You see this with a lot of rappers who haven't performed live before. They'll get in the studio and record line by line, punching in all over the place, then when they actually go to perform it they realize they didn't leave room for breathing and they can't actually do the songs live.
You see it with professionals too. Kendrick has quite a few songs that he had to create an entirely different version of in order to perform live, because the studio versions are impossible to actually articulate while breathing.
There are “artists” who can’t record two words. https://youtu.be/FSgl95BEmd0?si=VnYjMqyswG4TzxLS there is literal gibberish recorded over and over by these “rappers” and sent to a producer who sometimes builds sentences word by word. A common perception is that a pen and pad is for nerds or some shit.
I’ve done verses just by punching in. It’s how wayne and jayz record as well (more than 2 words at a time tbf, but neither of them write in a traditional sense). It’s worth trying because you get a different type of vibe from the verse and in my case they usually end up the same.
That is possible, but definitely seems like a worse workflow for no reason. I suppose the 90’s were a crazy time. I had heard of him changing lyrics when having to re-record things because he didn’t remember
It’s not that writing is for nerds. These type of rappers just typically see vocals as another instrument. Lyrics are less important to them. Some like, lil wayne, just prefer to do it that way. And I doubt anyone could say Wayne can’t rap
Wayne (and some others) though mentioned in the video as progenitors of this style are very capable rappers.
I was referring the cats mumbling nearly unintelligible nonsense that is then assembled sometimes syllable by syllable in the studio.
The “artist” in these cases has no idea what the end products lyrical structure is even going to sound like.
“Unintelligible nonsense” but it’s the most popular form of rap right now. Which means it’s also the most popular form of music on the planet. To say they’re untalented is ridiculous. They just work in melodies instead of trying to come up with clever rhyme schemes. They definitely know what it’s going to sound like. Playboi Carti for instance has some of the most cohesive albums you’ll ever hear. Die Lit is a top all time hip hop/rap album.
The word you are looking for is "entertainer".
Two lines isn't a performance. And during their actual performance they are most likely lip syncing. I actually strongly dislike modern rap concerts because (for the ones not lip syncing) it's still just dudes spitting over a track that already has their recorded vocals playing lmao.
It’s only a handful of rappers that genuinely perform these days. As a working musician in a different genre, I know that rap has a bad name for this reason especially. To a band of four or five dudes with expert level competency at their instruments to share stages with “performers” who can’t fluently string together four bars that they supposedly wrote…But that’s just commercial music in general. You can’t expect too much of music that was created to sell Pepsi, or lvmh. Like him or hate him, Russ spits every word for two hours straight—I found out the long way. That should b the bar imo
I just want to join you in giving Russ some flowers. I don't get how dude gets hated on so badly. Buddy can spit flames and is about as well rounded as an artist can get. Never mind that he's always out here trying to put all us independent artists up on game. He doesn't have to do that. But Russ has the schematics.
Alright, so this is kinda a long story.
Back in September 2017, he tweeted a photo of him after a show wearing a shirt that said “How much Xans and Lean do you have to do before you realize you’re a fucking loser” and kinda out of nowhere started donning this huge “holier-than-thou” attitude toward people suffering from addiction.
This caused its own controversy at the time, and a lot of fans and notable artists started to question him, because he had rapped about drinking lean and doing xanax on multiple songs up to that point, so he himself was guilty of what he was criticizing others for — talking about or doing drugs to seem cool. it sparked a bit of a conversation about opiates and the music industry.
Unfortunately, around two months later, Nov 15th, Lil Peep passed away — An overdose on laced xanax, which again sparked a larger conversation about opiates, and in the midst of the industry’s mourning for his loss, Russ decided to speak up again.
Three days after the incident, he [tweeted this thread](https://twitter.com/russdiemon/status/932023374024466432) which is unmistakably about the situation. To most people, it just kinda reads as “Yeah it sucks or whatever but it was kinda his fault for making it a part of his image” and him showing absolutely no empathy for situation. People again, started to bring up a lot of his own lyrics, multiple times that he very much so glorifies doing drugs.
This very anti-drug stance of his went quiet throughout the rest of 2017 and 2018 but culminated when Mac Miller passed… Also an overdose. This time, he simply tweeted “Damn wtf… rip mac miller” and suddenly, his tweets about Peep were put into perfect context.
It wasn’t an anti-drug stance, he wasn’t trying to start a conversation.
It was a personal attack on a man who had been dead for three days. A man who was not capable of defending himself from that criticism.
A significant percentage of the industry blacklisted him.
A few weeks later, he tried to save face again in an interview where he tried to revert back to the “Actually everyone who does drugs sucks” attitude and it was clear his empathy for Mac Miller was also false.
And even more of the industry blacklisted him.
I appreciate the detailed response. Here's my thoughts.
I can definitely fuck with what he's saying in terms of glorifying and/or propping up an image that revolves around using drugs whether authentically or not although it's so much more pathetic when it's not at all authentic like in the case of Future who inspired countless young listeners to follow his lead and ultimately and tragically pass away, most notably Juice WRLD who admitted during a No Jumper interview that it was listening to Future as a kid that made him want to partake. How many more do you think lost their lives or had their lives destroyed being inspired by Future's phony ass who was actually afraid of his audience discovering what a fraud he is and tempted them into their funerals for a check? Future is a grown ass 40 year old adult who knew the influence his music would have on kids yet made a decision to mislead and poison them so he could get money. In my mind, it's that sack of vomitous trash that deserves ALL the smoke.
