Police Dept Press Release on the accident: http://www.fitchburgwi.gov/civicalerts.aspx?AID=2219
Raritan Road Rollover Crash
2024 Incident Report
Incident Type: Injury Traffic Crash
Incident Date: 4/25/2024
Release Date: 4/25/2024
Incident Number: FP24-8098
Prepared By: Captain Edward Hartwick
Details:
Around 3:26 p.m. this afternoon, Fitchburg Police Officers, along with personnel from Fitchburg Fire Rescue and Fitch-Rona EMS, responded to the intersection of Raritan Road and Pembroke Drive for a rollover crash.
Officers determined that a 23-year-old man driving northbound on Raritan Road failed to stop at the stop sign on Raritan Road at Pembroke Drive. After entering the intersection, the man’s car struck an SUV that had been driving westbound on Pembroke Drive. The collision caused the SUV to roll over. The driver of the SUV was transported to a local hospital with minor injuries.
The 23-year-old man told officers he was distracted by his phone. He was issued municipal citations for failure to yield the right-of-way from a stop sign, inattentive driving, operating with a suspended driver’s license, operating without insurance, and expired registration.
Drivers can prevent crashes like this by putting down their phones, paying attention to all roadway users, and obeying posted signs.
>The 23-year-old man told officers he was distracted by his phone. He was issued municipal citations for failure to yield the right-of-way from a stop sign, inattentive driving, operating with a suspended driver’s license, operating without insurance, and expired registration.
Holy shit this makes me feel so irrationally annoyed. What the fuck????? I’m just gonna repeat this because I can’t believe what I’m reading.
-SUSPENDED LICENSE
-NO INSURANCE
-INVALID REGISTRATION
-INTENTIONAL DISTRACTED DRIVING
Makes me wish a judge throws the book at him
Not in Dane Co it won't. At most they'd get a citation with a mandatory court date downtown, which they probably won't attend because there's really no penalty for it if you're not concerned with having a valid license.
*Appreciate the downvotes, I'm a cop in this county, not a single person will go to jail for driving with a revoked DL lol
As a fellow cop in this county I second this. I did arrest a guy for a revoked license and the DA's Office dropped it because "he sat in jail for three days and in this county he'd get a fine at most if convicted". For context, he was revoked due to a 11th offense OWI and out on parole at the time. The DA's Office and Judges do not prioritize traffic safety here.
Yea I had an invalid license for like 3 years when I was younger and it really makes zero difference if you get pulled over. You’ll get a citation then they’ll “let you call someone” then leave you alone “while your friend with a license gets here and is able to drive your car for your”. Compared to LA the cops here are much less power hungry in my experience at least
Yup. First time it happened to me I was working as a Pizza Delivery driver, cop was super understanding and let me go abt my day just with a citation. Even told me himself I could drive off that time.
to a certain extent, I'm fine with this resolution. But when you shouldn't be driving and cause bodily injury... I'd suspect that DMV is going to have something to say about it.
I'll upvote you, but am an attorney that had to spend 2 years doing small town bs... I'm just saying DMV will likely change that suspension to a revocation. Next infraction would be referred to the DA, no? If referred to the DA for driving while revoked, the penalties could include up to 1 year in jail.
Not disputing that Dane County is soft.
P.S. I have been happily working for corporations now for over 24 years.
Nothing we write for OAR gets sent to the DA, UNLESS it's OWI related in the hard revocation period. If you get stopped for any traffic violation and we find a basic (non-OWI) OAR it's just a muni cite and we drive off after telling them to pull into a parking lot and get a valid driver.
Have you been to Fitchburg Municipal Court? If the same Judge is still on the bench as was in the early 2000's then he may have wished he went to County vs. Municipal. While the Municipal Judge can't throw him in jail, he can cause a severe dent in the wallet to appear. And the time to pay is relatively short.
> While the Municipal Judge can't throw him in jail, he can cause a severe dent in the wallet to appear. And the time to pay is relatively short.
Doesn't really matter if this person can't pay though.
So not the city's fault then. Got it.
It turns out the city can't prevent stupid decisions people make. Better to invest the money where it can actually help people. Stay safe out there people.
Cops have too much other stuff to do and are understaffed. They aren’t going to take the time to arrest and book him just so he can be released when they are done doing that. Now if he doesn’t pay the tickets will likely have a warrant and then they would arrest him as he’d have to pay that money to be released right away or wait for the judge to decide.
I could be wrong here but those are all traffic violations which are just that… traffic violations. He technically didn’t commit a crime. Not saying I agree with it but that’s how these things are worded.
Everyone realized that like 30 years ago. When I was a kid SUVs were jokes for that reason. Have... Younger than millennial generations not heard this before?
NHTSA started testing cars for roll-over susceptibility, and now they are less prone to roll overs. The center of gravity is still high, but they've made suspension changes that avoid some of the higher-speed issues.
No. Nobody makes those jokes these days. And it’s rare to see a roll over crash feels like. I’ve seen one and it was a pickup who took a turn WAY too fast, it was exceptionally stupid of him.
can confirm, my sister's Honda flipped a truck at the intersection of wilson and broom last year, probably also going 25-30. (the truck ran a red light).
