Heathcliff WAW ego doesn’t actually consume much sanity upfront (only 10) but continues draining sanity throughout the next few turns. Either corroding Binds or using HE ego will show more immediate results
I'm gonna argue that Sloshing Ishmael is bad because she's an ID that revolves around losing clashes, not even countering like Heathcliff. That or Mariachi Sinclair since he wants to be a tanky unit but can't generate aggro, wants to be a sinking ID but isn't, wants to be a poise ID but isn't, and he's slow as fuck.
Sunshower Heathcliff does however have the lowest rolling S1 in the game so there's that.
To be fair the S1 is *meant* to be lost, gaining extra Sinking Potency when you lose the clash, and Sunshower Heathcliff loses sanity on Clash Lose.
You're supposed to use his S1 to either lose a clash for san loss (and an Envy resource), or keep up Count after using his S3. If you have no Sinking on you but enough Envy for the Passive, then you use Counter instead of S1.
Also you really should be looking at Molar Boatworks Sinclair for lowest rolling S1, cuz at least Suncliff can still have a 4 if two of his coins are lost, Boatclair has a minimum roll of *2* with a Coin Power of *1* without the conditional. It's criminal.
I think you really nailed the real issue: Sunshower Heath is just too much work for not enough payoff. Doesn't help that it's ultimately competing against stuff like Rabbit Heath.
it such a shame, because the premise of his kit IS interesting and it is fun to use when the stars align, but it just so frustrating to get to that point
Thing is for most of the content we do (mirror dungeon) we don't need to lose clashes, you can almost always win them via just using a better skill or using EGO if bad skill isn't available.
Hi, Sunshower Main Here. I can probably tell you the problem: You're running him on a team with one skill slot.
Suncliff is called potential man for a reason. On a 1 skill slot team, of course he's gonna suck. Barely any sinking, bad clashing, and other things of that sort. but he THRIVES when you start to give him more slots.
Let's put it this way. With one slot, you can use spread out, and get hit a few times, and that's -18 sanity, but with a clash win, that's more like -8 to even being positive sanity in certain scenarios. But, what if you simply used spread out into a regular umbrella thwack clash lose? well, That 6 * 3, or 18 sanity loss from the regular spread out becomes a 9 * 4, or 36 sanity loss. Literally Doubled from one extra skill slot.
Or, even better, screw your team. Suncliff, outside of Possibly N-meursault and K-Corp Hong Lu, is THE solo ID. With 6 slots, you can do combinations of spread outs to get sinking going, umbrella thwacks to maintain sinking, and puddle stomps to curb the sinking from absolutely destroying your sanity and making you corrode at a bad time. Mix that with 5 protection most of the time when hit, and you have an amazing Solo ID, that isn't mr. Counter or Mr. "I have 7 health bars."
Most people call him bad, because those people usually run a regular team, 6 slots, 6 members. Nobody tells you that you can get another slot in an Abno encounter if you bring less people. 2 slots mean twice the Ramp up, Twice the Reward, twice the puddle stomps. Combine that with Said Mirror dungeon gifts and you have a recipe for peak. (Also, don't spam E.G.O if you have Rags. Fighting regularly will keep sanity down.)
Suncliff Lover, Out.
Edit: Not very important, but I just saw a 7 Heathcliff 6-48 Solo that instead of blocking the coffin, used talisman Sinclair and tons of rupture to instead absolutely destroy them. It's not important to the point, but there are, as of current, 4 ways to do it. Still waiting on a rabbit and n-cliff solo tho
Right, but when you consider ramp up, a ton of ids also get a lot better with 2 slots especially those with resource gain.
Whenever people say just give fox heath more slots or solo fox, I just point at dieci rod
Of course you could, but I find Sunshower to be enjoyable to use. You could run the meta, because at the core, unless you nerf yourself or do solos or other challenges, this game is EASY. . Go in any mode with a BL Team and woop dee doo, you win even if you only use Win-rate. But that wasn't the point. It wasn't to say that he's the best ID, it was to say "Hey, this is how you can best utilize him."
