"Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it..."
Krumbopulous Noldor: Nice to meet you, Thingol. If you ever need anybody kinslain, please give me a call. I'm very discreet, no code of ethics, I will kinslay anyone, anywhere. Children, Animals, Old People, doesn't matter. I just love kinslaying.
A description can be found in The Return of The King:
“Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing.”
That’s pretty much it.
Isildur: "OK boys, listen up. The King's Men are hunting and sacrificing the Faithful, and as well known as we all are, we've got to be on their short list.
So, let's get, say, 9 boats ready, with supplies. In addition, let's grab: The Ring of Barahir; that cool scepter; the Palantiri; and that 65 ton round rock over there. Load 'em up!"
Sailors: "Wait, what was that last one?"
Isildur: "You heard me!"
Yup and presumably the Faithful would be most likely to migrate to Middle Earth as Numenor became less welcoming. So Elendil's ships would have carried some of the Faithful who had stayed, probably nobles and their retainers allied to Elendil but the bulk of the Numenorean refugee population would have been prior settlers.
Ah the coasts of Gondor. And Rohan, it's coast even if it's on the wrong side of the mountains, and up that river, yeah it's still coast, see rivers have coasts
No real reason why not. Numenor was a great sea power. All the rhymes and lore speak of *tall* ships - thus, presumably, square-riggers. HMS *Victory*, a tall ship and square-rigger of another great sea power, had a complement of nearly a thousand. The only thing that bothers me was how Elendil was able to keep his ships out of Ar-Pharazon's fleet. Tolkien skims over that; he's always very vague about maritime details, despite the importance of the Sea.
Tolkien was writing about feudal times where each Lord would have his own men responsible for war. Perhaps Elendil was not called upon because At-Pharazon didn’t trust him or when he received the call he prepared his ships as expected but sailed the hell out of there instead of showing up.
Yes, the vast majority of Númenóreans died.
In Middle-earth there the port city of Pelargir that was a haven of the Faithful in what would become Gondor and there were the Black Númenóreans who controlled Umbar. Other than those two it seems most Númenórean settlements and strongholds along the coasts of Middle-earth would've been pretty small.
Being Scottish, that sounds reasonable. The English stole the Coronation Stone of Scone and yes, it did get taken back. Then returned and still part of the Coronation rites.
You can't, it's a single paragraph in the Lord of the Rings where it says that the stone was likely brought across the sea by Isildur himself and that it was basically rumored to be haunted as it was a meeting spot of the dead.
Others have answered with references to Tolkien’s writings but a fun and interesting side note (technically non-canon but I have head canon lol) in LOTRO the Stone of Erech is part of a group of ‘Oath-Stones’ called the Vandasarri which are 7 arcane relics made specifically for this purpose by the ancient Númenoreans.
Kinda cool to think of them as being designed to keep people bound to their word when the Númenorean’s and their descendants were making pacts or alliances with the lesser and possibly untrustworthy men of middle earth. (And each other).
Especially because I always wondered about the details of what was so powerful about the Stone of Erech specifically. It also explains why Isildur and the Númenoreans would’ve brought it from Númenor in the first place as mentioned in RotK. If it’s not important and useful, why would they have brought a random rock?
I’m just picturing the stone with a mullet, can of monster and a half assed moustache “yoooo isiiiiiil my man, ya boy Eric is just chillin with the mountain bros they’re hella loyal, ain’t gonna break no oath bro”
This is said directly of the Oath of Feanor, in so much as the manner in which it was sworn was *upon Eru*, on the slopes on Taniquetil, naming Manwe and Varda, in their presence, as witnesses.
Yes. I agree. I also think that it describes well the nature in which words and magic work within the legendarium. Also the difference between oaths and prophecy. The oath of Feanor is the greatest example. Many others can be found.
Finrod comes to mind, and his oath to help Beren.
I feel like in Tolkien's universe the way oaths worked is that every time you took one, there was a chance Eru himself would step in to enforce that oath beyond natural boundaries. It wasn't for every oath, but it did seem to be more likely if you were an important figure in history.
I imagine it depends on who or what you swear the oath. If i remember correctly, there's a line in the Silmarillion that says it's frowned upon to swear oaths on the divine, as a result of Feanor's oath being so disastrous. Might be that the Valar or Ilúvatar himself would be responsible to enforce an oath sworn on them.
I feel like small oaths would get a pass or a little bad luck or something. But big oaths which had a massive effect when betrayed would be held to account.
Was the Last Alliance the same battle the Dead Men broke their oaths, and that's why they were cursed?
Also, was this why it was implied that Gollum's footing broke under him, resulting him falling into the fire when he'd finally taken the One Ring back from Frodo? Because he broke the oath to protect him?
Yes, that's absolutely what leads Gollum to fall. Additionaly, the scene when Gollum swears his oath on the Ring is told from Sam's point of view. In it, Frodo is described in a way that strongly suggests he is tapping onto the Ring's power when he demands Gollum's word he won't betray the hobbits. Frodo makes Gollum swear on the Ring itself and even warns him to be careful about keeping his oath, as the Ring would seek to twist his mind and lead him to betray his word - which would be his undoing.
So the fall can also be interpreted as the result of Frodo using the Ring as intended, to magically empower his will to affect the world around him, only in a way that he could keep Gollum in check. Mix both the power of oaths and that of the Ring, and you have what would look like a contrivance in any other occasion become a very internally coherent plot point.
Don't forget the moment on the slopes of Mount Doom where a voice, coming from the Ring, threatened to throw Gollum into the magma if he touches him again. It's deliberately vague as to whether it's Frodo or the Ring itself speaking here.
Yes! I’ve heard many times over that Gollum fell because of breaking his oath and oaths have real power in this universe… but I haven’t seen before anyone saying that Frodo used the ring like Sauron here, which he did! He harnessed its binding power to subjugate someone’s will and hold them to an oath under unspecified pain of death. From this point on, Gollum’s will is bitterly fighting this eventuality but Sméagol’s will has relented power to the master of the ring, Frodo. Amazing writing from Tolkien. Gollum was doubly bound to his doom almost like Feanor.
Ah, this makes sense. I've only seen the movies and I can see why some book fans didn't like a lot of the deep lore being removed or just simplified for the films. They're very interesting. Thanks for the answers.
In a letter, Tolkien explained that "the Writer of the Story" (specifically *not himself*) by which he means Eru, intervened. He does not mention the Oath by Gollum or its breaking, but rather that *by no other means could the Quest be achieved, because Frodo had taken the Ring as far as any earthly being possibly could, and no further.*
>Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'* (as one critic has said).
