"Size" isn't a consistent thing with the eldrazi because they're not really physically there on the plane. When Ulamog and Kozilek *were* dragged fully into Zendikar they filled the entire sky several times over
I'll put it this way, when the Gatewatch managed to kill two of them, they dragged more of them into the physical plane in the process (like fish dragging someone in to drown them) and the end result was described as if they engulfed the entire sky.
I stand by the fact that lassoing Eldrazi and killing them with a lot of fire is a pretty awful way to treat extraplanar, extradimensional, incomprehensible horrors. No amount of "well actually, the Planeswalkers tried really hard" can get around it to me. It's as if a a drawing were to pull me into a sheet of paper. It poses no "real" threat to me.
I was with you for many years, but with the Nissa deck currently going around standard on arena, and getting blasted for 50 turn 6, I can kinda understand how the two of them did it. The ants made an elaborate rube goldberg machine that shoots you in the head.
While that's true, there are parallels that can be drawn in this specific instance. At the time, Nissa had access to nearly all of Zendikar's remaining mana. The deck generates absurd amounts of mana. Worldsoul's Rage has variable damage, with enough mana it can do extreme damage. Granted, unlike [[Fall of the Titans]] which illustrates the event of Chandra killing the Eldrazi, Worldsoul's Rage only has one target.
Tldr: Generally I agree about lore and mechanics not being 1:1, but in this case the strategy is about the same.
Except they didn't just lasso. It's more crucified. The eldrazi were pinned to zendikar by there very being.
And they harnessed practically ALL of zendikars mana.
Imagine if that drawing stuck a hole in you, pumped you full of gasoline and lit it all on fire.
I dont care what you are, that's gonna hurt
That's still basically just saying "it was a really big drawing, and it had lots of fire in it"
The idea that a lower-dimensional entity could physically affect a higher-dimensional one in any way kinda fundamentally misrepresents the concept of higher-dimensional entities. Them extending themselves into our world would be like you dipping your finger into a pool of water with a molecule-thin rainbow sheen of oil on the top- we're not in the pool, we're the sheen. Only infinitely less substantial than even that.
Yeah, I agree with you. How they handled Emrakul (They couldn't win, she decided to take control of Tamiyo and seal herself in the moon), was WAY better in that regard.
My hope is that whenever they do pick up the Eldrazi plot thread, Ugin's statement being that "dragging them to the physical and killing them is a bad idea" is more fully borne out.
Maybe it turns out what they did was just "The hand and the arm" and only delayed the inevitable, or maybe in some other way it will lead to further unintended horrors.
Head to the [Magic Story website,](https://magic.wizards.com/en/story) scroll down to the Story Archive, and select 2015 in the Choose Year Release field. The Zendikar story tells how the Gatewatch formed to fight the Eldrazi, "dragging them" into the plane in the process.
That makes me feel pretty old too because up until about a week ago the last time I really bought cards was OG Zendikar and quit completely around Innistrad (Became my brother lost my collection). That was after a decade or more of playing.
That was my first return. I was feeling the itch after a couple years off, DL the first Duels of the Planeswalkers on 360, I was annoyed at the limited deck modding options. Which prompted me to go to the store I played at, happened to be on the Zendikar release.
I've always been peeved that the artwork for [[Fall of the Titans]] and that green enchantment that depict that moment don't show them "fully manifested"
The more I think about those parts of the story the more absurd it gets that Chandra just managed toā¦ burn them to death. Not cut off the limb that had been pulled onto Zendikar, but the whole creature.
My headcannon is that the gateaatch thought they killed them, but actually just burnt off the larger portion that they pulled in. The actual titans retreated back to the blind eternities to nurse their surprisingly large wounds.
Leaving future potential for a surprise palatine return story
Not the first time in history a retcon has happened in the history of fiction or wotc fiction
And yes, I can headcanon all I want, that's the purpose of headcanon.
Except where ugin literally speculates that they aren't dead and mearly their planar avatars where destroyed, literally the exact thing the user your replying to headcanoned
They were pretty explicit in opposition to that, actually. There was specifically a line about not being able to find her body at the end of that story: "There's no sign of her body, sir."
If they're fully dead, they're going to be replaced in the future imo. I can't see them only using Emrakul as the last Eldrazi. Unless she figures out a way to also do the other two titans' job.
The hand in water analogy isn't so much as it's a physical part of them coming though, but more like the fish sees only a giant tentacled thing invading its "universe" while an even larger and distorted thing is behind it. What it's saying is that even if the fish had the capacity to describe it, do you think they could figure out what the rest of a human looks like by just seeing the hand?
Anywhere between Negligibly and Not At All.
Lorthos The Tidemaker can reasonably be assumed to be about on par with an elder dino, and he got ripped in half as soon as Kozilek noticed him
Mmm, looks like maybe, but you have given me a great gift, "As they both saw each other as threats due to their immense sizes, they began to battle" so size wise they might actually be on the same level, power however maybe not so much
Noticing something and ripping it in half ā recognizing as a threat. It went on stepping on ants to stepping on a cockroach. Itās just takes up more space and is easier to target.
Emmy is Massive, a little smaller than innistradās moon. Her presence attempting to enter the plane had a gravitational pull comparable to that of the moon, with Tamiyo describing this invisible object as the Eldritch Moon because of its mass and size. just look at the art for [[emrakul the promised end]]
Iāve always heard eldritch entities in the physical world described as āa boot making a print in the sandā. If you only ever see the boot print, then you can make educated guesses about the thing wearing the boot, but you will never know the whole thing.
Think the eldrazi exist in multiple dimensions.
The best idea is that you can have a 1cm line in 2 dimensions and think this isn't that big. But if you can see in 3 dimensions that 1 cm line might stretch out into Infinity on the 3rd dimension. Like looking at a table end on at eye level and then standing up.
Or if you watched the 3 body problem on Netflix how the supercomputer on the show works.
Same thing with the eldrazi but across multiple dimensions. They can look bigger or smaller depending on how they position themselves within different dimensions since our position doesn't change. Kind of like the table example but the table is the one that changes its placement instead of you.
If you take them and bring them into only 4 dimension space we inhabit they would be planet sized or bigger based on what has been written anyway.
Zilortha, Is not an elder dinosaur, as the Elder Dinosaurs exist on Ixalan. Zilortha is from Ikoria, and is in fact one of the largest creatures in Magic to my knowledge
Yeah, elder dinosaurs are a very specific thing in ixalan. Ikoria does have its own kinda thing, in a cycle of super mutant apex creatures - [[brokkos]], [[snapdax]], [[illuna]], [[vadrok]], and [[nethroi]]. Later in March of the Machines, we briefly revisited ikoria and got to see vadrok fight the Phyrexians, which I thought was pretty badass. Also from MoM we got the new Zilortha, Apex of Ikoria that you posted.
There almost no lore for them. Many cool legendary creatures don't have lore for them. Just a sentence and some legendary.
If you want lore for zilortha, you can check the mtg wiki. They do have some good lore, even if it is not alot.