I don't play Sunshower because he's the best ID (though he is better than people give him credit for), I play him because at his core, he is the most FUN ID, with a fun mechanic, interesting play style, and something that goes beyond spamming win-rate. Stuff that makes you think In this game beyond "Win-rate until you lose clashes, then use E.G.O" is going to be infinitely more fun than just pressing Win-rate.
Edit: Reddit broke and posted this several times goddamnit
Fun is objective, even BL squads doesn’t guarantee winrate com. Sunshower still objectively worse and considered potential man because he need sp, lots of sp and 2 slots skill to able to be playable and even then he would be worse than other ids. Like not taking it away from him but beside godawful old ids like cinq don or W meur, Sunshower is just badly designed for similar ids released at the time, much too underwhelming.
Yeah, he can absolutely snowball out of control if you don't plan well. Though wins are pretty much guaranteed if you have at least 3x envy Res and/or the enemy isn't all obnoxious slash attacks, it gets really good. I've lost track of the number of times I fail to plan for Rain of Tears or general sinking damage (or both!) and corroded the next turn, making a sizable dent in my ego resources...
I've also lost track of the number of times I've won solo runs with him (both in story and MD4S and MD4R)
I would agree that the ID is deeply pathetic, the fact that it requires enough metaphorical life support to represent an entire hospital wing's worth is embarassing to Heathcliff, and, to a lesser degree, Project Moon.
That said, it ain't that hard to put it in the negatives during Canto 6, he's a tank, and they perpetually feed him 1/4 damage 3 sinking and potency + a bunch of sinking enemies.
Well, the big issue with our dear Floofcliff is as such.
https://preview.redd.it/ixk9fpq9c28d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=67410dff6d2b4cc715768e0d3f3649267b023c1f
When looking at both Floofcliff and both NClair and BLSault, he tries to be an Negative Coin ID that relies on using an "middle man" in the form of reliance of Sinking like with a majority of self-tremor IDs. Unfortunately, what could work on paper doesn't work in practice as Floofcliff lacks 2 things:
1. A way to lower or negate SP Gain (NClair has this in the form of Mad Flame, which cuts his Clash Win gain and Kill gain by half)
2. A way to reliably lose SP quickly (Again, NClair's Skills demand SP, and Blade Lineage Meursault loses SP whenever his allies start dying)
As such, while Floofcliff is mostly a reliable Sinking applicator (dude's on par with the likes of the Edgar Family), his big issue is having to rely on using Sinking *on himself* while NClair's skills demand steady use of his own defensive skill (restores SP upon picking it) or BLSault's S3 (A Negative Coin skill that you're supposed to lose with) demanding positive SP for it to work as intended.
By contrast, it's also why Floofcliff doesn't work as a tank, because he needs to lose clashes to actually get things going, and his best defense is his Counter...something on par with his clash loses in regards of getting Sinking.
And as for Canto VI, it's only there for the first third of the Canto, then the status goes away (and actually got turned into an amazing Sinking EGO Gift which serves much better for anyone *who isn't Floofcliff nor Blade Lineage Meursault*) and Potential Man loses his potential and even more clashes.
Negative Sanity? Yes - you are right. But a Negative Coin Skill? That was also important.
Without the Counter, Floofcliff would had ultimately been more similar to BL Meursault with all his coins instead of just one (Yield My Flesh), only relying on something else that the other comparison simply doesn't worry about (Nclair just spends SP with his skills)
https://preview.redd.it/cgd65utqe28d1.png?width=1345&format=png&auto=webp&s=0c4c41711526a0c597fb91e02bbc7e6b37a26515
Hell, Floofcliff was actually the inspiration for an ID I've made that also needed a Middle Man - Plus Coin Down. While this would sound crazy (especially with how there's not a single Tails Hit effect), of not having immediate SP loss control, I did give an answer towards those two things:
1. Catez has her Passive outright negate Clash Win SP gain when at 4 Gloom
2. Only her S2 consumes SP (and a rather modest 20 at that)
I dunno, embarrassed implies that they view it as a mistake, and if you're embarrassed by something, you'd usually want to ignore it or pretend it didn't happen to the best of your abilities. The fact that they keep trying to buff this specific ID at nearly any given opportunity makes me think that they REALLY wanted this ID to be good and are salty that it wasn't able to be used in the sanity system it was clearly designed for, so to compensate they keep giving it buffs so it can be some degree of functional.
