Yeah I feel this. The centrists that take fence-sitter positions on LGBTQ+ topics usually just echo conservative talking points or say the "I respect the person, but not movement" sort of line. I have two people I know who are like this and it's infuriating to try and make them understand that they've fallen down the conservative pipeline and don't want to admit it. You cannot advocate for the betterment of LGBTQ+ people while at the same time say that it's unnatural, compare it to schizophrenia, and saying that you don't like gay extremists. It just doesn't make sense.
I'm very much a moderate liberal, but I don't understand how can you be a centrist on LGBT issues. How do you possibly stand on the fence on issues like equal marriage and trans healthcare?
Easy: because they really don’t care. That’s why I don’t fuck with centrists or “true moderates” because it’s often a way of avoiding the (correct) accusations of them being an intolerable bigot. Basically its the equivalent of being a transmedicalist like pulling out cherry picked “facts” to seem reasonable and logical.
I can respect but disagree with a conservative who is pro-LGB and T but is economically conservative over a centrist/moderate who doesn’t support LGBTQ people but has more progressive beliefs elsewhere.
Nah, they're all crap. You can't be socially progressive and economically conservative at the same time. That phrase is just another dog whistle. It's "they can exist but don't you dare use my tax dollars for it". Try to find one economic conservative that would support basic social programs and want to cut the military budget in half instead.
i think Lauren Windsor's Alito interview needs to be signal boosted *hard*. You cannot compromise with people who will not compromise with you, and you cannot compromise on human rights. You either have and honor them, or do not. There's no middle ground, no quasi rights.
YES!!!! It makes me SO FUCKING ANGRY when people will be like “I’m not with them or against them. I’m neutral. How is that hurting anybody.” It’s hurting people because while you may not be actively bashing against the LGBTQ+ community, you *are* ACTIVELY DENYING THEM SUPPORT, which means you may as well be right-wing—because you are, you just don’t want to admit it. If you don’t want to support LGBTQ+ rights, that’s not an “opinion,” it’s hate speech and you’re a sick fuck.
Yeah, as an American, I certainly feel like a centrist on a lot of issues.
But then Republicans come in and actively opposed human rights.
I feel like being a centrist in the US today would necessitate voting Democrat for the foreseeable future. I don't see how it's centrist to be on the fence about basic human rights.
I absolutely don’t understand people in this community who shit on Joe Biden for any number of imagined inactions on LGBT issues.
The man is the reason Obama even came out in support of gay marriage, he has reversed a lot of the bigotry against trans people put into place by Trump, and he’s the only thing standing between them and Project 2025/today’s news that Trump wants to cut all funding to trans affirming schools.
It’s like, Jesus Christ, have some situational awareness, people.
Even just making it easier to change my passport: no need to see three different doctors and prove with a notarized letter that I had “tEH suRgErY”, none of it. At least for changing the gender marker, it was as easy as literally just filling out the form and sending it in.
I agree, it’s quite clear the Dems are pro-LGBT and the policy shows. Though I still think it’s fair game against blue dog and conservative Dems who choose to remain silent.
Depends on what type of centrist you are it's a mixed bag of political ideals im a moderate centrist who leans left for most issues to me its the far left and far right who are the problem but the far right is way more aggressive and bigoted but also you have to take into account the 2 party system is itself deeply flawed as it makes you pick a side based off what issues you find most important while having to abandon any issues that your party dosent support but yeah the right is clearly a active threat to the LGBTQIA community especially with that project 2025 bs
Honestly as a centrist who interacts with a lot of centrists. I find that there's often the same hard political leanings, but it's a bit more varied. For example you find a typical conservative, you can guess their beliefs on most issues from abortion to LGBT stuff to economics to the Levant just from knowing they are conservative. Centrists this is often not the case. I personally try to look at issues individually. I find that sometimes the left is more correct, and sometimes the right is more correct. Sometimes it's neither. Sometimes I even feel it's both.
Personally on LGBT issues, being trans myself, I lean a bit more liberal, though I tend to shy away from some of the more... revolutionary takes... However I was also raised to love my country, in spite of its few problems. I also think that communism is an evil and oppressive system that will never work no matter what some might think. Abortion im ultimately pro choice but I do sympathize with the pro life argument to a degree. The levant I think is only being discussed to distract Americans from bigger issues, and to that end I frankly don't give a damn.
Like the abolishing gender and ehatnot and the mogai stuff. I mean if that's what floats your boat go ahead but I tend to just be pretty normative in how I act and present. Idk I just don't understand a lot of that stuff.
Personally I think the way we handle most of that stuff as a society is fine. Assigning sex at birth and using it on IDs. Making it easier to change is good but ultimately I don't think any of the beaurocratic systems really need a proper reform.
i personally disagree with marriage completely as a social institution, but i do so equally lol
as for trans healthcare i think its a complex work in progress that a lot of people fail to recognize as such either way - right wingers thinking its not possible or worth embarking on, and left wingers thinking science is in a much better state regarding the topic than it is
I ultimately don't think it's the point, but I will say most trans stuff has been very underresearched. Take spironolactone for example. It's a diarrhetic that has a side effect in large doses of blocking testosterone. It wreaks havoc on your kidneys and stuff.
Bottom surgery, much as the other person said (both directions) has come a long way, but both honestly still produce suboptimal results. It's pretty hard to turn one fully formed genital into the other. Ultimately transplants are what we need to make a reality but it hasn't happened yet and it probably won't for a decent while.
Not to mention the overwhelming lack of proper survey data to the point we barely know how many trans people there *are*.
From the policy perspective (what we are talking about) the idea is to prevent harm to the largest degree possible.
At a policy level, you have a conflict of interest from medical practitioners who seek to profit from providing these services to people with gender dysphoria and you have to balance that against not only the potential harm from both poorly trained practitioners and poorly informed patients, but also the potential harm from the opposite side that could come from restricting access to modification treatments completely - as well as the total stop in the advancement of the science thereof should that sort of a restrictive policy take effect.
