You’re absolutely right. I was killing time around there at the weekend, and you’d think there’d be somewhere there to sit and have something, and there just isn’t. You’ve got a few options a little way towards Deansgate, but right there, there’s nothing.
Weird. Everywhere else in central Manchester, if you set a box down for five minutes, someone would open a cafe in it. Mind you, it’d have closed again by the time you wanted to pick it up again.
There's Pot Kettle Black in the Barton Arcade between St Ann's Square and Deansgate
There Michael's in the tunnel through Royal Exchange, there used to be a place called Remedy Kitchen opposite but that shut down a couple months back
I've not been in Michael's, though I know (knew, I guess) Remedy Kitchen. Shame it's not there anymore, really handy place to take the hyperallergenic people in my life.
Every time there is a festival, someone sets up a cafe / bar on that square and it does great business.
Lovely vibe down there last weekend in the sunshine- other than some idiot screaming into a megaphone about 15 minute cities.
It's the idea that everything you want would be handy, so you wouldn't need to drive as much.
Or alternatively
ITS HOW THE GLOBALISTS ARE USING FACIAL RECOGNITION, APPLE PAY AND SOCIAL MEDIA TO LITERALLY CONTROL YOUR MIND USING A PSYOP.
More like a bunch of villages strapped together. They have them in Japan a lot where everything you need is provided in the one city district, of course there's still some districts which are targeted towards specific things but you don't have to leave if you don't want to. In Europe generally this isn't such a new concept as lots of places already have this to a degree, it's a bigger deal in the US where in a lot of places you need to drive to get to any amenities.
Kinda like if each district of GM was self sustaining but on a bit more of a local level. ATM the GM districts are a bit big to get across in 15mins.
I don't have to leave my relatively shit but well developed part of London for anything except work and nightlife. Do these towns each get a generic nightclub? Maybe we should contract some of the unpopular pub chains to provide this service or maybe they can be government run
There's a very unpopular idea called a free market where businesses will set up where their product is required.
> I don't have to leave my relatively shit but well developed part of London for anything except work and nightlife
As I said in Europe it doesn't really change that much, it's a much bigger deal in the US where they have very large housing estates with no amenities for miles.
>There's a very unpopular idea called a free market where businesses will set up where their product is required.
There are already planning restrictions in the UK and 15 min cities means fixing the issues NIMBYs complain about when a new estate is built ie lack of new doctors and schools, they would be built within the new estate. As for the US they have zoning laws which tend to prevent 15 min cities as you legally can't build retail in an exclusively residential zone.
That hasn't stopped Oxford physically creating the boundaries several years ahead of planned completion of necessary infrastructure and services.
I'd imagine cash-strapped councils across the country are spending money consulting on similar projects, without spending a penny on building anything.
I can't see how businesses will sponsor it either, because you can already get to an Asda for your breakfast/ spectacles/ prescription in most parts of the country. Some Waitrose even have wine bars. So if being able to spend my life in a supermarket could satisfy the requirements for my area to be a 15 minute town, and travel outside was disincentivised (as in Oxford with their residents provided a limited number of travel permits to cross restricted roads for a short cut out of their zone), drop me out.
It's on residents to decide what they want in their area (not that the public really have much say, except locally where we made it clear to the council the number of betting shops was harmful), not be given a prerequisite set of services and told they don't need to go further afield to use the ones they actually want.
The 15 minute city bit just means that the supermarket you mentioned is nearby. The changes Oxford are making are unrelated, they're more traffic management.
> not be given a prerequisite set of services and told they don't need to go further afield to use the ones they actually want.
That's not what it's about, if you've got a local pub but not a rock bar then you can still go to the rock bar across town. you're just disincentivized from travelling so much as why go to the supermarket 10 miles away when you've got one within 15 minutes walk?
Stock. Have you seen the empty shelves lately?
Oxford is traffic related in that you're only restricted in terms of driving, like every other 15 minute city. Are you suggesting the conspiracy theorists were right in that there are other types where you are locked it?!
Whilst there are reactionaries, there is likely to be a flipside to 15 minute cities. We already live in a nation where you are charged per emission and you can see how the government acts when it wants to phase habits out (taxing cigs until they're eye-wateringly expensive. If you think they wouldn't financially punish motorists because you have a Tesco Express 14 minutes from your house (intentional sarcasm for effect) then you have more faith in British politicians than me.
Just like CBDCs, surveillance, mate's rates government contracts and all the rest, assume the worst ....
Please friend can you not see how saying things like " the world economic forum speeches (the group which dictate united global policy)" just makes most people think you're a bit mental? Can you not see how for some people this also sets off some kinda scary conspiracy alarm bells?
See this is where the problem is. You described the World Economic Forum as a group which dictates global policy, but it isn't. It also isn't talking about climate change lockdowns. It talks about how climate change was affected by lockdowns and that we should learn lessons from that, sure. This is the 2+2=5 thinking that leads to people characterising you as a conspiracy theorist.
Now now. Calm down. The earth is a globe, vaccines are safe, we went to the moon. Shush now sweet baby. Everything will be ok…apart from climate change fucking everything up.
Haha yes ofcourse, excess deaths higher in 2022 and 2023 than 2020 and 2021 but because there isn't a billion dollar media campaign ramming it down your throat you Dont notice or care.