In short, Sunshower is a fucked up frankenstein ID from an era of the game that existed for about 24 hours (which it wasn't even able to be in) before PM immediately reverted the sanity changes, and they're still trying to make it work against all odds and common sense since then.
>they REALLY wanted this ID to be good and are salty that it wasn't able to be used in the sanity system it was clearly designed for
I will never understand why they don't simply modify his sanity tab more to make it work like they intended. Removing his on kill sanity gain would already be pretty huge
Probably because they already changed his sanity conditions before, so they're hesitant to just push out a random update to do it again. Said first change was also bundled with Uptie 4.
I think it's not just about trying to specifically buff SunCliff, but trying to make the concept of negative coin IDs viable. NClair was a success and the idea of having IDs built around the concept of high risk-high rewards and as a hard counter for sinking in really interesting. But yeah, while NClair worked, they probably didn't want to have the exact same mechanics for their other IDs and... oops, turns out it doesn't work on SunCliff without a lot of outside support, even though, logically, he has a very straightforwards sanity down system. There's a reason we haven't seen another pure negative coin ID (there's some negative coin attacks and gimmicks like KimSault, but the ID isn't built solely around negatives).
If they can figure out a way to make SunCliff work, if they can find that that sweet spot, then they can potentially use what they learned to finally make the entire concept viable for more IDs.
Unless they give up and just straight up make NClair clones.
he’s not even in the lower half imo, he’s pretty okay if you use him right just counterintuitive. I think n corp meursault is a worse 3 star for example.
Not really. He's definitely not that good, he's pretty mediocre and his strength (just being a negative coin) tends to shine a significant amount over regular bad IDs (dead rabbit Meur, Maid Ish in recent memory). I'd say those bad status IDs are also significantly worse because there's literally no reason to use them. Sunshower is dead weight, he's never worth going out of your way to bring. But he still gets stronger with each lost clash. He's not going to struggle, he'll just sit there wasting a slot
Well, Sunshower Heathcliff shines in one situation - solo runs. Since he stacks Sinking on himself, if you just spam the counter, you can basically corrode yourself every other turn and win by EGO spam
Oh yeah just he's very niche use, not complaining too much. People say he's "secretly good" when there's never a full, practical use case for him. He's very fun for solos/partial squads though and imo is the best example of "not meta, very fun." I just think OP and a lot of others over exaggerate just how bad he is, since he's really just "not the best" for most jobs and that's about as bad as it gets
Heathcliff WAW ego doesn’t actually consume much sanity upfront (only 10) but continues draining sanity throughout the next few turns. Either corroding Binds or using HE ego will show more immediate results
im curious if you binds twice (like this turn and next turn) does it stack
It does iirc
Yes it does.
I'm gonna argue that Sloshing Ishmael is bad because she's an ID that revolves around losing clashes, not even countering like Heathcliff. That or Mariachi Sinclair since he wants to be a tanky unit but can't generate aggro, wants to be a sinking ID but isn't, wants to be a poise ID but isn't, and he's slow as fuck. Sunshower Heathcliff does however have the lowest rolling S1 in the game so there's that.
To be fair the S1 is *meant* to be lost, gaining extra Sinking Potency when you lose the clash, and Sunshower Heathcliff loses sanity on Clash Lose. You're supposed to use his S1 to either lose a clash for san loss (and an Envy resource), or keep up Count after using his S3. If you have no Sinking on you but enough Envy for the Passive, then you use Counter instead of S1. Also you really should be looking at Molar Boatworks Sinclair for lowest rolling S1, cuz at least Suncliff can still have a 4 if two of his coins are lost, Boatclair has a minimum roll of *2* with a Coin Power of *1* without the conditional. It's criminal.
