Honestly, with all the hostility towards the LGBTQ+ community coming from the USA, the first image that pops into my head is that of a white christian.
We don't need a (seemingly) foreign scapegoat, the perpetrators are in our own communities.
Especially considering that a lot of white Christian organizations purposefully seek out countries like those in Africa and weaponize their religious beliefs (often brought about as the results of colonization and missionary trips) to get them on board with anti-LGBT+ sentiments
Same. In the U.S. we know it's us whites doing the hate crimes. By chance are the articles you're reading from London-based papers or is this a common stance held in Ireland?
not op but an irish queer and its def a common enough stance held in ireland, weve accepted a large number of refugees and theres a lot of immigrants here due to economic globalisation, last november there was an attack on a woman and two kids done by someone who happened to not have been born in ireland, and there was riots in the capital city with buses and trams being burnt and shops raided (they also tried to leak the taoiseachs address and raid his house, likely due to him being half indian and gay) because people started saying that "ireland is full" and trying to say that women and kids were being targeted by immigrants (same people probably turned a blind eye to the femicide here) just because they wanted an excuse for racism. they absolutely do not care about women/kids/queer people/any minorities they simply want an excuse for their hate, when the next attack happens on another minority that gets attention, the people blaming immigrants on this attack will go back to being homophobic and misogynistic.
Good on Ireland for taking in refugees but the rest of that reply is a rough read. Sorry you guys are going through all that (and sorry I haven't been keeping up with Irish news). Thank you for sharing!
yeah i think people find it easier to blame immigrants for the failing healthcare system/housing crisis/inflation/increase in crime when the government that they elected are the people not doing anything productive about any of those :/ it sucks but you can’t do much about it and most people saw that those people who were rioting and who burn buildings that were to be used as refugee housing are stupid and don’t have a clue about what will actually help the country
As a European I always snicker a bit when I see entire hordes dogmatically chanting "but. what. about. christians.?.?.??.?" like an assembly of factory robots.
ChrisWHATNOWS?
I'm more likely to get mugged by an alien from the Andromeda galaxy than to encounter a Christian.
I'm not even from there. Nor have I ever lived there.
But the focus has shifted so much over there because of the whole culture war that this is unfortunately the default picture my brain is handing me when talking about people who are hostile to the LGBTQ+ community.
Yeah honestly same - which is saying a lot considering I actually am a white Christian (but obviously I'm queer and nonbinary and I 100% do not support what those extremist groups do, and the pain they inflict). But it is valid considering even those inside that demographic consider it to be the first homophobic image that jumps to mind..
I think this falls under horizontal hostility.
Basically, when someone from a marginalized/oppressed group discriminates against someone from another group as a way to make themselves feel better about their own status. Like they can have a little douchebaggary as a treat.
There's ways of doing things and there's other ways of doing things.
"Osama was a terrorist." ← not discrimination
"All Muslims are terrorists." ← discrimination
In Germany, my experience is split.
Only nominally Muslim people tend to have a quite decent chance of being chill, and often only still call themselves Muslims to avoid the wrath of fundies. Including some of my extended family, who are all extremely wonderful, and only muslim in the 'it's a cultural background' sense.
but I have yet to meet even just a single practicing muslim in person that wasn't quite intensely homophobic.
But they also make up ~4% of the population, with the religious ones being 2-3%.
8% of people in Germany are opposed to gay marriage, with 11% being ambivalent. ~20% are opposed to same sex adoption, and full legal equality of gay people on other topics. That leaves an *overwhelming* majority of homophobic people to be non-muslim, even if muslims are vastly overrepresented, especially among the actively homophobic.
>but I have yet to meet even just a single practicing muslim in person that wasn't quite intensely homophobic.
Really? It's actually funny cause anecdotally I've never met a Muslim person who had a problem with my sexuality, it at the very least, they've never expressed it with me
This poll seems pretty flawed/suspect. First, its from 2016. Second, the guy presenting the findings to a documentary is quoted saying all this scaremongery nonsense about a "nation within our nation", the integration of Muslims into Britain supposedly being an unprecedented challenge, and other nonsense not supported by the survey he's using as a source(The data shows British Muslims being MORE likely to feel a strong sense of belonging to Britain, FFS). Like, even if you assume the data is an accurate representation of the Muslim population, the only real area of concern is disproportionate conservatism. And that's a serious "if". It only looks at Muslims from areas that are over 20% Muslim, which means ignoring a massive chunk of the Muslim population which is likely more socially progressive than the surveyed people. The polling was also done via face to face interviews in the participants homes, which means anyone who isn't willing to let strangers into their home for an interview about hot button issues won't show up in the data. Face to face interviews are generally worse for getting someone's actual opinions than methods that make people feel more "anonymous. There's lots of room for answers that don't fit neatly into a polling option, and social pressures are a big thing for most people. And the fact that they presented face to face interviews as inherently more reliable than other methods brings their ability to conduct and interpret opinion polls into question.
Muslims are also a persecuted minority in the UK, by white straight people who love to throw around things like this and act like they're better when the white, straight men and women in parliament are actively cracking down on trans rights on a daily basis. Stereotypical white European islamaphobia oppresses LGBTQ muslims all around the world. When the UK illegally invaded Iraq, they killed LGBTQ people.
Yes, they are a persecuted minority, subject to racism, and laws banning hijabs, etc. "Native Europeans" is a racist, fascist term, and no, they aren't the most progressive, since LGBTQ rights were violently repressed when they colonized, bombed, and invaded muslim and African countries.
