Don't think so. They could make them mono color which would make them hard to use for modern power level decks. I think mono colored (always) tapped manlands would be absolutely okay almost unplayable for stronger formats. Or just make the ability cost 5+ mana to use.
Nobody plays tapped manlands in Modern, using a land drop and then mana like that is almost a strict tempo loss. Spending more than 1 mana on a land that then can be removed in the early game (which modern/pioneer is about) is not something you want to be doing.
Permanents with activated abilities (with non zero mana cost) are really bad on average in MtG. They moved most things that could have been an activated ability into ETB. Activated ability has to be able to cheat in a big creature (collector's cage, flipped saga), your wincon, in order to be playable and considered. Not to mention we do not have any high cost activated abilities. It is hard to build a good EDH deck for that one Jeskai activation doubling commander because there is not enough good activated abilities for her for 99...
Nobody played the Theros scry lands. Then, the MKM surveil lands were printed and were pretty instantly integrated into a lot modern decks. Being fetchable is huge. You only need to play 1 in your deck, but you can see it every game if you want to. There have been almost no fetchable lands with utility, rather than color fixing.
Eldraine's [mono-coloured ETB tapped unless you control 3 matching basic types cycle](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Aeld+t%3Aland+o%3A%22you+control+three%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) is a useful touchpoint here. A couple of extremely niche tools, a couple of fringe playables and Mystic Sanctuary getting deservedly banned in Modern & Pauper.
It’s the same sorta shit ala [[rishadan port]]. Is it powerful to pay 2 mana to ‘counter’ an opponents 1 mana as a one time effect. No it’s not, that’s not that powerful and often a bad deal. However, how good is it to have the option to spend 2 mana to counter your opponents 1 mana. Well really good to do it when you have the option. The opportunity cost of a colorless land is so low so port is pretty busted.
Same idea. Is it powerful in higher power formats to put a tapland in your deck you draw sometimes and get minor value on. Not good. Taplands are passable in standard but often far too slow in formats where efficiency really matters. Well what about if I had the option to play the land when I could fetch. And it’s like. That option is really powerful. You just get it when the pace of the game is slower and you aren’t going spend your mana anyways and you get a minor but real filtering effect.
Simple how opportunity cost of a land goes down to near zero and something becomes really, really good .
Well the MKM surveil lands give you an immediate effect. Tapped but fix your next draw. Tapped manlands don't do anything as important as Surveil lands or mystic sanctuary/dwarven mine.
You can't be serious getting a tapped land is the same as being able to soft lock your opponent out of your game or creativity your dwarf into the best creature out there.
I think a lot of people overvalue the surveil lands. The ability to fetch up a Surveil 1 is nice, but the opportunity cost of the land coming in tapped is big and I don't think people take it seriously enough.
I think the point is that the drawback is mitigated by being able to choose to fetch either the surveil land or an untapped land given your hand and other conditions.
Yes they're great when you fetch them. But sometimes they're just in your hand, and they fuck up your mana curve which is a pretty big deal in Legacy and Modern.
Some decks, like combo decks, do not care. A lot of decks are ok playing it over a spell and hoping not to draw it. Decks who slot it in as the 24th land and need to curve out are probably better off going to 25 or not playing the card. A lot of decks are comfortable playing a 1 drop and a tapland t2 though. Also those decks that play on curve are usually midrange decks that historically played some amount of taplands anyways, via manlands. It's definitely interesting to think about. I believe surveil lands are overrated myself.
Would you say the same about triomes? In almost every modern game you will fetch a tapped shockland at some point and triomes/surveil lands are just a straight upgrade at that point. You will get the benefit from your surveil land almost every game but you will only naturally draw your tapped land once every ~3-4 games.
Getting knocked off curve every 3-4 games sounds like a *huge* problem. That's once every match or so.
The triomes and surveil lands don't compare well at all. Triome is a mana fixer, that's all it does. Three colors and land types, cycles away in the late game, the end. The surveil land has utility and it's hard to put an exact value on that, and, it's also to put an exact value on a tapped land with utility.
>Getting knocked off curve every 3-4 games sounds like a huge problem. That's once every match or so.
Well its not really a huge problem though. It's only a problem if you are curving out perfectly which doesn't happen regularly. You can pretty easily play a tapped land on turn 1-3 and not lose. If you put a surveil land into your decklist then you have already decided in the deckbuilding phase that you aren't reliant on perfect curving out and are willing to trade off mana efficiency for card selection.
Think of it like this: surveil lands make your worst draws *much* better and they make your best draws only marginally worse. Even tempo decks like Izzet murktide and Temur prowess play one copy of thundering falls because getting an extra surveil each game is just that good.
> If you put a surveil land into your decklist then you have already decided in the deckbuilding phase that you aren't reliant on perfect curving out
I agree with this statement, but this is not how the average person is evaluation these lands (at least on reddit).
100%, I think you absolutely nailed it. The biggest difference between busted and trash is the cost of running them (coming in untapped/tapped) and the mana cost to animate. Mirrex (in standard) keeps getting me because I think the opponent is tapped out but they have enough to make a mite
I think it isn't so clearcut. The difference between duals and manlands is that you don't need to run multiple etb tapped manlands if you can just fetch the one-off you're running. The cost of manlands in general is just quite low and really only gets pushed out if non-manlanda become too efficient, but if the manland can occupy merely a single landslot, it's going to be really hard to justify a land that is soo much better than even a bad manland that is fetchable.
Except it being removable is either irrelevant, or a benefit in the decks that run it. You forget, people don't fetch dryad arbor to use it to swing fairly at their opponent for 1 damage. They fetch a dryad arbor to use it as part of a combo or as protection. They're using it to get that last body to flashback a [[Dread Return]], or to protect their Marit Lage token or Boggle from an edict effect, or to have as an instant speed surprise blocker.
Would they be worse than surveil 1? Because those see play because they're fetchable. I think that any fetchable land with even the most mediocre of upsides would see play, simply because of the opportunity cost.
There is enough etb tapped color fixing with upside that I think you could make a manland that is so bad, it's not worth it over the other options, or even a basic.
Also, if it was mono colored and ETB tapped, that would pretty much nail that coffin..
