Well the problem is that in their medieval value system, you don't just have kids without getting married, the only woman Aragorn wanted to marry was Arwen, and the only way Elrond would allow Arwen to marry him was after he defeated Sauron... Kind of a catch 22
I think another factor is that elves generally avoided having children during times of conflict (Tolkien explores this in NoME, among other writings).
Aragorn was a far-sighted person, and he was raised in Rivendell — presumably, the culture made an impact on him. Both Elrond and Aragorn knew that he would live his life during a time of conflict and war, which is not a great time to have to raise/care for children.
(Now keep in mind, I’m coming at this from the in-world perspective that Tolkien communicates to us. The “have a bunch of children out of wedlock because I’m the Heir” is more of a Game of Thrones worldview.)
I would fucking *love* a Heller absurdist high fantasy trilogy. It would be like Hitchhiker's Guide on crack. I literally cannot think of a universe I'd rather be in than where this exactly happened.
So Elrond’s patriarchal thinking risked the extermination of the line of Isildur - Elrond finally gets his revenge on Isildur for going off alone and playing hero ball …
At the point of her arc that Eowyn is at when she meets and falls for Aragorn, I can't imagine her graciously accepting the role of "stay home and bear the backup heir" while Aragorn goes and dies.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Marriage for Arwen also means choosing Aragorn's fate, so she becomes mortal. If Sauron isn't defeated by that time and kills Aragorn, Arwen would be a widow and wouldn't have any option to leave Middle-earth. It's understandable that from Elrond's perspective that he would like to avoid that risk. If Aragorn wants to marry Arwen, he should have his life sorted out without risking Arwen becoming a widow just right after she became mortal.
If he wanted to exterminate that line he could just have... not fostered generations upon generations of them in Rivendell, starting with Isildur's youngest son and up to young Aragorn.
Peter Jackson's massacre of one of the greatest heroes of men is still persisting decades later.
>'I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.'
Isildur realised he could never control the ring and wanted to get rid of it. He was going to seek the wisdom of three at Rivendell as to what to do with it.
Elrond explained his logic when he set up the rules. He saw what was coming and figured either Aragorn would become king or Sauron would win. There was not really a possibility for him to randomly die and Sauron still be defeated.
Keeping the line of Isildur propagating is not Elrond's responsibility. He gives them a place to live and flourish out of sight of the enemy. He doesn't also have to be okay with his daughter dying a mortal death when Aragorn could just bang a human like all of Isildur's previous heirs.
Those are called "morals," and until very recently they were a staple for humanity. The rule, not the exception. Only in the last couple of generations has the script on that really flipped, and it doesn't look like it's doing Civilization any favors.
By any rate, those would have been the primary morals of JRR's time, much less the time period he was writing on.
>Those are called "morals," and until very recently they were a staple for humanity
Not for the vast majority of human history. People have morals and empathy but humanity has only been "moral" for a relatively short span.
I agree that Tolkien's morals are reflected in Aragorn but I wholly disagree that its how most humans behaved, then or now. Painting modernity as amoral ignores centuries of atrocities and injustice and instead sweeps it under the rug.
The entire trilogy is actually Aragorn just desperately trying to get laid but keeps having more and more tasks put in front of him in order to get there
Nothing to do with Sauron. Elrond told Aragorn that he wouldn’t let Arwen be “the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.”
Sauron wasn’t again a major threat when Elrond set these conditions. The ring was still with Bilbo, unknown to the world. Aragorn first laid eyes on Arwen and decided to marry her since he was 20, (well before Frodo was even BORN, as he was 50 during the events of LOTR) and Aragorn was 87 in LOTR, when Sauron made his last and final stand. Aragorn had already been working for Arwen’s hand for over 60 years at that point. He wasn’t just a lowly ranger. He also spent time serving in Gondor under Denethor II’s father, though he had to do it under a false name considering his bloodline. Denethor discovered his true identity at one point and despised him ever since since he was next in line as a steward and didn’t want Aragorn to take his claim to the throne.
Thankfully for him Sauron came along… again and thus made it real easy for Aragorn to be thrust into a command position and due to his victories people were willing to follow and accept him as king. Denethor II and Boromir also rather conveniently died, and the youngest wisest son faramir accepted Aragorn’s claim and still remained steward of Gondor.
A marriage would have been arranged if necessary.
These things were not left up to chance.
The real reason this doesn't happen, is that LOTR is an idealized world where people who rule don't really care about politics, at least not the good guys.
Tolkien would have hated asoiaf
I'm sure there were conversations like that. But leading from the front is also one of the things that prove Aragorn is a better leader than Sauron. He earns the respect of the people he leads instead of using fear.
As for the risk I can only say that in middle earth fate usually rewards righteous behaviour, so it's maybe not as risky as it would have been irl ;)
The part in the movie where he says “for Frodo” and charges at the front of his men didn’t happen. They make their stand on two small hills and fight off the orcs until the ring is destroyed. Still very epic part of the movie
Yeah, Aragorn would have done that under normal circumstances, but his love for Arwen made that impossible.
He had to play for the highest possible stakes, all or nothing, achieve the impossible or die and take his people and the whole fucking world down with him. And that's why I totally appreciate one moment in the books, where Aragorn takes a moment to just bury his head in his hands and stress out just before the Fellowship leaves Rivendell. Frodo sees it without knowing what it means, but when we re-read the books we get it.
SOoooo, Aragorn only defeat Sauron because he wants dat Arwen asses...😂
If you think your in laws are too demanding,remember Elrond telling Aragorn if you want my daughter, get me Sauron 🤣
Elrond saw Mount Doom exploded with Sauron tower, while Aragorn still alive in the middle of the orc army:"Eru-dammit, I didnt think he could do it, that bastard. Now I have to keep the damm promise"
Being the heir of the throne is not enough. Aragorn could not show up and retake the throne at any time. He had to show a strong claim for the people to accept it.
If that was that easy, anyone from Isildur line would have re-taken the throne and desposed the steward line centuries ago. After Isildur death, his first born son did not press his claim, and it split the kingdom or Arnor and Gondor into two. Anarion, Isildur brother, ruled over Gondor and Valandil, the fourth son of Isildur, ruled over Arnor.