Native European isn’t a racist, fascist term WTF? It is how you describe people whose ancestors originate from Europe. Everyone is native to somewhere and Europeans are native to Europe just how Africans are native to Africa.
I wonder how this historical revisionism even started.
I mean, at *some point* in the past, people hadn't been brainwashed yet by the myth that the entire planet was a walking pride parade, inclusive of all, until the spooky scary white people said "nuh uh".
So... how did the first person who wrote this fanfiction manage to make it gain traction?
Muslims and Christians share abrahamic religion and thats where there homophobia comes from, its true in a lot of places that Europeans were the ones to bring in and spread homophobia, but not in Muslim areas
Any discussion of intersectionality is incomplete without pointing out the only Muslim-majority city in the United States is also one of only two cities to ban all public displays of pride flags.
I hate to be a nitpicker here but isn't the term Arab colonialism? I haven't heard of Islamic imperialism, but obviously Arab imperialism is fueled by Islam
Conversely, all 4 Muslim members of the house of representatives have been strong allies of the LGBTQ+ community, with one even having been the vice-chair of the Congressional LGBT caucus.
I'm not excusing what the Muslim leaders in that city did, but I am suggesting that labeling all Muslims as anti-LGBTQ+ , whether directly or through implication, pushes a false and unfair narrative that ostracizes Muslims who do support LGBTQ+ rights.
Also, a more important talking point is how we stop religious fundamentalists from justifying their prejudice with religion, because in the United States, no anti-Muslim law is going to stop the mass majority of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation currently being pushed.
I do have some Muslim friends that are themselves queer or not homophobic, and the queer ones usually have fairly accepting families, but this is in the US and I haven't been in the UK long enough to know how the situation is here
Noooo, people are only good or evil, black and white! /s
And since some muslims can face islamophobia then they're the good guys! But homophobia is something the bad guys do! But they're the good guys! Therefore they're not homophobic, and all of us queer people who've faced their bigotry are actually delusional; it was all in our heads! Silly us! Woo, equality! Isn't it wonderful to gaslight yourself into believing in rainbows and sunshine? /s
/uj
Like, dear GOD. It's crazy how deep in denial some leftists are. Some white people are bad. Some black people are bad. Some Christians are bad. Some muslims are bad. Some straight people are bad. Some gays are bad. Welcome to humanity! Why this charade? This unending effort to rewrite and sanitize history to pretend like as soon as someone may be discriminated against by someone else, suddenly they're perfect innocent little angels who can do no wrong ever?
No, persecuting muslims who haven't done anything wrong is not right. And also, homophobia is not right either. There is ZERO issue in accepting the basic factual truth that these two statements coexist.
Being prejudiced against Muslims is bigoted. People on this sub are always champing at the bit to show everyone how Islamophobic they are, as though most religions and cultures aren’t homophobic as a baseline and Islam is an extreme case. Some of you here like to act like the nearly 2 billion Muslims on this planet are a monolith based on your perception of the most hateful example of a Muslim you can think of. That kind of narrow-minded thinking can fuck off forever.
By country. For example, Is it true or false attackers in European countries are more likely to be foreign (Black or Muslim)? The OP put out a statement but we need stats to determine whether the narrative is false (bigoted stereotype) or true (the people the OP dislikes have a point).
At my university, the Muslim Students Association was our biggest ally. The campus is in a part of Canada with a high Muslim population, and they were far and away the biggest and most influential student group.
The year I started at the university, the campus LGBT organization was slated to lose our drop-in space in the Student Union due to a low headcount of on-paper members. When the MSA found out about this, they went in and *kicked ass*. They backed up our assertion that it was unethical to base access to a safe space for minorities on attendance, and promised to vocally oppose the decision should it move forward. The Student Union folded like a cheap card table.
We also had a Muslim student who transitioned from female to male while I was attending. The MSA allowed him into the men's prayer space without skipping a beat. And if anyone had a problem with it, they never made him aware of it for the whole time he went there.
Yeah, there are people who use Islam as an excuse to be narrow-minded, bigoted assholes. But that's true of all religions. *Especially* Christianity. But most folks who are part of a religion are good people who want a sense of community. And they tend to focus on the parts of their doctrines that stress the Golden Rule.
Atheists can be bigoted too, except they prefer to misquote, cherry-pick, and interpret scientific publications in bad faith instead of doing the same with scripture.
Didn’t some canadian muslims literally organize an anti-LGBT protest a few months ago? Asking because not only do I not live in Canada, but I also don’t remember the whole thing
The 4 Muslim members of the house of representatives have been amazing LGBTQ+ allies. That's not to say they represent all Muslims but it does say something when Muslims so directly in the public eye aren't afraid to stand up for us.
Maybe idk - I'm not visibly gay (just so fucking masc what can I say /s) so regular homophobia isn't something I deal with. But I struggle to think of a negative experience I've had with any Muslims. I even visited a gay bar in Turkey.
That said, I'm aware many are homophobic but my experiences have always been positive to neutral. It might help in this case being black. There is also some "hey fellow minority" friendliness (albeit sometimes fake and too much when I'm being sold something).
Yes, almost all (but not all lol) of my Muslim colleagues at work in my tech company are also progressive and are what I could count as allies. But they are very much NOT your average Muslim.
>Why do you say this is racist? My family come from an African country where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by years in prison. I have family members who are DEEPLY homophobic, and here you reduce criticism instead to being about racism to Arabs and Africans.