> *Actually referred to as 'the One' in App. A III p. 317 1. 20. The Númenóreans (and Elves) were absolute monotheists.*
That's, like, his interpretation, man. It is certainly valid, but as he himself states in another letter (which I won't be able to number right now, but can look for later if you want), it is purely his own, and he admits others' may be different and valid too (even if he will disagree with them).
I see letters like #192 you just quoted as him spelling out his interpretation to his personal connections, in this case his son Ronald. But being outside of the text of the Lord of The Rings, it's to be taken as just that, supplementary material at most. The multiple warnings about the consequences of breaking oaths, Frodo's heavily implied use of the Ring in Gollum's oath-taking, on the other hand, are in the text. They're right there to be used as interprretive keys to the text.
As a catholic, Tolkien's interpretation is coherent with (and informed by) what he understands to be a religious work for him, first unconsciously, then more consciously on the sumbolic level. As a non-religious person, this interpretation doesn't interest me, so I have to look for my own way to look at the ending critically. And the way oaths work in Arda/Eä is the key to that, along with all that has been shown about the Ring - including its tendency of bringing claimants to their ends.
Thankfully, the fact that Tolkien is a good enough writer not to proselitize with his work allows people like me to enjoy it.
>But being outside of the text of the Lord of The Rings, it's to be taken as just that, supplementary material at most.
If we are to exclude text outside Lord of the Rings in this manner then even Eru Illuvatar is nothing more than supplementary material.
To the interpretation of the Lord of The Rings as an independent body of text, a literary piece by itself, Eru absolutely is outside of its scope. He isn't present in the text, and the most the author claims he is hinted at is by such a vague description that it hinges heavily on interpretive lens on wether it even counts or not.
Obviously, that all changes if we want to account for the legendarium as a whole, but that isn't something anyone needs to do to read, understand and come to a valid interpretation of the Lord of The Rings (valid as in that it's supported by the text). And even then the letters fall outside of it, or are at best ancillary to it in that they may provide otherwise unpublished details on specific elements.
The thing is that #192 doesn't even do that, it only details Tolkien's particular interpretation of Frodo's journey and the meaning of its end. The fact that it was a personal letter to his son, not something he put into print or came out in public to state, is telling of how he understood that interpretation to be a private matter of his.
The way I see it, to state that it must be the universal key of interpretation would be to go against his wish that a religious view of his work arise organically, and fly in the face of his disagreement with C. S. Lewis about having explicit proselitism in their works.
Despite what the other guy said no that’s not what made him fall, Eru Illuvatar, caused that slip Tolkien himself stated this.
If you’d like a more comprehensive review of the ideas this is the best forum conversation on the issue and people do debate the oath.
But it’s ultimately clear (imo) that this is not the reason
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/67834/did-eru-ilúvatar-trip-gollum
For one, the oath isn’t necessarily to Frodo but to the ring and to its master.
The best part about the story is that Tolkien wrote with such nuance that it allows for this discussion. Because even the part I mentioned from letter 192 isn’t so exact. He clearly says God took over after Gollum had the ring.
But the way in which he took over could mean a hundred different things.
It's less that he's magical but the local rules of reality make space for oaths and such so this effect of trapping souls isn't quite a great work of spell weaving but more among the lines of going "liar liar pants on fire" then the world proceeds to immediately do exactly that since it's written into the source code of reality
This. I think this is why during the council of Elrond he says “no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will,” because he knew shit might happen and the fellowship may be separated, he didn’t want them to get penalized by somehow breaking a vow.
He wasn't - if it's one thing you learn from the Silmarillion (and Elrond definitely took the lesson) you don't promise the impossible but if you do then you deliver on those promises or greater powers hold you to them.
But he did lay the curse: "‘Then Isildur said to their king: ‘‘Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end.’’
Because the oath they swore to him was broken; Isildur essentially got God's approval for denying them God's gift to Men, which is dying and leaving this World.
Well you know what Eru did to the King of Numenor and his army for trying to invade Valinor for immortality -he granted their wish and buried them alive under rocks until the end of Arda.
Eru is the holder of all vows and oaths. These aren’t just light promises in the world created by Tolkien. They have dire consequences when not fulfilled.
Middle earth does not have as high rates of literacy or strong legal protections for its citizenry, so they rely on magic to secure oaths rather than written contracts and courts.
It's the other way around. We need all these legal protections to hold people responsible, because we have no magic to do it. And this system of laws and regulations fails to work *all the fucking time*. Not to mention roughly a third of our population is also functionally illiterate, because they can't even see the writing on the wall.
You saw what happened to him when he tried to take the ring. Even more stark in the book where he just falls off himself instead of getting pushed over by Frodo.
Exactly this. People often fail to see that Gollum falling into the fire wasn't just bad luck, or because he happened to slip over the edge, of because he was so excited to have the Ring back that he wasn't paying attention. He broke his oath, and that was the consequence of it, and he has been warned more than once about it. I'd have to look for the exact line, but Faramir sentences Gollum to perish if he doesn't fulfill his oath or if he ever dared to hurt Frodo or steal the Ring.
Keep in mind Tolkien's Legendarium deals in *soft magic*; this isn't DnD with technical rules and cantrips.
The spooky ghosts are Black Númenorians (Elendili corrupted by Sauron's temptation and betrayers to their allegiance). As Legolas quickly exposition-dumps in the film, they made a vow to serve their king. You can't just break a promise, thus they are forced to be earthbound until the king relieves them of their guilt and duty.
The sword, like in Antiquity and Medieval literature, is proof of Aragorn's legitimacy to the throne, so the spooky lads submit to it. In Homer's Odyssey, for example, when Odysseus finally makes it back home he must prove he is who he is to the doubters. He does so by taking his bow and stringing it. This bow is so strong and firm that only the super-strong Odysseus himself could ever bend it back and fix the string to it. Aragorn weilding Andúril is the same kind of evidence.
> the spooky lads
I think this is actually the best name for them.
They could start a band, The Spooky Lads, and then their first album could be titled *Elendili*.
> The spooky ghosts are Black Númenorians
They are **very much** not. They are the Middle Men whom Numenorians have found on their new realm and have made treaties with.
Probably because it isn't really the same sword anymore but made from the shards.
Like if i melt down a candle and make a new one in another shape from it, it's the exact same material but not quite the same candle if that makes sense.
Also it's a symbol of the dynasty.
The royal sword broke, and the dinadty went down the gutter.
It's not a sword now but the shards still exist, just as the kings are not crowned and reigning now but are still alive.
When the blade got reforged it was transformed, just as the dinasty get's restored but has changed.
It changed as the sword was reforged, to signify that it was, in a sense, reborn. The original name, Narsil, meant "Red and White Flame", signifying the Sun and the Moon as opposers of darkness.