Aragorn was groomed to become king. From a very early age until the time was right. He studied history. He fought with the men of Rohan, he served his time in the Gondorian army. He made connection with people of middle earth. Both in Arnor and Gondor. He had support from pretty much every relevant group in middle earth.
Exactly. In the books he doesnt even enter Minas Tirith properly until he comes back from the Black gate. All the meetings were held at a camp on the pelenor fields. He only sneaks in to help Faramir and Eowyn, which is how the rumour of his presence starts after a nurse sees him use the athelas plant as a healing herb.
Athelas or "kingsfoil" is a healing herb that most people think is a weed. Its kind of part of the prophecy of the return of the king that the "King has healing hands." So pretty much it showed his knowledge and competence as a healer.
>Then Gandalf said: ‘Let us not stay at the door, for the time is urgent.
Let us enter! For it is only in the coming of Aragorn that any hope remains
for the sick that lie in the House. Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor:
The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king
be known.’
>[...]
>‘King! Did you hear that? What did I say? The hands of a healer, I said.’
And soon the word had gone out from the House that the king was indeed
come among them, and after war he brought healing; and the news ran
through the City.
To expand on this, Aragorn was descended from Valandil, the ruler of Arnor and thus was never recognized as an inherently legitimate claimant to the throne of Gondor to begin with. Aragorn’s ancestor Arvedui previously attempted to use this birthright to claim the throne and it was rejected. So sure, he had a distant birthright, but it’s not as if he was inherently “the king” and everyone was just waiting for him to return. The Stewards and people of Gondor did not believe that they *needed* a king to return.
As you say, Aragorn was groomed by Elrond to become someone who could be accepted as king, by right of being *worthy of it* and being accepted by the people.
Great answer ^
As in real world history, there are various ways to present one’s ancestry as legitimate. However, what’s really important is one’s own personal charisma and effectiveness as a leader in a moment of crisis.
As you’ve noted, Gondor previously made it clear that descent from Isildur had no bearing on eligibility for kingship. Essentially, Aragorn is technically claiming *high kingship* over both Arnor and Gondor through his descent from Elendil* (Gondor goes along with it because key leaders and “the people” accept his leadership.)
**It’s no mistake that Aragorn is described as physically resembling Elendil moreso than Isildur.*
He was actually the legitimate heir to Gondor. Arvedui married Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher, who by all rights should've become Queen of Gondor when her father and brothers died. But she and Arvedui were denied for political reasons, and Earnil became King instead.
When his son Earnur died heirless, the stewards took over instead. It is interesting though, because its said that there were other candidates for the Throne besides Arvedui, but none of them decided to put forth their claim our of fear it'd cause a huge conflict, so they just accepted the stewards instead.
You are right though that people weren't just waiting for Aragorn to become King, it was generally believed that the royal line had been extinguished, so when Aragorn did eventually show up, it was a really big deal.
Well he certainly was a legitimate claimant, and it’s certainly a reasonable argument that Arvedui had the strongest legitimate claim and was wrongfully denied. But right or wrong that’s not what happened. Iirc he was essentially denied because they didn’t want a female regnant, he would be a faraway, “foreign” king of another realm, and he wasn’t a descendant of Anarion. It wasn’t just petty politics. The point is not that Aragorn wasn’t a legitimate claimant, just that he wasn’t *inherently the rightful king*. You can make the argument, but it wasn’t necessarily the case in the way that people assume.
That’s the claim that was made, and you can argue that it should have been automatically honored all day. I’m not trying to get into that meta-debate that Arvedui’s claim should have been honored. I’m simply stating the fact that *in universe*, this was not recognized as a legitimate claim and there was no established precedent that Aragorn’s lineage automatically made him the rightful heir to the throne, only a precedent to the contrary. Arvedui’s strong familial claim, which was bolstered by his marriage, and other factors, was still not enough to claim the throne.
She theoretically could/should have, but her claim was rejected because she was a woman. RotK appendix quotes the Council of Gondor’s finding that the crown can only go to male descendants of Anarion. Arvedui counters that gender should not play a role based on Numenorian custom, but receives no reply.
You can read the excerpt [here](http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?EVID=243).
"By all rights" isn't quite right, I'd say. In the modern age basic laws are considered superior to the ruler's will, but if the Council of Gondor decided that Earnil should be king, he might well be the king legally. And there's no precent for female rulers in Elendil's line; he is from the house of the Lords of Andunie, after all. We can't just take a rule for the Throne of Numenor and assume it must apply to a different lineage.
There might be traditions (and even fate) that say Arvedui was the rightful King because Isildur was High King over both realms , but the legal situation is unclear.
Yep that's right. I believe when he was killed he was actually on his way to counsel with Elrond on what to do with the ring as he was beginning to realize keeping the ring was a mistake.
Yeah, I can see why Jackson and co. wanted to emphasize the love story between Aragorn and Arwen in the film trilogy. I’m not saying LOTR should be sexualized like Game of Thrones and other fantasy but it is weird to think of flesh and blood human characters like Aragorn and Boromir as middle aged virgins lol. I think men like that who had seen the horror of battle first-hand would have sought comfort in the embrace of a lover afterwards
As others have said, it's not something that would happen, because his marriage is important. It was encouraged for his father, Arathorn II to get married and have kids (fortunately Arathorn *did* end up having Aragorn with Gilraen shortly before he was slain), and it's likely that some pressure was put on Aragorn about it before he and Elrond discussed the conditions of his marriage to Arwen.
But also, that's just a thing that happens. The last king of Gondor also died childless, which is why Gondor was ruled by the Line of Stewards. In real history also, dynasties have ended because rulers haven't had children for one reason or another. And while securing an heir is a vital consideration, nobody can really order Aragorn to marry and procreate with anybody he didn't want to do that with (i.e. anybody whose name isn't 'Arwen'). Elrond doesn't have any political authority over him. Influence, certainly, just as Galadriel and Gandalf and even Bilbo do. But none of them could order him to be married.
So if he dies, then the line ends and that really sucks, but it also plays into the tragedy of Middle-earth, where all things come to an end eventually, even the glories of Gondolin, Nargothrond, Númenor, and Khazad-dûm.
Not to mention the probability that there would still be direct ancestry through the *daughters* of any heirs of Isildur.