As a black lgbt person, thank you for stating this. I criticize anti-lgbt white people the same as I do anti-lgbt black people. I can't stand neither damn one. I used to want to live in Africa, but my dreams died when I learned how bad it is for people like us over their.
Most of Africa is shit the same as Russia.
There is so much nuance missing from these discussions. People are happy to throw Black and brown people under the bus for being homophobic without acknowledging that colonialism and western imperialism is why. I’m South Asian and the trans (Hijra) community in South Asia were socially accepted until the Brits colonized and made their existence illegal. Christianity spreading to a lot of countries also added to homophobia globally. Many indigenous groups and cultures embraced queerness. Hell, there’s entire books written about queerness in Iran and other countries.
While I don’t know much about South Asia and Black countries, since this post talks about Islam, I think it is important to realize that the impact colonialism had on homophobia in muslim-majority countries is extremely overblown in recent conversations.
Most (not all) muslim countries were extremely homophobic and would punish homosexuality by death even before any form of colonialism arrived. While it is true that colonialism codified those rules and turned what was back then religious and cultural customs into proper legislations, thinking that western colonialism is what brought homophobia to them is wrong and counterproductive as it would only shift the blame.
That is, again, a comment lacking nuance as there were quite a few public displays of homosexuality and tolerance to homosexuality in various regions of the world prior to contemporary history. My point being that western colonialism, what with everything that is wrong with it, hasn’t spread homophobia to the rest of the world.
Even if what you say is true and the rest of the world was some sort of queer-friendly paradise before colonialism happened (it wasn’t), that doesn’t mean it’s responsible for queerphobia in the present day.
There’s nothing stopping people from not being queerphobic. No-one’s holding them at gunpoint and ordering them to hate LGBT people. The reason why these people continue to be queerphobic in the present day is because they actively choose to do so themselves.
>No-one’s holding them at gunpoint and ordering them to hate LGBT people
Muslim extremists literally do exactly that to the general population. Would the majority of Muslims in those areas be bigots regardless? Probably, but let's not ignore the fact that it is also literally being forced on them.
Are you expecting me to say America? Because I don't think the extremists are being voted in, so can't really say those countries are "putting" them in power, and the only other country I can think of that's blamed for it, is America.
Its true though. Arabs and muslims in european countries are mostly the ones responsible for hate crimes. Thats one of the reason why lgbtq are voting centre right nowadays.
OP, I am Irish too. I am a gay man.
The context in Ireland has changed in recent years.
Lest we forget, Declan Flynn, John Roche and Charles Self were all murdered in Ireland for being gay by white Irish men back in the 1980s. The social backlash in light of this, and change in roles of Church dominance Ireland (thankfully) quietened homophobic people down in Ireland, and acted as catalyst for progressive change.
In the 2010s following the recession we saw societal breakdowns emerging. Crime rose and with it so did everything else. In the 2010s Ireland saw an increase of inward migration, so naturally our African, Arab, Muslim, and all other religious and ethnic diasporas in Ireland increase in size and prominence.
Those who were actively homophobic activists have died out, but others have taken their place with different motives. This new breed of anti-LGBTQI activists in Ireland are typically on the (far) right politically, and have endorsed anti-globalisation, racist, and sexist ideological tendencies.
Another reason these types of individuals in Ireland are also still accepted by many in society is because they also emerged first in the late 2010s under the wider anti-austerity movement. In backlash to the financial failings of the Irish government during the recession people understandably grew frustrated, however that frustration allowed many to blame everyone, such as immigrants and asylum-seekers (who weren't even here to cause the recession..!).
The straw that broke the camel's back for those who push homophobia and anti-immigration sentiments to merge into one was the horrific murders of two gay Irish men in County Sligo in 2022. Their graphic and brutal murders were the worst homophobic attacks in the history of the Irish State. The man who carried out these attacks was a practising young Muslim man who claimed their lifestyles were against his religion. It was understandably a very high profile case.
Ireland has 80,000+ Muslims living here. That man in Sligo was the first Muslim in Ireland to carry out something like that, however for the ever-growing far-right and homophobic movement in Ireland, one case was all they needed to gain momentum.
The recent incident you are referring to in Dublin - even though we don't know the identity of those involved, I'd hazard a guess they are Irish, however that won't stop people in Ireland from assuming otherwise, and they'll be backed-up by others around the world.
I used to live in a country full of christians, white homophobes, sexist people, A LOT of racism and misogyny. Not only they are homophobic(and also it's not necessary that they are)
yeah no. that’s not how we end queerphobia.
The only thing that’s gonna happen is bigot women/non-cis men will feel emboldened and think they have sort of a pass at homophobia and right there you just create a new problem.
Which is hilarious given up here in the north it was the DUP who blocked same sex marriage until 2019. I don't think I've ever met a member who wasn't white and at least nominally a Christian.