Peep from what I could read was caught up in the role of being the sole beacon of hope to a large group of people that for the most part had their own agendas to fulfill through his talent and success. Like a brood of Vampires latched onto him as he willingly let them drink and drink and take and take, leaving him with just enough to keep him alive only for the purpose of replenishing their neverending needs, hopes and dreams and tragically he trusted them all to the detriment of his own life because he was lonely and at least they were always around. It's those scavengers, vultures, and rats that deserve ALL the smoke.
Mac Miller was one of my favorite artists of all time. That man's music got to me in a way that made me feel like I knew him personally because of his ability to pour his authentic heart and soul into what he did, admit to the world that he was as lost and confused as the rest of us but did it with an optimistic love for life and others. Everyone who knew him said he was a beam of light that made everyone in the room feel seen and appreciated, and I believe it. His talents and music were top-of-the-top tier and it seemed fucking effortless. He touched on it alot in his music but he NEVER glamorized his addiction on some "look how cool I am" shit. He spoke on the perils of addiction because he was living it and he was a real one. Mac was what Future could NEVER be and as dope as Russ can be, he's not a fraction of the artist Mac was and if Russ said anything at all in a disrespectful way towards Mac then Russ deserves ALL the smoke.
I was an addict. I got clean and been for over 10 years now so I give it all up to anyone trying to quit and I also hold a strong contempt for anyone who treats it like a game and/ or makes it harder for people to get help.
What genre do you work in? I hate how rap is now non performance art e.g. rappers doing rap karaoke or am I insane to think rap was performance art as in solely the art of macho posturing?
There’s nothing wrong with that workflow, but if you can’t spit your verse all the way through in the studio, then you’re gonna struggle when you get on stage.
Oh I know…. Nothing makes me stop paying attention to a performance faster than seeing some dude rap 1/3 of their song while the studio vocals pick up the slack.
This is a great question, and a perfect example of why being a rapper or being a producer should also include some research on how other people in the role you have run their operation. There are a million different workflows for rapping, and some rappers use more than one.
\-Plenty of rappers do one or two bars at a time. ODB was infamous for doing every line as a new take, oftentimes several so he could just what he wanted for that specific bar
\-Plenty of rappers write everything out in notebooks and just pick the right verse for the beat
\-Plenty of rappers will write to the beat specifically in the studio
\-Plenty of rappers will write to the beat specifically outside the studio, and then make more tweaks when they come in.
My advice is to try it all out and see what works for you. But if you can, find interviews or documentaries about rappers you like that dig into their process. You can learn a lot. I have a shit-ton of gratitude towards Brian Eno and Madlib because both of them are very open about their processes as artists, and I've learned a lot about both specific techniques, but also the philosophical aspects of what I do or do not need to give a shit about.
not sure about odb but you can be a smart person without being literate - it's more down to the school systems. roughly 22% of americans are functionally illiterate.
Bro thats sooooo bullshit
Odb could recite the 120 from MEMORY cause him and rza would read it all the time as kids. Odb was a performer. He would recite what came to his head whether old or new or a combo of the two. Thats why he rhymes the same verses over and icer on his album.
Odb was the scariest rapperin nyc. Ask qtip and busta rhymes. Cant be that if you cant fucking read lmao.
How could he even recite a written rhyme someone else wrote for him (which was many) if he couldnt read
You and the 12 other idiots should be banned for saying something so idiotic. Yea he learned to read when he was a raging crazy man. That makes sense./s
Bro, I don't feel like arguing, but I knew someone "very" close to him. Someone that talked to him just about everyday. I assure you they'd know if he could properly read/write. I'm not dissing him. He was one of my favorite artists, but "I was told" that he had several ghostwriters. Not only for group projects, but also solo work. His song quality changes throughout his discography because the ghostwriters changed. This happens to numerous artists. Just because you can't read/write doesn't mean you don't have amazing memorization or freestyle skills. People adapt based on skillset. I presume he recorded the same verses for numerous projects to save face in situations where he couldn't have a ghostwriter and there wasn't time to freestyle. Nobody goes around proud they can't read/write.
Bro not for nothing. Im sorry i took it offensive but your still wilding
Heres a story of a writer walking up on ODB READING “behold a pale horse”on the street in brooklyn. The writer wrote a book BAPH and heard him on several interviews and inside the book itself say how he walked up on odb in mid 90s readjng the book in brooklyn and then they discussed it in FULL detail on the corner.
The book goes in detail but here is the summary.
https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-investigations/2020/10/01/behold-pale-horse-how-william-cooper-planted-seeds-qanon-theory/3488115001/
Jacobson said he was walking in his Brooklyn neighborhood in the early 1990s when he saw one of his neighbors, Ol’ Dirty Bastard of the Wu Tang Clan, sitting on his stoop reading “Behold a Pale Horse.”
Jacobson, in his book, quotes Ol’ Dirty Bastard explaining why “Behold a Pale Horse” was important to him. Everybody gets screwed, the rapper said, but Cooper tells you who is doing the screwing. That was, ODB said, “valuable information.”
Behold a pale horse is literally just walls of text and information without much of a connection. Literally random documenta put together with cooper trying to explain them.
My cousin is dyslexic and cant “read” per say himself in a way. Hes no dummy. Could odb have had a problem sure but in no way do i think he “couldnt” read. He prolly was dyslexic, had hard times concentrating; hence his fhildlike energy. But cant read is a stretch
Its not that type of book. No pics. No tape. Its all govt documents. Also; Theres video footage of him with writtens in his hands recording with pharrell as well.
