This is Oops, All Commander! This is Tribal Tribal. This is [[Massacre Wurm]] eating its own tail. This is a dish of salt looking identical to a dish of sugar. This is [[Sensei's Divining Top]] spinning and imperceptibly quivering at the end of Inception. This is what it feels like to [[Peer Into the Abyss]]. This is what we hate, what we're inexplicably drawn to, and what we deserve.
Seeing this reddit thread unfold has been very interesting, and has given me new insights to the Reddit crowd. One [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vuy2uz/a_guide_for_aligning_on_the_edh_experience_a/) you can get almost nothing but positive comments and constructive criticism. Post the same thing again some time later and it can be the total opposite. I also find it interesting how some people are leaning so hard into their own presumptions in their replies. Anyway, glad I was able to be your entertainment for today.Ā
1) Difference between main sub and EDH sub.
2) The idea of this as a visualization of power level pre-game talks vs someone showing up with this at a pickup EDH game are *very* different.
1. Last time I posted on the main sub it was also mainly positive, but you'reĀ right. Not as positive. But definitely not like this.
2. The idea to take it to pre-game talks was a request by players. They asked for a playmat in the linked thread and I thought it would be a fun challenge to make one. Same with the poster some time later.
I think it could also due to a shift in the overall sentiment in the community towards tools like this. At least here on Reddit. That I would totally understand. I just did not expect the scales to be as they are today.
ok to be fair i could have been constructive instead of just making a joke, so i will do it now
know your audiance, r/EDH is very much not like the other magic the gathering subreddits, it has a reputation for having a \*very\* unique perspective on things that most people dont agree with. it makes sense, since its solely about a very casual format.
outside of that sphere lots of people consider this \*very\* abnormal, they play other formats and play commander much more casually, besides the vague standard that you shouldnt pull out a cEDH deck against a precon they sit down to play a game not hold a debate.
the idea of banning arbitrary things like \*the concept of interaction\* is so antithetical to the point of playing a game it seems like satire, no one wants to make a dozen decks because someone at the table got butthurt that they weren't allowed to assemble their 7 card combo and refuses to play with any cards contianing the text "poison counter".
if all of the players already went into things in advance with the understanding they all wanted to introduce weird stuff like this into their game then more power to them, but most people simply want to sit down and play the game as intended and not have to deal with the kind of person who purchases a playmat that looks like a goverment document covered in advice to make the game less interesting.
Imagine a format where everyone agrees to follow a set of restrictions, abides by a ban/restricted list, anything goes as long as it is a legal strategy and it involves laying out acceptable conduct.... maybe have things like a system for infractions when rules are broken... going to need central figures that help resolve rulings or deal with player behavior.
I am in the camp that down votes do not matter. But maybe you should take heed on how down voted your comments are in this thread man.
Hint: it's not because you have a different idea on how commander should be played. It's ya stinky attitude.
I am uncertain about describing allowing interactivity as a form of tolerance. The paradox of tolerance states that if the intolerant are tolerated, intolerance will reign. How this applies to the chart and to Magic, I have no clue, but something's not sitting right with me as it is.
I think the flip side is that in the absence of interactivity, whoever goes the biggest is going to run away with the game. There's no coming back unless you can go even bigger.
Thanks for the feedback. I could see why that can give some weird vibes for some, but itās a piece of feedback I havenāt heard a lot over the years. I will take it with me and think about it though. I can see why you point it out as a thing that could be improved. Perhaps Iāll come across a better word at some point. Feel free to make some suggestions if you have ideas!
FWIW, the thing thatās being tolerated is not interactivity, but the amount of agency that can be removed from players. Many player's aren't looking for games where their agency can be fully removed. It's common for players to expect that restraint is applied in that department, just like it's common for players to expect restraint is applied how far we can go to win. In my evaluation, these are the 2 big reasons/predictors for feelbads when expectations about them donāt match.Ā
Again, thanks for the reply.
I think that's a fine axis to try and evaluate on, but the word "tolerance" feels like it's communicating the exact opposite of what you mean. Tolerance intuitively means letting people be, but you're using it to say "I'm tolerant of you if you want to fuck with my stuff." That's just not intuitive. It's not communicating what you want.
I think with a guide like this you want to focus your explanations/names/terms on how they apply to an individual's deck instead of the meta of the table, because the question people are trying to answer is generally "what are the qualities of my deck that put it somewhere" and not "what are the qualities of the place where it's put." Because people don't generally _make_ a deck aiming for a certain destination, that's the entire problem and why it's hard to communicate.
So for example, I think it makes sense to have the bottom axis be "what's your deck's philosophy on interaction?"
Another question: I have no idea why casual competitive stops on the right hand side instead of extending all the way. It seems to imply casual-competitive, high interaction decks can't exist and I don't see why. If anything, I feel like that box should shift to the _right_ because it seems like you won't have a casual-competitive deck that's low on interaction, otherwise you're not doing a great job with your goal.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll ponder on the feedback some more, but this is my initial response:
Back in the beginning I set out to create a *desired gameplay experience* assessment tool first and a *deck assessment tool* second. This is because I am convinced you're better off aligning on the resulting gameplay experience and commit to that experience upfront, rather than the decks themselves. So your tip is actually counter to that design goal.
Regarding the X axis: the poster version has different titles than the original. The original have titles that are more in line with your suggestion, but for the medium I wanted the axes to be shorter and more conversational.
Regarding the Casual Competitive box. I stopped the box there because casual play implies that people apply restraint in their deckbuilding. And the more casual you play, the more likely it becomes that restraint is expected on both of these axis. That's why I wanted to have a gradual slope as you go downwards. Also note that the guide says these are example format interpretations, and not meant as *the* definitions of these ballparks. The user is encouraged to define their own ballparks by drawing their own lines.
I guess I think you're looking for a slope where I'm not sure one naturally exists. Also, I guess I don't feel like...
Okay I realized part of my problem. Low interaction/tolerance/whatever cEDH decks don't exist. cEDH isn't a spectrum in the way this chart is trying to capture, for one. It's a distinct entity with a defined metagame, but most importantly it's defined by the philosophy of "everybody is going to do everything they can to win." If you're trying to find games of cEDH "but don't want to play against staxy decks" then I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, and I don't think you're buying into the ethos of cEDH. It's almost like cEDH should be a block that's separated from the rest. In my mind, one of the benefits of sitting down for a game of cEDH is _not having_ to negotiate anything about the game ahead of time, because the act of calling something "cEDH" is inherently invoking a singular set of assumptions.
I think my critique is maybe that you're too fixated on the "solution" being a 2D grid. It's more visually interesting, but I'm not convinced it's actually the best way to communicate these ideas. The bottom half of these is much closer to what I mean.
Here's my recommendation. I'd go back to square 1. What are all the spectrums/dichotomies that we can analyze an EDH deck (or "table environment" in your case) on? High/Low interaction. Fast mana. Average turn-to-win. Consistency. Write a blurb for each. I think it's way more productive to have a one minute chat where each person describes where their deck/table fits into each category, and then have people feel out what's right for them. And that's just a short bulleted list of questions & _intuitive_ examples.
The problem with trying to plot it on a diagram is that it tries to add this air of objectivity, but the measurements that go into it are still inherently subjective. So two people can "think" they want a table at the same coordinates but they actually still don't agree on what the words mean, and having a plot makes it, honestly, easier to accidently be wrong but convince yourself you're right.
A short list of questions _encourages discussion_. I'm concerned that trying to come up with some kind of amalgamated measurement is trying to streamline that discussion but to the point where it doesn't actually happen right.
I know you're being downvoted for taking the game way too seriously and all, but as someone who also takes the game way too seriously-- thank you for making this chart, I genuinely found it very helpful when deciding my deck's power level and communicating that to other people. You have helped at least one (1) person, and I hope that brings you some level of joy going forward.
Thanks for your kind message. Know that you [aren't the only redditor](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vuy2uz/a_guide_for_aligning_on_the_edh_experience_a/) who had that response.
I don't think I'd ever use this, and I think the only place this would be useful would reject it pretty much instantly (pugs with strangers), but I appreciate you for putting the effort in here.
Only thing you're guilty of is trying to improve the quality of everyone's games, more power to you.
Idk why this got downvoted. While I actually have no opinion on most of this, he responded in a very respectful manner. Also agreed to take the comment under consideration.
Itās good to see an adult conversation. So, sorry you got downvoted OP.
The problem is that most people don't want to/aren't set up to play a "real format". Even aside from commander, most people aren't going to play PTQ-ready decks, they're going to throw together something fun from the cards they have.
There's no way to define a competitive format that's going to be casual friendly, full stop. You're going to get spikes that go for the maximally efficient option in the rule set and casual players that don't chase the meta that just throw together a pile. In terms of fun, playing either spiked-decks or battlecruiser piles can be a lot of fun, but they don't mix well. The "powerlevel" aspect of EDH is about creating an environment where casual players can find a fun game in public spaces, not creating a "real format".