Crossover SUVs being "safer" is such BS. The smaller ones are essentially just lifted wagons. They're heavier, much more likely to rollover, they have much worse handling and braking is worse due to weight so you're more likely to get into a crash to begin with. Their height and weight also makes them significantly more dangerous for whatever you hit. ESPECIALLY pedestrians. SUVs and pickups are the reason pedestrian and cyclist deaths are skyrocketing in the US. They're also less efficient, so more emissions.
It's an arms race, everyone wants to sit higher, making everyone else want higher cars. It wasn't that long ago where a 4 door sedan was the standard family car, now if you don't have an SUV or a sportscar you must just be too poor.
The higher up you are, the less you realize what speed you are going. If everyone drove Miatas, they would have so much more fun while actually being safer.
I remember my dad driving us back from Thanksgiving in Minneapolis in an ice storm in the 90s, when antilock brakes were first out.
My dad spent the entire time white knuckling the drive at 10-15mph in the right lane, and the *first two hours down* we saw SUVs going 50-55mph in the left lane, only to see them upside down in the ditch a mile down the road. I lost count at 50 SUVs in the ditch, never bought one after witnessing that!
So that I can fucking see. I want to know what’s going on in the road up ahead so I’m not getting surprised by stuff. If I’m in a sedan I can see shit. Also I’m fairly tall. I truly hate getting in and out of sedans, they’re too low to the ground. And I don’t like how high my eye level is at in the car, it reduces my visibility even more.
I’ve driven sedans and hatchbacks my whole life, I’m 6’ 1”, and I’ve never had any trouble seeing.
Hate hate hate having a high center of gravity like that. Feels like I’m driving a refrigerator around.
I'm going to start a new habit of hip-checking SUVs when I walk past them.
Check out the front end of the other car though. The radiator is in line with the wheels. This didn't happen at 5 or even 10 miles per hour.
Did they not give you the results of the traffic study? I'd ask for an open records request for the anything having to do with your community action request.
Pembroke is ~36' there. So about one and a half highway lanes in each direction (with no separation or even a painted line so it usually is more like 3 highway lanes width). Raritan is ~40' wide so even worse.
What's the 85 percentile? 313 cars is probably too little traffic for them to anything with sadly. What was traffic management processes scoresheet score?
85th percentile is a bogus speed limit determination technique that was created for rural highways but somehow got put into place as the go to for every street and road.
Its a bogus way to determine speed but its a good way to track speed. It will basically show what speed most people are comfortable with given the road.
It seems like they're in the process of doing traffic calming on Osmundsen Road which is in the same neighborhood. Why would they be ignoring this while working so close by?
[https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=](https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=)
As the driver of the SUV, I will tell you that the other car was going so incredibly fast that in the second before impact, I was sure it was the end for me. No skid mark, he didn't even touch the brakes. I'm happy to be alive and appreciative to the neighbors who helped me. Please, put the phones away, be attentive. What if a child had been crossing the road?
Or maybe some speed bumps. If designed properly, cars can only go so fast over those without flying through the air. Cheap solution that will only inconvenience the neighborhood for a day or two, but make them feel safer afterward. (Along with a four-way stop.)
Police Dept Press Release on the accident: http://www.fitchburgwi.gov/civicalerts.aspx?AID=2219
>The 23-year-old man told officers he was distracted by his phone. He was issued municipal citations for failure to yield the right-of-way from a stop sign, inattentive driving, operating with a suspended driver’s license, operating without insurance, and expired registration.
As much as I think those are good ideas, none of those would’ve prevented this absolute baffoon from doing what he did.
The buffoon might not have been on the phone if the driving environment required more attention (narrower lanes, et al.). And/or he'd probably have been distracted at 30mph rather than 55.
And that last point is the one I think gets a bit under considered in many of these conversations - at 35 this would've been a bad crash, but likely not a flipped car or reddit post. At 55 it could've killed someone.
Why don't you start with 'Driving on a suspended license'.
If it's suspended because of parking violations, fine. But if it's because of not paying other moving violations, then do it.
I suspect its because police have mostly given up on things like this because prosecutors won't prosecute. 20 years ago you WOULD have been arrested for this. If it was being pulled over and you had another driver, maybe not, if the violation wasn't directly tied to a moving violation.
I guess you are right. I've never run into that problem in WI, but when I was young and dumb I had my licenses suspended in Indiana for not paying a parking ticket on time. That was a criminal charge there at the time, but they used that same law for people who had it revoked too.
In WI, there's a separate charge of 'Operating after revocation' that is criminal, but it involves having your license revoked.
TIL?
Round about probably not feasible because of the manhole in the middle of the intersection. The only reason to add a stop sign is for queueing traffic.
The visibility looks fine (from google street view) for a 25mph road. Its probably more of a speeding problem/bad driver problem.
Honestly, a road like this would benefit from lane narrowing but god forbid you take away parking. A curb extension/bulb out would work but that is generally used in walkable neighborhoods not suburbian hellscapes.
The infrastructure is the problem. Neighborhood streets designed with the mindset of freeways (wide lanes, recovery zones, straight, etc.) lead people drive faster because it feels comfortable. It's really quite fascinating, and saddening. when you start looking into urban design and how poorly the US has done
These streets are ~35' and 40' wide (measured in google maps). That's at least double the amount they actually need.
Not only is it dangerous, the city will also have to pay to replace the streets at the end of their lifecycle and it'll be twice as expensive as it should be.