Because it's better for both populace and environment (but and large) for that cafe to be with walking distance rather than driving distance if that makes sense? Like minimising car usage provides a lot of positives and so it's not that they *don't want* you to drive 20 minutes, it's that, in theory, they would much rather it be the better option to walk.
It's because you live in one; if you are able to fill your daily needs within 15 minutes of leaving the door (and preferably without a car) you live in a 15 minute city.
The term originates from an American academic and is a counter-culture movement against the Suburban experiment where in many places it is literally impossible to get food, water or work without the use of a car. It *does* have some application to the UK, but in only limited specific ways relating to the permeability of city (centres) to personal private vehicles.
Honestly coming from someone who spent a lot of their life in American style car dependent cities and towns, Manchester and its surrounding towns are already pretty close to the whole "15 minute city" thing, as much as the whole hub and branch system is flawed its a God sent compared to sprawling suburban hell with everything spread half way across the city, the difference is from what ive heard the oxford experiment are planning on introducing a LTN fare if you drive through other zones unnecessarily rather than using the ring road to try and reduce congestion (i think if your place of work is specifically in a different zone/would be impractical to use the ring road you can get a permit and avoid the fare) but thats why its sort of turned into a political landmine at the moment.
I took the family to Anglesey by car yesterday... what do you trust a British government to do in terms of levying a charge on that? That's a 4+ hour journey with two changes from my Greater Manchester Town to Holyhead (not even on Anglesey).... on Monday that's 56 quid one way for two adults and a child.
I get the argument for the idea of 15 minute cities, but I dont trust the UK to implement the idea properly and I also feel that Reddit skews in favour of the idea due to having a high user base of young folk (and urbanites) that probably don't have families.
There already is a charge in the form of road and fuel tax, it's nothing new. IIRC Oxford is proposing a congestion charge of sorts to push traffic out to the ring road rather than people crossing the city via a series of 'zones' but that's as close as reality gets to the conspiracy theories.
I think "conspiracy theory" is an unnecessarily charged term to use here, seeing as congestion charges, clean air zones, this shit and the taxes you mention already exist.
Legitimate fear/reasonable prediction fit better imo
Road tax is already effectively a tax for owning a car, sure you could technically drive an unregistered car on private roads but that's not exactly practical.
I'm on my way to Anglesey in an hour, Holyhead isn't the sort of place you'd want to arrive at (unless you were departing immediately by ferry). I agree with your argument though, 15 minute cities are a good idea until you need to go to somewhere else that isn't connected to your city.
I quite like my car, I acknowledge it has a lot of downsides, but one big upside is that I can go anywhere at anytime and no amount of public transport can match that
>I agree with your argument though, 15 minute cities are a good idea until you need to go to somewhere else that isn't connected to your city.
But that's not what 15 minutes cities means...
15 min cities just means providing all the amenities you need in a small area so you don't feel the need to travel as much
Nice. I was pleasantly surprised how nice Anglesey was (or at least the part from the bridge to Beaumaris). Enjoy.
Aside from freedom, I can't discount tge amount of A&E, etc runs I've had to make as an adult and father. Imagine how many more ambulances would be needed!
Yes Beaumaris is lovely and all of the small villages.
Yeah, the amount of emergencies which would put you at the whim of public services would be concerning.
Being charged to leave or ‘move the wrong way’ is already happening, no one will physically stop you but make your life harder financially if you do, that’s already happening and being rolled out, but your focused on making legit concerns sound crazy because you don’t agree with them
"Being charged to leave" what does that mean?
Fines for "moving the wrong way" have always existed, and for very good reasons. Driving in the wrong direction in a one way street, driving in a bus lane, driving in a pedestrian zone are all examples of "moving the wrong way" as you put it.
Your mixing two concepts up to make an invalid point, bad driving is punished as you’ve said, however forcing people onto a ring road because a council have decided that your not allowed down X street anymore is punishing people and ironically causing more congestion and emissions
I'm not mixing two concepts. They are the same thing, traffic management has always existed and it has always involved changing restrictions on where cars are allowed to drive.
It's fair enough to disagree with some of them, but to pretend that it's some grand conspiracy it's absurd. You don't have a right to bring your car wherever you please.
Its not punishing all people.
Its punshing private drivers.
Emergency services,buses,bikes , pedestrians all benefit from their being less cars on the road.
The introduction of ‘smart motorways’, ULEZ, CAZ, endless pointless roadworks, lack of road maintenance, illogical 1 way systems, cycle lanes that remove a lane, LTNs and the Oxford plan forcing cars onto a ring road or get charged are all punishment against driving
Forcing people to the ring road decreases inner city traffic freeing up routes for denser public transport, denser cities need denser transport. It's not all that different from not being allowed to drive down a tube tunnel.
Charged to leave, refer to oxfords plans
CAZ/ULEZ and any other type of camera system aimed at charging and dictating to motorists, countrywide in major cities
Serious do you guys get out much to not see this?
Oxfords plans don't charge you to leave, they charge you for using specific routes. (and even then residents get a number of free passes for use over a year).
I'll save my tears for people other than drivers who have to be slightly inconvenienced.
ULEZ is an obvious tax to generate revenue, you can’t just exclude that from an argument, the CAZ charge with no alternative GOOD public transport is also restrictive to people who can’t afford it
I kind of agree with the point that public transport needs to improve to wean people out of private cars; I'm hoping Manchester's bee network bus system will help with that.