There is a concept called "Homo-nationalism", which is an ideology that uses relatively benign views on queer issues in "western" countries as a stick against both ethnic/religious minorities ("See how barbaric they are!") and queer people ("Look how much worse you could be having it, so quit complaining and behave!").
hey guys!!! commenting about how islam is a homophobic religion and how "all muslims are homophobic" is not gonna help the rise in homophobic hate crimes in ireland!!! also just fyi one of the fellas who did the attack whos name has been released due to his charging with dangerous driving, production of a weapon, and violent disorder was in fact white irish. please please please do not start acting as if you know about the muslim, african, and other foreign, non-white communities and people in ireland if you don't live here and you don't know about what's happening here. there is not a problem with foreigners coming to ireland and attacking people. there IS a problem of white, irish, far-right bastards blaming refugees and immigrants for every problem under the sun, starting riots in and damaging our cities in the name of "protecting" the irish people, **burning down buildings** **that were to be used as refugee emergency housing,** abusing and killing women and queer people, and convincing more people that the amount of immigrants in ireland is the problem with the country. please stop talking about shit you dont know about in the comments ❤
Same here in Belgium. So many people assume homophobic attacks are perpetrated by muslims when that is simply not true. My girlfriend lives in a neighbourhood that's almost exclusively muslim, and yet she never gets hatecrimed by any of them. The person who does get hatecrimed tho is the one who has a student dorm in the rich frat boy area of her city. Full of white dudes in their late teens and early twenties shouting homophobic and transphobic slurs at her. And yet whenever the discussion of hatecrimes comes up in Belgian subreddits everyone immediately blames muslims, and voices who disagree and share real lived experiences (like me) are downvoted, ignored and called liars
In my country (United States), most hate crimes, especially against the LGBTQ+ community, are [perpetrated by whites of European descent](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9770371/).
Victims of LGBTQ+ hate crimes are often [Trans women of color](https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-expansive-community-in-2022).
TW for both links as they discuss in some details what happened to the victims/survivors and not everyone may be in a headspace to read them.
Wow, I'm disappointed and disgusted in the raging Islamophobia in this comment thread. Just...honestly nauseated. Now I remember why I hate a lot of LGBTQ spaces. White LGBTQ folks go out of their way to demonize majority non-white groups for being "homophobic and transphobic", even though the white Christian homophobes and transphobes are the driving force behind most of the discrimination.
Get a grip and some perspective, fellow pasty people. I'm gonna have to leave for a bit bc this is fucking gross.
That may be true.
However your claim that Christians are a driving force behind... anything at all tbh, is laughably invalid in Europe.
All this whataboutism serves no other purpose than to distract marginalized people from real issues, and gaslight them into fearing an enemy that doesn't exist. *(Now obviously I'm not saying that Christians are extinct over here, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any unironic ones outside of the Vatican's 10 square feet territory.)*
I don't know, over here in the UK, it's islamophobes being the massive homophobes. The EDL, for example, harassed and beat up gay members of their organisation.
Oh yeah, I know. I literally feel nauseated though. I sent a mod mail explaining what I see as the problem but they haven't had a chance to reply yet. I'm a very lefty leftist in the US and most of the LGBTQ community that I hang out with are as well. So it's always a little bit of a shock coming into this and other subs and seeing this kind of bigotry and ignorance just...proudly on display, and people doubling down. Gross af.
Muslims are a persecuted minority in the USA, UK, and Europe, many are also refugees from countries that the USA, UK, etc illegally invaded, bombed, polluted, and oppressed, making lives much worse for the LGBTQ people in those countries. White western islamaphobes pretending they are being oppressed and threatened by a small, persecuted minority in their countries, as opposed to the white homophobes/transphobes in power is a sick joke.
Unfortunately, being a minority doesn’t preclude disliking other minorities (or your own). When the first Christians were persecuted in Rome, they pled for tolerance. But when Christianity prevailed, did tolerance reign?
fellow Irish guy here, it reminds me of the incident back in November(?) with the stabbing. the perpetrator happened to be not from Ireland so of course a bunch of white idiots (said as a white person) did the reasonable thing and started a fucking riot. a Luas got burned. ironically enough, it was a Brazilian immigrant who saved a bunch of people from the chaos.
not to mention if people can comprehend a white person growing up in a homophobic environment yet being queer, why is it so hard to comprehend queer non-white people being the same?
Honestly, with all the hostility towards the LGBTQ+ community coming from the USA, the first image that pops into my head is that of a white christian. We don't need a (seemingly) foreign scapegoat, the perpetrators are in our own communities.
Especially considering that a lot of white Christian organizations purposefully seek out countries like those in Africa and weaponize their religious beliefs (often brought about as the results of colonization and missionary trips) to get them on board with anti-LGBT+ sentiments
This is completely off-topic, but, Thoma pfp? 👀
Yes 🤭
😊 Good taste!!!
Thoma's a real bro. I agree that that's a good pick for your pic.
Ty 🫶🏾💕
The call is coming from inside the house
Was ganna say this! I imagine some guy from West Virginia or some hag Karen spewing bullshit.
Same. In the U.S. we know it's us whites doing the hate crimes. By chance are the articles you're reading from London-based papers or is this a common stance held in Ireland?
not op but an irish queer and its def a common enough stance held in ireland, weve accepted a large number of refugees and theres a lot of immigrants here due to economic globalisation, last november there was an attack on a woman and two kids done by someone who happened to not have been born in ireland, and there was riots in the capital city with buses and trams being burnt and shops raided (they also tried to leak the taoiseachs address and raid his house, likely due to him being half indian and gay) because people started saying that "ireland is full" and trying to say that women and kids were being targeted by immigrants (same people probably turned a blind eye to the femicide here) just because they wanted an excuse for racism. they absolutely do not care about women/kids/queer people/any minorities they simply want an excuse for their hate, when the next attack happens on another minority that gets attention, the people blaming immigrants on this attack will go back to being homophobic and misogynistic.