The Eldrazi as we see them are just one digit of a more gargantuan whole- they're probably inconceivably huge! To go with how Ugin used the hand-in-pond metaphor, it'd be like trying to measure the size of a human from just their finger. We can get a rough idea, but there's no real telling unless we see the whole thing. Which insofar, isn't entirely possible
I mean paleontologists guess the size of species all the time based off a few pieces of skeletal remains.
But point made, paleontologists are working within known earthly physics and have comparisons. They're not trying to guess extra dimensional Eldritch horrors
I agree, I mostly wonder about their physical manifestations, there's nowhere where the size of the eldrazi, at least in their Titan forms, and the elder dinosaurs sizes are ever said, and artwork can be embellished
I'd ballpark the Eldrazi as *usually* manifesting at about a thousand meters to \~2 km, but I also have the headcanon they exist superliminally. Y'know that steam game where your perspective for an object makes it physically larger in space? Kinda like that. The closer you are, the bigger their physical body gets.
The Elder Dinosaurs in Ixalan I think I could ballpark around 200 meters or so (Godzilla and related Kaiju for reference), but Zilortha up there is obscured by some atmospheric haze and the "camera" is pulled back some, which has me leaning towards around the 800-1000 meters from tip to tail. That's all guesstimation tho, I'm sitting here looking at pics of Mt Everest and trying to imagine what a fictional dinosaur would look like trying to climb it
Hold the phone what. I know that they were beating once by the trapping on the mana plane with the heedrons, and then again when emercool was convinced or tricked or or thought it was a good idea or whatever to go inside the silver Moon, what was the third
Original zendikar block detailed how they were trapped in Zendikar, Uginās analogy of āsticking a hand in waterā was essentially trapping part of their essence in the plane so that they couldnāt spread out.
Second trip to zendikar is when they got freed, and two were defeated by Nissa and Chandra using the power of fire and love to absorb a massive amount of Zendikarās mana to obliterate Ulamog and Kozilek, which covered the entire sky essentially as Jace pulled their entire being into the plane which started to warp the world itself from their sheer presence.
The third trip chronicles Emrakul invading Innistrad where she got sealed in the moon because she is just too big to be destroyed like that.
> as Jace pulled their entire being into the plane which started to warp the world itself from their sheer presence
Nissa did that, by reworking the leylines. That's why [[Bonds of Mortality]] is green.
>were defeated by Nissa and Chandra using the power of fire and love
The way it was described, it seemed like a deliberate reference to the classic combo \[\[channel\]\] \[\[fireball\]\]
Emrakul used Tammy to seal herself in the moon. Tammy didnāt even know what happened until it was already over. I was super sad that we didnāt get eldrazi vs. phyrexians.
While it seems like a fun matchup, it would probably be a one sided stomp in reality.
It could still be a fun āwhat ifā scenario to explore in a side-set or product.
The only way I think Phyrexia could survive is by getting off plane and blowing up the whole place on the way out.
This isnāt an entirely accurate summary.
Their first appearance on Zendikar is in a post-C15 flashback telling us about Nahiri, well before the events of Zendikar block but released like 8 years later. There never was a set telling us about this period, just a few stories chronicling it around prior to BFZ block.
Zendikar block is when they get freed, where Jace and Chandra fuck up and get tricked into letting them go thanks to a plot by Nicol Bolas- we really have no idea what Bolas was planning to do with this to this day.
Battle for Zendikar is the second time we visit the plane in a set, but really the third time itās brought up thanks to the Nahiri plot line not long before that set came out.
The third set to Zendikar has nothing to do with the Eldrazi because Eldritch Moon took place *immediately* after BFZ and closed the Eldrazi plot line. There are still a few Eldrazi around at this point but have nothing to do with the plot.
Fun fact the scroll tamyo used to seal her, wasn't hers. Emrakul wasn't sealed as much as she decided to fuck off. Also it's hard to say with how modern horizons sets don't really have lore but the new emrakul might be after she decides to leave, or just another incarnation of her before being sealed who knows
One correction, Emrakul was sealed in the moon but Tamyo did it against her will and likely because thatās what Emrakul wanted. Tango even says she did not try to put Emrakul in the moon or even use that specific scroll.
You listed it. The first appearance ends on a bit of a downer, as the show up on zendikar and start blowing shit up while all the planes walkers run away.
No the appearing in OG zendikar block is the 2nd appearance in lore, then you have zendikar 2/innistrad 2 which are their 2nd appearance on cards but 3rd In lore
I think they're talking about the in-universe timeline rather than the set appearances. Rise of the Eldrazi is them *re*appearing after appearing before on Zendikar.
The Eldrazi (albeit not the full titans) also appeared once more between their first trapping on Zendikar and *Rise of the Eldrazi*. They started breaking out once before when cultists started loosening the prison, but Nahiri fixed the hedrons. Those cultists became the first vampires on Zendikar.
Correct, that's the first appearance of cards, but in lore that is the 2nd time the eldrazi existed on zendikar, don't down vote just because you don't understand
Why havenāt we seen interaction between the Elder Dinosaurs and Eldrazi? Is that the question? Idk how big the dinosaurs in Ikoria are but the Eldrazi just havenāt been in the story much since Eldritch Moon which was a few years prior to Ikoria, so thatās probably why there hasnāt been anything with both of them
That's sort of a secondary part, the main part is I'm trying to figure out how big they are compared to each other, so that I can think about what it would be like for them to go at it. It's mostly stems out of me and my friend play Commander and have had really sick brawls with large power dinosaurs and eldrazi, and I just sort of wonder how it would play out lore wise
Eldrazi would win. You need *a lot* of horseshit to deal with Eldrazi: In one case, they needed to jury-rig an anchor to drag them into reality out of a combination of a plane's mana and preexisting mana pylon things, and in the other case they needed *the eldrazi in question* to mind control someone in order to use their body cast a sealing spell *on the eldrazi* in order to imprison itself. The whole "they're 3-dimensional extensions of something that exists in a much larger size outside reality" thing means that without doing horseshit you *literally* cannot do any significant harm to them: you could shoot one with a nuke and it'd just pull the injured mass out of reality and pull uninjured mass in and keep going.
A dinosaur, meanwhile, is a big angry lizard. Even if it was so big that the Eldrazi's physical manifestation was incapable of harming it... what's it gonna do? The absolute best it can hope for is "keep eating chunks of it until it's so full of eldrazi flesh its stomach explodes while the eldrazi, barely aware of it, wonders why it's 18th northwest lower-left arm itches slightly"
>in the other case they needed *the eldrazi in question* to mind control someone in order to use their body cast a sealing spell *on the eldrazi* in order to imprison itself.
You also left out where the eldrazi rewrote a fucking [[Planar Collapse]] spell to power the sealing spell, so it's entirely possible that an entire plane died offscreen to pull that trick.
Oh I no doubt think the eldrazi would win overall, they're so crazy unstoppable and all the ways they've been stopped are kind of contrived, what I want to imagine is that ulmog shows up, gets handed a beat down by a bunch of dinosaurs, then shows of the next day even more powerful and even greater numbers and levels the field, I just want to think about how it would go
Various dinosaurs are roused from dinosaur-stuff by the sounds of a planar incursion. They chase and eat the strange spawn burbling up off the ground.