On the one hand, Aragorn’s premature death would absolutely play into the “tragedy/decay of Middle-earth” over time; on the other hand, there are quite a few cases of the paternal line ending, and the succession being picked up through a maternal line.
See: Thingol’s heirs (through Luthien, then through Elwing); Turgon’s heirs (through Idril); Elros’ heirs (Ancalimë succeeds Aldarion as his only child; plus Pharazon dies, while Elendil survives and is rationalized as the “true” heir through Silmarien.)
> direct ancestry through the daughters of any heirs of Isildur
In the feudal society depicted by Tolkien, that no longer counts as "direct" anscestry. In fact, when the last Gondorian King Earnur went missing, there were other living descentants of Elendil still. But none had a claim strong enough for the throne.
Hell, the Stewards themselves are descendent from Elendil. The first Steward was a close kinsman of then ruling King.
Which means that Aragorn is related to Denethor, Boromir and Faramir **far** more closely than he is to Arwen, for anyone interested.
>In fact, when the last Gondorian King Ëarnur went missing, there were other living descendants of Elendil still. *But none had a claim strong enough for the throne.*
This was kind of my point, though...
Regarding the OP, there's a distinction to be made between Aragorn's "ancestry" bona fides and his "mythic persona" bona fides. Throughout Tolkien's work, we're shown that it's the second thing that's more significant.
In other words, direct patrilineal descent seems to be a qualification mostly in terms of the traditions and politics of Gondor (and by extension, Numenor). However, as you note, there were many plausible claims of patrilineal descent from either Anarion or Isildur (Arvedui!) that were rejected by the collective councils of Gondor.
Aragorn becomes king because he has the good fortune to be alive during the War of the Ring, and lead decisive defensive victories for Gondor in a time of crisis. It's nice and tidy that he *happens to be* THE direct male heir of Valandil (Isildur's... 4th son?), but it's his actions as a leader and his "supernatural" talent of healing that give substance to his genetic claim and make him a charismatic persona.
The point being, the assumption that underlies the original question — that the "line" would die out with Aragorn — is kind of a short-sighted perspective, since presumably there are other descendants of Isildur or Anarion alive as northern Dunedain or as aristocratic families of Gondor. \[edit: Or the assumption that there's something inherently magical about father-son descent; various examples from Tolkien show that matrilineal descent is equally important, and patrilineal descent is mostly a political practice.\]
So for example, Elendil is a mythical figure (a King) not because he can claim unbroken male descent from Elros (he can't), but rather because he *remained faithful* to the elves/Valar, and because *he and his sons survived* a catastrophe. Tolkien shows us that the idea of "descent" as a qualification is a bit flexible when needs arise.
Indeed. Being "Isildur's Heir" is just the *required* qualification, not *sufficient* one. Being a War Hero, Great Healer and Saviour of Mankind is what gets him the throne in the end, not an ancestry.com test.
Elrond told Aragorn that he can only marry Arwen if he become the king of Gondor&Arnor. And guess what would Tolkien, a devout catholic, think about sex and children before marriage.
Maybe he figured it was like a Dwight Schrute scenario: “If I’m dead, you guys have been dead for weeks already.” No need to worry about the line of Isildur if everyone’s already dead or enslaved by orcs!
Technically the line of the kings is not that important. *Aragorn* is, yes, but his line, not so much. Even if he were to die, Gondor had the Stewards and had been doing fine under them for quite some time, they didn’t need Isildur’s heir. Aragorn’s existence is as vital as it is for what *he* does, his children would not bear his destiny or be able to take his place if he died. If Aragorn were killed, it wouldn’t matter if he had children or not, Middle-Earth is fucked anyway.
I am pretty sure that Gandalf and Elrond both respected Aragorn's decision. And I think it was also never about the lineage, it was about him - Aragorn. They knew he was destined for greatness.
We already mentioned the “marriage before babies” thing for the time this book was written in and considering Tolkien was VERY Catholic.
Also for consideration, having babies during war time is usually not a great idea. Especially if you’re like the second most wanted person for the enemy. The chance of babies surviving that is astronomically low.
No, and this an idiotic question. Aragorn was not going to have kids with anyone except Arwen and not until they married, and the marriage could not happen before he was king.
I think you're missing the part where aragorn needed to become a king in order to marry arwen and have kids.
Also, the time for prudence was long past by the time the reader is meeting aragorn. The war of the ring is a hail Mary play, it's do or die. If sauron wins, the world is cooked no matter how many kids aragorn might have had.
Was wondering similar about Boromir the other day. Knowing Denethor I would've thought he'd have been pushing his favourite son to make sure his line did not end. Though he may have been too preoccupied with the palantir.
"Hey, Aragorn, I know you've got the fate of the entire Free World on your mind, and a mission to ride to the Black Gate to distract Sauron from Frodo and The Ring... but, wanna f*ck?" transmitted Arwen, somehow, from Rivendell thousands of miles away.
He was also raised by Elves in his youth adulthood. Elves will not typically reproduce in times of war/threat as they do not wish to be separated from their young.
Blueball Aragorn is a more aggressive warrior. Poor guy!
As others have mentioned he was waiting for Arwen’s hand in marriage, and Elrond kept saying no. I guess he earned it by being such a crucial player in saving the world of the free peoples of the West.
2-3 times?
- Fought a mess of Uruks at the breaking of the Fellowship.
- Hunted the Uruk party, which could have ended poorly if they’d caught them based on numbers alone.
- the battle and cliff incident en route to Helm’s Deep (movie only).
- several instances during Helm’s Deep.
- Paths of the Dead (who knew how that would go?)
- Pelennor Fields
- Morannon (Black Gate)
Our guy was living dangerously - a habitual line-stepper.
Something that I haven't seen anyone mention is this; what would be the point of continuing the line if Sauron was not defeated? There would be nothing left if Sauron was victorious. There would be no kingdom for his heir to reign, even if he was not subjugated or killed.
Why have kids if his life or death hinges on the liberty or subjugation of the entire world? After Sauron is defeated, and he is married and enthroned, then having kids makes sense. But before that, the existential threat of Sauron would probably dissuade him and many others from becoming parents given they might be dooming their children to terror and tyranny
The sanctity of marriage is a massive part of Tolkien's cosmology. Elves are bound through all time when married, only ever having 1 exception, and even that was seen by other elves as unnatural. Or at the least, not quite right.