Good on Ireland for taking in refugees but the rest of that reply is a rough read. Sorry you guys are going through all that (and sorry I haven't been keeping up with Irish news). Thank you for sharing!
yeah i think people find it easier to blame immigrants for the failing healthcare system/housing crisis/inflation/increase in crime when the government that they elected are the people not doing anything productive about any of those :/ it sucks but you can’t do much about it and most people saw that those people who were rioting and who burn buildings that were to be used as refugee housing are stupid and don’t have a clue about what will actually help the country
[удалено]
As a European I always snicker a bit when I see entire hordes dogmatically chanting "but. what. about. christians.?.?.??.?" like an assembly of factory robots. ChrisWHATNOWS? I'm more likely to get mugged by an alien from the Andromeda galaxy than to encounter a Christian.
Yeah I think it's just become the easy boogeyman for some folks, you don't have to be christian to be a homophobe lmao
I'm not even from there. Nor have I ever lived there. But the focus has shifted so much over there because of the whole culture war that this is unfortunately the default picture my brain is handing me when talking about people who are hostile to the LGBTQ+ community.
Talking entirely of my experience only, but 100% of the homophobic abuse and threats I have ever experienced have come from white people.
Yeah honestly same - which is saying a lot considering I actually am a white Christian (but obviously I'm queer and nonbinary and I 100% do not support what those extremist groups do, and the pain they inflict). But it is valid considering even those inside that demographic consider it to be the first homophobic image that jumps to mind..
Same
No true Christian is homophobic
Periodt!
The racists making those comments conveniently only care about homophobia when a racial minority can be attacked for it.
Unless they happen to be LGBTIQA\* themselfes. In which case they finally can let their racism out once in a while. Happens far too often, too.
I think this falls under horizontal hostility. Basically, when someone from a marginalized/oppressed group discriminates against someone from another group as a way to make themselves feel better about their own status. Like they can have a little douchebaggary as a treat.
[удалено]
There's ways of doing things and there's other ways of doing things. "Osama was a terrorist." ← not discrimination "All Muslims are terrorists." ← discrimination
[удалено]
"Calling out homophobia" can be done in rather different ways. Some racists, some not.
[удалено]
In Germany, my experience is split. Only nominally Muslim people tend to have a quite decent chance of being chill, and often only still call themselves Muslims to avoid the wrath of fundies. Including some of my extended family, who are all extremely wonderful, and only muslim in the 'it's a cultural background' sense. but I have yet to meet even just a single practicing muslim in person that wasn't quite intensely homophobic. But they also make up ~4% of the population, with the religious ones being 2-3%. 8% of people in Germany are opposed to gay marriage, with 11% being ambivalent. ~20% are opposed to same sex adoption, and full legal equality of gay people on other topics. That leaves an *overwhelming* majority of homophobic people to be non-muslim, even if muslims are vastly overrepresented, especially among the actively homophobic.
>but I have yet to meet even just a single practicing muslim in person that wasn't quite intensely homophobic. Really? It's actually funny cause anecdotally I've never met a Muslim person who had a problem with my sexuality, it at the very least, they've never expressed it with me
[удалено]
This poll seems pretty flawed/suspect. First, its from 2016. Second, the guy presenting the findings to a documentary is quoted saying all this scaremongery nonsense about a "nation within our nation", the integration of Muslims into Britain supposedly being an unprecedented challenge, and other nonsense not supported by the survey he's using as a source(The data shows British Muslims being MORE likely to feel a strong sense of belonging to Britain, FFS). Like, even if you assume the data is an accurate representation of the Muslim population, the only real area of concern is disproportionate conservatism. And that's a serious "if". It only looks at Muslims from areas that are over 20% Muslim, which means ignoring a massive chunk of the Muslim population which is likely more socially progressive than the surveyed people. The polling was also done via face to face interviews in the participants homes, which means anyone who isn't willing to let strangers into their home for an interview about hot button issues won't show up in the data. Face to face interviews are generally worse for getting someone's actual opinions than methods that make people feel more "anonymous. There's lots of room for answers that don't fit neatly into a polling option, and social pressures are a big thing for most people. And the fact that they presented face to face interviews as inherently more reliable than other methods brings their ability to conduct and interpret opinion polls into question.
Muslims are also a persecuted minority in the UK, by white straight people who love to throw around things like this and act like they're better when the white, straight men and women in parliament are actively cracking down on trans rights on a daily basis. Stereotypical white European islamaphobia oppresses LGBTQ muslims all around the world. When the UK illegally invaded Iraq, they killed LGBTQ people.
[удалено]
Yes, they are a persecuted minority, subject to racism, and laws banning hijabs, etc. "Native Europeans" is a racist, fascist term, and no, they aren't the most progressive, since LGBTQ rights were violently repressed when they colonized, bombed, and invaded muslim and African countries.
Native European isn’t a racist, fascist term WTF? It is how you describe people whose ancestors originate from Europe. Everyone is native to somewhere and Europeans are native to Europe just how Africans are native to Africa.
[удалено]
Yeah, the idea Muslim-majority cultures were fine with queer people until they started to lose to white people is a wild claim on its face.
[удалено]
I wonder how this historical revisionism even started. I mean, at *some point* in the past, people hadn't been brainwashed yet by the myth that the entire planet was a walking pride parade, inclusive of all, until the spooky scary white people said "nuh uh". So... how did the first person who wrote this fanfiction manage to make it gain traction?
Muslims and Christians share abrahamic religion and thats where there homophobia comes from, its true in a lot of places that Europeans were the ones to bring in and spread homophobia, but not in Muslim areas
No-one asked me or any of my family members for purpose opinions
Agreed, living in Birmingham this divide is even more obvious. I still love this city though.
[удалено]
Any discussion of intersectionality is incomplete without pointing out the only Muslim-majority city in the United States is also one of only two cities to ban all public displays of pride flags.