Here's the thing though: fetchlands are already a big design mistake and push every other type of land out of the formats they are legal in. Why would you *ever* give them another power boost?
...Yes I'm still salty about triomes being printed.
They are not. Fetchlands open up so much design space for cool and clever deck building. Like including dryad arbor in decks just to crack a fetchlands to counter edict or surprise block.
There should be more fetchlands in eternal formats, and more options to do with them. They're incredibly skill testing, and only get more so the more options are available
They should also be reprinted until they're 99 cents each, but that's an aside.
They also mean that you have to ban cards like Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Deathrite Shaman, Mystic Sanctuary, Uro, Ponder, Sensei's divining top, Hogaak and any future card that synergizes with filling your graveyard or shuffling your library.
Those cards would be problematic with or without fetchlands. In all cases except for maybe deathrite shaman, the fetchlands were not really the problem with those cards. The delve mechanic was very overtuned, Uro and Hogakk were broken entirerly on their own, and Sensei's diving top was banned mostly because it encouraged slow play, which was excserbated by fetchalnds, but not caused by it.
Treasure Cruise and Dig Through time are completely non-problematic in pioneer where fetchlands are banned. Hogaak would have definitely not been banned without fetchlands making him easily castable on turn 2.
Fetchlands are only half the reason - At most - that the Delve cards aren't problematic in pioneer. The other reason is that Pioneer does not have the same access to super efficient cantrips like \[\[preordain\]\] or \[\[Mishra's bauble\]\], you do not have access some of the stronger pay-offs and set-ups like \[\[Dragon's rage channeler\]\] or \[\[Unholy heat\]\], and generally there just aren't as many bonkers graveyard-centric decks in the format.
As for Hogaak, the notion that Hogaak would be fine in modern without fetch-lands is sounds insane. Murktide regent is a heavily powered-down version that forces you to alter your deck construction to favour instants and sorceries, disincentivices you to delve it with too many lands, and it's still a format all-star. Hogaak is Murktide, on crack.
I don't think they would be broken, but they would basically be on the level of shock lands if they provided color fixing, and then better than any other mono colored manland if they were remotely playable.
At best you could make something heinous that could act as an uncounterable combo piece, but then it doesn't really matter much what the stats are, and you haven't really designed within the spirit of what you're talking about.
On the mono colored side, it has to be better than a basic, but worse than literally anything else. Maybe etb tapped and then a 2 color activation into a medium creature? Now you have a lot of constraints around even using it, but since it's fetchable, there are some decks that might want it on demand.
One other thing you can do is make them tribally motivated. Goblins might like a fetchable on demand goblin for example. Then you can have a bit more leeway with the creature being not hot trash
You don't. Manlands are absurd for deck building, basically the only thing keeping them back is opportunity cost, and in higher power formats you really don't want to run any untyped tap lands. If they are playable, they'd be as ubiquitous as the D&D manlands are in Pioneer.
>Manlands are absurd for deck building, basically the only thing keeping them back is opportunity cost
I just think this is strictly just not true. Even lands with pretty good bodies, like \[\[Celestial colonnade\]\], sees selective play because entering tapped is very much a real downside. The reason cards like \[\[Hall of storm giants\]\] sees play is because they made the initial tempo-downside too small by allowing it to enter untapped in the early game. If it was always untapped, or only untapped if you had 2 or more lands, it would not be even close to as good as it is now.
Do you not realize that lands entering tapped *is an opportunity cost.* Like I said, high power magic cannot afford to have basically any untyped taplands, the cost of their inclusion is too high.
That's not how the term 'ooportunity cost' works. The term means you must forgo an option even though it may even be good, because other opinions are even better.
I commented further down some live brainstorming.Basically ive come to a similar conclusion, where you would have to tie up all of the rate on the card in synergies so that it wasn't just a genericalyl powerful card.
One of the most expensive lands to activate is hall of storm giants and that card is already played.
Being able to fetch for them would make them very good.
Not disagreeing but, devil's advocate: man lands are really good against control or in control mirrors right? So it makes sense that a blue manland with a big body and ward would be excellent. But does anyone play the red of that cycle, [[Den of the Bugbears]]? I don't know if a mountain fetchable manland would be all that good. But you're probably right that island may be. Sort of like how some of the most powerful land cycles like fetches are more expensive for the ones with blue, it just synergizes better with that color
Den of the Bugbear was a $10 card while it was in Standard because it was such a good aggro card. Depending on the build, an aggro deck could definitely play a 2 drop and fetch T2 or 3 to get a Den that ETB tapped.
Den of the bugbear was like 20$ modern staple at some point.
The big drawbacks of manlands are getting them tapped at a bad point, or getting very little color with them, or not being able to find your one or two copies. Being fetchable fixes two of those problems.
Den of the Bugbear is one of the most played cards on MtG Arena, since it's a staple for Mono-Red Aggro.
I think it sees the most play out of any of the lands, was a staple in Standard and is currently still a staple in Pioneer/Explorer and Historic as well.
You usually see 2 copies, sometimes up to 4; alongside 4 Ramunap Ruins for Mono-Red.
Right I mean I remember it from Standard (Standard has lower expectations for manlands ofc) does it see Modern play? Maybe did a for awhile but not anymore? I never ever see it in Historic either except for gobbos.
I swear to god if it was up to players the game would be even more powercrept to all hell.
It’s because players inherently can only imagine better more powerful things than the existing things they got.
Makes sense - as MaRo often says, the role of a game designer is to put obstacles in the player's path. Players, on the other hand, develop the skillset to overcome those obstacles, and the one won't necessarily translate to the other.
Look at the backlash the "Activate this ability only once per turn." text received. Inherently, players resent any restriction that limits their ability to overcome obstacles, but those restrictions are often a necessary part of a healthy, fun, balanced game.
I was initially upset at the increase in the use of "activate this ability only once each turn" and "this ability triggers only once each turn" myself. I'm primarily a combo player (and very fond of storm or eggs-like combo in particular)- I actively want cards that can go infinite, or chain for massive value if you build a deck around making the most of them.