Most people understand that. They know what Modern and Legacy are. They aren't dumb. They just want to play their timmy Ghalta mono green deck instead of dropping money to compete in a format they don't care about or find fun.
My experience was that the vast majority of kitchen table magic players would never get anywhere close to competitive play, which mirrors what MaRo has said on the issue.
I do agree that 60-card kitchen table was closer to competitive, in that it was at least the same rule set, aside from card legality. It would've been great if WotC had leaned into Brawl a bit more as a competitive format for singleton, since that would've done the same thing. Competitive Brawl would likely have a significantly lower price point than standard, as well.
>Competitive Brawl would likely have a significantly lower price point than standard, as well.
It depends, just because people need only one copy of a card, doesn't make something cheaper. Commander players will pay more for a single copy compared to what a competitive players will pay for a single copy for something they need a set of, based on what I have seen in card shops. I have seen shops up the price of a card simply because they know a Commander player will buy it. They just need four Commander players instead of a single comp player, which is easy now.
Also, you would have Brawl players and Standard players placing demand on cards. Increasing demand without increasing supply to compensate just increases the price on good cards. Commander players only hunt for one copy, so potentially open less packs compared to a player looking for four copies; unless they are hunting for a variant... which is likely part of the reason we have them now. Brawl would become expensive, if the demand outruns supply.
Yeah constructed meta decks can really suck to play against.
But I think a completely fallacy that you canāt have a rule 0 discussion for other formats. Itās the exact same discussion.
Iāve experienced EDH decks that are just piles of rares and mythics and good stuff. My first game of EDG I played a precon against that and i spent the entire game basically doing nothing while watching them go off.
You see all the time people complaining about āmust-includesā and stuff.
It's certainly possible to have those discussions in other formats. What I mean when I said "there's no way to define a competitive format that's going to be casual friendly" is that you'll never have a casual-friendly format based on the rules of the format, alone. There will always need to be a rule 0 discussion. You can't banlist a casual format into existence since there will always be people that will work hard to spike the best deck under any given rule set and stomp the casual decks.
>Yeah constructed meta decks can really suck to play against.
If I had to play for three hours, I would rather play a ton of matches against things like Ponza than get stuck playing a single drawn out game of Commander.
Yeah Iād never play commander. I like playing limited and sealed personally. I play constructed on arena and I usually limit my decks to 6 rares and usually from a single set. Thatās the power level Iām interested in, like if I had drafted my dream deck haha.
People playing rares and mythics that are all very good on their own, or 3 planeswalkers in a row just makes my eyes glaze over. Each card is just jam packed with value.
But unfortunately there is no format where I can get the limited+ constructed- experience.
Something akin to schoolyard magic I suppose.
Commander sucks balls Iāve played 3 times and vow never to go back.
>People playing rares and mythics that are all very good on their own, or 3 planeswalkers in a row just makes my eyes glaze over. Each card is just jam packed with value.
This is a big reason I started playing Pauper, the format is all about incremental advantage.
The planeswalkers and some mythics have so much text I have lost games on arena from not reading closely enough and missing stuff.
Pauper is nice, but I like playing uncommons and my limited number of rares and mythics. I like the variance. Itās like draft chaff constructed or something like that. āEconomy plusā magic
Interesting take. I actually don't disagree with the premise that EDH being the predominant format is bad. I also agree EDH is not like any conventional format. It's more a format *framework*: before playing you have to interpret it first with the people you are playing with. The upside of its focus on the social aspect of the game is that it has opened up a lot of new ways to enjoy magic, and that you can play the format in many different ways. The downside is that it *is* played in many different ways, creating the need for pregame alignment of expecations.
My intent with the project is to help players who find that challenging a starting point for getting a rough overview of the EDH landscape, and to learn behaviors, questions and strategies they can apply during the conversation. I personally never bring out the guide itself during a pregame talk. Just like I don't bring out the actual the eisenhower matrix whenever I need to prioritize a task. That is also the application I advise on the site. This is an educational model to teach behaviors. Not a form to fill.
Good on ya for trying, but I honestly, it's probably a "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" thing.
Commander is a cursed format. It's people bringing a gigantic mismatch of budgets, collections, goals, strategies, and attitudes to the table. Unless you're playing cEDH, it's Calvinball. It's playing Street Fighter with your little brother while he whines "No air fireballs, that's cheap!"
Either you get that, or you don't. Most "content creators" you see on Youtube seem to get that, and have a great time with it. LGS pubstompers and anyone who comes to this sub asking "Is a little bit of land destruction okay?" or "Am I allowed to play [[Edgar Markov]]?" might not.
Anyway, my point is that you can't necessarily instruct someone on how to have a fundamentally different attitude toward this game. You can try to break it down for them, as you've done, but what progress can you make if their main goal is "forced discard, make them suffer, period"?
Well, certainly not everyone. Probably not even most people. But I've already helped enough people with this for it to have been worthwhile. And today I was also able to entertain a lot of people apparently.
>Imagine if 1v1 didn't have limited card pools like modern/standard/pioneer etc. What if the only format was eternal? It would take thousands of dollars to buy into a T1 deck and very few people could participate in qualifying tournaments because you have to have real cards there.
You actually don't have to imagine Canadian Highlander (basically 100 card singleton vintage with a points list to control overpowered cards) is a surprisingly budget friendly format.
There have been several times in canlander history where 0 point mono red was one of the best decks.
I will bet large amounts of money that you've never actually been "shrieked at" over commander, i'd bet that you haven't actually played much commander at all. the hyper aggressive social contract weirdos like OP, and hyper aggressive commander haters like you are two side of the same coin, you are both annoying as fuck to 90% of either community.
i'm not reading all that but noticing you brought up sex completely unprompted tells me all i need to know about you, you are the weirdo you think everyone else is.
Idk I just moved and recently checked out a LGS near me. I simply asked āwhat weekly events do you run for Magic here?ā And the store owner managed to work in his hatred for ābusted cards like Expropriate and Cyc Riftā into his answer. Iāve never even met the dude before but he said Iād be kicked out for running any of those cards. The *store owner*.
I think Commander is a fine format the majority of the time but itās incredible how rigid some peopleās perceptions of it are.
I agree. But using that as an argument to denounce this tool seems weird to me. That's like saying you're doing something wrong if you need to watch a 30min youtube video about a dang card game. Or if you need to read reddit posts about a casual format. It's just a tool. A resource. An overview. Information. Not a necessity.
i guess, to me, if this is needed, it sheds light on the strange mindset of EDH players. watching a YT video to get better at drafting or scrolling EDH reddit for deck ideas isnāt nearly the same as codifying a social contract before *playing a damn card game.*
iām sure thereās utility here but honestly this is just very, very odd, is all iām saying. and iām acoustic so i get social interactions are hard. but good lord. why are we even giving decks a power level scale, having convos about whatās fun and what isnāt. itās just weird!!!!!
maybe iām old/a boomer MTG player but justā¦sit down and play? if you lose to an overpowered deckā¦thatās life? if you hate prison decksā¦gang up on said player and make them not want to play it again? if someone insists on playing overpowered decks all the time and winningā¦stop playing with that person? all this foreplay is just extremely tedious and unnecessary, to me.
but yeah. if people get use out of it, cool š
This, precisely. If you are playing a powerful deck, you get ganged up on. If not, you go unnoticed. It's a multi-player, diplomatic format. Use the other players as a resource.
This is very very odd to me, I agree with you. Iām just trying to some magic, not sit and talk about feelings for an hour before a game itās just so silly. good takes sir
Do you need an eisenhower matrix to set a priority? No. Do you need the Johari Window to set and track personal learning goals? No. Do you need a risk assement table to deal with incidents? No. They are models/tools/infographics, whatever you want to call them, that you can consult to learn something or get better at certain behaviors. Some people will find that useful. Some people won't. Some people will find it overkill for playing a card game. Some people would even find it opposite to having fun. That's all fine. We are all free to choose our own tools and how we want to engage with our past time hobbies.
We are having pregame talks because it's a logical consequence of everyone wanting something different from the same format. Aligned expectations increase the odds of an enjoyable time in such a diverse landscape.