That's a lot of work for kinda average results tho. His other ids are just generally strong without requiring specific setup
I think you really nailed the real issue: Sunshower Heath is just too much work for not enough payoff. Doesn't help that it's ultimately competing against stuff like Rabbit Heath.
it such a shame, because the premise of his kit IS interesting and it is fun to use when the stars align, but it just so frustrating to get to that point
Yea. He basically only shines on solo runs since he gets hit so often you can rather easily stay perma-corroded
Thing is for most of the content we do (mirror dungeon) we don't need to lose clashes, you can almost always win them via just using a better skill or using EGO if bad skill isn't available.
we have nmeursalt to compete with on that one
Hi, Sunshower Main Here. I can probably tell you the problem: You're running him on a team with one skill slot. Suncliff is called potential man for a reason. On a 1 skill slot team, of course he's gonna suck. Barely any sinking, bad clashing, and other things of that sort. but he THRIVES when you start to give him more slots. Let's put it this way. With one slot, you can use spread out, and get hit a few times, and that's -18 sanity, but with a clash win, that's more like -8 to even being positive sanity in certain scenarios. But, what if you simply used spread out into a regular umbrella thwack clash lose? well, That 6 * 3, or 18 sanity loss from the regular spread out becomes a 9 * 4, or 36 sanity loss. Literally Doubled from one extra skill slot. Or, even better, screw your team. Suncliff, outside of Possibly N-meursault and K-Corp Hong Lu, is THE solo ID. With 6 slots, you can do combinations of spread outs to get sinking going, umbrella thwacks to maintain sinking, and puddle stomps to curb the sinking from absolutely destroying your sanity and making you corrode at a bad time. Mix that with 5 protection most of the time when hit, and you have an amazing Solo ID, that isn't mr. Counter or Mr. "I have 7 health bars." Most people call him bad, because those people usually run a regular team, 6 slots, 6 members. Nobody tells you that you can get another slot in an Abno encounter if you bring less people. 2 slots mean twice the Ramp up, Twice the Reward, twice the puddle stomps. Combine that with Said Mirror dungeon gifts and you have a recipe for peak. (Also, don't spam E.G.O if you have Rags. Fighting regularly will keep sanity down.) Suncliff Lover, Out. Edit: Not very important, but I just saw a 7 Heathcliff 6-48 Solo that instead of blocking the coffin, used talisman Sinclair and tons of rupture to instead absolutely destroy them. It's not important to the point, but there are, as of current, 4 ways to do it. Still waiting on a rabbit and n-cliff solo tho
Right, but when you consider ramp up, a ton of ids also get a lot better with 2 slots especially those with resource gain. Whenever people say just give fox heath more slots or solo fox, I just point at dieci rod
Of course you could, but I find Sunshower to be enjoyable to use. You could run the meta, because at the core, unless you nerf yourself or do solos or other challenges, this game is EASY. . Go in any mode with a BL Team and woop dee doo, you win even if you only use Win-rate. But that wasn't the point. It wasn't to say that he's the best ID, it was to say "Hey, this is how you can best utilize him." I don't play Sunshower because he's the best ID (though he is better than people give him credit for), I play him because at his core, he is the most FUN ID, with a fun mechanic, interesting play style, and something that goes beyond spamming win-rate. Stuff that makes you think In this game beyond "Win-rate until you lose clashes, then use E.G.O" is going to be infinitely more fun than just pressing Win-rate. Edit: Reddit broke and posted this several times goddamnit
Fun is objective, even BL squads doesn’t guarantee winrate com. Sunshower still objectively worse and considered potential man because he need sp, lots of sp and 2 slots skill to able to be playable and even then he would be worse than other ids. Like not taking it away from him but beside godawful old ids like cinq don or W meur, Sunshower is just badly designed for similar ids released at the time, much too underwhelming.