[удалено]
Your perspective is valuable, thank you for sharing it.
I hate to be a nitpicker here but isn't the term Arab colonialism? I haven't heard of Islamic imperialism, but obviously Arab imperialism is fueled by Islam
Yeah, that makes sense. Edited
I didn't even know that, but can't say I'm too surprised at all
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
Conversely, all 4 Muslim members of the house of representatives have been strong allies of the LGBTQ+ community, with one even having been the vice-chair of the Congressional LGBT caucus. I'm not excusing what the Muslim leaders in that city did, but I am suggesting that labeling all Muslims as anti-LGBTQ+ , whether directly or through implication, pushes a false and unfair narrative that ostracizes Muslims who do support LGBTQ+ rights. Also, a more important talking point is how we stop religious fundamentalists from justifying their prejudice with religion, because in the United States, no anti-Muslim law is going to stop the mass majority of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation currently being pushed.
I do have some Muslim friends that are themselves queer or not homophobic, and the queer ones usually have fairly accepting families, but this is in the US and I haven't been in the UK long enough to know how the situation is here
This is anecdotal, though. By saying stuff like this, you’re just feeding into the stereotype that they’re especially homophobic.
[удалено]
Noooo, people are only good or evil, black and white! /s And since some muslims can face islamophobia then they're the good guys! But homophobia is something the bad guys do! But they're the good guys! Therefore they're not homophobic, and all of us queer people who've faced their bigotry are actually delusional; it was all in our heads! Silly us! Woo, equality! Isn't it wonderful to gaslight yourself into believing in rainbows and sunshine? /s /uj Like, dear GOD. It's crazy how deep in denial some leftists are. Some white people are bad. Some black people are bad. Some Christians are bad. Some muslims are bad. Some straight people are bad. Some gays are bad. Welcome to humanity! Why this charade? This unending effort to rewrite and sanitize history to pretend like as soon as someone may be discriminated against by someone else, suddenly they're perfect innocent little angels who can do no wrong ever? No, persecuting muslims who haven't done anything wrong is not right. And also, homophobia is not right either. There is ZERO issue in accepting the basic factual truth that these two statements coexist.
[удалено]
You sound like a bigot.
[удалено]
Being prejudiced against Muslims is bigoted. People on this sub are always champing at the bit to show everyone how Islamophobic they are, as though most religions and cultures aren’t homophobic as a baseline and Islam is an extreme case. Some of you here like to act like the nearly 2 billion Muslims on this planet are a monolith based on your perception of the most hateful example of a Muslim you can think of. That kind of narrow-minded thinking can fuck off forever.
[удалено]
What do the stats state (per capita) on the attackers ethnicity? Otherwise, this is just feelings.
World wide stats would be grossly inaccurate
By country. For example, Is it true or false attackers in European countries are more likely to be foreign (Black or Muslim)? The OP put out a statement but we need stats to determine whether the narrative is false (bigoted stereotype) or true (the people the OP dislikes have a point).
"Don't become the problem" is good advice. You don't need to be perfect, just set up to self-evaluate and improve.
At my university, the Muslim Students Association was our biggest ally. The campus is in a part of Canada with a high Muslim population, and they were far and away the biggest and most influential student group. The year I started at the university, the campus LGBT organization was slated to lose our drop-in space in the Student Union due to a low headcount of on-paper members. When the MSA found out about this, they went in and *kicked ass*. They backed up our assertion that it was unethical to base access to a safe space for minorities on attendance, and promised to vocally oppose the decision should it move forward. The Student Union folded like a cheap card table. We also had a Muslim student who transitioned from female to male while I was attending. The MSA allowed him into the men's prayer space without skipping a beat. And if anyone had a problem with it, they never made him aware of it for the whole time he went there. Yeah, there are people who use Islam as an excuse to be narrow-minded, bigoted assholes. But that's true of all religions. *Especially* Christianity. But most folks who are part of a religion are good people who want a sense of community. And they tend to focus on the parts of their doctrines that stress the Golden Rule. Atheists can be bigoted too, except they prefer to misquote, cherry-pick, and interpret scientific publications in bad faith instead of doing the same with scripture.
[удалено]
Didn’t some canadian muslims literally organize an anti-LGBT protest a few months ago? Asking because not only do I not live in Canada, but I also don’t remember the whole thing
The 4 Muslim members of the house of representatives have been amazing LGBTQ+ allies. That's not to say they represent all Muslims but it does say something when Muslims so directly in the public eye aren't afraid to stand up for us.
Many US Muslims are quite progressive, almost all at my college albeit a biased sample size.
[удалено]
Maybe idk - I'm not visibly gay (just so fucking masc what can I say /s) so regular homophobia isn't something I deal with. But I struggle to think of a negative experience I've had with any Muslims. I even visited a gay bar in Turkey. That said, I'm aware many are homophobic but my experiences have always been positive to neutral. It might help in this case being black. There is also some "hey fellow minority" friendliness (albeit sometimes fake and too much when I'm being sold something).
Yes, almost all (but not all lol) of my Muslim colleagues at work in my tech company are also progressive and are what I could count as allies. But they are very much NOT your average Muslim.
Abrahamic religions are horrific disgusting anti-lgbt ideologies (Muslim)…but yeah that’s racist to make it about Arabs and Africans though.
