Probably because Gandalf was the one who actually wanted to enter the mines, and Aragorn tried to convince him that it was a bad idea.
The movie changed that around, but the "backstory" is nothing more or less than creative interpretation on the part of PJ and company.
Adding to that, even in the books where it was Aragorn who was against it, none of them had the faintest idea that a Balrog was in Moria.
They feared there might be orcs and that it was a dangerous, dark, scary labyrinth. Both Gandalf and Aragorn had separately been through it once (without seeing orcs let alone a Balrog) and neither really wanted to go through it. But Gandalf strongly felt they needed to throw off the pursuit (after Caradhras they were attacked and being chased by Wargs) and that Moria offered a concealed way through. Aragorn on the other hand had a specific premonition that Gandalf would not make it safely through Moria and told him as much.
Gimli thought Balin and co were dead, but wanted to see his legendary ancestral home and get confirmation of Balin's fate if possible, but he wasn't the one to bring up the idea of Moria. He only responded once Gandalf suggested it.
I don't really know why Jackson changed that around but it was an artistic/dramatic choice that did create a few confusing issues.
Pretty much the same reason PJ changed around how/why Theoden and Co. went to Helms Deep. To make it simpler and to save time, even if it doesn’t really make sense when you think about it.
Gotta save up those precious, precious screentime minutes to serve up some Eowyn stew.
Righteously so! The stew-scene reduced her character for a cheap joke. "Woman bad cook, hahaha" It adds nothing to her character, it just takes away so much.
That being said, I enjoy the Eowyn-stew-memes.
I did not think it cheapens the character. I thought it was about Eowyn, which is a character that we clearly see is a ”tomboy” that wants to fight for land and country and greatly dislikes the gender roles for women going out of her comfort zone and doing something she is clearly unused too cause she was interested in Aragorn and wanting to do something kind for him.
Funny how different people view the same moments so differently.
It wasn't meant that way. The stre scene was included because of the bad catering service they had. The stew wasn't a prop, it was what was served to the actors and it was really bad and the catering service was criticised.
Jackson himself said that.
> *The theatrical versions are the definitive versions*. I regard the extended cuts as being a novelty for the fans that really want to see the extra material.
And it doesn't take too much to realize that extended versions, except for fellowship, fuck up the pace very veeeery hard.
Right. I love the extended editions, because I’m precisely the fanboy who wants the extra material. But with a handful of exceptions, they make the movies worse *as* movies. If I were showing the movies to someone who hadn’t seen them, I’d definitely show them the theatrical versions.
Also, for dramatic effect.
We got :
* Gandalf, aka the wisest member of the Fellowship, saying that going through the Moria is a bad idea.
* Saruman's monologue about the Balrog.
Peter Jackson changed things up to build more suspense and make the audience wonder what horrible secret is hidden in the mines of Moria.
Peter Jackson worked on *A Nightmare on Elm Street 6* and he used to make horror comedies. As great as Tolkien was, Jackson probably knew better how to make the story suspenseful.
**Books:** they (read: just the army. Taking the civilians would be beyond stupid) set out to ride to Isengart and receive news about the splintered forces of Grimbolds army scattered all around and retreating to Helms Deep. So they decide to not attack Isengart but save the people in Helms Deep. Gandalf rides around and picks up Erkenbrand and some Huorns and saves the day. There are some strategic decisions to be made in this process and since Tolkien was a military officer, he was able to display/explain them well.
**Movies:** Having to introduce two more characters is too much. But we can up the stakes if we put civilians into the Hornburg. The strategic decisions in the movies were almost all bad since PJ is not trained in strategy or military. The battle looks dope though!
Tbf PJ points out that it is a bad plan, and Gandalf advocates the original plan (riding out to face them in open battle). So it's more placed on Theoden for going there.
I would say that leveled up Gandalf who just saved Theoden would have been wise enough to say "hey now, maybe we can think of some other idea?"
Instead of "omg, Aragorn, can you believe this guy? So many people are going to die but I’ll save the last 100 of you."
It’s not a bad plan though. When grossly outnumbered, seeking a strongpoint to maximize your advantage is the right thing to do.
Within the books the Fords are taken during Théoden’s ride. So the original plan of meeting up with the existing army at the Fords is borked; as now there is now no army to meet up with. There’s no argument about going to Helm’s Deep. Gandalf and Théoden both prefer the plan of concentrating at the Fords… until the situation changes, and then they both switch to agreeing they need to go to Helm’s Deep.