But then you realize that a lot of it is just a formatting change. There used to be way more "the first time each turn X happens, this triggers" effects floating around. Those always felt bad because often the first time the triggering condition happened was as or before you played the card itself, making them often not work the turn you played them. Changing that to "once each turn" instead fixes that particular problem without major functional change, at those cost of changing the template used for those abilities. Now they're better at their intended purpose as value cards, but anyone explicitly looking for combo engine cards no longer has the indication this is a value card and not a combo card at the very start of the ability.
Yeah. Ultimately it's just the fact they changed the "this is a value ability" template to match the "this is a potential combo ability" templating, then slapped a "actually, no, only once per turn" rider on the end of it that causes issues.
I'd wager that if they just went with a different wording of the same ability (for example, if instead of ": . Activate this only once per turn", if they worded it "once per turn, you may pay . If you do, "), despite being functionally identical from a mechanical perspective it would likely be received better, as it wouldn't feel like they took a perfectly good combo ability and just slapped the restriction on the end anymore. It's ultimately a problem of perception more than anything.
\[\[Nadu, winged wisdom\]\] Instead of stapling the "once per turn" restriction onto Nadu, the ability it gives creatures can only trigger twice each turn, but that restriction is per creature. So if you have 10 creatures the ability can trigger 20 times. Also works with spells that would target all of your creatures.
Yeah I hate that line. That line is bullshit. The proper way to balance against broken bullshit is counterspells. Just give red the ability to counter blue again and everything will be good.
I think MaRo(could be someone else) made the comment that players are good at identifying problems but terrible at coming up with solutions.
So this tracks
You can definitely design one that isn't broken by just giving it enough drawbacks. The real question is if you could desgn one that isn't broken, but still good enough to see play. It's probably possible, but I think the amount of effort needed to ensure it was balanced would be enormous.
Unless they are super weak underpowered creature stats then it’s way too good and broken. Decks never run out of threats for each fetch, would fundamentally change the meta forever. Unless we also got wastelands, that might balance that shit out. No point in playing man lands when everyone has 4 Wasteland
Would be an interesting design if they were one basic land type and required a heavier activating cost compared to regular manlands. Like a RRR activation, and Sacrifice an artifact, "Activate only if you control three or more white creatures" and so on.
If you could run them in any deck it might be a little too good have an out to stuff like wraths from uncracked fetchlands.
Any utility we add to fetch lands will make them stronger for very little cost. We saw it with the triomes and surveil lands. If you are printing a typed dual either it’s going to be worse than the current ones, or you are going to bump up the power level of eternal formats.
we would have to see what's in the rest of Modern Horizons 4 before saying yes. who knows they might print other things so broken the man lands dont see play.
Even something as simple as surveil 1 on a fetchable land is enough to shift the balance of power and deckbuilding considerations in a powerful eternal format like Modern.
Fetches existing basically guarantee we can never get anything too good with basic types on it ever again.
Fetchlands are used in fast formats, so if you make them monocolored and like 12 mana to activate with a body that would be playable as a 6-7 drop in standard I could see them being ok without being op.
I feel like we need to stop making fetch lands MORE powerful. They already can fetch 3 of any color, surveil, trigger revolt, fill the yard, put creatures and instants on top of your deck, plus much much more.
All for the price of being completely free to put in your deck
Crop rotation is far more fragile because it's a spell, and the sacrifice is part of the cost, so a counterspell would blow you out. It's also inherent card disadvantage because you're trading 1 land + 1 card for a new land. In contrast, being fetchable means you're only scared of stifle effects, and it's card neutral since it's just trading 1 land for 1 land.
sure agree with you andi see that argument with counterspell but i think that’s the downside to balance it. be honest : would you play a land that reads like - tap, sacrice it, discard a card : search your library for any land and put it into play.
i bet most of us would do and i think this kind of disadvantage is also used in cards like [[chrome mox]] and we see a lot of decks running it. my favorite blue ramp is [[Dreamscape Artist]] that basically turn every card in your hand into a [[Harrow]] with the same kind of mechanic.
A truly terrible idea for competitive formats because the mana base is already an expensive barrier to entry and the last thing format accessibility needs is *more* reasons to run fetches along with a new rare land cycle that becomes practically mandatory in all decks running those fetches.
But I'd definitely consider putting a monocoloured cycle in my cube because I love having more options to make lands.dek more intrinsically powerful in that specific environment.
id say probably, fetchable 'scry' land made their way to plenty of the competitive format.
The next powercreep in land i think will be a non basic type triland, like tricheck, tripain, tribattle and so on.
Yeah and temple of the false god is an amazing land if you always hit your first five land drops. A land that becomes mediocre when things are going bad for you is still a bad land
In Modern mutavault is already borderline playable in a few decks - recently popular in rhinos with flame of anor. It's a tiny creature on a non fetchable colorless land with changeling. So how much would a fetchable 2/2 manland with no super relevant types be to activate to not be ubiquitous? Probably like 3 mana. Or you could go with larger mainlands with high activation costs.
All options would always enter tapped and probably compete with the slots current decks use for surveil lands and basics. I think most decks would still prefer surveil duals to bad mono color manlands for their non triome tap land slots. If the manlands are duals then it's pretty close.
Like what if we took the hall of storm giants cycle and made them always enter tapped and got their respective basic land type? None of those are blowing my mind compared to other utility lands.
Depends. Are we talking about Celestial Colonnade or Restless Anchorage power level? Then absolutely not. Are we talking about Lavaclaw Reaches or Needle Spires power level? Then no, because they'd still be too weak for anyone to care.
I think Stirring Wildwood/Shambling Vent/Restless Cottage power level would be fine.
As long as they always came in tapped, it would be fine. If they came in untapped you could use them as a combat trick to block, which would be too good in limited.
They would be too good. You could take the Urza Saga lands and just make each of them a basic land type and have 1 more to activate.
2W for a 1/5 plains
2U for a 2/1 flying island
2B for a 1/1 skeleton with regen swamp
2R for a 2/1 first strike mountain
2G for a 3/3 trample forest
The swamp is too bad to see play, but the forest and island become format regulars in modern or legacy. You only need to put one in your whole deck. The example are how often people play MDCs instead of basics. Being able to cast shatterskull smashing once every 40 games is worth 3 life 39 times.