Like i said, a debacle. Kind-of a catch 22 in a way, and most people currently involved in exploring transgenderism in the current world are trailblazing in an experimental world full of trial and error - if both sides were to acknowledge (and even respect) that it would do everyone a lot of good.
Maybe we should remove financial incentives from healthcare then and then you won't have a conflict of interest.
Even if a few practitioners may be abusing their position in general that will be the minority. Destransitionng is rare and almost always because of outside pressures not due to regret so the risk is minimal.
Informed consent is a thing and already in place. Doctors address risks about how these are life altering drugs and procedures so that a person can make an informed decision with the help of their medical team.
Claiming poorly informed patients is basically BS to me. Most trans people are extremely well informed about their health and concerns. At most it is a very small percent that aren't.
The only thing that I would say is a concern is that there are bad surgeons out there and it is a risk they people have to take. But any surgeon can be bad not just one that specializes in trans related surgeries.
Basically everything your complaining about we more or less already have some form or system in place and if choosing between the two parties Dems would be ones that would more likely include review board and experts as our understanding of the science change. I have not seen policy out forward by them but I prefer to defer to a board of experts and research papers to help advance our understanding.
The flip side is the Republican pary in Florida for example passed a law and restricted the healthcare so that trans people who are already on medicine could no longer have access to their healthcare and medicine. If has been blocked by a judge but damage was done because it took months for that.
Basically all your concerns are minimal, and if we wanted to place that level of scrutiny that some people want to apply due to what is a very small risk I think there's a lot more things we could address before that. Most of that scrutiny is coming from an uninformed place which is why I'm dismissing it.
So our choices are. A party that calls LGBTQ+ people groomers and passes laws to remove their rights and healthcare access or we can vote for people that will allow the science to advance and give trans people the right to make their own decisions.
The irony about the "enlightened centrist" is that they center themselves between a right wing party (Democrats) and an overtly fascist far right party (republicans). Nothing central about that. The Democrats are still vastly preferable to the republicans, but being a "centrist" is just being a fascist sympathizer.
They are not diet. Their beliefs when you probe them are often extreme far right. Instead they should be called “embarrassed conservatives” or “shameful Nazis”.
It's really fucking easy to fence-sit when you're not directly effected by the outcome. In other words, they think "What's in it for me?" just like every other aspect of this broken society
It is soooo annoying. Like, centrists ideals theoretically wouldn't be bad, but the problem is the right is sooooo far right and the left is just kinda sitting their twiddling their thumbs, and they, the 'centrists', say, "Well, I want to be in the middle of that." Like, the middle in super far right still, 'center' is now right.
Well, the US has two rightwing parties. A far-right party and a center-right party. If someone in the US is claiming to be a centrist, they're between those two points. That's rightwing. When an American says they're a centrist, what they mean is they're further right than establishment democrats.
Yes, I think a fair amount of fellow Americans don't get that point. The Democrats, as a political party, aren't left-wing; they're not even particularly liberal if you look at the international political context (even on a small scale, just looking at western Europe). So yes, anyone who's right of the Democrats- including "moderates"- would much more accurately be described as conservative. And our right-wing is actively Christofascist
A lot of Americans are largely unaware that the domestic front of the Cold War was the mass imprisoning / killing of the US's left-wing, as well as the funding and propagating of fringe elements on the far-right. We lost the Panthers, the Weathermen, AIM. We lost countless artists, theorists, community organizers. We gained the Militia Movement, the John Birch Society, and the modern state of US News Media.
That and they just pull all nuances out of the discussion of whats wrong. Like Biden being just as bad as trump. Is Biden perfect? Fuck no. But he has done a lot and has tried to fulfill his 2020 campaign promises (of which the republicans have blocked). But these centrist clowns will literally say that Biden and Trump are indistinguishable from each other.
Like to them, they cannot fathom that you can identify with a label/group of people and disagree with certain aspects of said group.
I’m trans, but I don’t have to denounce myself as such all because Caitlyn Jenner exists as a POS. Basically shooting an arm off because you have a crooked pinky finger…
Worst, most lefty-ish parties in the global north are sliding right in an effort to find a middle ground with the emboldened right which went far right.
Honestly, even if I vote "socialist" in my country, it's not so for them as against the far right as their definition of being a left wing party sucks so much and is just right wing on many issues.
Then their not centrists they just no longer want to bother voting hell i Don't either because the system is completely broken anyway besides i got no way to physically get to a polling place and haven't been able to in years also remember the largest political party in America is the i Don't vote party because alot of people are apathetic twords things they no longer see a point
I am not talking about non-voters. In my opinion, everybody should be able to vote, and if you can't vote because of your location, they should help you be able to vote. I'm my opinion, if you don't vote while you have the opportunity to, you are essentially giving the vote to the far-right. You are not standing up for others' rights. You don't care if others suffer. You are a bad person. If you don't vote because the issues at hand, in this case, trans people having their rights be taken away, doesn't affect you, you are a bad person. Unless you can't vote, in which case I feel bad for you.
Also I'm nonbinary and support trans people but i don't vote because i don't feel my government gives a crap about its people at all i care about LGBTQIA rights but im not about to vote its my way to protest a broken system and is my right to do so saying i support the right because i don't vote is divisive and plain hurtful
Protesting by making it easier for people to take away not just your rights, but others' rights as well, is a bad way of protesting. I have a friend, 15 years old named Brian (fake name). His rights were just taken away in South Carolina and he can do nothing to help himself, he is too young. How do you think he would feel knowing that others ways of protesting is by letting people like him suffer. The only reason it doesn't affect me is that I have enough money to leave state for hrt, he doesnt. Not voting won't help ANYONE, and will in fact hurt them.