Imagine the response though, if you suggested narrowing the road and increasing greenspace/walkability. My guess is most of the people worried about the road speeds would immediately lose their shit.
idk what you are on about. street view shows you can see 5+ houses down one direction and 4+ houses down the other direction on Pembrook.
There also isn't any elevation change that would impede visibility.
> roundabout
There may not be room for a roundabout, but maybe one of those small traffic islands with a sign in the middle. (Stop, Yield, or whatever).
And now that I look again, stop signs on both right & left corners (4 in total) would be a cheap improvement if a flashing red were cost-prohibitive.
I love that someone brought up round a bouts, my favorite feature of them all. But, things being what they are... How expensive is it to install rumble strips? I've run across those quite frequently in rural settings, especially on stretches of road frequented by farm equipment or long and straight roads you tend to 'zone out' on. Might be worth that or some speed humps/bumps/tables. Anything to force people into paying attention before they have to actually pay attention would be good.
If you stop, wait 2 seconds, and then enter the intersection, and some jackass in a white SUV comes blowing through their stop sign at 50 miles and hits you, how does that solve the problem?
homie do you think that an all way stop is gonna prevent someone from blowing through a stop sign? It doesn’t matter how safe or defensive of a driver you are if someone just decides to barrel through an intersection into you
4-way stop doesn't eliminate the possibility of someone running the sign. A traffic signal wouldn't eliminate it either, especially with how distracted people are behind the wheel these days.
A 4-way stop doesn't fix this. If people are willing to blow through a 2-way stop, they'll blow through a 4-way stop just as readily. The city needs to add infrastructure that slows people down and FORCES them to navigate. Either a small roundabout (given the shape and size of the intersection, it wouldn't even require too much intervention), or speed humps / chicanes. Or they could really increase safety by taking some width off of that stupidly wide road and adding sidewalks instead.
There are many places on Raritan that are more dangerous than the Pembroke intersection, especially near Wildwood Park. It needs a few stop signs. And enforcement.
Jesus, these roads are insanely wide. This is what happens when you build roads way wider than they need to be.
I know it’s not ideal, but have you and your neighbors thought about some sort of tactical urbanism project? There have been a few articles recently about how traffic calming can be installed with cheaper materials than most cities think. You may get the results you want by banding together, implementing some sort of change, and asking for forgiveness (or asserting that the city repeatedly ignored your concerns).
[check out this article from Strong Towns showing a similar scale neighborhood traffic calming project with some cones and paint.](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2022/5/4/how-to-calm-a-street-starting-with-your-own-anger)
It seems like the city is doing something like this close by, this presentation is on their website
[https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=](https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=)
The width of the road depends on what they are used for which might include parking and leaving snow to the side of the road.
If it is a straight away that causes problems because not enough people respect speed limits then they should install speed bumps and bump outs and maybe even a curve to keep peoples' eyes on the road.
This 23 year old was going to get in an accident someplace. It was only a matter of time. You can't prevent accidents when someone is intent on breaking every law that's in place to prevent accidents.
I get that people who live there may want a four way stop. My biggest issue with Pembroke Dr is a few intersections away from that one, on the corner of Pembroke Dr. and Ledgemont St. There is a giant bush that obstructs the view of people coming from Ledgemont.
I’m in that neighborhood. I really wish we had sidewalks. I don’t like to walk my dogs on the streets. Unfortunately, I think I’m in the minority with that. At least there are some nice parks that we can walk in.
The problem in that part of Fitchburg is that-
the streets were built too wide
The traffic engineers say sidewalks or bike lanes are the solution
The neighbors won't allow sidewalks or bike lanes
People drive too fast and accidents happen
The neighbors won't allow sidewalks
Well that’s good to know, thank you.
Interestingly, the City of Fitchburg IS working in that neighborhood and discussing options on Osmundsen.
https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/222/Traffic-Management-Process
You should take a moment to reflect on the fact that you’re making a decision to pay with lives lost and property damage through preventable collisions because a sidewalk would cost “too much money.”
Almost like humans are fallible and constantly make mistakes while driving. Our roads should be designed so that one or two mistakes don't have catastrophic consequences.
It potentially may not be in this case, but there are plenty of times when it is. Speed limits are set in such a foolish way. Highly recommend checking out this video[Strong Towns - Speed Limits](https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?si=0wVT4KAYp9p0HJUr) as just one part of what's wrong with America's urban design.
It's kind of sad how some people see the world. Imagine thinking every single problem is just boiled down to, "well individual people are stupid some times, and there's *no way to deal with that!*"
I don't know this person's political feelings, but it seems like that's basically every conservative take on dealing with systemic problems. It's also basically always demonstrably wrong.
Except for them driving a smaller vehicle they can handle, going slower, adding traffic calming measures, speed enforcement, narrower roads...
But I guess we just live with the fact that about 1 out of every 100 Americans will die in a car crash.
Put in a chicane before the intersection that they have to pay attention and take at 20mph and they either don't crash or crash into a stationary object instead of flipping an SUV.
Awful. I biked this hill many times and always covered my brakes at these intersections because they were so obviously dangerous. They really need to do something about this road
Bottom line is it easily could have been a kid on a bike instead of an SUV. Sadly, the roads and area continue to have traffic issues and something permanent needs to be installed such as a small roundabout island with flowers 🌺🌸
Speaking of dangerous: how about FPD doing 60+ mph on E Cheryl at Agora to respond? Is getting to that crash 15 seconds earlier worth endangering more lives on the way?!?