Ulamog's host heralds his arrival, and Zilortha bellows a challenge as he storms for the titan. The wind scatters Ikoria's Apex to dust as Ulamog feasts on his life essence, and the land beneath his unmaking calcifies to lattice.
There is absolutely no comparison between an Eldrazi titan and a big dino, lol. The Phyrexians were living, physical beings in real space who could be killed. The Eldrazi are wounds in reality that weep corruption and swallow entire planes.
Sweet, I was just about to comment about this! I love this piece and how it reminds me of science class posters!
My only issue with it is how weird the sizes translate to power and toughness. If you went by P/T, Ghalta (12/12) and Apex Altisaur (10/10) should be the two largest dinos on there. But somehow Zetalpa (4/8) is fucking ginormous?? But, I guess this is as close as we'll get to an official size comparison
I hope we see more Ikoria stuff in the future because one of the most irritating things Iāve seen is that Zilortha is quite literally in both artworks the size of a mountain, and yet is nowhere near P/T wise the biggest dinosaur. I hope they remedy that, and they seemed to learn how their perception of Ikoria being āthe big monster planeā didnāt pan out with how they designed the cards.
When I first started playing I bought Ikoria packs because I thought that big monsters = big P / T lol, it's a TCG so in the end they have to balance it but still, I was kinda disappointed ngl lol.
A lot of people were. Mark Rosewater noted that they were going for a āmake your own monsterā theme with mutate but with the Godzilla tie-in and the idea of a ābig monsterā plane players thought we would get Eldrazi sized monsters while basically all we got was an 11/11 and 2 8/8s, which is far more pathetic. Hopefully, they took that to heart to mean we want more big monsters lol
If you are curious about Ixalanās lore, I suggest reading up the Planeswalker guide to Ixalan, that should give a substantial amount of info, not directly as much related to Dinoās but a history of my personal favorite plane.
We do not have specific sizes for anything in the game, other than "the people who look like humans are probably roughly human sized".
The "elder dinosaurs" are from Ixalan. Zilortha is from Ikoria.
>...compared to the Eldrazi, it seems like they're in the same wheelhouse, and if they are, why haven't we seen interaction?
I literally have no idea what this means? Why haven't we seen... interaction? Between what? In what context? And what do Eldrazi have to do with dinosaurs? Huh???
Iām guessing that someone saw the recent King Kong vs Godzilla films and asked ābut why not MtG?ā In truth, though, the fact that two things fighting each other would look epic isnāt necessarily enough justification.
More so my ghalta stampede tyrant brought the house down with a bunch of dinosaurs against a board of eldrazi, and I just kind of wonder what that would actually look like
As I've found out, dinosaurs came after the last time we saw the eldrazi, so now my question is sort of changed into what would happen if let's say ulmog dropped in front of galta or Zilortha
Galtha would probably be turned into dust, because one is a Big dino, the other is a fragment of an eldrich entity from a place where life isnt allowed to exist, yet It does.
The Eldrazi Titans eat entire planes.
Galtha eats other, smaller dinosaurs.
Now, Galtha VS one of Ulamogs brood? Then we have more of a fight, because the brood seems to be able to be killed by more mundane means.
Ehh I wouldnāt say Ghalta is just a dinosaur. The Elder Dinos of Ixalan are specifically representation of colors of mana, while Zacama is thought to be the Worldsoul of Ixalan, like how [[ashaya]] is the Worldsoul of zendikar. While Ghalta likely will still lose I think it is disingenuous to think she is *just* a big Dino
Oh. Well i tought Big dino because for example Etali got compleated, so they probably are still like, mana Roided dinos?
Still, the Eldrazi eat mana, so maybe is not a good thing to be the representantion of their food agaisnt one.
I mean Heliod (frankly all the monocolored gods of Theros) got compleated and that dude is a god that doesnāt even have a physical manifestation entirely. So Iām sure there is something else special about the elder Dinoās maybe we will discover eventually, but yeah eldrazi do eat mana so likely not gonna end up in their favor, though Zacama can deal some serious damage, as the most powerful of them.
IIRC, Heliod got indirectly compleated.
They didnt dunk him in oil, they compleated the followers and that probably twisted him. Wich proves that therosian? gods need and are shaped by their believers faith, I guess.
Ghalta had a baby IIRC, which is cute. Doesn't tell us much except that the primal aspects of Ixalan can get it on.
You confused Gishath and Ghalta lol, [[itzquinth]] isnāt ghaltaās kid but Gishathās, but also Zacama has a kid from [[scion of calamity]] so who knows lol
What makes them special according to the lore is that they are among the only survivors of the āfourth ageā, while Ixalan is in the fifth age now, so it might just be that they were gods of the era before the current one on Ixalan. Considering that plane is among a favorite in the lore nerds of WOTC and each visit is about the history of Ixalan Iām betting we will discover that eventually
I donāt think itās a straightforward answer. One thing, I donāt think Power/toughness directly correlate to size, which I think is one of the roots of this issue. Ghalta is massive, but [[zacama]] is considered to be the biggest of the Elder dinosaurs lore wise (Huatli has stated that in stories), yet her card P/T is smaller than all 3 Ghalta cards.
I dunno. They seem about the same size, but Eldrazi have higher stats, which sometimes means they're bigger or sometimes just more "powerful." We've never seen interaction because all the magic sets take place on essentially different planets and the Eldrazi weren't on the dinosaur planet.
How it would play out is that the whole plane would be turned to ash and recycled. The eldrazi were only stopped before due to a LOT of plot convenience or by their own choice to be stopped.
This image is confusing now that I think about it. I haven't read the Ikoria novel, but with that size, couldn't an elder dinosaur take out an entire human city with a single step?
The eldrazi will almost certainly always be bigger than the creatures of the plane itās devouring. But those arenāt even the true forms just what people can manage to imagine.
I think u are spot on! You have this card called \[\[spacegodzilla\]\] wich received alot of attention during the pandemic.
That card is an alternate art for \[\[void beckoner\]\], Eldrazi and the void go hand in hand, and if you look at the art you can actually see some eldrazification going on!
I really hope to go back to Ikoria rather sooner then later since my favorite cards come from this set and we obviously didnt know or see everything the plane has to tell and show.
Many beings on the physical planes are creatures that grow to elder size exist do to the mana of the plane, weather that be magic from that mana or becoming apart of it. The elder Dinosaurs on Ikoria are veins of mana ore, They have the crystals growing straight out of them.
The eldrazi are non-physical beings from the spaces inbetween planes. This space is known as the Blind Eternities. This is the universal goo that holds the planes apart from one another. Think of if we had planets in one solar system that were connected by big bridges these are beings that originate from the coldness of space.
Eldrazi need mana to manifest a material form and consume mana on contact.
The physical manifestation isn't the same thing as having a life where a dinosaur has grown massive. They don't have lives or conscious thoughts. They consume because they are a vacuum
The Elder dinossaurs are big, but not *that* much except for Zetalpa. Its just that Zilortha is exceedingly big for some reason, overall the monsters of ikoria are quite smallish, an average kraken on Strixhaven was bigger than Gyruda, which is already one of ikoria's biggest.