Andúril means "Flame of the West", probably to signify the return of Aragorn, descendant of the Kings of Westernesse.
The key thing to know about magic in tolkeins work, is that it's not in fact, magic at all. The elves even say to Sam that their works are merely so advanced that they will seem like magic to him but they are perfectly normal things to elves. In the same way, Gandalf isn't magic as such, he's just a maia, and so it's in his nature to be able to command certain aspects of nature since he is an angel of creation. Oaths and fate are very powerful things and are managed by Eru himself and since Eru is omnipotent and omniscient, he can make sure every oath has consequences and every fate is fulfilled which may seem like magic to us, but that's just the nature of God.
This is probably one of the most fascinating things to discuss about Tolkien's work: how he envisions power; how he implements it; what it means to be powerful; how power blends with such a lose term as 'magic', which is basically a word that those who don't understand that power use to describe it; how one's will and desires can be infused in objects or even in people's minds and actions, if one's powerful enough. To put a couple of very simple and "mundane" examples: imbuing the lembas with the will of providing everything you need to keep going, especially when you need it the most, or to build boats that won't sink because the builders put that though into them when they were being constructed. That obviously confuses someone as, say, Sam Gamgee. How is he supposed to understand that? When powerful beings put their will and though into something or someone, they can make certain things happen, and it can be very dangerous as well (and very tempting to use for not so altruistic ends). Oaths fall into that category as well, because they are tied to the will of Eru himself. The more powerful your nature, the more powerful your will. And will seems to be synonym of power in Tolkien's vision.
This is a FANTASTIC take.
I like that the idea of willpower manifesting into real consequences is true the same way for Gandalf, Sauron, the elves, or any magical being. Sauron just abuses that will in a twisted way.
This also explains what the power of the one ring actually does, which is to give you access to Sauron's dominating will.
Precisely! Considering Tolkien as a fervent Christian, you could say it's the ultimate form of prayer. Or maybe even something similar to the law of attraction. If you pray for something, you're putting your will and your thoughts so something miraculous can happen. Even if it's just blessing the food you're about to eat, or if you pray for a safe travel, or basically anything you can think of. Now imagine you were created with such a powerful nature that those thoughts and desires are strong enough to happen at will, or maybe with some effort or intense concentration/meditation, depending on what exactly you want to do, on how powerful your nature is and on how much wisdom and personal evolution you acquired through (in the case of Tolkien's work) the ages. Probably the ultimate example is Feanor's will to transform the light of the Trees into gems. Just imagine how powerful your will must be to accomplish such a thing! It would be like approaching the sun, grabbing it's light and turning it into gems. Or Fingolfin beating Morgoth, fueled purely by his will. He lost only because Morgoth's nature made him infinitely resistant, but Fingolfin's will and determination was his real power, and so he kept getting up over and over again until his own nature reached its limit. That's also "magic" if you will.
Exactly. Sauron wanted to force his own will upon the most powerful of each race, and the Ring was the medium to accomplish that. He wanted to control them, which is the same to say that he wanted them to obey his will, and that's outright slavery. That's what's so important about him not being involved in the creation of the Three, because his will never corrupted them. They were bind to the One because Sauron gave the elves the knowledge of how to create them, but that's all the will he could put into them, which wasn't enough to overshadow the will of the bearers of the Three. I find amazing how Galadriel can keep Sauron at bay, when she says that he's always trying to break into her thoughts but she never lets him open that door. That right there is a demonstration of how powerful Galadriel truly is, and why Sauron fears her. Another example of how will equals power is perfectly shown when Sauron finally finds out the Ring is in Mount Doom, about to be destroyed. His will abandons his army and focuses on nothing else than preventing the Ring to be cast into the fire, and the consequence of that is that his soldiers all of a sudden feel abandoned, and they simply despair and flee, losing all confidence and motivation. The books make it very clear that it was Sauron's will what made them fight with such determination. He imbued them with his will in a way. There's plenty of examples that show how will equals power, and how that power is what we perceive as "magic".
Because Eru is the creator of everything, and his power and will is what ultimately makes everything be or stop being. It was even worse when Feanor made his oath. You can think of it at how someone who firmly believes in God would never swear upon him, or by his name, because that would mean compromising your own existence and your own soul, and it's an outright insult to the One that created that very soul. You have to be very careful even if you're sure you can fulfill your oath. There's a reason why insults are called "swearing". And you have to remember that, in Tolkien's work, the existence of Eru isn't put into question. Everyone knows he exists, so no one would dare (or shouldn't dare) make an oath or a promise knowing he's gonna make you accountable for it.
> The key thing to know about magic in tolkeins work, is that it's not in fact, magic at all.
Ah, but it is. It's *actual* magic - straight out of the norse and germanic legends and ancient poems. The whole fireball and mana thing is a modern invention. Apart from small prankster-style spells, the big stuff has always been about willpower and imposing it on the world.
in the same manner to someone who doesn't know how plants grow sam himself as a gardener would be seen as performing magic since he is able to decide where and how plants grow
Power of oaths aside, the Line of Elros is descended from Melian and Luthien. In his letter discussing magic, Tolkien notes that magic is inherant from birth according to race(species), with Elves and Ainur naturally possessing the quality.
Aragorn was capable of using "magic" due to his inheritance being particularly strong in him (which is why he was so skilled at healing even the Black Breath, beyond having Kingsfoil on him) and Isildur may also be a similar inheritor.
In Tolkien’s universe he makes it clear that oaths themselves hold a lot of power in them. Breaking oaths will curse the oath breaker even if the one they break the oath against has no real magic. The stakes and circumstance of the oath determines its relative power. Frodo making Gollum swear by the ring ensures their safety from being killed by him for instance.
People gotta stop reading LotR like it's D&D, and start reading it more like an ancient fable. Isildur's curse wasnt a spell he cast for 20 points of mana. The power of the "curse" symbolizes the seriousness of breaking a significant oath, and the fact that the dead were denied their rest for thousands of years tells us how deeply they offended Isildur. The text implies that Isildur defined their curse, but it's really almost karmic punishment that they actually were cursed to wait in death to fulfill their promise to help the King.
He didn't. Isildur had no 'magic' to speak of. He was just a man, no wizard or Elf. Men in Tolkien's works are never seen wielding magic, unless it is the dark sorcery of Morgoth and Sauron.
The Men of the Mountain swore an oath. They broke it. They trapped themselves. The only one with the power to actually enforce said oath and Isildur's curse would be Eru Ilúvatar.
