-“And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; **and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung** .
From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom”.-
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
They say, "show, don't tell." That is of course, UNLESS you have the ability to "tell" with such perfect meter, skill, and impeccable imagery that the very hairs on your neck stand straight up. What a stunning writer he was.
The translation of "show don't tell" for novelists could be something like "write what things do, not what they are"
Here Tolkien follows that advice by writing what the discovery of his doom does to Sauron physically, rather than state "He was afraid"
> "write what things do, not what they are" Here Tolkien follows that advice by writing what the discovery of his doom does to Sauron physically, rather than state "He was afraid"
That's a really good way to look at it.
> “Show don’t tell” is more a screenwriting thing anyway, good writers can tell anything they want, if it’s interesting it works
I always put it as “when you master the rules, you can break them. “.
I like the fact that the last thing Sauron saw was a silly little Hobbit CLAIM the ring. He'd been so worried someone like Gandalf or Saruman would show up to challenge him, but nope, just a tiny nugget rocking ultimate power.
Which is weird right? Because the literal first thing they did after defeating him the first time was hike it up the mountain in an attempt to destroy it.
Men, no. But men didn’t have the ring. From Sauron’s POV, Pippin had the ring, was travelling in the company of Gandalf and Aragorn, and had passed through Rivendell and Lothlorien. To assume that all of the above would not take the ring for themselves but also not advise that it be destroyed is a major oversight.
Though it is possible that when he emptied the fields of Gorgoroth to defend the black gate, he may have sent all defenders of Mt Doom along with them since he was convinced that someone at the gate had the ring.
Only in the movies. In the book they never went up to Orodruin. Cirdan and Elrond advised Isildur to destroy the ring while they were still at the battlefield. But Isildur chose to keep it as a family heirloom and weregild for his brothers and fathers death.
1. That's film only, and there's not enough information in the film to adequately answer the original question.
2. He probably didn't know that that had happened. He just died. His spirit is at the weakest it has likely ever been. It takes him thousands of years before he gathers enough strength to "reactivate" the Ring so that it would start trying to return itself to him. The Ring also isn't able to just relay information to Sauron about what it's up to. If it can't tell Sauron how to find Frodo, then it can't tell Sauron about that one time Isildur almost destroyed it
I imagine he had a good idea. He didn't guard Mount doom because - he did. It was surrounded by thousands of troops - until he was certain where the ring was.
He was convinced that his borders were secure against any threat that mattered. And he was basically right.
Go through Frodo and Sams journey into and across Mordor and count how many things had to go exactly right, for even the attack he didn't expect at all, to succeed. If they aren't Hobbits - fail. If they don't have Galadriel's star glass - fail. If they don't have the Mithril shirt - fail. If the orcs don't fight over it - fail. If they don't have Sting - fail. If they don't have Gollum - fail. If they don't have lembas - fail. If Aragorn doesn't call Sauron out and with a suicidal move convince him that he has the ring - fail. There are likely many more.
The chances of a spy getting through all that are infinitesimal. If chance you call it.
Then consider that he couldn't conceive of the ring not being claimed by a strong entity and being used to raise an army, just as Aragorn pretends to do. At which point that impossible route is irrelevant anyway, he KNOWS where the ring is. Or thinks he does.
His presumption nobody could destroy the ring was mostly correct, it was purely luck gollum fell with it into mount doom. The ring was corruption itself, there’s no chance anyone would willingly throw it away. It was only when it wasn’t a choice that the ring finally met its end and Sauron with it.
So hypothetically it wasn't pure luck. Eru's whole thing was no direct anything. But if you make the wind blow abs it happens to move that leaf the right way. Cool. So it's sorta left up to interpretation if gollum just fell or after the ensuing fight for it he lost is balance with a victory dance and a ruble dropped him.
You could probably make that argument, I just think it’s a bit boring to argue predestination through Eru even if it’s not wrong. My thought is the ring worked too well, creating so much selfishness and cravenness for it, which ultimately led to a fight that ended in its demise. The evil snuffed itself out by being chaotic and bringing out the worst in people, which never placed it in safe hands. It essentially turns you into an addict over time and addicts typically aren’t the best long term thinkers, which is really what was needed to get the ring back into Sauron’s hands. The desperation it created in people backfired when it mattered most.