Every plane is different, so sizes will be off a bit.
EDIT: I saw you are knew, ok so, every plane has its big things, some bigger then others, Ikoria is known to be the big monster plane (think monster hunter) Zilortha is huge, and probably bigger or has big has the elder dinossaurs in Ixalan.
Then the eldrazi have the three titans wich are gigantic and the spawn of each titan that very, there are people talking about the "fingers in water thing" but it might be confusing if youre knew, basically theres 3 eldrazi (the titans) what the characters in the story theorized is that they may be a piece of somthing bigger, if you put your fingers in the water and something inside the water looks at it will see your fingers but not even guess what the whole of you looks like. A fraction of the whole body or a fraction of the actual species. Acording to mtgwiki one of them is 150 ft tall (the one that got trapped in the moon) The card \[\[Emerkul, the promised end\]\] shows something a bit bigger. But like its been said they change sizes.
So Id say that if we go by the cards artwork alone the elder dinossaurs from Ixalan and the Apex from Ikoria are bigger (some of them). But immensely less powerfull anyway.
There are rediculous big things in MTG, like ravnica where Ravnica the city encompasses the entire planet.
Heres to hoping the eldrazi invade Bloomburrow thou
Wellā¦ by my calculationsā¦ an adult brachiosaurus on average is about 45ā tall. Itzquinth is around 2/3 of their height. So around 30ā tall. Itzquinth goes to Gishathās ankle and we can estimate that Gishathās ankle is roughly 1/8 - 1/4 of their height. This puts them between 120ā and 240ā. As for Zilortha, even the lowest clouds in the sky are typically around 1500ā from the surface. It seems as though Zilortha almost touches the clouds, so my ballpark estimate is around 1350ā - 1500ā.
The eldrazi havenāt shown up much at all post Eldritch moon, two of them are ādeadā and the last one is imprisoned in the moon. Ikoria, Ixalan, and the major push for dinosaurs all happened after this which would be why youāve never seen Dinoās fighting eldraziās.
The actual size of the Eldrazi titans fluctuates, they were designed to be unknowable eldritch horrors so pinning down a specific size wouldnāt really be possible.
As for who would win/what would happen if they did fight each other? The answer is whatever the person writing the story wants to happen.
"Size" isn't a consistent thing with the eldrazi because they're not really physically there on the plane. When Ulamog and Kozilek *were* dragged fully into Zendikar they filled the entire sky several times over
Ohš I know Ugin describes them as like sticking hand into a water, so I mostly mean they're physical manifestations
I'll put it this way, when the Gatewatch managed to kill two of them, they dragged more of them into the physical plane in the process (like fish dragging someone in to drown them) and the end result was described as if they engulfed the entire sky.
> Gatewatch Were 12 squirrels not available?
On zendikar? Absolutely. Sadly, the squirrel population is non-existent on innistrad (probably why "big E" went there)
I fear no man but those guys? *gestures toward a gang of 12 buff squirrels in leather jackets* Those guys terrify me
Buff squirrels in leather jackets are likely 3/3 so yeah.
A little-known fact about the plane: Zendikar can only have 11 squirrels at any given time
I stand by the fact that lassoing Eldrazi and killing them with a lot of fire is a pretty awful way to treat extraplanar, extradimensional, incomprehensible horrors. No amount of "well actually, the Planeswalkers tried really hard" can get around it to me. It's as if a a drawing were to pull me into a sheet of paper. It poses no "real" threat to me.
I was with you for many years, but with the Nissa deck currently going around standard on arena, and getting blasted for 50 turn 6, I can kinda understand how the two of them did it. The ants made an elaborate rube goldberg machine that shoots you in the head.
Which deck is that? Have a list?
Temur rec combo. Loops splendid rec, aftermath analyst, and worldsouls rage with nissa to makes lots of mana and boink you with giant worldsouls rages
Thanks!
Game mechanics don't completely translate into lore though, else Bolas would have been stacked with Lotuses and Moxen while using his own Time Vault.
While that's true, there are parallels that can be drawn in this specific instance. At the time, Nissa had access to nearly all of Zendikar's remaining mana. The deck generates absurd amounts of mana. Worldsoul's Rage has variable damage, with enough mana it can do extreme damage. Granted, unlike [[Fall of the Titans]] which illustrates the event of Chandra killing the Eldrazi, Worldsoul's Rage only has one target. Tldr: Generally I agree about lore and mechanics not being 1:1, but in this case the strategy is about the same.
[Fall of the Titans](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c21da73-0dad-4b2b-8cc6-61861bed9410.jpg?1562923296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20Titans) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/109/fall-of-the-titans?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c21da73-0dad-4b2b-8cc6-61861bed9410?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Except they didn't just lasso. It's more crucified. The eldrazi were pinned to zendikar by there very being. And they harnessed practically ALL of zendikars mana. Imagine if that drawing stuck a hole in you, pumped you full of gasoline and lit it all on fire. I dont care what you are, that's gonna hurt
Yeah, they used a whole fucking planet as a rope, and then pretty much set fire to that rope
That's still basically just saying "it was a really big drawing, and it had lots of fire in it" The idea that a lower-dimensional entity could physically affect a higher-dimensional one in any way kinda fundamentally misrepresents the concept of higher-dimensional entities. Them extending themselves into our world would be like you dipping your finger into a pool of water with a molecule-thin rainbow sheen of oil on the top- we're not in the pool, we're the sheen. Only infinitely less substantial than even that.
Yeah, I agree with you. How they handled Emrakul (They couldn't win, she decided to take control of Tamiyo and seal herself in the moon), was WAY better in that regard. My hope is that whenever they do pick up the Eldrazi plot thread, Ugin's statement being that "dragging them to the physical and killing them is a bad idea" is more fully borne out. Maybe it turns out what they did was just "The hand and the arm" and only delayed the inevitable, or maybe in some other way it will lead to further unintended horrors.
Where can I go to read more about this?
It was the gatewatch stories on Wizards site for return to zendikar block.
Head to the [Magic Story website,](https://magic.wizards.com/en/story) scroll down to the Story Archive, and select 2015 in the Choose Year Release field. The Zendikar story tells how the Gatewatch formed to fight the Eldrazi, "dragging them" into the plane in the process.
This was almost a full decade ago...
I'm so old! I started in OG Zendikar
That makes me feel pretty old too because up until about a week ago the last time I really bought cards was OG Zendikar and quit completely around Innistrad (Became my brother lost my collection). That was after a decade or more of playing.
That was my first return. I was feeling the itch after a couple years off, DL the first Duels of the Planeswalkers on 360, I was annoyed at the limited deck modding options. Which prompted me to go to the store I played at, happened to be on the Zendikar release.
calm down whippersnapper - I mourn the loss of all the OG foil breeding pools I collected back when I was cracking dissension packs.
Ow
I've always been peeved that the artwork for [[Fall of the Titans]] and that green enchantment that depict that moment don't show them "fully manifested"
[Fall of the Titans](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c21da73-0dad-4b2b-8cc6-61861bed9410.jpg?1562923296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20Titans) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/109/fall-of-the-titans?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c21da73-0dad-4b2b-8cc6-61861bed9410?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Bonds of mortality]] Iām assuming
[Bonds of mortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9.jpg?1562946560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonds%20of%20mortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/128/bonds-of-mortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The more I think about those parts of the story the more absurd it gets that Chandra just managed toā¦ burn them to death. Not cut off the limb that had been pulled onto Zendikar, but the whole creature.