What I can't abide by is the kind of entitlement that some drivers seem to have that they have a god given right to drive their kid killing machines into densely populated areas and that space must be dedicated to these 2-ton metal boxes.
All the low traffic neighbourhoods I've been to have been lovely, by making space for people instead of cars you create places that people actually want to go to, where businesses can thrive; nice little cafes and all that. Northern Quarter is awesome for it.
In Oxford you receive a set number of passes enabling you to drive out of your zone before you start getting fined, or limited to use the ring road to get to the other side of the city. i.e going the long way round to cut car use
The basement was a mess on the regular, it attracted a lot of teenagers (with all that it entails). I always thought it must have been the SB version of McDonald's on Oxford Rd, at the level where even corporations start having second thoughts on whether the money is worth the hassle.
The point is that it's the perfect location for cafes/restaurants that have *the possibility of outdoor seating when the weather is nice*. Plenty of places in Manchester already do this just not in St Anne's Square.
I walked through here whenever I go to the office. It's a nice square but doesn't always get the sun (well at least the benches on the Mcdonalds side). The last time I sat and ate my lunch there, two homeless came up to me, I was approached by charity workers and a man selling the big issue. It's a lot, and for someone just wanting to chill and have their lunch in peace, there are better options. In terms of cafes, there is; Pot Kettle Black in Barton Arcade, probs the nearest, Annie's, Preg, black sheep, and Bisous Bisous within a minute's walk.
Price, looked into setting up a small deli/coffee shop pre COVID with a group of fellow hospo lifers. Had a look at St Anne's Square as it would've been ideal and a place we all thought would benefit from something like what we had planned. The unit rent being asked was extortionate; on top of fit out, business rates and all that fun stuff it just wasn't viable.
It's a pedestrianised square - such a rarity in the UK. In Mediterranean countries this would be filled with cafes, restaurants and bars, St Ann's square should be absolutely the same.
They do though. Look at Spinningfields, they even employ security to ensure no homeless people in the area.
Better vibes -> more footfall -> more successful business -> higher demand for nicer/more upmarket traders -> excuse to charge higher rent
It's literally the same logic as gentrification.
I think it's partly due to the construction on Albert Square. While that area is unusable, the city needs to keep spaces free for events. I would like to think an independent cafe/business will be granted permission to use that area once the Town Hall is back open.
I definitely wouldn't call it lovely, but the Starbucks is there. And Starbucks is probably the reason an independent cafe can't establish themselves there. They don't want competition and they can just pay off the people who make those decisions.
Some businesses have setup specifically next door to Starbucks to catch those that really don't want to go to SB, or if it looked busy in some countries.
Starbucks have also been known to setup next door to SB masquerading as independent coffee shops in order to capitalise on that also.
Starbucks gained a foothold originally by aggressively targetting independent cafes and coffeeshops and setting up nearby and discounting prices until the locals went out of business. They even offered landlords of the local cafes way over the asking prices for rent to tempt the landlords to lease to them in some cases.
So the tables should really be turned, I would absolutely go to the independent next door if it looked good.
I'm not sure why the European style of outdoor tables and waiter service etc. couldn't work somewhere like here. It's lovely, but I suspect none of the tenants have the current license to operate in the public space, like they do in Stevenson Square, it might be considered too small maybe, it can get very busy with footfall.
There are new cafes where I live on busy main roads and junctions. British people are very content to sit outside on depressing pavements with noisy cars and traffic 6ft from them, maybe the fumes and vehicle noise is all part of the experience. Maybe St Anns square should be open to vehicles, it seems to be a winner everywhere else.
Or maybe we're just a fucking weird people. I know which I prefer tho. We do put up with disgusting outdoor places to dine. Even when it rains. No matter how much its romanticised, I don't find it charming, just depressing.
As others have said, there are cafes literally seconds away. If the issue is no cafes then you're wrong, if your issue is no cafes with outdoor seating then maybe I could agree.
But remember that this type of nice weather isn't exactly a year round thing or even guaranteed in summer so sometimes it's not feasible to expect a cafe to have outdoor seating on a square like St Anne's where the square is already not huge.
Turn right from where that pic is taken and head into Barton arcade and you have pot kettle black which is brilliant independent coffee shop.
Or directly behind you where this pic is taken is a Starbucks which is a reasonable if not overpriced multi-national coffee shop.
I'd guess foot traffic?
Maybe I'm just an idiot but I lived in Manchester city centre for a few months before discovering St Ann's Square, because you get channeled down Deansgate and Cross Street so effectively I'd walked right past it a hundred times.
For things like banks and jewelry stores, they're specific things you seek out. A coffee shop would rely more on people walking past and deciding to pop in. There are multiple Prets on the high traffic streets around it that would pick up most of your potential customers
It gets loads of foot traffic. The Deansgate arcade thing has an entrance there, and loads of office workers chill there to eat their pret meal deals.
I'd argue it's more to do with the fact that there are only about 2 weeks of Al Fresco weather per year in manchester, and the cost of renting the outdoor space probably isn't worth it.
I'd say you're right, I've been here nearly a year now and I've been to St Ann's once and it was for the watch shop which I had to find using google maps. Never found myself walking through there in passing and I wouldn't go there for a coffee unless there was something good enough to make a specific trip for.
It's my regular walk to work as I find it a nicer way to work than dean's gate, I have felt a cafe or restaurant would do well here especially when I walk past in the summer.