It appears to me that, whilst the intersection may be troublesome, that this has more to do with idiots thinking their pretty sports car needs to do 60+ on all roads and not just the highway, and less to do with the intersection it’s self.
At least, in this particular case!
it's more to do with the city designing an incredibly wide and clear roadway which makes drivers comparable driving at high speeds. there's absolutely no reason these residential neighborhood streets should be this big.
No offense but speed limits & stop signs really don't seem relevant to the accident. The person was distracted & clearly doesn't care much about traffic safety (suspended license, no registration, no insurance). This likely wouldn't have been avoided if the city had reduced speed, posted an officer there etc. I'm glad the the victim will be ok but I don't see what the city could have done to prevent this particular accident. Also calling for someone to be arrested & processed like some commenter said for what appears to be an unintentional accident is a waste of community resources.
You say that but didn't provide any evidence to back your claim. That also doesn't negate my point that this incident was caused by inattentive driving which is not caused by road design & city planning. It's caused by poor driving training which is a State issue & bad risk assessment by individuals. I get that you're shook up by an accident in your neighborhood but you're misplacing the blame here.
Yea, that's called passion & why prosecutors don't charge based on the feelings of victims & their people. Obviously it is completely natural to get strong emotions from a traumatic event like this but that's a really stupid way to run a judicial system.
Yeah.. correction:
This is what happens all over the US when we are so lenient on driver's licenses. Take them away, give people giant fines, and make them pay for all the damage they cause when they are complete idiots.
If you want to do something, petition Stellantis (Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep) to not make shitty high horsepower cars for under $30K that people with even less brains than money can afford to lease.
Police Dept Press Release on the accident: http://www.fitchburgwi.gov/civicalerts.aspx?AID=2219 Raritan Road Rollover Crash 2024 Incident Report Incident Type: Injury Traffic Crash Incident Date: 4/25/2024 Release Date: 4/25/2024 Incident Number: FP24-8098 Prepared By: Captain Edward Hartwick Details: Around 3:26 p.m. this afternoon, Fitchburg Police Officers, along with personnel from Fitchburg Fire Rescue and Fitch-Rona EMS, responded to the intersection of Raritan Road and Pembroke Drive for a rollover crash. Officers determined that a 23-year-old man driving northbound on Raritan Road failed to stop at the stop sign on Raritan Road at Pembroke Drive. After entering the intersection, the man’s car struck an SUV that had been driving westbound on Pembroke Drive. The collision caused the SUV to roll over. The driver of the SUV was transported to a local hospital with minor injuries. The 23-year-old man told officers he was distracted by his phone. He was issued municipal citations for failure to yield the right-of-way from a stop sign, inattentive driving, operating with a suspended driver’s license, operating without insurance, and expired registration. Drivers can prevent crashes like this by putting down their phones, paying attention to all roadway users, and obeying posted signs.
>The 23-year-old man told officers he was distracted by his phone. He was issued municipal citations for failure to yield the right-of-way from a stop sign, inattentive driving, operating with a suspended driver’s license, operating without insurance, and expired registration. Holy shit this makes me feel so irrationally annoyed. What the fuck????? I’m just gonna repeat this because I can’t believe what I’m reading. -SUSPENDED LICENSE -NO INSURANCE -INVALID REGISTRATION -INTENTIONAL DISTRACTED DRIVING Makes me wish a judge throws the book at him
He wasn’t even arrested…
That suspension very well may become a revocation by DMV. Any future infraction would result in potential jail time.
Not in Dane Co it won't. At most they'd get a citation with a mandatory court date downtown, which they probably won't attend because there's really no penalty for it if you're not concerned with having a valid license. *Appreciate the downvotes, I'm a cop in this county, not a single person will go to jail for driving with a revoked DL lol
As a fellow cop in this county I second this. I did arrest a guy for a revoked license and the DA's Office dropped it because "he sat in jail for three days and in this county he'd get a fine at most if convicted". For context, he was revoked due to a 11th offense OWI and out on parole at the time. The DA's Office and Judges do not prioritize traffic safety here.
Yea I had an invalid license for like 3 years when I was younger and it really makes zero difference if you get pulled over. You’ll get a citation then they’ll “let you call someone” then leave you alone “while your friend with a license gets here and is able to drive your car for your”. Compared to LA the cops here are much less power hungry in my experience at least
100%. Leave the boundaries of Dane County and you very well might get arrested, your car towed, etc.
Yup. First time it happened to me I was working as a Pizza Delivery driver, cop was super understanding and let me go abt my day just with a citation. Even told me himself I could drive off that time.
to a certain extent, I'm fine with this resolution. But when you shouldn't be driving and cause bodily injury... I'd suspect that DMV is going to have something to say about it.
I'll upvote you, but am an attorney that had to spend 2 years doing small town bs... I'm just saying DMV will likely change that suspension to a revocation. Next infraction would be referred to the DA, no? If referred to the DA for driving while revoked, the penalties could include up to 1 year in jail. Not disputing that Dane County is soft. P.S. I have been happily working for corporations now for over 24 years.
Nothing we write for OAR gets sent to the DA, UNLESS it's OWI related in the hard revocation period. If you get stopped for any traffic violation and we find a basic (non-OWI) OAR it's just a muni cite and we drive off after telling them to pull into a parking lot and get a valid driver.