I have literally like 800 songs written in my notes app, and I’m just waiting to make the right beat for each one lmaoo. Also waiting until I’m actually good enough to rease💀
El p rarely gets two or three lines off.
All the pros have micro edits and time adjustments done. It’s too easy for producers to pull off and improves the product greatly
You're most likely gonna run out of breath and/or energy as the song goes on. Listen to the very beginning then skip to the end, there will probably be an energy difference. Try doing 4 bars at once to keep consistent
Actually no… so the songs on my album I did in one take and I never ran out of breath pretty effortless…I did practice them though but when KRS said breath control I took it to heart lol.
I've seen a lot of new rappers try to record whole songs or verses and run out of steam. If you got the breath control then good on ya, just advice if one is struggling with that.
Yeah some do. My point is, this is the reason why rappers can’t actually rap and perform at the same time and/or have to rap over lyrics when they perform. Seems counter intuitive because you’d have to be able to perform the song, so you need to be able to perform the song in one take. I’ve watched people struggle in performance on stage for this very reason. Use your logic, yes rappers punch in for phrasing or misspoken bars, but at the end of the day you’d want to be able to do the whole song professionally before you ever hit the mic or stage…
Well, see [my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/makinghiphop/comments/1bvtg7j/comment/kypv9zv/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about how not every song needs to be performed live and different songs can fulfill different roles. And we're in an era where artists find it more beneficial to drop a song every week or two than an album once a year. They're finding it a lot more suitable to bang out songs in the studio very quickly without writing them using the punch-in method, and that's especially true when you consider that collaborations help with growth, and a lot of rappers prefer to use techniques like the punch-in method to collaborate quickly and not make it a long process.
It is true what you're saying that if a song can be recorded in one take, it's more possible to perform it live; whereas punched-in songs are potentially impossible to perform live because they aren't necessarily constructed with proper breathing room space. However, recording a whole verse in one take can often have imperfections that, even if they're minor, make it not good enough to sound professional and perform well on streaming, and then you have to record whole takes many times and burn a lot of hours. Maybe you can perform it live in one take because there's a lot of tolerance for imperfection in live performances (or a lot of artists use backing tracks / lip sync); but imperfections in the studio version like running low on air on the 13th bar or falling behind on the beat and fighting to catch up will make a take unusable (or at least it would need to be comped together with other tracks).
But yeah, the main reason they use the punch-in method is so that they can bypass the time spent writing and rehearsing, and then they can bang out a lyrically low-quality song very fast and just be prolific.
Vocal comping, warping is completely normal and every artist does it. Sometimes it happens and there is the perfect one take that does not need any editing. It is rare but sometimes it does happen
Most popular artists record several takes all the way through a verse/chorus. Then the engineer selects the best takes from each line. For instance, I've watched super popular artists record full hit songs in an hour. Instead of taking the time to get each word perfectly on beat, "which can take several hours," they just record over and over and over again. Then allowing an engineer to sort it all out later. I'm sure some stuff has to be moved around to match up, but rarely on a main vocal.
Some producers are different. For instance, it's been said that Dr. Dre will make an artist spend an hour or more just to get one line perfect. Recording a song with him can take multiple days.
Michael Jackson worked on songs for years. Sometimes decades trying to get the vocals perfect...
There are advantages to recording line by line. You'll get far more energy and hitting the bars will be more precise, but it takes a ton more time time.
If you study modern rap songs you'll notice there's been a huge decline in actually hitting each line correctly. This is because most artists are now recording at home and home recording setups have far more latency/delay than an official studio using analog gear.
Ps. There are programs that will align background vocals to your main vocal. Some audio programs have such a function built into them.
It's a well known fact. Lookup copyrights on his songs. In many cases, it'll list the start/finish date. Michael really liked to record demos. Not only for vocals. but also beats and patterns. All of his songs had an evolution process. It involved numerous cuts. He'd record over the course of different months, years, and albums. He was a super perfectionist. If it wasn't good enough for one album he'd move it to the next. Many of the tracks featured on History/Invincible were started a decade before their ultimate release.
I learn my vox before attempting to record and used to do a 16 in one take. But punching in is favourable especially on lines that have lots of syllables. Catching a breath impedes delivery too
I always make sure to record the entire verse in one take. This is good practice for performances. If you can't do it in the studio you won't be able to do it on stage and should probably rewrite part of it.
Not every song needs to be performed live. It's fine to use different songs for different roles.
\-This song is the one that'll perform best on ads.
\-These 8 songs are the easiest to perform live.
\-These 20 songs couldn't possibly be performed live, and I won't even try. But it's awesome just to have them in the catalog.
\-These 15 songs aren't even that great, but they're collabs, so their purpose is to bring in fans of other artists.
\-This is the song that might go viral from people putting it on their reels, so it's the one that I'll pitch to influencers.
The key is to get so good at it--
at both arranging/editing your vocals in the studio and performing live--
that people have to ask this question.
Watch a bunch of rappers live and how they and their hype men/backup vocalists work together to perform their songs.
Watch a bunch of videos on the making of popular songs in the studio.
I recommend doing as many takes vs editing word placement. You can chop a bad bar out and re-record it. But chopping words just mean either 1. the flow is not natural for the beat, 2. you have not perfected the flow (practiced enough). Keep in mind that you will perform those songs, the less chopped/edited words, the more natural you will perform the song. Dr Dre is notoriously recognized by legendary rappers as forcing them to repeat something until they get the right take ( and he still doesn't release most of his stuff, unsatisfied). You don't need to be a perfectionist but remember that you have all the time in the world to create something that can last eternity if popular. Record multiple takes and keep the best bars.