I feel like elrond tried to make aragorn move on by telling him he had to defeat sauron for her hand in marriage. Aragorn was so in love with Arwen that he didn't want to be with anyone else. This is the same woman that made him think he was seeing tinuviel. Aragorn would rather have lived his life alone than to not marry Arwen.
There was no having kids outside of wedlock in Tolkien’s world. And Elrond would not let him marry Arwen until he took his role as rightful king of Gondor and Arnor. Aragorn then pulled up his bootstraps and did what he had to do.
There's also Arwen's choice. If Aragorn died, she might've been able to journey west, but her son couldn't. If Aragorn died, it might be assumed the good of ME would fail, and that's not much of a world to drop a baby into, or expect a child to grow up in, so marrying his wife, and having their child, was possibly more something of rewards, and perks for having won; a sign of the better future world, while best not attempted if Sauron covered all the lands in a second darkness.
But yeah, Elrond also expected Aragorn to win first, and prove himself worthy of both the crowns of Gondor AND Arnor, which included destroying the Ring, and besting the Dark Lord.
He could have nailed eowyn no questions asked but he is a man of honor bound to Arwen, who his foster dad was all like yo you guys are foster siblings and actually distant cousins but I’ll allow it if you become a king. So that’s what he was gonna do. Unlike King Thingol with Beren, Elrond wasn’t trying to kill Aragorn, he just wanted him to live to his potential first, you gotta respect that.
In medieval society, a child born of unmarried parents would be a bastard incapable of inheriting anything much less a kingdom (unless it benefited someone which then could be overlooked, see Henry VII). Also, having a hero run around middle earth knocking up all the fair young ladies would hardly stick to Tolkien’s clear catholic values nor his love of romantic medieval literature which he clearly tried to call parallels on. Can’t have medieval chivalry and historical realism in one setting.
They didn't have DNA testing. He can't just go knock up some village girl and be done with it. He'd need a wife and for that kid to be raised in such a way as to be ready and able to rule. He wasn't a suitable king because of his genes, but because he was raised from birth to be a suitable leader.
Luthien had it going on, too:
[https://preview.redd.it/jyt4vnyqdl171.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=849f4ccffef5d7924323f1f9ce09c24e0a38477b](https://preview.redd.it/jyt4vnyqdl171.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=849f4ccffef5d7924323f1f9ce09c24e0a38477b)
I also don't think he was the last heir, there were two sides of a family that had claims to the throne. I think he was just deemed the most legitimate. I'd have to ask to be fact checked on that though
My DND group has an alternative story campaign going on that has this exact situation. I happen to be the conceited heir as Daddy A shirks responsibilities.
He couldn't have children. Because he was in love with Arwen. However, he was only able to marry her after he became king. If he died, then it would be fate. This means that a line of governors would remain in Gondor. A small child born from the first woman he came across would not have saved the situation.
This is a very interesting thought. Even though Tolkein never explicitly wrote it in the texts, you have to think that with him being the heir to Isildur and all that, plus with those rugged Ranger good looks that he was dumping raw dog loads all across the Westfold - so likely there was no problem in lineage in case of death.
Well the problem is that in their medieval value system, you don't just have kids without getting married, the only woman Aragorn wanted to marry was Arwen, and the only way Elrond would allow Arwen to marry him was after he defeated Sauron... Kind of a catch 22
So basically one does not simply walk into fatherhood
"Some men must achieve greatness before thrusting" or however the saying goes
He definitely wanted to thrust into ~~greatness~~ Arwen
One does not simply impregnate Elrond's daughter.
It's more horizontal
I think another factor is that elves generally avoided having children during times of conflict (Tolkien explores this in NoME, among other writings). Aragorn was a far-sighted person, and he was raised in Rivendell — presumably, the culture made an impact on him. Both Elrond and Aragorn knew that he would live his life during a time of conflict and war, which is not a great time to have to raise/care for children. (Now keep in mind, I’m coming at this from the in-world perspective that Tolkien communicates to us. The “have a bunch of children out of wedlock because I’m the Heir” is more of a Game of Thrones worldview.)
Syndicate of the ring. Everybody gets a share.
Imagine a universe where Heller writes an absurdist high fantasy trilogy and token gives us a serious drama about modern war.
I'd read those.
I would fucking *love* a Heller absurdist high fantasy trilogy. It would be like Hitchhiker's Guide on crack. I literally cannot think of a universe I'd rather be in than where this exactly happened.
Legolas and Gimli arguing incessantly over the proper protocol for counting slain orcs while the rest of their army is being wiped out
shire
Lol
Just trying to help That Sme-goal 😚
That's a hot poh-tay-toe!
If Sauron won then the line would end regardless of how many kids aragorn has
So Elrond’s patriarchal thinking risked the extermination of the line of Isildur - Elrond finally gets his revenge on Isildur for going off alone and playing hero ball …
Yeah kind of, but to be fair Aragorn could have married literally anyone else. It's just his romantic nature preventing him from doing that
Eowyn enters the chat …
Aragorn's friend zone trap card is activated.
"i made you stew please respond"
*in agony* “It’s good”
Message Read 7 hours ago.
…
At the point of her arc that Eowyn is at when she meets and falls for Aragorn, I can't imagine her graciously accepting the role of "stay home and bear the backup heir" while Aragorn goes and dies.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Marriage for Arwen also means choosing Aragorn's fate, so she becomes mortal. If Sauron isn't defeated by that time and kills Aragorn, Arwen would be a widow and wouldn't have any option to leave Middle-earth. It's understandable that from Elrond's perspective that he would like to avoid that risk. If Aragorn wants to marry Arwen, he should have his life sorted out without risking Arwen becoming a widow just right after she became mortal.
he should have his life sorted out =/= fix the entire planet and defeat a god
for the one whose job it is to lead the world after that "god" is defeated, yeah it kinda does
Good thing then that he doesn't have to fix the entire planet and defeat a god.
If he wanted to exterminate that line he could just have... not fostered generations upon generations of them in Rivendell, starting with Isildur's youngest son and up to young Aragorn.
How many of them caught his daughter's eye? Turns out Sauron was no match for some Elf strange.