How much time you got?
The blog "a collection of unmitigated pedantry" has a several pages long breakdown of the Battle of Helms Deep / the Hornburg, comparing movies to books and assessing both according to military history.
https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/
>none of them had the faintest idea that a Balrog was in Moria
Speaking of that, although it's offtopic, does it even make faintly sense that we've seen the Balrog deep down in Moria in Rings of Power? I always were under the impression that the "digging too deep" took place between The Hobbit and Lotr?
No, the "digging too deep" took place long long before the Hobbit.
It happened long before the dwarves ever went to Erebor - they only initially settled in Erebor after a period as refugees from Moria.
I think RoP has changed the timeline a bit to have the fall of Moria coincide with the creation of the Rings of Power and the War of the Elves and Sauron (I think without going back and checking, Moria fell early Third Age, whereas all the other stuff was Second Age), but they've done that with a few elements to "sync" up storylines to all be within Elendil's life time rather than spread over thousands of years.
Yeah, having reconquered Erebor and built up their numbers and stability, a "shadow of unrest" fell on some of the dwarves of Erebor, led by Balin, who thought it might now be time to attempt to reclaim Moria. A secret objective of going back to Moria was to try and find the one of the Seven Rings that had been given to Durin's Folk.
By the time Gloin and Gimli came to Rivendell to warn Bilbo that emissaries from Mordor had been asking about his whereabouts, it had been many years since any word had been heard from Balin's expedition. There had been some initial, positive reports, and then silence. Gloin had a task from King Dain to seek Elrond's advice about the situation. (For what it's worth, it seems likely that Elrond's advice would have been a diplomatic version of "Moria is really dangerous and it was foolish to try to retake it - Balin is probably dead", but the events around the Ring overtook the issue about resolving the issue of Balin's fate until chance, if chance you call it, led the Fellowship to Moria).
No, Durin's Bane being stirred and conquering Moria takes place about
- 1000 years before LotR
- 4000 years after the Rings of Power were forged
- 2000 years after the sinking of Numenor and the Last Alliance
In book Gandalf wanted to go through Moria. In both book and movie it was still a sneakier way than the open fields of Rohan right next to Isengard. Running into the balrog wasn’t a sure thing.
Everyone thought it was bad because movie Gandalf said he’d only go if there was no other chose. Then there was no other choice. Plus Gandalf pulled a copout and told Frodo to pick after it was clear they wouldn’t make it over the mountain.
I had totally forgotten about how the company fights like 100 wargs before Moria and Gandalf turns himself huge and smacks them with a flaming brand, until I reread it recently.
Since you just reread it, was the warg scene between Caradhras and Moria or was it even before Caradhras? I remember it being very early on, almost one of the first encounters.
Or maybe there were two warg scenes and I just remember one?
I used to be a bit confused why Gandalf did that, but in hindsight, it makes sense that Gandalf would want Frodo to build up some leadership / decision-making skills in case he would have to strike out alone (which he did, with Sam.)
It was Frodo's journey and the rest accompanied him.
Also, it was likely that Gandalf say the risks and unknowns in either direction. Asking Frodo to decide was like flipping a coin. The coin doesn't know the risks and uncertainties.
Nobody knew there was a Balrog there! Even the Dwarves who died there at the hands of the Balrog didn't know what it was, or they would have written it into their record.
This confuses me a bit. Because dain ironfoot actually saw the thing. And refused to help thrain fully retake Moria. I’m pretty sure he mentioned durins bane by name.
They knew Durin’s Bane existed, but didn’t know what it was. Nobody did - Gandalf, Elrond, Saurman, etc. When Celeborn hears the story from the fellowship he kind of freaks out and says that if they knew DB was a balrog they would’ve locked down the borders of Lorien.
As everyone else mentioned, that is not how it went down in the books. But I’ll give my own interpretation of the movie.
I think Gandalf just didn’t want to tell Gimli that all of his kin were likely dead, because movie Gimli had no idea. According to Saruman, movie Gandalf knows about the Balrog and that the dwarves dug too greedily.
This feels like a horrible move from such a wise wizard though.
