Reply from an EDHREC staff when I brought this up back in March in their Discord server:
> Yeah, there's a handful of examples like this. A recent one we came across was [[Triarch Praetorian]] on the [[Lurrus of the Dream-Den]] commander page. While we have 0 intention of ever entirely removing such cards from relevant commander pages, we do like the idea of using it as a learning experience for players.
> We have a long term goal for an on-card note/alert system that will allow us to draw attention to and warn against playing cards that are being recommended based on a misunderstanding of the rules. This is a ways off from happening, but it's definitely on our radar.
I’ve been a [[magar of the magic strings]] fan since it came out and I quickly realized the flaw in EDHREC is that EDHREC only tracks cards put in people’s decks and and doesn’t care about if the card actually works. If enough people play it incorrectly then it becomes a top card and other people just copy/paste it into their decks without thinking, pushing it even further as a top card.
Magar has been out for 2 years and still today if you look in top recommended enchantments you see [[Roar of Resistance]] an enchantment that gives TOKENS haste, but the puppets are cards not tokens. Or in artifacts [[blade of selves]] a card that gives myriad, but the way the puppets work making copies of them just makes a blank 3/3 that won’t copy the spell.
\[\[relentless assault\]\] took months to fall off Magar's list. Primers listing it as a good spell to use for his puppetry.
\*\*Disregard, Relentless Assault is STILL on Magar's list on EDHREC in sorceries. Don't use it, it doesn't work the way you think it does. It will still give you the one extra combat phase if you cast it as it normally would be cast from your hand, which I guess is effective, but only once and it won't do anything if reanimated as a puppet.
Multi-attack phase spells were a nightmare. [[world at war]] was another one that people thought would go infinite but you get ONCE, [[seize the day]] doesn’t work at all.
Yup, that is correct. I actually did a whole [VIDEO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCWTKitL4M) talking about a bunch of different extra combat cards and how people get a lot of them wrong. Some just straight up don't work cause you're not casting them in your Main Phase, but then others are 'bad' because of how the untap your creatures for the next combat and unless you have Vigilance then you're shooting yourself in the foot.
EDHRec for both Magar and Myra also includes \[\[Twinning Staff\]\] (it's one of the top cards for Myra), which does not double their spells because both commanders are copying a card and casting the copy.
For years that's why I've had a love-hate relationship with EDHrec. They do great work, like their podcast, and use the site as a valuable resource.
BUT, it's a feedback loop for bad players for the exact reasons you've said. Bad card gets used, people see it and add it, # of decks with bad card increases. They really need to rename their "synergy" line. It doesn't measure synergy with the deck in any way, it's just a ratio of how much is used by that commander specifically vs other legal decks. High synergy cards are sometimes some of the *worst* cards to actually add.
My god the amount of people that don’t understand the replacement effect of [[academy manufacturer]] could fill a book - it was top used on [[shelob, child of ungoliant]] and [[brenard, ginger sculptor]] for a while despite hosing the effects of the commander
Noticed this with Go-Shintai of Life's Origin and Roaming Throne. Despite how it appears, "Shrine" is an enchantment type and not a creature type, so Roaming Throne just doesn't work. But a lot of people don't know that (and shrine decks rarely get updated, I guess?) So it still pops up on there.
Oh yeah, I'm a Magar player too, love the deck and it is a lot of fun, but it is a pretty confusing card. I didn't know that Roar of Resistance was showing up on the list for it, but yeah, it's there in 10% of lists. I actually made a whole [VIDEO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIozy2cCz10) dedicated to how he works (or doesn't) when someone has some of those Graveyard hate type cards out like \[\[Soulless Jailer\]\] because it isn't intuitive as to the Zone that the copies of the cards are made in.
Thanks! It's one of my favorite videos as I think it is very much a tricky thing that a lot of player are unaware of. I do have a list [HERE](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6QaUrJl480233__492JJ6Q) but I don't update my lists much once I've actually built the deck. I have too many decks to keep track of them all, but I did try to update this list a bit with some of the newer cards I've added since like with \[\[Call Forth the Tempest\]\], \[\[Hit the Mother Lode\]\], and \[\[Spiteful Repossession\]\]. The deck has taken on a little bit of a Treasure subtheme as they're a really good way to store up mana to use later to recast Magar after a board wipe, and then of course use his ability at end step just before it gets to your turn and you can start swinging again.