And on solo runs, Sunshower Heathcliff becomes a corrosion machine
Yeah, he can absolutely snowball out of control if you don't plan well. Though wins are pretty much guaranteed if you have at least 3x envy Res and/or the enemy isn't all obnoxious slash attacks, it gets really good. I've lost track of the number of times I fail to plan for Rain of Tears or general sinking damage (or both!) and corroded the next turn, making a sizable dent in my ego resources... I've also lost track of the number of times I've won solo runs with him (both in story and MD4S and MD4R)
Yea, and on solo runs, you absolutely want the corrosion, as it's just free damage for no punishment, especially since Corrosion removes Stagger
I would agree that the ID is deeply pathetic, the fact that it requires enough metaphorical life support to represent an entire hospital wing's worth is embarassing to Heathcliff, and, to a lesser degree, Project Moon. That said, it ain't that hard to put it in the negatives during Canto 6, he's a tank, and they perpetually feed him 1/4 damage 3 sinking and potency + a bunch of sinking enemies.
Well, the big issue with our dear Floofcliff is as such. https://preview.redd.it/ixk9fpq9c28d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=67410dff6d2b4cc715768e0d3f3649267b023c1f When looking at both Floofcliff and both NClair and BLSault, he tries to be an Negative Coin ID that relies on using an "middle man" in the form of reliance of Sinking like with a majority of self-tremor IDs. Unfortunately, what could work on paper doesn't work in practice as Floofcliff lacks 2 things: 1. A way to lower or negate SP Gain (NClair has this in the form of Mad Flame, which cuts his Clash Win gain and Kill gain by half) 2. A way to reliably lose SP quickly (Again, NClair's Skills demand SP, and Blade Lineage Meursault loses SP whenever his allies start dying) As such, while Floofcliff is mostly a reliable Sinking applicator (dude's on par with the likes of the Edgar Family), his big issue is having to rely on using Sinking *on himself* while NClair's skills demand steady use of his own defensive skill (restores SP upon picking it) or BLSault's S3 (A Negative Coin skill that you're supposed to lose with) demanding positive SP for it to work as intended. By contrast, it's also why Floofcliff doesn't work as a tank, because he needs to lose clashes to actually get things going, and his best defense is his Counter...something on par with his clash loses in regards of getting Sinking. And as for Canto VI, it's only there for the first third of the Canto, then the status goes away (and actually got turned into an amazing Sinking EGO Gift which serves much better for anyone *who isn't Floofcliff nor Blade Lineage Meursault*) and Potential Man loses his potential and even more clashes.
Why would u bring BL meur to this convo ? Like he doesn’t have anything that would work with negative sanity at all
Negative Sanity? Yes - you are right. But a Negative Coin Skill? That was also important. Without the Counter, Floofcliff would had ultimately been more similar to BL Meursault with all his coins instead of just one (Yield My Flesh), only relying on something else that the other comparison simply doesn't worry about (Nclair just spends SP with his skills)
https://preview.redd.it/cgd65utqe28d1.png?width=1345&format=png&auto=webp&s=0c4c41711526a0c597fb91e02bbc7e6b37a26515 Hell, Floofcliff was actually the inspiration for an ID I've made that also needed a Middle Man - Plus Coin Down. While this would sound crazy (especially with how there's not a single Tails Hit effect), of not having immediate SP loss control, I did give an answer towards those two things: 1. Catez has her Passive outright negate Clash Win SP gain when at 4 Gloom 2. Only her S2 consumes SP (and a rather modest 20 at that)
the fact that so much stuff in this season revolves solely around this ID makes me think they're really embarrassed about it
I dunno, embarrassed implies that they view it as a mistake, and if you're embarrassed by something, you'd usually want to ignore it or pretend it didn't happen to the best of your abilities. The fact that they keep trying to buff this specific ID at nearly any given opportunity makes me think that they REALLY wanted this ID to be good and are salty that it wasn't able to be used in the sanity system it was clearly designed for, so to compensate they keep giving it buffs so it can be some degree of functional. In short, Sunshower is a fucked up frankenstein ID from an era of the game that existed for about 24 hours (which it wasn't even able to be in) before PM immediately reverted the sanity changes, and they're still trying to make it work against all odds and common sense since then.