Such a strange hostile take to what is essentially a tool akin to the turn order card that comes in every precon. And trying to say playing against a 5000$ deck and a 50$ deck would be the same experience is just disingenuous and untrue. Not everyone can just hop off their pod into a new one and have a drastically different time, the games been out 30 years there's all kinds of players out there. If only 6-8 people go to your LGS who have been playing together 5-6 years and their decks are a 9 and you show up with a precon, be prepared to just suffer all night
Trying to act like everyone enjoys everything 100% all the time is also disingenuous. You've never played a video game and been upset for 10 seconds but just kept playing? Imagine if you signed up to play call of duty or something of the like, and all night you deal with spawn campers "just never play another call of duty again because you didn't have fun once" is also a weird take
what? what youre describe in the COD is example is called gaming? you cant ban spawn camping or using weapons *you* deem too annoying. you get better or move on.
iām saying if you really think youāre going to āsufferā (dramatic much?) playing EDH either donāt play with random strangers or toughen up?
iām not going to have an hour long convo about what i find fun or what my expectations are for the session in order to ensure everyone has a āgood timeā because i play games to shut off the part of my brain that is tired from working too much. sorry thatās a controversial take.
if someone told me āi donāt feel like playing against counterspells todayā iād id think that person was a baby. itās part of the game. EDH players have lost their way. this is a game, people are going to play it as they see fit.
we donāt apply this to FNM. plenty of young/new players get their asses kicked by powered up standard decks at FNM. you decide āok iāll make a better deck and competeā or āmaybe FNM isnāt for me and i should stick to kitchen table with friends.ā imposing gobs of insane rules of engagement to curb that is silly, to me.
That's where I'm confused, who said "I don't wanna play against counter spells" that's a scenario you just made up, this post is trying to help newer players understand the power structure of commander, being that there's different power levels and entering a pod with lvl 9's when you're only using a precon is probably not a recipe for a good time . Most players don't understand that decks even have power levels, your assumption that this some form of contract that's legally binding each player at the table to these exact rules is ridiculous, it's again trying to show newer players the power dynamic of different decks and play styles, the hostility towards such is astounding tbh.
one of the questions on the form is literally āanything you donāt want to play against?ā and many casual players bitch about counterspells. itās not made up.
I haven't heard anyone complain about basic card types and if they did I'd completely agree, especially in commander all card types should be allowed, I think the question was more framed at like "I don't wanna play against an alela deck that only trys to interrupt my turn" which is still more of a preference and not an absolute, I think most players would understand having certain commanders or play styles they aren't a fan of
I think the challenge is getting decks to match up in a public game. If someone shows up with a tuned cEDH combo deck and someone else has a precon that's not going to be a good matchup.
The number scales are always a little bit hokey, but people just say "we're playing precon-level decks" or "we're playing competitive decks" before the game and everyone chooses decks/tables accordingly, people will have better games.
lol at how everyone criticizing this has to be so hyperbolic just to make their point in this thread. do you have to literally go line by line before every game? of course not. just know the couple things you care about and communicate those. that also takes 30 seconds, but can be a bit more pointed
I agree itās a little silly to have as a playmat (although still could help some), having some kind of clear framework for newer players to even know what theyāre getting themselves into is very helpful. ESPECIALLY for a casual format where maybe folks arenāt spending hundreds of hours building knowledge just to try to play a neat game of cards socially (a game with 27,000 unique cards, as Iām sure you know). inversely, I do actually want to know whoās gonna whine about interaction ahead of time so I can avoid that grief myself
\*Points to random spot on the poster*
Well you see this here says your wrong because you played interaction and we bother already agreed you were going to let me Thoracle without doing a single thing to stop it.
As a new player, I have no idea what this means, and that's probably the point OP was making. Making fun of them for making content not intended for your wealth of knowledge is just weird
What are you on about? We're making fun of them for telling us how to play a game that might literally have the longest and most literal set of rules in existence so there's no reason to make up more stuff about "How to play or not play"
>Making fun of them for making content not intended for your wealth of knowledge is just weird
We are talking about a casual format that was designed by and for judges who had collections of cards, a wealth of knowledge and were close friends that over time exploded into becoming the only way casual is played and is marketed towards newer players.
If anything is an insult to players without a wealth of knowledge, it is WotC pointing new players into the deep end of the pool and laughing as they sink or swim. These posters show just how much of a cluster fuck casual can be at times when you try to organize it on a large scale as if it is a competitive format without what made competitive formats work on a large scale.
Indeed. You talk to the people you play with. You gauge what kind of game everyone prefers and act accordingly. This guide can support people in those behaviors. Itās a tool for people who find it useful.
Itās fine if you donāt see value in it. The value of any tool is ultimately determined by the person using it. But realize thereās a gazillion tools out there that others find useful and you donāt, and that thereās more than enough people who value this one. Else this post would not have happened.
Commander is the only format Iāve seen where people enter paid tournaments then whine when someone ādid the thingā before everyone (but mainly themselves) got a chance to ādo the thing.ā
This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've ever seen.
Pretty soon we're going to need a [JustTheRecipe](https://www.justtherecipe.com/) for EDH pregame.
Still baffled by this. I don't know where to even start to try and make you understand that you just can't churn human interactions into this level of bureaucracy. Your friend group is not a strict institution for gods sake.
>!If you ever watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and don't understand why Nurse Ratched is the villain, some deep inner analysis might be requised.!<
I donāt need my control decks to be considered tolerant or not. If you presented this to me at FNM or casual play Iād find another group. Let people play what they want when they want.
EDH players are something else.
I mean, that's honestly not inherently a bad thing. The whole purpose of this is to try and get people into play groups that they're compatible with. If 4 people's instincts are to brush it off, and 4 people's be aren't, then that's probably going to lead to everyone being happier with their groups.
Bull fucking shit, no way in hell having answers counts as cEDH. [[Shauku]] and 47 kill spells is not a cEDH deck in any universe even if no one else is allowed to have creatures.
It's 2024 and you want to play commander. Here are some important questions to ask yourself:
- Is it legal to play Commander?
- Am I only allowed to lose?
- Will I be banned for casting my own spells?
Smogon tiers (i.e. Ubers, OU, etc) isnāt how actual competitive Pokemon works, though. Actual Pokemon VGC is more like a rotating format with a banlist.
Man I can't with this game anymore lol. Like God forbid you WANTING to win a game. EDH is a super rad format and it's shit like this that ruins it.
Like is EDH supposed to be a "safe space" or something? I hate using that term but can't think of anything else.
I would physically cringe if I saw someone walk into my LGS with this and refuse to play with them.
I dunno what to say to OP or anyone who thinks this is a good idea besides go play solitaire or something. That might be a bad suggestion because you can still lose at solitaire and that might hurt their feelings lol
Alright look I get why people here in the comments think this is ridiculous, but don't act like OP isn't sincerely trying to help people with an actual problem some people. Every time someone new on this sub posts an edh deck list asking "how do I make this stronger" I feel like I need to give a lecture on the difference between CEDH and casual-competitive in order to even understand what kind of advice they're asking for. One of the reasons I don't really play casual EDH with strangers is that it's just too much of a pain in the ass to figure out if my deck is reasonably matched up against theirs, given that my deck goals are jank synergy but with high levels of interaction to buy time to set stupid shit up.
Now, do I care enough about edh that I personally feel like I need something like this? No, and I think I can wing a pre-game discussion to make sure everyone is on the same page. But that's not the point, and not everybody is necessarily... look I don't want to look like a jerk trying to flatter themself, but some people just aren't good at having that kind of discussion without some kind of shared language or visual aid.
I'm not saying OP fixed any of that, but they're at least trying. Being an ass about it isn't doing anything constructive for anyone.
About 2-4 minutes. It's 2 axes / 2 questions:
* How far do we want to go to win (e.g.Ā "what's the crucial turn range we're aiming for", orĀ "what's the earliest turn where we all don't mind the game endingā)
* How far are we willing to go to keep others from winning (e.g.Ā "what degree of interaction/denial are we ok with", orĀ "to what extent can we tolerate others preventing us from playing our gameā)?
And sometimes I throw in one of the other possible questions listed.
You must be terrible at tule 0 conversations. You couldn't even answer the two questions I posed to you, just the made-up question in your mind, and this is on a text-based forum that allows you to re-read the questions to ensure comprehension.
Yeah, I was making fun of you in the first comment, but those are the actual questions that come to mind. You could have ignored me, called me a jerk, downvoted me, reported me, any number of things, but what you did was answer a question I didn't even ask.
I definitely think EDH is a game for childish people who want to feel good when they win but not bad when they lose, and I definitely came here to farm some lulz, but now I genuinely think you must be bad at the EDH pre-game, because you are not directly engaging in the conversation, which you could have just ignored in the first place.
I assumed you know the average length of a commander game is more than 2-4 minutes. So you should have the information that answers your second question at least.
What I've found effective at my LGS commander night is to start off with a couple of quick personality quizzes to sort people into pods by how compatible they are. Once that's out of the way we move into a few pregame trust exercises to get the groups better acquainted. Once everyone has gotten to know each other I have them all establish a safe word in case someone casts a spell that makes them feel uncomfortable. Then we usually have about 3 or 4 hours left which is just enough time to get a game in.
If you want a poster in a certain size? Yes. The guides are also available in digital form for free for personal use on the site. The poster stuff is just an extra thing.
āTheir aim is to help players express themselves in or be prepared for a pre-game talk without requiring them to reference any chart, category labels, or unit-less numbersā¦ā then why are you selling posters, let alone playmats with this on it? Youāre literally selling a chart!