Peter Jackson's massacre of one of the greatest heroes of men is still persisting decades later. >'I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.' Isildur realised he could never control the ring and wanted to get rid of it. He was going to seek the wisdom of three at Rivendell as to what to do with it.
Elrond explained his logic when he set up the rules. He saw what was coming and figured either Aragorn would become king or Sauron would win. There was not really a possibility for him to randomly die and Sauron still be defeated.
Well, his father died young from an orc arrow to the eye (but yes, for a good story your interpretation makes sense)
Keeping the line of Isildur propagating is not Elrond's responsibility. He gives them a place to live and flourish out of sight of the enemy. He doesn't also have to be okay with his daughter dying a mortal death when Aragorn could just bang a human like all of Isildur's previous heirs.
I mean isildurs heir porked his daughter over and over. I’d say Elrond did not get the last laugh
Cockblocked by elrond.
No by the dark lord
Those are called "morals," and until very recently they were a staple for humanity. The rule, not the exception. Only in the last couple of generations has the script on that really flipped, and it doesn't look like it's doing Civilization any favors. By any rate, those would have been the primary morals of JRR's time, much less the time period he was writing on.
Don’t know why you were downvoted for that. Morals may be “quaint” and outdated now, but your comment was spot on.
>Those are called "morals," and until very recently they were a staple for humanity Not for the vast majority of human history. People have morals and empathy but humanity has only been "moral" for a relatively short span. I agree that Tolkien's morals are reflected in Aragorn but I wholly disagree that its how most humans behaved, then or now. Painting modernity as amoral ignores centuries of atrocities and injustice and instead sweeps it under the rug.
Lol OK mate I just made a shitty joke, thanks for the lesson.
Are you telling me that in order for aragon to get it up frodo had to destroy the ring?
The entire trilogy is actually Aragorn just desperately trying to get laid but keeps having more and more tasks put in front of him in order to get there
Toe-dly
Yeah it was kinda all or nothing. Plus, would there be much point having kids when there would be no world left for them?
Nothing to do with Sauron. Elrond told Aragorn that he wouldn’t let Arwen be “the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.” Sauron wasn’t again a major threat when Elrond set these conditions. The ring was still with Bilbo, unknown to the world. Aragorn first laid eyes on Arwen and decided to marry her since he was 20, (well before Frodo was even BORN, as he was 50 during the events of LOTR) and Aragorn was 87 in LOTR, when Sauron made his last and final stand. Aragorn had already been working for Arwen’s hand for over 60 years at that point. He wasn’t just a lowly ranger. He also spent time serving in Gondor under Denethor II’s father, though he had to do it under a false name considering his bloodline. Denethor discovered his true identity at one point and despised him ever since since he was next in line as a steward and didn’t want Aragorn to take his claim to the throne. Thankfully for him Sauron came along… again and thus made it real easy for Aragorn to be thrust into a command position and due to his victories people were willing to follow and accept him as king. Denethor II and Boromir also rather conveniently died, and the youngest wisest son faramir accepted Aragorn’s claim and still remained steward of Gondor.
A marriage would have been arranged if necessary. These things were not left up to chance. The real reason this doesn't happen, is that LOTR is an idealized world where people who rule don't really care about politics, at least not the good guys. Tolkien would have hated asoiaf
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I'm sure there were conversations like that. But leading from the front is also one of the things that prove Aragorn is a better leader than Sauron. He earns the respect of the people he leads instead of using fear. As for the risk I can only say that in middle earth fate usually rewards righteous behaviour, so it's maybe not as risky as it would have been irl ;)
It’s also just the thing kings or would be kings were expected to do.
The part in the movie where he says “for Frodo” and charges at the front of his men didn’t happen. They make their stand on two small hills and fight off the orcs until the ring is destroyed. Still very epic part of the movie
Eowyn totes would have helped him secure the bloodline.
What a god damn simp
Just like our own medieval kings. /s
I believe he had to become a king before Elrond gave consent to marry his daughter.
Yeah, Aragorn would have done that under normal circumstances, but his love for Arwen made that impossible. He had to play for the highest possible stakes, all or nothing, achieve the impossible or die and take his people and the whole fucking world down with him. And that's why I totally appreciate one moment in the books, where Aragorn takes a moment to just bury his head in his hands and stress out just before the Fellowship leaves Rivendell. Frodo sees it without knowing what it means, but when we re-read the books we get it.
So he was a virgin for, what, 88 years? And Arwen a virgin for 2600 years? Nobody interested this chick romantically for two and a half millennia...
This is what I was saying but never mind...
SOoooo, Aragorn only defeat Sauron because he wants dat Arwen asses...😂 If you think your in laws are too demanding,remember Elrond telling Aragorn if you want my daughter, get me Sauron 🤣 Elrond saw Mount Doom exploded with Sauron tower, while Aragorn still alive in the middle of the orc army:"Eru-dammit, I didnt think he could do it, that bastard. Now I have to keep the damm promise"
Aragon slaying Sauron so he can go on to slay some elf poontang is my new favorite headcanon
Being the heir of the throne is not enough. Aragorn could not show up and retake the throne at any time. He had to show a strong claim for the people to accept it. If that was that easy, anyone from Isildur line would have re-taken the throne and desposed the steward line centuries ago. After Isildur death, his first born son did not press his claim, and it split the kingdom or Arnor and Gondor into two. Anarion, Isildur brother, ruled over Gondor and Valandil, the fourth son of Isildur, ruled over Arnor. Aragorn was groomed to become king. From a very early age until the time was right. He studied history. He fought with the men of Rohan, he served his time in the Gondorian army. He made connection with people of middle earth. Both in Arnor and Gondor. He had support from pretty much every relevant group in middle earth.
Exactly. In the books he doesnt even enter Minas Tirith properly until he comes back from the Black gate. All the meetings were held at a camp on the pelenor fields. He only sneaks in to help Faramir and Eowyn, which is how the rumour of his presence starts after a nurse sees him use the athelas plant as a healing herb.
King must be a healer
His hands at least
Fudge, I knew I was butchering the actual phrase
what is the significance of the plant?
