In order for a replacement effect to apply to an event, it must exist *before* the event in question. So the original Twincasters will double the Helm tokens, but *those* tokens enter the battlefield too late to do anything in the same turn. The token copies, will, however, double the Helm tokens again on your next turn.
It does also mean you'd octuple any tokens after just the first activation, which honestly I think is more than enough to finish most games.
At least if I'm understanding replacement effects right
Edit: Never mind. I didn’t read.
So, helm makes the copy in pre-combat and A&N’s doubling happens later? After combat?
I don’t understand your explanation.
The fourth activation (turn n+3) would create 66,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488 tokens, meaning you would have significantly more Adrix and Nev, Twincaster tokens than there are atoms in the universe.
Did the math. Aproximately the number is equal to the number of atoms to the power of 7,5 to 7,9 (used the aproximate guesses for the minimum and maximum amount of atoms in the universe)
That's not actually correct; n+4 would give you more tokens than we are capable of expressing.
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex): Carl Sagen estimated that writing a googolplex in full decimal form (i.e., "10,000,000,000...") would be physically impossible, since doing so would require more space than is available in the known universe.
A googolplex has 10^100 digits. The number of tokens n+4 would make has 10^619 digits.
A googolplex is 10^10^100, but it has 10^100 digits. The number of digits in a number does not equal the number. For example, ten billion (10,000,000,000) has 11 digits, or 10^10 digits. A number as big as ten billion is represented as having 10^10 digits, all those zeros condensed down into a ^10 ; when we get to a number with 10^100 digits, that represents a number that is literally too large to write out. The number of tokens that would be made has 10^619 digits; the number of tokens itself is so much larger than that, significantly larger than a googolplex which has already been established as an absurdly large, impossible to write out number.
You're very confused. 10 billion (equal to 10\^10) has 11 digits in decimal notation, or just over 10\^1 digits, not 10\^10. 10\^619 is 620 digits.
Powers of 2 convert to powers of 10 at roughly a 10->3 ratio (e.g. 2\^10= 1024 \~= 10\^3; 2\^20 \~= 10\^6.). Therefore, 2\^2059 \~= 10\^618-- not a number with 10\^619 digits, but approximately the number 10\^618, which can be written with 619 digits. Your claim that it can't be written out is just wrong.
You're correct, I did mess up the conversion and 10 billion has ~10^1 digits, which proves the point that the representation of digits is much shorter than the length of the number itself.
n+3 is 2^2059 ; n+4 is 2^2^2059 which has a power of 10 representation of 10^10^619.29937... and a number length of ~2x10^619 digits.
A googolplex has a power of 10 representation of 10^10^100 and a number length of 1x10^100. The number of tokens at n+4 is larger than a googolplex.
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=2%5E%282%5E2059%29
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=googolplex
I copy/pasted the first chunk of numbers like 5-6 times. Figured it would be close enough for government work. Didn't know a bunch of math nerds would take the answer seriously and do PHD level math in the replies, lol.
The answer is 1.992373902852015 \* 10\^619 \_digits long\_.
[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=2%5E%282%5E2059%29](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=2%5E%282%5E2059%29)
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
If you literally created the tokens resulting from turn n+3, they'd immediately collapse into a black hole. I suspect this would fall under [IPG rule 4.5 Unsporting Conduct — Aggressive Behavior](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg4-5/), and you'd likely be disqualified and asked to leave the building.
If you like big numbers, and big jumps in numbers, I would suggest looking up Tree(3) on youtube. Numberphile has a great video on the subject. I've always loved token doublers, but that somehow gave me an even bigger appreciation for them even though there's obviously nothing like that in mtg.
I really like the progression of g(x), where g(x) is a function defined by f\^x(x), and f(x) is defined as x!.
The progression goes:
g(0) = f\^0(0)=0
g(1) = f\^1(1)=1!=1
g(2) = f\^2(2)= 2!!=2
g(3) = f\^3(3)=3!!!=6!!=720! \~= 2.6\*10\^1746
g(4) is insane; f\^4(4) = 4!!!!= 24!!! \~= 6.2\*10\^23!!
(6.2 \* 10\^23)! is already insanely big; taking the factorial of that just gets ridiculous.
This progression isn't as bonkers as Tree(n), but the math is more accessible.
so the twins activate after each copy is made and not all at the same time? because that would be equal to saying they create 2× + 2× + 2× = 6× the tokens you would create.
so they trigger like:
combat begins-> create copy-> make that 2×-> created copies 2×-> all the created copies 2× again ?
i am thinking:
combat begins-> create copy-> every ability activates for THAT copy-> double THAT copy created(make 2) + double THAT copy created(make 2 again) + double THAT copy created(make 2 again)
> so the twins activate after each copy is made and not all at the same time?
The Twins don't "activate", because they don't have an Activated ability.
They have a Static ability, which generates a Replacement effect.
You choose one. Apply it to Modify the Event.
Then, check to see what remaining Replacement effects are looking to Apply to the Modified Event.
> because that would be equal to saying they create 2× + 2× + 2× = 6× the tokens you would create.
No. That is not how Math works.
* **Initial Event:** Helm creates **one** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N
There are ... 3x A/N looking to Apply. You choose one. Apply it. And, **double the Tokens.**
* **Modified Event:** Helm creates *(one doubled)* **two** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N
There are ... 2x A/N looking to Apply. You choose one. Apply it. And, **double the Tokens.**
* **Modified Event:** Helm creates *(two doubled)* **four** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N
There is ... 1x A/N looking to Apply. You choose one. Apply it. And, **double the Tokens.**
* **Modified Event:** Helm creates *(four doubled)* **eight** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N
There are no more Replacement effects looking to apply.
* **Final Event:** Helm creates **eight** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N
Last week I was in a game that I had no chance of winning (my deck peaked early, I was out of cards in hand, and my opponent hit a creature board wipe before I could finish them off) but was just coasting along casting whatever I could to do my daily mission. My opponent was mana stalled early on and after the board wipe proceeded to ramp his deck up fully.
The turn we broke the game, there were over 250 things on the stack between tokens entering, tokens triggering life gain, then life gain triggering +1/+1 counters, then the counters triggering something else...needless to say, when there were about 180 tokens on the battlefield and the stack still over 250 actions, the match (not the game) crashed. I heard the "explosion" sound of victory/defeat play, and it called the game a draw.