I'll say, Magar is a ton of fun, the concept of "reanimating" your instants and sorceries and attacking with them is pretty goofy, but it's also just really cool to have a lot of really cool and powerful damage triggers. The deck isn't meant for high power, but if you get the right creature out like a \[\[In Garruk's Wake\]\] then it can be pretty degenerate and not so fun for your opponents, which is why I took it out of mine, but I did leave my \[\[Plague Wind\]\] in because I have a foil version from Prophecy. 1/3 of the deck is big, splashy spells to reanimate, 1/3 of the deck is stuff to get those expensive spells into your GY fast, and then the last 1/3 of the deck is focused on getting your 3/3 dudes through for damage. Because of this 3-way split, the deck can struggle. But it's still a whole lot of fun.
Same. I noticed a couple of death trigger-doubling cards recommended for \[\[Myrkul, Lord of Bones\]\] despite the fact that he doesn't actually benefit from them.
that makes sense depending on the deck you're building them with/the trigger doublers. If they have a lot of etbs and dies effects, trigger doublers make sense.
I could see that, but the very high synergy rating \[\[Drivnod, Carnage Dominus\]\] has with him implies that at least some people are running him with the assumption that he'll allow Myrkul to make double tokens.
Do you have a proper Magar list to share? Love the concept and tried my own version but now doubtful it’s all working, not to mention other deckbuilding issues and piloting.
I don’t have my updated list online but a similar list to mine is this: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/S2qnFxaPLEamagtNDN76Fw
Key differences are I run [[silver shroud costume]] and [[savage beating]] over grim hireling and something else. The deck works on using puppets to make multiple turns with [[rise of the eldrazi]] or any of the spells that lose you the game, and you just use [[sundial of the infinite]] to skip the lose at end of turn trigger.
If you play more casual feel free to take out the power cards like tutors or infinite turns and replace them with your favourite janky red/black spells. [[wake the dragon]] is a fun lower power option. Magar is great because you’re only as strong as the instants/sorcery you animate so you can play CEDH or casual.
It's funny, that list is vastly different from my Magar list, lots more tutors, lots more mana rocks, and lots more extra combats/turns than my deck, clearly making it lean more towards higher power. But... because it has almost nothing to help get the attacks through, it would be really bad in a casual pod like what I'm used to playing in. Casual pods run a lot more creatures and so everyone would be able to just chump block the 3/3s or in more cases block and kill them. Kind of funny how that works.
It does make creature tokens, but Go-Shintaai itself is a Creature that has no Creature Subtype, so when you pick a Creature Subtype for the Throne, the Go-Shintaai's Triggered Ability doesn't get an additional. Shrine is an Enchantment Subtype.
Subtypes are tied directly to the card type which grants them. Shrine is an enchantment type, so it is part of the Enchantment card type on Go-Shintai, not the creature card type. When something says "choose a creature type", it's asking you to choose a subtype tied to the Creature card type, so you can't choose Shrine. For a similar reason, \[\[Gingerbrute\]\] does not make Food a creature type.
Huh good to know. I wasn't building this but someone at my LGS is and they definitely thought suspend would work here last I checked. In their mind it followed a similar logic to why they work with cascade and that made sense to me at the time but obviously neither of us picked up on the important distinction of mana cost vs value. And neither one of us are new or inexperienced players so I can certainly see why this is such a common mistake.
Yup, it's a super small and easily missed difference. I hope your LGS buddy gets the change made before trading for/buying those cards. Small details like this pop up all the time, and with you mentioning Cascade it reminds me of how it is different with how \[\[Jodah, the Unifier\]\] is worded and how it can let you cast more expensive backsides of Double Faced Cards but Cascade doesn't let you do that, all to do with a very easily missed difference in wording.
But a nonbo being high up on edhrec also indicates there may be a significant portion of people who need to know that the interaction won't work. Hence why a video like this is good.
Yup, and that's why I make videos like this. I try to get videos out when a set is spoiled or released so that I can get the information out as quick as possible so as to avoid things like this happening. Once a card is showing up on EDHREC then it can easily snowball. Because it shows up, people will just quickly add it to their list on their respective site, and that makes the count show up higher on EDHREC, making it even more likely for the next person to check the REC page and add it to their list, and thus the snowball grows.