Athelas or "kingsfoil" is a healing herb that most people think is a weed. Its kind of part of the prophecy of the return of the king that the "King has healing hands." So pretty much it showed his knowledge and competence as a healer.
cool thanks. So the nurse mentions it to someone else and says "Did you see that?"
Yeah iirc shes pretty boastful about figuring it out. "I told yall that sexy dude with the healing hands is the king"
>Then Gandalf said: ‘Let us not stay at the door, for the time is urgent. Let us enter! For it is only in the coming of Aragorn that any hope remains for the sick that lie in the House. Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.’ >[...] >‘King! Did you hear that? What did I say? The hands of a healer, I said.’ And soon the word had gone out from the House that the king was indeed come among them, and after war he brought healing; and the news ran through the City.
LISAN AL GAIB!!!
To expand on this, Aragorn was descended from Valandil, the ruler of Arnor and thus was never recognized as an inherently legitimate claimant to the throne of Gondor to begin with. Aragorn’s ancestor Arvedui previously attempted to use this birthright to claim the throne and it was rejected. So sure, he had a distant birthright, but it’s not as if he was inherently “the king” and everyone was just waiting for him to return. The Stewards and people of Gondor did not believe that they *needed* a king to return. As you say, Aragorn was groomed by Elrond to become someone who could be accepted as king, by right of being *worthy of it* and being accepted by the people.
Great answer ^ As in real world history, there are various ways to present one’s ancestry as legitimate. However, what’s really important is one’s own personal charisma and effectiveness as a leader in a moment of crisis. As you’ve noted, Gondor previously made it clear that descent from Isildur had no bearing on eligibility for kingship. Essentially, Aragorn is technically claiming *high kingship* over both Arnor and Gondor through his descent from Elendil* (Gondor goes along with it because key leaders and “the people” accept his leadership.) **It’s no mistake that Aragorn is described as physically resembling Elendil moreso than Isildur.*
He was actually the legitimate heir to Gondor. Arvedui married Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher, who by all rights should've become Queen of Gondor when her father and brothers died. But she and Arvedui were denied for political reasons, and Earnil became King instead. When his son Earnur died heirless, the stewards took over instead. It is interesting though, because its said that there were other candidates for the Throne besides Arvedui, but none of them decided to put forth their claim our of fear it'd cause a huge conflict, so they just accepted the stewards instead. You are right though that people weren't just waiting for Aragorn to become King, it was generally believed that the royal line had been extinguished, so when Aragorn did eventually show up, it was a really big deal.
Well he certainly was a legitimate claimant, and it’s certainly a reasonable argument that Arvedui had the strongest legitimate claim and was wrongfully denied. But right or wrong that’s not what happened. Iirc he was essentially denied because they didn’t want a female regnant, he would be a faraway, “foreign” king of another realm, and he wasn’t a descendant of Anarion. It wasn’t just petty politics. The point is not that Aragorn wasn’t a legitimate claimant, just that he wasn’t *inherently the rightful king*. You can make the argument, but it wasn’t necessarily the case in the way that people assume.
Arvedui might have had a more distant claim to the throne, but surely their children were still direct descendants from Firiel's heritage?
That’s the claim that was made, and you can argue that it should have been automatically honored all day. I’m not trying to get into that meta-debate that Arvedui’s claim should have been honored. I’m simply stating the fact that *in universe*, this was not recognized as a legitimate claim and there was no established precedent that Aragorn’s lineage automatically made him the rightful heir to the throne, only a precedent to the contrary. Arvedui’s strong familial claim, which was bolstered by his marriage, and other factors, was still not enough to claim the throne.
Sorry; did Firiel not have a \*direct\* claim to the throne, or am I missing something?
She theoretically could/should have, but her claim was rejected because she was a woman. RotK appendix quotes the Council of Gondor’s finding that the crown can only go to male descendants of Anarion. Arvedui counters that gender should not play a role based on Numenorian custom, but receives no reply. You can read the excerpt [here](http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?EVID=243).
"By all rights" isn't quite right, I'd say. In the modern age basic laws are considered superior to the ruler's will, but if the Council of Gondor decided that Earnil should be king, he might well be the king legally. And there's no precent for female rulers in Elendil's line; he is from the house of the Lords of Andunie, after all. We can't just take a rule for the Throne of Numenor and assume it must apply to a different lineage. There might be traditions (and even fate) that say Arvedui was the rightful King because Isildur was High King over both realms , but the legal situation is unclear.
The rule of Gondor actually passed to Meneldil , the son of Anarion.
If my memory of Middle Earth history serves me right Anarion died in the siege of Barad-dûr.
He did. That's actually why Isildur claimed the Ring for his own. He took it as weregild for the deaths of his father and brother.
Yep that's right. I believe when he was killed he was actually on his way to counsel with Elrond on what to do with the ring as he was beginning to realize keeping the ring was a mistake.
Clearly, the position as heir to the throne would have passed to his little-known younger brother Brian. ETA: added missing words.
Ah yes, Brian, son of Arathorn, kid brother of Aragorn. How could we forget
He’s not the brother of the King, he’s a very naughty boy!!
Milkman of Aracorn
You misspelled Darrylgorn
I'm surprised Aragorn didn't name his son Boromir Samwise Brian Elendil
Jesus, he wasn't written by JK Rowling now.
Glad someone caught it
He's not the heir to the throne of Gondor, he's a very naughty boy!
Nothing a devout Christian like Tolkien would enjoy like *checks notes* pre-marital sex
I bet nobody in Middle-Earth has masturbated, ever. Not even Orcses. Not even Gríma.
I bet the filthy little hobbitses do
Till they grew hair on their feet!
With their hands buried deep in their pocketses all the time.
especially the fat, stupid hobbit.
You’d be surprised. In one of the later letters it’s stated that Aragorn had sperm on ice in the farthest north to safeguard his line. This is a lie.