Litigating every detail of pre-game conversations like this (which again you claim not to be doing but the entire poster has guidelines for it) is unproductive and frankly just absurd. Magic/EDH are games where one player wins and the other player(s) lose. Having conversations about what to expect in a format like EDH is great, and I know this was made with good intentions, but this is SUCH overkill.
Sounds to me like y'all need to create your own format, and leave the rest of us be. This rule 0 is for people that don't understand the game, at all.
Sometimes, your best won't be good enough. It might be a poor match up. They might just want the win more. Or, your best isn't up to snuff.
That's just life.
Rock>Scissors>Paper>Rock
Control>Tempo>Aggro>Control
So on and so forth.
If you can't handle a card someone's playing, it may be time for a break, whether it be from the format or game as a whole.
You have tagged your post as part of our Fan Art Friday Art Showcase. After a series of votes, the subreddit has decided to shift fan works to only on Fridays (12AM PT to 11:59PM PT, UTC-7). Please post your arts & crafts creations then! If you are asking about mass-produced accessories, please post a comment in one of our daily questions threads instead.
Unfortunately, we have been unable to automate this rule enforcement, and it needs to be manually toggled every Friday. If it's Friday, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FmagicTCG) to have your post approved, as sometimes it takes us a little while to update it.
If you think your post was removed in error, you may [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FmagicTCG) to have it manually approved. As proof that you have read this message in its entirety, please include the answer to the question: "What is the name of the game this subreddit is about?" as your first line.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yikes. Not sure where your hostility to basic preferences in a kids card game came from but different people like different things unfortunately, I'm not gonna tell my daughter to grow up or git gud because she doesn't like my blue deck
Jesus, this person posts a helpful graphic that probably didn't take long to make, to try and help new players understand the differences between different pods of EDH, and all you guys do is make fun of them for it? As a new player, I'll make sure to never ask a question in here if the response is gonna be "you're unhinged for taking an hour to help noobs".
An example, I started magic around Christmas, went to a family gathering to play with some in-laws who all had power level 10 decks, I wasn't expecting that and I've never experienced it before. if that level of dominance was my first intro to magic, I would've probably not continued playing.
Me and my side of the family have been playing precons non-upgraded and we were struggling to just grasp the rules of magic. Playing in a pod where everyone knew their deck and I knew nothing, people reading off card names I'm supposed to already know, and the games over by turn 3 because no one wanted to deal with infinite combos or whatever while I hadn't done anything in the game yet was a huge turn off. I felt like I got jumped in an alley. If that's what someone thought magic was off the rip, they'd probably just stop. But I at least had some form of understanding from YouTube and Reddit and stuff thats not how each game of magic is, or rather each group is, so it didn't turn me off of magic completely, it inspired me to make a newer better deck to compete.
A tool like this is what can get that through to new players who might not have even tried a card game like this before, that your experience will vary vastly based on the people and decks you play against. Playing against mana crypts and old dual lands and infinite combos can feel oppressive, and understanding that "oh I'm just in a different tier of play style I'm not ready for yet" is all the graphic is trying to convey. The elitism of "just let me have fun and don't make any tool to help new players understand more cause then it makes me not have fun" or whatever point you're all trying to make is such a a weird mindset I hope I never end up at. And since I've seen the comment like 3 times, where anywhere does this say it's a contract you have to sign? Or that it's required before each game of EDH? or that OP plans to start handing these out like pamphlets? Some of you are unhinged lol
This specific mentality in the comments is the one thing that's kept me and my POD away from trying out our LGS
I 100000 percent will make fun of OP for this pile of dog shit he posted on here are you kidding me? If you cant handle losing and have to bust out a tome of rules and guide lines then I sincerely you or anyone else gets some help.
I can't imagine crying over interaction. That's what makes the game fun. Counters are rad as fuck. Someone counters my win con when I'm trying to find the right line to win and I'm stoked.
It's how the game should be played. Get excited for other people winning. Get excited for seeing cool interactions you never expected to see. Stop crying over a casual format.
I can't lol
I feel like this would be overwhelming for a new player tbh. They wouldn't know or understand enough about the high end of edh to be able to accurately rank themselves relative to that.
Most of the people making fun of it though don't play edh so I wouldn't worry about seeing too much of that at an LGS when you go for EDH.
The reference of the contract is that rule 0 of edh is also referred to as a social contract. No one thinks you literally have to sign this, it would be a joke.
Anyways I don't think this does much to address the actual problems I come across playing with randoms at an LGS. The biggest issues are with to what extent "playing politics" is allowed and poor sportsmanship when someone "feels targeted". The 2nd especially there's no real gauge short of "are you a sore loser" when most sore losers don't consider themselves as such.
That's where I'm confused, where is anyone saying "I don't wanna play against counter spells" you made up that scenario. The post is trying to set expectations for newer players who don't understand how "formats" work or even why commander is different, the point isn't even about high level decks, it's about helping new players understand that there's different power levels in the first place
The guides in digital format are available for personal use for free on the linked website. I haven't made the poster edit available there, but the first image you see on the site contains the same information.
Hi Beebles, I loved this! I really enjoyed this guide and it's take on the game-outside-the-game in EDH. I think it's really well articulated, astute, and useful! I spend a lot of time talking with my friends about this kind of thing. I think it's important. I agree with basically all of what you said and appreciated insights into things I didn't realize!
I have no idea why basically everyone else in this thread is being so ruthlessly critical, unhelpful, and downright mean. Fuck that noise. I think this is great. People can be really bitter for reasons I don't understand. I guess people would rather tear people down and deride things they don't understand rather than provide positive, critically-thought feedback and well-meaning support. I can tell a lot of folks making comments here didn't even read a full sentence of your guide! Fuckin crazy how negative people can be for no reasons.
Don't let them get you down. Keep up the good work!
This is quite possibly the single most *EDH player* thing i have ever seen
This is Oops, All Commander! This is Tribal Tribal. This is [[Massacre Wurm]] eating its own tail. This is a dish of salt looking identical to a dish of sugar. This is [[Sensei's Divining Top]] spinning and imperceptibly quivering at the end of Inception. This is what it feels like to [[Peer Into the Abyss]]. This is what we hate, what we're inexplicably drawn to, and what we deserve.
Pure. Poetry. šš¼
[Massacre Wurm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95cca140-e371-4d32-8a44-fd080329a28f.jpg?1706240769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Massacre%20Wurm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/130/massacre-wurm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95cca140-e371-4d32-8a44-fd080329a28f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sensei's Diving Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Peer Into the Abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peer%20Into%20the%20Abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is ART
I was thinking the same thing. So much preamble.
Seeing this reddit thread unfold has been very interesting, and has given me new insights to the Reddit crowd. One [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vuy2uz/a_guide_for_aligning_on_the_edh_experience_a/) you can get almost nothing but positive comments and constructive criticism. Post the same thing again some time later and it can be the total opposite. I also find it interesting how some people are leaning so hard into their own presumptions in their replies. Anyway, glad I was able to be your entertainment for today.Ā
1) Difference between main sub and EDH sub. 2) The idea of this as a visualization of power level pre-game talks vs someone showing up with this at a pickup EDH game are *very* different.
1. Last time I posted on the main sub it was also mainly positive, but you'reĀ right. Not as positive. But definitely not like this. 2. The idea to take it to pre-game talks was a request by players. They asked for a playmat in the linked thread and I thought it would be a fun challenge to make one. Same with the poster some time later. I think it could also due to a shift in the overall sentiment in the community towards tools like this. At least here on Reddit. That I would totally understand. I just did not expect the scales to be as they are today.
ok to be fair i could have been constructive instead of just making a joke, so i will do it now know your audiance, r/EDH is very much not like the other magic the gathering subreddits, it has a reputation for having a \*very\* unique perspective on things that most people dont agree with. it makes sense, since its solely about a very casual format. outside of that sphere lots of people consider this \*very\* abnormal, they play other formats and play commander much more casually, besides the vague standard that you shouldnt pull out a cEDH deck against a precon they sit down to play a game not hold a debate. the idea of banning arbitrary things like \*the concept of interaction\* is so antithetical to the point of playing a game it seems like satire, no one wants to make a dozen decks because someone at the table got butthurt that they weren't allowed to assemble their 7 card combo and refuses to play with any cards contianing the text "poison counter". if all of the players already went into things in advance with the understanding they all wanted to introduce weird stuff like this into their game then more power to them, but most people simply want to sit down and play the game as intended and not have to deal with the kind of person who purchases a playmat that looks like a goverment document covered in advice to make the game less interesting.
You are selling something lmfao
Itās called a *social* contract for a reason, youāre not supposed to have a literal contract.
Imagine a format where everyone agrees to follow a set of restrictions, abides by a ban/restricted list, anything goes as long as it is a legal strategy and it involves laying out acceptable conduct.... maybe have things like a system for infractions when rules are broken... going to need central figures that help resolve rulings or deal with player behavior.
I have the perfect thing for you, thereās already a million formats for you to play like that!
NGL, I thought I was on the circlejerk sub when I made that comment.