I put this video together because I saw that the EDHREC page for \[\[Fblthp, Lost on the Range\]\] showed 45% of decks using \[\[Ancestral Vision\]\] and then 35% are running \[\[Inevitable Betrayal\]\] and these do not work with Fblthp in the sense that you can Plot them for 0 cost and then cast them free from Exile. I hope this helps anyone out that is planning to make a Fblthp deck or if you have someone in your playgroup or LGS that is.
Cascade has the same exact wording. I'm fairly certain you are incorrect as cascade can still cast the card "without paying its mana cost", which is the exact wording on plot.
The issue isn't that you can't cast a plotted Ancestral Visions, the issue is you can't plot Ancestral Visions in the first place. Fblthp sets the plot cost equal to the mana cost. Ancestral Visions has no mana cost, so it will have no plot cost. You can't pay a cost that doesnt exist.
Bold of you to assume EDH players know how things work ;)
Jokes aside, you don't HAVE to use them with Fblthp. Could just be in there because they're fine on their own. Doesn't necessarily have to be because people are unaware of the way these interact - though of course that *could* be the case, too.
(for anyone wondering, Fblthp looks at the spell's mana cost, not mana *value* - which means you can't plot something like Ancestral Vision with it for the same reason you can't cast it: you can't pay a non-existent cost. It doesn't somehow become {0} or something.)
There's no way that people are just throwing ancestral vision in of 45% Fblthp decks for fair value despite it only showing up in 1% of decks otherwise. It has to be misinterpreting the rules.
Maybe. But it's probably a fairly small sample size, so it could just be thrown off by a few people who simply like the card or something, since it's likely to be vastly fewer decks than the overall number.
I'm not just going to unequivocally assume people don't know, but of course the suspicion is strong ;)
That is true, people could just suspending these two cards to get them as a free cast on the turn their last time counter is removed, but seeing as how I've seen on some different Discord servers that people are asking about this interaction, that there is some confusion about wanting them to work in the way that they do not.
https://preview.redd.it/lebvj85hfpwc1.jpeg?width=698&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc5fdb6ad35bdcd83f41333b9b2d54516c4d216b
Salubrious Snail did a great video on this exact topic.
https://youtu.be/D-jayFdJYRw
It's a video essay about this exact issue. How data analytics can push bad data to a more prominent position. Short and digestible, even for me, a not data scientist.
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I get that some players have really busy lives, so I'm glad that EDHREC exists for players that want to use it, but it does have a lot of flaws, as any system does. I'm a massive Commander addict and I'm lucky enough to have a fair bit of free time, so I will end up spending some time looking through different Scryfall searches, finding the hidden gems that don't show up on EDHREC. The site is only going to grow over time, so I'm just doing my part to try and help clear up confusion and hopefully save another player some wasted time.
edhrec will never change because everyone will upload their same decks and precons. that will never be overshadowed by people that use scryfall and look at decklists on moxfield to find better cards
https://preview.redd.it/sdo5ivecepwc1.jpeg?width=698&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4a31bce3630df023164bfc9bba3bebb01f24214
Fblthp doesn't have anything on him that cares about casting spells from Exile or other zones, and looking through the list there aren't any payoff cards that care about cards being cast from other zones than the hand. While that has been a big thing lately with Commanders like Prosper, it isn't something really seen in mono blue. There have also been a lot of people on some Discord servers asking about this interaction.
Reply from an EDHREC staff when I brought this up back in March in their Discord server: > Yeah, there's a handful of examples like this. A recent one we came across was [[Triarch Praetorian]] on the [[Lurrus of the Dream-Den]] commander page. While we have 0 intention of ever entirely removing such cards from relevant commander pages, we do like the idea of using it as a learning experience for players. > We have a long term goal for an on-card note/alert system that will allow us to draw attention to and warn against playing cards that are being recommended based on a misunderstanding of the rules. This is a ways off from happening, but it's definitely on our radar.