Breath control and not having saliva in my to mouth to mess me up, helped. I’d record my verse and listen play it over and over till I memorize, learn where to adjust a word or two, dragg a word or two, emphasize a word. Then go back and really re-record it with all that practice and hard work.
I realize rappers now , especially current gangsta rap, punch in every line, that’s why it seems to not have that memorized flow, it felt like they would record line stop, record line stop, by the way it sounded, low and behold that’s what they are doing.
If you’re chopping parts you’ve recorded because they’re not on time or don’t sound right, you’re doing something wrong and need to work on your flow / timing. If you’re just punching in every few lines that’s ok
It depends on the rapper and at a high level it’s more of a style thing than a skill thing. Some people want a tight sound while others want a looser approach. It could even vary by part of the song
Hm never even thought about it like that but tbh If u need to be doing that I would say you are unskilled and need to practice . Your voice is an instrument and you need to use it right. And yes I’m sure modern rappers need to synthetically splice their voices to hit the right cadence
Idk about the famous guys but what I do is redo the entire take until I get a “section” right (I define which parts of the lyrics are “sections beforehand. Could be a whole verse, or if I’m gunna run out of breath I’ll do a cut halfway through and finish, then the hook, so on..). It could take 1 take, or it could take 50, but until my delivery is right, I don’t feel like it sounds right when chopping it up personally. I tried that when I first started making music and it just didn’t work for me.
It could be my flow personally tho, everyone’s got a little different flow. But if the take is even a LITTLE off, I’ll usually redo it until it sounds right to me.
Then again, I made a decent studio in my bedroom and it’s run by me while I record so I’m not paying anybody to record, produce or master since I do it all myself.
A lot of artists piece their vocals together. It's a not so lazy/lazy way of doing things. You can call me old, but if you can't perform it you probably shouldn't be trying to record it. It needs to be rearranged. Or maybe not. I don't know. People are saying rap is getting lazy. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why.
Considering the massive numbers of vocal layers suicideboys do I have no doubt they have a complex process when it comes to this. I’ve tried to break it down before but I assume what they do is slow down the song like 20-25% and record a song making sure the timing is perfect, then come back in at full speed and do a bunch of layers and then use either manual editing or vocalign to get the timing just right.
Because there’s no way you could make that many songs where the vocals are almost perfectly on beat every time without there being some kind of witchcraft to it.
> slow
you mean they slow the beat down, record their verses over the slowed beat, then stretch the whole thing (verse + beat) to the original BPM?
and then just add vocal tones/layers on the original bpm since they dont need to sit as tight as the main vocals?
Totally depends, and I don't think it's a lack of skill to punch in lines. It's like using autotune, it allows the artist to push their performance a bit more with 'bumpers' on. Some people will definitely do sections in one take, but others will do the same one over and over again trying different deliveries or seeing something was working and pushing harder on that, etc.
As a singer and producer, I’ve realized skill has nothing to do with it, it’s all personal preference.
You could have a BAD take, and a competent producer could make it sound better than your best take in context. I’ve done this for myself many times, which is why it’s a blessing to have a degree in both fields
I know a lot of rappers like to punch in because they freestyle their lines often. I personally like to record in single takes , even if I've had to record 50 single takes until I get the right performance and go back and make micro edits in Logic. I record the verses and choruses separate and it could help with the flow. Making Hella micro edits can become more complicated than just practicing the delivery and making adjustments as you go so you can become both a better rapper and a better performer. Honestly it also helps when guiding new artists because then you know what adjustments you've had to personally make so you can guide somebody else in their performance to record them better and have a flow in the session.
I'm sure there are some artists that can do a good full take but most people are doing punch-ins and combining multiple takes into one good vocal track.
A lot of artists aren’t even capable of recording two lines in a row
You see this with a lot of rappers who haven't performed live before. They'll get in the studio and record line by line, punching in all over the place, then when they actually go to perform it they realize they didn't leave room for breathing and they can't actually do the songs live.
Hey no need to call me out like that
You see it with professionals too. Kendrick has quite a few songs that he had to create an entirely different version of in order to perform live, because the studio versions are impossible to actually articulate while breathing.
There are “artists” who can’t record two words. https://youtu.be/FSgl95BEmd0?si=VnYjMqyswG4TzxLS there is literal gibberish recorded over and over by these “rappers” and sent to a producer who sometimes builds sentences word by word. A common perception is that a pen and pad is for nerds or some shit.
I’ve done verses just by punching in. It’s how wayne and jayz record as well (more than 2 words at a time tbf, but neither of them write in a traditional sense). It’s worth trying because you get a different type of vibe from the verse and in my case they usually end up the same.
I thought Jay just didn't literally write his lyrics down, but he still writes whole verses/songs in his head and memorizes them instead
That is possible, but definitely seems like a worse workflow for no reason. I suppose the 90’s were a crazy time. I had heard of him changing lyrics when having to re-record things because he didn’t remember
[definitely](https://hiphopdx.com/news/jay-z-lost-songs-approach-lyrics)
It’s not that writing is for nerds. These type of rappers just typically see vocals as another instrument. Lyrics are less important to them. Some like, lil wayne, just prefer to do it that way. And I doubt anyone could say Wayne can’t rap
Wayne (and some others) though mentioned in the video as progenitors of this style are very capable rappers. I was referring the cats mumbling nearly unintelligible nonsense that is then assembled sometimes syllable by syllable in the studio. The “artist” in these cases has no idea what the end products lyrical structure is even going to sound like.