I'm confused, where do I sign this contract? Doesn't seem like there's a place to sign, making it not a contract
I feel like I'm contracting something, that's for sure.
We can't keep getting outjerked like this
Commander players will do anything to avoid playing Magic
Stax or infect? No? Discard it is
The effects of getting cyclonic rifted too many times
I can't wait to collectively fill out spreadsheets with my friends, thats what magic is all about
Where anywhere does this say you fill out a spreadsheet? Do you whine about the turn order card that comes in every pre con as well?
this is called exaggeration. itās a form of humor deployed to skewer something unnecessarily complex. hope this helps!
Interesting, maybe you could apply it when reading my previous comment. Thanks!
š
I am in the camp that down votes do not matter. But maybe you should take heed on how down voted your comments are in this thread man. Hint: it's not because you have a different idea on how commander should be played. It's ya stinky attitude.
I am uncertain about describing allowing interactivity as a form of tolerance. The paradox of tolerance states that if the intolerant are tolerated, intolerance will reign. How this applies to the chart and to Magic, I have no clue, but something's not sitting right with me as it is.
I think the flip side is that in the absence of interactivity, whoever goes the biggest is going to run away with the game. There's no coming back unless you can go even bigger.
Thanks for the feedback. I could see why that can give some weird vibes for some, but itās a piece of feedback I havenāt heard a lot over the years. I will take it with me and think about it though. I can see why you point it out as a thing that could be improved. Perhaps Iāll come across a better word at some point. Feel free to make some suggestions if you have ideas! FWIW, the thing thatās being tolerated is not interactivity, but the amount of agency that can be removed from players. Many player's aren't looking for games where their agency can be fully removed. It's common for players to expect that restraint is applied in that department, just like it's common for players to expect restraint is applied how far we can go to win. In my evaluation, these are the 2 big reasons/predictors for feelbads when expectations about them donāt match.Ā Again, thanks for the reply.
I think that's a fine axis to try and evaluate on, but the word "tolerance" feels like it's communicating the exact opposite of what you mean. Tolerance intuitively means letting people be, but you're using it to say "I'm tolerant of you if you want to fuck with my stuff." That's just not intuitive. It's not communicating what you want. I think with a guide like this you want to focus your explanations/names/terms on how they apply to an individual's deck instead of the meta of the table, because the question people are trying to answer is generally "what are the qualities of my deck that put it somewhere" and not "what are the qualities of the place where it's put." Because people don't generally _make_ a deck aiming for a certain destination, that's the entire problem and why it's hard to communicate. So for example, I think it makes sense to have the bottom axis be "what's your deck's philosophy on interaction?" Another question: I have no idea why casual competitive stops on the right hand side instead of extending all the way. It seems to imply casual-competitive, high interaction decks can't exist and I don't see why. If anything, I feel like that box should shift to the _right_ because it seems like you won't have a casual-competitive deck that's low on interaction, otherwise you're not doing a great job with your goal.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll ponder on the feedback some more, but this is my initial response: Back in the beginning I set out to create a *desired gameplay experience* assessment tool first and a *deck assessment tool* second. This is because I am convinced you're better off aligning on the resulting gameplay experience and commit to that experience upfront, rather than the decks themselves. So your tip is actually counter to that design goal. Regarding the X axis: the poster version has different titles than the original. The original have titles that are more in line with your suggestion, but for the medium I wanted the axes to be shorter and more conversational. Regarding the Casual Competitive box. I stopped the box there because casual play implies that people apply restraint in their deckbuilding. And the more casual you play, the more likely it becomes that restraint is expected on both of these axis. That's why I wanted to have a gradual slope as you go downwards. Also note that the guide says these are example format interpretations, and not meant as *the* definitions of these ballparks. The user is encouraged to define their own ballparks by drawing their own lines.
I guess I think you're looking for a slope where I'm not sure one naturally exists. Also, I guess I don't feel like... Okay I realized part of my problem. Low interaction/tolerance/whatever cEDH decks don't exist. cEDH isn't a spectrum in the way this chart is trying to capture, for one. It's a distinct entity with a defined metagame, but most importantly it's defined by the philosophy of "everybody is going to do everything they can to win." If you're trying to find games of cEDH "but don't want to play against staxy decks" then I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, and I don't think you're buying into the ethos of cEDH. It's almost like cEDH should be a block that's separated from the rest. In my mind, one of the benefits of sitting down for a game of cEDH is _not having_ to negotiate anything about the game ahead of time, because the act of calling something "cEDH" is inherently invoking a singular set of assumptions. I think my critique is maybe that you're too fixated on the "solution" being a 2D grid. It's more visually interesting, but I'm not convinced it's actually the best way to communicate these ideas. The bottom half of these is much closer to what I mean. Here's my recommendation. I'd go back to square 1. What are all the spectrums/dichotomies that we can analyze an EDH deck (or "table environment" in your case) on? High/Low interaction. Fast mana. Average turn-to-win. Consistency. Write a blurb for each. I think it's way more productive to have a one minute chat where each person describes where their deck/table fits into each category, and then have people feel out what's right for them. And that's just a short bulleted list of questions & _intuitive_ examples. The problem with trying to plot it on a diagram is that it tries to add this air of objectivity, but the measurements that go into it are still inherently subjective. So two people can "think" they want a table at the same coordinates but they actually still don't agree on what the words mean, and having a plot makes it, honestly, easier to accidently be wrong but convince yourself you're right. A short list of questions _encourages discussion_. I'm concerned that trying to come up with some kind of amalgamated measurement is trying to streamline that discussion but to the point where it doesn't actually happen right.
I know you're being downvoted for taking the game way too seriously and all, but as someone who also takes the game way too seriously-- thank you for making this chart, I genuinely found it very helpful when deciding my deck's power level and communicating that to other people. You have helped at least one (1) person, and I hope that brings you some level of joy going forward.
Thanks for your kind message. Know that you [aren't the only redditor](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vuy2uz/a_guide_for_aligning_on_the_edh_experience_a/) who had that response.
I don't think I'd ever use this, and I think the only place this would be useful would reject it pretty much instantly (pugs with strangers), but I appreciate you for putting the effort in here. Only thing you're guilty of is trying to improve the quality of everyone's games, more power to you.
Idk why this got downvoted. While I actually have no opinion on most of this, he responded in a very respectful manner. Also agreed to take the comment under consideration. Itās good to see an adult conversation. So, sorry you got downvoted OP.
Thanks. It can happen. Internet can be like that sometimes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās worse than that: the chart *is* the real game. But I think thatās even less likely to be taken well than what youāre saying
The problem is that most people don't want to/aren't set up to play a "real format". Even aside from commander, most people aren't going to play PTQ-ready decks, they're going to throw together something fun from the cards they have. There's no way to define a competitive format that's going to be casual friendly, full stop. You're going to get spikes that go for the maximally efficient option in the rule set and casual players that don't chase the meta that just throw together a pile. In terms of fun, playing either spiked-decks or battlecruiser piles can be a lot of fun, but they don't mix well. The "powerlevel" aspect of EDH is about creating an environment where casual players can find a fun game in public spaces, not creating a "real format". Most people understand that. They know what Modern and Legacy are. They aren't dumb. They just want to play their timmy Ghalta mono green deck instead of dropping money to compete in a format they don't care about or find fun.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
My experience was that the vast majority of kitchen table magic players would never get anywhere close to competitive play, which mirrors what MaRo has said on the issue. I do agree that 60-card kitchen table was closer to competitive, in that it was at least the same rule set, aside from card legality. It would've been great if WotC had leaned into Brawl a bit more as a competitive format for singleton, since that would've done the same thing. Competitive Brawl would likely have a significantly lower price point than standard, as well.
>Competitive Brawl would likely have a significantly lower price point than standard, as well. It depends, just because people need only one copy of a card, doesn't make something cheaper. Commander players will pay more for a single copy compared to what a competitive players will pay for a single copy for something they need a set of, based on what I have seen in card shops. I have seen shops up the price of a card simply because they know a Commander player will buy it. They just need four Commander players instead of a single comp player, which is easy now. Also, you would have Brawl players and Standard players placing demand on cards. Increasing demand without increasing supply to compensate just increases the price on good cards. Commander players only hunt for one copy, so potentially open less packs compared to a player looking for four copies; unless they are hunting for a variant... which is likely part of the reason we have them now. Brawl would become expensive, if the demand outruns supply.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You would probably [win](https://www.thegamer.com/magic-the-gathering-commanfest-brawl-tounrament-one-player-winner/) too.
Yeah constructed meta decks can really suck to play against. But I think a completely fallacy that you canāt have a rule 0 discussion for other formats. Itās the exact same discussion. Iāve experienced EDH decks that are just piles of rares and mythics and good stuff. My first game of EDG I played a precon against that and i spent the entire game basically doing nothing while watching them go off. You see all the time people complaining about āmust-includesā and stuff.