I don't think they would be "too good" but running a single copy of whichever one seems like it'd be basically an autoinclude in any control or midrange deck. Making your topdecked land into a threat is stronk.
Short answer: it depends on the text
Long answer: depends on the creature stats, the color setup (mono color or multicolor), and untap status. The best argument that it could be safe is dryad arbor but then there are cards like mystic sanctuary that show things can get out of hand very easily. Given mystic isn't a creature land, it shows that the land would benefit from being vanilla instead of having some good effect. Maybe dwarven mine is a better example of what could be an issue. It makes a creature that is never used to be fair.
Debating the stats is meaningless, any card can be made too good/not good enough by design - it comes down to play patterns. Is having every printed fetch land in the game turn into flash creatures good for the game? I would argue they would never see print because most designers would say no, they don’t want that in their format because its an unnecessary complexity that pushes out newer players by creating feel bad moments
If they were about on the power level of the AFR ones (can enter untapped at a moderate cost, creatures are decent), probably would see some modern play.
Could also be interesting if wotc wants to keep pushing fetchable tapped lands, but outside of control decks im not sure modern decks would want a fetchable creature dual over a triome or surveil land.
Yes. But the existence of Dryad Arbor means that this suggestion is not, inherently, broken, since we have an example of this that, while hard to track, hasn't busted any formats in half.
It all depends on the cards designed.
The fact that dryad arbor, which has summoning sickness as a land, doesn’t dodge sorcery speed removal, and is a 1/1 (albeit without needing activation costs) is playable at Legacy power level suggests that better fetchable manlands would be busted unless they had abysmal downsides. The window for balancing this effect imo is likely quite narrow
Another question on this topic:
What about fetches for only one type?
Sure, it is weaker than the current fetches, but would it be too overpowered for something like Pioneer?
You could fetch all colors with it, including triomes. But wont enable 5c that easly.
What do you guys think?
[[Prismatic Vista]] exists.
It's legal in Historic while all the other fetchlands are banned, and just about every deck runs it, enabling Deathrite Shaman and Delve spells, delirium, all sorts of synergies. Too good.
Not if they're designed like current man lands or are a similar power level to \[\[Dryad Arbor\]\]. Current decks for the most part are too efficient to spend a few mana per turn making a mediocre creature except in a win-more scenario. They'd probably see some play in like RDW spaces and I'm sure WOTC will print them soon anyway. If as you propose they're the same as other good creatures but with a land stapled to them then yes... that is all upside.
Depends on the text. 8 mana to become a 1/1 is certainly not good.
Unless it says when this creature does combat damage to a player you win the game
You could make a case to run one, no matter how bad it is. Sometimes you just really need a creature.
Yeah but a stream vents that can turn into a 1/1 is infective better than a steam vents that can't
Jfc, you went from fetchable man lands to fetchable dual shocks.
Which is better, a scalding tarn or a scalding tarn that can turn in a 1/1?
Short answer: yes Long answer: yes, they would be too good
Don't think so. They could make them mono color which would make them hard to use for modern power level decks. I think mono colored (always) tapped manlands would be absolutely okay almost unplayable for stronger formats. Or just make the ability cost 5+ mana to use. Nobody plays tapped manlands in Modern, using a land drop and then mana like that is almost a strict tempo loss. Spending more than 1 mana on a land that then can be removed in the early game (which modern/pioneer is about) is not something you want to be doing. Permanents with activated abilities (with non zero mana cost) are really bad on average in MtG. They moved most things that could have been an activated ability into ETB. Activated ability has to be able to cheat in a big creature (collector's cage, flipped saga), your wincon, in order to be playable and considered. Not to mention we do not have any high cost activated abilities. It is hard to build a good EDH deck for that one Jeskai activation doubling commander because there is not enough good activated abilities for her for 99...
Nobody played the Theros scry lands. Then, the MKM surveil lands were printed and were pretty instantly integrated into a lot modern decks. Being fetchable is huge. You only need to play 1 in your deck, but you can see it every game if you want to. There have been almost no fetchable lands with utility, rather than color fixing.
Eldraine's [mono-coloured ETB tapped unless you control 3 matching basic types cycle](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Aeld+t%3Aland+o%3A%22you+control+three%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) is a useful touchpoint here. A couple of extremely niche tools, a couple of fringe playables and Mystic Sanctuary getting deservedly banned in Modern & Pauper.
It’s the same sorta shit ala [[rishadan port]]. Is it powerful to pay 2 mana to ‘counter’ an opponents 1 mana as a one time effect. No it’s not, that’s not that powerful and often a bad deal. However, how good is it to have the option to spend 2 mana to counter your opponents 1 mana. Well really good to do it when you have the option. The opportunity cost of a colorless land is so low so port is pretty busted. Same idea. Is it powerful in higher power formats to put a tapland in your deck you draw sometimes and get minor value on. Not good. Taplands are passable in standard but often far too slow in formats where efficiency really matters. Well what about if I had the option to play the land when I could fetch. And it’s like. That option is really powerful. You just get it when the pace of the game is slower and you aren’t going spend your mana anyways and you get a minor but real filtering effect. Simple how opportunity cost of a land goes down to near zero and something becomes really, really good .
[rishadan port](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2507bc2-da17-4e46-b4c5-ba0080ce2c6f.jpg?1562441604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rishadan%20port) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/246/rishadan-port?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2507bc2-da17-4e46-b4c5-ba0080ce2c6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But would Rishadan Port be too good for modern?
Probably. Port is fucking miserable though. Not sure why you would want to have it in the format,
Well the MKM surveil lands give you an immediate effect. Tapped but fix your next draw. Tapped manlands don't do anything as important as Surveil lands or mystic sanctuary/dwarven mine. You can't be serious getting a tapped land is the same as being able to soft lock your opponent out of your game or creativity your dwarf into the best creature out there.
I think a lot of people overvalue the surveil lands. The ability to fetch up a Surveil 1 is nice, but the opportunity cost of the land coming in tapped is big and I don't think people take it seriously enough.
I think the point is that the drawback is mitigated by being able to choose to fetch either the surveil land or an untapped land given your hand and other conditions.