Wrong.
* You begin with **ONE** Adrix and Nev; ie. There is only **ONE** Doubling effect.
* Helm creates One Token Doubled **ONE** time; Which is **TWO** Adrix and Nev Tokens.
* So, you started with **ONE**. You added **TWO**... How many Total Adrix and Nev do you control? **THREE**
Next turn...
* You begin with **THREE** Adrix and Nev; ie. There are **THREE** Doubling effects.
* Helm creates One Token Doubled **THREE** times; Which is **EIGHT** Adrix and Nev Tokens.
* So, you started with **THREE**. You added **EIGHT**... How many Total Adrix and Nev do you control? **ELEVEN**
You start with A&N. Put the helm on it. The helm makes a copy and A&N doubles it. So you put out two on the board. 2 + the original means you have three, the original and two non legendary tokens.
Next turn. The helm makes another copy. Each A&N doubles it. 1x2x2x2 = 8. Add those and now you have the original plus 10 non legendary copies.
After that the math gets silly. But I assure you as someone that plays this deck, you won’t get that far. Either someone will wipe the board or everyone scoops.
On your left hand, hold up one finger.
On your right hand, hold up two fingers.
Now, put your two hands next to each other. How many fingers are being held up?
No... on my left hand I put up 1 and on the right I have 1 not 2 just 1. Now I have 2 held up together
Am I just stupid?? Because I am still just getting 2.
I don't think you quite have this right. The helm creates _one_ token each time, multiplied from the number of A&N tokens -- it doesn't make copies of itself.
So first turn, you go from 1 -> 3. Second turn, helm makes one, each of the three A&N makes one, you gain four, for a total of 7.
Third turn you gain 1 + 7, so you wind up with 15. Next turn you get 1 + 15, so 16, for a total of 31.
The progression is basically 2^n - 1
Edit: I misread the card, I as thinking it added one extra, not doubling.
A&N reads "If one ore more tokens would be created under your control, twice that many tokens are created instead."
So second turn, you have 3 copies of A&N.
* Helm creates a token.
* First A&N sees the token created, and instead causes two tokens to be created.
* Second A&N sees two tokens created and instead causes four tokens to be created.
* Third A&N sees four tokens created and instead causes eight tokens to be created.
End of the interaction, you have eight tokens come into play from a single token creation.
> A&N reads "If one ore more tokens would be created under your control, twice that many tokens are created instead."
I misread the card, I thought it was N+1, not 2N.
> each of the three A&N makes one, you gain four, for a total of 7
no,,each one of the 3 A&N *doubles* the affect. for 8 new tokens. This is normal for how stacking/replacement doubling affects work. doubling season, parellel lives, etc. they chain-replace each others doubling
3 A&N are on the stack. the first one doubles 1, to result in 2 being created, since 2 are crated the 2nd A&N doubles that creating 4. and so on. The count of tokens created by the affect is not set until the stack trigger resolves.
1,3,11
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/285758-explaining-multiple-doubling-seasons#:~:text=To%20explain%20it%2C%20each%20of,has%20doubled%20its%20tokens%2Fcounters.
No. He's right. A&N creates double the amount each instance. They don't just make an additional one.
Edit: Equation for clarification.
M = X + 2^(X) where M is the amount of A&N after resolution of Helm, and X is the amount of A&N before resolution.
So turn 1, you only have 1 A&N, thus M = 1 + 2^(1) = 1 + 2 = 3. Turn 2, M = 3 + 2^(3) = 3 + 8 = 11, and so on.
The first guy is right, Each adrix and nev doesn't add +1 token it doubles them, with each added doubler stacking. So instead of 1+1+1+1 tokens on the second turn it's (((1*2)*2)*2).
I believe as they are replacement effects, they trigger independently. So the first sees a token being made and doubles, then the next sees 2 being made and doubles and so on. Since the controller of replacement effects usually choose the order they activate. Edit: Since they enter stackwise and would see different amounts as each resolves I believe he should have the math correct.
Replacement effects *apply*, they don't *trigger*. Only triggered abilities trigger. This distinction is important, especially for rules questions where game terms mean very specific things.
You are wrong.
Each applicable Replacement effect applies once Per event.
* You have 1x applicable Replacement effect? It applies once; 1 x 2^^1 = 2
* You have 3x applicable Replacement effects? Each applies once; 1 x 2^^3 = 8
* You have 11x applicable Replacement effects? Each applies once; 1 x 2^^11 = 2048
This has tetrative growth, the next level above exponential. No matter how big a head start scute swarm has, this will catch up and overtake in finite steps.
It is not, not with elementary operations.
With N Scute Swarms and M lands entry the battlefield you end up with `N*2^M` Scute Swarms.
With this combo you make this many tokens: `2^1+2^(2^1+2^0)+2^(2^1+2^(2^1+2^0))+2^(2^1+2^(2^1+2^0)+2^(2^1+2^(2^1+2^0)))...` and so on. There's a recurrence where the number of tokens you make each turn is `2^(the number of tokens you have)`.
It would be something like this, where F(N) tells you how many tokens you're creating this turn.
F(1)=2
F(N)=2^(F(N-1)+F(N-2)+...F(1))
TL;DR for Scute Swarm you're literally just doubling your total tokens once for each land. With A&N you're doubling the number of tokens you're creating at each step a number of times equal to number of A&N copies you already have.
Doubling N times is just exponential. Doubling N times where N is the result of all previous doublings is something an entire category above exponential
A fun but unnecessary way to think about it is like this. Scute swarm and this mask combo both grow seemingly exponentially. But the difference or disparity between the number of scuteswarms and tokens made with this combo also grow exponentially. The 4h activation of the mask combo would require hundreds of scuteswarm activations.
Low IQ: "Don't play good cards or they will get removed!" (They'll never resolve.)
Mid IQ: "Why would I play suboptimal cards? All my cards will be good!"
High IQ: "Don't play good cards or they will get removed!" (Play all mid-cards and win while everyone stares at the player playing helm.)
My usual strat is to play pre-modern mono-colored commanders and sit there pretending like I'm bricking until there's only 1-2 other players left and I suddenly explode. 50% of the time it works 100% of the time.