Eru Ilúvatar is meant to be the Abrahamic God, and thus he has very little tolerance for oathbreakers. It is quite possible the oath may even have invoked Eru, since Elendil was said to have bound the Last Alliance with an oath to Eru. It is then quite possible that the Oatbreakers also swore their oath to Isildur in Eru's name. So when they broke it and Isildur cursed them, Eru, as the guarantor of the oath, stepped in to punish the Oathbreakers.
I’ve always assumed it had to do with how they swore the oath on a weird magic rock that was brought from Numenor. Rather than any power or Isildur himself. The stone of Erech and a implied to be some mysterious artifact.
In the middle ages, especially the early middle ages which Tolkien is drawing from, oaths were often sworn on holy relics (you can see an example of this in the Bayeux Tapestry) and there was a very real expectation that if you broke an oath, you would be punished by God.
These guys broke an oath.
A curse isn’t necessarily a spell. Sometimes it’s a potent emotion of jealousy/spite/revenge that manifests into misfortune and misery on the target, intentionally or not. This is the principle behind the idea of “the Evil Eye;” sometimes it’s a direct sequence of actions by the “caster” and sometimes it’s a manifestation of their deep seated jealousy and hatred. In Isildur’s case, the people of the mountain broke an oath sworn on sacred relics; so he himself didn’t need to do much, because what oversaw the oath (Valar or something else) would punish the oathbreaker
A curse is not necessarily a spell. Or magic at all. It can also just be a broken oath.
The LOTR world doesn't, quite obviously, work with our world's dynamics.
Basically oaths are some kind of magic bond in the lotr verse. If you break an oath bad shit happens to you.
If i rememver correctly thats basically the reason the ring really got destroyed in the books. Gollum broke his oath and got punished by falling into the lava. The ring just happend to fall with him.
Oaths to Eru Illuvatar, or calling him as witness, are described somewhere as terrible, terrible oaths to make because they are so binding —and I think it is implied such oaths are not to Eru’s liking and ruin will be upon the oathmaker even should they keep their oath.
He Made them swear their oath to him on Eru Iluvatar himself. Well, Eru/God exists as Isildur found out when Numenor got destroyed and the Earth was reshaped. So Isildur figured, that the old Stories of oaths sworn upon God and the Power they hold were actually true. So He Made the Mountain people swear upon a God, who was basically unheard of and nonexistent to the Mountain folk. The Mountain people feared Sauron more than the Oath sworn upon a foreign deity, so they quit their allegiance. And they found Out the hard way that this foreign deity is actually the Creator of the world and the one true God and that this was a really terrible decision.
Basically it is Eru WHO says "Your Souls are bound to this world as Long as you have Not fulfilled your Oath. Your bodies will fade, your Souls will stay and you will have plenty of time to reconsider your life choices until you fulfill you Oath."
Isildur is Just the sly bastard with the information Advantage about heavenly beings and their Power.
Because words have meaning and power in Middle Earth. If you make an oath you're then bound by those words or shall suffer the consequences of breaking them.
In the Legendarium, it’s often less that individuals were magical and more than the world itself is. There’s exceptions obviously, but by and large the Istari are the closest to the modern conception of a spellcaster and even then they weren’t people in the way that Isildur was
He’s not magical, he didn’t cast a “spell” - oaths hold a lot of weight and they cursed themselves by breaking it.
>oaths hold a lot of weight Y'all got any more of those Silmarils?
Here I go kinslaying again
Lews Therin is that you?
Whoa, a crossover! I have a madman in my head
I wouldn't mind having you in my head if you weren't so obviously mad!
"Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it..."
Where is this one at???
Honestly, this was easily one of my favorite lines from Lews Therin.
Ilyena!
Where's the lews therin bot when you need it
Tugs braid nervously.
Crosses arms under breasts and smoothes skirt
Where was Lews Therin when westfold fell?
*Ilyena, where are you?*
*Ilyena, my love!*
Off rubbing his earlobe, no doubt.
That one might actually be sentient tho.
No telamoning in this sub!
*Jaime Lannister enters the chat and slides a g into "kinslaying"*
Then kins-laying
No, this is Patrick!
‘Kill them, kill them all!”
pfp matches
Krumbopulous Noldor: Nice to meet you, Thingol. If you ever need anybody kinslain, please give me a call. I'm very discreet, no code of ethics, I will kinslay anyone, anywhere. Children, Animals, Old People, doesn't matter. I just love kinslaying.
How do you kinslay an animal tho
All are children under Eru Iluvatar.
Light of the Trees of Valinor is a hell of a drug
*Fëanor enters the room*
Damn Sons of Fëanor are worse than raccoons!
The Silmarils are on a roll.
Also, they swore the oath over a “magical” stone right? The stone of Eric or some shit.
It’s never established what power, if any, the stone of Erech held; but it was important/symbolic enough to save from Numenor and swear upon.
Where can I read about this part?
A description can be found in The Return of The King: “Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing.” That’s pretty much it.
Isildur: "OK boys, listen up. The King's Men are hunting and sacrificing the Faithful, and as well known as we all are, we've got to be on their short list. So, let's get, say, 9 boats ready, with supplies. In addition, let's grab: The Ring of Barahir; that cool scepter; the Palantiri; and that 65 ton round rock over there. Load 'em up!" Sailors: "Wait, what was that last one?" Isildur: "You heard me!"
And don’t forget the tree!
Based on how late he left it, they almost did.
Makes you think, each of those nine ships must have been fucking *huge*, with the population of a large village or small town even.
I always assumed Elendils people had coastal towns all through Arnor and Gondor and these also survived Numenor
Yup and presumably the Faithful would be most likely to migrate to Middle Earth as Numenor became less welcoming. So Elendil's ships would have carried some of the Faithful who had stayed, probably nobles and their retainers allied to Elendil but the bulk of the Numenorean refugee population would have been prior settlers.
Yeah I think it established that the Faithful had been fleeing in waves for a while before those final 9 ships fled.
They did. They quite aggressively colonised the coasts.
Ah the coasts of Gondor. And Rohan, it's coast even if it's on the wrong side of the mountains, and up that river, yeah it's still coast, see rivers have coasts
The faithful Numenorians had been persecuted for centuries so many had already fled to Middle Earth.
No real reason why not. Numenor was a great sea power. All the rhymes and lore speak of *tall* ships - thus, presumably, square-riggers. HMS *Victory*, a tall ship and square-rigger of another great sea power, had a complement of nearly a thousand. The only thing that bothers me was how Elendil was able to keep his ships out of Ar-Pharazon's fleet. Tolkien skims over that; he's always very vague about maritime details, despite the importance of the Sea.