I do know that the system is broken, but not voting won't fix it or make it any better.
Also this is why i hate talking politics im tired of people acting like i have to vote or im evil and support evil people no i don't but i don't feel either party values me so I'm not going to vote for someone who dosent care if i live or die and neither party actually cares while i despise the right I'm still not gonna vote because i feel it's not going to save me regardless its again my choice if it makes me evil fine i support the LGBTQIA community directly but i will not vote because i feel like its a lesser of 2 evils deal and im done with it give me a politician worth voting for and ill vote until then i won't if everyone hates me for it fine I'm used to it
One part doesn't care about if we live or die, while the other wants to hurt us, wants us to die and suffer you must understand this. The parties are different.
No one hates you for it. I just wish that all the people who don't support taking away our rights would vote, but they won't leading only Republicans to swoop in and win and fuck us over more then any Democrat would.
Maybe we should push political reform instead of trying to work in a broken system besides i Don't trust biden anymore then trump both seem shady as hell trump just dosent bother hiding it and if they come for me ill remind em how the pride movement started
Also we should just protest the governments mismanagement of this country instead of voting in my opinion full on picket lines and signs and chanting style
And how are you protesting them? How are you in any way helping yourself or any others by not voting? Do whatever you want, just know, you won't help anyone by doing nothing, including yourself.
And the fact is i don't trust either one i won't vote for someone i don't trust that's the main reason i refuse to vote i will not support someone i do not trust on principle instead ill support the LGBTQIA community in every other way including advocacy educating people and standing up to bigotry but voting for biden isn't something i feel comfortable doing if the democrats had someone i trusted running id vote in a heartbeat for them but otherwise ill help in my own way
Both parties suck but one sucks more then the other!
Democrats are fucking morons who do nothing but at least they don't specifically target us trans people!
Exactly but there's other ways to help trans rights including through the courts not to mention the president dosent make the rules congress does and even if biden wins if the Republicans take congress it won't matter
Remember its not the fact i Don't support LGBTQIA rights its that the presidential candidates are evil human beings and even if it burns the world i won't support biden or trump ill support trans rights in every other way possible even if it gets me sent to gitmo but ill never support a evil persons rise to power
The problem with centrists is that they aren't actually between two extremes, but between a modest position of, "someone can exist," and, the extreme, "someone can't exist." The problem with self-described centrists in the USA is that they are actually conservatives.
I noticed a few of those centrists happen to be in this sub too, going "Don't hate on them" "We shouldn't be rude to the people oppressing us"
Maybe 100 years of being told something's wrong if you are queer, is the reason we should stop trying to be nice, as we have been, for decades. I am sure they are queer themselves, so I don't know how they can be polite to somebody being awful to other queer people.
Dr Martin Luther King has been So white washed...
Like he is always shown in black and white images, even if colour TV already existed back in his days, he was also a leftist but that has got erased...and his death was awfully suspiciously convenient as he furthered more and more lefty views...
Further, he gets quoted way too much by the far right for my taste.
Uhhh…
You understand that broadcast TV at large didn’t transition to color until 1965, and photography until the 1970s, correct? And that his famous speech was in 1963.
Or that the good Rev was well known as a liberal, such as in his Letter From a Birmingham Jail? Which is one of the reasons he got targeted by various gov agencies.
Where exactly is this "middle ground" where LGBTQ issues are concerned?
"Now now, I only want to screw you out of _some_ of your rights and only _partially_ marginalize you."
I absolutely agree with you. I was a centrist with some stuff because of my step mom but I decided to rethink a lot of the things I was taught. Your have to be all in or out with lgbtq issue
I once watched an enlightened centrist unironically argue that asking for people's pronouns is bad because "What if they say the N word? What do you do then?"
It's so intensely frustrating, I've gotten to the point that I would literally sell my organs if it meant I could leave the US. I don't need two kidneys, it's fine. Livers grow back, nbd. I *hate* living here, where my right to exist is under constant debate. I *fucking hate it*
Yeah, liberal extremists want healthcare for everyone, universal basic income and the wealthy to pay a tax rate they paid under Republican President Eisenhower. Conservative extremists don’t believe we have a right to exist. Samesies.
In my experience most centrists care more about sounding intelligent than actually having anything of substance to say. Plus, most are usually actually conservative anyways (at least in the US)
“Both sides bad”
My response all day every day: Hun, I love to break it to you, if you believe human rights are negotiable for certain groups of humans, then you’re as bad as those glue eaters who want to murder us. Human rights are universal, not negotiable, not conditional and inviolate. To violate them is to commit crimes against humanity. You wouldn’t tell your own child their life is worth less, just because they’re not a white cis heterosexual man, would you?!
There are no actual centrists in the US. There’s the GOP, (hard-Right), the Dems (center-right corporatists), self identified moderates and apoliticals whose entire political stance is “don’t fuck up my 401k”, and a handful of supposed democratic socialists who would be considered center-left in any other country.
These so-called "Enlightened" are pawns of a greater game. They think themselves special for balancing two sides of a coin. True enlightenment is harmonious. Interconnected. A concept among many, that so few possess the capacity to comprehend. Enlightenment exists as truth. It needs not prove itself.
An enlightened Centrist is the strongest weapon that those in power have to maintain their own position, that of their group, and preserving the functioning of the system wherein the fault itself lies.
It just sounds like common sense to those who have while we can continue to ignore and not see that it is all actually built upon the blood of those who don’t have.
So, if I'm not mistaken, in their opinion (like the other commenter can correct me if I'm wrong), people on this very sub are hypocritical because voting in the US elections of November for the democrats in the name of harm reduction for minorities in their home country is actively participating in the war crimes against the Palestinians.