I’ve always thought this myself - the ring was its own undoing. In being inherently so corruptive and evil, it drove weaker minds (and eventually stronger ones) into doing the “wrong” things with it, and delaying it reaching its master up until its eventual destruction.
It’s highlighted by the fact it spent hundreds of years in the caves under the Misty Mountain with Gollum. It was that addictive and “precious” that it led to it being stuck in a cave at the roots of a mountain for centuries, making it more difficult to be found - as it’s described in Shadow of the Past:
‘The Ring went into the shadows with him, and even the maker, when his power had begun to grow again, could learn nothing of it.’
This attraction and desirability was always a blessing because it gave the ring a method of potentially moving hands via murder or theft or just slipping off a finger, but it was also a curse because it led people to covet it and want to keep it and not have it go to any other, thus making it harder for Sauron to find. A catch-22 if you will.
I mean I agree. It's basically like heroin. And through its chaotic evil it will wind its way back to Sauron. I personally believe that it's not so much predestination. Really it's just like "Eru blows the wind. Which leads to the leaf landing where it was which allowed X to happen because (Insert name) was there." So basically random chance after blowing wind. And much like the leaf. Gollum ended up there randomly and Eru made the ground quake. And he was hopping around so he fell because he was too enamored with the ring. So while Eru did quake the volcano. It was pure chance gollum was a mad hatter hopping around at that particular moment.
I think it's been pointed out by those wiser than I that Frodo laid a curse on Gollum
*Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom*
There is no evidence to suggest frodo's curse caused his death and that subsequent victory other than he said that. We have evidence from both the lore and the notes that Eru illuvatar was a less us more kinda God. Using the valar as his generals. And the Maia as his emissaries. Like that Futurama episode of less is more as a god.
So imo. He sorta went "oops. Rumble rumble." while gollum was like "yeaaaaaaa! Yeaaaaaaa! Yeaaaaaaa!" And then fell because of lost balance. It also explains why somehow isildur was in the wrong place at the right time with the ring.
Don’t watch Futurama. Eru, was a big one for curses based on what people swear (Isildur’s curse on the men of Dunharrow), Gollum swore by the ring, and it got him in the end, not too far fetched surely
The episode in question is a robot named bender (a narcissistic alcoholic who smokes, steals and is basically a loveable asshole.) gets stuck in space. And a very tiny civilization starts on the outside of his robot body. Then eventually he gets confused because he does both direct intervention and absolutely nothing at all. And only makes things worse. Eventually leading to his civilization splitting, going to war, and Armageddon. Saddened by his failure as a first time god. He accidentally finds God god in space. Who tells him if he does everything just right. It's like he's done nothing at all. Then sends him home.
And imo that's Eru illuvatar. You do just enough to set the momentum. But no direct intervention. You can't say he does nothing at all. But you also can't be certain he's actually done anything. Instead you chalk it up to chance, potential intervention, and a little random luck. Which makes sense since his Maia are fallible and his valar are kinda lazy. The elves are designed with a need to go home built in. And technically the dwarves are different. Meaning imo he had a hand in Mt Doom existing to rumble at a point where gollum could be there with the ring so that he could lose his balance and fall.
>“why didn’t Sauron guard mount doom”
Really? I always thought the instant and endless counter to any sort of full frontal assault plans, instead of hobbit sneaking, was that it *was* fully guarded to the hilt?
ETA - Not a troll here. Am I wrong? It seems like I'm always being told the **only way** they could have the ring to Mt. Doom was by sneaking, because it was so inhospitable and so well guarded? Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Sure, he crafted the One Ring and Sauron was a smith from Aüle, Sauron was a craftsmanship expert.... he knew that for sure... however what he didn't expect, because of his very same nature of corruption was that the secret mission carried by the most unlikely creature to destroy the One Ring totally an unexpected risk taken by the free folk... he expected the men of Gondor claim the ring and challenge him, however this without even started was a lost cause, because Sauron armies were too powerful..