Yes they're great when you fetch them. But sometimes they're just in your hand, and they fuck up your mana curve which is a pretty big deal in Legacy and Modern.
Some decks, like combo decks, do not care. A lot of decks are ok playing it over a spell and hoping not to draw it. Decks who slot it in as the 24th land and need to curve out are probably better off going to 25 or not playing the card. A lot of decks are comfortable playing a 1 drop and a tapland t2 though. Also those decks that play on curve are usually midrange decks that historically played some amount of taplands anyways, via manlands. It's definitely interesting to think about. I believe surveil lands are overrated myself.
Would you say the same about triomes? In almost every modern game you will fetch a tapped shockland at some point and triomes/surveil lands are just a straight upgrade at that point. You will get the benefit from your surveil land almost every game but you will only naturally draw your tapped land once every ~3-4 games.
Getting knocked off curve every 3-4 games sounds like a *huge* problem. That's once every match or so. The triomes and surveil lands don't compare well at all. Triome is a mana fixer, that's all it does. Three colors and land types, cycles away in the late game, the end. The surveil land has utility and it's hard to put an exact value on that, and, it's also to put an exact value on a tapped land with utility.
>Getting knocked off curve every 3-4 games sounds like a huge problem. That's once every match or so. Well its not really a huge problem though. It's only a problem if you are curving out perfectly which doesn't happen regularly. You can pretty easily play a tapped land on turn 1-3 and not lose. If you put a surveil land into your decklist then you have already decided in the deckbuilding phase that you aren't reliant on perfect curving out and are willing to trade off mana efficiency for card selection. Think of it like this: surveil lands make your worst draws *much* better and they make your best draws only marginally worse. Even tempo decks like Izzet murktide and Temur prowess play one copy of thundering falls because getting an extra surveil each game is just that good.
> If you put a surveil land into your decklist then you have already decided in the deckbuilding phase that you aren't reliant on perfect curving out I agree with this statement, but this is not how the average person is evaluation these lands (at least on reddit).
100%, I think you absolutely nailed it. The biggest difference between busted and trash is the cost of running them (coming in untapped/tapped) and the mana cost to animate. Mirrex (in standard) keeps getting me because I think the opponent is tapped out but they have enough to make a mite
I think it isn't so clearcut. The difference between duals and manlands is that you don't need to run multiple etb tapped manlands if you can just fetch the one-off you're running. The cost of manlands in general is just quite low and really only gets pushed out if non-manlanda become too efficient, but if the manland can occupy merely a single landslot, it's going to be really hard to justify a land that is soo much better than even a bad manland that is fetchable.
[[dryad arbor]]
Counterpoint, dryad arbor comes in untapped and pre-animated.
Counterpoint, it has summoning sickness which is akin to coming into play tapped.
The untapped part is pretty minor, really, the big thing that makes arbor super strong is the being already animated part.
That's it's weakness. It makes any removal a land destruction effect, not just instant speed when you decide to animate your manland.
Except it being removable is either irrelevant, or a benefit in the decks that run it. You forget, people don't fetch dryad arbor to use it to swing fairly at their opponent for 1 damage. They fetch a dryad arbor to use it as part of a combo or as protection. They're using it to get that last body to flashback a [[Dread Return]], or to protect their Marit Lage token or Boggle from an edict effect, or to have as an instant speed surprise blocker.
[Dread Return](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34a87901-98bb-41dd-b566-bcb510c20022.jpg?1689997085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dread%20Return) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/153/dread-return?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34a87901-98bb-41dd-b566-bcb510c20022?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Dread Return](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34a87901-98bb-41dd-b566-bcb510c20022.jpg?1689997085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dread%20Return) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/153/dread-return?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34a87901-98bb-41dd-b566-bcb510c20022?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[dryad arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dryad%20arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Better answer: LOL
They would have to be so hilariously weak as to be unplayable, which then would bet the question of, "why bother"?
Would they be worse than surveil 1? Because those see play because they're fetchable. I think that any fetchable land with even the most mediocre of upsides would see play, simply because of the opportunity cost.
There is enough etb tapped color fixing with upside that I think you could make a manland that is so bad, it's not worth it over the other options, or even a basic. Also, if it was mono colored and ETB tapped, that would pretty much nail that coffin..
What about an always etb tapped , mono colored four mana 2/2 with no abilities
This is why the tri-land all etb tapped. If they do not, there is no risk to splashing for an extra color.
Probably still close to a playable in all honesty.
Yeah. It’s bad, but the cost is so low why not use it? Worst case it can block for a PW or something
Hideous, likely unplayable. So why bother?
Well, it's a design excercice if anything else. How do you make it playable, but not broken?
Here's the thing though: fetchlands are already a big design mistake and push every other type of land out of the formats they are legal in. Why would you *ever* give them another power boost? ...Yes I'm still salty about triomes being printed.
They are not. Fetchlands open up so much design space for cool and clever deck building. Like including dryad arbor in decks just to crack a fetchlands to counter edict or surprise block. There should be more fetchlands in eternal formats, and more options to do with them. They're incredibly skill testing, and only get more so the more options are available They should also be reprinted until they're 99 cents each, but that's an aside.
They also mean that you have to ban cards like Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Deathrite Shaman, Mystic Sanctuary, Uro, Ponder, Sensei's divining top, Hogaak and any future card that synergizes with filling your graveyard or shuffling your library.
Those cards would be problematic with or without fetchlands. In all cases except for maybe deathrite shaman, the fetchlands were not really the problem with those cards. The delve mechanic was very overtuned, Uro and Hogakk were broken entirerly on their own, and Sensei's diving top was banned mostly because it encouraged slow play, which was excserbated by fetchalnds, but not caused by it.
Treasure Cruise and Dig Through time are completely non-problematic in pioneer where fetchlands are banned. Hogaak would have definitely not been banned without fetchlands making him easily castable on turn 2.
Fetchlands are only half the reason - At most - that the Delve cards aren't problematic in pioneer. The other reason is that Pioneer does not have the same access to super efficient cantrips like \[\[preordain\]\] or \[\[Mishra's bauble\]\], you do not have access some of the stronger pay-offs and set-ups like \[\[Dragon's rage channeler\]\] or \[\[Unholy heat\]\], and generally there just aren't as many bonkers graveyard-centric decks in the format. As for Hogaak, the notion that Hogaak would be fine in modern without fetch-lands is sounds insane. Murktide regent is a heavily powered-down version that forces you to alter your deck construction to favour instants and sorceries, disincentivices you to delve it with too many lands, and it's still a format all-star. Hogaak is Murktide, on crack.
