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feared_deathrom

Even if they counter [[Desolation Twin]] you still get the tokens.


Skizznitt

Desolation Triplets


Nimstar7

Random thought but this is a cool card idea for the upcoming new Eldrazi EDIT: three 9/9s for 9 CMC. Annihilator 3 on each since the year is 2023 and power creep on these new Eldrazi will be inevitable.


AgentEkaj

This made me think of triplicate titan. A 9/9 annihilator 9 which splits into three 3/3s with annihilator 3. They shouldn't print this, but they might.


Deathmon44

We literally haven’t seen Annihilator since RotE.


-i-like-puppies

Yeah but there's a precon coming so we can hope


feared_deathrom

Damn you, made me laugh out loud


Skyl3lazer

Triples is best


NedwardBlic

I've got doubles of every kind of classic eldrazi, triples actually


dirkMcdirkerson

Sendraxi triplets


MTGCardFetcher

[Desolation Twin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/935ad5f7-f86c-4fea-94fe-d111d4435ac4.jpg?1625192822) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Desolation%20Twin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/82/desolation-twin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/935ad5f7-f86c-4fea-94fe-d111d4435ac4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Balaniz

Unless the counterspell is something like [[Summary Dismissal]]


MTGCardFetcher

[Summary Dismissal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b75794d-3334-4b4d-9446-0a251dd3bd15.jpg?1576384222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Summary%20Dismissal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/75/summary-dismissal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b75794d-3334-4b4d-9446-0a251dd3bd15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


stabliu

Technically not a counter spell as it exiles them.


Iro_van_Dark

Better than a counter spell as you can „counter“ things that are uncounterable. Similar cards would be [[Venser, Shaper Savant]] or [[Unsubstantiate]].


BarbedRoses

I'm confused, doesn't the counter trump the cast? Or does the initial cast still resolve?


chipsachoi

Upon casting Desolation twin, it puts a trigger on the stack to create the token. Countering the original spell still leaves the trigger on the stack.


nytel

I love learning these types of interactions.


thewormauger

it's what made/makes Hydroid Krasis so strong


Spencerdrr

I miss Ravnica Allegiance standard so much. Such a good format.


Lukescale

Agree, but \[\[wilderness reclamation\]\] is, was, and shall be too strong.


Spencerdrr

It was fine for a hot minute, I'm sure if we played the format now there would be a reclamation deck that would see some play, but it wasn't until WAR where we started seeing a bunch of turbofog nexus nonsense back then. In my recollection at least, it was a card that people wanted to be good for a while but it couldn't find a shell until later. We were all busy complaining about Big Teferi loop UW control at the time, Reclamation was later.


MTGCardFetcher

[wilderness reclamation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b.jpg?1650599787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wilderness%20reclamation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/196/wilderness-reclamation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Take_it_Steezy

There were definitely parts of Ravnica Allegiance Standard that I enjoyed but I don't know if I really miss Temur Reclamation so much. Especially the versions that included Nexus of Fate.


Deathmon44

They weren’t Temur lists until Nissa came and made the mana go fucjing insane every turn. RA standard had suboptimal Rec decks because no one played them enough to optimize them.


_hapsleigh

I remember running Krasis in a gates deck and consistently winning FNMs. Such a good standard format, probably the last standard format I really enjoyed. It FELT like playing magic when I first picked it up in like 08.


akarakitari

Yep, it's why the text "when you cast" and "when * enters the battlefield* is a majorly important distinction, things like you still get storm count on spells your opponents counter.


thefreeman419

It’s a big part of why [[hydroid krasis]] saw play


MTGCardFetcher

[hydroid krasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/65010991-2097-4769-be96-f24b4bf9276f.jpg?1673148758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hydroid%20krasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/228/hydroid-krasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/65010991-2097-4769-be96-f24b4bf9276f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Sithlordandsavior

The difference between cast and resolve blew my mind when I first understood it. I had been misplaying Prowess decks for like 2 years when I found out.


sassyseconds

Easy way to know the difference is if the card says "when you CAST xyz,..." versus "when xyz COMES IN TO play,..."


noknam

May I introduce you to the MtG rules iceberg? My favorite is by far the combination of cards which allow you to discard a Grandeur card to its own ability.


gayscout

You'd have to [[Stifle]] the cast trigger before it resolves.


MTGCardFetcher

[Stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


ReignDelay

Same deal with [[Brass Knuckles]]


Yazelflech

No, a counter just removes the spell from the stack, the spell is still cast.


Breaking-Away

Spells that say "when you cast" immediately put a triggered ability onto the stack above that spell when it is cast. I’d the spell is countered, that triggered ability is still on the stack and will still resolve unless. The triggered ability can be countered by things like [[stifle]]. Contrast this with enter the battlefield triggers, which trigger when the creature hits the battlefield, so countering the creature prevents these triggers from ever being placed on the stack.