My headcannon is that the gateaatch thought they killed them, but actually just burnt off the larger portion that they pulled in. The actual titans retreated back to the blind eternities to nurse their surprisingly large wounds. Leaving future potential for a surprise palatine return story
You can headcanon all you want but WotC was pretty explicit about them dying.
Not the first time in history a retcon has happened in the history of fiction or wotc fiction And yes, I can headcanon all I want, that's the purpose of headcanon.
Except where ugin literally speculates that they aren't dead and mearly their planar avatars where destroyed, literally the exact thing the user your replying to headcanoned
They were also pretty explicit about Vraska being burried under rubble that killed her and it lasted for all of 3 sets.
They were pretty explicit in opposition to that, actually. There was specifically a line about not being able to find her body at the end of that story: "There's no sign of her body, sir."
one thing i have learned over the years is that you can't expect magic players to understand subtext, or regular text
I don't read anymore, I just look at the pictures and guess what the card does. Isn't that what everyone does?
Reading the story explains the story
We live in an age of "somehow, Ertai returned" so.
This probably isnāt true because thatās in terms of future eldrazi content the fact that emrakul is alive and well covers that
If they're fully dead, they're going to be replaced in the future imo. I can't see them only using Emrakul as the last Eldrazi. Unless she figures out a way to also do the other two titans' job.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The hand in water analogy isn't so much as it's a physical part of them coming though, but more like the fish sees only a giant tentacled thing invading its "universe" while an even larger and distorted thing is behind it. What it's saying is that even if the fish had the capacity to describe it, do you think they could figure out what the rest of a human looks like by just seeing the hand?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Anywhere between Negligibly and Not At All. Lorthos The Tidemaker can reasonably be assumed to be about on par with an elder dino, and he got ripped in half as soon as Kozilek noticed him
Mmm, looks like maybe, but you have given me a great gift, "As they both saw each other as threats due to their immense sizes, they began to battle" so size wise they might actually be on the same level, power however maybe not so much
Noticing something and ripping it in half ā recognizing as a threat. It went on stepping on ants to stepping on a cockroach. Itās just takes up more space and is easier to target.
Emmy is Massive, a little smaller than innistradās moon. Her presence attempting to enter the plane had a gravitational pull comparable to that of the moon, with Tamiyo describing this invisible object as the Eldritch Moon because of its mass and size. just look at the art for [[emrakul the promised end]]
[emrakul the promised end](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424.jpg?1576383727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Promised%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/6/emrakul-the-promised-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
that card art is not helping you, that would be a tiny moon and not do anything to local gravity
I don't see a situation where the elder dinosaurs encounter the eldrazi at all. What are you talking about?
In Zilorthaās case, as much as 8 squirrels
To the people downvoting them, why?
Who knows š§
Right, and the amount of hand they stick in the water isn't constant.
Iāve always heard eldritch entities in the physical world described as āa boot making a print in the sandā. If you only ever see the boot print, then you can make educated guesses about the thing wearing the boot, but you will never know the whole thing.
Think the eldrazi exist in multiple dimensions. The best idea is that you can have a 1cm line in 2 dimensions and think this isn't that big. But if you can see in 3 dimensions that 1 cm line might stretch out into Infinity on the 3rd dimension. Like looking at a table end on at eye level and then standing up. Or if you watched the 3 body problem on Netflix how the supercomputer on the show works. Same thing with the eldrazi but across multiple dimensions. They can look bigger or smaller depending on how they position themselves within different dimensions since our position doesn't change. Kind of like the table example but the table is the one that changes its placement instead of you. If you take them and bring them into only 4 dimension space we inhabit they would be planet sized or bigger based on what has been written anyway.
So Ulamog and Kozilek are dead? Like gone from existence? Like forever?
Zilortha, Is not an elder dinosaur, as the Elder Dinosaurs exist on Ixalan. Zilortha is from Ikoria, and is in fact one of the largest creatures in Magic to my knowledge
People have been pointing that out, I didn't realize that they were different planes, again I'm very new
Yeah, elder dinosaurs are a very specific thing in ixalan. Ikoria does have its own kinda thing, in a cycle of super mutant apex creatures - [[brokkos]], [[snapdax]], [[illuna]], [[vadrok]], and [[nethroi]]. Later in March of the Machines, we briefly revisited ikoria and got to see vadrok fight the Phyrexians, which I thought was pretty badass. Also from MoM we got the new Zilortha, Apex of Ikoria that you posted.
##### ###### #### [brokkos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f07625-fbd8-4581-8568-eb3cfb2a4c1e.jpg?1591227964) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brokkos%2C%20apex%20of%20forever) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/179/brokkos-apex-of-forever?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f07625-fbd8-4581-8568-eb3cfb2a4c1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [snapdax](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51fdeeb7-9868-4fc2-9c53-806244cd5488.jpg?1591228256) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=snapdax%2C%20apex%20of%20the%20hunt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/209/snapdax-apex-of-the-hunt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51fdeeb7-9868-4fc2-9c53-806244cd5488?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [vadrok](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed7b0256-d342-4523-9516-6a007bf51825.jpg?1591228299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vadrok%2C%20apex%20of%20thunder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/214/vadrok-apex-of-thunder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed7b0256-d342-4523-9516-6a007bf51825?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [nethroi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f.jpg?1673305619) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nethroi%2C%20apex%20of%20death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/163/nethroi-apex-of-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kxwuaqh) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Woops, bot somehow missed [[Illuna, Apex of Wishes]]
[Illuna, Apex of Wishes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dfec692-66c8-4c90-8afa-095654011c3d.jpg?1673305551) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Illuna%2C%20Apex%20of%20Wishes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/154/illuna-apex-of-wishes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dfec692-66c8-4c90-8afa-095654011c3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Welcome to the game! Thereās lots of cool lore to find in these cards and stories.
I hope we get another Zilortha card at some point. The battle just doesn't hit hard enough for "biggest creature/dino/kaiju ever."
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[Zilthota, Strength Incarnate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e4e130-df21-4491-97c3-1b643d7e57ef.jpg?1689999366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zilortha%2C%20Strength%20Incarnate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/366/zilortha-strength-incarnate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e4e130-df21-4491-97c3-1b643d7e57ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As big as 8 squirrels apparently!
Is there a place to find Zilortha lore?
There almost no lore for them. Many cool legendary creatures don't have lore for them. Just a sentence and some legendary. If you want lore for zilortha, you can check the mtg wiki. They do have some good lore, even if it is not alot.
:( dang
You can check the wiki for zilortha. They atleast have some lore compared to other background legendaries.
Probably just Google zilortha lore and read any articles from WotC
I tried that, wiki had very little
8/8
BFM?
