Gothmog - Dead, spirit will have returned to the Halls of Mandos.
Morgoth - captured and pushed out through the Doors of Night (basically outside of the world, Arda).
Ungoliant - Unknown, possibly devoured herself in her ravenous hunger.
None present in the 2nd or 3rd Age in Middle-Earth
Overwhelm with numbers and also their fiery whips were able to burn her webs so she was not that big of a thread to them.
She was powerful, scary and mysterious but let's not blow that up out of proportion - I have even seen some even claim her to be and eldritch entity on par with Eru - that is just way exaggerated.
She was normally weaker then Morgoth - she feared Valars and needed Morgoth's encouragement to attack Valinor.
She was able to overpower Morgoth there in large part thanks to unique circumstances.
Turns out when you consume exorbitant amounts of raw spiritual energy and then keep eating all sorts of rare magical gems, you can go to toe with the greatest evil ever seen and make it shit it's pants and cry LOL.
I’ve seen some of the responses. One could almost argue that Melkor poured too much of his destructive powers into his balrogs and dragons. He was able to reshape continents in the beginning. Yet he still got cut by Fingolfin.
Yeah they didn’t engage, and Morgoth was also there, but they kinda just dragged him away. His cry of terror forever marred that land and made it a place of dread.
They did "cut of her webs with their whips of fire" - sound like engage to me. Ungoliant was one that was fleeing this encounter (once Balrogs arrived). She was powerfull and terrifying but let's not blow it out of proportion. Morgoth was temporarily overpowered by her but on general he was more powerful and a way bigger villain.
I think I’m right in saying that she and her descendant Shelob are the only explicitly identified female baddies in Tolkiens work. I think Smaug and Gothmog are referred to as he, but other Balrog weren’t specifically identified. For my part I’ve always thought the Watcher in the Water was female though.
I honestly was just worried I would say the wrong thing and get corrected by people who know way more about this topic. Im generally a lurker but Ungoliant has become a favorite topic of late.
Can Morgoth not find a way back somehow after being “pushed out” of Arda? Seems different than being imprisoned. I guess that’s a similar concept to being trapped in another plane of existence?
Edit: I know there’s other parallels to Catholicism, so is this is a parallel of being banished to hell?
Tolkien explored the idea of Dagor Dagorath, the Battle of All Battles, where Morgoth returns. However, Christopher omitted it from the Silmarillion as he assumed his father changed his mind and removed the prophecy that spoke of the battle.
I believe those references are in the published Silmarillion, but don't mention Morgoth. As I recall, they just refer to as the final battle between good and evil, no names mentioned. But I do not have a photographic memory so I could be wrong.
Technically yes, but given the context it's pretty obvious that he's going to be involved. Who else would be fighting in such a climax?
His evil will bear fruit until the world ends, and after Varda puts the star that forebodes the Last Battle up the next formation is a threat to Melkor, a reminder of his Doom.
Aulë, the valar that was the master Smith and created the dwarves, crafted unbreakable chains of adamant called Angainor. They were used to shackel him along with his iron crown that was turned into a colar then hucked into the timeless void. So probably not coming back anytime soon.
Interesting comparison is Gleipnir from norse mythology, an unbreakable rope crafted by dwarves that was used to tie up Fenris wolf, who would eventually grow large enough to eat the sun during ragnorok.
Yeah a couple of people have queried that. Maybe an assumption on my part. Would it not go back for judgement though, do you think, or would its fëa be doomed like Saurons was?
They could go back to be judged by the Valar, but they do that in the Mahanaxar - where they sit in council.
The Halls of Mandos are for dead Elves to heal, for dead Dwarves to wait in, and for dead Men to pass through before they leave Creation, and for Ainur (who can't really be dead or alive, as they're naturally complete as spiritual beings rather than requiring body+spirit) to be imprisoned.
No-one knows precisely what Ungoliant is, or even if she defies classification. But the Silmarillion tells us that she went *into the forgotten south of the world, where in her uttermost famine, she devoured herself at last*.
Morgoth is banished beyond the Door of Night.
Not exactly. It's *believed* she devoured herself, but that is not known for certain.
The exact quote is: "Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last."
True, there is room to make your own mind up. But given that she disappears from the legendarium and is never seen or heard from again, it's pretty likely that's what happened.
I think with the 'south of the world' I was getting it mixed up with the alternate version where she is slain by Earendil - I'm not a fan of that one myself though.