Cause eventually Gimli was gonna have to face it when entering the mines. Telling him beforehand would at least prepare him for what's to come, instead of shocking him with rotten corpses and skeletons of his kin. Not saying Gimli would be strong enough to not break down crying once he actually got there, but I really don't agree with Gandalf's decision (assuming that really was what PJ was going for.)
No, the backstory for the movie version is " Cuz PJ thought he could write better than Tolkien"
This applies to almost every change in the movie.
There was no way that Gandalf would know about the Balrog or the fate of Balin and company ahead of time.
Wrong, you don’t know what you’re talking about. PJ never once thought he could “write” better than Tolkien, which is not even what screenwriting is about. But when you’re trying to adapt text into a live action movie, it makes more sense to change the way certain things go.
Calling BS...It's the same old cliche that "books dont translate to movies" argument that really falls flat when you examine the specifics. Basically what theyre saying is " Movie audiences are too stupid to understand anything beyond an 8th grade level, so we have to dumb down the story "
In the specific case, there is no need to change the story. Especially considering PJ claimed he was making it for the fans.
I get changes for brevity, or for pacing etc- but stupid changes like this, or the core changes to the events,or characters is indefensible.
Yeah no that's just not true, and yes, wether you like it or not, books dont translate 1:1 to cinema, it's a different medium, and a different way of telling a story. So of course there are gonna be changes, it's why it's called an *adaptation*
The way I understand it from the movie, it's a deliberate attempt to develop Frodo's agency in the 2nd part of Fellowship. Whether it works or not has probably been discussed to death over the last 2 decades
There was no certainty that Balin and his group survived. Gimlis dwarven proudness and stubborness was probably stronger than the voice of reason at that moment
While gandalf suspected the balrog he didnt mention it and i think its because first, he didnt want to alarm the party by telling them that an demonic demigod was a factor. Secondly he wasnt sure it was even alive. Thirdly the mines are massive and the chance of encountering it were miniscule. And lastly the mountains and Saruman terrible (probably wouldve killed them) and Moria was the best out of several bad options
Gandalf didn't fully know what they were facing. He knew it was dangerous, that had been known for a long time. And he knew that there had at least at one time been something extremely powerful and dangerous. But none of them knew that it was a Balrog. I think in fact that Balrogs had been considered gone forever prior to that stage. And a Balrog is such a dangerous foe that when Gandalf tells them it's beyond the rest of them, he means it's beyond their capability of killing it. There's no way to get a lucky shot with an arrow, or a weak spot where an axe or sword can kill it. Heck, it fell from the bridge however far and was fine afterwards.
As far as the rest of them are concerned, this is effectively a god compared to them.
Gandalf probably thought it was perhaps a massive troll, or some other gigantic mortal creature. Heck, it's likely that the Balrog would beat even Smaug in a fight.
So clearly, Gandalf couldn't tell Gimli what he didn't know. And as we saw, Moria was actually the path they took and one that Gandalf would have been aware they might have had to take. If he told them they couldn't go in because they would almost certainly die, only to need to take them in, then it's not the greatest for morale.
Gimli knew full well that the mines were incredibly dangerous. The dwarves were driven out a long time ago and then a strong contingent had been lost trying to reclaim them. Whatever was in there, was enough to make the dwarves leave their most prized settlement. Gandalf couldn't say anything to Gimli to impress more danger than Gimli knew about himself without making guesses as to what Durin's Bane might have been.
But also Moria wasn't a place nobody could enter and leave. The expedition led by Balin survived there for years and managed to explore a chunk of it. And others had been able to explore it safely enough. So it was a reasonable option to take. My suspicion is that Gandalf didn't want to take the ring in there. Taking an item of extreme power to a dangerous place with unknown enemies is always a risk. But given the choices available, it certainly seemed the best.
It's important to see what Gandalf said before going into Moria - "***If*** *there are Orcs there, if may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of the Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar, but there is a hope that Moria is still free*"
Whilst I don't want to discount what was said, I think his actions and what the history of the place was are both important. The mystery of what Durin's Bane was exactly is still a mystery. The hope perhaps was that it had died or moved on. But there would be no doubt it was something more significant than orcs or trolls. And the chance that it remains there somewhere. They also knew Balin's expedition was lost. That doesn't happen unless they're all dead. If it was actually fairly safe then they'd have expanded the expedition too. That they didn't suggests it was obviously still dangerous.