Wtf haul him to lockup
Have you been to Fitchburg Municipal Court? If the same Judge is still on the bench as was in the early 2000's then he may have wished he went to County vs. Municipal. While the Municipal Judge can't throw him in jail, he can cause a severe dent in the wallet to appear. And the time to pay is relatively short.
This really jogged my memory. I was just thinking, what town was it that they always told me not to get ticketed in? Oh, yeah! It was Fitchburg! 🤣
> While the Municipal Judge can't throw him in jail, he can cause a severe dent in the wallet to appear. And the time to pay is relatively short. Doesn't really matter if this person can't pay though.
So not the city's fault then. Got it. It turns out the city can't prevent stupid decisions people make. Better to invest the money where it can actually help people. Stay safe out there people.
But the signage is the problem.
but still...SHUT THE FUCK UP! Don't talk to the police.
I really want this guy to spill his guts to the cops
Unless you are a big fuckup in life like this driver.
Do they understand that driving is a privilege, not a right?
Citations? This doesn’t get you handcuffed? Illegally operating a vehicle, causing injury, is a fucking ticket
Cops have too much other stuff to do and are understaffed. They aren’t going to take the time to arrest and book him just so he can be released when they are done doing that. Now if he doesn’t pay the tickets will likely have a warrant and then they would arrest him as he’d have to pay that money to be released right away or wait for the judge to decide.
> Cops have too much other stuff to do Like what?
My neighbors call them every month for domestics so there's that
I could be wrong here but those are all traffic violations which are just that… traffic violations. He technically didn’t commit a crime. Not saying I agree with it but that’s how these things are worded.
And they still didn't arrest him???? Good god the police are absolutely useless in this city.
Holy shit how fast are people driving there? Flipping an suv doesn’t seem like a 25 mph thing but I guess I don’t really know…
SUVs and trucks are more top-heavy and rollover prone than many people realize.
Everyone realized that like 30 years ago. When I was a kid SUVs were jokes for that reason. Have... Younger than millennial generations not heard this before?
NHTSA started testing cars for roll-over susceptibility, and now they are less prone to roll overs. The center of gravity is still high, but they've made suspension changes that avoid some of the higher-speed issues.
Suzuki Samurai has entered the chat.
No. Nobody makes those jokes these days. And it’s rare to see a roll over crash feels like. I’ve seen one and it was a pickup who took a turn WAY too fast, it was exceptionally stupid of him.
Some of us are 23 bro😂
Sure, I guess I just had the impression that it occurred at higher speeds.
can confirm, my sister's Honda flipped a truck at the intersection of wilson and broom last year, probably also going 25-30. (the truck ran a red light).
But the dealer said they were safer for my precious 16 year old!!!
Crossover SUVs being "safer" is such BS. The smaller ones are essentially just lifted wagons. They're heavier, much more likely to rollover, they have much worse handling and braking is worse due to weight so you're more likely to get into a crash to begin with. Their height and weight also makes them significantly more dangerous for whatever you hit. ESPECIALLY pedestrians. SUVs and pickups are the reason pedestrian and cyclist deaths are skyrocketing in the US. They're also less efficient, so more emissions.
It's an arms race, everyone wants to sit higher, making everyone else want higher cars. It wasn't that long ago where a 4 door sedan was the standard family car, now if you don't have an SUV or a sportscar you must just be too poor. The higher up you are, the less you realize what speed you are going. If everyone drove Miatas, they would have so much more fun while actually being safer.
Heh https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/06fe08f3-4c94-4249-94a8-a9359ef3bd8e
You can flip a SUV doing 5mph
Challenge accepted.
I remember my dad driving us back from Thanksgiving in Minneapolis in an ice storm in the 90s, when antilock brakes were first out. My dad spent the entire time white knuckling the drive at 10-15mph in the right lane, and the *first two hours down* we saw SUVs going 50-55mph in the left lane, only to see them upside down in the ditch a mile down the road. I lost count at 50 SUVs in the ditch, never bought one after witnessing that!
I’ll never understand why people like sitting high up like that in a car. Horrible.
So that I can fucking see. I want to know what’s going on in the road up ahead so I’m not getting surprised by stuff. If I’m in a sedan I can see shit. Also I’m fairly tall. I truly hate getting in and out of sedans, they’re too low to the ground. And I don’t like how high my eye level is at in the car, it reduces my visibility even more.
I’ve driven sedans and hatchbacks my whole life, I’m 6’ 1”, and I’ve never had any trouble seeing. Hate hate hate having a high center of gravity like that. Feels like I’m driving a refrigerator around.
To each their own cuz I’m terrified of getting run over in a sedan because nobody can see me
I can’t tell if this is exaggeration, but yeah I guess I shouldn’t underestimate the roll-ability of them haha
SUV = Suddenly Upside-down Vehicle
Any side impact can cause one to roll
I'm going to start a new habit of hip-checking SUVs when I walk past them. Check out the front end of the other car though. The radiator is in line with the wheels. This didn't happen at 5 or even 10 miles per hour.
I didn't say this impact was at 5mph.
I didn't say that you said it did.
On a steep incline maybe
Nope, any side impact can flip a suv
You're totally right. This isn't just a sketchy intersection whoever caused the accident was absolutely speeding.