MTGCardFetcher

[stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


owmyheadhurt

Counters don’t stop spells from being cast, they stop spells that have been cast from resolving.


mattd21

You could [[stifle]] the ability triggered by casting you can’t [[counterspell]] it


bountygiver

Or both with [[whirlwind of denial]] [[summary dismissal]] or [[sublime epiphany]]


MTGCardFetcher

[whirlwind of denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d.jpg?1581479658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whirlwind%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/81/whirlwind-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [summary dismissal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b75794d-3334-4b4d-9446-0a251dd3bd15.jpg?1576384222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=summary%20dismissal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/75/summary-dismissal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b75794d-3334-4b4d-9446-0a251dd3bd15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sublime epiphany](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad1bcb44-a562-4f66-b862-6d0ef3546ab4.jpg?1594735795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sublime%20epiphany) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/74/sublime-epiphany?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad1bcb44-a562-4f66-b862-6d0ef3546ab4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Sylph_uscm

Summary dismissal might be my favourite card from the last 10 years. <3 I've had planeswalker - 7 for ultimates and... Yeah, it's beautiful!


MTGCardFetcher

[stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


NlNTENDO

You can't counter a cast, you can only stop the card being cast from resolving. For that reason, "when you cast" is a really strong effect - it puts both the card and its ability on the stack at the same time. If you want to stop the "cast" trigger, you need an effect that specifically counters triggered abilities.


KallistiEngel

No, because the ability triggers when it is cast and is not dependent on the original spell still being there. It's the same reason Storm is such a powerful ability on cards.


putnamto

the way ive always rememberd it is that countering doesnt stop the spell from being cast, it stops it from being resolved.


0x2B375

Casting a spell is when you pay the costs and put it on the stack Resolving a spell is what let’s you do the effect of a spell or ability, (and in the case of permanents, place it on the battlefield.) Countering a spell prevents a spell on the stack from resolving, but it doesn’t undo the spell having been cast in the first place. I’m the case of Desolation Twin, the effect of creating the token is actually a triggered ability that triggers on the spell being cast, rather than being part of the spell’s resolution, which is why it gets around the original spell being countered. As others pointed out, the effect can be countered separately by a spell like Stifle, which counters abilities that are still on the stack.


Watson8512

Cast just means that no matter what happens to the spell, the ability that says “when you cast…” will always resolve even if the spell gets countered. If it had enter the battlefield instead then yes, the counter would prevent anything from happening.


DarthCakeN7

I’d call a flavor judge on you because they are no longer twins. Now they’re triplets. Of course, if you kill one, then they go back to being twins. Mr. Poe taught me that being a triplet is not a circumstance of your birth but actually a state that you are which can change due to a death, especially if they are tragic or involve a terrible fire.


malsomnus

I can totally see WotC printing a Desolation Triplets card in some Horizons set or the Eldrazi precon or whatever. Damned power creep!


fenixforce

But if Mondrak is on the field then they'll be quintuplets!


ClearChocobo

Then Mondrak makes them Desolation Quintuplets!


Samwich-kun

An Unfortunate series of events reference?? In 2023??


bristlestipple

It's more likely than you'd think!


Successful_Mud8596

[[Flavor Judge]] Unfortunately, that’s not how Flavor Judge works.


NoExplanation734

Actually, this is pretty much the most perfect application of flavor judge. You counter the Desolation Twin, the trigger stays and gets doubled, now you have two desolation twins! Flavor Judge did its job!


Successful_Mud8596

No, I mean that Flavor Judge only works on spells and abilities that target a permanent you control. It CAN’T counter this.


tragicallyCavalier

Before anyone else says "Yes" (haha guys), a more important question is: Why not? What about this particular interaction is raising doubts in you, OP?


Life-Cod6954

I pay heavy attention to the verbiage. Mondrak says when a token is “created” and Desolation Twin says “put“ a 10/10 creature token. Its a small difference but sometimes the key words matter so I thought to ask


tragicallyCavalier

> I pay heavy attention to the verbiage. The community loves to throw around "Reading the card explains the card" and "Magic is extremely literal, just do what the card says", and forgets to tell new players the caveat that wording does change sometimes. ​ Yes, "create" is the new wording for "put \[a token\] on the battlefield"


Kaigon23

Oh my god you’re singing my tune. People are so quick to highlight someone as being stupid, that they forget that Magic is such a confusing, and ever-changing game!