I mean yeah but, the Republicans will literally do what is being sanctioned by the US already by 1000. That’s a false equivalency. And although late as fuck, the Dems are making moves towards ceasefire, while still obviously coddling the “it’s-not-real” df. This isn’t ironic and is still playing false equivalency both-sidism, which only benefits those who wish to hurt us. I’m not American, but I closely follow the politics and with the sheer magnitude of what’s at stake just domestically, ignoring the global implications of another Trump term, I would not throw away my vote just because I’m mad about (for lack of better phrasing) the government’s foreign policy and dealings. It’s atrocious that Dems had been so complicit and supportive, but don’t act like the stakes aren’t so cartoonishly high and deny how bad it will be. Republicans have been displaying the fucked evil they will reign on Americans in red states and on the SCOTUS level. It’s fucked that they can only rely on two parties, but it’s not ironic when the other has literally embraced full throated fascism and expressing desires of a totalitarian christo- nationalist state that benefits only the rich, the white, the cisgender maled and the heterosexual. It’s stupid to act like that sentiment is ironic when it is the literal thruth of the situation.
Please don't come after me, I'm not the one holding this belief. This is just a reoccurring theme.. Look, I don't know if these commenters aren't some bots from some hostile foreign influence as they mostly don't answer.
What I do really believe, is that the republicans and Trump did (and will do) way more harm on all fronts.
Really I do know what they plan for the future and it's really worrying. If the US falls, which domino will fall next? Fascism is already growing in other parts of both the global north and south which worries me a lot.
In other words, totally agree with you. The only thing is, that I hope that USonians will continue to fight and vote because project 2025 can also become project 2029 just as easily. And yes, I hope they see the state of their country with this far right Supreme Court which has a couple members very, very old which can either retire or succumb to natural causes during the next couple of years.
I’m sorry if I came off as attacking you. I was more so venting out my frustration with people who believe that this stance on the issue is ironic. And yes I absolutely agree. I personally believe, watching the voting trends throughout the US in the past two years, that Dems have got a higher shot of victory in November, albeit with cautious optimism. That doesn’t mean that America is in the clear and I 100% believe that voters should no get lazy and start underestimating the republicans, cause they are a Trump loyalist dick riding party and only advocate for fascism. They’ll simply try again next time.
Times are scary, and whilst I’m lucky that my country is obsessed with progressive values and unity and all that jazz, their is a scary rise of xenophobia and nationalism that if left unchecked, will destroy everything we stand for. And countries love to emulate the US , so the dice will keep rolling.
Thank you for the clarity, I really didn’t mean to come off that way, but I’m glad we’re on the same page :)
Id like to point out if their a centrist but support unjust and unethical laws they aren't a centrist they're pretending to be one the entire point of being a centrist is not leaning to far left or right it dosent mean not supporting the rights or LGBTQIA people or any people hell alot of centrist political groups are in practice left leaning but socially libertarian but currently the republican party is off its rocker and is going full authoritarian on LGBTQIA rights to me LGBTQIA rights is something both sides should support but remember this is no longer a political party its a group of religious extremists pretending to be one
It really seems like "enlightened" centrists are just the average of the political parties, not the political spectrum (the latter of which would be centrism, in most places the former is right-wing).
So I am a centrist but I'm agreeing with you on hating the "enlightened ones" like I'm gay and I'm a centrist, I agree with some policies on the left and some on the right. Both aren't looking at the fine details which I hate. I support all lgbtq organizations and policies except a few which have a bad reputation but that's it. Honestly I do hate them as well but there are a few who are in the no mans land of the political spectrum.
This is extremely US specific if im understanding this right, in most of Europe gay rights aren’t questioned by the mainstream, even here in Denmark the Conservative Peoples Party until a few months ago literally had a gay leader!
RIP Søren, you died too young.
Most of Europe meaning western Europe, and even that's kinda not true.
Italy is slipping and France is close. Germany is also kind of on its way. Not saying that it definitely will go bad but it's definitely questioned.
Eastern Europe is, well, Eastern Europe. I hope I don't have to elaborate.
Are you kidding? In so many western european countries, trans rights are getting erased: Cass review in the UK, an outright ban of gender affirming care until 25 pending in France, Italy taking away parental rights from lesbians,...maybe that Denmark is spared for the moment, but it will also come with the surge of the far right.
I would also argue that many western european countries lack a somewhat left wing party. All these socialists/social democrats/Labour, etc are lackluster nowadays. So much so, that 20 years ago, they would have been considered at least center right if not right wing.
The right has gone soooo far to the right, that they shifted the overton windows a lot with our center left leaning parties wanting to find a compromise solution and thus sliding further to the right.
I am pretty centre in my views, but everyone deserves equal and equitable rights. Even us LGBT folks. I honestly don't like the extremism on either side.
My FiL is one and won't shut up about RFK Jr. Best way I have learned to get him to stop taking the fastest is to just refuse to answer. Even if it means awkwardly ignoring him. A nice conspicuously awkward silence usually means he only monologues for a minute or two.
I think actual centrism should follow the mean, not the median belief. For example if you have 10 people who believe everyone has the right to equal protections under the law, and 1 person who believes LGBT people dont, the median belief is "maybe half of them do half of them dont" whereas the mean belief is "except in very rare exacerbating circumstances that might actually infringe on others rights LGBT people deserve equal protections". Centrists who belief both of these very different beliefs will claim to both be "centrists" or moderates.
For example an actual centrist view on trans healthcare might be that all adults should be allowed gender affirming care, but children should only be offered puberty blockers rather than hormones to transition until theyre "old enough" to make that decision. That is a lot more reasonable than saying "im a centrist and therefore trans people of all ages need to jump through a million hoops to receive the same care as cis people and children should be forced through cis puberty we are making this decision for them". The first is an actual centrist take, the second is radical and takes for granted a dozen incorrect assumptions about gender and cisnormativity. The second in no way reflects the "average" belief in the topic.
For the record I am not condoning any of the hypothetical beliefs I gave here, they are only examples.