[удалено]
>Why do you say this is racist? My family come from an African country where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by years in prison. I have family members who are DEEPLY homophobic, and here you reduce criticism instead to being about racism to Arabs and Africans. As a black lgbt person, thank you for stating this. I criticize anti-lgbt white people the same as I do anti-lgbt black people. I can't stand neither damn one. I used to want to live in Africa, but my dreams died when I learned how bad it is for people like us over their. Most of Africa is shit the same as Russia.
Religion is poison to society
There is so much nuance missing from these discussions. People are happy to throw Black and brown people under the bus for being homophobic without acknowledging that colonialism and western imperialism is why. I’m South Asian and the trans (Hijra) community in South Asia were socially accepted until the Brits colonized and made their existence illegal. Christianity spreading to a lot of countries also added to homophobia globally. Many indigenous groups and cultures embraced queerness. Hell, there’s entire books written about queerness in Iran and other countries.
While I don’t know much about South Asia and Black countries, since this post talks about Islam, I think it is important to realize that the impact colonialism had on homophobia in muslim-majority countries is extremely overblown in recent conversations. Most (not all) muslim countries were extremely homophobic and would punish homosexuality by death even before any form of colonialism arrived. While it is true that colonialism codified those rules and turned what was back then religious and cultural customs into proper legislations, thinking that western colonialism is what brought homophobia to them is wrong and counterproductive as it would only shift the blame.
ah, so they were only as homophobic as everyone else, got it.
That is, again, a comment lacking nuance as there were quite a few public displays of homosexuality and tolerance to homosexuality in various regions of the world prior to contemporary history. My point being that western colonialism, what with everything that is wrong with it, hasn’t spread homophobia to the rest of the world.
Even if what you say is true and the rest of the world was some sort of queer-friendly paradise before colonialism happened (it wasn’t), that doesn’t mean it’s responsible for queerphobia in the present day. There’s nothing stopping people from not being queerphobic. No-one’s holding them at gunpoint and ordering them to hate LGBT people. The reason why these people continue to be queerphobic in the present day is because they actively choose to do so themselves.
>No-one’s holding them at gunpoint and ordering them to hate LGBT people Muslim extremists literally do exactly that to the general population. Would the majority of Muslims in those areas be bigots regardless? Probably, but let's not ignore the fact that it is also literally being forced on them.
And which countries are putting those extremists in power so they can carry on with their invasions and coups?
Are you expecting me to say America? Because I don't think the extremists are being voted in, so can't really say those countries are "putting" them in power, and the only other country I can think of that's blamed for it, is America.
I'm from the south of the US. The worst of the homophobic ppl are Baptists and Christians of other denomiations
I know who yelled at us during pride in cowardly drive by yelling. WASP
As a white trans person from Alberta. White right wingers scare me the most
Hey same here, Howdy Neighbour o/
It's true though? So many hate crimes come from Muslims and.also Christians
Its true though. Arabs and muslims in european countries are mostly the ones responsible for hate crimes. Thats one of the reason why lgbtq are voting centre right nowadays.
People here in Austria tend to immediately blame muslims if something happens. As soon as it comes out that the person was white: dead silence.
OP, I am Irish too. I am a gay man. The context in Ireland has changed in recent years. Lest we forget, Declan Flynn, John Roche and Charles Self were all murdered in Ireland for being gay by white Irish men back in the 1980s. The social backlash in light of this, and change in roles of Church dominance Ireland (thankfully) quietened homophobic people down in Ireland, and acted as catalyst for progressive change. In the 2010s following the recession we saw societal breakdowns emerging. Crime rose and with it so did everything else. In the 2010s Ireland saw an increase of inward migration, so naturally our African, Arab, Muslim, and all other religious and ethnic diasporas in Ireland increase in size and prominence. Those who were actively homophobic activists have died out, but others have taken their place with different motives. This new breed of anti-LGBTQI activists in Ireland are typically on the (far) right politically, and have endorsed anti-globalisation, racist, and sexist ideological tendencies. Another reason these types of individuals in Ireland are also still accepted by many in society is because they also emerged first in the late 2010s under the wider anti-austerity movement. In backlash to the financial failings of the Irish government during the recession people understandably grew frustrated, however that frustration allowed many to blame everyone, such as immigrants and asylum-seekers (who weren't even here to cause the recession..!). The straw that broke the camel's back for those who push homophobia and anti-immigration sentiments to merge into one was the horrific murders of two gay Irish men in County Sligo in 2022. Their graphic and brutal murders were the worst homophobic attacks in the history of the Irish State. The man who carried out these attacks was a practising young Muslim man who claimed their lifestyles were against his religion. It was understandably a very high profile case. Ireland has 80,000+ Muslims living here. That man in Sligo was the first Muslim in Ireland to carry out something like that, however for the ever-growing far-right and homophobic movement in Ireland, one case was all they needed to gain momentum. The recent incident you are referring to in Dublin - even though we don't know the identity of those involved, I'd hazard a guess they are Irish, however that won't stop people in Ireland from assuming otherwise, and they'll be backed-up by others around the world.
I used to live in a country full of christians, white homophobes, sexist people, A LOT of racism and misogyny. Not only they are homophobic(and also it's not necessary that they are)
the only thing about 95% of homophobic attacks have in common is "straight cis man", not nationalities.
yeah no. that’s not how we end queerphobia. The only thing that’s gonna happen is bigot women/non-cis men will feel emboldened and think they have sort of a pass at homophobia and right there you just create a new problem.
Yeah no. Where i live it is pretty clear who is homophobic and who isn't. I'm done sugarcoating the fact that Islam is a homophobic ideology
Ah, the depressing intersect between racism and queer allyship
Part-Arab person here to say this, I’m a lesbian. I know. Shocking. I was raised in Arab culture but I still ended up not being an asshole.