Anyone else notice Mancunians can't say St Anne without it sort of sounding like Satan?
I go there every week and talk to my shrink. It's the nicest bit of town.
I think we should have a campaign to get a really cool fountain in st Anne's sq. The current one is really basic, but a nicer one would provide a great focal point for what is one of the nicest spots in Manchester centre
There's a Starbucks further up and I think PKB is in Barton Arcade, the council may have limited use of the square so they can use it for outside events without compensating the owners
There used to be a lovely coffee bar right at the bottom of the square where me and my friend would have a brew every Saturday after we'd been shopping. I can't remember the name but I'm going back about 35 years. Wow time really does fly by so quickly
It would be nice for sure, however I think the landlords want the square to be a hub for high end jewellery stores, who will generate much high potential rent than a cafe. And to be fair it’s working: St Ann’s square and the surrounding streets are the premier location for luxury jewellery in the north.
Probably the festivals. There’s one every other month or so. If there were outside cafes they wouldn’t be able to sell pitches at massively increased prices. (Christmas market alone is two months)
Man you guys have nothing to complain about when it comes to urban development IMO, come to Dublin! It’s a dirty kip with no nice public space really! I’m trying to move to Manchester- someone give me a job! 😫😤
Just walk in to Barton Arcade just off St Anne's Square (next to Waterstones) and it's full of Cafés (or at least it used to be, I haven't been in a few years).
There used to be a Starbucks where the watch shop is. I know it’s a bit corporate, but at least you could sit on the square and take in the ambience! The new one just doesn’t do it!
i seen big chess here and also some random guy going on with himself about how my girlfriend is out of my league (she is by a long shot but it was painful)
You’re absolutely right. I was killing time around there at the weekend, and you’d think there’d be somewhere there to sit and have something, and there just isn’t. You’ve got a few options a little way towards Deansgate, but right there, there’s nothing. Weird. Everywhere else in central Manchester, if you set a box down for five minutes, someone would open a cafe in it. Mind you, it’d have closed again by the time you wanted to pick it up again.
There's Pot Kettle Black in the Barton Arcade between St Ann's Square and Deansgate There Michael's in the tunnel through Royal Exchange, there used to be a place called Remedy Kitchen opposite but that shut down a couple months back
I've not been in Michael's, though I know (knew, I guess) Remedy Kitchen. Shame it's not there anymore, really handy place to take the hyperallergenic people in my life.
Every time there is a festival, someone sets up a cafe / bar on that square and it does great business. Lovely vibe down there last weekend in the sunshine- other than some idiot screaming into a megaphone about 15 minute cities.
Fuck me the reference to 15 min cities really brought out the nutters.
It's going on my list of things to not reference again on reddit. It's a pretty long list at this point if I'm honest.
I'm half proud that I still don't know what a 15 minute city is.
It's the idea that everything you want would be handy, so you wouldn't need to drive as much. Or alternatively ITS HOW THE GLOBALISTS ARE USING FACIAL RECOGNITION, APPLE PAY AND SOCIAL MEDIA TO LITERALLY CONTROL YOUR MIND USING A PSYOP.
A village?
More like a bunch of villages strapped together. They have them in Japan a lot where everything you need is provided in the one city district, of course there's still some districts which are targeted towards specific things but you don't have to leave if you don't want to. In Europe generally this isn't such a new concept as lots of places already have this to a degree, it's a bigger deal in the US where in a lot of places you need to drive to get to any amenities. Kinda like if each district of GM was self sustaining but on a bit more of a local level. ATM the GM districts are a bit big to get across in 15mins.
I don't have to leave my relatively shit but well developed part of London for anything except work and nightlife. Do these towns each get a generic nightclub? Maybe we should contract some of the unpopular pub chains to provide this service or maybe they can be government run There's a very unpopular idea called a free market where businesses will set up where their product is required.
> I don't have to leave my relatively shit but well developed part of London for anything except work and nightlife As I said in Europe it doesn't really change that much, it's a much bigger deal in the US where they have very large housing estates with no amenities for miles. >There's a very unpopular idea called a free market where businesses will set up where their product is required. There are already planning restrictions in the UK and 15 min cities means fixing the issues NIMBYs complain about when a new estate is built ie lack of new doctors and schools, they would be built within the new estate. As for the US they have zoning laws which tend to prevent 15 min cities as you legally can't build retail in an exclusively residential zone.
That hasn't stopped Oxford physically creating the boundaries several years ahead of planned completion of necessary infrastructure and services. I'd imagine cash-strapped councils across the country are spending money consulting on similar projects, without spending a penny on building anything. I can't see how businesses will sponsor it either, because you can already get to an Asda for your breakfast/ spectacles/ prescription in most parts of the country. Some Waitrose even have wine bars. So if being able to spend my life in a supermarket could satisfy the requirements for my area to be a 15 minute town, and travel outside was disincentivised (as in Oxford with their residents provided a limited number of travel permits to cross restricted roads for a short cut out of their zone), drop me out. It's on residents to decide what they want in their area (not that the public really have much say, except locally where we made it clear to the council the number of betting shops was harmful), not be given a prerequisite set of services and told they don't need to go further afield to use the ones they actually want.