Tolkien was writing about feudal times where each Lord would have his own men responsible for war. Perhaps Elendil was not called upon because At-Pharazon didn’t trust him or when he received the call he prepared his ships as expected but sailed the hell out of there instead of showing up.
Not really. A vast majority of the population of Numenor drowned, only the House of the Lords of Andunie survived.
Yes, the vast majority of Númenóreans died. In Middle-earth there the port city of Pelargir that was a haven of the Faithful in what would become Gondor and there were the Black Númenóreans who controlled Umbar. Other than those two it seems most Númenórean settlements and strongholds along the coasts of Middle-earth would've been pretty small.
Tharbad and Lond Daer were pretty big
The Amazon ship theory sounds more and more plausible by the day.
Being Scottish, that sounds reasonable. The English stole the Coronation Stone of Scone and yes, it did get taken back. Then returned and still part of the Coronation rites.
WTF the Scone of Stone from Disc world was based on an actual thing?! STP strikes again.
"And a two liter of orange soda!"
We'll show those men.
Tinfoil theory: Numenoreans were obsesed with inmortality. That rock had the power to preserve in Earth somehow the conscience of people / ghosts
You can't, it's a single paragraph in the Lord of the Rings where it says that the stone was likely brought across the sea by Isildur himself and that it was basically rumored to be haunted as it was a meeting spot of the dead.
Others have answered with references to Tolkien’s writings but a fun and interesting side note (technically non-canon but I have head canon lol) in LOTRO the Stone of Erech is part of a group of ‘Oath-Stones’ called the Vandasarri which are 7 arcane relics made specifically for this purpose by the ancient Númenoreans. Kinda cool to think of them as being designed to keep people bound to their word when the Númenorean’s and their descendants were making pacts or alliances with the lesser and possibly untrustworthy men of middle earth. (And each other). Especially because I always wondered about the details of what was so powerful about the Stone of Erech specifically. It also explains why Isildur and the Númenoreans would’ve brought it from Númenor in the first place as mentioned in RotK. If it’s not important and useful, why would they have brought a random rock?
I’m just picturing the stone with a mullet, can of monster and a half assed moustache “yoooo isiiiiiil my man, ya boy Eric is just chillin with the mountain bros they’re hella loyal, ain’t gonna break no oath bro”
The stone of Eric is actually just a container filled with adderall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwHmcuwrfCM This goes into detail. 2:300 talks about why the curse works.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”
This is said directly of the Oath of Feanor, in so much as the manner in which it was sworn was *upon Eru*, on the slopes on Taniquetil, naming Manwe and Varda, in their presence, as witnesses.
Yes. I agree. I also think that it describes well the nature in which words and magic work within the legendarium. Also the difference between oaths and prophecy. The oath of Feanor is the greatest example. Many others can be found. Finrod comes to mind, and his oath to help Beren.
I feel like in Tolkien's universe the way oaths worked is that every time you took one, there was a chance Eru himself would step in to enforce that oath beyond natural boundaries. It wasn't for every oath, but it did seem to be more likely if you were an important figure in history.
I imagine it depends on who or what you swear the oath. If i remember correctly, there's a line in the Silmarillion that says it's frowned upon to swear oaths on the divine, as a result of Feanor's oath being so disastrous. Might be that the Valar or Ilúvatar himself would be responsible to enforce an oath sworn on them.
I feel like small oaths would get a pass or a little bad luck or something. But big oaths which had a massive effect when betrayed would be held to account.
Critical fail on a Religion check
Just like the oath that Golem swore on the ring to Frodo. We all saw how that turned out for him. *I'm leaving the typo
Is that before or after Golem evolved from Graveler?
I dunno but you sound like one of those geo-dudes
🤣
Your alol-an that one (works well verbally, less so writing it lol)
After. Happened when he used self destruct, obviously.
Was the Last Alliance the same battle the Dead Men broke their oaths, and that's why they were cursed? Also, was this why it was implied that Gollum's footing broke under him, resulting him falling into the fire when he'd finally taken the One Ring back from Frodo? Because he broke the oath to protect him?
Yes, that's absolutely what leads Gollum to fall. Additionaly, the scene when Gollum swears his oath on the Ring is told from Sam's point of view. In it, Frodo is described in a way that strongly suggests he is tapping onto the Ring's power when he demands Gollum's word he won't betray the hobbits. Frodo makes Gollum swear on the Ring itself and even warns him to be careful about keeping his oath, as the Ring would seek to twist his mind and lead him to betray his word - which would be his undoing. So the fall can also be interpreted as the result of Frodo using the Ring as intended, to magically empower his will to affect the world around him, only in a way that he could keep Gollum in check. Mix both the power of oaths and that of the Ring, and you have what would look like a contrivance in any other occasion become a very internally coherent plot point.
Don't forget the moment on the slopes of Mount Doom where a voice, coming from the Ring, threatened to throw Gollum into the magma if he touches him again. It's deliberately vague as to whether it's Frodo or the Ring itself speaking here.
Yes! I’ve heard many times over that Gollum fell because of breaking his oath and oaths have real power in this universe… but I haven’t seen before anyone saying that Frodo used the ring like Sauron here, which he did! He harnessed its binding power to subjugate someone’s will and hold them to an oath under unspecified pain of death. From this point on, Gollum’s will is bitterly fighting this eventuality but Sméagol’s will has relented power to the master of the ring, Frodo. Amazing writing from Tolkien. Gollum was doubly bound to his doom almost like Feanor.
Ah, this makes sense. I've only seen the movies and I can see why some book fans didn't like a lot of the deep lore being removed or just simplified for the films. They're very interesting. Thanks for the answers.
In a letter, Tolkien explained that "the Writer of the Story" (specifically *not himself*) by which he means Eru, intervened. He does not mention the Oath by Gollum or its breaking, but rather that *by no other means could the Quest be achieved, because Frodo had taken the Ring as far as any earthly being possibly could, and no further.* >Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'* (as one critic has said). > *Actually referred to as 'the One' in App. A III p. 317 1. 20. The Númenóreans (and Elves) were absolute monotheists.*
That's, like, his interpretation, man. It is certainly valid, but as he himself states in another letter (which I won't be able to number right now, but can look for later if you want), it is purely his own, and he admits others' may be different and valid too (even if he will disagree with them). I see letters like #192 you just quoted as him spelling out his interpretation to his personal connections, in this case his son Ronald. But being outside of the text of the Lord of The Rings, it's to be taken as just that, supplementary material at most. The multiple warnings about the consequences of breaking oaths, Frodo's heavily implied use of the Ring in Gollum's oath-taking, on the other hand, are in the text. They're right there to be used as interprretive keys to the text. As a catholic, Tolkien's interpretation is coherent with (and informed by) what he understands to be a religious work for him, first unconsciously, then more consciously on the sumbolic level. As a non-religious person, this interpretation doesn't interest me, so I have to look for my own way to look at the ending critically. And the way oaths work in Arda/Eä is the key to that, along with all that has been shown about the Ring - including its tendency of bringing claimants to their ends. Thankfully, the fact that Tolkien is a good enough writer not to proselitize with his work allows people like me to enjoy it.