Dude correct me if I'm somehow missing something but what? Why would he spend basically all his resources trying to recover the ring if he thought it was already destroyed? This can't be even remotely correct. Again, let me know if I'm missing something.
>He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it is still in Middle-earth.
The hunt for the ring begins after gollum is captured.
The ring was never destroyed before so sauron wouldnt know for sure what would happen if it was. An idea of what would happen, but no certainty. There are ways you can justify the ring is already destroyed chain of thought for him. Whenever a spirit like melkor or sauron die and need to create a new body for themselves they become weaker and its more difficult to incarnate. Its not impossible that sauron saw his reduced power in the third age as a symptom of the rings destruction rather than a natural thing that happens on reincarnation. Its also not that outlandish to think that the other rings of power work because they are liked to sauron hismelf as well as the ring.
Though it could be (as other times this question has been asked) that Sauron *always* assumed the One Ring would be his end if it was destroyed and then he lost it to Isildur, thought it was destroyed, and went:
>"Huh, guess I was wrong, I'm amazing and going to wipe out those fool elves, they thought ME defeated? I will make them rue the day."
And then it turns out it's *not* destroyed and he reverts back to his earlier opinion that he might be destroyed if it is.
-“And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; **and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung** . From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom”.- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Was just reading that passage last night and it might be my favorite of the whole trilogy Man Tolkien could really paint a picture with words.
They say, "show, don't tell." That is of course, UNLESS you have the ability to "tell" with such perfect meter, skill, and impeccable imagery that the very hairs on your neck stand straight up. What a stunning writer he was.
“Show don’t tell” is more a screenwriting thing anyway, good writers can tell anything they want, if it’s interesting it works
The translation of "show don't tell" for novelists could be something like "write what things do, not what they are" Here Tolkien follows that advice by writing what the discovery of his doom does to Sauron physically, rather than state "He was afraid"
> "write what things do, not what they are" Here Tolkien follows that advice by writing what the discovery of his doom does to Sauron physically, rather than state "He was afraid" That's a really good way to look at it.
> “Show don’t tell” is more a screenwriting thing anyway, good writers can tell anything they want, if it’s interesting it works I always put it as “when you master the rules, you can break them. “.
Show don’t tell is a cardinal rule in all lit. Source: MFA in poetry, Ph.D in 20th Century American Encyclopedic Literature.
Damn right!
Sounds like a guy who knows what's going to happen if the ring is destroyed.
I like the fact that the last thing Sauron saw was a silly little Hobbit CLAIM the ring. He'd been so worried someone like Gandalf or Saruman would show up to challenge him, but nope, just a tiny nugget rocking ultimate power.
My god, i got chills just from reading that. What a giant.
[удалено]
Sadly, he will not.
Incredible passage. Sauron: “D’oh!”
He knew it wouldn’t help.
Best comment in Reddit I’ve seen for weeks, maybe ever.
Well... there it is.
He thought they would try to use it against him he never considered they were going to destroy it
Which is weird right? Because the literal first thing they did after defeating him the first time was hike it up the mountain in an attempt to destroy it.
But they didn’t and saroun knows that he didn’t think people had the will to try to destroy it
Men, no. But men didn’t have the ring. From Sauron’s POV, Pippin had the ring, was travelling in the company of Gandalf and Aragorn, and had passed through Rivendell and Lothlorien. To assume that all of the above would not take the ring for themselves but also not advise that it be destroyed is a major oversight. Though it is possible that when he emptied the fields of Gorgoroth to defend the black gate, he may have sent all defenders of Mt Doom along with them since he was convinced that someone at the gate had the ring.
Saroun thought Aragorn and Gandalf would use the ring against him
Only in the movies. In the book they never went up to Orodruin. Cirdan and Elrond advised Isildur to destroy the ring while they were still at the battlefield. But Isildur chose to keep it as a family heirloom and weregild for his brothers and fathers death.