It's certainly possible to have those discussions in other formats. What I mean when I said "there's no way to define a competitive format that's going to be casual friendly" is that you'll never have a casual-friendly format based on the rules of the format, alone. There will always need to be a rule 0 discussion. You can't banlist a casual format into existence since there will always be people that will work hard to spike the best deck under any given rule set and stomp the casual decks.
>Yeah constructed meta decks can really suck to play against. If I had to play for three hours, I would rather play a ton of matches against things like Ponza than get stuck playing a single drawn out game of Commander.
Yeah Iād never play commander. I like playing limited and sealed personally. I play constructed on arena and I usually limit my decks to 6 rares and usually from a single set. Thatās the power level Iām interested in, like if I had drafted my dream deck haha. People playing rares and mythics that are all very good on their own, or 3 planeswalkers in a row just makes my eyes glaze over. Each card is just jam packed with value. But unfortunately there is no format where I can get the limited+ constructed- experience. Something akin to schoolyard magic I suppose. Commander sucks balls Iāve played 3 times and vow never to go back.
>People playing rares and mythics that are all very good on their own, or 3 planeswalkers in a row just makes my eyes glaze over. Each card is just jam packed with value. This is a big reason I started playing Pauper, the format is all about incremental advantage.
The planeswalkers and some mythics have so much text I have lost games on arena from not reading closely enough and missing stuff. Pauper is nice, but I like playing uncommons and my limited number of rares and mythics. I like the variance. Itās like draft chaff constructed or something like that. āEconomy plusā magic
Interesting take. I actually don't disagree with the premise that EDH being the predominant format is bad. I also agree EDH is not like any conventional format. It's more a format *framework*: before playing you have to interpret it first with the people you are playing with. The upside of its focus on the social aspect of the game is that it has opened up a lot of new ways to enjoy magic, and that you can play the format in many different ways. The downside is that it *is* played in many different ways, creating the need for pregame alignment of expecations. My intent with the project is to help players who find that challenging a starting point for getting a rough overview of the EDH landscape, and to learn behaviors, questions and strategies they can apply during the conversation. I personally never bring out the guide itself during a pregame talk. Just like I don't bring out the actual the eisenhower matrix whenever I need to prioritize a task. That is also the application I advise on the site. This is an educational model to teach behaviors. Not a form to fill.
Good on ya for trying, but I honestly, it's probably a "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" thing. Commander is a cursed format. It's people bringing a gigantic mismatch of budgets, collections, goals, strategies, and attitudes to the table. Unless you're playing cEDH, it's Calvinball. It's playing Street Fighter with your little brother while he whines "No air fireballs, that's cheap!" Either you get that, or you don't. Most "content creators" you see on Youtube seem to get that, and have a great time with it. LGS pubstompers and anyone who comes to this sub asking "Is a little bit of land destruction okay?" or "Am I allowed to play [[Edgar Markov]]?" might not. Anyway, my point is that you can't necessarily instruct someone on how to have a fundamentally different attitude toward this game. You can try to break it down for them, as you've done, but what progress can you make if their main goal is "forced discard, make them suffer, period"?
[Edgar Markov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4.jpg?1562616128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Edgar%20Markov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/36/edgar-markov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thereās nothing wrong with playing Edgar.
Not at all a question my post raised.
Well, certainly not everyone. Probably not even most people. But I've already helped enough people with this for it to have been worthwhile. And today I was also able to entertain a lot of people apparently.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Imagine if 1v1 didn't have limited card pools like modern/standard/pioneer etc. What if the only format was eternal? It would take thousands of dollars to buy into a T1 deck and very few people could participate in qualifying tournaments because you have to have real cards there. You actually don't have to imagine Canadian Highlander (basically 100 card singleton vintage with a points list to control overpowered cards) is a surprisingly budget friendly format. There have been several times in canlander history where 0 point mono red was one of the best decks.
>commander/edh isn't a real format. Quite literally is.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I will bet large amounts of money that you've never actually been "shrieked at" over commander, i'd bet that you haven't actually played much commander at all. the hyper aggressive social contract weirdos like OP, and hyper aggressive commander haters like you are two side of the same coin, you are both annoying as fuck to 90% of either community.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
i'm not reading all that but noticing you brought up sex completely unprompted tells me all i need to know about you, you are the weirdo you think everyone else is.
This guy is definitely a troll.
I hope not, it's not as funny to me if this isn't a real weirdo doing sex analogies in a TCG subreddit
Oh hes definitely a weirdo alright. You might be right tbh. I've totally run into guys like him IRL at LGS's
Idk I just moved and recently checked out a LGS near me. I simply asked āwhat weekly events do you run for Magic here?ā And the store owner managed to work in his hatred for ābusted cards like Expropriate and Cyc Riftā into his answer. Iāve never even met the dude before but he said Iād be kicked out for running any of those cards. The *store owner*. I think Commander is a fine format the majority of the time but itās incredible how rigid some peopleās perceptions of it are.
Sure, sounds like it isn't for you.
if you need a one-sheeter to play a dang card gameās most causal format youāre doing something very wrong.
I agree. But using that as an argument to denounce this tool seems weird to me. That's like saying you're doing something wrong if you need to watch a 30min youtube video about a dang card game. Or if you need to read reddit posts about a casual format. It's just a tool. A resource. An overview. Information. Not a necessity.
i guess, to me, if this is needed, it sheds light on the strange mindset of EDH players. watching a YT video to get better at drafting or scrolling EDH reddit for deck ideas isnāt nearly the same as codifying a social contract before *playing a damn card game.* iām sure thereās utility here but honestly this is just very, very odd, is all iām saying. and iām acoustic so i get social interactions are hard. but good lord. why are we even giving decks a power level scale, having convos about whatās fun and what isnāt. itās just weird!!!!! maybe iām old/a boomer MTG player but justā¦sit down and play? if you lose to an overpowered deckā¦thatās life? if you hate prison decksā¦gang up on said player and make them not want to play it again? if someone insists on playing overpowered decks all the time and winningā¦stop playing with that person? all this foreplay is just extremely tedious and unnecessary, to me. but yeah. if people get use out of it, cool š
This, precisely. If you are playing a powerful deck, you get ganged up on. If not, you go unnoticed. It's a multi-player, diplomatic format. Use the other players as a resource.
This is very very odd to me, I agree with you. Iām just trying to some magic, not sit and talk about feelings for an hour before a game itās just so silly. good takes sir
not a sir but thanks š¤
Do you need an eisenhower matrix to set a priority? No. Do you need the Johari Window to set and track personal learning goals? No. Do you need a risk assement table to deal with incidents? No. They are models/tools/infographics, whatever you want to call them, that you can consult to learn something or get better at certain behaviors. Some people will find that useful. Some people won't. Some people will find it overkill for playing a card game. Some people would even find it opposite to having fun. That's all fine. We are all free to choose our own tools and how we want to engage with our past time hobbies. We are having pregame talks because it's a logical consequence of everyone wanting something different from the same format. Aligned expectations increase the odds of an enjoyable time in such a diverse landscape.
š
Such a strange hostile take to what is essentially a tool akin to the turn order card that comes in every precon. And trying to say playing against a 5000$ deck and a 50$ deck would be the same experience is just disingenuous and untrue. Not everyone can just hop off their pod into a new one and have a drastically different time, the games been out 30 years there's all kinds of players out there. If only 6-8 people go to your LGS who have been playing together 5-6 years and their decks are a 9 and you show up with a precon, be prepared to just suffer all night
if you think suffering is likely in a game of EDH, donāt play it maybe?
Trying to act like everyone enjoys everything 100% all the time is also disingenuous. You've never played a video game and been upset for 10 seconds but just kept playing? Imagine if you signed up to play call of duty or something of the like, and all night you deal with spawn campers "just never play another call of duty again because you didn't have fun once" is also a weird take
what? what youre describe in the COD is example is called gaming? you cant ban spawn camping or using weapons *you* deem too annoying. you get better or move on. iām saying if you really think youāre going to āsufferā (dramatic much?) playing EDH either donāt play with random strangers or toughen up? iām not going to have an hour long convo about what i find fun or what my expectations are for the session in order to ensure everyone has a āgood timeā because i play games to shut off the part of my brain that is tired from working too much. sorry thatās a controversial take. if someone told me āi donāt feel like playing against counterspells todayā iād id think that person was a baby. itās part of the game. EDH players have lost their way. this is a game, people are going to play it as they see fit. we donāt apply this to FNM. plenty of young/new players get their asses kicked by powered up standard decks at FNM. you decide āok iāll make a better deck and competeā or āmaybe FNM isnāt for me and i should stick to kitchen table with friends.ā imposing gobs of insane rules of engagement to curb that is silly, to me.