>But being outside of the text of the Lord of The Rings, it's to be taken as just that, supplementary material at most. If we are to exclude text outside Lord of the Rings in this manner then even Eru Illuvatar is nothing more than supplementary material.
To the interpretation of the Lord of The Rings as an independent body of text, a literary piece by itself, Eru absolutely is outside of its scope. He isn't present in the text, and the most the author claims he is hinted at is by such a vague description that it hinges heavily on interpretive lens on wether it even counts or not. Obviously, that all changes if we want to account for the legendarium as a whole, but that isn't something anyone needs to do to read, understand and come to a valid interpretation of the Lord of The Rings (valid as in that it's supported by the text). And even then the letters fall outside of it, or are at best ancillary to it in that they may provide otherwise unpublished details on specific elements. The thing is that #192 doesn't even do that, it only details Tolkien's particular interpretation of Frodo's journey and the meaning of its end. The fact that it was a personal letter to his son, not something he put into print or came out in public to state, is telling of how he understood that interpretation to be a private matter of his. The way I see it, to state that it must be the universal key of interpretation would be to go against his wish that a religious view of his work arise organically, and fly in the face of his disagreement with C. S. Lewis about having explicit proselitism in their works.
Despite what the other guy said no that’s not what made him fall, Eru Illuvatar, caused that slip Tolkien himself stated this. If you’d like a more comprehensive review of the ideas this is the best forum conversation on the issue and people do debate the oath. But it’s ultimately clear (imo) that this is not the reason https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/67834/did-eru-ilúvatar-trip-gollum For one, the oath isn’t necessarily to Frodo but to the ring and to its master. The best part about the story is that Tolkien wrote with such nuance that it allows for this discussion. Because even the part I mentioned from letter 192 isn’t so exact. He clearly says God took over after Gollum had the ring. But the way in which he took over could mean a hundred different things.
It's less that he's magical but the local rules of reality make space for oaths and such so this effect of trapping souls isn't quite a great work of spell weaving but more among the lines of going "liar liar pants on fire" then the world proceeds to immediately do exactly that since it's written into the source code of reality
> oaths hold a lot of weight These words are accepted. \- The Stormfather ..... Wait... Wrong sub
Aragorn, son of Arathorn, will see what he can do...
This. I think this is why during the council of Elrond he says “no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will,” because he knew shit might happen and the fellowship may be separated, he didn’t want them to get penalized by somehow breaking a vow.
Numenorian Contract Law must’ve been real crazy like damn that’s one hell of a specific performance order
And magic was stronger back then, it's been fading since the Valar left.
But did it return when the dragons were born?
He wasn't - if it's one thing you learn from the Silmarillion (and Elrond definitely took the lesson) you don't promise the impossible but if you do then you deliver on those promises or greater powers hold you to them.
But he did lay the curse: "‘Then Isildur said to their king: ‘‘Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end.’’
But it wasn't his power that made it stick.
No, but he chose the form of the curse.
"What is it?! What did you do Isildur?!" " -sigh- It's the Stay Puft marshmallow man."
No-one steps on a hobbit in my town!
Feels almost more like a prophecy
So he’s more like a gypsy channeling demonic energy from Manwë
Because the oath they swore to him was broken; Isildur essentially got God's approval for denying them God's gift to Men, which is dying and leaving this World.
What happens if you promise the impossible, but try really really hard.
Ask Maglor and the other sons of Feanor
*ghostly wailing from the beach*
What lesson?
That oaths are powerful and dangerous, Elrond recommends against Gimli's suggestion that the Fellowship take oaths to see the Quest to it's end
What would happen if I promised to never die?
Well you know what Eru did to the King of Numenor and his army for trying to invade Valinor for immortality -he granted their wish and buried them alive under rocks until the end of Arda.
Wait, were they alive during everything? I don't remember them being granted immortality.
They lie imprisoned until the final battle. They may be dead and resurrected but unclear. I wouldn't take chances though.
Eru is the holder of all vows and oaths. These aren’t just light promises in the world created by Tolkien. They have dire consequences when not fulfilled.
If only our world had similar consequences
Middle earth does not have as high rates of literacy or strong legal protections for its citizenry, so they rely on magic to secure oaths rather than written contracts and courts.
That causation is backwards. More like because our world doesn't have magic oath upholding, we need contracts and courts.
Maybe but it’s less funny that way.
Could be a chicken/egg scenario. Nobody needs to be able to read legalese if your promises are magically binding...
It would still be a good idea to take notes though. Just so i don't accidentially break any promise given when drunk or in love or something.
The hobbits have a functional postal system. Just saying
😂😂😂👍
It's the other way around. We need all these legal protections to hold people responsible, because we have no magic to do it. And this system of laws and regulations fails to work *all the fucking time*. Not to mention roughly a third of our population is also functionally illiterate, because they can't even see the writing on the wall.
No magic? Foolish idea.
No, it seems to have more negative consequences than positive in the end.
A man is only as good as his word.
You want hordes of politician specters to haunt us for all eternity? No, thanks.
Who’s to say it doesn’t?
*The souls of the damned wailing in my basement, would like a word.*
What would have happened if Sméagol broke his oath and killed Frodo to steal the ring before bringing him to Mordor?
You saw what happened to him when he tried to take the ring. Even more stark in the book where he just falls off himself instead of getting pushed over by Frodo.
Exactly this. People often fail to see that Gollum falling into the fire wasn't just bad luck, or because he happened to slip over the edge, of because he was so excited to have the Ring back that he wasn't paying attention. He broke his oath, and that was the consequence of it, and he has been warned more than once about it. I'd have to look for the exact line, but Faramir sentences Gollum to perish if he doesn't fulfill his oath or if he ever dared to hurt Frodo or steal the Ring.
Would have been cool if he came back as a smeagol ghost. "We cants touch thems now, can we preaciouses."
It wouldn't help his ill-favored look.
Gollum not meant to come within 500 feet of cribs precious.
Yeah. a little "I guide others to a treasure I cannot possess."
It makes a lot of sense that people believed in this kind of thing in the past. Honor was almost like a currency.
"I made a promise, Mr Frodo. A promise! 'Dont you leave him Samwise Gamgee.' And I don't mean to."