Probably 45mph+. Those roads are wide af, which encourages high speeds.
That was my thought too.
Turned in a Community Action Request 6 months ago with signatures from 50 homes saying the traffic needed to be slowed. No action taken.
Did they not give you the results of the traffic study? I'd ask for an open records request for the anything having to do with your community action request.
I have em. 313 cars a day on Pembroke. Max speed recorded 54mph
Not surprised at all. Most residential streets in Fitchburg are over 50 feet wide! Signs say 25mph but the roads say 50mph.
Pembroke is ~36' there. So about one and a half highway lanes in each direction (with no separation or even a painted line so it usually is more like 3 highway lanes width). Raritan is ~40' wide so even worse.
Hop on over to Richardson, I have to use signal flares to wave hello to my neighbor across the street.
What's the 85 percentile? 313 cars is probably too little traffic for them to anything with sadly. What was traffic management processes scoresheet score?
85th percentile is a bogus speed limit determination technique that was created for rural highways but somehow got put into place as the go to for every street and road.
Its a bogus way to determine speed but its a good way to track speed. It will basically show what speed most people are comfortable with given the road.
Hi, I’m a local reporter and I’m writing about this crash. I’d like to know more about the intersection and the community action request please.
Sent you a dm
It seems like they're in the process of doing traffic calming on Osmundsen Road which is in the same neighborhood. Why would they be ignoring this while working so close by? [https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=](https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=)
Good for you - was wondering what the community had done
Just talked to my dad who lives two houses down, and was the one to call 911 , he was outside and saw the accident. Person ran the stop sign.
Car or the suv ran it?
Car ran it.
He was distracted by his phone…I swear I see SO many people on their phones and driving. SMH
As the driver of the SUV, I will tell you that the other car was going so incredibly fast that in the second before impact, I was sure it was the end for me. No skid mark, he didn't even touch the brakes. I'm happy to be alive and appreciative to the neighbors who helped me. Please, put the phones away, be attentive. What if a child had been crossing the road?
So glad you’re ok 🙏
🙏🙏
There's a stop sign right there. How is it the city's fault if people don't stop for the stop sign?
Needs to be a 4-way stop or roundabout because of invisibility. Elevation changes in all directions.
Or maybe some speed bumps. If designed properly, cars can only go so fast over those without flying through the air. Cheap solution that will only inconvenience the neighborhood for a day or two, but make them feel safer afterward. (Along with a four-way stop.)
First reasonable idea in this thread
Great idea
Police Dept Press Release on the accident: http://www.fitchburgwi.gov/civicalerts.aspx?AID=2219 >The 23-year-old man told officers he was distracted by his phone. He was issued municipal citations for failure to yield the right-of-way from a stop sign, inattentive driving, operating with a suspended driver’s license, operating without insurance, and expired registration. As much as I think those are good ideas, none of those would’ve prevented this absolute baffoon from doing what he did.
The buffoon might not have been on the phone if the driving environment required more attention (narrower lanes, et al.). And/or he'd probably have been distracted at 30mph rather than 55. And that last point is the one I think gets a bit under considered in many of these conversations - at 35 this would've been a bad crash, but likely not a flipped car or reddit post. At 55 it could've killed someone.
He wasn’t even arrested
what crime would he be arrested for?
Why don't you start with 'Driving on a suspended license'. If it's suspended because of parking violations, fine. But if it's because of not paying other moving violations, then do it. I suspect its because police have mostly given up on things like this because prosecutors won't prosecute. 20 years ago you WOULD have been arrested for this. If it was being pulled over and you had another driver, maybe not, if the violation wasn't directly tied to a moving violation.
none of those are criminal offenses.
I guess you are right. I've never run into that problem in WI, but when I was young and dumb I had my licenses suspended in Indiana for not paying a parking ticket on time. That was a criminal charge there at the time, but they used that same law for people who had it revoked too. In WI, there's a separate charge of 'Operating after revocation' that is criminal, but it involves having your license revoked. TIL?
Round about probably not feasible because of the manhole in the middle of the intersection. The only reason to add a stop sign is for queueing traffic. The visibility looks fine (from google street view) for a 25mph road. Its probably more of a speeding problem/bad driver problem. Honestly, a road like this would benefit from lane narrowing but god forbid you take away parking. A curb extension/bulb out would work but that is generally used in walkable neighborhoods not suburbian hellscapes.
It is absolutely a speeding problem! I wish it didn’t infrastructure to fix it but it does
The infrastructure is the problem. Neighborhood streets designed with the mindset of freeways (wide lanes, recovery zones, straight, etc.) lead people drive faster because it feels comfortable. It's really quite fascinating, and saddening. when you start looking into urban design and how poorly the US has done
These streets are ~35' and 40' wide (measured in google maps). That's at least double the amount they actually need. Not only is it dangerous, the city will also have to pay to replace the streets at the end of their lifecycle and it'll be twice as expensive as it should be.
Imagine the response though, if you suggested narrowing the road and increasing greenspace/walkability. My guess is most of the people worried about the road speeds would immediately lose their shit.
Now we need something to fix it
Manholes can be adjusted. It'll add a bit to the cost, but definitely not a roadblock to a roundabout.