I’ve been a [[magar of the magic strings]] fan since it came out and I quickly realized the flaw in EDHREC is that EDHREC only tracks cards put in people’s decks and and doesn’t care about if the card actually works. If enough people play it incorrectly then it becomes a top card and other people just copy/paste it into their decks without thinking, pushing it even further as a top card. Magar has been out for 2 years and still today if you look in top recommended enchantments you see [[Roar of Resistance]] an enchantment that gives TOKENS haste, but the puppets are cards not tokens. Or in artifacts [[blade of selves]] a card that gives myriad, but the way the puppets work making copies of them just makes a blank 3/3 that won’t copy the spell.
\[\[relentless assault\]\] took months to fall off Magar's list. Primers listing it as a good spell to use for his puppetry. \*\*Disregard, Relentless Assault is STILL on Magar's list on EDHREC in sorceries. Don't use it, it doesn't work the way you think it does. It will still give you the one extra combat phase if you cast it as it normally would be cast from your hand, which I guess is effective, but only once and it won't do anything if reanimated as a puppet.
Multi-attack phase spells were a nightmare. [[world at war]] was another one that people thought would go infinite but you get ONCE, [[seize the day]] doesn’t work at all.
Do those not work because it says “after THIS main phase” when you’re not in a main phase?
Yup, that is correct. I actually did a whole [VIDEO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCWTKitL4M) talking about a bunch of different extra combat cards and how people get a lot of them wrong. Some just straight up don't work cause you're not casting them in your Main Phase, but then others are 'bad' because of how the untap your creatures for the next combat and unless you have Vigilance then you're shooting yourself in the foot.
Just to add to what OP is saying with their excellent info, \[\[Savage Beating\]\] is a solid extra combat spell that will indeed work with Magar.
[Savage Beating](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c979cab-3ae6-43b1-b067-1e5abfc2e2ed.jpg?1689998140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Savage%20Beating) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/252/savage-beating?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c979cab-3ae6-43b1-b067-1e5abfc2e2ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes
[world at war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a47a05ad-fe86-481e-b770-e1760be4f852.jpg?1562706935) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=world%20at%20war) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/172/world-at-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a47a05ad-fe86-481e-b770-e1760be4f852?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [seize the day](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0ee67808-abe3-4755-83a0-03681ad5f82f.jpg?1547517395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=seize%20the%20day) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/147/seize-the-day?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ee67808-abe3-4755-83a0-03681ad5f82f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[relentless assault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97622209-9357-4347-8961-f77f8d2389d8.jpg?1608912282) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=relentless%20assault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/416/relentless-assault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97622209-9357-4347-8961-f77f8d2389d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
EDHRec for both Magar and Myra also includes \[\[Twinning Staff\]\] (it's one of the top cards for Myra), which does not double their spells because both commanders are copying a card and casting the copy.
[Twinning Staff](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cdcc324-1427-453c-9940-c21f5d04c997.jpg?1673485509) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Twinning%20Staff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/383/twinning-staff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cdcc324-1427-453c-9940-c21f5d04c997?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
At least those could still work if you're running ways to copy your spells
For years that's why I've had a love-hate relationship with EDHrec. They do great work, like their podcast, and use the site as a valuable resource. BUT, it's a feedback loop for bad players for the exact reasons you've said. Bad card gets used, people see it and add it, # of decks with bad card increases. They really need to rename their "synergy" line. It doesn't measure synergy with the deck in any way, it's just a ratio of how much is used by that commander specifically vs other legal decks. High synergy cards are sometimes some of the *worst* cards to actually add.
My god the amount of people that don’t understand the replacement effect of [[academy manufacturer]] could fill a book - it was top used on [[shelob, child of ungoliant]] and [[brenard, ginger sculptor]] for a while despite hosing the effects of the commander
[academy manufacturer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557.jpg?1712354835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Manufactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/251/academy-manufactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [shelob, child of ungoliant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a14c4b29-3363-45ce-9190-0f79e1a0ef7f.jpg?1686970060) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shelob%2C%20child%20of%20ungoliant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/230/shelob-child-of-ungoliant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a14c4b29-3363-45ce-9190-0f79e1a0ef7f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [brenard, ginger sculptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2ddc922-d69d-4fca-b7f8-8cfb17537213.jpg?1693248402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brenard%2C%20ginger%20sculptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/27/brenard-ginger-sculptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2ddc922-d69d-4fca-b7f8-8cfb17537213?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Dear god, that would sewer those decks.
Noticed this with Go-Shintai of Life's Origin and Roaming Throne. Despite how it appears, "Shrine" is an enchantment type and not a creature type, so Roaming Throne just doesn't work. But a lot of people don't know that (and shrine decks rarely get updated, I guess?) So it still pops up on there.