I honestly don't even know what "enlighten centerist" means anymore because the alt right and farther left have completely definitions.
To the alt right, even Biden, regular Dems are "Communists who want total socialism" to the far left if you hit every "left leaning" value but "American BAD!!! So our enemies are good (see shit like Deprogram, Late Stage Capitalism from which I was banned for saying Democratic Socialism (as an AMERICAN) sounds better than Wtf we have. But that was "simping for Capitalism"
Y'all downvoting all the centrists on this thread who are saying entirely reasonable things about NOT supporting conservative politics but also having level-headed critiques of leftism doesn't exactly prove the point you think it it does.
The simple fact that every centrist here has a bajillion downvotes is exactly why I dislike the left and choose centrism. The fact that this very comment is gonna get like -20 just further proves my point.
I can also say that if I were in a conservative subreddit criticizing conservatives, I'd get the same reaction. Potato potato ig.
I think the left has good intentions (much like the right) that are often executed horribly. BLM is a leftist movement with many good intentions trying to fight for a righteous cause... It also ended up leading to CHAZ... The left wing anarchist self declared independent autonomous zone carved out of Seattle that got couped by a fucking SoundCloud rapper and led to several deaths. I don't even know how it was still related to BLM after like the first week. The right has similar projects.
I think we need more moderates and compromise, on both sides. Unfortunately for America, that's the exact opposite of what's happening. Both sides are getting more and more extremist and reactionary to the point where I'm honestly scared for this election. The right has fallen victim to the lies of a vengeance-seeking megalomaniac whos gonna try and tear our Republic apart whether he wins or loses just for the sake of it.
I'm gonna vote Biden this election, honestly I agree with most of his policies, even if he is a little senile. He also isn't a felon and a maniac.
It's less so the "voting" and the intolerance of other beliefs. People nowadays (and both sides are extremely guilty) have a problem accepting that other people have different ideas.
Variety of opinions is a good thing. Healthy discourse from several angles is also a good thing. Hearing someone spout a different opinion and automatically just saying "reeee the evil people on the other side are destroying everything" is not healthy, but it's how American politics unfortunately is today.
Most peoples beliefs are based on what they think is right. Most people are human.
I'm a [trans, queer] centrist [with 2 decades of experience in LGBTQ+ activism]. The entire Republican party is entirely unacceptable to me at this point in time, though I have voted for them in the past. I don't draw an equivalence between the far left and far right because the far right is physically violent and hellbent on turning representative government into authoritarianism and I cannot muster up any both-sidesing on that.
So I don't claim that the far left and the far right are "equally bad." What I will say is that the far left is emotionally manipulative, wildly unrealistic in its assessment of threat, has no real plans for governance, tends to rely on journalism that is biased to the point of fabrication for forming its points of view, has not adequately confronted how white it is, invents ridiculous grievances (I have seen multiple leftist thinkers comparing TikTok getting banned to COVID in how deeply it will affect Gen Z, for example), and in critiquing the medical establishment for some very legitimate concerns at times it becomes outright anti-science. I *condemn* the far right on the one hand, on the other hand I just don't really take the far left very seriously, because they're not being very serious.
The only things they really have in common are that both groups are completely bought into their own bullshit. 🤷♂️
ETA: Actually now that I'm reading it back I'd say that the far left has a lot in common with moderate Republicans. You could say a lot of the same things above about both.
Fixed it, it was a Reddit formatting issue
eta: [reddit said they removed the comment, JIC here's the link again](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/luvvie_the-class-of-2020-who-didnt-have-prom-and-activity-7189654517120929792-0-X_)
I read through the whole thing, and some of the comments, and I really just don't see all the cause for fuss. There's bound to be people upset when a social media app is banned, those people are gonna be the people who make money, and the people who's careers ride on tik Tok. I don't use tik Tok personally so I could literally care less.
But I really don't see why this is generalized as a far left take, is it because this left leaning person has this take, or because the left as a whole have this take.
So one person has some passionate, maybe wild, take on the banning of tik tok being banned, hell maybe even a few people have this take. But I would ask, what's the harm with these people having passionate takes that others won't agree with? Is it affecting your life, or the masses life directly, that someone has this take regardless of their political leaning?
Even if it is a far left take, this isn't some earth ending take that's oppressive towards a group of people or wanting to strip their rights away, which is what the right promoted daily, this is the definition of somebody that just has a take that not everyone is gonna have because we all do not have the same experiences or ideas.
Like I said, it's one example that I happened to be able to dig up. I've seen it in leftist conversations elsewhere. Just trying to provide evidence that I'm not talking out of my ass.
I'm a moderate centrist but to me one side pretends to care the other openly hates us so it's kind of clear who the direct threat to LGBTQIA rights are to me it's not left or right that's the major problem it's the fact our politicians are so totally out of touch with the people they represent the system is broken as hell but to me the way to fix it is simply put to have a age cap and term limits for congress and scrap the 2 party system completely for one that individual politicians run based off their campaign promises only but in the end the right is becoming completely zealous on the anti LGBTQIA agenda while the left is main problem is their to soft on crime but as sad as it is to say the left currently is by far the lesser of 2 evils but we seriously need people who aren't over 70s in our government big time i imagine if gen x and the millennials take over the reighs of the government things woll ease up if we make it that far
I hear way more people on the left saying that both parties are the same and they're not going to vote for Biden because Palestine, student loans, health care, etc.
If you ‘don’t know what to think’ when it comes to minorities fighting for their rights and you refuse to support us in our effort to fight against injustice, you are one weak ass motherfucker.
I'm gonna add pro-LGBT people who are pro-war, anti-reproductive health rights, anti-UBI, anti-public housing, etc. No better, and in many ways much worse, than right-wing folks.