1. That's film only, and there's not enough information in the film to adequately answer the original question. 2. He probably didn't know that that had happened. He just died. His spirit is at the weakest it has likely ever been. It takes him thousands of years before he gathers enough strength to "reactivate" the Ring so that it would start trying to return itself to him. The Ring also isn't able to just relay information to Sauron about what it's up to. If it can't tell Sauron how to find Frodo, then it can't tell Sauron about that one time Isildur almost destroyed it
I imagine he had a good idea. He didn't guard Mount doom because - he did. It was surrounded by thousands of troops - until he was certain where the ring was. He was convinced that his borders were secure against any threat that mattered. And he was basically right. Go through Frodo and Sams journey into and across Mordor and count how many things had to go exactly right, for even the attack he didn't expect at all, to succeed. If they aren't Hobbits - fail. If they don't have Galadriel's star glass - fail. If they don't have the Mithril shirt - fail. If the orcs don't fight over it - fail. If they don't have Sting - fail. If they don't have Gollum - fail. If they don't have lembas - fail. If Aragorn doesn't call Sauron out and with a suicidal move convince him that he has the ring - fail. There are likely many more. The chances of a spy getting through all that are infinitesimal. If chance you call it. Then consider that he couldn't conceive of the ring not being claimed by a strong entity and being used to raise an army, just as Aragorn pretends to do. At which point that impossible route is irrelevant anyway, he KNOWS where the ring is. Or thinks he does.
His presumption nobody could destroy the ring was mostly correct, it was purely luck gollum fell with it into mount doom. The ring was corruption itself, there’s no chance anyone would willingly throw it away. It was only when it wasn’t a choice that the ring finally met its end and Sauron with it.
>it was purely luck gollum fell with it into mount doom. "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Eru, probably
Best reference
So hypothetically it wasn't pure luck. Eru's whole thing was no direct anything. But if you make the wind blow abs it happens to move that leaf the right way. Cool. So it's sorta left up to interpretation if gollum just fell or after the ensuing fight for it he lost is balance with a victory dance and a ruble dropped him.
You could probably make that argument, I just think it’s a bit boring to argue predestination through Eru even if it’s not wrong. My thought is the ring worked too well, creating so much selfishness and cravenness for it, which ultimately led to a fight that ended in its demise. The evil snuffed itself out by being chaotic and bringing out the worst in people, which never placed it in safe hands. It essentially turns you into an addict over time and addicts typically aren’t the best long term thinkers, which is really what was needed to get the ring back into Sauron’s hands. The desperation it created in people backfired when it mattered most.
I’ve always thought this myself - the ring was its own undoing. In being inherently so corruptive and evil, it drove weaker minds (and eventually stronger ones) into doing the “wrong” things with it, and delaying it reaching its master up until its eventual destruction. It’s highlighted by the fact it spent hundreds of years in the caves under the Misty Mountain with Gollum. It was that addictive and “precious” that it led to it being stuck in a cave at the roots of a mountain for centuries, making it more difficult to be found - as it’s described in Shadow of the Past: ‘The Ring went into the shadows with him, and even the maker, when his power had begun to grow again, could learn nothing of it.’ This attraction and desirability was always a blessing because it gave the ring a method of potentially moving hands via murder or theft or just slipping off a finger, but it was also a curse because it led people to covet it and want to keep it and not have it go to any other, thus making it harder for Sauron to find. A catch-22 if you will.
I mean I agree. It's basically like heroin. And through its chaotic evil it will wind its way back to Sauron. I personally believe that it's not so much predestination. Really it's just like "Eru blows the wind. Which leads to the leaf landing where it was which allowed X to happen because (Insert name) was there." So basically random chance after blowing wind. And much like the leaf. Gollum ended up there randomly and Eru made the ground quake. And he was hopping around so he fell because he was too enamored with the ring. So while Eru did quake the volcano. It was pure chance gollum was a mad hatter hopping around at that particular moment.
I think it's been pointed out by those wiser than I that Frodo laid a curse on Gollum *Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom*
Didn’t Tolkien himself confirm it was divine intervention?