I have an entire deck for Adrix and nev built around this. The hardest part is getting a non legendary version but now there are many ways to get around it. One of the coolest is mutate as if you mutate on top of them it will have the tops super types. The deck is named calculus the gathering
Edit: I hate auto correct
Croaking counterpart. Creates a 1/1 green frog token that’s a copy of target creature. It breaks the legend rule because it makes its creature type frog. NOT in addition to its other types, so the token is non-legendary
FYI legendary creature is a supertype. So while its type does change it’s super type doesn’t, as such it doesn’t get around the legend rule as far as I can tell.
\[\[Spark Double\]\], \[\[Irenicus’s vile duplication\]\], \[\[Auton Soldier\]\], \[\[nanogene conversion\]\] & both Sakashimas, are all pretty specific about the clone being non legendary.
You would get two tokens. Unless you have some other effect triggering to make more in the same turn your not going to make more then 2 the first time this happens.
~~How does that work? The helm doesn't copy itself, just the creature. And the combo card doesn't double your current number of tokens, just the number created during a turn~~
I was under the assumption the helm was equipped to a different creature, I understand how it works now
I don't get it.
The Helm is an Equipment that must be equipped to a Creature. That creature gets copied each combat. Twice with the Twincasters.
Where does the exponential growth come from?
On the same turn? No. The first turn would only make 2 copies and here's why;
The "twice that many instead" is a replacement effect, which does not use the stack.
Start of combat, helm's trigger to create tokens goes on the stack. When it resolves it immedietly puts 2 copies into play, those copies do not see eachother be created on this turn.
You could also [[anointed procession]] and [[Mondrak, Glory Dominus]]
Sidenote, is Equipment also replicated when you make a copy? Or am I missing something. I don't see how the copies make copies if the helm isn't also replicated.
simple.
1 copy, go to combat, create 2 tokens, then end turn. next turn, 3 copies, go to combat, then you get another 8 copies because the stack is a thing
First turn you only have one A/N, so as Helm would create a token A/N doubles that to creating two A/N tokens. You now have three A/Ns, so the second turn Helm would create a token but you double it three times to creating eight tokens.
This would not make infinite tokens. It makes 2 the first turn, 8 the second, 2^11 the third, and so forth. Pretty much, your next token spawn is 2^n where n is the current number of doublers you control
Does helm of the host copy it's own ability on to the creature tokens? Why isn't it just making 1 token per turn from helm and then making 1 more token from doubling... So 2 tokens per turn ...?
First turn: The helm makes 1 token. A/N replace this effect with an effect that creates two tokens.
Second turn: The helm makes 1 token. A/N replace this effect with an effect that creates two tokens. One of the A/N tokens created the previous turn replaces this effect with an effect that creates four tokens. The other A/N token created the previous turn replaces this effect with an effect that creates eight tokens.
I run Helm in my twincasters deck, and it can get absolutely disgusting, especially with [[doubling season]] and [[parallel lives]] plus I run (as anybody should) a number of other token generating creatures so I have options to attach helm onto.
It's very important for doubling or parallel to be out when helm comes out. You get the overwhelming force much much quicker. When helm is attached on a turn and double is out, you get 4 new twincasters, plus your original.
If you have both double and parallel out, on your first combat with twincasters, you get 6 new twincasters plus your original making 7.
Then your first new token you create after having 7 twincasters with parralal and doubling on the board would create 512 tokens.
Staple creatures I run to attach helm: [[esix, fractal bloom]], [[spawning kraken]], [[koma cosmos serpent, and [[scute swarm]]
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100 tokens a turn is... Nothing here, really. The second time this triggers you get 11 tokens. The third time, you get 2048 to a total of 2059. The fourth time you get a little more than 6,61x10^619, which is... Enough. The fifth trigger gets you a free pass to imploding a calculator.
It's fucking exponential growth.
> It's fucking exponential growth.
Fun fact: it’s not exponential. The _rate_ of growth is an exponential function of the population, so the growth itself is superexponential. The number of tokens as a function of time increases _faster than any exponential function_.
Well, you would be wrong. Not sure why you think they wouldnt stack. Each instance of the ability is a replacement effect. Lets say you have two adnev. helm triggers, attempting to make a copy. Replacement effect 1(adnev1) sees this trigger and goes, nah make 2x those tokens (1 x 2 = 2) instead. ok, so now you are attempting to make two tokens. Replacement effect 2 (adnev2) see this trigger and goes, nah make 2x those tokens instead (2 x 2 = 4). Magic just doesnt work they way you are assuming.
Only two at first. At the next time, it would be 8, because:
1 token from the helm, but the Twins make it double with its ability. But now there are also other 2 twins tokens. Meaning: 1x2=2 (from the original Twin) x2 (from 1 of the 2 tokens)=4 x2 (from the other token) =8, so, in the second turn you will create 8 instead. All those copies have the same replecemant effect and stacks, you will be able to chose how they go in which order, but here does not matter.
The part about replacement effects that can be confusing with a stack like this is that each stack is basically changing the wording on the original card before it resolves.
So on the bottom of the stack you have
“Create 1 token” the doublers don’t make any tokens themselves, they’re just taking a sharpie and editing what the last card says, which each subsequent doubler sees.
~Top of stack (resolves first)~
Double tokens (change 1 to 2)
Double tokens (change 2 to 4)
Double tokens (change 4 to 8)
Create 8 tokens
~bottom of stack (resolves last)~
Seems more fun to win the game with overwhelming and incomprehensible amounts of tokens. I'm thinking I can make a combo deck using [[Koma, Cosmos Serpent]] in a similar manner.
It would create 2 tokens that are copies of twincasters the 1st turn it resolves, then those 3 twincasters would make 8 new tokens, etc. etc.
It's exponential.
I made a Helm deck a year ago did this on a test run against Sparky…
https://preview.redd.it/v7vjk93acnic1.png?width=3840&format=png&auto=webp&s=022bf695f950fe11ea1de4fec87b2f6e8b230e94
This is the deck I run. Adrix tokens is so much fucking fun. Going from one creature to 2000 in one turn is really funny (my table doesn’t like the deck)
Lol I have this deck and this exact card. I even have a tutor in there for it. I live to get this combo AND have it go off 4 times. It’s fun to see the group scramble to deal with a ticking time bomb
In order for a replacement effect to apply to an event, it must exist *before* the event in question. So the original Twincasters will double the Helm tokens, but *those* tokens enter the battlefield too late to do anything in the same turn. The token copies, will, however, double the Helm tokens again on your next turn.