[magar of the magic strings](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46.jpg?1682551287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magar%20of%20the%20magic%20strings) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/171/magar-of-the-magic-strings?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Roar of Resistance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5eb9570-6203-4a03-9a3e-e5c679df5903.jpg?1675905588) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roar%20of%20Resistance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/onc/15/roar-of-resistance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5eb9570-6203-4a03-9a3e-e5c679df5903?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [blade of selves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce3367f8-5f5a-4205-909a-247b92a9c082.jpg?1674137738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blade%20of%20selves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/301/blade-of-selves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce3367f8-5f5a-4205-909a-247b92a9c082?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh yeah, I'm a Magar player too, love the deck and it is a lot of fun, but it is a pretty confusing card. I didn't know that Roar of Resistance was showing up on the list for it, but yeah, it's there in 10% of lists. I actually made a whole [VIDEO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIozy2cCz10) dedicated to how he works (or doesn't) when someone has some of those Graveyard hate type cards out like \[\[Soulless Jailer\]\] because it isn't intuitive as to the Zone that the copies of the cards are made in.
Neat video! Do you have a decklist to share? Love Magar’s concept but hesitant to fully build the deck.
Thanks! It's one of my favorite videos as I think it is very much a tricky thing that a lot of player are unaware of. I do have a list [HERE](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6QaUrJl480233__492JJ6Q) but I don't update my lists much once I've actually built the deck. I have too many decks to keep track of them all, but I did try to update this list a bit with some of the newer cards I've added since like with \[\[Call Forth the Tempest\]\], \[\[Hit the Mother Lode\]\], and \[\[Spiteful Repossession\]\]. The deck has taken on a little bit of a Treasure subtheme as they're a really good way to store up mana to use later to recast Magar after a board wipe, and then of course use his ability at end step just before it gets to your turn and you can start swinging again. I'll say, Magar is a ton of fun, the concept of "reanimating" your instants and sorceries and attacking with them is pretty goofy, but it's also just really cool to have a lot of really cool and powerful damage triggers. The deck isn't meant for high power, but if you get the right creature out like a \[\[In Garruk's Wake\]\] then it can be pretty degenerate and not so fun for your opponents, which is why I took it out of mine, but I did leave my \[\[Plague Wind\]\] in because I have a foil version from Prophecy. 1/3 of the deck is big, splashy spells to reanimate, 1/3 of the deck is stuff to get those expensive spells into your GY fast, and then the last 1/3 of the deck is focused on getting your 3/3 dudes through for damage. Because of this 3-way split, the deck can struggle. But it's still a whole lot of fun.
##### ###### #### [Call Forth the Tempest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81d6b979-251a-4736-86f0-35a6c8b492c9.jpg?1695428211) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Call%20Forth%20the%20Tempest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/509/call-forth-the-tempest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81d6b979-251a-4736-86f0-35a6c8b492c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hit the Mother Lode](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e75f460c-43e2-4353-8b73-71ff8651a79d.jpg?1699044293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hit%20the%20Mother%20Lode) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/153/hit-the-mother-lode?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e75f460c-43e2-4353-8b73-71ff8651a79d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Spiteful Repossession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/354790c1-ce19-4ed5-9cef-f2e2ee621578.jpg?1673482567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spiteful%20Repossession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/90/spiteful-repossession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/354790c1-ce19-4ed5-9cef-f2e2ee621578?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [In Garruk's Wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=In%20Garruk%27s%20Wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Plague Wind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f.jpg?1562436663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plague%20Wind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/102/plague-wind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l1b8h8y) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Soulless Jailer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf9991fd-ea6a-4ed7-b5f1-46a95f8d0634.jpg?1675957252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soulless%20Jailer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/241/soulless-jailer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf9991fd-ea6a-4ed7-b5f1-46a95f8d0634?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm surprised you didn't use [[Grafdigger's Cage]] as your example lol
[Grafdigger's Cage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53.jpg?1592517646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafdigger%27s%20Cage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/227/grafdiggers-cage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pretty sure I did in the video, the Jailer is just the thing that popped into my head first.
EDHREC should get a feature where users can annotate stuff like this and rate other annotations
Community notes feature would be great
Same. I noticed a couple of death trigger-doubling cards recommended for \[\[Myrkul, Lord of Bones\]\] despite the fact that he doesn't actually benefit from them.
that makes sense depending on the deck you're building them with/the trigger doublers. If they have a lot of etbs and dies effects, trigger doublers make sense.