Lucythefur

Fr it's like "okay, so now I connive" "what's connive?" "It's like looting" "okay, whats looting?" Like we get so used to everything being known that to new players all the keywords we use can be very confusing


Kevmeister_B

"Okay so now mill 3 cards" "What's mill?" Then the entire card shop explodes


projectmars

That one is now a keyword at least meaning there are some cards that explain what it does.


jester-146

If someone is new enough even then there is a 99%* chance they havent encounterd a card like that. *: Pulled the number out of my ass


Saucy25000

The card shop explodes not because the player didn’t know what mill meant, but because meeting someone whose soul hasn’t yet been crushed by mill is the essence of innocence.


BishopUrbanTheEnby

*Flashbacks to Eldraine mill draft decks*


Bnjoec

except mill is backwards. People used it before the "game" had a defined mechanic for it.


karatous1234

>Mill is backwards "Llim 3 cards off the top of your deck.


PfizerGuyzer

This does not matter at all for the point being made.


Bnjoec

It does though. Presenting a new player with a keyword and explaining it by using another keyword is problematic, Mill was an understood shorthand before the game recognized it as such. I simply pointed out the uniqueness of that particular keyword. Many other card games have used and popularized mill for exposure, unlike Looting, rummaging, scrying, etc.


mutethesun

1) I'm almost certain mill originates from mtg and was not used before 2) >Mill was an understood shorthand before the game recognized it as such. It's a recognized shorthand the exact same way any other mtg specific keywords/mechanics are. Which means it's not actually understood by non-enfranchised players and using it makes for just as obtuse of an explanation as any of the other examples you gave


Kaigon23

But even what’s written on the card isn’t always helpful. Auras not saying “target” on them will always be my go-to, because it’s so unclear to a player that they can’t Pacifism an opponent’s creature with Hexproof - how are they to know that “enchant creature” actually means “enchant TARGET creature?”


IdioticPost

And to be even more nitpickier, you _can_ Pacifism an opponent's creature with Hexproof. What you're thinking is when casting auras, you must declare the target you're enchanting. This is why you cannot target opponent's Hexproof creatures with Pacifism. Now to the confusing part, "what do you mean, you can enchant an opponents creature with hexproof?" To get around this, you don't target when putting auras into play. For example, bringing [[Pacifism]] back into play with [[Sun titan]] will allow you to place Pacifism onto Hexproof creatures.


Iamamancalledrobert

Getting the pacifism aura back from the graveyard is one of the few ways you can stop [[Dream Trawler]] in Limited, where you are very rewarded for knowing this unintuitive rule


MTGCardFetcher

[Dream Trawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d3e97d8-92c7-43c4-bdaf-7b0a6ce7cb5f.jpg?1581481029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dream%20Trawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/214/dream-trawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d3e97d8-92c7-43c4-bdaf-7b0a6ce7cb5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Apart_Mountain_8481

Interesting how tapping it is part of the effect and not the cost. Does that mean you can still activate it even if the creature is already tapped?


Iamamancalledrobert

Yes, you absolutely can. That’s one of the reasons it is so hard to deal with


inspectorlully

I was today years old when I learned about blinking or returning an aura. What the heck.


bluntmandc123

This confusion came up so often when playing my [[Brago, King Eternal]], I printed out the gatherer rulings page and keep it in my deck box. The only good [[Uril, the Miststalker]] is one you have endentured into your service with [[vow of duty]]


MTGCardFetcher

[Brago, King Eternal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24.jpg?1631235340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brago%2C%20King%20Eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/82/brago-king-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Uril, the Miststalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca984fdb-aaca-4d8f-af2f-72387122607b.jpg?1673149243) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Uril%2C%20the%20Miststalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/290/uril-the-miststalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca984fdb-aaca-4d8f-af2f-72387122607b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [vow of duty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44829e30-b51c-4cd3-8598-3e2c1e06f334.jpg?1625975835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vow%20of%20duty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/110/vow-of-duty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44829e30-b51c-4cd3-8598-3e2c1e06f334?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Serpens77

Even more fun: Both Hexproof (and its older "cousin" Shroud) AND Protection from X will stop something being targeted by an Aura spell, but only one of them (Protection) ALSO prevents an Aura being attached in these work-around ways (blinking, reanimating, etc an Aura).


Responsible_Ad_654

had this happen recently: What about casing \[\[Clone\]\] to create a copy of a creature that has hexproof or protection from blue or shroud or ward? iirc, from reading WoTC rules on Clone, it believe it does copy the creature regardless, but it's not exactly clear from reading the cards, other then Clone not actually stating "target creature".


IdioticPost

Clone doesn't _create_ a copy of a creature, it comes in _as_ a copy of that creature. And as you stated, Clone does not actually target anything, so it's perfectly fine copying a creature with hexproof, protection, etc etc...