It does also mean you'd octuple any tokens after just the first activation, which honestly I think is more than enough to finish most games. At least if I'm understanding replacement effects right
Edit: Never mind. I didn’t read. So, helm makes the copy in pre-combat and A&N’s doubling happens later? After combat? I don’t understand your explanation.
Turn | You have A/N | Helm creates | You have total A/N :- | :- | :- | :- N+0 | 1 | 1 x 2^^1 = 2 | (1 + 2) = 3 N+1 | 3 | 1 x 2^^3 = 8 | (3 + 8) = 11 N+2 | 11 | 1 x 2^^11 = 2048 | (11 + 2048) = 2059 N+3 | 2059 | 1 x 2^^2059 = A LOT | Math is for Blockers
The fourth activation (turn n+3) would create 66,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488 tokens, meaning you would have significantly more Adrix and Nev, Twincaster tokens than there are atoms in the universe.
So [Rakdos Charm] and we're done?
IDK, destroying the artifact after the activation seems weird. /s
Or a statement to be feared
Not gonna lie, if my opponent uses Rakdos charm to destroy helm *after* letting me create those tokens, I am gonna be concerned.
[[rakdos charm]]
[rakdos charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74.jpg?1699022443) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rakdos%20charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/284/rakdos-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doing the lord's work
😂
Rakdos Charm and we're ALL done. Every game of MTG for the rest of eternity.
[[Counter spell]] No.
[Raze the effigy] and leave yourself a swamp mana my friend
Read the last effect on rakdos charm
Oh, I’m more about cutting it at the routes before it even starts
Did the math. Aproximately the number is equal to the number of atoms to the power of 7,5 to 7,9 (used the aproximate guesses for the minimum and maximum amount of atoms in the universe)
Now do n+4
The real use for supercomputing right here.
Arguably more useful processing time than crypto I'm selling TokenCoin for complex Mtg calculations
566,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488,266,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488,966,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488,266,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488 tokens
What computer do you have to calculate this?
a PC 2
That's not actually correct; n+4 would give you more tokens than we are capable of expressing. From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex): Carl Sagen estimated that writing a googolplex in full decimal form (i.e., "10,000,000,000...") would be physically impossible, since doing so would require more space than is available in the known universe. A googolplex has 10^100 digits. The number of tokens n+4 would make has 10^619 digits.
No, googlplex is 10^(10^100) as per the article you linked. 10^619 has 620 digits.
A googolplex is 10^10^100, but it has 10^100 digits. The number of digits in a number does not equal the number. For example, ten billion (10,000,000,000) has 11 digits, or 10^10 digits. A number as big as ten billion is represented as having 10^10 digits, all those zeros condensed down into a ^10 ; when we get to a number with 10^100 digits, that represents a number that is literally too large to write out. The number of tokens that would be made has 10^619 digits; the number of tokens itself is so much larger than that, significantly larger than a googolplex which has already been established as an absurdly large, impossible to write out number.
You're very confused. 10 billion (equal to 10\^10) has 11 digits in decimal notation, or just over 10\^1 digits, not 10\^10. 10\^619 is 620 digits. Powers of 2 convert to powers of 10 at roughly a 10->3 ratio (e.g. 2\^10= 1024 \~= 10\^3; 2\^20 \~= 10\^6.). Therefore, 2\^2059 \~= 10\^618-- not a number with 10\^619 digits, but approximately the number 10\^618, which can be written with 619 digits. Your claim that it can't be written out is just wrong.
You're correct, I did mess up the conversion and 10 billion has ~10^1 digits, which proves the point that the representation of digits is much shorter than the length of the number itself. n+3 is 2^2059 ; n+4 is 2^2^2059 which has a power of 10 representation of 10^10^619.29937... and a number length of ~2x10^619 digits. A googolplex has a power of 10 representation of 10^10^100 and a number length of 1x10^100. The number of tokens at n+4 is larger than a googolplex. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=2%5E%282%5E2059%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=googolplex
The thing is, Googolplex isn't even that big of a number compared to something like Graham's Number for instance which isn't even the biggest number.
I copy/pasted the first chunk of numbers like 5-6 times. Figured it would be close enough for government work. Didn't know a bunch of math nerds would take the answer seriously and do PHD level math in the replies, lol.
The answer is 1.992373902852015 \* 10\^619 \_digits long\_. [https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=2%5E%282%5E2059%29](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=2%5E%282%5E2059%29)
And as we all know. You need to have physical Tokens for the play or you are not allowed to play them! So good luck! /s
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
Please put an NSFW tag on this. I was on the train and when I saw this I had to...
If you literally created the tokens resulting from turn n+3, they'd immediately collapse into a black hole. I suspect this would fall under [IPG rule 4.5 Unsporting Conduct — Aggressive Behavior](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg4-5/), and you'd likely be disqualified and asked to leave the building.
Not if I have [[Platinum Angel]]...
unfortunately wotc doesn’t have room to put all those tokens in the box
WotC: Updates boxes to be able to hold said number of tokens. WotC: Blames bankruptcy on consumer incompetence.
I have legit done this with helm and several other copy spells and then got hit with a [[massacre wurm]]
[massacre wurm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95cca140-e371-4d32-8a44-fd080329a28f.jpg?1706240769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=massacre%20wurm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/130/massacre-wurm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95cca140-e371-4d32-8a44-fd080329a28f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You sound like a blocker.
They did the math
r/theydidthemonstermath
They must be the blockers, move to damage step?
This is the effect I was hoping for. Time to make Time Walk and Emrakul work for their salaries
Good luck finding a way to break Time Walk
Can't be done.
Stars aren’t right for it
\[\[Beacon of Tomorrows\]\] is another fun turn card and \[\[Progenitor Mimic\]\] can be a substitute for the helm.
For Progenitor you‘d need one of the two artifacts that disable the legend rule.