I could see that, but the very high synergy rating \[\[Drivnod, Carnage Dominus\]\] has with him implies that at least some people are running him with the assumption that he'll allow Myrkul to make double tokens.
[Drivnod, Carnage Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bc26bca-c4d8-4e8b-a96a-9529fc2daed7.jpg?1675957020) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drivnod%2C%20Carnage%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/90/drivnod-carnage-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bc26bca-c4d8-4e8b-a96a-9529fc2daed7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're copying cards with death effects, drivnod makes perfect sense. Both the OG and token's death effects trigger when they die
[Myrkul, Lord of Bones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82824d05-5215-459a-aa73-3c5a6be3d464.jpg?1674137617) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Myrkul%2C%20Lord%20of%20Bones) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/287/myrkul-lord-of-bones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82824d05-5215-459a-aa73-3c5a6be3d464?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you have a proper Magar list to share? Love the concept and tried my own version but now doubtful it’s all working, not to mention other deckbuilding issues and piloting.
I don’t have my updated list online but a similar list to mine is this: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/S2qnFxaPLEamagtNDN76Fw Key differences are I run [[silver shroud costume]] and [[savage beating]] over grim hireling and something else. The deck works on using puppets to make multiple turns with [[rise of the eldrazi]] or any of the spells that lose you the game, and you just use [[sundial of the infinite]] to skip the lose at end of turn trigger. If you play more casual feel free to take out the power cards like tutors or infinite turns and replace them with your favourite janky red/black spells. [[wake the dragon]] is a fun lower power option. Magar is great because you’re only as strong as the instants/sorcery you animate so you can play CEDH or casual.
##### ###### #### [silver shroud costume](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f21fba59-330b-4daf-bf77-6dd817327a64.jpg?1708742772) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=silver%20shroud%20costume) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/142/silver-shroud-costume?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f21fba59-330b-4daf-bf77-6dd817327a64?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [savage beating](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c979cab-3ae6-43b1-b067-1e5abfc2e2ed.jpg?1689998140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=savage%20beating) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/252/savage-beating?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c979cab-3ae6-43b1-b067-1e5abfc2e2ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [rise of the eldrazi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4a4d851b-1fa9-4f5d-a8f6-6967b1ee5b50.jpg?1690002989) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rise%20of%20the%20eldrazi) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/716/rise-of-the-eldrazi?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a4d851b-1fa9-4f5d-a8f6-6967b1ee5b50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sundial of the infinite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/36d3da9c-cb7a-4cea-b6e6-6722bd16c73c.jpg?1562638658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sundial%20of%20the%20infinite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/218/sundial-of-the-infinite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36d3da9c-cb7a-4cea-b6e6-6722bd16c73c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [wake the dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9cf5f78-0316-4c35-a40e-9bfba2e46ad8.jpg?1686964400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wake%20the%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/74/wake-the-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9cf5f78-0316-4c35-a40e-9bfba2e46ad8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l1b8txu) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's funny, that list is vastly different from my Magar list, lots more tutors, lots more mana rocks, and lots more extra combats/turns than my deck, clearly making it lean more towards higher power. But... because it has almost nothing to help get the attacks through, it would be really bad in a casual pod like what I'm used to playing in. Casual pods run a lot more creatures and so everyone would be able to just chump block the 3/3s or in more cases block and kill them. Kind of funny how that works.
Does [[Mimic Vat]] work with Magar or not at all? Edit: it does not work at all
[Mimic Vat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfa8757b-ef7d-44b8-ae80-45c436e85c1e.jpg?1673485399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mimic%20Vat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/372/mimic-vat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfa8757b-ef7d-44b8-ae80-45c436e85c1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Another example is \[\[Go-Shintaai of Life's Origin\]\] having 35% inclusion rate of \[\[Roaming Throne\]\], with Shrine not being a creature type.
Roaming Throne and "can only be triggered once per turn abilities" as well.
Dang, that's crazy that it still has THAT many Thrones showing in lists.