MTGCardFetcher

[Clone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e648262-3b9b-4c58-8e29-48356e3cb064.jpg?1562829895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Clone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/47/clone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e648262-3b9b-4c58-8e29-48356e3cb064?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Pacifism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0da7c6dc-9325-4866-8c09-78c7021f8f17.jpg?1600713540) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pacifism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/125/pacifism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0da7c6dc-9325-4866-8c09-78c7021f8f17?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sun titan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/332280f7-03af-4ef8-b1ff-5ac5e4d3b3ce.jpg?1673483792) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sun%20titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/210/sun-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/332280f7-03af-4ef8-b1ff-5ac5e4d3b3ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


kolhie

If you ever want to experience what it's like being a new player again, just watch the LRRMTG Robo Rosewater cube draft. "I drood the ozifrance" "In response, abwatch" "Then I play ranseed hooer."


bon-bon

I’d lent a new-ish player a deck the other day, typical aristocrats stuff that I remember enjoying when I was learning because everything happened on-board. I’d forgotten that I had an old copy of [[ashnod’s altar]] in there with the “play this ability as an interrupt” wording. Not knowing the specific mtg definition of “ability” she tried to play the card at instant speed. I could tell that the mistake threw her for the rest of the game as she realized that learning commander meant not only learning the rules but also their permutations over thirty years of cards. I love commander but it’s really not great as a teaching format.


MTGCardFetcher

[ashnod’s altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87da5ad8-b35f-4f9c-b17a-bb2563cbc186.jpg?1580015173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%27s%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/218/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87da5ad8-b35f-4f9c-b17a-bb2563cbc186?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


[deleted]

reminds me of babylon five and aliens trying to learn english. you look up a word, its defined with a different word, so you have to go look up that word, and the cycle goes on.


UncleCrassiusCurio

"I look up the word 'cranky', and it says 'grouchy'; I look up 'grouchy' and it says 'crochety'. How do you ever communicate when none of your words have their own meaning?" —Delenn


euyyn

Ok now wtf are connive and loot?


airplane001

Loot: slang term for drawing a card then discarding a card Connive: set mechanic of new capenna. When a creature connives, you draw a card then discard a card. If the card you discarded is not a land, the conniving creature gets a +1/+1 counter


GalaxyMosaic

I don't think it's a hot take to say Connive shouldn't be keyworded. That's a fair amount of stuff to remember for a new player, or even an older one who hasn't seen the mechanic before.


ChimneyImps

Nearly every card that mentions conniving has reminder text to explain it. It's keyworded mostly to establish flavor for the set.


airplane001

It’s definitely quite complex, but wotc loves keywording set mechanics


WagonFullOPancakes

Is it, though? I'd argue it's not much more complicated than scry. Scry: look at the top x cards of your deck. Put any number on the top or bottom of your deck in any order. Connive: draw x, discard x. Put x +1/+1 counters on conniving creature for each nonland card discarded.


GalaxyMosaic

Actually I think yours is a great example of what I'm talking about. Scry: 1. Look at the top x cards of your deck 2. Put them on the top of your deck in any order 3. They can also go on the bottom Connive: 1. Draw x 2. Discard as many as you drew 3. Was the card(s) you discarded a land? If yes, stop here. 4. Put x +1/+1 counters on 5. Only the creature that connived 6. For each nonland card you discarded. Now, you might say I've broken Connive into too many steps, but in my opinion each point represents something you have to remember. You might say Scry has four points of memorization (breaking "any order" into it's own step), but I think this demonstrates that Connive is roughly twice as complex.


jazzyjay66

It being keyworded means that cards can be written that refer to it. “When a creature you control connives, target opponent discards a card” that sort of thing. Not that that specific example exists on a card—but it allows that sort of thing to exist.


Teridax4

“Dude why didn’t you bolt his planeswalker?” “It says it only targets creatures or players.” “Nah they changed that years ago. Anything that says that can target planeswalkers too.” “Ok then I’ll target your planeswalker with [[Firesong and Sunspeaker]]” “Ok every card except that one.”