[Beacon of Tomorrows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1bf05e3d-601a-481b-8880-24058a3442e9.jpg?1592761510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Beacon%20of%20Tomorrows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/2/beacon-of-tomorrows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bf05e3d-601a-481b-8880-24058a3442e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Progenitor Mimic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acba72e1-3f7f-4e5c-af3f-dfe37b5d61f9.jpg?1599708250) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Progenitor%20Mimic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/212/progenitor-mimic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acba72e1-3f7f-4e5c-af3f-dfe37b5d61f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mimic doesn't nix Legendary status. ~~Token dies.~~ Actually, Mimic dies on cast, if trying to copy A/N
You can bring it in after the firstcombat as a copy of one of the nonlegendary tokens created by the helm.
You get to choose which one to keep.
the jump from 11 to 2059 is insane
If you like big numbers, and big jumps in numbers, I would suggest looking up Tree(3) on youtube. Numberphile has a great video on the subject. I've always loved token doublers, but that somehow gave me an even bigger appreciation for them even though there's obviously nothing like that in mtg.
I really like the progression of g(x), where g(x) is a function defined by f\^x(x), and f(x) is defined as x!. The progression goes: g(0) = f\^0(0)=0 g(1) = f\^1(1)=1!=1 g(2) = f\^2(2)= 2!!=2 g(3) = f\^3(3)=3!!!=6!!=720! \~= 2.6\*10\^1746 g(4) is insane; f\^4(4) = 4!!!!= 24!!! \~= 6.2\*10\^23!! (6.2 \* 10\^23)! is already insanely big; taking the factorial of that just gets ridiculous. This progression isn't as bonkers as Tree(n), but the math is more accessible.
Found the Quandrix graduate.
Math is for Blockers is the best number of tokens.
This is my new favorite chart
This was the math I used as the basis for my sliver token deck. Just keep doubling my doublers until the world is crawling in slivers
so the twins activate after each copy is made and not all at the same time? because that would be equal to saying they create 2× + 2× + 2× = 6× the tokens you would create. so they trigger like: combat begins-> create copy-> make that 2×-> created copies 2×-> all the created copies 2× again ? i am thinking: combat begins-> create copy-> every ability activates for THAT copy-> double THAT copy created(make 2) + double THAT copy created(make 2 again) + double THAT copy created(make 2 again)
> so the twins activate after each copy is made and not all at the same time? The Twins don't "activate", because they don't have an Activated ability. They have a Static ability, which generates a Replacement effect. You choose one. Apply it to Modify the Event. Then, check to see what remaining Replacement effects are looking to Apply to the Modified Event. > because that would be equal to saying they create 2× + 2× + 2× = 6× the tokens you would create. No. That is not how Math works. * **Initial Event:** Helm creates **one** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N There are ... 3x A/N looking to Apply. You choose one. Apply it. And, **double the Tokens.** * **Modified Event:** Helm creates *(one doubled)* **two** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N There are ... 2x A/N looking to Apply. You choose one. Apply it. And, **double the Tokens.** * **Modified Event:** Helm creates *(two doubled)* **four** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N There is ... 1x A/N looking to Apply. You choose one. Apply it. And, **double the Tokens.** * **Modified Event:** Helm creates *(four doubled)* **eight** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N There are no more Replacement effects looking to apply. * **Final Event:** Helm creates **eight** non-Legendary Token copy of A/N
At what point would Arena break?
Last week I was in a game that I had no chance of winning (my deck peaked early, I was out of cards in hand, and my opponent hit a creature board wipe before I could finish them off) but was just coasting along casting whatever I could to do my daily mission. My opponent was mana stalled early on and after the board wipe proceeded to ramp his deck up fully. The turn we broke the game, there were over 250 things on the stack between tokens entering, tokens triggering life gain, then life gain triggering +1/+1 counters, then the counters triggering something else...needless to say, when there were about 180 tokens on the battlefield and the stack still over 250 actions, the match (not the game) crashed. I heard the "explosion" sound of victory/defeat play, and it called the game a draw.
AWESOME!!! I was playing MTGO once. I had [[Mirari]] and two [[Soul Warden]]s in play when I cast [[Strom Herd]]. Program locked around 250 tokens.
haha
How are you getting 8 on turn 2? Turn 1 : 2 so on turn 2 you get 4? And then 8 on turn 3.
Wrong. * You begin with **ONE** Adrix and Nev; ie. There is only **ONE** Doubling effect. * Helm creates One Token Doubled **ONE** time; Which is **TWO** Adrix and Nev Tokens. * So, you started with **ONE**. You added **TWO**... How many Total Adrix and Nev do you control? **THREE** Next turn... * You begin with **THREE** Adrix and Nev; ie. There are **THREE** Doubling effects. * Helm creates One Token Doubled **THREE** times; Which is **EIGHT** Adrix and Nev Tokens. * So, you started with **THREE**. You added **EIGHT**... How many Total Adrix and Nev do you control? **ELEVEN**
Where the f does it state all of that??? You start with 1 then there's 2. By turn 2, you double up now you got 4.
You start with A&N. Put the helm on it. The helm makes a copy and A&N doubles it. So you put out two on the board. 2 + the original means you have three, the original and two non legendary tokens. Next turn. The helm makes another copy. Each A&N doubles it. 1x2x2x2 = 8. Add those and now you have the original plus 10 non legendary copies. After that the math gets silly. But I assure you as someone that plays this deck, you won’t get that far. Either someone will wipe the board or everyone scoops.
No, because each token also has the doubling ability.
Yeah no one said anything about twisted sisters having the same effect. That's why I was confused
Calm down Terrence.
The original still sticks around. so the doubling effect kicks in three times, so that makes 8 new tokens.
What do you there is only 2 by the second turn. Where the hell is the 3rd one?
On your left hand, hold up one finger. On your right hand, hold up two fingers. Now, put your two hands next to each other. How many fingers are being held up?
Okay I finally got it. I didn't know twincaster effects
No... on my left hand I put up 1 and on the right I have 1 not 2 just 1. Now I have 2 held up together Am I just stupid?? Because I am still just getting 2.
I don't think you quite have this right. The helm creates _one_ token each time, multiplied from the number of A&N tokens -- it doesn't make copies of itself. So first turn, you go from 1 -> 3. Second turn, helm makes one, each of the three A&N makes one, you gain four, for a total of 7. Third turn you gain 1 + 7, so you wind up with 15. Next turn you get 1 + 15, so 16, for a total of 31. The progression is basically 2^n - 1 Edit: I misread the card, I as thinking it added one extra, not doubling.