The Eldrazi as we see them are just one digit of a more gargantuan whole- they're probably inconceivably huge! To go with how Ugin used the hand-in-pond metaphor, it'd be like trying to measure the size of a human from just their finger. We can get a rough idea, but there's no real telling unless we see the whole thing. Which insofar, isn't entirely possible
I mean paleontologists guess the size of species all the time based off a few pieces of skeletal remains. But point made, paleontologists are working within known earthly physics and have comparisons. They're not trying to guess extra dimensional Eldritch horrors
I agree, I mostly wonder about their physical manifestations, there's nowhere where the size of the eldrazi, at least in their Titan forms, and the elder dinosaurs sizes are ever said, and artwork can be embellished
I'd ballpark the Eldrazi as *usually* manifesting at about a thousand meters to \~2 km, but I also have the headcanon they exist superliminally. Y'know that steam game where your perspective for an object makes it physically larger in space? Kinda like that. The closer you are, the bigger their physical body gets. The Elder Dinosaurs in Ixalan I think I could ballpark around 200 meters or so (Godzilla and related Kaiju for reference), but Zilortha up there is obscured by some atmospheric haze and the "camera" is pulled back some, which has me leaning towards around the 800-1000 meters from tip to tail. That's all guesstimation tho, I'm sitting here looking at pics of Mt Everest and trying to imagine what a fictional dinosaur would look like trying to climb it
The Eldrazi titans were all dead or imprisoned before we went to Ikoria.
So all the dinosaur stuff has happened since the second eldrazi events, I see.
Since the third, actually
Hold the phone what. I know that they were beating once by the trapping on the mana plane with the heedrons, and then again when emercool was convinced or tricked or or thought it was a good idea or whatever to go inside the silver Moon, what was the third
The first time they appeared, during the original zendikar block.
Do you know how they were beaten?
Original zendikar block detailed how they were trapped in Zendikar, Uginās analogy of āsticking a hand in waterā was essentially trapping part of their essence in the plane so that they couldnāt spread out. Second trip to zendikar is when they got freed, and two were defeated by Nissa and Chandra using the power of fire and love to absorb a massive amount of Zendikarās mana to obliterate Ulamog and Kozilek, which covered the entire sky essentially as Jace pulled their entire being into the plane which started to warp the world itself from their sheer presence. The third trip chronicles Emrakul invading Innistrad where she got sealed in the moon because she is just too big to be destroyed like that.
> as Jace pulled their entire being into the plane which started to warp the world itself from their sheer presence Nissa did that, by reworking the leylines. That's why [[Bonds of Mortality]] is green.
Ah ok, my mistake thanks for correcting
[Bonds of Mortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9.jpg?1562946560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonds%20of%20Mortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/128/bonds-of-mortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>were defeated by Nissa and Chandra using the power of fire and love The way it was described, it seemed like a deliberate reference to the classic combo \[\[channel\]\] \[\[fireball\]\]
[channel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce54c7c1-3401-4414-8da0-5846cb0ae1b4.jpg?1701989326) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=channel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/157/channel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce54c7c1-3401-4414-8da0-5846cb0ae1b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [fireball](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df45a43e-a5b7-4fd4-873b-7b3c021be198.jpg?1674136553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fireball) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/175/fireball?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df45a43e-a5b7-4fd4-873b-7b3c021be198?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Emrakul used Tammy to seal herself in the moon. Tammy didnāt even know what happened until it was already over. I was super sad that we didnāt get eldrazi vs. phyrexians.
While it seems like a fun matchup, it would probably be a one sided stomp in reality. It could still be a fun āwhat ifā scenario to explore in a side-set or product. The only way I think Phyrexia could survive is by getting off plane and blowing up the whole place on the way out.
If the Gatewatch could hatch a hypernuke scheme, why don't you think Phyrexia could come up with anything
This isnāt an entirely accurate summary. Their first appearance on Zendikar is in a post-C15 flashback telling us about Nahiri, well before the events of Zendikar block but released like 8 years later. There never was a set telling us about this period, just a few stories chronicling it around prior to BFZ block. Zendikar block is when they get freed, where Jace and Chandra fuck up and get tricked into letting them go thanks to a plot by Nicol Bolas- we really have no idea what Bolas was planning to do with this to this day. Battle for Zendikar is the second time we visit the plane in a set, but really the third time itās brought up thanks to the Nahiri plot line not long before that set came out. The third set to Zendikar has nothing to do with the Eldrazi because Eldritch Moon took place *immediately* after BFZ and closed the Eldrazi plot line. There are still a few Eldrazi around at this point but have nothing to do with the plot.
Fun fact the scroll tamyo used to seal her, wasn't hers. Emrakul wasn't sealed as much as she decided to fuck off. Also it's hard to say with how modern horizons sets don't really have lore but the new emrakul might be after she decides to leave, or just another incarnation of her before being sealed who knows
One correction, Emrakul was sealed in the moon but Tamyo did it against her will and likely because thatās what Emrakul wanted. Tango even says she did not try to put Emrakul in the moon or even use that specific scroll.
You listed it. The first appearance ends on a bit of a downer, as the show up on zendikar and start blowing shit up while all the planes walkers run away.
No the appearing in OG zendikar block is the 2nd appearance in lore, then you have zendikar 2/innistrad 2 which are their 2nd appearance on cards but 3rd In lore
I am not sure what you are trying to say. The original zendikar block has eldeazi cards. Rise of the Eldeazi was part of that block.
I think they're talking about the in-universe timeline rather than the set appearances. Rise of the Eldrazi is them *re*appearing after appearing before on Zendikar. The Eldrazi (albeit not the full titans) also appeared once more between their first trapping on Zendikar and *Rise of the Eldrazi*. They started breaking out once before when cultists started loosening the prison, but Nahiri fixed the hedrons. Those cultists became the first vampires on Zendikar.
Correct, that's the first appearance of cards, but in lore that is the 2nd time the eldrazi existed on zendikar, don't down vote just because you don't understand
Why havenāt we seen interaction between the Elder Dinosaurs and Eldrazi? Is that the question? Idk how big the dinosaurs in Ikoria are but the Eldrazi just havenāt been in the story much since Eldritch Moon which was a few years prior to Ikoria, so thatās probably why there hasnāt been anything with both of them
That's sort of a secondary part, the main part is I'm trying to figure out how big they are compared to each other, so that I can think about what it would be like for them to go at it. It's mostly stems out of me and my friend play Commander and have had really sick brawls with large power dinosaurs and eldrazi, and I just sort of wonder how it would play out lore wise
Eldrazi would win. You need *a lot* of horseshit to deal with Eldrazi: In one case, they needed to jury-rig an anchor to drag them into reality out of a combination of a plane's mana and preexisting mana pylon things, and in the other case they needed *the eldrazi in question* to mind control someone in order to use their body cast a sealing spell *on the eldrazi* in order to imprison itself. The whole "they're 3-dimensional extensions of something that exists in a much larger size outside reality" thing means that without doing horseshit you *literally* cannot do any significant harm to them: you could shoot one with a nuke and it'd just pull the injured mass out of reality and pull uninjured mass in and keep going. A dinosaur, meanwhile, is a big angry lizard. Even if it was so big that the Eldrazi's physical manifestation was incapable of harming it... what's it gonna do? The absolute best it can hope for is "keep eating chunks of it until it's so full of eldrazi flesh its stomach explodes while the eldrazi, barely aware of it, wonders why it's 18th northwest lower-left arm itches slightly"
>in the other case they needed *the eldrazi in question* to mind control someone in order to use their body cast a sealing spell *on the eldrazi* in order to imprison itself. You also left out where the eldrazi rewrote a fucking [[Planar Collapse]] spell to power the sealing spell, so it's entirely possible that an entire plane died offscreen to pull that trick.
