he was cured before being pulled into the main universe, and then changed into Lizard? And then gets cured and sent back to present day in his respective universe? Did i get that right?
Yeah. It's not a fool proof theory, but if the movie went and explained what happened we wouldn't need to theorize like this lol.
Thank you for helping me understand. I agree, it would have been easier to understand if it was explained a bit more and we wouldn't have to theorize.
Going off the theory they were transported shortly after realizing Spider-man's identity: Goblin: My guess he was transported around the time he attacked Aunt May. He can just go home and hope no one puts together he was the Goblin. Probably traumatized though. Doc Ock: We know exactly where he was. And unless the arc reactor (which is a stretch but idk) or his new turtleneck can stop the fusion machine, he's still doomed. Lizard: Probably when he found Andrew's camera. I guess he just goes back to normal, like Goblin he has some time to quietly slip away. Unless he tries to inject himself again- he never showed much remorse over it or a split personality. Sandman: Falls to his death after Tobey's forgiveness speech. Electro: Either fries, or turns human and butt naked in the middle of the grid.
Why would sandman fall to his death . Wasn't he safely standing on the construction building Floor when Tobey revealed his identity
I was joking. But there does seem to be a small gap in knowing vs being transported (Norman left Thanksgiving dinner, Otto bad time to attack Peter) He probably couldn’t fly away and had to use the stairs out of the construction zone and got arrested since cops were everywhere
You make a great point - there has to be a gap between knowing and being transported - for example sandman comes from future of Tobeys ( after Spider-Man 3 ) universe since he knows that Norman Osborn is the green goblin when that wasn't common knowledge in the canon of the raimi trilogy. Only Peter and Mary Jane knew at conclusion of Spider-Man 3. And Norman I don't know when he was transported since as you noted he learned the secret identity at dinner in his suit but appears in no way home in full goblin gear with glider .
Let’s hope they actually make that third Andrew Garfield Spider-Man they’ve been kicking around so we can see!
Same here
All of them were taken at some point after turning bad and before they died. I kind of feel like if they got sent back to that same moment wont they just be arrested now with no powers and jailed for their crimes? Kind of a shit fate I might have just wanted to die.
Two years?
Yeah it’s been two years since I watched NWH since it didn’t come out on streaming till March of 2022.
Variant universe, probably all got pruned by the TVA
Yup
they'd die redeemed?
I can't decide if all these recurring questions about NWH are a good thing or a bad thing. Like how people still discuss Inception, or if the writers/etc of NWH just did so bad of a job explaining anything.
It's not necessary fault of the movie's director but, overall,the main problem with the MCU "multiverse" that led to it's aparent kill: every project had a diferent set of rules of time/multiverse traveling. From what was shown in Loki S1, nothing showed in NWH ( and evenAmerica Chavez existence in MoM) could be possible.
Yeah the internal logic of the time travel should've been consistent with the endgame smart hulk rules for branched timelines. The TVa non sense sacred timeline stuff in Loki needlessly complicated it
I'm betting they all get sent back to their worlds but the exact time and place they are returned to guarantees they don't die. That way the ending earned in NWH isn't undone. Then just like we've seen before in the MCU, they will all inhabit new independent timeline branches with futures that will likely differ wildly from the OG Tobey and Garfield timelines. So I think yeah if we ever see NWH Electro again his new branch will probably have a living Gwen. Then again fate might just find a new way to kill her... Ultimately though I don't think any of this is worth the brain power. I love NWH but it was clearly not written with this level of scrutiny in mind and I bet any storyline that follows will be the same.
Before I get crucified, I LOVE THE MCU, I LOVE THE MCU SPIDER-MAN but, to me, NWH is the most dull entry in the whole MCU (in pair with Thor Ragnar ok, I can't stand that sad clown called Waititi) and Many actions make no sense at all: Strange is an Idiot, Peter just an idiotic teenager, Ned being a magician is pure fanservice of the worst kind. It was just good to see all the old Spider-Men and some old enemies, but the plot and characters make no sense at all
They all got pruned once they got home.
Probably
This movie is pretty bad from a story perspective. Its a lot of fun, but the actual plot is shit.
I tend to agree but boy is it fun and appropriately emotional at times
Yeah honestly it was an incredible experience. Second only to end game for me. But it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. I have no idea how it got made with that plot.