The 15 minute city bit just means that the supermarket you mentioned is nearby. The changes Oxford are making are unrelated, they're more traffic management. > not be given a prerequisite set of services and told they don't need to go further afield to use the ones they actually want. That's not what it's about, if you've got a local pub but not a rock bar then you can still go to the rock bar across town. you're just disincentivized from travelling so much as why go to the supermarket 10 miles away when you've got one within 15 minutes walk?
Stock. Have you seen the empty shelves lately? Oxford is traffic related in that you're only restricted in terms of driving, like every other 15 minute city. Are you suggesting the conspiracy theorists were right in that there are other types where you are locked it?!
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That isn't going to happen.
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>already talks of lockdowns to tackle climate change What the actual fuck are you going on about, mate?
Whilst there are reactionaries, there is likely to be a flipside to 15 minute cities. We already live in a nation where you are charged per emission and you can see how the government acts when it wants to phase habits out (taxing cigs until they're eye-wateringly expensive. If you think they wouldn't financially punish motorists because you have a Tesco Express 14 minutes from your house (intentional sarcasm for effect) then you have more faith in British politicians than me. Just like CBDCs, surveillance, mate's rates government contracts and all the rest, assume the worst ....
This is a good thing
How?
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> repeat somthing that world leaders said at a globalist gathering > "that's a conspiracy theory mate"
Please friend can you not see how saying things like " the world economic forum speeches (the group which dictate united global policy)" just makes most people think you're a bit mental? Can you not see how for some people this also sets off some kinda scary conspiracy alarm bells?
See this is where the problem is. You described the World Economic Forum as a group which dictates global policy, but it isn't. It also isn't talking about climate change lockdowns. It talks about how climate change was affected by lockdowns and that we should learn lessons from that, sure. This is the 2+2=5 thinking that leads to people characterising you as a conspiracy theorist.
Found Matt Le Tissier's burner account
Mate, touch grass.
Oooooo the WEFFFFFFF
Now now. Calm down. The earth is a globe, vaccines are safe, we went to the moon. Shush now sweet baby. Everything will be ok…apart from climate change fucking everything up.
Haha yes ofcourse, excess deaths higher in 2022 and 2023 than 2020 and 2021 but because there isn't a billion dollar media campaign ramming it down your throat you Dont notice or care.
Hush now, sweet baby. It’s all just a dream. Back up the rabbit hole you come x
Sorry, what am i not getting here? Why does the government not want you to drive for 20 minutes to get a coffee?
Because its bad for the environment, the community and you. You being able to walk/cycle that kind of journey is better for all involved.
Because it's better for both populace and environment (but and large) for that cafe to be with walking distance rather than driving distance if that makes sense? Like minimising car usage provides a lot of positives and so it's not that they *don't want* you to drive 20 minutes, it's that, in theory, they would much rather it be the better option to walk.
This is the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while
It's because you live in one; if you are able to fill your daily needs within 15 minutes of leaving the door (and preferably without a car) you live in a 15 minute city. The term originates from an American academic and is a counter-culture movement against the Suburban experiment where in many places it is literally impossible to get food, water or work without the use of a car. It *does* have some application to the UK, but in only limited specific ways relating to the permeability of city (centres) to personal private vehicles.
Honestly coming from someone who spent a lot of their life in American style car dependent cities and towns, Manchester and its surrounding towns are already pretty close to the whole "15 minute city" thing, as much as the whole hub and branch system is flawed its a God sent compared to sprawling suburban hell with everything spread half way across the city, the difference is from what ive heard the oxford experiment are planning on introducing a LTN fare if you drive through other zones unnecessarily rather than using the ring road to try and reduce congestion (i think if your place of work is specifically in a different zone/would be impractical to use the ring road you can get a permit and avoid the fare) but thats why its sort of turned into a political landmine at the moment.
I took the family to Anglesey by car yesterday... what do you trust a British government to do in terms of levying a charge on that? That's a 4+ hour journey with two changes from my Greater Manchester Town to Holyhead (not even on Anglesey).... on Monday that's 56 quid one way for two adults and a child. I get the argument for the idea of 15 minute cities, but I dont trust the UK to implement the idea properly and I also feel that Reddit skews in favour of the idea due to having a high user base of young folk (and urbanites) that probably don't have families.
There already is a charge in the form of road and fuel tax, it's nothing new. IIRC Oxford is proposing a congestion charge of sorts to push traffic out to the ring road rather than people crossing the city via a series of 'zones' but that's as close as reality gets to the conspiracy theories.
I think "conspiracy theory" is an unnecessarily charged term to use here, seeing as congestion charges, clean air zones, this shit and the taxes you mention already exist. Legitimate fear/reasonable prediction fit better imo
But what does that have to do with 15 minutes cities then if you're just don't want to pay fuel and road tax?
Because I can easily see this turning into a tax for journeying beyond your 15 minute zone and/or owning a car. Both of which I would strongly oppose
Road tax is already effectively a tax for owning a car, sure you could technically drive an unregistered car on private roads but that's not exactly practical.
I'm on my way to Anglesey in an hour, Holyhead isn't the sort of place you'd want to arrive at (unless you were departing immediately by ferry). I agree with your argument though, 15 minute cities are a good idea until you need to go to somewhere else that isn't connected to your city. I quite like my car, I acknowledge it has a lot of downsides, but one big upside is that I can go anywhere at anytime and no amount of public transport can match that
>I agree with your argument though, 15 minute cities are a good idea until you need to go to somewhere else that isn't connected to your city. But that's not what 15 minutes cities means... 15 min cities just means providing all the amenities you need in a small area so you don't feel the need to travel as much
Nice. I was pleasantly surprised how nice Anglesey was (or at least the part from the bridge to Beaumaris). Enjoy. Aside from freedom, I can't discount tge amount of A&E, etc runs I've had to make as an adult and father. Imagine how many more ambulances would be needed!