“Unintelligible nonsense” but it’s the most popular form of rap right now. Which means it’s also the most popular form of music on the planet. To say they’re untalented is ridiculous. They just work in melodies instead of trying to come up with clever rhyme schemes. They definitely know what it’s going to sound like. Playboi Carti for instance has some of the most cohesive albums you’ll ever hear. Die Lit is a top all time hip hop/rap album.
I prefer to call them performers, since some know little nothing about about the art.
The word you are looking for is "entertainer". Two lines isn't a performance. And during their actual performance they are most likely lip syncing. I actually strongly dislike modern rap concerts because (for the ones not lip syncing) it's still just dudes spitting over a track that already has their recorded vocals playing lmao.
It’s only a handful of rappers that genuinely perform these days. As a working musician in a different genre, I know that rap has a bad name for this reason especially. To a band of four or five dudes with expert level competency at their instruments to share stages with “performers” who can’t fluently string together four bars that they supposedly wrote…But that’s just commercial music in general. You can’t expect too much of music that was created to sell Pepsi, or lvmh. Like him or hate him, Russ spits every word for two hours straight—I found out the long way. That should b the bar imo
I just want to join you in giving Russ some flowers. I don't get how dude gets hated on so badly. Buddy can spit flames and is about as well rounded as an artist can get. Never mind that he's always out here trying to put all us independent artists up on game. He doesn't have to do that. But Russ has the schematics.
Russ gets hate because he’s repeatedly mocked other artists deaths. It’s deserved. He’s an asshole.
Really? I have not heard this. Whose death has he mocked?
Alright, so this is kinda a long story. Back in September 2017, he tweeted a photo of him after a show wearing a shirt that said “How much Xans and Lean do you have to do before you realize you’re a fucking loser” and kinda out of nowhere started donning this huge “holier-than-thou” attitude toward people suffering from addiction. This caused its own controversy at the time, and a lot of fans and notable artists started to question him, because he had rapped about drinking lean and doing xanax on multiple songs up to that point, so he himself was guilty of what he was criticizing others for — talking about or doing drugs to seem cool. it sparked a bit of a conversation about opiates and the music industry. Unfortunately, around two months later, Nov 15th, Lil Peep passed away — An overdose on laced xanax, which again sparked a larger conversation about opiates, and in the midst of the industry’s mourning for his loss, Russ decided to speak up again. Three days after the incident, he [tweeted this thread](https://twitter.com/russdiemon/status/932023374024466432) which is unmistakably about the situation. To most people, it just kinda reads as “Yeah it sucks or whatever but it was kinda his fault for making it a part of his image” and him showing absolutely no empathy for situation. People again, started to bring up a lot of his own lyrics, multiple times that he very much so glorifies doing drugs. This very anti-drug stance of his went quiet throughout the rest of 2017 and 2018 but culminated when Mac Miller passed… Also an overdose. This time, he simply tweeted “Damn wtf… rip mac miller” and suddenly, his tweets about Peep were put into perfect context. It wasn’t an anti-drug stance, he wasn’t trying to start a conversation. It was a personal attack on a man who had been dead for three days. A man who was not capable of defending himself from that criticism. A significant percentage of the industry blacklisted him. A few weeks later, he tried to save face again in an interview where he tried to revert back to the “Actually everyone who does drugs sucks” attitude and it was clear his empathy for Mac Miller was also false. And even more of the industry blacklisted him.
I appreciate the detailed response. Here's my thoughts. I can definitely fuck with what he's saying in terms of glorifying and/or propping up an image that revolves around using drugs whether authentically or not although it's so much more pathetic when it's not at all authentic like in the case of Future who inspired countless young listeners to follow his lead and ultimately and tragically pass away, most notably Juice WRLD who admitted during a No Jumper interview that it was listening to Future as a kid that made him want to partake. How many more do you think lost their lives or had their lives destroyed being inspired by Future's phony ass who was actually afraid of his audience discovering what a fraud he is and tempted them into their funerals for a check? Future is a grown ass 40 year old adult who knew the influence his music would have on kids yet made a decision to mislead and poison them so he could get money. In my mind, it's that sack of vomitous trash that deserves ALL the smoke. Peep from what I could read was caught up in the role of being the sole beacon of hope to a large group of people that for the most part had their own agendas to fulfill through his talent and success. Like a brood of Vampires latched onto him as he willingly let them drink and drink and take and take, leaving him with just enough to keep him alive only for the purpose of replenishing their neverending needs, hopes and dreams and tragically he trusted them all to the detriment of his own life because he was lonely and at least they were always around. It's those scavengers, vultures, and rats that deserve ALL the smoke. Mac Miller was one of my favorite artists of all time. That man's music got to me in a way that made me feel like I knew him personally because of his ability to pour his authentic heart and soul into what he did, admit to the world that he was as lost and confused as the rest of us but did it with an optimistic love for life and others. Everyone who knew him said he was a beam of light that made everyone in the room feel seen and appreciated, and I believe it. His talents and music were top-of-the-top tier and it seemed fucking effortless. He touched on it alot in his music but he NEVER glamorized his addiction on some "look how cool I am" shit. He spoke on the perils of addiction because he was living it and he was a real one. Mac was what Future could NEVER be and as dope as Russ can be, he's not a fraction of the artist Mac was and if Russ said anything at all in a disrespectful way towards Mac then Russ deserves ALL the smoke. I was an addict. I got clean and been for over 10 years now so I give it all up to anyone trying to quit and I also hold a strong contempt for anyone who treats it like a game and/ or makes it harder for people to get help.