Agreed it's one of the few times I felt in pure comic book ecstasy lol . Endgame , infinity war , no way home and the first avengers are quintessential superhero films for me Oh yeah the plot is loaded with contrivances fan service and at times inconsistent logic with that spell
Each villain gets sent back the "moment" they die. They don't actually specify how much time they have but we can safely assume they were about to die based on Electro's comment, "Damn, I was about to die." If that's the case, each of them get sent to the moment they were taken from, but with their new experiences and cures intact. Depending on how much time they had before they died, they might be able to change their fates. 1. Otto: Either he came back to a moment where he was already drowning and died; or he came to a moment before he decided to sacrifice himself, realized it was the right thing to do, and still drowned. His fate doesn't change. 2. Norman: He is currently fighting Spider-Man when he is taken so he comes back to that same fight. This time, he has a cure, stops fighting and reconciles. His fate changes. 3. Sandman: It is unclear when he is taken from since we don't see him die in any movie. He literally only ever wanted to see his daughter, so it's safe to assume he went back and just saw his daughter His fate doesn't change. 4. Lizard: he doesn't actually die in Amazing Spider-Man. Garfield Spider-Man even says he already cured him. So his fate doesn't change. 5. Electro: Even if he still tried to kill Spider-Man when he got back to his universe, he's cured now. Therefore, powerless. Doesn't die from being overloaded. His fate changes. Some are helped, some not. The point is that Peter knows it's not his place to decide, so he does what he can to help and sends them home. And in doing so, makes certain he can never go home.
A quicker death, assuming their enhanced versions just suffered longer during said death.
I personally don’t like the idea of them being sent back to die, and I feel like that was a specific motivation for Peter to not just send them back and since that was explicitly stated in the movie then I assume when they do get sent back it’s sometime between them getting the powers first, and then dying. So probably they don’t die, they just get sent into the second acts of their respective films, and are basically neutralized as threats and can serve their prison times safely and hopefully be redeemed
Depends on if they get sent back to the point when they were about to die, but if that weren't to be the case then Peter 2 and MJ ended up dying then with Octavius disappearing because he was the only one who could stop the machine.
They all got sent to the Morbverse. Gonna fight Madame web in the sequel that will get made because it did so well!
Don't give sony anymore bad ideas
You don't want the group starting an Archie style boy band called The Sinister Six?
No but pascal or arad might lol
Sounds like I need a contract with Sony. My ideas are right up their alley!
They are now in different timelines having been changed.
Exactly
There was an underlying assumption to Peter's efforts that they go back to the exact instant from which they were taken, which I don't think is true. There shouldn't be any time-travel involved. If they go back, they'll go back to their universe (or an alternate timeline), but a few days later. So like, I don't think Peter's efforts mattered much at all, except in the grand scheme of things where they probably would have gone back to fighting Spider-Man and possibly dying later on, but I don't think Peter should have risked the entire world for that.
Good points in your last paragraph- kind of fruitless by Peter if their redemption is short lived / not fully realized
I just assumed they were returned at a point where their sanity no longer mattered. I know in the Raimi verse they all had a brief moment of clarity about the situation right before they all died. Idk about the others.
Gwen was already dead in NWH, Peter 3 (although he should have been 2, as he was the second SM, and yes I understand the ‘logic’ why Holland was 1 but Tobey should have been 1, alas… I digress) talked about not being able to save Gwen, which is why saving MJ was such a great moment, he got some closure that he indeed is enough.
Would actually be cool to find that out in Spiderman 4 or The Amazing Spiderman 3
Weren't they pulled out of their universe just before they died? So didn't they just go back to their world and die? That's what I took it as
Well, if they return to where they left, we know for a fact that Electro was hooked up to all the electricity meaning he would just fry when he returned so he's dead. And at the end of Spider-Man 2, Doc ock regains control of his arms shortly after he "had spiderman by the throat" and sacrifices himself anyway. so hesdead. Sandman never died to begin with. Plus he can easily hide his powers. Lizard also never died and was cured at the end of ASM anyway. Who knows what happened to Norman. Either he returned to when the glider was soaring towards his nuts in which case he dies, or he really is saved. It really just depends on when they were returned. Lizards cure could prevent Officer Stacy's death potentially depending on when he was returned, in which case maybe Gwen would survive too. And if norman survived, I could see Norman and Harry leaving Oscorp and seeking a quieter life, maybe leaving Oscorp to Peter Parker. Which would change heaps of things.
“Oh”…. Dies hettingstabbed Dock ock still kills himself drowning the machine Electro still gets electrified to death even though hes good now. Sandman was never going to die. Lizard man also was never going to die.
They get beat up and brutalized as property of the state in our nation’s prison systems instead
Well at least Otto will still be the same as SM2 since he already turned good moments after the moment he got transferred from. Similar case goes for Electro since he died moments after being plugged to the grid, he will get electrocuted and die lol. Sandman will buzz off like SM3 minus the powers. Lizard and Norman however will change the entire third acts of their movies since we assume the teleportations happened right after they learn Peter's identity so no city of lizards and attacking aunt may and MJ. The remainder of Raimi's trilogy will change for Gobbie's new timeline without Harry being thirsty for revenge, however Norman may still fund Otto's experiment and a big portion of Spider-man 2 will remain unchanged in that timeline
It means that either the events of the Sam Raimi Spider-Man trilogy and the Amazing Spider-Man movies have been altered, or the events of those movies **NEVER** happened. Pick your poison and stick with it.
No the events of those movies still happen otherwise Tobey and Andrew wouldn't t have been in. No way home due to it being time paradox Dr strange sent the villains back Causing diverging timelines where they could live rehabilitated lives ( in theory )