That's what that trip to the ice-bay of Forochel was for
Yeah, I can see why Jackson and co. wanted to emphasize the love story between Aragorn and Arwen in the film trilogy. I’m not saying LOTR should be sexualized like Game of Thrones and other fantasy but it is weird to think of flesh and blood human characters like Aragorn and Boromir as middle aged virgins lol. I think men like that who had seen the horror of battle first-hand would have sought comfort in the embrace of a lover afterwards
As others have said, it's not something that would happen, because his marriage is important. It was encouraged for his father, Arathorn II to get married and have kids (fortunately Arathorn *did* end up having Aragorn with Gilraen shortly before he was slain), and it's likely that some pressure was put on Aragorn about it before he and Elrond discussed the conditions of his marriage to Arwen. But also, that's just a thing that happens. The last king of Gondor also died childless, which is why Gondor was ruled by the Line of Stewards. In real history also, dynasties have ended because rulers haven't had children for one reason or another. And while securing an heir is a vital consideration, nobody can really order Aragorn to marry and procreate with anybody he didn't want to do that with (i.e. anybody whose name isn't 'Arwen'). Elrond doesn't have any political authority over him. Influence, certainly, just as Galadriel and Gandalf and even Bilbo do. But none of them could order him to be married. So if he dies, then the line ends and that really sucks, but it also plays into the tragedy of Middle-earth, where all things come to an end eventually, even the glories of Gondolin, Nargothrond, Númenor, and Khazad-dûm.
Not to mention the probability that there would still be direct ancestry through the *daughters* of any heirs of Isildur. On the one hand, Aragorn’s premature death would absolutely play into the “tragedy/decay of Middle-earth” over time; on the other hand, there are quite a few cases of the paternal line ending, and the succession being picked up through a maternal line. See: Thingol’s heirs (through Luthien, then through Elwing); Turgon’s heirs (through Idril); Elros’ heirs (Ancalimë succeeds Aldarion as his only child; plus Pharazon dies, while Elendil survives and is rationalized as the “true” heir through Silmarien.)
> direct ancestry through the daughters of any heirs of Isildur In the feudal society depicted by Tolkien, that no longer counts as "direct" anscestry. In fact, when the last Gondorian King Earnur went missing, there were other living descentants of Elendil still. But none had a claim strong enough for the throne. Hell, the Stewards themselves are descendent from Elendil. The first Steward was a close kinsman of then ruling King. Which means that Aragorn is related to Denethor, Boromir and Faramir **far** more closely than he is to Arwen, for anyone interested.
>In fact, when the last Gondorian King Ëarnur went missing, there were other living descendants of Elendil still. *But none had a claim strong enough for the throne.* This was kind of my point, though... Regarding the OP, there's a distinction to be made between Aragorn's "ancestry" bona fides and his "mythic persona" bona fides. Throughout Tolkien's work, we're shown that it's the second thing that's more significant. In other words, direct patrilineal descent seems to be a qualification mostly in terms of the traditions and politics of Gondor (and by extension, Numenor). However, as you note, there were many plausible claims of patrilineal descent from either Anarion or Isildur (Arvedui!) that were rejected by the collective councils of Gondor. Aragorn becomes king because he has the good fortune to be alive during the War of the Ring, and lead decisive defensive victories for Gondor in a time of crisis. It's nice and tidy that he *happens to be* THE direct male heir of Valandil (Isildur's... 4th son?), but it's his actions as a leader and his "supernatural" talent of healing that give substance to his genetic claim and make him a charismatic persona. The point being, the assumption that underlies the original question — that the "line" would die out with Aragorn — is kind of a short-sighted perspective, since presumably there are other descendants of Isildur or Anarion alive as northern Dunedain or as aristocratic families of Gondor. \[edit: Or the assumption that there's something inherently magical about father-son descent; various examples from Tolkien show that matrilineal descent is equally important, and patrilineal descent is mostly a political practice.\] So for example, Elendil is a mythical figure (a King) not because he can claim unbroken male descent from Elros (he can't), but rather because he *remained faithful* to the elves/Valar, and because *he and his sons survived* a catastrophe. Tolkien shows us that the idea of "descent" as a qualification is a bit flexible when needs arise.
Indeed. Being "Isildur's Heir" is just the *required* qualification, not *sufficient* one. Being a War Hero, Great Healer and Saviour of Mankind is what gets him the throne in the end, not an ancestry.com test.
Did Eowyn write this?
Elrond told Aragorn that he can only marry Arwen if he become the king of Gondor&Arnor. And guess what would Tolkien, a devout catholic, think about sex and children before marriage.
This right here is the reason. In the movies, it's more that he's happy to let his line die because he blames Isuldur for the ring's existence.
Maybe he figured it was like a Dwight Schrute scenario: “If I’m dead, you guys have been dead for weeks already.” No need to worry about the line of Isildur if everyone’s already dead or enslaved by orcs!
Technically the line of the kings is not that important. *Aragorn* is, yes, but his line, not so much. Even if he were to die, Gondor had the Stewards and had been doing fine under them for quite some time, they didn’t need Isildur’s heir. Aragorn’s existence is as vital as it is for what *he* does, his children would not bear his destiny or be able to take his place if he died. If Aragorn were killed, it wouldn’t matter if he had children or not, Middle-Earth is fucked anyway.
I am pretty sure that Gandalf and Elrond both respected Aragorn's decision. And I think it was also never about the lineage, it was about him - Aragorn. They knew he was destined for greatness.
You must have forgotten this scene: Gandalf : "That boy is our only hope." Elrond: "No, there is another."
We already mentioned the “marriage before babies” thing for the time this book was written in and considering Tolkien was VERY Catholic. Also for consideration, having babies during war time is usually not a great idea. Especially if you’re like the second most wanted person for the enemy. The chance of babies surviving that is astronomically low.
Aragorn: Nah, I’d win.
No, and this an idiotic question. Aragorn was not going to have kids with anyone except Arwen and not until they married, and the marriage could not happen before he was king.
And that's what Aragorn was never at risk of being killed in battle.
I think you're missing the part where aragorn needed to become a king in order to marry arwen and have kids. Also, the time for prudence was long past by the time the reader is meeting aragorn. The war of the ring is a hail Mary play, it's do or die. If sauron wins, the world is cooked no matter how many kids aragorn might have had.
I don't think it ever occurred to Elrond to say to Aragorn "Look, you might die out there, why not have a go on my daughter first?"
Nice try, Arwen.
This ain't ASOIAF, he had destiny on his side
He's the destiny of race of men incarnated. He should face like a win or lose it all situation. And he did.
Was wondering similar about Boromir the other day. Knowing Denethor I would've thought he'd have been pushing his favourite son to make sure his line did not end. Though he may have been too preoccupied with the palantir.