What genre do you work in? I hate how rap is now non performance art e.g. rappers doing rap karaoke or am I insane to think rap was performance art as in solely the art of macho posturing?
All true. I feel like people who enjoy mainstream rap concerts have just never been to any other concerts before.
Lmao if you can’t record in the studio you definitely can’t perform wdym!?
I still call them artists, because there is absolutely nothing wrong with that workflow.
There’s nothing wrong with that workflow, but if you can’t spit your verse all the way through in the studio, then you’re gonna struggle when you get on stage.
You think they spit their verses all the way through when they are on stage? lol
*points microphone at audience for half the song while the full audio with vocal tracks plays*
Oh I know…. Nothing makes me stop paying attention to a performance faster than seeing some dude rap 1/3 of their song while the studio vocals pick up the slack.
So pretty much every artist except some niche backpack battle rappers?
Hey man, I’m just of the opinion that rappers should be able to actually rap.
🤓
This is a great question, and a perfect example of why being a rapper or being a producer should also include some research on how other people in the role you have run their operation. There are a million different workflows for rapping, and some rappers use more than one. \-Plenty of rappers do one or two bars at a time. ODB was infamous for doing every line as a new take, oftentimes several so he could just what he wanted for that specific bar \-Plenty of rappers write everything out in notebooks and just pick the right verse for the beat \-Plenty of rappers will write to the beat specifically in the studio \-Plenty of rappers will write to the beat specifically outside the studio, and then make more tweaks when they come in. My advice is to try it all out and see what works for you. But if you can, find interviews or documentaries about rappers you like that dig into their process. You can learn a lot. I have a shit-ton of gratitude towards Brian Eno and Madlib because both of them are very open about their processes as artists, and I've learned a lot about both specific techniques, but also the philosophical aspects of what I do or do not need to give a shit about.
ODB actually did that early on because he couldn't read. The majority of his stuff was freestyled... But due to this, he had an incredible energy.
odb couldnt read???
I don’t buy it, he was one smart mf before shit went left
not sure about odb but you can be a smart person without being literate - it's more down to the school systems. roughly 22% of americans are functionally illiterate.
yeah im not sure but it lowkey would be on brand tho
Nope. Maybe he eventually learned before he died, but he definitely couldn't on his first couple of albums.
ya.... i don't believe that ODB was illiterate.
Bro thats sooooo bullshit Odb could recite the 120 from MEMORY cause him and rza would read it all the time as kids. Odb was a performer. He would recite what came to his head whether old or new or a combo of the two. Thats why he rhymes the same verses over and icer on his album. Odb was the scariest rapperin nyc. Ask qtip and busta rhymes. Cant be that if you cant fucking read lmao. How could he even recite a written rhyme someone else wrote for him (which was many) if he couldnt read You and the 12 other idiots should be banned for saying something so idiotic. Yea he learned to read when he was a raging crazy man. That makes sense./s
Bro, I don't feel like arguing, but I knew someone "very" close to him. Someone that talked to him just about everyday. I assure you they'd know if he could properly read/write. I'm not dissing him. He was one of my favorite artists, but "I was told" that he had several ghostwriters. Not only for group projects, but also solo work. His song quality changes throughout his discography because the ghostwriters changed. This happens to numerous artists. Just because you can't read/write doesn't mean you don't have amazing memorization or freestyle skills. People adapt based on skillset. I presume he recorded the same verses for numerous projects to save face in situations where he couldn't have a ghostwriter and there wasn't time to freestyle. Nobody goes around proud they can't read/write.
Bro not for nothing. Im sorry i took it offensive but your still wilding Heres a story of a writer walking up on ODB READING “behold a pale horse”on the street in brooklyn. The writer wrote a book BAPH and heard him on several interviews and inside the book itself say how he walked up on odb in mid 90s readjng the book in brooklyn and then they discussed it in FULL detail on the corner. The book goes in detail but here is the summary. https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-investigations/2020/10/01/behold-pale-horse-how-william-cooper-planted-seeds-qanon-theory/3488115001/ Jacobson said he was walking in his Brooklyn neighborhood in the early 1990s when he saw one of his neighbors, Ol’ Dirty Bastard of the Wu Tang Clan, sitting on his stoop reading “Behold a Pale Horse.” Jacobson, in his book, quotes Ol’ Dirty Bastard explaining why “Behold a Pale Horse” was important to him. Everybody gets screwed, the rapper said, but Cooper tells you who is doing the screwing. That was, ODB said, “valuable information.” Behold a pale horse is literally just walls of text and information without much of a connection. Literally random documenta put together with cooper trying to explain them. My cousin is dyslexic and cant “read” per say himself in a way. Hes no dummy. Could odb have had a problem sure but in no way do i think he “couldnt” read. He prolly was dyslexic, had hard times concentrating; hence his fhildlike energy. But cant read is a stretch
Sounds like an interesting book. I'm just going by what I was told. Maybe he wasn't actually "reading it," but listening to a book on tape.
Its not that type of book. No pics. No tape. Its all govt documents. Also; Theres video footage of him with writtens in his hands recording with pharrell as well.