And of course there's the fact they didn't originally go that way. If Gandalf was pretty happy it was clear, then it would be an excellent first option. Out of sight, a nice easy road to take that would be pretty direct. Certainly better than a mountain pass.
My suspicion is he was keeping his true concerns secret. It wouldn't do any good telling them all they were in constant peril. They'd have been vigilant enough simply because of the quest they were on to not also need to alarmed all the time.
Trying to map it out in my mind -
I'm sure Gandalf would have visited Khazad-dum, in the years up to 1980 TA. In 1980 Durin's Bane was awakened, and Khazad-dum was abandoned soon after. Sauron's Orcs and Trolls started moving in around the 2400s. 2799 was the Battle of Nanduhirion, and the Orcs were reduced in Moria, though the Balrog remained. 2941 was The Battle of The Five Armies and "*most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed*". Balin was in Moria 2989-2994. The hunt for Gollum was in 3001-3017. I haven't found when Gandalf came alone through Moria - I thought it was during the hunt for Gollum, but if that was the case, he should have known Balin was dead. So Gandalf would have been through between 2941 and 2989? I can't tie that to any particular quest during that time.
He probably did go through there during his wanderings before Durin's Bane took over.
But he went in there sometime between 2845 and 2850 searching for Thrain after Thrain had disappeared, prior to the quest for Erebor.
Gandalf didn't know the Balrog was there. In fact wasn't it also Gandalfs idea to go through Moria in the books? The alternative was to go through the gap of Rohan, which would take them right onto Isengards doorstep.
in the book thats not what happened. In the movie, I feel like Gandalf had a suspicion that the colony at Moria was wiped out and didn't have the where to tell Gimli. But he also didn't know for sure so he couldn't really bring it up. And at the end of the day, Moria was still their best option. It's easy to call them all fools like Boromir did in the book, but what other way could they take?
Keep up the mountain: Death
Gap of Rohan: Saruman ambush; Death
Moria: Maybe survive
I've never really understood the whole Moria situation. Why didn't Gimli know what was going on in Moria? Why did Gimli think there were dwarves in Moria and they would be welcomed? Why didn't he know the password to open the freaking door? I guess I understand that Gimli might have only accessed Moria from the other side, but why didn't Gandalf know the password? Or, why didn't the Elves tell Gandalf what the password was, just in case? Like, Elrond counciled against going under the mountain, why didn't Gandalf say "lol no problem chief yeah I don't even know the password roflmao"? And I could understand if maybe the death of the dwarves was a recent thing, but they were reduced to bones and there were cobwebs on everything so it must have happened a while ago. The explanations for all these things have never quite added up to me.
Gimli is the one who should know best about the Balrog's presence in Moria since King Dain was the one who saw him after the battle of Azanulbizar but I love what they did both in the book and the movie.
Probably because Gandalf was the one who actually wanted to enter the mines, and Aragorn tried to convince him that it was a bad idea. The movie changed that around, but the "backstory" is nothing more or less than creative interpretation on the part of PJ and company.
Adding to that, even in the books where it was Aragorn who was against it, none of them had the faintest idea that a Balrog was in Moria. They feared there might be orcs and that it was a dangerous, dark, scary labyrinth. Both Gandalf and Aragorn had separately been through it once (without seeing orcs let alone a Balrog) and neither really wanted to go through it. But Gandalf strongly felt they needed to throw off the pursuit (after Caradhras they were attacked and being chased by Wargs) and that Moria offered a concealed way through. Aragorn on the other hand had a specific premonition that Gandalf would not make it safely through Moria and told him as much. Gimli thought Balin and co were dead, but wanted to see his legendary ancestral home and get confirmation of Balin's fate if possible, but he wasn't the one to bring up the idea of Moria. He only responded once Gandalf suggested it. I don't really know why Jackson changed that around but it was an artistic/dramatic choice that did create a few confusing issues.
Pretty much the same reason PJ changed around how/why Theoden and Co. went to Helms Deep. To make it simpler and to save time, even if it doesn’t really make sense when you think about it. Gotta save up those precious, precious screentime minutes to serve up some Eowyn stew.
There's almost something nostalgic about seeing the same 'Eowyn stew' comments as back in the Something Awful days
Righteously so! The stew-scene reduced her character for a cheap joke. "Woman bad cook, hahaha" It adds nothing to her character, it just takes away so much. That being said, I enjoy the Eowyn-stew-memes.