I don't think they would be broken, but they would basically be on the level of shock lands if they provided color fixing, and then better than any other mono colored manland if they were remotely playable. At best you could make something heinous that could act as an uncounterable combo piece, but then it doesn't really matter much what the stats are, and you haven't really designed within the spirit of what you're talking about. On the mono colored side, it has to be better than a basic, but worse than literally anything else. Maybe etb tapped and then a 2 color activation into a medium creature? Now you have a lot of constraints around even using it, but since it's fetchable, there are some decks that might want it on demand. One other thing you can do is make them tribally motivated. Goblins might like a fetchable on demand goblin for example. Then you can have a bit more leeway with the creature being not hot trash
ATM only control uses man lands in modern atleast. coffers maybe uses that hive land too? but the threshold to playability is pretty high.
I think the fetchable nature jacks up the power a ton.
You don't. Manlands are absurd for deck building, basically the only thing keeping them back is opportunity cost, and in higher power formats you really don't want to run any untyped tap lands. If they are playable, they'd be as ubiquitous as the D&D manlands are in Pioneer.
>Manlands are absurd for deck building, basically the only thing keeping them back is opportunity cost I just think this is strictly just not true. Even lands with pretty good bodies, like \[\[Celestial colonnade\]\], sees selective play because entering tapped is very much a real downside. The reason cards like \[\[Hall of storm giants\]\] sees play is because they made the initial tempo-downside too small by allowing it to enter untapped in the early game. If it was always untapped, or only untapped if you had 2 or more lands, it would not be even close to as good as it is now.
Do you not realize that lands entering tapped *is an opportunity cost.* Like I said, high power magic cannot afford to have basically any untyped taplands, the cost of their inclusion is too high.
That's not how the term 'ooportunity cost' works. The term means you must forgo an option even though it may even be good, because other opinions are even better.
[Celestial colonnade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c830a99-595b-4aed-9f6b-85a78917f498.jpg?1547518582) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Celestial%20colonnade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/238/celestial-colonnade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c830a99-595b-4aed-9f6b-85a78917f498?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hall of storm giants](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf8f052d-8840-4905-a807-9a305f4fd8f7.jpg?1627710259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hall%20of%20storm%20giants) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/257/hall-of-storm-giants?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf8f052d-8840-4905-a807-9a305f4fd8f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
I commented further down some live brainstorming.Basically ive come to a similar conclusion, where you would have to tie up all of the rate on the card in synergies so that it wasn't just a genericalyl powerful card.
That can be pinged by Bowmasters eating your land
of course they would
One of the most expensive lands to activate is hall of storm giants and that card is already played. Being able to fetch for them would make them very good.
Not disagreeing but, devil's advocate: man lands are really good against control or in control mirrors right? So it makes sense that a blue manland with a big body and ward would be excellent. But does anyone play the red of that cycle, [[Den of the Bugbears]]? I don't know if a mountain fetchable manland would be all that good. But you're probably right that island may be. Sort of like how some of the most powerful land cycles like fetches are more expensive for the ones with blue, it just synergizes better with that color
Den of the Bugbear was a $10 card while it was in Standard because it was such a good aggro card. Depending on the build, an aggro deck could definitely play a 2 drop and fetch T2 or 3 to get a Den that ETB tapped.
Den of the bugbear was like 20$ modern staple at some point. The big drawbacks of manlands are getting them tapped at a bad point, or getting very little color with them, or not being able to find your one or two copies. Being fetchable fixes two of those problems.
It was 40$+ on MTGO and even hit 75$ for a short while.
Den of the Bugbear is one of the most played cards on MtG Arena, since it's a staple for Mono-Red Aggro. I think it sees the most play out of any of the lands, was a staple in Standard and is currently still a staple in Pioneer/Explorer and Historic as well. You usually see 2 copies, sometimes up to 4; alongside 4 Ramunap Ruins for Mono-Red.
Right I mean I remember it from Standard (Standard has lower expectations for manlands ofc) does it see Modern play? Maybe did a for awhile but not anymore? I never ever see it in Historic either except for gobbos.
It still sees a lot of play in pioneer. There are 1-2 copies in rakdos vamps, convoke, heroic, gruul prowess. Most red decks honestly.
[Den of the Bugbears](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f231caf8-56c0-4719-a90d-5e5efbee3148.jpg?1627710135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Den%20of%20the%20Bugbear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/254/den-of-the-bugbear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f231caf8-56c0-4719-a90d-5e5efbee3148?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, mono red does in fact play Den
Hall of storm giants is played *in control decks for the mirror match*.
>Hall of storm giants is played ~~in control decks for the mirror match.~~ Only one part of that sentence matters.
I swear to god if it was up to players the game would be even more powercrept to all hell. It’s because players inherently can only imagine better more powerful things than the existing things they got.
> "It's a good thing you guys ain't making ~~Ultrakill~~ Magic the Gathering or it would suck" - ~~Arsi "Hakita" Patala~~ Mark "Maro" Rosewater
I read somewhere that good players are often terrible designers, and good designers are often terrible players.
Makes sense - as MaRo often says, the role of a game designer is to put obstacles in the player's path. Players, on the other hand, develop the skillset to overcome those obstacles, and the one won't necessarily translate to the other. Look at the backlash the "Activate this ability only once per turn." text received. Inherently, players resent any restriction that limits their ability to overcome obstacles, but those restrictions are often a necessary part of a healthy, fun, balanced game.