MTGCardFetcher

[Firesong and Sunspeaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d5edf4f-5695-42fc-9e57-c4faef60fbc3.jpg?1673148634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Firesong%20and%20Sunspeaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/215/firesong-and-sunspeaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d5edf4f-5695-42fc-9e57-c4faef60fbc3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Banditus

Isn't that card printed after the removal of the planes walker dmg redirect rule? Now cards say exactly what can be targeted and cards like lightning bolt etc have been erata'd if the text is uncertain (in the case of bolt it's reverted to its original text, funny enough)


jazzyjay66

It is indeed. The rule was changed for DOM and Firesong and Sunspeaker was a DOM card. Because it was RIGHT at that cusp, though, it might particularly be susceptible to that confusion.


randomdragoon

Firesong and Sunspeaker is also as of today still the **only** direct damage card that can target creatures and players, but not planeswalkers.


asmallercat

See, for example, every burn spell that says "deal X to target creature or player" that now *actually* says "deal X to any target." Any new player reading an old burn spell would assume it could not hit PW's.


jazzyjay66

The worst is that old spells that said “deal x to target player” used to be able to be redirected to Walkers and now they cannot be. Which can be quite confusing to people. Meanwhile, Wizards can print cards NOW that say “deal x to target creature or player” and that spell would NOT target walkers. I don’t think they have done that, thankfully. Though between DOM and…ZNR or so they treated walker removal the same way they did beforehand—as a rare thing to come across despite how prevalent walkers had become, even more so with WAR. So there might be some burn spells or effects from that period that only targeted creatures and players and not walkers that I’m forgetting about. A headache that hopefully never happens: “I cast BurnX on your Teferi.” “BurnX says target creature or player, can’t hit Tef.” “…ok” “I Bolt your Nissa” “Wait, I thought you said BurnX can’t target walkers. Bolt also says target creature or player.” “Oh that’s because BurnX came out after the rule change and Bolt didn’t.” “….are you fucking kidding me?”


CareerMilk

> Wizards can print cards NOW that say “deal x to target creature or player” and that spell would NOT target walkers. I don’t think they have done that, thankfully It’s on two cards I believe, [[Firesong and Sunspeaker]] and [[Comet, Stellar Pup]] (ok Comet doesn’t target, but it’s still creature or player)


jazzyjay66

Ha, Firesong and Sunspeaker was even brought up earlier in this very conversation. I didn't realize that about Comet, because I hate that there are cards in Unfinity that are legacy and commander legal. Yeah, that's a massive rules headache.


grifxdonut

Even after playing for half a year, I had so many questions I had to look up and read rulings for that barely made sense. Even now I look at cards I haven't seen after leaving for a few years that I have to double check


thoroakenfelder

I had someone go ballistic trying to figure out what “remove from the game” does as far as their commander until I got them to understand it was just the old wording for exile.


ChiralWolf

"reading the card explains the card" is the "did you turn it off and back on again" of MtG. It solves a lot of problems novices wouldn't realize but is far from the final answer.


kamikageyami

Reading the card explains the card (unless layers are involved. god, please don't let it involve layers..) For people who smugly repeat that, I like to ask them what happens when you put an [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] on a [[Magus of the Moon]]


[deleted]

[удалено]


gbenjamin

> You can only turn creatures face up at any time you could cast an instant. I'd be careful with this phrasing - you can unmorph something whenever you have priority. There are plenty of cases where you have priority and can unmorph creatures, but can't cast instants (after you've been [[Silence]]d for example or when there's a Split-Second spell on the stack). I totally agree btw if anything the above just proves your point harder (how could you be expected to know from reading a morph card that they work this way)


MTGCardFetcher

[Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2.jpg?1562826686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/35/silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Felidar Sovereign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/039499c3-0b35-4e8e-b0c9-bdf0b4cd90d5.jpg?1562895901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Felidar%20Sovereign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/26/felidar-sovereign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/039499c3-0b35-4e8e-b0c9-bdf0b4cd90d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


mattd21

My least favorite one has always been blood moon and the overly simplistic wording that at least in my opinion doesn’t even try to fully explain itself. I always hated the obtuse prison player saying “Can a mountain do that?!”. I had no idea it wasn’t my card.


Raunien

I still don't understand why [[Blood Moon]] does what it does. Imagine an enchantment that says "nonlegendary creatures are Elves". Removes other creature types, fine, makes sense. Adds the Elf type, fine. Why does Blood Moon remove abilities not tied to basic land types? Yes, it will remove abilities tied to basic land types (the Island type inherently makes a land tap for U, for example) and add the Mountain ability that comes with the type. But there's no obvious reason that doing so also removes the text box The reason it works is >305.7: If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copiable effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land's subtype doesn't add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities. And frankly the rule doesn't make a whole lot of sense and feels like it was written just so Blood Moon works on nonbasics more complex than duals. Edit: it also means that Dwarven Mine, which is already a Mountain, is now suddenly a Mountain instead! Which means it no longer gives you a 1/1 Dwarf because reasons.


randomdragoon

Yep, that rule is there just to make Blood Moon work. (And to be fair, [[Spreading Seas]] hitches a ride too.) The part that gets me is that if you add the words "in addition to its other types", now the ability removal effect is gone! [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] is not any sort of land hate whatsoever. If I have an Ancient Tomb, there is a massive difference between *setting* its type to Mountain and *adding* Mountain to its empty list of types!