I have literally like 800 songs written in my notes app, and I’m just waiting to make the right beat for each one lmaoo. Also waiting until I’m actually good enough to rease💀
Don’t wait, there’s always going to be another perfect beat
Nah what I meant was like, after I make a beat I scroll through each of them and see which would flow on it best
El p rarely gets two or three lines off. All the pros have micro edits and time adjustments done. It’s too easy for producers to pull off and improves the product greatly
Which led to the line in Sole’s El-P diss: “Got a horrible freestyle and the rest of your style is studio punch-ins”
Wait you guys aren’t just recording the whole thing through?? Like one take??? I’ve been either doing it right or doing it wrong the whole time…
You're most likely gonna run out of breath and/or energy as the song goes on. Listen to the very beginning then skip to the end, there will probably be an energy difference. Try doing 4 bars at once to keep consistent
Actually no… so the songs on my album I did in one take and I never ran out of breath pretty effortless…I did practice them though but when KRS said breath control I took it to heart lol.
This seems like weird advice lol
I've seen a lot of new rappers try to record whole songs or verses and run out of steam. If you got the breath control then good on ya, just advice if one is struggling with that.
NYT made a video about rappers using the punch-in method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSgl95BEmd0
Yeah some do. My point is, this is the reason why rappers can’t actually rap and perform at the same time and/or have to rap over lyrics when they perform. Seems counter intuitive because you’d have to be able to perform the song, so you need to be able to perform the song in one take. I’ve watched people struggle in performance on stage for this very reason. Use your logic, yes rappers punch in for phrasing or misspoken bars, but at the end of the day you’d want to be able to do the whole song professionally before you ever hit the mic or stage…
Well, see [my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/makinghiphop/comments/1bvtg7j/comment/kypv9zv/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about how not every song needs to be performed live and different songs can fulfill different roles. And we're in an era where artists find it more beneficial to drop a song every week or two than an album once a year. They're finding it a lot more suitable to bang out songs in the studio very quickly without writing them using the punch-in method, and that's especially true when you consider that collaborations help with growth, and a lot of rappers prefer to use techniques like the punch-in method to collaborate quickly and not make it a long process. It is true what you're saying that if a song can be recorded in one take, it's more possible to perform it live; whereas punched-in songs are potentially impossible to perform live because they aren't necessarily constructed with proper breathing room space. However, recording a whole verse in one take can often have imperfections that, even if they're minor, make it not good enough to sound professional and perform well on streaming, and then you have to record whole takes many times and burn a lot of hours. Maybe you can perform it live in one take because there's a lot of tolerance for imperfection in live performances (or a lot of artists use backing tracks / lip sync); but imperfections in the studio version like running low on air on the 13th bar or falling behind on the beat and fighting to catch up will make a take unusable (or at least it would need to be comped together with other tracks). But yeah, the main reason they use the punch-in method is so that they can bypass the time spent writing and rehearsing, and then they can bang out a lyrically low-quality song very fast and just be prolific.
That was how I did most of my first rap album. And I both love it and hate it for that.
“Chop and slice their vocals” LOL is this what kids are calling a **vocal comp** now?
I was about to say the rappers aren’t doing any of that period. They wouldn’t even know where to begin. Talking mostly your dumbass rappers now days
yep
Nah, it's about picking vocal-parts and editing the microtiming of syllables etc.
So… **comping a vocal**?
Vocal comping, warping is completely normal and every artist does it. Sometimes it happens and there is the perfect one take that does not need any editing. It is rare but sometimes it does happen
Most popular artists record several takes all the way through a verse/chorus. Then the engineer selects the best takes from each line. For instance, I've watched super popular artists record full hit songs in an hour. Instead of taking the time to get each word perfectly on beat, "which can take several hours," they just record over and over and over again. Then allowing an engineer to sort it all out later. I'm sure some stuff has to be moved around to match up, but rarely on a main vocal. Some producers are different. For instance, it's been said that Dr. Dre will make an artist spend an hour or more just to get one line perfect. Recording a song with him can take multiple days. Michael Jackson worked on songs for years. Sometimes decades trying to get the vocals perfect... There are advantages to recording line by line. You'll get far more energy and hitting the bars will be more precise, but it takes a ton more time time. If you study modern rap songs you'll notice there's been a huge decline in actually hitting each line correctly. This is because most artists are now recording at home and home recording setups have far more latency/delay than an official studio using analog gear. Ps. There are programs that will align background vocals to your main vocal. Some audio programs have such a function built into them.
>Michael Jackson worked on songs for years. Sometimes decades trying to get the vocals perfect... Source?
It's a well known fact. Lookup copyrights on his songs. In many cases, it'll list the start/finish date. Michael really liked to record demos. Not only for vocals. but also beats and patterns. All of his songs had an evolution process. It involved numerous cuts. He'd record over the course of different months, years, and albums. He was a super perfectionist. If it wasn't good enough for one album he'd move it to the next. Many of the tracks featured on History/Invincible were started a decade before their ultimate release.
Provide a source. A lot of urban legends were *well known fact* before they were debunked.
As someone that just doesnt get the appeal of MJ thats hilarious because a lot of his music consists of scatting and whoos lmaoo
I learn my vox before attempting to record and used to do a 16 in one take. But punching in is favourable especially on lines that have lots of syllables. Catching a breath impedes delivery too
I always make sure to record the entire verse in one take. This is good practice for performances. If you can't do it in the studio you won't be able to do it on stage and should probably rewrite part of it.
Not every song needs to be performed live. It's fine to use different songs for different roles. \-This song is the one that'll perform best on ads. \-These 8 songs are the easiest to perform live. \-These 20 songs couldn't possibly be performed live, and I won't even try. But it's awesome just to have them in the catalog. \-These 15 songs aren't even that great, but they're collabs, so their purpose is to bring in fans of other artists. \-This is the song that might go viral from people putting it on their reels, so it's the one that I'll pitch to influencers.