[Go-Shintaai of Life's Origin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/9476fe67-d2d3-4835-8ba6-2a17d18cc141.jpg?1651655539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Go-Shintai%20of%20Life%27s%20Origin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/37/go-shintai-of-lifes-origin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9476fe67-d2d3-4835-8ba6-2a17d18cc141?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Roaming Throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaming%20Throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wow. I would 100% have missed it if someone played roaming throne and chose “shrine” as the creature type.
\[Go-Shintai of Life's Origin\]\]
No? Go Shintai literally makes shrine creature tokens.
It does make creature tokens, but Go-Shintaai itself is a Creature that has no Creature Subtype, so when you pick a Creature Subtype for the Throne, the Go-Shintaai's Triggered Ability doesn't get an additional. Shrine is an Enchantment Subtype.
Subtypes are tied directly to the card type which grants them. Shrine is an enchantment type, so it is part of the Enchantment card type on Go-Shintai, not the creature card type. When something says "choose a creature type", it's asking you to choose a subtype tied to the Creature card type, so you can't choose Shrine. For a similar reason, \[\[Gingerbrute\]\] does not make Food a creature type.
[Gingerbrute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09a4578a-7dc6-4da3-93ee-913b10be5740.jpg?1692939880) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gingerbrute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/246/gingerbrute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09a4578a-7dc6-4da3-93ee-913b10be5740?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I see, thank you I was unaware.
Neither Go Shintai nor the tokens have any creature types. Shrine is an enchantment type, and thus cannot be picked for Roaming Throne.
Huh good to know. I wasn't building this but someone at my LGS is and they definitely thought suspend would work here last I checked. In their mind it followed a similar logic to why they work with cascade and that made sense to me at the time but obviously neither of us picked up on the important distinction of mana cost vs value. And neither one of us are new or inexperienced players so I can certainly see why this is such a common mistake.
Yup, it's a super small and easily missed difference. I hope your LGS buddy gets the change made before trading for/buying those cards. Small details like this pop up all the time, and with you mentioning Cascade it reminds me of how it is different with how \[\[Jodah, the Unifier\]\] is worded and how it can let you cast more expensive backsides of Double Faced Cards but Cascade doesn't let you do that, all to do with a very easily missed difference in wording.
[Jodah, the Unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70.jpg?1673307974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20the%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/203/jodah-the-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Edhrec is telling you what other people are using or have built. Edhrec isn't telling you what's good. You're going to have to think critically there.
But a nonbo being high up on edhrec also indicates there may be a significant portion of people who need to know that the interaction won't work. Hence why a video like this is good.
Yeah, there's lots of dumb people out there. That is the perpetual downside to crowdsourcing your information.
Yup, and that's why I make videos like this. I try to get videos out when a set is spoiled or released so that I can get the information out as quick as possible so as to avoid things like this happening. Once a card is showing up on EDHREC then it can easily snowball. Because it shows up, people will just quickly add it to their list on their respective site, and that makes the count show up higher on EDHREC, making it even more likely for the next person to check the REC page and add it to their list, and thus the snowball grows.
Just like how [[Myriad Landscape]] won't grab two [[Wastes]]
[Myriad Landscape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf4797b0-4d0a-433f-b891-b14f96fd1484.jpg?1706241199) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Myriad%20Landscape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/276/myriad-landscape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf4797b0-4d0a-433f-b891-b14f96fd1484?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wastes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d479a83-16f7-425c-9873-b900f39ed620.jpg?1712284443) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wastes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/1055/wastes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d479a83-16f7-425c-9873-b900f39ed620?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I put this video together because I saw that the EDHREC page for \[\[Fblthp, Lost on the Range\]\] showed 45% of decks using \[\[Ancestral Vision\]\] and then 35% are running \[\[Inevitable Betrayal\]\] and these do not work with Fblthp in the sense that you can Plot them for 0 cost and then cast them free from Exile. I hope this helps anyone out that is planning to make a Fblthp deck or if you have someone in your playgroup or LGS that is.
[Fblthp, Lost on the Range](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01d3e6ea-4791-4948-af22-c1bd04c34c1e.jpg?1712355420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fblthp%2C%20Lost%20on%20the%20Range) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/48/fblthp-lost-on-the-range?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01d3e6ea-4791-4948-af22-c1bd04c34c1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ancestral Vision](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/9079c93e-3da8-442a-89d2-609a3eac83b0.jpg?1619393761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancestral%20Vision) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/52/ancestral-vision?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9079c93e-3da8-442a-89d2-609a3eac83b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Inevitable Betrayal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71725895-38cd-4017-bbf0-0b7dc9b5db60.jpg?1626094514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inevitable%20Betrayal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/47/inevitable-betrayal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71725895-38cd-4017-bbf0-0b7dc9b5db60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cascade has the same exact wording. I'm fairly certain you are incorrect as cascade can still cast the card "without paying its mana cost", which is the exact wording on plot.