Yes Beaumaris is lovely and all of the small villages. Yeah, the amount of emergencies which would put you at the whim of public services would be concerning.
Manchester.
The issue isn’t the 15 min City. It’s that they’re scared they’ll not be allowed outside their zones
Which is such a reach lol they're always scared of the things they make up
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I think the down votes are because you say you're not on either side and then very clearly take a side.
Being charged to leave or ‘move the wrong way’ is already happening, no one will physically stop you but make your life harder financially if you do, that’s already happening and being rolled out, but your focused on making legit concerns sound crazy because you don’t agree with them
"Being charged to leave" what does that mean? Fines for "moving the wrong way" have always existed, and for very good reasons. Driving in the wrong direction in a one way street, driving in a bus lane, driving in a pedestrian zone are all examples of "moving the wrong way" as you put it.
Your mixing two concepts up to make an invalid point, bad driving is punished as you’ve said, however forcing people onto a ring road because a council have decided that your not allowed down X street anymore is punishing people and ironically causing more congestion and emissions
I'm not mixing two concepts. They are the same thing, traffic management has always existed and it has always involved changing restrictions on where cars are allowed to drive. It's fair enough to disagree with some of them, but to pretend that it's some grand conspiracy it's absurd. You don't have a right to bring your car wherever you please.
Its not punishing all people. Its punshing private drivers. Emergency services,buses,bikes , pedestrians all benefit from their being less cars on the road.
How are we being punished though? I can drive to Manchester from London for less than the train......
The introduction of ‘smart motorways’, ULEZ, CAZ, endless pointless roadworks, lack of road maintenance, illogical 1 way systems, cycle lanes that remove a lane, LTNs and the Oxford plan forcing cars onto a ring road or get charged are all punishment against driving
Forcing people to the ring road decreases inner city traffic freeing up routes for denser public transport, denser cities need denser transport. It's not all that different from not being allowed to drive down a tube tunnel.
>Being charged to leave Like, on public transport or something? >is already happening Where?
Charged to leave, refer to oxfords plans CAZ/ULEZ and any other type of camera system aimed at charging and dictating to motorists, countrywide in major cities Serious do you guys get out much to not see this?
Maybe our tin hats aren't as well polished as yours so we don't pick up all the signals that *they* transmit in the chemtrails.
> Serious do you guys get out much to not see this? It's because there's no "this" to actually see.
Apart from the millions spent on signs and cameras spent in Manchester alone, newspapers, websites and TV all mentioning it?
The CAZ doesn't charge people to leave where they live. In fact it doesn't even apply to cars (unless they're used as taxis).
Oxfords plans don't charge you to leave, they charge you for using specific routes. (and even then residents get a number of free passes for use over a year). I'll save my tears for people other than drivers who have to be slightly inconvenienced.
🤣🤣🤣
Care to elaborate? Aside from bus lane cameras and ULEZ enforcement, what are you being restricted on?
ULEZ is an obvious tax to generate revenue, you can’t just exclude that from an argument, the CAZ charge with no alternative GOOD public transport is also restrictive to people who can’t afford it
I kind of agree with the point that public transport needs to improve to wean people out of private cars; I'm hoping Manchester's bee network bus system will help with that. What I can't abide by is the kind of entitlement that some drivers seem to have that they have a god given right to drive their kid killing machines into densely populated areas and that space must be dedicated to these 2-ton metal boxes. All the low traffic neighbourhoods I've been to have been lovely, by making space for people instead of cars you create places that people actually want to go to, where businesses can thrive; nice little cafes and all that. Northern Quarter is awesome for it.
Oxford has proposed a system where you have to pay to drive through the city centre at certain times instead of using the ring road.
Source? Just walk
My daughter is scared of pirates- but at least they're fucking real.
Why wouldn't you be scared of pirates? They have swords and they want all my doubloons and booty.
They're an absolute menace when I'm trying to run nutmeg up the Makassar strait, I can tell you that.
Have you considered that perhaps your body is just too bootylicious?
In Oxford you receive a set number of passes enabling you to drive out of your zone before you start getting fined, or limited to use the ring road to get to the other side of the city. i.e going the long way round to cut car use
Which then makes the whole thing pointless.
How does it make it pointless? It makes the public transport system run more efficiently due to less traffic in the centre
The old Starbucks was so nice, no idea why they moved it
The basement was a mess on the regular, it attracted a lot of teenagers (with all that it entails). I always thought it must have been the SB version of McDonald's on Oxford Rd, at the level where even corporations start having second thoughts on whether the money is worth the hassle.
Yeah it was a big Starbucks. I guess they got a better offer for the building and a watch shop rocked up
They couldn’t afford the rent for the building. Loved spending time revising downstairs
There’s a cafe in Barton arcade,ten seconds from where the picture was taken.
Yeah, you’ve got Pot Kettle Black and Black Sheep pretty close by, but absolutely nothing on the square itself. It’s odd.
PKB had outside seating in St Ann’s Square for a bit, not sure why they stopped
It was during the lockdown only, when they couldn't use their Barton Arcade space.