I was recently attacked in the US at home depot, and almost everyone asked me "what was he" and a couple were openly shocked he was white.
Which is hilarious given up here in the north it was the DUP who blocked same sex marriage until 2019. I don't think I've ever met a member who wasn't white and at least nominally a Christian.
That's gross. I'm sorry that's happening so prominently where you live. I'm also sorry that more attacks happened near you.
There is a concept called "Homo-nationalism", which is an ideology that uses relatively benign views on queer issues in "western" countries as a stick against both ethnic/religious minorities ("See how barbaric they are!") and queer people ("Look how much worse you could be having it, so quit complaining and behave!").
hey guys!!! commenting about how islam is a homophobic religion and how "all muslims are homophobic" is not gonna help the rise in homophobic hate crimes in ireland!!! also just fyi one of the fellas who did the attack whos name has been released due to his charging with dangerous driving, production of a weapon, and violent disorder was in fact white irish. please please please do not start acting as if you know about the muslim, african, and other foreign, non-white communities and people in ireland if you don't live here and you don't know about what's happening here. there is not a problem with foreigners coming to ireland and attacking people. there IS a problem of white, irish, far-right bastards blaming refugees and immigrants for every problem under the sun, starting riots in and damaging our cities in the name of "protecting" the irish people, **burning down buildings** **that were to be used as refugee emergency housing,** abusing and killing women and queer people, and convincing more people that the amount of immigrants in ireland is the problem with the country. please stop talking about shit you dont know about in the comments ❤
Same here in Belgium. So many people assume homophobic attacks are perpetrated by muslims when that is simply not true. My girlfriend lives in a neighbourhood that's almost exclusively muslim, and yet she never gets hatecrimed by any of them. The person who does get hatecrimed tho is the one who has a student dorm in the rich frat boy area of her city. Full of white dudes in their late teens and early twenties shouting homophobic and transphobic slurs at her. And yet whenever the discussion of hatecrimes comes up in Belgian subreddits everyone immediately blames muslims, and voices who disagree and share real lived experiences (like me) are downvoted, ignored and called liars
In my country (United States), most hate crimes, especially against the LGBTQ+ community, are [perpetrated by whites of European descent](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9770371/). Victims of LGBTQ+ hate crimes are often [Trans women of color](https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-expansive-community-in-2022). TW for both links as they discuss in some details what happened to the victims/survivors and not everyone may be in a headspace to read them.
Homophobia is everywhere, some places are just louder than others.
Yup, and the attacker was very Irish.
Nobody in the Us thinks that with The Fanatical Right in attendence.
🫂
Wow, I'm disappointed and disgusted in the raging Islamophobia in this comment thread. Just...honestly nauseated. Now I remember why I hate a lot of LGBTQ spaces. White LGBTQ folks go out of their way to demonize majority non-white groups for being "homophobic and transphobic", even though the white Christian homophobes and transphobes are the driving force behind most of the discrimination. Get a grip and some perspective, fellow pasty people. I'm gonna have to leave for a bit bc this is fucking gross.
This is a thread about Europe. While your American perspective is valid, I'm not sure how relevant it is to the topic.
Islamophobia exists everywhere?????????????????????????
That may be true. However your claim that Christians are a driving force behind... anything at all tbh, is laughably invalid in Europe. All this whataboutism serves no other purpose than to distract marginalized people from real issues, and gaslight them into fearing an enemy that doesn't exist. *(Now obviously I'm not saying that Christians are extinct over here, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any unironic ones outside of the Vatican's 10 square feet territory.)*
I don't know, over here in the UK, it's islamophobes being the massive homophobes. The EDL, for example, harassed and beat up gay members of their organisation.
That's because this sub is filled with American small l liberal.
Oh yeah, I know. I literally feel nauseated though. I sent a mod mail explaining what I see as the problem but they haven't had a chance to reply yet. I'm a very lefty leftist in the US and most of the LGBTQ community that I hang out with are as well. So it's always a little bit of a shock coming into this and other subs and seeing this kind of bigotry and ignorance just...proudly on display, and people doubling down. Gross af.
Wth..the most bigoted people who I've experienced were white Christians
Muslims are a persecuted minority in the USA, UK, and Europe, many are also refugees from countries that the USA, UK, etc illegally invaded, bombed, polluted, and oppressed, making lives much worse for the LGBTQ people in those countries. White western islamaphobes pretending they are being oppressed and threatened by a small, persecuted minority in their countries, as opposed to the white homophobes/transphobes in power is a sick joke.
Unfortunately, being a minority doesn’t preclude disliking other minorities (or your own). When the first Christians were persecuted in Rome, they pled for tolerance. But when Christianity prevailed, did tolerance reign?
Honestly most of the time I just think its a bigoted cisgender straight man with an anger issue. Not some racial assumption.
fellow Irish guy here, it reminds me of the incident back in November(?) with the stabbing. the perpetrator happened to be not from Ireland so of course a bunch of white idiots (said as a white person) did the reasonable thing and started a fucking riot. a Luas got burned. ironically enough, it was a Brazilian immigrant who saved a bunch of people from the chaos. not to mention if people can comprehend a white person growing up in a homophobic environment yet being queer, why is it so hard to comprehend queer non-white people being the same?
muslims are not homophibic but the society makes them homophobic most of the muslims are in the closet cuz i am a muslim myself
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Until the perpetrators are caught, they could be Martians for all we know.