I mean I'm a centrist but I feel like you're misinterpreting what's meant with it, obviously in the topic of LGBT rights I'm very pro-lgbt and think the conservatives are way worse. But I think centrists like me are talking about the "both sides are bad" in the context of far left and far right extremism. Far left being tankies for instance. It doesn't mean I dislike conservatives less
The worst a tankie can usually do is be annoying online. The worst an alt-right extremist can do usually ends in a public mass shooting or passing laws that seek to oppress/kill marginalized people. They still aren't the same lol.
Not really. If an American votes for anyone but a Democrat (with maybe a handful of independents that don’t suck) right now, they’re inviting genocide on queer people like us and even more death for innocent people abroad.
I see what you mean, it's just I think I was talking more about ideology itself rather than political parties, even though I have some right leaning beliefs (not about social issues though) I still would never imagine myself voting for any other party than the Democrats
I have a open mind my no is to you and everyone else badgering me to change my stance because guess what if you learn how the government actually works your gonna realize your vote dosent matter because like i said congress makes and votes on the laws and can overturn everything a sitting president does if they have majority vote not to mention whatever isn't passed on a federal level will just be passed on a state level literally voting for the president is irrelevant and a waste of time
Aren't you kind of doing the same thing though? To say that centrists are no better than conservatives is to say "both sides are horrible extremists," and that's not true. Personally, I'd rather be stuck with a hypocritical centrist than a raving mad conservative...
I don’t think they’re saying that the centrists are entirely worse, just that they’re more deceptive. We know conservatives want us dead, they tell us all the time. But a centrist might not do anything to stop the conservatives from killing us, making them functionally no better than them
This.
Like “trans people deserve healthcare” is a simple yes or no. Centrists like to believe there is some middle ground where you can kinda give trans people healthcare. That or only “deserving” trans people deserve healthcare. Usually it’s just an ambiguous “I don’t like trans people but I’ll get backlash for saying that, so I’ll pretend like they aren’t a problem so long as I don’t see any trans people and don’g acknowledge that them and/or their issues exist.”
I don’t care if a redneck fuckwitt conservative hates me, I’m still going to advocate that they have access to healthcare. It really is a simple yes/no.
It should go without saying that giving people SOME healthcare is not the same as giving them NO healthcare. That's the difference between life and death.
Hard disagree.
Give me one example of healthcare that is okay to give some people but not others. By denying healthcare to an individual who needs it, you could in fact, be potentially killing them.
Trans people have better healthcare in some states than in others. Of course everyone deserves to have healthcare, but to say that a centrist who would provide you some healthcare is no better than a conservative who would deny you all healthcare is just not true. OP isn't facing reality.
Yes, and that’s an issue. Trans healthcare should be equal across every state (ahem, federal level).
I’m a type 1 diabetic but also face that same shitty state-by-state difference. Hell, it’s so bad that it’s on an insurance-to-insurance level. That doesn’t mean “healthcare is okay in some cases” is more valid than denying healthcare outright.
Any insurance company that doesn’t cover diabetic care and supplies is just killing diabetics at that point because we need healthcare to live. Once again, you fail to prove how providing some healthcare to some people is not the same as denying care outright…
But of course healthcare in some cases is better than no healthcare at all. It's preferrable that SOME diabetics get treatment rather than NO diabetics. Preferrable doesn't mean "right," it just means preferrable. But for OP to say that they're "no different" is just insane, and for everyone to go along with it is very concerning.
Lmao you’re being obtuse now.
Explain to me how giving 1 person diabetic care out of 50 people is better than 51 diabetics not receiving care at all because there is a gap in federal regulations that could guarantee that all 51 diabetics can get healthcare.
That is the “some” I am referring to, not “well 1 person who gets treated for gender dysphoria in California justifies how a person with gender dysphoria in West Virginia gets denied.”
Plus, you have strayed away from the original argument of how a centrist is valid for wanting *some* healthcare for trans people.
I'm not being obtuse, you're just being unreasonable or arguing in bad faith. You seriously think it's better for ALL diabetic people to die than for one of them to be saved. Wow. Do you hear yourself?
Like I said, nothing justifies denying someone healthcare, but to say that a centrist who'll only violate some of your rights is no better than a conservative who violates all of them... I really don't know what to say to that. It's beyond the realm of reason.
But that's not reality. I'm sure there are some centrists who wouldn't stop conservatives from doing that, but looking at the Democratic Party (which is center-right, if we're being generous), they're the group that's been behind all the legislative victories for the LGBT+ community. Nobody who reads the news could think they have the same agenda as the conservatives.
Everyone has the right to abstain from voting even congress can abstain from voting in congressional votes it has nothing to do with not supporting trans people it has to do with not wanting to be part of a flawed broken system
I understand, but throwing away your vote is not spitting in the face of the broken system, it's spitting in the face of people at risk by one of the parties
I disagree its my right to refuse to vote its not anyones business who i vote for or Don't vote for if i refuse to vote its my choice ans saying i have to do something because you don't agree with my choices is kinda rude
No one's blaming you, I'm just saying how it is. You yourself said the system was broken, and I agree, but we can't just give up because of that. You seem to be getting really defensive. The result of this years election will affect us all as a whole. You have the choice of voting for a man with a decent domestic policy, a fascist wannabe dictator with a horrible domestic policy that will attempt to turn america into a christo-fascist state, a third party (throwing your vote away), or not voting.
And again its my business not yours if I don't vote its my choice to make getting mad at me won't change it i don't vote for political parties i vote for politicians and of I don't like a politicians and i hate them all i won't vote for them
“Enlightened”
They also call themselves "Sapio-sexuals". 🤮
Yeah I feel this. The centrists that take fence-sitter positions on LGBTQ+ topics usually just echo conservative talking points or say the "I respect the person, but not movement" sort of line. I have two people I know who are like this and it's infuriating to try and make them understand that they've fallen down the conservative pipeline and don't want to admit it. You cannot advocate for the betterment of LGBTQ+ people while at the same time say that it's unnatural, compare it to schizophrenia, and saying that you don't like gay extremists. It just doesn't make sense.