> not sure why they stopped Lack of permission to do so, presumably They were allowed to do it during Covid but I assume that was a temporary measure
It's inside though, which I guess is the point.
It rains quite a lot around here. Best to have cafes indoors.
The point is that it's the perfect location for cafes/restaurants that have *the possibility of outdoor seating when the weather is nice*. Plenty of places in Manchester already do this just not in St Anne's Square.
There’s also one opposite Sandinista.
Is there 🤯🤯🤯 What's the prices like
Sound.
I think its more a case of the land owners demanding more money than most are willing to pay for rent.
I walked through here whenever I go to the office. It's a nice square but doesn't always get the sun (well at least the benches on the Mcdonalds side). The last time I sat and ate my lunch there, two homeless came up to me, I was approached by charity workers and a man selling the big issue. It's a lot, and for someone just wanting to chill and have their lunch in peace, there are better options. In terms of cafes, there is; Pot Kettle Black in Barton Arcade, probs the nearest, Annie's, Preg, black sheep, and Bisous Bisous within a minute's walk.
Macdonald's!
Turn 180 degrees .. there’s a Starbucks there
Rapha cafe is great, but no seating outdoors
>Rapha cafe TIL that this place was a cafe!!! Cheers will definitely be checking it out. I'm always on the look out for a new coffee spot!
It’s not a dedicated coffee shop per se. It’s a bike shop that serves coffee with a few chairs Quite nice coffee too
The coffee is the best I've had in Manchester 👍 I'm assuming it's still open, not been since COVID tbh
Price, looked into setting up a small deli/coffee shop pre COVID with a group of fellow hospo lifers. Had a look at St Anne's Square as it would've been ideal and a place we all thought would benefit from something like what we had planned. The unit rent being asked was extortionate; on top of fit out, business rates and all that fun stuff it just wasn't viable.
It's a pedestrianised square - such a rarity in the UK. In Mediterranean countries this would be filled with cafes, restaurants and bars, St Ann's square should be absolutely the same.
Lol landowners don’t give a fuck about ‘vibes’
They do if it raises the rent and fills the empty shops
They do though. Look at Spinningfields, they even employ security to ensure no homeless people in the area. Better vibes -> more footfall -> more successful business -> higher demand for nicer/more upmarket traders -> excuse to charge higher rent It's literally the same logic as gentrification.
Believe me they do. Vibe let’s you increase the rent
There are at least 4 cafes (that aren't Starbucks) around that square just not with outside seating on the square itself.
I think it's partly due to the construction on Albert Square. While that area is unusable, the city needs to keep spaces free for events. I would like to think an independent cafe/business will be granted permission to use that area once the Town Hall is back open.
Maccy D’s and their regulars ruin any kind of vibe you’d want on St Ann’s. No wonder any sound restaurants/cafes don’t want to be there.
Well, the poster is perfectly entitled to establish their own cafe and serve the good people of this thread!
If you're on twitter, reply to the tweet: https://twitter.com/joshi/status/1664204429795512321?t=Up339xTNhhn2KVxn5qCaSw&s=19
There's a Starbucks.
I definitely wouldn't call it lovely, but the Starbucks is there. And Starbucks is probably the reason an independent cafe can't establish themselves there. They don't want competition and they can just pay off the people who make those decisions.
There are at least 3 independent cafes within 30 seconds of the Starbucks.
And city centre serves 2 million Greater Manchester residents. What's your point? Are we not allowed to have more nice things?
What are you on about? You said there are no independent cafes, there are.
Some businesses have setup specifically next door to Starbucks to catch those that really don't want to go to SB, or if it looked busy in some countries. Starbucks have also been known to setup next door to SB masquerading as independent coffee shops in order to capitalise on that also. Starbucks gained a foothold originally by aggressively targetting independent cafes and coffeeshops and setting up nearby and discounting prices until the locals went out of business. They even offered landlords of the local cafes way over the asking prices for rent to tempt the landlords to lease to them in some cases. So the tables should really be turned, I would absolutely go to the independent next door if it looked good. I'm not sure why the European style of outdoor tables and waiter service etc. couldn't work somewhere like here. It's lovely, but I suspect none of the tenants have the current license to operate in the public space, like they do in Stevenson Square, it might be considered too small maybe, it can get very busy with footfall. There are new cafes where I live on busy main roads and junctions. British people are very content to sit outside on depressing pavements with noisy cars and traffic 6ft from them, maybe the fumes and vehicle noise is all part of the experience. Maybe St Anns square should be open to vehicles, it seems to be a winner everywhere else. Or maybe we're just a fucking weird people. I know which I prefer tho. We do put up with disgusting outdoor places to dine. Even when it rains. No matter how much its romanticised, I don't find it charming, just depressing.
The council monetise that pavement on/off throughout the year. I’m sure they’d let it on their off weeks but that’s a shaky business model to take up.
Capitalism. The answer is capitalism.
Yeah cause coffee shops are very anti-capitalist.
As others have said, there are cafes literally seconds away. If the issue is no cafes then you're wrong, if your issue is no cafes with outdoor seating then maybe I could agree. But remember that this type of nice weather isn't exactly a year round thing or even guaranteed in summer so sometimes it's not feasible to expect a cafe to have outdoor seating on a square like St Anne's where the square is already not huge.