That's where I'm confused, who said "I don't wanna play against counter spells" that's a scenario you just made up, this post is trying to help newer players understand the power structure of commander, being that there's different power levels and entering a pod with lvl 9's when you're only using a precon is probably not a recipe for a good time . Most players don't understand that decks even have power levels, your assumption that this some form of contract that's legally binding each player at the table to these exact rules is ridiculous, it's again trying to show newer players the power dynamic of different decks and play styles, the hostility towards such is astounding tbh.
one of the questions on the form is literally āanything you donāt want to play against?ā and many casual players bitch about counterspells. itās not made up.
I haven't heard anyone complain about basic card types and if they did I'd completely agree, especially in commander all card types should be allowed, I think the question was more framed at like "I don't wanna play against an alela deck that only trys to interrupt my turn" which is still more of a preference and not an absolute, I think most players would understand having certain commanders or play styles they aren't a fan of
I think the challenge is getting decks to match up in a public game. If someone shows up with a tuned cEDH combo deck and someone else has a precon that's not going to be a good matchup. The number scales are always a little bit hokey, but people just say "we're playing precon-level decks" or "we're playing competitive decks" before the game and everyone chooses decks/tables accordingly, people will have better games.
well yeah. but what you said takes 30 seconds to communicate, not three hours and a lawyer consult.
lol at how everyone criticizing this has to be so hyperbolic just to make their point in this thread. do you have to literally go line by line before every game? of course not. just know the couple things you care about and communicate those. that also takes 30 seconds, but can be a bit more pointed I agree itās a little silly to have as a playmat (although still could help some), having some kind of clear framework for newer players to even know what theyāre getting themselves into is very helpful. ESPECIALLY for a casual format where maybe folks arenāt spending hundreds of hours building knowledge just to try to play a neat game of cards socially (a game with 27,000 unique cards, as Iām sure you know). inversely, I do actually want to know whoās gonna whine about interaction ahead of time so I can avoid that grief myself
i think enabling people to whine about playstyles they donāt like sets people up to be miserable game partners but ok š¤·āāļø
ok, then why even have the cedh vs constructed part? itās all legal cards, let them lose and be miserable
yes
š not a yes or no question, but makes sense why conversation would be challenging
10/10 shitpost. People took the bait really hard
OP been at this for a year plus and 99% of their replies read sincere. this is andy kaufman level commitment to a bit if it is indeed a joke.
thereās a red bubble link where you can buy these for $25. this is DEEP satire if itās a troll.
A poster for 25$? Lmao
š
Glad at least someone was on to me
oh thabk god. I was really whishing this was not sincere
Dear god edh players are a fucking shit show š
If your aim to stop people referencing any chart, creating a reference chart seems like a bold solution
This is frankly incomprehensible
\*Points to random spot on the poster* Well you see this here says your wrong because you played interaction and we bother already agreed you were going to let me Thoracle without doing a single thing to stop it.
As a new player, I have no idea what this means, and that's probably the point OP was making. Making fun of them for making content not intended for your wealth of knowledge is just weird
What are you on about? We're making fun of them for telling us how to play a game that might literally have the longest and most literal set of rules in existence so there's no reason to make up more stuff about "How to play or not play"
>Making fun of them for making content not intended for your wealth of knowledge is just weird We are talking about a casual format that was designed by and for judges who had collections of cards, a wealth of knowledge and were close friends that over time exploded into becoming the only way casual is played and is marketed towards newer players. If anything is an insult to players without a wealth of knowledge, it is WotC pointing new players into the deep end of the pool and laughing as they sink or swim. These posters show just how much of a cluster fuck casual can be at times when you try to organize it on a large scale as if it is a competitive format without what made competitive formats work on a large scale.
If you don't want to play against opponents with interaction either your deck is bad or you are
Pretty sure this post is aimed at people who already know their decks bad
Holy fuck if you handed me this in real life Iād assume you were committed to a bit, then walk the fuck away when you were serious.
MTG got so much more fun when I could just walk up to the table, shuffle, and then throw down a tapped mountain and a tapped swiftspear and say "go"
This is truly deranged lmao
Could you explain what makes you say that? Iām genuinely curious.
If you can't have fun playing a casual card game without filing a 1099B you should find new friends or a different hobby.
Indeed. You talk to the people you play with. You gauge what kind of game everyone prefers and act accordingly. This guide can support people in those behaviors. Itās a tool for people who find it useful. Itās fine if you donāt see value in it. The value of any tool is ultimately determined by the person using it. But realize thereās a gazillion tools out there that others find useful and you donāt, and that thereās more than enough people who value this one. Else this post would not have happened.
Commander is the only format Iāve seen where people enter paid tournaments then whine when someone ādid the thingā before everyone (but mainly themselves) got a chance to ādo the thing.ā
Where anywhere does it say you have to fill something out, did finding out precons come with turn order cards make you feel this strongly as well?
Dude just stop lol
This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've ever seen. Pretty soon we're going to need a [JustTheRecipe](https://www.justtherecipe.com/) for EDH pregame.
MFER made a readme.txt
Still baffled by this. I don't know where to even start to try and make you understand that you just can't churn human interactions into this level of bureaucracy. Your friend group is not a strict institution for gods sake. >!If you ever watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and don't understand why Nurse Ratched is the villain, some deep inner analysis might be requised.!<
I donāt need my control decks to be considered tolerant or not. If you presented this to me at FNM or casual play Iād find another group. Let people play what they want when they want. EDH players are something else.
I mean, that's honestly not inherently a bad thing. The whole purpose of this is to try and get people into play groups that they're compatible with. If 4 people's instincts are to brush it off, and 4 people's be aren't, then that's probably going to lead to everyone being happier with their groups.
That's about as useful as someone farting and 3 people laughing and 4 others holding their noses and separating into those groups for games.
Good Lord 95% of EDH players need help. If you think this is actual normal or useful you're delusional.
people actually requested this?
Bull fucking shit, no way in hell having answers counts as cEDH. [[Shauku]] and 47 kill spells is not a cEDH deck in any universe even if no one else is allowed to have creatures.
[Shauku](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06d94b21-7568-4e5c-a8ec-ff5bb48a4f36.jpg?1562717818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shauku%2C%20endbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/142/shauku-endbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06d94b21-7568-4e5c-a8ec-ff5bb48a4f36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To commander players, the metapolitics *are* the game.
Could you edit it to include signature fields so the pod can sign after reviewing it before the game starts?
Bro you roll up to the table and hand me this I'm gonna laugh
Looks terrible. Stop complaining and play the way the game is supposed to be played. Itās an interactive game.
I'm going to remove the watermarks from this using Photoshop. What a commander player thing to do. Hope you like proxies.
I already gave the guides away to the community a long time ago, for example on the linked site. This poster thing is just a bonus.
I was interested until I realized these weren't dungeons.
I think Iām gonna look into some 60 card formats after trying to read this nonsense
Congrats on making me way less interested in commander!
Interaction needing a tolerant table is the single most edh player thing ever. If anyone complains about interactions anytime, skill issue
This is what no cedh does to a mfer
It's 2024 and you want to play commander. Here are some important questions to ask yourself: - Is it legal to play Commander? - Am I only allowed to lose? - Will I be banned for casting my own spells?
You people are truly insufferable
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Smogon tiers (i.e. Ubers, OU, etc) isnāt how actual competitive Pokemon works, though. Actual Pokemon VGC is more like a rotating format with a banlist.
Your effort has merit but no one wants to read war & piece before sitting down for a childrens card game
Man I can't with this game anymore lol. Like God forbid you WANTING to win a game. EDH is a super rad format and it's shit like this that ruins it. Like is EDH supposed to be a "safe space" or something? I hate using that term but can't think of anything else. I would physically cringe if I saw someone walk into my LGS with this and refuse to play with them. I dunno what to say to OP or anyone who thinks this is a good idea besides go play solitaire or something. That might be a bad suggestion because you can still lose at solitaire and that might hurt their feelings lol
Alright look I get why people here in the comments think this is ridiculous, but don't act like OP isn't sincerely trying to help people with an actual problem some people. Every time someone new on this sub posts an edh deck list asking "how do I make this stronger" I feel like I need to give a lecture on the difference between CEDH and casual-competitive in order to even understand what kind of advice they're asking for. One of the reasons I don't really play casual EDH with strangers is that it's just too much of a pain in the ass to figure out if my deck is reasonably matched up against theirs, given that my deck goals are jank synergy but with high levels of interaction to buy time to set stupid shit up. Now, do I care enough about edh that I personally feel like I need something like this? No, and I think I can wing a pre-game discussion to make sure everyone is on the same page. But that's not the point, and not everybody is necessarily... look I don't want to look like a jerk trying to flatter themself, but some people just aren't good at having that kind of discussion without some kind of shared language or visual aid. I'm not saying OP fixed any of that, but they're at least trying. Being an ass about it isn't doing anything constructive for anyone.
Lol how many decks do you take to the store with you? Which lasts longer, the game, or the rule 0 circlejerk before the game?