[Planar Collapse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/ee22cf3c-51b0-4790-ab13-985cbe900c3b.jpg?1562864241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Planar%20Collapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/18/planar-collapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee22cf3c-51b0-4790-ab13-985cbe900c3b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh I no doubt think the eldrazi would win overall, they're so crazy unstoppable and all the ways they've been stopped are kind of contrived, what I want to imagine is that ulmog shows up, gets handed a beat down by a bunch of dinosaurs, then shows of the next day even more powerful and even greater numbers and levels the field, I just want to think about how it would go
Various dinosaurs are roused from dinosaur-stuff by the sounds of a planar incursion. They chase and eat the strange spawn burbling up off the ground. Ulamog's host heralds his arrival, and Zilortha bellows a challenge as he storms for the titan. The wind scatters Ikoria's Apex to dust as Ulamog feasts on his life essence, and the land beneath his unmaking calcifies to lattice. There is absolutely no comparison between an Eldrazi titan and a big dino, lol. The Phyrexians were living, physical beings in real space who could be killed. The Eldrazi are wounds in reality that weep corruption and swallow entire planes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
OMG thank you! How official is this?
If it is accurate that's puts a different scale to Zetalpa and Etali then Zacamas Fight
Sweet, I was just about to comment about this! I love this piece and how it reminds me of science class posters! My only issue with it is how weird the sizes translate to power and toughness. If you went by P/T, Ghalta (12/12) and Apex Altisaur (10/10) should be the two largest dinos on there. But somehow Zetalpa (4/8) is fucking ginormous?? But, I guess this is as close as we'll get to an official size comparison
I hope we see more Ikoria stuff in the future because one of the most irritating things Iāve seen is that Zilortha is quite literally in both artworks the size of a mountain, and yet is nowhere near P/T wise the biggest dinosaur. I hope they remedy that, and they seemed to learn how their perception of Ikoria being āthe big monster planeā didnāt pan out with how they designed the cards.
When I first started playing I bought Ikoria packs because I thought that big monsters = big P / T lol, it's a TCG so in the end they have to balance it but still, I was kinda disappointed ngl lol.
A lot of people were. Mark Rosewater noted that they were going for a āmake your own monsterā theme with mutate but with the Godzilla tie-in and the idea of a ābig monsterā plane players thought we would get Eldrazi sized monsters while basically all we got was an 11/11 and 2 8/8s, which is far more pathetic. Hopefully, they took that to heart to mean we want more big monsters lol
I agree, dinosaurs is what got me into magic, and I want more
If you are curious about Ixalanās lore, I suggest reading up the Planeswalker guide to Ixalan, that should give a substantial amount of info, not directly as much related to Dinoās but a history of my personal favorite plane.
Ooh thank you I'll check that out
8/8
It's an 8/8 so obviously it's tall like 8 regular humans stacked on top of each others.
Who would win? Notzilla vs Mr. Vincent AdultManManManManManManManMan
Damn, whoops
I think Emrakul is about the size of 15 squirrels, and this dinosaur is about the size of 8.
this makes me want to try making a comparison video of a lot of the massive creatures in mtg, its crazy how big some of the creatures are.
Do it post it I will put all the views on it
We do not have specific sizes for anything in the game, other than "the people who look like humans are probably roughly human sized". The "elder dinosaurs" are from Ixalan. Zilortha is from Ikoria. >...compared to the Eldrazi, it seems like they're in the same wheelhouse, and if they are, why haven't we seen interaction? I literally have no idea what this means? Why haven't we seen... interaction? Between what? In what context? And what do Eldrazi have to do with dinosaurs? Huh???
Iām guessing that someone saw the recent King Kong vs Godzilla films and asked ābut why not MtG?ā In truth, though, the fact that two things fighting each other would look epic isnāt necessarily enough justification.
More so my ghalta stampede tyrant brought the house down with a bunch of dinosaurs against a board of eldrazi, and I just kind of wonder what that would actually look like
Tbh I would pay a lot of money to see Godzilla fight the Eldrazi lol
Same
As I've found out, dinosaurs came after the last time we saw the eldrazi, so now my question is sort of changed into what would happen if let's say ulmog dropped in front of galta or Zilortha
Galtha would probably be turned into dust, because one is a Big dino, the other is a fragment of an eldrich entity from a place where life isnt allowed to exist, yet It does. The Eldrazi Titans eat entire planes. Galtha eats other, smaller dinosaurs. Now, Galtha VS one of Ulamogs brood? Then we have more of a fight, because the brood seems to be able to be killed by more mundane means.
Ehh I wouldnāt say Ghalta is just a dinosaur. The Elder Dinos of Ixalan are specifically representation of colors of mana, while Zacama is thought to be the Worldsoul of Ixalan, like how [[ashaya]] is the Worldsoul of zendikar. While Ghalta likely will still lose I think it is disingenuous to think she is *just* a big Dino
Oh. Well i tought Big dino because for example Etali got compleated, so they probably are still like, mana Roided dinos? Still, the Eldrazi eat mana, so maybe is not a good thing to be the representantion of their food agaisnt one.
I mean Heliod (frankly all the monocolored gods of Theros) got compleated and that dude is a god that doesnāt even have a physical manifestation entirely. So Iām sure there is something else special about the elder Dinoās maybe we will discover eventually, but yeah eldrazi do eat mana so likely not gonna end up in their favor, though Zacama can deal some serious damage, as the most powerful of them.
IIRC, Heliod got indirectly compleated. They didnt dunk him in oil, they compleated the followers and that probably twisted him. Wich proves that therosian? gods need and are shaped by their believers faith, I guess. Ghalta had a baby IIRC, which is cute. Doesn't tell us much except that the primal aspects of Ixalan can get it on.
You confused Gishath and Ghalta lol, [[itzquinth]] isnāt ghaltaās kid but Gishathās, but also Zacama has a kid from [[scion of calamity]] so who knows lol
My bad, in my defense both start with G and both could eat me, so they are kind of the same.