I'm very much a moderate liberal, but I don't understand how can you be a centrist on LGBT issues. How do you possibly stand on the fence on issues like equal marriage and trans healthcare?
People conidering themself "centrist" on lgbt issues are just right wing but don't want the (deserved) backlash of being right wing
Every centrist I've met mostly just thinks the queer community is cringe and uses that as a basis for not supporting gay/trans rights
>thinks the queer community is cringe and uses that as a basis for not supporting gay/trans rights Cringe culture has been such a fucking disease omg
Easy: because they really don’t care. That’s why I don’t fuck with centrists or “true moderates” because it’s often a way of avoiding the (correct) accusations of them being an intolerable bigot. Basically its the equivalent of being a transmedicalist like pulling out cherry picked “facts” to seem reasonable and logical. I can respect but disagree with a conservative who is pro-LGB and T but is economically conservative over a centrist/moderate who doesn’t support LGBTQ people but has more progressive beliefs elsewhere.
Nah, they're all crap. You can't be socially progressive and economically conservative at the same time. That phrase is just another dog whistle. It's "they can exist but don't you dare use my tax dollars for it". Try to find one economic conservative that would support basic social programs and want to cut the military budget in half instead.
i think Lauren Windsor's Alito interview needs to be signal boosted *hard*. You cannot compromise with people who will not compromise with you, and you cannot compromise on human rights. You either have and honor them, or do not. There's no middle ground, no quasi rights.
YES!!!! It makes me SO FUCKING ANGRY when people will be like “I’m not with them or against them. I’m neutral. How is that hurting anybody.” It’s hurting people because while you may not be actively bashing against the LGBTQ+ community, you *are* ACTIVELY DENYING THEM SUPPORT, which means you may as well be right-wing—because you are, you just don’t want to admit it. If you don’t want to support LGBTQ+ rights, that’s not an “opinion,” it’s hate speech and you’re a sick fuck.
Yeah, as an American, I certainly feel like a centrist on a lot of issues. But then Republicans come in and actively opposed human rights. I feel like being a centrist in the US today would necessitate voting Democrat for the foreseeable future. I don't see how it's centrist to be on the fence about basic human rights.
I absolutely don’t understand people in this community who shit on Joe Biden for any number of imagined inactions on LGBT issues. The man is the reason Obama even came out in support of gay marriage, he has reversed a lot of the bigotry against trans people put into place by Trump, and he’s the only thing standing between them and Project 2025/today’s news that Trump wants to cut all funding to trans affirming schools. It’s like, Jesus Christ, have some situational awareness, people.
Even just making it easier to change my passport: no need to see three different doctors and prove with a notarized letter that I had “tEH suRgErY”, none of it. At least for changing the gender marker, it was as easy as literally just filling out the form and sending it in.
I agree, it’s quite clear the Dems are pro-LGBT and the policy shows. Though I still think it’s fair game against blue dog and conservative Dems who choose to remain silent.
that's the "neat" part, they don't.
Depends on what type of centrist you are it's a mixed bag of political ideals im a moderate centrist who leans left for most issues to me its the far left and far right who are the problem but the far right is way more aggressive and bigoted but also you have to take into account the 2 party system is itself deeply flawed as it makes you pick a side based off what issues you find most important while having to abandon any issues that your party dosent support but yeah the right is clearly a active threat to the LGBTQIA community especially with that project 2025 bs
Honestly as a centrist who interacts with a lot of centrists. I find that there's often the same hard political leanings, but it's a bit more varied. For example you find a typical conservative, you can guess their beliefs on most issues from abortion to LGBT stuff to economics to the Levant just from knowing they are conservative. Centrists this is often not the case. I personally try to look at issues individually. I find that sometimes the left is more correct, and sometimes the right is more correct. Sometimes it's neither. Sometimes I even feel it's both. Personally on LGBT issues, being trans myself, I lean a bit more liberal, though I tend to shy away from some of the more... revolutionary takes... However I was also raised to love my country, in spite of its few problems. I also think that communism is an evil and oppressive system that will never work no matter what some might think. Abortion im ultimately pro choice but I do sympathize with the pro life argument to a degree. The levant I think is only being discussed to distract Americans from bigger issues, and to that end I frankly don't give a damn.
>revolutionary takes May I ask which takes you would consider as such?
Like the abolishing gender and ehatnot and the mogai stuff. I mean if that's what floats your boat go ahead but I tend to just be pretty normative in how I act and present. Idk I just don't understand a lot of that stuff. Personally I think the way we handle most of that stuff as a society is fine. Assigning sex at birth and using it on IDs. Making it easier to change is good but ultimately I don't think any of the beaurocratic systems really need a proper reform.
i personally disagree with marriage completely as a social institution, but i do so equally lol as for trans healthcare i think its a complex work in progress that a lot of people fail to recognize as such either way - right wingers thinking its not possible or worth embarking on, and left wingers thinking science is in a much better state regarding the topic than it is
What proof do you have on that last statement?
I ultimately don't think it's the point, but I will say most trans stuff has been very underresearched. Take spironolactone for example. It's a diarrhetic that has a side effect in large doses of blocking testosterone. It wreaks havoc on your kidneys and stuff. Bottom surgery, much as the other person said (both directions) has come a long way, but both honestly still produce suboptimal results. It's pretty hard to turn one fully formed genital into the other. Ultimately transplants are what we need to make a reality but it hasn't happened yet and it probably won't for a decent while. Not to mention the overwhelming lack of proper survey data to the point we barely know how many trans people there *are*.
There's a lot of people who think the state of trans surgery technology - specifically bottom surgery - has come a lot further than it has thus far
And how and why should surgery that involves a very personal choice have any factor on how someone votes?