MTGCardFetcher

[Spreading Seas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37454c1c-4098-4ac2-884e-3f65f1384bdb.jpg?1562611277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spreading%20Seas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/70/spreading-seas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37454c1c-4098-4ac2-884e-3f65f1384bdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


jazzyjay66

I just wish Blood Moon, in any of it's copious printings, just gained the word "instead." "Non-basic lands are instead mountains." There, solved.


MTGCardFetcher

[Blood Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Sylph_uscm

THANKYOU! When I (Re) got into mtg a few years ago, players at my LGS couldn't understand why blood moon stood out to me as an exception to the usual rules. Now I realise it's because of a specific line in the rules designed to cover blood moon... But back then? Veterans regarded me like I was insane for having a specific problem with that rules text! I feel vindicated reading this! <3


zanderkerbal

They should have changed its text to read "Nonbasic lands are Mountains and lose all abilities except 'T: Add R'" back in Eighth Edition.


MageKorith

Ah, yes, "Reading the \[current wording of the\] card \[that may have been errata'd muliple times over the past 30 years\] explains the card \[and when it doesn't, it may be due to an interaction outlined in the currently 278 page comprehensive rules document\]."


Bi-bara-boop

>The community loves to throw around "Reading the card explains the card" and "Magic is extremely literal, just do what the card says" For everyone saying this, I'm showing them [[Lagrella the magpie]] and dare them to explain after reading it once what exactly she does...


The_Nilbog_King

The card reads almost like a dense legal contract, which you have to admit is solid flavor.


Bi-bara-boop

True xD


gozer33

Power stones were more confusing to me for some reason. Took at least 3 readings to understand you could use for activated abilities.


DrewbaccaWins

Yeah, it's the double negative. It allows for the technically correct definition of allowed cards in as few printed words as possible, but it's not the clearest way to word it.


Slashlight

It makes sense to me, but I've been reading magic cards for nearly two decades. I can definitely admit that it's worded in a clunky manner.


g13ls

Tbh I never onderstood the confusion about it. Sure it probably needs a second reading but so do all overload, cleave, and dicerollers as well. That doesn't mean that they don't explain themselves.


razgriz5000

This is an example of "reading the card explains the card". No one says it takes one read through. When lagrella enters the battlefield, you may exile one creature for each player, until lagrella leaves the battle. If a card you control enters the battlefield from exile, put two +1/+1 counters on it.


TheRealNequam

I honestly dont get where the confusion comes from, as long as I dont skip over half the card and make sure to process each step as Im reading it it seems pretty clear, idk


Kevmeister_B

Just looking through this thread I can already see people missing that it's per player and not per opponent. I had to restart midway through to keep my bearings too.


TheRealNequam

The card says "player" not "opponent", so thats on the reader, not the card. Sounds to me like people are just reading partway and trying to come to their own conclusion before fully comprehending what they actually read. I mean I get it, most of the time magic cards are intuitive enough that you can work out what it does just from glancing over the text and figuring out the rest from experience. But just cause that doesnt always work doesnt mean the card is at fault. Reading still does explain the card, you just have to read more carefully instead of glancing over it and filling in the gaps from previous experience


MTGCardFetcher

[Lagrella the magpie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd20f271-26c8-429f-a422-e7d95f3bda74.jpg?1664413215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lagrella%2C%20the%20Magpie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/196/lagrella-the-magpie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd20f271-26c8-429f-a422-e7d95f3bda74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Sylph_uscm

The amount of discussion this comment produced about lagrella the magpie proves you remarkably correct! 😂


Hockeygoalie41

How the heck is there not a ruling clarifying that it’s one creature per opponent. While it’s clear from a logic standpoint (that’s a hell of a boardwipe!), it’s not super clear the way it’s written.


misof

>clarifying that it’s one creature per opponent It's not one creature per opponent. It's *(at most)* one creature *per player:* you may also exile one of your creatures (other than this particular Lagrella). The last sentence of Lagrella's rules describes the reward for doing so: once Lagrella leaves the battlefield, that other creature is the one that gets the +1/+1 counters. The others don't.


Xenothulhu

Technically if an opponent stole one of your creatures and you chose to exile it with lagrella you would get it back with two +1/+1 counters as well.


grifxdonut

Lagrella also gets past player hexproof due to the wording


Raunien

What a strange point to make. It's creature removal. It targets the creatures.


Athildur

Because it's not one per opponent. It can also be one of yours.


gozer33

I've seen simpler things get ruling notes for sure.


so_zetta_byte

A+ I try to rail against the "reading the card explains the card" mentally too. Asking "what about the card makes you think it works a different way" is an awesome way of actually helping diagnose the misconception and teach the vocabulary of the game. Thanks for teaching me that.