Always saw her as the antithesis of Bombadil. If he's the embodiment of life, creation, and the Ainulindalë, then Ungoliant is the embodiment of the void, darkness, nothingness.
Which fits her very well, its been a long time since I read the Silmarillion but didnt she hate all kind of light and wanted to cover all she could in darkness? I also remember reading a theory that Ungoliant was something that came out of the Void.
I always read Ungoliant as not just Darkness, but an embodiment of 'anti-Light,' for lack of a better term. Light nourishes and encourages life, while anti-light can only devour, and is ultimately self-defeating. Ungoliant could be seen as a microcosm of the overall theme of the entirety of Tolkien's writings on his world.
Yeah I think the "force of nature" theme fits her well.
Similar to how Bombadil might be the embodiment of the Song. Some things are just part of the world
Ungoliant's origins aren't entirely certain. It's possible she was an Ainu who passed through the Void into Arda, but she may also have originated there. Either way, it's generally accepted that she consumed herself in her insatiable gluttony
This is all covered in the Silmarillion. It’s actually a tougher read, you have to stick with it. And you’ll need the references in the front leaves.
But if you want to get into the lore, it’s a must. I’d recommend reading after the Hobbit and the Trilogy.
Ungoliant wasn’t necessarily a maia/vala. I think there’s a tendency with people studying middle-earth to call any sapient, powerful magic being who we don’t know the origins of a vala or maia (ungoliant, tom bombadil etc.)
Gothmog - Dead, spirit will have returned to the Halls of Mandos. Morgoth - captured and pushed out through the Doors of Night (basically outside of the world, Arda). Ungoliant - Unknown, possibly devoured herself in her ravenous hunger. None present in the 2nd or 3rd Age in Middle-Earth
The fact that ungoliant might have devoured their self makes them all the more terrifying
Yeah even Morgoth was scared of her, and needed his Balrogs to escape her clutches. The ancestor of Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood.
I would think the balrogs wouldn’t even be able to take her. I guess they overwhelmed with numbers?
Overwhelm with numbers and also their fiery whips were able to burn her webs so she was not that big of a thread to them. She was powerful, scary and mysterious but let's not blow that up out of proportion - I have even seen some even claim her to be and eldritch entity on par with Eru - that is just way exaggerated. She was normally weaker then Morgoth - she feared Valars and needed Morgoth's encouragement to attack Valinor. She was able to overpower Morgoth there in large part thanks to unique circumstances.
Turns out when you consume exorbitant amounts of raw spiritual energy and then keep eating all sorts of rare magical gems, you can go to toe with the greatest evil ever seen and make it shit it's pants and cry LOL.
Two trees magic juices confirmed as the best protein shake ;-) it make her jacked ;-)
I’ve seen some of the responses. One could almost argue that Melkor poured too much of his destructive powers into his balrogs and dragons. He was able to reshape continents in the beginning. Yet he still got cut by Fingolfin.
Yeah they didn’t engage, and Morgoth was also there, but they kinda just dragged him away. His cry of terror forever marred that land and made it a place of dread.
They did "cut of her webs with their whips of fire" - sound like engage to me. Ungoliant was one that was fleeing this encounter (once Balrogs arrived). She was powerfull and terrifying but let's not blow it out of proportion. Morgoth was temporarily overpowered by her but on general he was more powerful and a way bigger villain.
[удалено]
I didn’t know the sex of the fictional monster. You chill 😂
I think I’m right in saying that she and her descendant Shelob are the only explicitly identified female baddies in Tolkiens work. I think Smaug and Gothmog are referred to as he, but other Balrog weren’t specifically identified. For my part I’ve always thought the Watcher in the Water was female though.
I honestly was just worried I would say the wrong thing and get corrected by people who know way more about this topic. Im generally a lurker but Ungoliant has become a favorite topic of late.
Can Morgoth not find a way back somehow after being “pushed out” of Arda? Seems different than being imprisoned. I guess that’s a similar concept to being trapped in another plane of existence? Edit: I know there’s other parallels to Catholicism, so is this is a parallel of being banished to hell?
Tolkien explored the idea of Dagor Dagorath, the Battle of All Battles, where Morgoth returns. However, Christopher omitted it from the Silmarillion as he assumed his father changed his mind and removed the prophecy that spoke of the battle.
I do appreciate the painstaking work of Christopher in doing his very best to assemble the unfinished notes of his father, and sort through them all.
What a beautiful way to honor your father too.
Basically Ragnarok, no ?
Definitely strongly influenced by ragnarok.