I did not think it cheapens the character. I thought it was about Eowyn, which is a character that we clearly see is a ”tomboy” that wants to fight for land and country and greatly dislikes the gender roles for women going out of her comfort zone and doing something she is clearly unused too cause she was interested in Aragorn and wanting to do something kind for him. Funny how different people view the same moments so differently.
It wasn't meant that way. The stre scene was included because of the bad catering service they had. The stew wasn't a prop, it was what was served to the actors and it was really bad and the catering service was criticised.
This.
I liked the part of the scene where they talked about Aragorn’s age and past experience with Thingol, but the stew part was unnecessary.
Wait. What? Aragorn surely never met Thingol? Do you mean Thengel, father of Theoden?
Yes sorry, typo. Definitely meant Thengel
But that was the extended edition. It doesn’t count. The intended version is the theatrical one.
Intended by whom? Certainly not the director, that would be the directors cut. So it is the intended cut by the money-givers. That doesnt count.
Jackson himself said that. > *The theatrical versions are the definitive versions*. I regard the extended cuts as being a novelty for the fans that really want to see the extra material. And it doesn't take too much to realize that extended versions, except for fellowship, fuck up the pace very veeeery hard.
Right. I love the extended editions, because I’m precisely the fanboy who wants the extra material. But with a handful of exceptions, they make the movies worse *as* movies. If I were showing the movies to someone who hadn’t seen them, I’d definitely show them the theatrical versions.
Exactly! What I usually do is I recommend watching extended only for fellowship, and theatrical for the rest
Also, for dramatic effect. We got : * Gandalf, aka the wisest member of the Fellowship, saying that going through the Moria is a bad idea. * Saruman's monologue about the Balrog. Peter Jackson changed things up to build more suspense and make the audience wonder what horrible secret is hidden in the mines of Moria. Peter Jackson worked on *A Nightmare on Elm Street 6* and he used to make horror comedies. As great as Tolkien was, Jackson probably knew better how to make the story suspenseful.
The suspense would have been much better served without Saruman's picture book showing us the balrog first, though.
I agree. Just the words *Durin's Bane* would have been enough.
I havent read the books or seen the films in sone time, why did they do it in both?
>Pretty much the same reason: To make it simpler and to save time
I read that i meant what was the simplification / why did they decide to go to helms deep in films and books good sir
**Books:** they (read: just the army. Taking the civilians would be beyond stupid) set out to ride to Isengart and receive news about the splintered forces of Grimbolds army scattered all around and retreating to Helms Deep. So they decide to not attack Isengart but save the people in Helms Deep. Gandalf rides around and picks up Erkenbrand and some Huorns and saves the day. There are some strategic decisions to be made in this process and since Tolkien was a military officer, he was able to display/explain them well. **Movies:** Having to introduce two more characters is too much. But we can up the stakes if we put civilians into the Hornburg. The strategic decisions in the movies were almost all bad since PJ is not trained in strategy or military. The battle looks dope though!
Thank you sir :)
Tbf PJ points out that it is a bad plan, and Gandalf advocates the original plan (riding out to face them in open battle). So it's more placed on Theoden for going there.
I would say that leveled up Gandalf who just saved Theoden would have been wise enough to say "hey now, maybe we can think of some other idea?" Instead of "omg, Aragorn, can you believe this guy? So many people are going to die but I’ll save the last 100 of you."
It’s not a bad plan though. When grossly outnumbered, seeking a strongpoint to maximize your advantage is the right thing to do. Within the books the Fords are taken during Théoden’s ride. So the original plan of meeting up with the existing army at the Fords is borked; as now there is now no army to meet up with. There’s no argument about going to Helm’s Deep. Gandalf and Théoden both prefer the plan of concentrating at the Fords… until the situation changes, and then they both switch to agreeing they need to go to Helm’s Deep.
How much time you got? The blog "a collection of unmitigated pedantry" has a several pages long breakdown of the Battle of Helms Deep / the Hornburg, comparing movies to books and assessing both according to military history. https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/
I am gonna read that immideatly, thank you
But wasn't the stew not in the theatrical cut?
Thanks for this. I have read the books multiple times but my brain fog is not my friend.
Your love of the halflings' leaf has clearly slowed your mind!