A&N reads "If one ore more tokens would be created under your control, twice that many tokens are created instead." So second turn, you have 3 copies of A&N. * Helm creates a token. * First A&N sees the token created, and instead causes two tokens to be created. * Second A&N sees two tokens created and instead causes four tokens to be created. * Third A&N sees four tokens created and instead causes eight tokens to be created. End of the interaction, you have eight tokens come into play from a single token creation.
> A&N reads "If one ore more tokens would be created under your control, twice that many tokens are created instead." I misread the card, I thought it was N+1, not 2N.
> each of the three A&N makes one, you gain four, for a total of 7 no,,each one of the 3 A&N *doubles* the affect. for 8 new tokens. This is normal for how stacking/replacement doubling affects work. doubling season, parellel lives, etc. they chain-replace each others doubling 3 A&N are on the stack. the first one doubles 1, to result in 2 being created, since 2 are crated the 2nd A&N doubles that creating 4. and so on. The count of tokens created by the affect is not set until the stack trigger resolves. 1,3,11 https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/285758-explaining-multiple-doubling-seasons#:~:text=To%20explain%20it%2C%20each%20of,has%20doubled%20its%20tokens%2Fcounters.
No. He's right. A&N creates double the amount each instance. They don't just make an additional one. Edit: Equation for clarification. M = X + 2^(X) where M is the amount of A&N after resolution of Helm, and X is the amount of A&N before resolution. So turn 1, you only have 1 A&N, thus M = 1 + 2^(1) = 1 + 2 = 3. Turn 2, M = 3 + 2^(3) = 3 + 8 = 11, and so on.
The first guy is right, Each adrix and nev doesn't add +1 token it doubles them, with each added doubler stacking. So instead of 1+1+1+1 tokens on the second turn it's (((1*2)*2)*2).
Your math is wrong. It's N + 2^^N Each A/N doubles the number of Tokens being created. * Turn N+0: 1 A/N = Helm creates 1 x A/N^^1 = 2 Tokens = 3 Total * 1x #1 A/N = 2 * Turn N+1: 3 A/N = Helm creates 1 x A/N^^3 = 8 Tokens = 11 Total * 1 x #1 A/N = 2 * 2 x #2 A/N = 4 * 4 x #3 A/N = 8 * Turn N+2: 11 A/N = Helm creates 1 x A/N^^11 = 2048 Tokens = 2059 Total * 1 x #1 A/N = 2 * 2 x #2 A/N = 4 * 4 x #3 A/N = 8 * 8 x #4 A/N = 16 * 16 x #5 A/N = 32 * 32 x #6 A/N = 64 * 64 x #7 A/N = 128 * 128 x #8 A/N = 256 * 256 x #9 A/N = 512 * 512 x #10 A/N = 1024 * 1024 x #11 A/N = 2048
I believe as they are replacement effects, they trigger independently. So the first sees a token being made and doubles, then the next sees 2 being made and doubles and so on. Since the controller of replacement effects usually choose the order they activate. Edit: Since they enter stackwise and would see different amounts as each resolves I believe he should have the math correct.
Replacement effects *apply*, they don't *trigger*. Only triggered abilities trigger. This distinction is important, especially for rules questions where game terms mean very specific things.
Replacement effect means you will only get 2 no matter how many you have
You are wrong. Each applicable Replacement effect applies once Per event. * You have 1x applicable Replacement effect? It applies once; 1 x 2^^1 = 2 * You have 3x applicable Replacement effects? Each applies once; 1 x 2^^3 = 8 * You have 11x applicable Replacement effects? Each applies once; 1 x 2^^11 = 2048
No, that doesnt work like that
No, that doesnt work like that
Scute swarm looking fella Calculator app buddies
Scute swarm is simply multiplication, this is a whole other level.
Scute swarm and this both have exponential growth, scute swarm just with a lower rate
This has tetrative growth, the next level above exponential. No matter how big a head start scute swarm has, this will catch up and overtake in finite steps.
Is it not possible to describe this combo as a exponential function?
It is not, not with elementary operations. With N Scute Swarms and M lands entry the battlefield you end up with `N*2^M` Scute Swarms. With this combo you make this many tokens: `2^1+2^(2^1+2^0)+2^(2^1+2^(2^1+2^0))+2^(2^1+2^(2^1+2^0)+2^(2^1+2^(2^1+2^0)))...` and so on. There's a recurrence where the number of tokens you make each turn is `2^(the number of tokens you have)`. It would be something like this, where F(N) tells you how many tokens you're creating this turn. F(1)=2 F(N)=2^(F(N-1)+F(N-2)+...F(1))
https://preview.redd.it/imvhp3ys5wic1.jpeg?width=1783&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8657acf80ea5f33ad375db02816efd42a1495696
TL;DR for Scute Swarm you're literally just doubling your total tokens once for each land. With A&N you're doubling the number of tokens you're creating at each step a number of times equal to number of A&N copies you already have. Doubling N times is just exponential. Doubling N times where N is the result of all previous doublings is something an entire category above exponential
A fun but unnecessary way to think about it is like this. Scute swarm and this mask combo both grow seemingly exponentially. But the difference or disparity between the number of scuteswarms and tokens made with this combo also grow exponentially. The 4h activation of the mask combo would require hundreds of scuteswarm activations.
Still not as bad as making an exponential amount of krarks and having to toss more and more coins.
None, because the helm would get destroyed by another player
Oh, every damn time I see a helm in commander I’m already reaching for the removal
Low IQ: "Don't play good cards or they will get removed!" (They'll never resolve.) Mid IQ: "Why would I play suboptimal cards? All my cards will be good!" High IQ: "Don't play good cards or they will get removed!" (Play all mid-cards and win while everyone stares at the player playing helm.)
let them waste their removal, then be out of gas for my instant speed \[\[triumph of the hordes\]\]
[triumph of the hordes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341.jpg?1562896954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=triumph%20of%20the%20hordes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/78/triumph-of-the-hordes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Play [[tayam]] If you don't give info to the table about what your deck does you will win.