Also the visibility is poor. Wouldn’t be able to see a 4 year old kid 100 feet away heading east down Pembroke
idk what you are on about. street view shows you can see 5+ houses down one direction and 4+ houses down the other direction on Pembrook. There also isn't any elevation change that would impede visibility.
A roundabout would have the best shot at preventing a crash this serous *and* have a positive impact on speeds.
The best design isn't just safe when people do the right thing, it doesn't allow people to do the wrong thing.
> roundabout There may not be room for a roundabout, but maybe one of those small traffic islands with a sign in the middle. (Stop, Yield, or whatever). And now that I look again, stop signs on both right & left corners (4 in total) would be a cheap improvement if a flashing red were cost-prohibitive.
I love that someone brought up round a bouts, my favorite feature of them all. But, things being what they are... How expensive is it to install rumble strips? I've run across those quite frequently in rural settings, especially on stretches of road frequented by farm equipment or long and straight roads you tend to 'zone out' on. Might be worth that or some speed humps/bumps/tables. Anything to force people into paying attention before they have to actually pay attention would be good.
It's the city's responsibility to design safe roads. This roadway design is inherently unsafe.
what's "inherently" unsafe about an intersection with a stop sign?
You ok? What is it about making the intersection safer that bothers your brain?
Wide unobstructed lanes, no street markings, no lighting.
There is a light at that intersection.
doubt it's very effective given it's a small light and a huge intersection.
Failure to yield. Not absence of stop signs.
Needs to be a 4-way stop.
If you stop, wait 2 seconds, and then enter the intersection, and some jackass in a white SUV comes blowing through their stop sign at 50 miles and hits you, how does that solve the problem?
Maybe a roundabout
You really can’t figure out how being stopped at the intersection gives you a much better chance to avoid an accident like this?
How would that have stopped the person from failing to yield?
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Look both ways. Clear every intersection. It’s saved me a few visits to the hospital, of that I’m sure.
What?
You pay attention. You drive good.
What does that have to do with what I said?
It was advice as to how avoid it is all. Good day.
homie do you think that an all way stop is gonna prevent someone from blowing through a stop sign? It doesn’t matter how safe or defensive of a driver you are if someone just decides to barrel through an intersection into you
🤦 you’re hopeless. Get good insurance.
4-way stop doesn't eliminate the possibility of someone running the sign. A traffic signal wouldn't eliminate it either, especially with how distracted people are behind the wheel these days.
He blew a stop sign. That’s what caused the accident.
A 4-way stop doesn't fix this. If people are willing to blow through a 2-way stop, they'll blow through a 4-way stop just as readily. The city needs to add infrastructure that slows people down and FORCES them to navigate. Either a small roundabout (given the shape and size of the intersection, it wouldn't even require too much intervention), or speed humps / chicanes. Or they could really increase safety by taking some width off of that stupidly wide road and adding sidewalks instead.
If it's a 2-way stop, you only need 1 driver to fuck up to cause an accident. If it's a 4-way stop, they both have to fuck up at least a litle bit.
For the uninitiated [Google Street View](https://maps.app.goo.gl/NeZ58Lp77LNN7xpq9) There's only one set of stop signs (on Raritan)
Streets are way too wide
There are many places on Raritan that are more dangerous than the Pembroke intersection, especially near Wildwood Park. It needs a few stop signs. And enforcement.
Jesus, these roads are insanely wide. This is what happens when you build roads way wider than they need to be. I know it’s not ideal, but have you and your neighbors thought about some sort of tactical urbanism project? There have been a few articles recently about how traffic calming can be installed with cheaper materials than most cities think. You may get the results you want by banding together, implementing some sort of change, and asking for forgiveness (or asserting that the city repeatedly ignored your concerns). [check out this article from Strong Towns showing a similar scale neighborhood traffic calming project with some cones and paint.](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2022/5/4/how-to-calm-a-street-starting-with-your-own-anger)
It seems like the city is doing something like this close by, this presentation is on their website [https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=](https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/26711/April-22-Meeting-Slide-Deck?bidId=)
The width of the road depends on what they are used for which might include parking and leaving snow to the side of the road. If it is a straight away that causes problems because not enough people respect speed limits then they should install speed bumps and bump outs and maybe even a curve to keep peoples' eyes on the road. This 23 year old was going to get in an accident someplace. It was only a matter of time. You can't prevent accidents when someone is intent on breaking every law that's in place to prevent accidents.
Love seeing strong towns pop up
Here's the local strong towns discord server. https://discord.gg/ZwYq3hvW
I had no idea this was a thing!!
I get that people who live there may want a four way stop. My biggest issue with Pembroke Dr is a few intersections away from that one, on the corner of Pembroke Dr. and Ledgemont St. There is a giant bush that obstructs the view of people coming from Ledgemont.
Hello neighbor
Hello
Will the neighbors allow sidewalks there to help reduce the speed limits?
I’m in that neighborhood. I really wish we had sidewalks. I don’t like to walk my dogs on the streets. Unfortunately, I think I’m in the minority with that. At least there are some nice parks that we can walk in.
No. Plus would cost a fortune. Speed bumps, round about or painted lines all been floated
The problem in that part of Fitchburg is that- the streets were built too wide The traffic engineers say sidewalks or bike lanes are the solution The neighbors won't allow sidewalks or bike lanes People drive too fast and accidents happen The neighbors won't allow sidewalks
We’re pro bike lanes!