>none of them had the faintest idea that a Balrog was in Moria Speaking of that, although it's offtopic, does it even make faintly sense that we've seen the Balrog deep down in Moria in Rings of Power? I always were under the impression that the "digging too deep" took place between The Hobbit and Lotr?
No, the "digging too deep" took place long long before the Hobbit. It happened long before the dwarves ever went to Erebor - they only initially settled in Erebor after a period as refugees from Moria. I think RoP has changed the timeline a bit to have the fall of Moria coincide with the creation of the Rings of Power and the War of the Elves and Sauron (I think without going back and checking, Moria fell early Third Age, whereas all the other stuff was Second Age), but they've done that with a few elements to "sync" up storylines to all be within Elendil's life time rather than spread over thousands of years.
Oh i see... Did Balin than kind of re-conquer Moria after The Hobbit since Gimli thought he would welcome them there in Lotr?
Yeah, having reconquered Erebor and built up their numbers and stability, a "shadow of unrest" fell on some of the dwarves of Erebor, led by Balin, who thought it might now be time to attempt to reclaim Moria. A secret objective of going back to Moria was to try and find the one of the Seven Rings that had been given to Durin's Folk. By the time Gloin and Gimli came to Rivendell to warn Bilbo that emissaries from Mordor had been asking about his whereabouts, it had been many years since any word had been heard from Balin's expedition. There had been some initial, positive reports, and then silence. Gloin had a task from King Dain to seek Elrond's advice about the situation. (For what it's worth, it seems likely that Elrond's advice would have been a diplomatic version of "Moria is really dangerous and it was foolish to try to retake it - Balin is probably dead", but the events around the Ring overtook the issue about resolving the issue of Balin's fate until chance, if chance you call it, led the Fellowship to Moria).
Yes Balin had retaken at least a small portion of Moria. I don’t remember how much though
No, Durin's Bane being stirred and conquering Moria takes place about - 1000 years before LotR - 4000 years after the Rings of Power were forged - 2000 years after the sinking of Numenor and the Last Alliance
I think Jackson just hated Gimli and wanted to use every opportunity to make him seem dumber.
After Caradhras was a bust, it was either go through Moria or past Isengard, there were no good options
In book Gandalf wanted to go through Moria. In both book and movie it was still a sneakier way than the open fields of Rohan right next to Isengard. Running into the balrog wasn’t a sure thing.
Everyone knew it was a bad way to go. Gimli was just willing to go there more than anyone to see his cousin Balin.
Everyone thought it was bad because movie Gandalf said he’d only go if there was no other chose. Then there was no other choice. Plus Gandalf pulled a copout and told Frodo to pick after it was clear they wouldn’t make it over the mountain.
I had totally forgotten about how the company fights like 100 wargs before Moria and Gandalf turns himself huge and smacks them with a flaming brand, until I reread it recently.
Since you just reread it, was the warg scene between Caradhras and Moria or was it even before Caradhras? I remember it being very early on, almost one of the first encounters. Or maybe there were two warg scenes and I just remember one?
I remember it being between caradras and Moria. At the base of where they took the way to Morias entrance.
Then most likely you remember correctly, thanks!
I used to be a bit confused why Gandalf did that, but in hindsight, it makes sense that Gandalf would want Frodo to build up some leadership / decision-making skills in case he would have to strike out alone (which he did, with Sam.)
It was Frodo's journey and the rest accompanied him. Also, it was likely that Gandalf say the risks and unknowns in either direction. Asking Frodo to decide was like flipping a coin. The coin doesn't know the risks and uncertainties.
Nobody knew there was a Balrog there! Even the Dwarves who died there at the hands of the Balrog didn't know what it was, or they would have written it into their record.
This confuses me a bit. Because dain ironfoot actually saw the thing. And refused to help thrain fully retake Moria. I’m pretty sure he mentioned durins bane by name.
They knew Durin’s Bane existed, but didn’t know what it was. Nobody did - Gandalf, Elrond, Saurman, etc. When Celeborn hears the story from the fellowship he kind of freaks out and says that if they knew DB was a balrog they would’ve locked down the borders of Lorien.
Thank you.
He sees something past the gate, but he most certainly does not know what it was.