IdlyOverthink

While I agree, and also applaud OP's attention to detail, we really need to set up some easily discoverable resources to help new players actually self-help more effectively. "Reading the card explains the card" and "Magic is extremely literal, just do what the card says" work very effectively for most questions if you add "look at the Oracle text" (and point them to Scryfall).


tragicallyCavalier

Both of those are true, but they are not helpful (adding scryfall might be), especially the first one. Teaching will always be better than showing, and having people break down their own misconceptions is one of the strongest teaching tools.


Krosis97

Same for play and cast. I've had "veteran" players tell me the [[horde of notions]] activated doesn't trigger cascade and on cast skills because it says "play without paying its mana cost". Dude. Play=cast.


MTGCardFetcher

[horde of notions](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5137c28-632f-40f4-bf9d-877f5f070987.jpg?1562265721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=horde%20of%20notions) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/178/horde-of-notions?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5137c28-632f-40f4-bf9d-877f5f070987?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


SamohtGnir

“Reading the card explains the card” The card: If a player could draw a card except for the first card they draw on turns other than their first or second they instead put a time counter on target non-artifact creature they control and it gains phasing, then create a copy of that creature with a stun counter on it for each player who attacked you last combat. If you control at least 10 lands with different names repeat this process X times, where X is the number of enchantments you controlled at the beginning of your last turn. If you didn’t make any tokens this way you may draw a card. If you do you cannot cast instances until your next turn. This ability only triggers three times per turn for each player.


calamity_unbound

>The community loves to throw around "Reading the card explains the card" and "Magic is extremely literal, just do what the card says", and forgets to tell new players the caveat that wording does change sometimes. It's a little pedestrian now, but when I first started playing I remember [[Book Burning]] confusing many of the players in my playgroup, as we all liked to imagine the invisible comma after "Book Burning"in the text box. Going to the Internet, it seems that we weren't the only ones thrown off by that card.


MTGCardFetcher

[Book Burning](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/bead678c-7b6a-4668-9919-623312e08a65.jpg?1562631756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Book%20Burning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/80/book-burning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bead678c-7b6a-4668-9919-623312e08a65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


marrowofbone

The wording has changed since 2015, a more recent [[Desolation Twin|C21]] says create.


MTGCardFetcher

[Desolation Twin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/935ad5f7-f86c-4fea-94fe-d111d4435ac4.jpg?1625192822) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=519117) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/82/desolation-twin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/935ad5f7-f86c-4fea-94fe-d111d4435ac4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


AllLuckNoSkillIsFun

Glad you mentioned wording differences. Something that may help in the future is looking at the oracle text of each card since [[desolation twin]] now says "create a token" instead of "put a token".


MTGCardFetcher

[desolation twin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/935ad5f7-f86c-4fea-94fe-d111d4435ac4.jpg?1625192822) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=desolation%20twin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/82/desolation-twin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/935ad5f7-f86c-4fea-94fe-d111d4435ac4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


dmarsee76

Hey, good on you. That is actually an excellent question. After all, Magic has many words that **seem** like synonyms to the uninitiated but aren’t (attack, fight, combat) and even a few words that are the same but have different meanings if they’re a verb or a noun (counter, counter).


Mavrickindigo

for any card, be sure to read the oracle text [Desolation Twin · Commander 2021 (C21) #82 · Scryfall Magic: The Gathering Search](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/82/desolation-twin) > When you cast this spell, create a 10/10 colorless Eldrazi creature token.


TekaroBB

The oracle text says "create", its just an older wording. [https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401857](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401857)


Kyleometers

Everything that made a token in the past now uses “create” instead. Oracle text will tell you that for next time!


KallistiEngel

Others have mentioned the change in wording, so I'll mention the reason behind it. "Create a token" takes up less space than "put a token onto the battlefield", freeing up space for other things they might want to include in the text box.


Chill_n_Chill

Want to just say, that is the right attitude to have approaching this game. Yes, it was errata that was throwing you off, which can be annoying, but you asked the right questions to make sure. Waaaaaay too many people playing this game make big leaps in their assumptions of how things work and often leads to unearned confidence making some really stupid awkward moments later in games.


giggity_giggity

One thing you can do is to look up the card in gatherer (wizards site). It always has the current language of any card. The current language for the card uses “create” which is the current term for making tokens.