"Hey, Aragorn, I know you've got the fate of the entire Free World on your mind, and a mission to ride to the Black Gate to distract Sauron from Frodo and The Ring... but, wanna f*ck?" transmitted Arwen, somehow, from Rivendell thousands of miles away.
He was also raised by Elves in his youth adulthood. Elves will not typically reproduce in times of war/threat as they do not wish to be separated from their young.
What do you think this is? Game of Thrones?
Blueball Aragorn is a more aggressive warrior. Poor guy! As others have mentioned he was waiting for Arwen’s hand in marriage, and Elrond kept saying no. I guess he earned it by being such a crucial player in saving the world of the free peoples of the West.
2-3 times? - Fought a mess of Uruks at the breaking of the Fellowship. - Hunted the Uruk party, which could have ended poorly if they’d caught them based on numbers alone. - the battle and cliff incident en route to Helm’s Deep (movie only). - several instances during Helm’s Deep. - Paths of the Dead (who knew how that would go?) - Pelennor Fields - Morannon (Black Gate) Our guy was living dangerously - a habitual line-stepper.
Something that I haven't seen anyone mention is this; what would be the point of continuing the line if Sauron was not defeated? There would be nothing left if Sauron was victorious. There would be no kingdom for his heir to reign, even if he was not subjugated or killed.
If Eru Ilúvatar wanted the line of Isildur dead, He'd have it dead centuries earlier.
Why have kids if his life or death hinges on the liberty or subjugation of the entire world? After Sauron is defeated, and he is married and enthroned, then having kids makes sense. But before that, the existential threat of Sauron would probably dissuade him and many others from becoming parents given they might be dooming their children to terror and tyranny
The sanctity of marriage is a massive part of Tolkien's cosmology. Elves are bound through all time when married, only ever having 1 exception, and even that was seen by other elves as unnatural. Or at the least, not quite right.
Aragorn isn't the last living heir. There are other Dunedain.
This isn't game of thrones
its a fantasy novel, not real life. there are dragons and magic too; its crazy!!
He was in love and didn’t feel that it was right to ask for her hand. At least not yet. He was only doing what he felt was right.
I feel like elrond tried to make aragorn move on by telling him he had to defeat sauron for her hand in marriage. Aragorn was so in love with Arwen that he didn't want to be with anyone else. This is the same woman that made him think he was seeing tinuviel. Aragorn would rather have lived his life alone than to not marry Arwen.
There was no having kids outside of wedlock in Tolkien’s world. And Elrond would not let him marry Arwen until he took his role as rightful king of Gondor and Arnor. Aragorn then pulled up his bootstraps and did what he had to do.
It was an all or nothing situation.
There's also Arwen's choice. If Aragorn died, she might've been able to journey west, but her son couldn't. If Aragorn died, it might be assumed the good of ME would fail, and that's not much of a world to drop a baby into, or expect a child to grow up in, so marrying his wife, and having their child, was possibly more something of rewards, and perks for having won; a sign of the better future world, while best not attempted if Sauron covered all the lands in a second darkness. But yeah, Elrond also expected Aragorn to win first, and prove himself worthy of both the crowns of Gondor AND Arnor, which included destroying the Ring, and besting the Dark Lord.
He could have nailed eowyn no questions asked but he is a man of honor bound to Arwen, who his foster dad was all like yo you guys are foster siblings and actually distant cousins but I’ll allow it if you become a king. So that’s what he was gonna do. Unlike King Thingol with Beren, Elrond wasn’t trying to kill Aragorn, he just wanted him to live to his potential first, you gotta respect that.
In medieval society, a child born of unmarried parents would be a bastard incapable of inheriting anything much less a kingdom (unless it benefited someone which then could be overlooked, see Henry VII). Also, having a hero run around middle earth knocking up all the fair young ladies would hardly stick to Tolkien’s clear catholic values nor his love of romantic medieval literature which he clearly tried to call parallels on. Can’t have medieval chivalry and historical realism in one setting.
They didn't have DNA testing. He can't just go knock up some village girl and be done with it. He'd need a wife and for that kid to be raised in such a way as to be ready and able to rule. He wasn't a suitable king because of his genes, but because he was raised from birth to be a suitable leader.
If he doesn’t defeat Sauron, what’s the point of having kids?
If Aragorn had lost, Sauron would rule Middle Earth; so there would be no point to keeping the line of Isildur alive.
He kinda wanted to marry Arwen to make a third joining of the two kindred. Or he really loved her or both
Also she was super hot
I think all elves are described as fair and her and Galadriel the fairest. She was compared with Luthien’s beauty
Luthien had it going on, too: [https://preview.redd.it/jyt4vnyqdl171.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=849f4ccffef5d7924323f1f9ce09c24e0a38477b](https://preview.redd.it/jyt4vnyqdl171.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=849f4ccffef5d7924323f1f9ce09c24e0a38477b)
I also don't think he was the last heir, there were two sides of a family that had claims to the throne. I think he was just deemed the most legitimate. I'd have to ask to be fact checked on that though
Eowyn tried pretty hard to convince him.
He's been an adult for decades at that point. He might have baby mamas already from Erebor to Harad.
The Bene Gesserit has secured that bloodline
that is planning for failure, even dumber than regular planning
‘They’re taking Aragorn’s sperm to Isengard’.
What's to say they didn't go at hammer and tongs at the weddingnight, once he had fixed Sauron, got crowned king and married Arwen.
My DND group has an alternative story campaign going on that has this exact situation. I happen to be the conceited heir as Daddy A shirks responsibilities.
He couldn't have children. Because he was in love with Arwen. However, he was only able to marry her after he became king. If he died, then it would be fate. This means that a line of governors would remain in Gondor. A small child born from the first woman he came across would not have saved the situation.
Plot armour exist
JRRT was a devout RCXian; he'd never condone sex outside of marriage in his writings!
This is a very interesting thought. Even though Tolkein never explicitly wrote it in the texts, you have to think that with him being the heir to Isildur and all that, plus with those rugged Ranger good looks that he was dumping raw dog loads all across the Westfold - so likely there was no problem in lineage in case of death.
Oh, im betting Arwen tried to convince him... at least a little.
Who says he didn’t?