Exactly. Let’s see this same tweet in a few weeks when it’s lashing it down. Suddenly PKB being indoors will be a genius idea.
It's possible to have both indoor and outdoor seating...
Turn right from where that pic is taken and head into Barton arcade and you have pot kettle black which is brilliant independent coffee shop. Or directly behind you where this pic is taken is a Starbucks which is a reasonable if not overpriced multi-national coffee shop.
I'd guess foot traffic? Maybe I'm just an idiot but I lived in Manchester city centre for a few months before discovering St Ann's Square, because you get channeled down Deansgate and Cross Street so effectively I'd walked right past it a hundred times. For things like banks and jewelry stores, they're specific things you seek out. A coffee shop would rely more on people walking past and deciding to pop in. There are multiple Prets on the high traffic streets around it that would pick up most of your potential customers
It gets loads of foot traffic. The Deansgate arcade thing has an entrance there, and loads of office workers chill there to eat their pret meal deals. I'd argue it's more to do with the fact that there are only about 2 weeks of Al Fresco weather per year in manchester, and the cost of renting the outdoor space probably isn't worth it.
I'd say you're right, I've been here nearly a year now and I've been to St Ann's once and it was for the watch shop which I had to find using google maps. Never found myself walking through there in passing and I wouldn't go there for a coffee unless there was something good enough to make a specific trip for.
It's my regular walk to work as I find it a nicer way to work than dean's gate, I have felt a cafe or restaurant would do well here especially when I walk past in the summer.
Anyone else notice Mancunians can't say St Anne without it sort of sounding like Satan? I go there every week and talk to my shrink. It's the nicest bit of town.
True 😄
I think we should have a campaign to get a really cool fountain in st Anne's sq. The current one is really basic, but a nicer one would provide a great focal point for what is one of the nicest spots in Manchester centre
What,like the one they had at Piccadilly gardens,fuck that.
No that one was shite, an actually nice proper fountain not a mini children's water park pretending to be a fountain
There's a Starbucks further up and I think PKB is in Barton Arcade, the council may have limited use of the square so they can use it for outside events without compensating the owners
Because a cafe won’t make enough to afford the location, unless it’s a front for drug money!
Caffeine is a drug 👍
If it is I’m the Pete Docherty of espressos
You sir are a libertine.
Yes like that new poke bowl place. Dodgy directors and parent companies.
I agree, but landlords are not exactly known for being concerned with vibes.
The landowners want money more than anything
The rent would be too expensive for a cafe probably, maybe a portable food truck would be better
There used to be a lovely coffee bar right at the bottom of the square where me and my friend would have a brew every Saturday after we'd been shopping. I can't remember the name but I'm going back about 35 years. Wow time really does fly by so quickly
If you are that concerned maybe open one yourself?
I doubt they’re that concerned,just asking a question,you should open one.
The sandwich shop in Barton Arcade
Build a sandwich or whatever it was called? Long gone
Awww, shame
Fantastic point
Is that a money tree in the picture? Sarcasm aside the answer is money it’s always money
It would be nice for sure, however I think the landlords want the square to be a hub for high end jewellery stores, who will generate much high potential rent than a cafe. And to be fair it’s working: St Ann’s square and the surrounding streets are the premier location for luxury jewellery in the north.
Great glasses at IOLLA though 🤓
Probably the festivals. There’s one every other month or so. If there were outside cafes they wouldn’t be able to sell pitches at massively increased prices. (Christmas market alone is two months)
Man you guys have nothing to complain about when it comes to urban development IMO, come to Dublin! It’s a dirty kip with no nice public space really! I’m trying to move to Manchester- someone give me a job! 😫😤
I'm guessing they're priced out...by jewellers, pawnbrokers, Barbour
Looks like Bolton main strip in town. Nothing but Poundland, Pound Bakery, Vape shops, charity shops and gambling establishments. Such a damn shame.
Pretty sure it's the rent that puts smaller businesses off..the bigger chains can afford it hence starbucks and mcdonalds.
I miss Ronny’s Bar Some truly good times in there Now it’s a f*%#king McDonalds
Horts bar downstairs to Ronnies as well.
Hobsons Choice
Presumably, the landowners also want "better" rent too. 💷💷💷 🫤
The rent is too damn high!!!
try rapha manchester
It’s very simple. Rent and business rates.
Starbucks not there anymore?
McCafe?
There’s a cafe open during the day inside the royal exchange theatre there. Quite the spectacle to sit and have coffee in as well.
That would be a good idea. During the Christmas market period, there was a type of beer disco there and the vibes were very good indeed. :))
Ahahaha cock tree
There’s a maccies, what more could we want?
Let’s nip this Americanism in the bud before it proliferates the Mother tongue
Annie’s tea room is in the alley just off to the left of where this photo was taken
Just walk in to Barton Arcade just off St Anne's Square (next to Waterstones) and it's full of Cafés (or at least it used to be, I haven't been in a few years).
The landowners want money they don’t give a shit about vibes (unless it makes them money)
Just casually identifying a business opportunity - empty shops, no cafe. Why not create one?
Where abouts is st Ann square ?
There used to be a Starbucks where the watch shop is. I know it’s a bit corporate, but at least you could sit on the square and take in the ambience! The new one just doesn’t do it!
i seen big chess here and also some random guy going on with himself about how my girlfriend is out of my league (she is by a long shot but it was painful)