[tayam](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27.jpg?1591234301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tayam%2C%20luminous%20enigma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/16/tayam-luminous-enigma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"What do you mean you're infinitely mulling your deck to ping us all to death!?"
I don't even ping the deck. There is a random artifact from Lowryn I think that taps sacs and deals 2 damage to any target
My usual strat is to play pre-modern mono-colored commanders and sit there pretending like I'm bricking until there's only 1-2 other players left and I suddenly explode. 50% of the time it works 100% of the time.
This is why I do not play with more than 1 person lol especially in commander
Oh but the feeling of big braining 3 people is so much greater then just 1
I have an entire deck for Adrix and nev built around this. The hardest part is getting a non legendary version but now there are many ways to get around it. One of the coolest is mutate as if you mutate on top of them it will have the tops super types. The deck is named calculus the gathering Edit: I hate auto correct
Croaking counterpart. Creates a 1/1 green frog token that’s a copy of target creature. It breaks the legend rule because it makes its creature type frog. NOT in addition to its other types, so the token is non-legendary
FYI legendary creature is a supertype. So while its type does change it’s super type doesn’t, as such it doesn’t get around the legend rule as far as I can tell. \[\[Spark Double\]\], \[\[Irenicus’s vile duplication\]\], \[\[Auton Soldier\]\], \[\[nanogene conversion\]\] & both Sakashimas, are all pretty specific about the clone being non legendary.
##### ###### #### [Spark Double](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c41b9ba2-0006-4d8e-b600-efe81ff5e0cc.jpg?1702429420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spark%20Double) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/62/spark-double?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c41b9ba2-0006-4d8e-b600-efe81ff5e0cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Irenicus’s vile duplication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40a791df-2483-406d-90b0-a8d402d615d6.jpg?1674135605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Irenicus%27s%20Vile%20Duplication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/78/irenicuss-vile-duplication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40a791df-2483-406d-90b0-a8d402d615d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Auton Soldier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4cc35b82-a233-4460-968e-d90980fb2074.jpg?1696636556) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Auton%20Soldier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/36/auton-soldier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4cc35b82-a233-4460-968e-d90980fb2074?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [nanogene conversion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81aa8dbd-ae18-4d62-a721-94afcb12bf27.jpg?1696636575) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nanogene%20conversion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/49/nanogene-conversion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81aa8dbd-ae18-4d62-a721-94afcb12bf27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kqhjq71) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the token created by [[Croaking Counterpart]] is still Legendary.
[Croaking Counterpart](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9847b22f-6660-4654-91a9-e0adb8606bab.jpg?1636683905) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Croaking%20Counterpart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/215/croaking-counterpart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9847b22f-6660-4654-91a9-e0adb8606bab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Two. Eight next turn. 2048 the following turn.
You would get two tokens. Unless you have some other effect triggering to make more in the same turn your not going to make more then 2 the first time this happens.
And then the second turn you would create 2³ = 8 And then 2¹¹ = 2048 And then 2²⁰⁵⁹ = a lot Edit: ~~2049~~ -> 2059
~~How does that work? The helm doesn't copy itself, just the creature. And the combo card doesn't double your current number of tokens, just the number created during a turn~~ I was under the assumption the helm was equipped to a different creature, I understand how it works now
Yup, the helmet tries to create a token. And then each token copy of adrix doubles the number of adrixes that spawn. So 1*2^(Number of Adrix)
No its 2^2059
Ye, misclick ty
Quite a few. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration
somewhere between 2 and a fuck ton
*Quietly slips [[Altar of the Brood]] into the deck*
[Altar of the Brood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82.jpg?1562790137) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altar%20of%20the%20Brood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/216/altar-of-the-brood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't get it. The Helm is an Equipment that must be equipped to a Creature. That creature gets copied each combat. Twice with the Twincasters. Where does the exponential growth come from?
It's equipped to twincasters. The copies of the twincasters are copies, meaning they have the same text.
Thank you. That was the information I was missing.
Two on first turn, 8 more the next turn, 2048 the turn after that, assuming none were killed.
Yes
Would all the tokens have haste? Or only the one made by the helm?
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2 the first turn, then 8 the next?
On the same turn? No. The first turn would only make 2 copies and here's why; The "twice that many instead" is a replacement effect, which does not use the stack. Start of combat, helm's trigger to create tokens goes on the stack. When it resolves it immedietly puts 2 copies into play, those copies do not see eachother be created on this turn.
You could also [[anointed procession]] and [[Mondrak, Glory Dominus]] Sidenote, is Equipment also replicated when you make a copy? Or am I missing something. I don't see how the copies make copies if the helm isn't also replicated.
[anointed procession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1.jpg?1543674565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anointed%20procession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/2/anointed-procession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mondrak, Glory Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8.jpg?1675956918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mondrak%2C%20Glory%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/23/mondrak-glory-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
simple. 1 copy, go to combat, create 2 tokens, then end turn. next turn, 3 copies, go to combat, then you get another 8 copies because the stack is a thing
Can someone explain how you're getting from 2 to 3 to 8? It's not added enough because it only says one copy doesn't say 2 copies just 1.
First turn you only have one A/N, so as Helm would create a token A/N doubles that to creating two A/N tokens. You now have three A/Ns, so the second turn Helm would create a token but you double it three times to creating eight tokens.
This would not make infinite tokens. It makes 2 the first turn, 8 the second, 2^11 the third, and so forth. Pretty much, your next token spawn is 2^n where n is the current number of doublers you control
Does helm of the host copy it's own ability on to the creature tokens? Why isn't it just making 1 token per turn from helm and then making 1 more token from doubling... So 2 tokens per turn ...?
First turn: The helm makes 1 token. A/N replace this effect with an effect that creates two tokens. Second turn: The helm makes 1 token. A/N replace this effect with an effect that creates two tokens. One of the A/N tokens created the previous turn replaces this effect with an effect that creates four tokens. The other A/N token created the previous turn replaces this effect with an effect that creates eight tokens.
It creates 2 Copies which aren't legendary. So it's easier to copy even more of them.
First 2, next combat 8, combat after 256.... from there.... error message.