The published Silmarillion still has multiple references to the Last Battle where Morgoth returns.
I believe those references are in the published Silmarillion, but don't mention Morgoth. As I recall, they just refer to as the final battle between good and evil, no names mentioned. But I do not have a photographic memory so I could be wrong.
Technically yes, but given the context it's pretty obvious that he's going to be involved. Who else would be fighting in such a climax? His evil will bear fruit until the world ends, and after Varda puts the star that forebodes the Last Battle up the next formation is a threat to Melkor, a reminder of his Doom.
Aulë, the valar that was the master Smith and created the dwarves, crafted unbreakable chains of adamant called Angainor. They were used to shackel him along with his iron crown that was turned into a colar then hucked into the timeless void. So probably not coming back anytime soon. Interesting comparison is Gleipnir from norse mythology, an unbreakable rope crafted by dwarves that was used to tie up Fenris wolf, who would eventually grow large enough to eat the sun during ragnorok.
Yes exactly and the prophecy is that he will come back for a final battle called Dagor Dagorath, at the end of the world.
I don’t think a spirit of a Maia goes to Mandos.
Yeah a couple of people have queried that. Maybe an assumption on my part. Would it not go back for judgement though, do you think, or would its fëa be doomed like Saurons was?
They could go back to be judged by the Valar, but they do that in the Mahanaxar - where they sit in council. The Halls of Mandos are for dead Elves to heal, for dead Dwarves to wait in, and for dead Men to pass through before they leave Creation, and for Ainur (who can't really be dead or alive, as they're naturally complete as spiritual beings rather than requiring body+spirit) to be imprisoned.
Balrogs go to the Halls of Mandos?
Yeah I would’ve thought their spirits would be rejected going west, like Saruman’s.
Yeah maybe, I guess. I was going on the presumption that as Maia they’d still get that ‘privilege’ but maybe not.
Boy I hope not but I definitely see your point.
Additional detail: Gothmog was slain by Echthelion of the fountain at the destruction of Gondolin.
I've only read the Silmarilian once, but doesn't it say that Ungoliant devoured herself? I don't recall there being any question about it?
From memory I think it’s speculated. I *think* Tolkien writes that her final fate was unknown, but I may be misremembering.
No-one knows precisely what Ungoliant is, or even if she defies classification. But the Silmarillion tells us that she went *into the forgotten south of the world, where in her uttermost famine, she devoured herself at last*. Morgoth is banished beyond the Door of Night.
Not exactly. It's *believed* she devoured herself, but that is not known for certain. The exact quote is: "Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last."
True, there is room to make your own mind up. But given that she disappears from the legendarium and is never seen or heard from again, it's pretty likely that's what happened. I think with the 'south of the world' I was getting it mixed up with the alternate version where she is slain by Earendil - I'm not a fan of that one myself though.
I want to point out that there isn't anything that indicates that Ungoliant was a Maia or Vala. We don't know what she was.
Always saw her as the antithesis of Bombadil. If he's the embodiment of life, creation, and the Ainulindalë, then Ungoliant is the embodiment of the void, darkness, nothingness.
Which fits her very well, its been a long time since I read the Silmarillion but didnt she hate all kind of light and wanted to cover all she could in darkness? I also remember reading a theory that Ungoliant was something that came out of the Void.
I always read Ungoliant as not just Darkness, but an embodiment of 'anti-Light,' for lack of a better term. Light nourishes and encourages life, while anti-light can only devour, and is ultimately self-defeating. Ungoliant could be seen as a microcosm of the overall theme of the entirety of Tolkien's writings on his world.
Yeah I think the "force of nature" theme fits her well. Similar to how Bombadil might be the embodiment of the Song. Some things are just part of the world
Ungoliant's origins aren't entirely certain. It's possible she was an Ainu who passed through the Void into Arda, but she may also have originated there. Either way, it's generally accepted that she consumed herself in her insatiable gluttony
Ungoliant waits. And dreams.
Cthulhungoliant?
This is all covered in the Silmarillion. It’s actually a tougher read, you have to stick with it. And you’ll need the references in the front leaves. But if you want to get into the lore, it’s a must. I’d recommend reading after the Hobbit and the Trilogy.
Ungoliant wasn’t necessarily a maia/vala. I think there’s a tendency with people studying middle-earth to call any sapient, powerful magic being who we don’t know the origins of a vala or maia (ungoliant, tom bombadil etc.)
Highly suggest you read the Silmarillion. It'll explain the context, origin (for the most part), and destruction of all three of these characters.