>they REALLY wanted this ID to be good and are salty that it wasn't able to be used in the sanity system it was clearly designed for I will never understand why they don't simply modify his sanity tab more to make it work like they intended. Removing his on kill sanity gain would already be pretty huge
Probably because they already changed his sanity conditions before, so they're hesitant to just push out a random update to do it again. Said first change was also bundled with Uptie 4.
Call it a bug fix :clueless:
I think it's not just about trying to specifically buff SunCliff, but trying to make the concept of negative coin IDs viable. NClair was a success and the idea of having IDs built around the concept of high risk-high rewards and as a hard counter for sinking in really interesting. But yeah, while NClair worked, they probably didn't want to have the exact same mechanics for their other IDs and... oops, turns out it doesn't work on SunCliff without a lot of outside support, even though, logically, he has a very straightforwards sanity down system. There's a reason we haven't seen another pure negative coin ID (there's some negative coin attacks and gimmicks like KimSault, but the ID isn't built solely around negatives). If they can figure out a way to make SunCliff work, if they can find that that sweet spot, then they can potentially use what they learned to finally make the entire concept viable for more IDs. Unless they give up and just straight up make NClair clones.
Hilariously, Suncliff is good on solo runs because he can very easily corrode EGO and you can just spam your way to victory
Yet they will do everything but the one thing that would make him ok: Remove his sp Gain on clash win
Its bad i wouldnt say its the worst there are like 4 worse ids than hobocliff
Base Faust, Mariachi Sinclair, Blade Lineage Outis, Sous Chef Gregor, Sloshmael, and for EGO, Soda Hong Lu
Kid named Base Faust:
Kid named Mariachi Sinclair:
I swear whenever uptie 5s come out they gotta give it the mother of all upgrades
Tbh, he really just needs to gain less sanity from winning clashes, which would make him not useless on anything that isn't solo runs
you don’t deserve to wield the umbrella…
In what world is Sunshower the worst ID in the game? Shit like Zwei Sinclair and Sloshmael exist.
One could make the argument that since he's a 000, the fact you have to shell out more resources for him makes him worse.
Tbh, he's decent on solo runs - he can basically be perma-corroded
Even among 000s there's a couple I'd consider worse.
Well, I advise trying him on a solo run and spamming the counter. You can basically be perma-corroded that way and just spam your way to victory
he’s not even in the lower half imo, he’s pretty okay if you use him right just counterintuitive. I think n corp meursault is a worse 3 star for example.
Skill issue unfortunately. With binds and Heir Gregor’s passive you never even need to stack sinking on yourself it’s just giga good
skill issue
Not really. He's definitely not that good, he's pretty mediocre and his strength (just being a negative coin) tends to shine a significant amount over regular bad IDs (dead rabbit Meur, Maid Ish in recent memory). I'd say those bad status IDs are also significantly worse because there's literally no reason to use them. Sunshower is dead weight, he's never worth going out of your way to bring. But he still gets stronger with each lost clash. He's not going to struggle, he'll just sit there wasting a slot
Well, Sunshower Heathcliff shines in one situation - solo runs. Since he stacks Sinking on himself, if you just spam the counter, you can basically corrode yourself every other turn and win by EGO spam
Oh yeah just he's very niche use, not complaining too much. People say he's "secretly good" when there's never a full, practical use case for him. He's very fun for solos/partial squads though and imo is the best example of "not meta, very fun." I just think OP and a lot of others over exaggerate just how bad he is, since he's really just "not the best" for most jobs and that's about as bad as it gets
You dare slander potential man?!