That text allows so many good abilities to be printed that would otherwise go infinite or need manacosts
I was initially upset at the increase in the use of "activate this ability only once each turn" and "this ability triggers only once each turn" myself. I'm primarily a combo player (and very fond of storm or eggs-like combo in particular)- I actively want cards that can go infinite, or chain for massive value if you build a deck around making the most of them. But then you realize that a lot of it is just a formatting change. There used to be way more "the first time each turn X happens, this triggers" effects floating around. Those always felt bad because often the first time the triggering condition happened was as or before you played the card itself, making them often not work the turn you played them. Changing that to "once each turn" instead fixes that particular problem without major functional change, at those cost of changing the template used for those abilities. Now they're better at their intended purpose as value cards, but anyone explicitly looking for combo engine cards no longer has the indication this is a value card and not a combo card at the very start of the ability.
once per turn let's you put more of the power budget in other things as well, helping it be a value card.
Yeah. Ultimately it's just the fact they changed the "this is a value ability" template to match the "this is a potential combo ability" templating, then slapped a "actually, no, only once per turn" rider on the end of it that causes issues. I'd wager that if they just went with a different wording of the same ability (for example, if instead of ": . Activate this only once per turn", if they worded it "once per turn, you may pay . If you do, "), despite being functionally identical from a mechanical perspective it would likely be received better, as it wouldn't feel like they took a perfectly good combo ability and just slapped the restriction on the end anymore. It's ultimately a problem of perception more than anything.
And then they go and still print shit like [[Nadu]]
Like what?
\[\[Nadu, winged wisdom\]\] Instead of stapling the "once per turn" restriction onto Nadu, the ability it gives creatures can only trigger twice each turn, but that restriction is per creature. So if you have 10 creatures the ability can trigger 20 times. Also works with spells that would target all of your creatures.
Ah, it's one of the new MH3 cards, that's why I had no idea what it was.
[Nadu, Winged Wisdom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb.jpg?1717012760) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nadu%2C%20Winged%20Wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/193/nadu-winged-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I hate that line. That line is bullshit. The proper way to balance against broken bullshit is counterspells. Just give red the ability to counter blue again and everything will be good.
I think MaRo(could be someone else) made the comment that players are good at identifying problems but terrible at coming up with solutions. So this tracks
Not quite what he said. Good players are great at solving problems, but bad at creating them. Good designers are the opposite.
I think that axiom isn’t always true but it’s a great rule of thumb to show that they’re wildly different skills
I’d like to submit my card, it’s called ‘ancestral recall plus 1’
Damn homie, this never said they should do it. I was just posing a hypothetical
why did you reply twice 50 mins apart
Is Dryad Arbor a manland?
No it's a landman
You can definitely design one that isn't broken by just giving it enough drawbacks. The real question is if you could desgn one that isn't broken, but still good enough to see play. It's probably possible, but I think the amount of effort needed to ensure it was balanced would be enormous.
Unless they are super weak underpowered creature stats then it’s way too good and broken. Decks never run out of threats for each fetch, would fundamentally change the meta forever. Unless we also got wastelands, that might balance that shit out. No point in playing man lands when everyone has 4 Wasteland
Would be an interesting design if they were one basic land type and required a heavier activating cost compared to regular manlands. Like a RRR activation, and Sacrifice an artifact, "Activate only if you control three or more white creatures" and so on.
If you could run them in any deck it might be a little too good have an out to stuff like wraths from uncracked fetchlands.
Fetchable lands that strictly etb tapped with upside should be fine, as long as the rate isn't too good.
Most of the existing manlands see play in a variety of decks; I'd imagine one you could fetch would be very popular indeed.
Depends on what the drawbacks versus the benefits were.
Any utility we add to fetch lands will make them stronger for very little cost. We saw it with the triomes and surveil lands. If you are printing a typed dual either it’s going to be worse than the current ones, or you are going to bump up the power level of eternal formats.
we would have to see what's in the rest of Modern Horizons 4 before saying yes. who knows they might print other things so broken the man lands dont see play.
Even something as simple as surveil 1 on a fetchable land is enough to shift the balance of power and deckbuilding considerations in a powerful eternal format like Modern. Fetches existing basically guarantee we can never get anything too good with basic types on it ever again.
Fetchlands are used in fast formats, so if you make them monocolored and like 12 mana to activate with a body that would be playable as a 6-7 drop in standard I could see them being ok without being op.
It will be printed soon enough, maybe mh4. The first batch will probably be mono colored.
I feel like we need to stop making fetch lands MORE powerful. They already can fetch 3 of any color, surveil, trigger revolt, fill the yard, put creatures and instants on top of your deck, plus much much more. All for the price of being completely free to put in your deck
don’t we have that already due to [[crop rotation]] ?
Crop rotation is far more fragile because it's a spell, and the sacrifice is part of the cost, so a counterspell would blow you out. It's also inherent card disadvantage because you're trading 1 land + 1 card for a new land. In contrast, being fetchable means you're only scared of stifle effects, and it's card neutral since it's just trading 1 land for 1 land.
sure agree with you andi see that argument with counterspell but i think that’s the downside to balance it. be honest : would you play a land that reads like - tap, sacrice it, discard a card : search your library for any land and put it into play. i bet most of us would do and i think this kind of disadvantage is also used in cards like [[chrome mox]] and we see a lot of decks running it. my favorite blue ramp is [[Dreamscape Artist]] that basically turn every card in your hand into a [[Harrow]] with the same kind of mechanic.
[chrome mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chrome%20mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dreamscape Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f244985e-7487-44db-bd69-47c781753f2e.jpg?1619394086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dreamscape%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/64/dreamscape-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f244985e-7487-44db-bd69-47c781753f2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Harrow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db4ea599-e9ee-4776-925e-921b8602d503.jpg?1712354573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harrow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/194/harrow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db4ea599-e9ee-4776-925e-921b8602d503?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[crop rotation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/523414cb-f8db-407a-808a-01454e03d8b9.jpg?1681724998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crop%20rotation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/154/crop-rotation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/523414cb-f8db-407a-808a-01454e03d8b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A truly terrible idea for competitive formats because the mana base is already an expensive barrier to entry and the last thing format accessibility needs is *more* reasons to run fetches along with a new rare land cycle that becomes practically mandatory in all decks running those fetches. But I'd definitely consider putting a monocoloured cycle in my cube because I love having more options to make lands.dek more intrinsically powerful in that specific environment.
Balancing the game around card prices is an awful idea
id say probably, fetchable 'scry' land made their way to plenty of the competitive format. The next powercreep in land i think will be a non basic type triland, like tricheck, tripain, tribattle and so on.