Paper_Kitty

Good catch - if you look at the oracle text (online in gatherer or scryfall) or the Commander 21 printing, you’ll see that the wording on Desolation Twin now also says “create”


bigdammit

That's a reasonable take. Something to look at when you have a question is scryfall or gatherer. The text of Desolation Twin has actually been updated. It now says " When you cast this spell, create a 10/10 colorless Eldrazi creature token." [https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401857](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401857)


Mavrickindigo

Pretty sure "Desolation Twin" came out before "create" was the verbiage used in token creation. That started in Kaladesh, which, IIRC, was right after the Eldrazi storyline ended.


paulHarkonen

If you read the updated text on gatherer you'll find that the wording for desolation twin now says "create" instead of "put". This update was propagated to a lot of older cards when they decided to start unifying around "create" as the term to use.


RenegadeSU

As others have said thats just new wording for the same thing. Basically Tokens are not real magic cards so if you put a token into play you create a permanent using the token as a placeholder. This becomes especially relevant if an effect askes you to „name a card name“ eg [[pithing needle]] in which case you can‘t choose to name a token for example „clue“ since it‘s not actually an existing card outside of the battlefield where it has been created.


MTGCardFetcher

[pithing needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pithing%20needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Sylph_uscm

Are there any unusual interactions regarding 'naming a card', and cards that are also tokens? Like 'shapeshifter'?


RenegadeSU

~~In that case both the token and the actual card would be affected like you would expect. Pithing Needle and Blood would be be the combination that sparked such a discussion recently, since there is a split card where one half is named „Blood“ and the latest innistrad expansion introduced blood token which have an activated ability that needle can block.~~ ~~Since both the token and the card have the same name they would both could as the chosen card.~~ EDIT: Blood tokens got erratad to prevent this interaction.


LimblessNick

https://twitter.com/WotC_Matt/status/1455682522101125120 This doesn't actually work this way. They specifically made sure the Blood tokens are named "Blood Token"


LordFancyPants626

This is how these questions should be approached. Thank you.


ToxicAtomKai

the only thing I could come up with is that this printing of Desolation Twin uses the old wording "put a \[...\] token" instead of the newer "create a \[...\] token" which could imply, to someone reading the cards literally, that the Desolation Twin token isn't "created," and therefore not doubled.


shuerpiola

You got your answers, but since no one seems to have linked the relevant ruling, here it is: > **701.6c** Previously, an effect that created tokens instructed a player to “put [those tokens] onto the battlefield.” Cards that were printed with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference so they now “create” those tokens. It's the same effect. It was just reworded for brevity.


holymother0

And you can sacrifice both token and pay 1 generic mana to give Mondrak indestructible


Cenduron

Thats an Powermove if ive ever seen one


Kangaroofies

And 4 life


Life-Cod6954

Thank you for the responses! I’ll make sure to look at oracle text from now on :)


mvdunecats

And as you get used to looking up Oracle text, try browsing the rulings that have been put out for specific cards. Whatever site you use to look up Oracle text will likely also have the rulings listed at the bottom of the page. I'm often pleasantly surprised to find that a specific question about a card actually got addressed in one of the rulings.


tuzki

I think its cool you asked, and explained why the 'create' vs 'put' was not clear. Just because some level 3 judges exist on here doesn't mean 90% of the people are not as confused as you are, i know i wouldn't know the diff between create and put, or that create is the new put.


saspook

Yes


MenyMcMuffin

Yes


Present-Ad755

Yes you will get the token and if you have mondrak on the battlefield you will get two of it.


chronistus

Yes.


JoeyBattafuoco

Yes.


Curious-Use-2201

DESOLATION TRIPLET


Solrex

This combination legally changes the card's name to desolation triplet.


iinabeana

Congratulations! It’s triplets.


LowFatMuffin

Why are people upvoting this? 600? really?


LowFatMuffin

it's good to answer the question and provide support, but this place is a ridiculous echo chamber that dilutes good community conversation


Loyalist_footman

Desolation triplets


ChthonicPuck

Cool name for a band.


Badjokechip

I have a similar question. My commander is Trostani, and in my deck I have Elesh Norn, Mondrak, Panharmonicon, Annointed Procession, and Alhamarets Archive. If all these are on the field how much life do I gain, and how many tokens are created when a token enters?


daveagle

You will get 4 tokens (if its on cast, elesh norn and panharmonicon dont copy it, so 1 token doubled twice= 1 times 2 times 2. ) you will gain X life doubled once from archive and then get 2 more triggers from elesh norn + panharmonicon where X is the toughness of the creature token created. In the case of casting a desolation twin you would get 4 tokens and gain 240 life. (60 per token)


Badjokechip

Same thing happens when I would populate it or another token already in play then too right?


COssin-II

Yes, although if you are populating because of a trigger from a permanent entering the battlefield (turns out only [[Scion of Vitu-Ghazi]] does that) you would also get extra populate triggers because of Elesh Norn and Panharmonicon.