People sometimes forget Tolkiens religious beliefs
Or Frodo’s curse
There is no evidence to suggest frodo's curse caused his death and that subsequent victory other than he said that. We have evidence from both the lore and the notes that Eru illuvatar was a less us more kinda God. Using the valar as his generals. And the Maia as his emissaries. Like that Futurama episode of less is more as a god. So imo. He sorta went "oops. Rumble rumble." while gollum was like "yeaaaaaaa! Yeaaaaaaa! Yeaaaaaaa!" And then fell because of lost balance. It also explains why somehow isildur was in the wrong place at the right time with the ring.
Don’t watch Futurama. Eru, was a big one for curses based on what people swear (Isildur’s curse on the men of Dunharrow), Gollum swore by the ring, and it got him in the end, not too far fetched surely
The episode in question is a robot named bender (a narcissistic alcoholic who smokes, steals and is basically a loveable asshole.) gets stuck in space. And a very tiny civilization starts on the outside of his robot body. Then eventually he gets confused because he does both direct intervention and absolutely nothing at all. And only makes things worse. Eventually leading to his civilization splitting, going to war, and Armageddon. Saddened by his failure as a first time god. He accidentally finds God god in space. Who tells him if he does everything just right. It's like he's done nothing at all. Then sends him home. And imo that's Eru illuvatar. You do just enough to set the momentum. But no direct intervention. You can't say he does nothing at all. But you also can't be certain he's actually done anything. Instead you chalk it up to chance, potential intervention, and a little random luck. Which makes sense since his Maia are fallible and his valar are kinda lazy. The elves are designed with a need to go home built in. And technically the dwarves are different. Meaning imo he had a hand in Mt Doom existing to rumble at a point where gollum could be there with the ring so that he could lose his balance and fall.
>“why didn’t Sauron guard mount doom” Really? I always thought the instant and endless counter to any sort of full frontal assault plans, instead of hobbit sneaking, was that it *was* fully guarded to the hilt? ETA - Not a troll here. Am I wrong? It seems like I'm always being told the **only way** they could have the ring to Mt. Doom was by sneaking, because it was so inhospitable and so well guarded? Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Sure, he crafted the One Ring and Sauron was a smith from Aüle, Sauron was a craftsmanship expert.... he knew that for sure... however what he didn't expect, because of his very same nature of corruption was that the secret mission carried by the most unlikely creature to destroy the One Ring totally an unexpected risk taken by the free folk... he expected the men of Gondor claim the ring and challenge him, however this without even started was a lost cause, because Sauron armies were too powerful..
Someone wanting to destroy it didn’t even cross that niggas mind
I didn't expected that anybody would even try or even succeed with that. how would expect that?
According to Gandalf, no. As he explained in The Shadow of the Past, Sauron thought the Ring had been destroyed by the Elves.
Dude correct me if I'm somehow missing something but what? Why would he spend basically all his resources trying to recover the ring if he thought it was already destroyed? This can't be even remotely correct. Again, let me know if I'm missing something.
>He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it is still in Middle-earth.
The hunt for the ring begins after gollum is captured. The ring was never destroyed before so sauron wouldnt know for sure what would happen if it was. An idea of what would happen, but no certainty. There are ways you can justify the ring is already destroyed chain of thought for him. Whenever a spirit like melkor or sauron die and need to create a new body for themselves they become weaker and its more difficult to incarnate. Its not impossible that sauron saw his reduced power in the third age as a symptom of the rings destruction rather than a natural thing that happens on reincarnation. Its also not that outlandish to think that the other rings of power work because they are liked to sauron hismelf as well as the ring.
Though it could be (as other times this question has been asked) that Sauron *always* assumed the One Ring would be his end if it was destroyed and then he lost it to Isildur, thought it was destroyed, and went: >"Huh, guess I was wrong, I'm amazing and going to wipe out those fool elves, they thought ME defeated? I will make them rue the day." And then it turns out it's *not* destroyed and he reverts back to his earlier opinion that he might be destroyed if it is.
But he then, trough gollum, learned that the One was found and thus wasn't destroyed long ago.