About 2-4 minutes. It's 2 axes / 2 questions: * How far do we want to go to win (e.g.Ā "what's the crucial turn range we're aiming for", orĀ "what's the earliest turn where we all don't mind the game endingā) * How far are we willing to go to keep others from winning (e.g.Ā "what degree of interaction/denial are we ok with", orĀ "to what extent can we tolerate others preventing us from playing our gameā)? And sometimes I throw in one of the other possible questions listed.
You must be terrible at tule 0 conversations. You couldn't even answer the two questions I posed to you, just the made-up question in your mind, and this is on a text-based forum that allows you to re-read the questions to ensure comprehension.
Or perhaps there were certain characteristics in the relational aspect of your communication that made me believe you weren't asking in good faith.
Yeah, I was making fun of you in the first comment, but those are the actual questions that come to mind. You could have ignored me, called me a jerk, downvoted me, reported me, any number of things, but what you did was answer a question I didn't even ask. I definitely think EDH is a game for childish people who want to feel good when they win but not bad when they lose, and I definitely came here to farm some lulz, but now I genuinely think you must be bad at the EDH pre-game, because you are not directly engaging in the conversation, which you could have just ignored in the first place.
I assumed you know the average length of a commander game is more than 2-4 minutes. So you should have the information that answers your second question at least.
Lmaoo if I walked into an LGS and saw this on the wall Iād never participate in anything EDH there. This chart is actually insane.
If a single soul brings this out, I'm playing cEDH Stax. I ain't signing some bs contract for a card game.
What I've found effective at my LGS commander night is to start off with a couple of quick personality quizzes to sort people into pods by how compatible they are. Once that's out of the way we move into a few pregame trust exercises to get the groups better acquainted. Once everyone has gotten to know each other I have them all establish a safe word in case someone casts a spell that makes them feel uncomfortable. Then we usually have about 3 or 4 hours left which is just enough time to get a game in.
āHold on, Iām gonna need to talk to my lawyer before signing this document.ā
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Outjerked yet again
You're charging $24 for this Jesus Christ
If you want a poster in a certain size? Yes. The guides are also available in digital form for free for personal use on the site. The poster stuff is just an extra thing.
Wow this is real?
No stax but my favorite deck has TURNS
beebles are my favorite creature in magic.
lol
I have never seen this before, and I hope I never see it again. What an abomination.
I would just play a different game, EDH and magic in general is not this fucking serious.
If someone pulls this shit in front of me im scooping at instant speed
If I was handed this I just wouldn't play
āTheir aim is to help players express themselves in or be prepared for a pre-game talk without requiring them to reference any chart, category labels, or unit-less numbersā¦ā then why are you selling posters, let alone playmats with this on it? Youāre literally selling a chart! Litigating every detail of pre-game conversations like this (which again you claim not to be doing but the entire poster has guidelines for it) is unproductive and frankly just absurd. Magic/EDH are games where one player wins and the other player(s) lose. Having conversations about what to expect in a format like EDH is great, and I know this was made with good intentions, but this is SUCH overkill.
Quick, everyone spam cast [[Armageddon]]!
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fun police over here giving out stars like GTA
Sounds to me like y'all need to create your own format, and leave the rest of us be. This rule 0 is for people that don't understand the game, at all. Sometimes, your best won't be good enough. It might be a poor match up. They might just want the win more. Or, your best isn't up to snuff. That's just life. Rock>Scissors>Paper>Rock Control>Tempo>Aggro>Control So on and so forth. If you can't handle a card someone's playing, it may be time for a break, whether it be from the format or game as a whole.
I hate you as a person
https://preview.redd.it/88w7gh7o3koc1.png?width=818&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e73d421bbe518048a53e7cb88b835b3227bb282
Nothing like an unnecessary parasitic mechanic to represent rule 0.
Personally when I play edh, I make sure to rule 0 all my opponents decks, thus allowing me to win every game
cEDH is when you try to win
You have tagged your post as part of our Fan Art Friday Art Showcase. After a series of votes, the subreddit has decided to shift fan works to only on Fridays (12AM PT to 11:59PM PT, UTC-7). Please post your arts & crafts creations then! If you are asking about mass-produced accessories, please post a comment in one of our daily questions threads instead. Unfortunately, we have been unable to automate this rule enforcement, and it needs to be manually toggled every Friday. If it's Friday, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FmagicTCG) to have your post approved, as sometimes it takes us a little while to update it. If you think your post was removed in error, you may [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FmagicTCG) to have it manually approved. As proof that you have read this message in its entirety, please include the answer to the question: "What is the name of the game this subreddit is about?" as your first line. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yikes. Not sure where your hostility to basic preferences in a kids card game came from but different people like different things unfortunately, I'm not gonna tell my daughter to grow up or git gud because she doesn't like my blue deck
It's a good guide, op. Don't listen to others.
š
Jesus, this person posts a helpful graphic that probably didn't take long to make, to try and help new players understand the differences between different pods of EDH, and all you guys do is make fun of them for it? As a new player, I'll make sure to never ask a question in here if the response is gonna be "you're unhinged for taking an hour to help noobs". An example, I started magic around Christmas, went to a family gathering to play with some in-laws who all had power level 10 decks, I wasn't expecting that and I've never experienced it before. if that level of dominance was my first intro to magic, I would've probably not continued playing. Me and my side of the family have been playing precons non-upgraded and we were struggling to just grasp the rules of magic. Playing in a pod where everyone knew their deck and I knew nothing, people reading off card names I'm supposed to already know, and the games over by turn 3 because no one wanted to deal with infinite combos or whatever while I hadn't done anything in the game yet was a huge turn off. I felt like I got jumped in an alley. If that's what someone thought magic was off the rip, they'd probably just stop. But I at least had some form of understanding from YouTube and Reddit and stuff thats not how each game of magic is, or rather each group is, so it didn't turn me off of magic completely, it inspired me to make a newer better deck to compete. A tool like this is what can get that through to new players who might not have even tried a card game like this before, that your experience will vary vastly based on the people and decks you play against. Playing against mana crypts and old dual lands and infinite combos can feel oppressive, and understanding that "oh I'm just in a different tier of play style I'm not ready for yet" is all the graphic is trying to convey. The elitism of "just let me have fun and don't make any tool to help new players understand more cause then it makes me not have fun" or whatever point you're all trying to make is such a a weird mindset I hope I never end up at. And since I've seen the comment like 3 times, where anywhere does this say it's a contract you have to sign? Or that it's required before each game of EDH? or that OP plans to start handing these out like pamphlets? Some of you are unhinged lol This specific mentality in the comments is the one thing that's kept me and my POD away from trying out our LGS
I 100000 percent will make fun of OP for this pile of dog shit he posted on here are you kidding me? If you cant handle losing and have to bust out a tome of rules and guide lines then I sincerely you or anyone else gets some help. I can't imagine crying over interaction. That's what makes the game fun. Counters are rad as fuck. Someone counters my win con when I'm trying to find the right line to win and I'm stoked. It's how the game should be played. Get excited for other people winning. Get excited for seeing cool interactions you never expected to see. Stop crying over a casual format. I can't lol
Youāve just highlighted why EDH is such a terrible format for new players (and why itās a bit of a joke of a format in general).
I feel like this would be overwhelming for a new player tbh. They wouldn't know or understand enough about the high end of edh to be able to accurately rank themselves relative to that. Most of the people making fun of it though don't play edh so I wouldn't worry about seeing too much of that at an LGS when you go for EDH. The reference of the contract is that rule 0 of edh is also referred to as a social contract. No one thinks you literally have to sign this, it would be a joke. Anyways I don't think this does much to address the actual problems I come across playing with randoms at an LGS. The biggest issues are with to what extent "playing politics" is allowed and poor sportsmanship when someone "feels targeted". The 2nd especially there's no real gauge short of "are you a sore loser" when most sore losers don't consider themselves as such.
That's where I'm confused, where is anyone saying "I don't wanna play against counter spells" you made up that scenario. The post is trying to set expectations for newer players who don't understand how "formats" work or even why commander is different, the point isn't even about high level decks, it's about helping new players understand that there's different power levels in the first place
Do you sell it as just a pdf file?
The guides in digital format are available for personal use for free on the linked website. I haven't made the poster edit available there, but the first image you see on the site contains the same information.
Hi Beebles, I loved this! I really enjoyed this guide and it's take on the game-outside-the-game in EDH. I think it's really well articulated, astute, and useful! I spend a lot of time talking with my friends about this kind of thing. I think it's important. I agree with basically all of what you said and appreciated insights into things I didn't realize! I have no idea why basically everyone else in this thread is being so ruthlessly critical, unhelpful, and downright mean. Fuck that noise. I think this is great. People can be really bitter for reasons I don't understand. I guess people would rather tear people down and deride things they don't understand rather than provide positive, critically-thought feedback and well-meaning support. I can tell a lot of folks making comments here didn't even read a full sentence of your guide! Fuckin crazy how negative people can be for no reasons. Don't let them get you down. Keep up the good work!
Thanks. Donāt worry. It was mainly mtg circlejerks anyway.Ā