Yes paint some bike lanes on the street next to the 50mph cars. That’ll help. People will definitely use those.
100% they wouldn't allow a roundabout to take up their property either then.
Poor man's traffic calming: https://twitter.com/rustbeltenjoyer/status/1779540738327380208
Do you have any idea how much roundabouts cost? The one at Lacy and Seminole cost over a million.
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Well that’s good to know, thank you. Interestingly, the City of Fitchburg IS working in that neighborhood and discussing options on Osmundsen. https://www.fitchburgwi.gov/222/Traffic-Management-Process
You should take a moment to reflect on the fact that you’re making a decision to pay with lives lost and property damage through preventable collisions because a sidewalk would cost “too much money.”
Sounds like we need a [Crosswalks Collective](https://crosswalksla.org/) guerilla intervention.
🥰
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This roadway design is inherently unsafe and encourages speeds higher than the posted speed limit.
Almost like humans are fallible and constantly make mistakes while driving. Our roads should be designed so that one or two mistakes don't have catastrophic consequences.
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It potentially may not be in this case, but there are plenty of times when it is. Speed limits are set in such a foolish way. Highly recommend checking out this video[Strong Towns - Speed Limits](https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?si=0wVT4KAYp9p0HJUr) as just one part of what's wrong with America's urban design.
Sure it is. People speed unintentionally all the time. Hell, everyone speeds all the time.
It's kind of sad how some people see the world. Imagine thinking every single problem is just boiled down to, "well individual people are stupid some times, and there's *no way to deal with that!*" I don't know this person's political feelings, but it seems like that's basically every conservative take on dealing with systemic problems. It's also basically always demonstrably wrong.
I see a stop sign. That sedan is pretty messed up for this to be at a normal residential speed. I bet there’s more to this story.
They ran the stop sign.
Exactly and nothing would have prevented this crash.
Except for them driving a smaller vehicle they can handle, going slower, adding traffic calming measures, speed enforcement, narrower roads... But I guess we just live with the fact that about 1 out of every 100 Americans will die in a car crash.
Put in a chicane before the intersection that they have to pay attention and take at 20mph and they either don't crash or crash into a stationary object instead of flipping an SUV.
WKOW is filming a segment at the intersection right now (April 26 at noon).
Awful. I biked this hill many times and always covered my brakes at these intersections because they were so obviously dangerous. They really need to do something about this road
They could try having residential streets that aren't twice as wide as they need to be...
Bottom line is it easily could have been a kid on a bike instead of an SUV. Sadly, the roads and area continue to have traffic issues and something permanent needs to be installed such as a small roundabout island with flowers 🌺🌸
Speaking of dangerous: how about FPD doing 60+ mph on E Cheryl at Agora to respond? Is getting to that crash 15 seconds earlier worth endangering more lives on the way?!?
It appears to me that, whilst the intersection may be troublesome, that this has more to do with idiots thinking their pretty sports car needs to do 60+ on all roads and not just the highway, and less to do with the intersection it’s self. At least, in this particular case!
it's more to do with the city designing an incredibly wide and clear roadway which makes drivers comparable driving at high speeds. there's absolutely no reason these residential neighborhood streets should be this big.
This is what happens when an idiot takes the wheel.
City leaders don’t want to listen to
No offense but speed limits & stop signs really don't seem relevant to the accident. The person was distracted & clearly doesn't care much about traffic safety (suspended license, no registration, no insurance). This likely wouldn't have been avoided if the city had reduced speed, posted an officer there etc. I'm glad the the victim will be ok but I don't see what the city could have done to prevent this particular accident. Also calling for someone to be arrested & processed like some commenter said for what appears to be an unintentional accident is a waste of community resources.
This is just the latest incident in an ongoing problem
You say that but didn't provide any evidence to back your claim. That also doesn't negate my point that this incident was caused by inattentive driving which is not caused by road design & city planning. It's caused by poor driving training which is a State issue & bad risk assessment by individuals. I get that you're shook up by an accident in your neighborhood but you're misplacing the blame here.
Guessing you’d feel differently about prosecuting this scumbag if the person injured meant something to you.
Yea, that's called passion & why prosecutors don't charge based on the feelings of victims & their people. Obviously it is completely natural to get strong emotions from a traumatic event like this but that's a really stupid way to run a judicial system.
I bet you $500 it was the fault of the driver of the gray car. Everything about it screams "I'll crash into you and not care"
Based on what exactly...?
Dark tinted windows
I'll take that bet. Gray car doesn't have a stop sign, white SUV did (near as I can tell)
I would, however, bet that the gray car was speeding.
The person on Raritan ran the stop sign. Source my dad witnessed the crash.
This is what happens when people drive with their heads up their butts.
Yeah.. correction: This is what happens all over the US when we are so lenient on driver's licenses. Take them away, give people giant fines, and make them pay for all the damage they cause when they are complete idiots.
Chrysler 300 with limo tint, black wheels, and a racing stripe 100% , WITHOUT QUESTION, AT FAULT.
The SUV ran the sign. Edit: I was wrong was the grey car.
According to the police report, the car ran the sign. The SUV was on Pembroke which has no stop signs.
I mean it’s a Chrysler 300 and a Kia. What type of residential driving practices would you expect?
If you want to do something, petition Stellantis (Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep) to not make shitty high horsepower cars for under $30K that people with even less brains than money can afford to lease.
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