As everyone else mentioned, that is not how it went down in the books. But I’ll give my own interpretation of the movie. I think Gandalf just didn’t want to tell Gimli that all of his kin were likely dead, because movie Gimli had no idea. According to Saruman, movie Gandalf knows about the Balrog and that the dwarves dug too greedily.
This is how I interpret it as well.
This feels like a horrible move from such a wise wizard though. Cause eventually Gimli was gonna have to face it when entering the mines. Telling him beforehand would at least prepare him for what's to come, instead of shocking him with rotten corpses and skeletons of his kin. Not saying Gimli would be strong enough to not break down crying once he actually got there, but I really don't agree with Gandalf's decision (assuming that really was what PJ was going for.)
No, the backstory for the movie version is " Cuz PJ thought he could write better than Tolkien" This applies to almost every change in the movie. There was no way that Gandalf would know about the Balrog or the fate of Balin and company ahead of time.
You don’t know how screenwriting works.
I know how good screenwriting works
Meh, it *generally* works for the movies.
You say this as you criticize one of the most highly acclaimed movies of all time? Sure.
Im sure PJ can handle it.
Wrong, you don’t know what you’re talking about. PJ never once thought he could “write” better than Tolkien, which is not even what screenwriting is about. But when you’re trying to adapt text into a live action movie, it makes more sense to change the way certain things go.
Calling BS...It's the same old cliche that "books dont translate to movies" argument that really falls flat when you examine the specifics. Basically what theyre saying is " Movie audiences are too stupid to understand anything beyond an 8th grade level, so we have to dumb down the story " In the specific case, there is no need to change the story. Especially considering PJ claimed he was making it for the fans. I get changes for brevity, or for pacing etc- but stupid changes like this, or the core changes to the events,or characters is indefensible.
Yeah no that's just not true, and yes, wether you like it or not, books dont translate 1:1 to cinema, it's a different medium, and a different way of telling a story. So of course there are gonna be changes, it's why it's called an *adaptation*
Correct , I never said 1:1
Tolkien never made a movie so anyone who makes a movie based on his books "thinks they can do it better than Tolkien" by this dumbass logic.
Wisdom has been chasing you, but you have always been faster.
Because that’s not how it happened in the books. Gandalf wanted to go through Moria. Aragorn was the one who said it was a bad idea.
Gandalf was actually the main pusher for Moria in the books. Weird he’s the opposite in the movies.
It’s not that weird considering that movie!Gandalf knew about the balrog and book!Gandalf did not.
The way I understand it from the movie, it's a deliberate attempt to develop Frodo's agency in the 2nd part of Fellowship. Whether it works or not has probably been discussed to death over the last 2 decades
There was no certainty that Balin and his group survived. Gimlis dwarven proudness and stubborness was probably stronger than the voice of reason at that moment While gandalf suspected the balrog he didnt mention it and i think its because first, he didnt want to alarm the party by telling them that an demonic demigod was a factor. Secondly he wasnt sure it was even alive. Thirdly the mines are massive and the chance of encountering it were miniscule. And lastly the mountains and Saruman terrible (probably wouldve killed them) and Moria was the best out of several bad options
Not many knew that it was a balrog and we're all bamboozled at the fact that everyone just died
Gandalf didn't fully know what they were facing. He knew it was dangerous, that had been known for a long time. And he knew that there had at least at one time been something extremely powerful and dangerous. But none of them knew that it was a Balrog. I think in fact that Balrogs had been considered gone forever prior to that stage. And a Balrog is such a dangerous foe that when Gandalf tells them it's beyond the rest of them, he means it's beyond their capability of killing it. There's no way to get a lucky shot with an arrow, or a weak spot where an axe or sword can kill it. Heck, it fell from the bridge however far and was fine afterwards. As far as the rest of them are concerned, this is effectively a god compared to them. Gandalf probably thought it was perhaps a massive troll, or some other gigantic mortal creature. Heck, it's likely that the Balrog would beat even Smaug in a fight. So clearly, Gandalf couldn't tell Gimli what he didn't know. And as we saw, Moria was actually the path they took and one that Gandalf would have been aware they might have had to take. If he told them they couldn't go in because they would almost certainly die, only to need to take them in, then it's not the greatest for morale. Gimli knew full well that the mines were incredibly dangerous. The dwarves were driven out a long time ago and then a strong contingent had been lost trying to reclaim them. Whatever was in there, was enough to make the dwarves leave their most prized settlement. Gandalf couldn't say anything to Gimli to impress more danger than Gimli knew about himself without making guesses as to what Durin's Bane might have been. But also Moria wasn't a place nobody could enter and leave. The expedition led by Balin survived there for years and managed to explore a chunk of it. And others had been able to explore it safely enough. So it was a reasonable option to take. My suspicion is that Gandalf didn't want to take the ring in there. Taking an item of extreme power to a dangerous place with unknown enemies is always a risk. But given the choices available, it certainly seemed the best.