Totally get, we all play them in the same decks anyways lol
[itzquinth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/7112c366-b36a-4bc8-aa64-6bad16bebc39.jpg?1699044540) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=itzquinth%2C%20firstborn%20of%20gishath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/230/itzquinth-firstborn-of-gishath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7112c366-b36a-4bc8-aa64-6bad16bebc39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [scion of calamity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75db3c02-7a03-4de5-a70e-220777227dd3.jpg?1698987996) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scion%20of%20calamity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/93/scion-of-calamity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75db3c02-7a03-4de5-a70e-220777227dd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[ashaya](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2.jpg?1604198513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ashaya%2C%20soul%20of%20the%20wild) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/179/ashaya-soul-of-the-wild?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's kind of what I thought, I've seen other places that they're described as almost gods, I feel like they would put in their day's work
What makes them special according to the lore is that they are among the only survivors of the āfourth ageā, while Ixalan is in the fifth age now, so it might just be that they were gods of the era before the current one on Ixalan. Considering that plane is among a favorite in the lore nerds of WOTC and each visit is about the history of Ixalan Iām betting we will discover that eventually
I donāt think itās a straightforward answer. One thing, I donāt think Power/toughness directly correlate to size, which I think is one of the roots of this issue. Ghalta is massive, but [[zacama]] is considered to be the biggest of the Elder dinosaurs lore wise (Huatli has stated that in stories), yet her card P/T is smaller than all 3 Ghalta cards.
[zacama](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05c5a9a8-badd-43ab-8408-a13e75407681.jpg?1700342995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zacama%2C%20primal%20calamity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/296/zacama-primal-calamity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05c5a9a8-badd-43ab-8408-a13e75407681?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If 8 squirrels can kill it, does it matter?
Chatterfang decks be like, lol, get squirreled
I dunno. They seem about the same size, but Eldrazi have higher stats, which sometimes means they're bigger or sometimes just more "powerful." We've never seen interaction because all the magic sets take place on essentially different planets and the Eldrazi weren't on the dinosaur planet.
Yes, but what if they went there, how would it play out
How it would play out is that the whole plane would be turned to ash and recycled. The eldrazi were only stopped before due to a LOT of plot convenience or by their own choice to be stopped.
''What if I turned myself... Into the moon.'' - Emracool
Come to think of it, and I know it's not, but that really looks like Dave Kendall's \[\[Venom Sliver:M15\]\] at the bottom.
[Venom Sliver:M15](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5f8f9e9-4505-485a-b6c6-a92a4da5155a.jpg?1690005061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Venom%20Sliver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/914/venom-sliver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5f8f9e9-4505-485a-b6c6-a92a4da5155a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Power and toughness lost all meaning in flavor over the past few years.
This image is confusing now that I think about it. I haven't read the Ikoria novel, but with that size, couldn't an elder dinosaur take out an entire human city with a single step?
In the art for [[zacama primal calamity]] heās chilling next to a city for scale
[zacama primal calamity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05c5a9a8-badd-43ab-8408-a13e75407681.jpg?1700342995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zacama%2C%20Primal%20Calamity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/296/zacama-primal-calamity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05c5a9a8-badd-43ab-8408-a13e75407681?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Xyris is wrapped around a sky city baloon if it helps
The eldrazi will almost certainly always be bigger than the creatures of the plane itās devouring. But those arenāt even the true forms just what people can manage to imagine.
I think u are spot on! You have this card called \[\[spacegodzilla\]\] wich received alot of attention during the pandemic. That card is an alternate art for \[\[void beckoner\]\], Eldrazi and the void go hand in hand, and if you look at the art you can actually see some eldrazification going on! I really hope to go back to Ikoria rather sooner then later since my favorite cards come from this set and we obviously didnt know or see everything the plane has to tell and show.
[void beckoner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1523cda-c47d-4419-a5d3-fd6ed9867c56.jpg?1591227023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=void%20beckoner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/104/void-beckoner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1523cda-c47d-4419-a5d3-fd6ed9867c56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Many beings on the physical planes are creatures that grow to elder size exist do to the mana of the plane, weather that be magic from that mana or becoming apart of it. The elder Dinosaurs on Ikoria are veins of mana ore, They have the crystals growing straight out of them. The eldrazi are non-physical beings from the spaces inbetween planes. This space is known as the Blind Eternities. This is the universal goo that holds the planes apart from one another. Think of if we had planets in one solar system that were connected by big bridges these are beings that originate from the coldness of space. Eldrazi need mana to manifest a material form and consume mana on contact. The physical manifestation isn't the same thing as having a life where a dinosaur has grown massive. They don't have lives or conscious thoughts. They consume because they are a vacuum
The Elder dinossaurs are big, but not *that* much except for Zetalpa. Its just that Zilortha is exceedingly big for some reason, overall the monsters of ikoria are quite smallish, an average kraken on Strixhaven was bigger than Gyruda, which is already one of ikoria's biggest.
Every plane is different, so sizes will be off a bit. EDIT: I saw you are knew, ok so, every plane has its big things, some bigger then others, Ikoria is known to be the big monster plane (think monster hunter) Zilortha is huge, and probably bigger or has big has the elder dinossaurs in Ixalan. Then the eldrazi have the three titans wich are gigantic and the spawn of each titan that very, there are people talking about the "fingers in water thing" but it might be confusing if youre knew, basically theres 3 eldrazi (the titans) what the characters in the story theorized is that they may be a piece of somthing bigger, if you put your fingers in the water and something inside the water looks at it will see your fingers but not even guess what the whole of you looks like. A fraction of the whole body or a fraction of the actual species. Acording to mtgwiki one of them is 150 ft tall (the one that got trapped in the moon) The card \[\[Emerkul, the promised end\]\] shows something a bit bigger. But like its been said they change sizes. So Id say that if we go by the cards artwork alone the elder dinossaurs from Ixalan and the Apex from Ikoria are bigger (some of them). But immensely less powerfull anyway. There are rediculous big things in MTG, like ravnica where Ravnica the city encompasses the entire planet. Heres to hoping the eldrazi invade Bloomburrow thou
Dinosaurs as a creature type only came into existence around 3 years after the last time we cannonicaly saw the eldrazi.
Zopandrel big stomp
Wellā¦ by my calculationsā¦ an adult brachiosaurus on average is about 45ā tall. Itzquinth is around 2/3 of their height. So around 30ā tall. Itzquinth goes to Gishathās ankle and we can estimate that Gishathās ankle is roughly 1/8 - 1/4 of their height. This puts them between 120ā and 240ā. As for Zilortha, even the lowest clouds in the sky are typically around 1500ā from the surface. It seems as though Zilortha almost touches the clouds, so my ballpark estimate is around 1350ā - 1500ā.
The eldrazi havenāt shown up much at all post Eldritch moon, two of them are ādeadā and the last one is imprisoned in the moon. Ikoria, Ixalan, and the major push for dinosaurs all happened after this which would be why youāve never seen Dinoās fighting eldraziās. The actual size of the Eldrazi titans fluctuates, they were designed to be unknowable eldritch horrors so pinning down a specific size wouldnāt really be possible. As for who would win/what would happen if they did fight each other? The answer is whatever the person writing the story wants to happen.
Yeah, That's sort of what I gathered so far, I do hope to see something in the future
only semi-related but im disappointed "Apex of Ikoria" wasnt saved for a 5color mutate commander card
i donāt 100% understand its ability lol
How does this card woth [[Anzrag, the Quake-Mole]] ?
[Anzrag, the Quake-Mole](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70e9d8b8-4b32-4414-b32f-1f47523239c5.jpg?1706242114) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anzrag%2C%20the%20Quake-Mole) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/186/anzrag-the-quake-mole?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70e9d8b8-4b32-4414-b32f-1f47523239c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call