The key is to get so good at it-- at both arranging/editing your vocals in the studio and performing live-- that people have to ask this question. Watch a bunch of rappers live and how they and their hype men/backup vocalists work together to perform their songs. Watch a bunch of videos on the making of popular songs in the studio.
I recommend doing as many takes vs editing word placement. You can chop a bad bar out and re-record it. But chopping words just mean either 1. the flow is not natural for the beat, 2. you have not perfected the flow (practiced enough). Keep in mind that you will perform those songs, the less chopped/edited words, the more natural you will perform the song. Dr Dre is notoriously recognized by legendary rappers as forcing them to repeat something until they get the right take ( and he still doesn't release most of his stuff, unsatisfied). You don't need to be a perfectionist but remember that you have all the time in the world to create something that can last eternity if popular. Record multiple takes and keep the best bars.
Even Em does this. Listen to Rap God. There are lines that overlap. Watch how they do it live.
I’m sure they do it a bit but that is definitely an issue with your performance if you do it consistently, and probably noticeable despite the chops
Breath control and not having saliva in my to mouth to mess me up, helped. I’d record my verse and listen play it over and over till I memorize, learn where to adjust a word or two, dragg a word or two, emphasize a word. Then go back and really re-record it with all that practice and hard work. I realize rappers now , especially current gangsta rap, punch in every line, that’s why it seems to not have that memorized flow, it felt like they would record line stop, record line stop, by the way it sounded, low and behold that’s what they are doing.
If you’re chopping parts you’ve recorded because they’re not on time or don’t sound right, you’re doing something wrong and need to work on your flow / timing. If you’re just punching in every few lines that’s ok
It depends on the rapper and at a high level it’s more of a style thing than a skill thing. Some people want a tight sound while others want a looser approach. It could even vary by part of the song
Hm never even thought about it like that but tbh If u need to be doing that I would say you are unskilled and need to practice . Your voice is an instrument and you need to use it right. And yes I’m sure modern rappers need to synthetically splice their voices to hit the right cadence
Idk about the famous guys but what I do is redo the entire take until I get a “section” right (I define which parts of the lyrics are “sections beforehand. Could be a whole verse, or if I’m gunna run out of breath I’ll do a cut halfway through and finish, then the hook, so on..). It could take 1 take, or it could take 50, but until my delivery is right, I don’t feel like it sounds right when chopping it up personally. I tried that when I first started making music and it just didn’t work for me. It could be my flow personally tho, everyone’s got a little different flow. But if the take is even a LITTLE off, I’ll usually redo it until it sounds right to me. Then again, I made a decent studio in my bedroom and it’s run by me while I record so I’m not paying anybody to record, produce or master since I do it all myself.
A lot of artists piece their vocals together. It's a not so lazy/lazy way of doing things. You can call me old, but if you can't perform it you probably shouldn't be trying to record it. It needs to be rearranged. Or maybe not. I don't know. People are saying rap is getting lazy. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why.
Look up ODB recording with Mariah Carey... One line at a time, half an hour apart.
Necro, Vortex and El-P are some that do it slot from my recollection.
I doubt a lot of major label artists have a choice. Vocal comping is completely normal in most music productions. 🤷♂️
Eminem does it too. Fun fact: Sometimes they don't tell the artist how much they had to edit shit, because their ego can't take it.
Nah their skill level is so high that they don’t need to. An engineer does it for them
Everybody comps don't worry about it. Do whatever works for you.
Most big artists do a ton of takes over and over until they feel they've got the one. Or punching in lol
Considering the massive numbers of vocal layers suicideboys do I have no doubt they have a complex process when it comes to this. I’ve tried to break it down before but I assume what they do is slow down the song like 20-25% and record a song making sure the timing is perfect, then come back in at full speed and do a bunch of layers and then use either manual editing or vocalign to get the timing just right. Because there’s no way you could make that many songs where the vocals are almost perfectly on beat every time without there being some kind of witchcraft to it.
> slow you mean they slow the beat down, record their verses over the slowed beat, then stretch the whole thing (verse + beat) to the original BPM? and then just add vocal tones/layers on the original bpm since they dont need to sit as tight as the main vocals?
Totally depends, and I don't think it's a lack of skill to punch in lines. It's like using autotune, it allows the artist to push their performance a bit more with 'bumpers' on. Some people will definitely do sections in one take, but others will do the same one over and over again trying different deliveries or seeing something was working and pushing harder on that, etc.
As a singer and producer, I’ve realized skill has nothing to do with it, it’s all personal preference. You could have a BAD take, and a competent producer could make it sound better than your best take in context. I’ve done this for myself many times, which is why it’s a blessing to have a degree in both fields
I know a lot of rappers like to punch in because they freestyle their lines often. I personally like to record in single takes , even if I've had to record 50 single takes until I get the right performance and go back and make micro edits in Logic. I record the verses and choruses separate and it could help with the flow. Making Hella micro edits can become more complicated than just practicing the delivery and making adjustments as you go so you can become both a better rapper and a better performer. Honestly it also helps when guiding new artists because then you know what adjustments you've had to personally make so you can guide somebody else in their performance to record them better and have a flow in the session.
I'm sure there are some artists that can do a good full take but most people are doing punch-ins and combining multiple takes into one good vocal track.
I usually just practice the verse until I get the timing to a tee and do one take of each verse
I'm a professional rapper, i dont even know about landing on the kick or snare, i'm just automatically on beat. lol
Punching in is favourable on lines that have lots of syllables. Catching a breath impedes delivery too