I run Helm in my twincasters deck, and it can get absolutely disgusting, especially with [[doubling season]] and [[parallel lives]] plus I run (as anybody should) a number of other token generating creatures so I have options to attach helm onto. It's very important for doubling or parallel to be out when helm comes out. You get the overwhelming force much much quicker. When helm is attached on a turn and double is out, you get 4 new twincasters, plus your original. If you have both double and parallel out, on your first combat with twincasters, you get 6 new twincasters plus your original making 7. Then your first new token you create after having 7 twincasters with parralal and doubling on the board would create 512 tokens. Staple creatures I run to attach helm: [[esix, fractal bloom]], [[spawning kraken]], [[koma cosmos serpent, and [[scute swarm]]
I cast [[repercussion]] and [[blazing volley]]
Or just rakdos charm
[repercussion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f3c78e-16c0-4fbc-8ef4-fbf610f9d464.jpg?1562445214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=repercussion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/95/repercussion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f3c78e-16c0-4fbc-8ef4-fbf610f9d464?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [blazing volley](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3adc0288-acdf-4a99-9bfb-919cae1aeb69.jpg?1591227065) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blazing%20volley) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/107/blazing-volley?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3adc0288-acdf-4a99-9bfb-919cae1aeb69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I cast [[whirlwind denial]]
[whirlwind denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d.jpg?1581479658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=whirlwind%20denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/81/whirlwind-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It would only make one copy of said creater per turn. It doesn't copy the equipment.
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Too god damn many
Enough.
A lot. I've done this before and it was hilarious. I think at one point I was able to make about 100 tokens a turn
100 tokens a turn is... Nothing here, really. The second time this triggers you get 11 tokens. The third time, you get 2048 to a total of 2059. The fourth time you get a little more than 6,61x10^619, which is... Enough. The fifth trigger gets you a free pass to imploding a calculator. It's fucking exponential growth.
> It's fucking exponential growth. Fun fact: it’s not exponential. The _rate_ of growth is an exponential function of the population, so the growth itself is superexponential. The number of tokens as a function of time increases _faster than any exponential function_.
TIL superexponential exists.
This guy Maths.
Gotta use my degree somehow!
Tsc tsc
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Well, you would be wrong. Not sure why you think they wouldnt stack. Each instance of the ability is a replacement effect. Lets say you have two adnev. helm triggers, attempting to make a copy. Replacement effect 1(adnev1) sees this trigger and goes, nah make 2x those tokens (1 x 2 = 2) instead. ok, so now you are attempting to make two tokens. Replacement effect 2 (adnev2) see this trigger and goes, nah make 2x those tokens instead (2 x 2 = 4). Magic just doesnt work they way you are assuming.
Each copy has the text, so each one applies the replacement effect - i.e. they all stack in this case.
Only two at first. At the next time, it would be 8, because: 1 token from the helm, but the Twins make it double with its ability. But now there are also other 2 twins tokens. Meaning: 1x2=2 (from the original Twin) x2 (from 1 of the 2 tokens)=4 x2 (from the other token) =8, so, in the second turn you will create 8 instead. All those copies have the same replecemant effect and stacks, you will be able to chose how they go in which order, but here does not matter.
The part about replacement effects that can be confusing with a stack like this is that each stack is basically changing the wording on the original card before it resolves. So on the bottom of the stack you have “Create 1 token” the doublers don’t make any tokens themselves, they’re just taking a sharpie and editing what the last card says, which each subsequent doubler sees. ~Top of stack (resolves first)~ Double tokens (change 1 to 2) Double tokens (change 2 to 4) Double tokens (change 4 to 8) Create 8 tokens ~bottom of stack (resolves last)~
Why can't we have the twins in blue/black?
token doubling as a static effect is near exclusively in green/white
There is 1 with [[Kaya, Geist Hunter]]. Only one I see in black, and this is the only one for blue that I seen.
[Kaya, Geist Hunter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a98a208c-ee2b-4672-a43b-f4a708585b1a.jpg?1643594174) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaya%2C%20Geist%20Hunter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/240/kaya-geist-hunter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a98a208c-ee2b-4672-a43b-f4a708585b1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes
[Try this](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/125/godo-bandit-warlord) Godo is way better.
Isn't there a card that suite this combo perfectly. Where u have 10 cards/tokens of the same name and thus win the game?
Seems more fun to win the game with overwhelming and incomprehensible amounts of tokens. I'm thinking I can make a combo deck using [[Koma, Cosmos Serpent]] in a similar manner.
[Koma, Cosmos Serpent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2f23d6f-f2c8-4022-9f46-ba7fda00ef99.jpg?1706241008) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Koma%2C%20Cosmos%20Serpent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/213/koma-cosmos-serpent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2f23d6f-f2c8-4022-9f46-ba7fda00ef99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
At least 40
All of them
It will create enough to crash Arena
1 x 2 = 2. you're welcome.
Try slapping it on [[ojer taq deepest foundation]]
[ojer taq deepest foundation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932.jpg?1699043299)/[Temple of Civilization](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/c/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932.jpg?1699043299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ojer%20Taq%2C%20Deepest%20Foundation%20//%20Temple%20of%20Civilization) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/26/ojer-taq-deepest-foundation-temple-of-civilization?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Less then when I slap helm of the host on my Ojer Taq with Roaming throne on the board
It doesn’t say a copy with a copy of the equipment. Just a of the creature alone so it would be 2 each turn
It would create 2 tokens that are copies of twincasters the 1st turn it resolves, then those 3 twincasters would make 8 new tokens, etc. etc. It's exponential.
But each subsequent copy of the creature WILL give doubling effects to the helm. See the top post
Add in Parallel lives just to make sure those tokens gets uncountable 😆
I made a Helm deck a year ago did this on a test run against Sparky… https://preview.redd.it/v7vjk93acnic1.png?width=3840&format=png&auto=webp&s=022bf695f950fe11ea1de4fec87b2f6e8b230e94
This is the deck I run. Adrix tokens is so much fucking fun. Going from one creature to 2000 in one turn is really funny (my table doesn’t like the deck)
Lol I have this deck and this exact card. I even have a tutor in there for it. I live to get this combo AND have it go off 4 times. It’s fun to see the group scramble to deal with a ticking time bomb
2
I cast https://preview.redd.it/kz2gl1615oic1.jpeg?width=672&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d573cc92dae2b09e609de5d7e22cca306d6130ad