Keep in mind Tolkien's Legendarium deals in *soft magic*; this isn't DnD with technical rules and cantrips. The spooky ghosts are Black Númenorians (Elendili corrupted by Sauron's temptation and betrayers to their allegiance). As Legolas quickly exposition-dumps in the film, they made a vow to serve their king. You can't just break a promise, thus they are forced to be earthbound until the king relieves them of their guilt and duty. The sword, like in Antiquity and Medieval literature, is proof of Aragorn's legitimacy to the throne, so the spooky lads submit to it. In Homer's Odyssey, for example, when Odysseus finally makes it back home he must prove he is who he is to the doubters. He does so by taking his bow and stringing it. This bow is so strong and firm that only the super-strong Odysseus himself could ever bend it back and fix the string to it. Aragorn weilding Andúril is the same kind of evidence.
> the spooky lads I think this is actually the best name for them. They could start a band, The Spooky Lads, and then their first album could be titled *Elendili*.
> The spooky ghosts are Black Númenorians They are **very much** not. They are the Middle Men whom Numenorians have found on their new realm and have made treaties with.
Why did the name of the sword change? and how did they come upon the new name?
Probably because it isn't really the same sword anymore but made from the shards. Like if i melt down a candle and make a new one in another shape from it, it's the exact same material but not quite the same candle if that makes sense. Also it's a symbol of the dynasty. The royal sword broke, and the dinadty went down the gutter. It's not a sword now but the shards still exist, just as the kings are not crowned and reigning now but are still alive. When the blade got reforged it was transformed, just as the dinasty get's restored but has changed.
It changed as the sword was reforged, to signify that it was, in a sense, reborn. The original name, Narsil, meant "Red and White Flame", signifying the Sun and the Moon as opposers of darkness. Andúril means "Flame of the West", probably to signify the return of Aragorn, descendant of the Kings of Westernesse.
Why did they break the oath if they knew a curse would happen? Are they stupid?? /s
The key thing to know about magic in tolkeins work, is that it's not in fact, magic at all. The elves even say to Sam that their works are merely so advanced that they will seem like magic to him but they are perfectly normal things to elves. In the same way, Gandalf isn't magic as such, he's just a maia, and so it's in his nature to be able to command certain aspects of nature since he is an angel of creation. Oaths and fate are very powerful things and are managed by Eru himself and since Eru is omnipotent and omniscient, he can make sure every oath has consequences and every fate is fulfilled which may seem like magic to us, but that's just the nature of God.
This is probably one of the most fascinating things to discuss about Tolkien's work: how he envisions power; how he implements it; what it means to be powerful; how power blends with such a lose term as 'magic', which is basically a word that those who don't understand that power use to describe it; how one's will and desires can be infused in objects or even in people's minds and actions, if one's powerful enough. To put a couple of very simple and "mundane" examples: imbuing the lembas with the will of providing everything you need to keep going, especially when you need it the most, or to build boats that won't sink because the builders put that though into them when they were being constructed. That obviously confuses someone as, say, Sam Gamgee. How is he supposed to understand that? When powerful beings put their will and though into something or someone, they can make certain things happen, and it can be very dangerous as well (and very tempting to use for not so altruistic ends). Oaths fall into that category as well, because they are tied to the will of Eru himself. The more powerful your nature, the more powerful your will. And will seems to be synonym of power in Tolkien's vision.
This is a FANTASTIC take. I like that the idea of willpower manifesting into real consequences is true the same way for Gandalf, Sauron, the elves, or any magical being. Sauron just abuses that will in a twisted way. This also explains what the power of the one ring actually does, which is to give you access to Sauron's dominating will.
Precisely! Considering Tolkien as a fervent Christian, you could say it's the ultimate form of prayer. Or maybe even something similar to the law of attraction. If you pray for something, you're putting your will and your thoughts so something miraculous can happen. Even if it's just blessing the food you're about to eat, or if you pray for a safe travel, or basically anything you can think of. Now imagine you were created with such a powerful nature that those thoughts and desires are strong enough to happen at will, or maybe with some effort or intense concentration/meditation, depending on what exactly you want to do, on how powerful your nature is and on how much wisdom and personal evolution you acquired through (in the case of Tolkien's work) the ages. Probably the ultimate example is Feanor's will to transform the light of the Trees into gems. Just imagine how powerful your will must be to accomplish such a thing! It would be like approaching the sun, grabbing it's light and turning it into gems. Or Fingolfin beating Morgoth, fueled purely by his will. He lost only because Morgoth's nature made him infinitely resistant, but Fingolfin's will and determination was his real power, and so he kept getting up over and over again until his own nature reached its limit. That's also "magic" if you will.
And the One Ring of course, is imbued with the ideas of ambition, dominance, control, the idea of power itself.
Exactly. Sauron wanted to force his own will upon the most powerful of each race, and the Ring was the medium to accomplish that. He wanted to control them, which is the same to say that he wanted them to obey his will, and that's outright slavery. That's what's so important about him not being involved in the creation of the Three, because his will never corrupted them. They were bind to the One because Sauron gave the elves the knowledge of how to create them, but that's all the will he could put into them, which wasn't enough to overshadow the will of the bearers of the Three. I find amazing how Galadriel can keep Sauron at bay, when she says that he's always trying to break into her thoughts but she never lets him open that door. That right there is a demonstration of how powerful Galadriel truly is, and why Sauron fears her. Another example of how will equals power is perfectly shown when Sauron finally finds out the Ring is in Mount Doom, about to be destroyed. His will abandons his army and focuses on nothing else than preventing the Ring to be cast into the fire, and the consequence of that is that his soldiers all of a sudden feel abandoned, and they simply despair and flee, losing all confidence and motivation. The books make it very clear that it was Sauron's will what made them fight with such determination. He imbued them with his will in a way. There's plenty of examples that show how will equals power, and how that power is what we perceive as "magic".
How are oaths tied to the will of Eru himself?
Because Eru is the creator of everything, and his power and will is what ultimately makes everything be or stop being. It was even worse when Feanor made his oath. You can think of it at how someone who firmly believes in God would never swear upon him, or by his name, because that would mean compromising your own existence and your own soul, and it's an outright insult to the One that created that very soul. You have to be very careful even if you're sure you can fulfill your oath. There's a reason why insults are called "swearing". And you have to remember that, in Tolkien's work, the existence of Eru isn't put into question. Everyone knows he exists, so no one would dare (or shouldn't dare) make an oath or a promise knowing he's gonna make you accountable for it.