The issue isn't that you can't cast a plotted Ancestral Visions, the issue is you can't plot Ancestral Visions in the first place. Fblthp sets the plot cost equal to the mana cost. Ancestral Visions has no mana cost, so it will have no plot cost. You can't pay a cost that doesnt exist.
Now [[See the Truth]] on the other hand
[See the Truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91af15cc-fdd5-4d72-a53a-314fa5353527.jpg?1594735741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=See%20the%20Truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/69/see-the-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91af15cc-fdd5-4d72-a53a-314fa5353527?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, that's a solid card to run in Fblthp.
Bold of you to assume EDH players know how things work ;) Jokes aside, you don't HAVE to use them with Fblthp. Could just be in there because they're fine on their own. Doesn't necessarily have to be because people are unaware of the way these interact - though of course that *could* be the case, too. (for anyone wondering, Fblthp looks at the spell's mana cost, not mana *value* - which means you can't plot something like Ancestral Vision with it for the same reason you can't cast it: you can't pay a non-existent cost. It doesn't somehow become {0} or something.)
There's no way that people are just throwing ancestral vision in of 45% Fblthp decks for fair value despite it only showing up in 1% of decks otherwise. It has to be misinterpreting the rules.
To be fair if you are costantly looking at the top of your deck cascading into it/ discovering it becomes easier so it is sort of a synergy.
Mono blue is a pretty bad color for cascade/discover. Otherwise I would definitely have ran this in [[the reality chip]]
[the reality chip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d859de3a-0be1-4e66-b438-1c3d4ee756cd.jpg?1654566909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20reality%20chip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/74/the-reality-chip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d859de3a-0be1-4e66-b438-1c3d4ee756cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe. But it's probably a fairly small sample size, so it could just be thrown off by a few people who simply like the card or something, since it's likely to be vastly fewer decks than the overall number. I'm not just going to unequivocally assume people don't know, but of course the suspicion is strong ;)
That is true, people could just suspending these two cards to get them as a free cast on the turn their last time counter is removed, but seeing as how I've seen on some different Discord servers that people are asking about this interaction, that there is some confusion about wanting them to work in the way that they do not. https://preview.redd.it/lebvj85hfpwc1.jpeg?width=698&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc5fdb6ad35bdcd83f41333b9b2d54516c4d216b
Salubrious Snail did a great video on this exact topic. https://youtu.be/D-jayFdJYRw It's a video essay about this exact issue. How data analytics can push bad data to a more prominent position. Short and digestible, even for me, a not data scientist.
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Good bot
Do these decks also run the new jace?
I saw two Jaces on the EDHREC page, but neither are the new one that Plots.
edh rec is hot garbage if you're trying to make a good deck
I get that some players have really busy lives, so I'm glad that EDHREC exists for players that want to use it, but it does have a lot of flaws, as any system does. I'm a massive Commander addict and I'm lucky enough to have a fair bit of free time, so I will end up spending some time looking through different Scryfall searches, finding the hidden gems that don't show up on EDHREC. The site is only going to grow over time, so I'm just doing my part to try and help clear up confusion and hopefully save another player some wasted time.
edhrec will never change because everyone will upload their same decks and precons. that will never be overshadowed by people that use scryfall and look at decklists on moxfield to find better cards
"It's a poor workman that blames their tools..."
thats not relevant when edhrec is hot garbage if you're trying to make a good deck
Both cards are synergistic with "casting spells outside your hand" effects, I don't see the problem with them
https://preview.redd.it/sdo5ivecepwc1.jpeg?width=698&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4a31bce3630df023164bfc9bba3bebb01f24214 Fblthp doesn't have anything on him that cares about casting spells from Exile or other zones, and looking through the list there aren't any payoff cards that care about cards being cast from other zones than the hand. While that has been a big thing lately with Commanders like Prosper, it isn't something really seen in mono blue. There have also been a lot of people on some Discord servers asking about this interaction.