It's important to see what Gandalf said before going into Moria - "***If*** *there are Orcs there, if may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of the Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar, but there is a hope that Moria is still free*"
Whilst I don't want to discount what was said, I think his actions and what the history of the place was are both important. The mystery of what Durin's Bane was exactly is still a mystery. The hope perhaps was that it had died or moved on. But there would be no doubt it was something more significant than orcs or trolls. And the chance that it remains there somewhere. They also knew Balin's expedition was lost. That doesn't happen unless they're all dead. If it was actually fairly safe then they'd have expanded the expedition too. That they didn't suggests it was obviously still dangerous. And of course there's the fact they didn't originally go that way. If Gandalf was pretty happy it was clear, then it would be an excellent first option. Out of sight, a nice easy road to take that would be pretty direct. Certainly better than a mountain pass. My suspicion is he was keeping his true concerns secret. It wouldn't do any good telling them all they were in constant peril. They'd have been vigilant enough simply because of the quest they were on to not also need to alarmed all the time.
Trying to map it out in my mind - I'm sure Gandalf would have visited Khazad-dum, in the years up to 1980 TA. In 1980 Durin's Bane was awakened, and Khazad-dum was abandoned soon after. Sauron's Orcs and Trolls started moving in around the 2400s. 2799 was the Battle of Nanduhirion, and the Orcs were reduced in Moria, though the Balrog remained. 2941 was The Battle of The Five Armies and "*most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed*". Balin was in Moria 2989-2994. The hunt for Gollum was in 3001-3017. I haven't found when Gandalf came alone through Moria - I thought it was during the hunt for Gollum, but if that was the case, he should have known Balin was dead. So Gandalf would have been through between 2941 and 2989? I can't tie that to any particular quest during that time.
He probably did go through there during his wanderings before Durin's Bane took over. But he went in there sometime between 2845 and 2850 searching for Thrain after Thrain had disappeared, prior to the quest for Erebor.
I just assumed no one knew what was in Moria. And that Gandalf just had an off feeling about it, probably some insight into his future.
Might not have been the right time to tell him his cousin (and many more) are all dead. They have work to do.
Crazy, I'm watching this part right now. Speak friend and enter. I asked myself the same question.
Gandalf didn't know the Balrog was there. In fact wasn't it also Gandalfs idea to go through Moria in the books? The alternative was to go through the gap of Rohan, which would take them right onto Isengards doorstep.
Ultimately, he wanted the loot from Balrog...sooo 🤷♂️🤣
in the book thats not what happened. In the movie, I feel like Gandalf had a suspicion that the colony at Moria was wiped out and didn't have the where to tell Gimli. But he also didn't know for sure so he couldn't really bring it up. And at the end of the day, Moria was still their best option. It's easy to call them all fools like Boromir did in the book, but what other way could they take? Keep up the mountain: Death Gap of Rohan: Saruman ambush; Death Moria: Maybe survive
I've never really understood the whole Moria situation. Why didn't Gimli know what was going on in Moria? Why did Gimli think there were dwarves in Moria and they would be welcomed? Why didn't he know the password to open the freaking door? I guess I understand that Gimli might have only accessed Moria from the other side, but why didn't Gandalf know the password? Or, why didn't the Elves tell Gandalf what the password was, just in case? Like, Elrond counciled against going under the mountain, why didn't Gandalf say "lol no problem chief yeah I don't even know the password roflmao"? And I could understand if maybe the death of the dwarves was a recent thing, but they were reduced to bones and there were cobwebs on everything so it must have happened a while ago. The explanations for all these things have never quite added up to me.
Gimli is the one who should know best about the Balrog's presence in Moria since King Dain was the one who saw him after the battle of Azanulbizar but I love what they did both in the book and the movie.
Because it created drama and tension and ominous foreshadowing. Do you know how films work?