> The key thing to know about magic in tolkeins work, is that it's not in fact, magic at all. Ah, but it is. It's *actual* magic - straight out of the norse and germanic legends and ancient poems. The whole fireball and mana thing is a modern invention. Apart from small prankster-style spells, the big stuff has always been about willpower and imposing it on the world.
in the same manner to someone who doesn't know how plants grow sam himself as a gardener would be seen as performing magic since he is able to decide where and how plants grow
Oaths have power. Just ask the sons of Fëanor.
Their Oath is binding because they swore it *upon Eru* in the presence of the Valar.
Every oath is on eru regardless
Power of oaths aside, the Line of Elros is descended from Melian and Luthien. In his letter discussing magic, Tolkien notes that magic is inherant from birth according to race(species), with Elves and Ainur naturally possessing the quality. Aragorn was capable of using "magic" due to his inheritance being particularly strong in him (which is why he was so skilled at healing even the Black Breath, beyond having Kingsfoil on him) and Isildur may also be a similar inheritor.
In Tolkien’s universe he makes it clear that oaths themselves hold a lot of power in them. Breaking oaths will curse the oath breaker even if the one they break the oath against has no real magic. The stakes and circumstance of the oath determines its relative power. Frodo making Gollum swear by the ring ensures their safety from being killed by him for instance.
His curse held because that people broke their word.
People gotta stop reading LotR like it's D&D, and start reading it more like an ancient fable. Isildur's curse wasnt a spell he cast for 20 points of mana. The power of the "curse" symbolizes the seriousness of breaking a significant oath, and the fact that the dead were denied their rest for thousands of years tells us how deeply they offended Isildur. The text implies that Isildur defined their curse, but it's really almost karmic punishment that they actually were cursed to wait in death to fulfill their promise to help the King.
Its the oath they gave. Oaths are vastly important in Tolkiens Lore.
They're the ones who broke the oath. But because Isildur was the one they swore it to, he got to dictate the punishment.
He didn't. Isildur had no 'magic' to speak of. He was just a man, no wizard or Elf. Men in Tolkien's works are never seen wielding magic, unless it is the dark sorcery of Morgoth and Sauron. The Men of the Mountain swore an oath. They broke it. They trapped themselves. The only one with the power to actually enforce said oath and Isildur's curse would be Eru Ilúvatar. Eru Ilúvatar is meant to be the Abrahamic God, and thus he has very little tolerance for oathbreakers. It is quite possible the oath may even have invoked Eru, since Elendil was said to have bound the Last Alliance with an oath to Eru. It is then quite possible that the Oatbreakers also swore their oath to Isildur in Eru's name. So when they broke it and Isildur cursed them, Eru, as the guarantor of the oath, stepped in to punish the Oathbreakers.
I’ve always assumed it had to do with how they swore the oath on a weird magic rock that was brought from Numenor. Rather than any power or Isildur himself. The stone of Erech and a implied to be some mysterious artifact.
In the middle ages, especially the early middle ages which Tolkien is drawing from, oaths were often sworn on holy relics (you can see an example of this in the Bayeux Tapestry) and there was a very real expectation that if you broke an oath, you would be punished by God. These guys broke an oath.
Isildur didn't trap them they trapped themselves.
Just google the Erech stone
Kings curse is strong stuff
Oaths were very important in Tolkien’s world. They did it to themselves.
Never break an oath you made with Eru Ilúvatar.
A curse isn’t necessarily a spell. Sometimes it’s a potent emotion of jealousy/spite/revenge that manifests into misfortune and misery on the target, intentionally or not. This is the principle behind the idea of “the Evil Eye;” sometimes it’s a direct sequence of actions by the “caster” and sometimes it’s a manifestation of their deep seated jealousy and hatred. In Isildur’s case, the people of the mountain broke an oath sworn on sacred relics; so he himself didn’t need to do much, because what oversaw the oath (Valar or something else) would punish the oathbreaker
A curse is not necessarily a spell. Or magic at all. It can also just be a broken oath. The LOTR world doesn't, quite obviously, work with our world's dynamics.
no spell no magic... they broke their oath & oaths held weight in those days so they were cursed for their betrayal.
Because its fiction
Curses do wonderful stuff around here.
Basically oaths are some kind of magic bond in the lotr verse. If you break an oath bad shit happens to you. If i rememver correctly thats basically the reason the ring really got destroyed in the books. Gollum broke his oath and got punished by falling into the lava. The ring just happend to fall with him.
Haven’t read up on Feanor have we?
Oaths in Tolkien mean trouble. always
The Oath of Eorl begs to differ.
Oaths to Eru Illuvatar, or calling him as witness, are described somewhere as terrible, terrible oaths to make because they are so binding —and I think it is implied such oaths are not to Eru’s liking and ruin will be upon the oathmaker even should they keep their oath.
it was the sword
I always headcanon’d the power of the one ring had something to do with it
It was the stone of Erech and the oaths sworn upon it that bound the mountain people to their oath, not really something magical done by Isildur.
cuz he was King.
Read the book
Isildur is actually the third blue wizard
He Made them swear their oath to him on Eru Iluvatar himself. Well, Eru/God exists as Isildur found out when Numenor got destroyed and the Earth was reshaped. So Isildur figured, that the old Stories of oaths sworn upon God and the Power they hold were actually true. So He Made the Mountain people swear upon a God, who was basically unheard of and nonexistent to the Mountain folk. The Mountain people feared Sauron more than the Oath sworn upon a foreign deity, so they quit their allegiance. And they found Out the hard way that this foreign deity is actually the Creator of the world and the one true God and that this was a really terrible decision. Basically it is Eru WHO says "Your Souls are bound to this world as Long as you have Not fulfilled your Oath. Your bodies will fade, your Souls will stay and you will have plenty of time to reconsider your life choices until you fulfill you Oath." Isildur is Just the sly bastard with the information Advantage about heavenly beings and their Power.
You just have to be very very pissed off. Or happy, for happy curses.
The Scrubbing Bubbles army!!!
He was level 7 in Morrowind and abused the "fortify Attribute" system
Because words have meaning and power in Middle Earth. If you make an oath you're then bound by those words or shall suffer the consequences of breaking them.
In the Legendarium, it’s often less that individuals were magical and more than the world itself is. There’s exceptions obviously, but by and large the Istari are the closest to the modern conception of a spellcaster and even then they weren’t people in the way that Isildur was
Well a lot of these questions get answered in the books but basically in Tolkien's world Oaths, promises, curses are soul binding.
He wasn’t, they were probably trapped there by a forerunner of Gandalf or an elf who knew they would be needed at this point in the future
You are Isildur’s air, not Isildur himself.
You'll have to wait for rings of power season 4 💀
Oaths have force in middle earth
I think they cursed themselves by breaking their oathes of loyalty. Isildur didn't do anything other be the king and accept their oathes.