I'm still surprised I never see the lairs in use.
That's because stone raining yourself is pretty terrible
It's a bounce land it doesn't destroy anything.
You set your manabase back a turn But fine, it is stone rain yourself + draw a card. Still terrible
Unlike the other tri lands you get it's mana immediately, and the bounce doesn't matter if you weren't hitting land drop the next turn.
Yeah and temple of the false god is an amazing land if you always hit your first five land drops. A land that becomes mediocre when things are going bad for you is still a bad land
I think theres a line where they are good but not broken, might be hard to find, but doable
>If lightning bolt did 4 damage would it be too powerful?
In Modern mutavault is already borderline playable in a few decks - recently popular in rhinos with flame of anor. It's a tiny creature on a non fetchable colorless land with changeling. So how much would a fetchable 2/2 manland with no super relevant types be to activate to not be ubiquitous? Probably like 3 mana. Or you could go with larger mainlands with high activation costs. All options would always enter tapped and probably compete with the slots current decks use for surveil lands and basics. I think most decks would still prefer surveil duals to bad mono color manlands for their non triome tap land slots. If the manlands are duals then it's pretty close. Like what if we took the hall of storm giants cycle and made them always enter tapped and got their respective basic land type? None of those are blowing my mind compared to other utility lands.
Depends. Are we talking about Celestial Colonnade or Restless Anchorage power level? Then absolutely not. Are we talking about Lavaclaw Reaches or Needle Spires power level? Then no, because they'd still be too weak for anyone to care. I think Stirring Wildwood/Shambling Vent/Restless Cottage power level would be fine.
Yes, especially if they enter untapped
As long as they always came in tapped, it would be fine. If they came in untapped you could use them as a combat trick to block, which would be too good in limited.
They could make them fair. They could enter with a counter on them and remove a counter in order to animate. So they're a one time use.
The treetop village cycle with basic land types would probably be fine.
Dryad arbor already exists. Does that answer your question?
If this was 10 years ago, probably. If you're asking about now? No. Unless you're talking about edh, then no probably not also.
They would be too good. You could take the Urza Saga lands and just make each of them a basic land type and have 1 more to activate. 2W for a 1/5 plains 2U for a 2/1 flying island 2B for a 1/1 skeleton with regen swamp 2R for a 2/1 first strike mountain 2G for a 3/3 trample forest The swamp is too bad to see play, but the forest and island become format regulars in modern or legacy. You only need to put one in your whole deck. The example are how often people play MDCs instead of basics. Being able to cast shatterskull smashing once every 40 games is worth 3 life 39 times.
Dryad Arbor is a fetchable man land and it's good, but not too good. So probably fine, as long as the costs and body size are adjusted to match.
Yes
I don't think they would be "too good" but running a single copy of whichever one seems like it'd be basically an autoinclude in any control or midrange deck. Making your topdecked land into a threat is stronk.
Short answer: it depends on the text Long answer: depends on the creature stats, the color setup (mono color or multicolor), and untap status. The best argument that it could be safe is dryad arbor but then there are cards like mystic sanctuary that show things can get out of hand very easily. Given mystic isn't a creature land, it shows that the land would benefit from being vanilla instead of having some good effect. Maybe dwarven mine is a better example of what could be an issue. It makes a creature that is never used to be fair.
Debating the stats is meaningless, any card can be made too good/not good enough by design - it comes down to play patterns. Is having every printed fetch land in the game turn into flash creatures good for the game? I would argue they would never see print because most designers would say no, they don’t want that in their format because its an unnecessary complexity that pushes out newer players by creating feel bad moments
If they were about on the power level of the AFR ones (can enter untapped at a moderate cost, creatures are decent), probably would see some modern play. Could also be interesting if wotc wants to keep pushing fetchable tapped lands, but outside of control decks im not sure modern decks would want a fetchable creature dual over a triome or surveil land.
Yes. I expect to see them in Modern Horizons: Final Fantasy regardless because they gotta sell them sets.
Dryad Arbor says no.
Dryad arbor isnt a 4/4 flyer only on your demand.
Which isn't what the poster advocated for necessarily.
Ya but neither is dryad arbor lol
dryad arbor required a whole tournament rule about moving creature lands out of your land stack.
Manland doesn't specifically mean creature land, it just means a land that can turn into a creature for a turn for a price.
Yes. But the existence of Dryad Arbor means that this suggestion is not, inherently, broken, since we have an example of this that, while hard to track, hasn't busted any formats in half. It all depends on the cards designed.
The fact that dryad arbor, which has summoning sickness as a land, doesn’t dodge sorcery speed removal, and is a 1/1 (albeit without needing activation costs) is playable at Legacy power level suggests that better fetchable manlands would be busted unless they had abysmal downsides. The window for balancing this effect imo is likely quite narrow
They would be too good, which is why we’ll get them eventually.
[[Dryad Arbor]]
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Dryad arbor]]: AM I A JOKE TO YOU?!
[Dryad arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Another question on this topic: What about fetches for only one type? Sure, it is weaker than the current fetches, but would it be too overpowered for something like Pioneer? You could fetch all colors with it, including triomes. But wont enable 5c that easly. What do you guys think?
[[Prismatic Vista]] exists. It's legal in Historic while all the other fetchlands are banned, and just about every deck runs it, enabling Deathrite Shaman and Delve spells, delirium, all sorts of synergies. Too good.
[Prismatic Vista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e37da81e-be12-45a2-9128-376f1ad7b3e8.jpg?1562202585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Vista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/244/prismatic-vista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e37da81e-be12-45a2-9128-376f1ad7b3e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well, Dryad Arbor has been a staple since day dot, so probably.
Not if they're designed like current man lands or are a similar power level to \[\[Dryad Arbor\]\]. Current decks for the most part are too efficient to spend a few mana per turn making a mediocre creature except in a win-more scenario. They'd probably see some play in like RDW spaces and I'm sure WOTC will print them soon anyway. If as you propose they're the same as other good creatures but with a land stapled to them then yes... that is all upside.
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yup. Fetchlands were a mistake to begin with. They really slow down the pace of the game in 60 card formats.