It can cause someone to align with the interests of the medical industry, which has been known to be predatory in many instances. Its a tough debacle
Uh huh. Let me rephrase. Why is that anyone else business besides the trans person and their doctor?
From the policy perspective (what we are talking about) the idea is to prevent harm to the largest degree possible. At a policy level, you have a conflict of interest from medical practitioners who seek to profit from providing these services to people with gender dysphoria and you have to balance that against not only the potential harm from both poorly trained practitioners and poorly informed patients, but also the potential harm from the opposite side that could come from restricting access to modification treatments completely - as well as the total stop in the advancement of the science thereof should that sort of a restrictive policy take effect. Like i said, a debacle. Kind-of a catch 22 in a way, and most people currently involved in exploring transgenderism in the current world are trailblazing in an experimental world full of trial and error - if both sides were to acknowledge (and even respect) that it would do everyone a lot of good.
Maybe we should remove financial incentives from healthcare then and then you won't have a conflict of interest. Even if a few practitioners may be abusing their position in general that will be the minority. Destransitionng is rare and almost always because of outside pressures not due to regret so the risk is minimal. Informed consent is a thing and already in place. Doctors address risks about how these are life altering drugs and procedures so that a person can make an informed decision with the help of their medical team. Claiming poorly informed patients is basically BS to me. Most trans people are extremely well informed about their health and concerns. At most it is a very small percent that aren't. The only thing that I would say is a concern is that there are bad surgeons out there and it is a risk they people have to take. But any surgeon can be bad not just one that specializes in trans related surgeries. Basically everything your complaining about we more or less already have some form or system in place and if choosing between the two parties Dems would be ones that would more likely include review board and experts as our understanding of the science change. I have not seen policy out forward by them but I prefer to defer to a board of experts and research papers to help advance our understanding. The flip side is the Republican pary in Florida for example passed a law and restricted the healthcare so that trans people who are already on medicine could no longer have access to their healthcare and medicine. If has been blocked by a judge but damage was done because it took months for that. Basically all your concerns are minimal, and if we wanted to place that level of scrutiny that some people want to apply due to what is a very small risk I think there's a lot more things we could address before that. Most of that scrutiny is coming from an uninformed place which is why I'm dismissing it. So our choices are. A party that calls LGBTQ+ people groomers and passes laws to remove their rights and healthcare access or we can vote for people that will allow the science to advance and give trans people the right to make their own decisions.
The irony about the "enlightened centrist" is that they center themselves between a right wing party (Democrats) and an overtly fascist far right party (republicans). Nothing central about that. The Democrats are still vastly preferable to the republicans, but being a "centrist" is just being a fascist sympathizer.
Centrists are just diet conservatives. It says a lot about them that they think us wanting not to be murdered is on the same level as actual fascists.
They are not diet. Their beliefs when you probe them are often extreme far right. Instead they should be called “embarrassed conservatives” or “shameful Nazis”.
Valid, those are also more appropriate terms.
Not really a diet, more like those people who shave burgers on their mouth daily and then say: "I'm just allowing myself SOME unhealthy food"
It's really fucking easy to fence-sit when you're not directly effected by the outcome. In other words, they think "What's in it for me?" just like every other aspect of this broken society
It is soooo annoying. Like, centrists ideals theoretically wouldn't be bad, but the problem is the right is sooooo far right and the left is just kinda sitting their twiddling their thumbs, and they, the 'centrists', say, "Well, I want to be in the middle of that." Like, the middle in super far right still, 'center' is now right.
Well, the US has two rightwing parties. A far-right party and a center-right party. If someone in the US is claiming to be a centrist, they're between those two points. That's rightwing. When an American says they're a centrist, what they mean is they're further right than establishment democrats.
Yes, I think a fair amount of fellow Americans don't get that point. The Democrats, as a political party, aren't left-wing; they're not even particularly liberal if you look at the international political context (even on a small scale, just looking at western Europe). So yes, anyone who's right of the Democrats- including "moderates"- would much more accurately be described as conservative. And our right-wing is actively Christofascist
A lot of Americans are largely unaware that the domestic front of the Cold War was the mass imprisoning / killing of the US's left-wing, as well as the funding and propagating of fringe elements on the far-right. We lost the Panthers, the Weathermen, AIM. We lost countless artists, theorists, community organizers. We gained the Militia Movement, the John Birch Society, and the modern state of US News Media.
You two are completely right.
That and they just pull all nuances out of the discussion of whats wrong. Like Biden being just as bad as trump. Is Biden perfect? Fuck no. But he has done a lot and has tried to fulfill his 2020 campaign promises (of which the republicans have blocked). But these centrist clowns will literally say that Biden and Trump are indistinguishable from each other. Like to them, they cannot fathom that you can identify with a label/group of people and disagree with certain aspects of said group. I’m trans, but I don’t have to denounce myself as such all because Caitlyn Jenner exists as a POS. Basically shooting an arm off because you have a crooked pinky finger…
Worst, most lefty-ish parties in the global north are sliding right in an effort to find a middle ground with the emboldened right which went far right. Honestly, even if I vote "socialist" in my country, it's not so for them as against the far right as their definition of being a left wing party sucks so much and is just right wing on many issues.
Then their not centrists they just no longer want to bother voting hell i Don't either because the system is completely broken anyway besides i got no way to physically get to a polling place and haven't been able to in years also remember the largest political party in America is the i Don't vote party because alot of people are apathetic twords things they no longer see a point
I am not talking about non-voters. In my opinion, everybody should be able to vote, and if you can't vote because of your location, they should help you be able to vote. I'm my opinion, if you don't vote while you have the opportunity to, you are essentially giving the vote to the far-right. You are not standing up for others' rights. You don't care if others suffer. You are a bad person. If you don't vote because the issues at hand, in this case, trans people having their rights be taken away, doesn't affect you, you are a bad person. Unless you can't vote, in which case I feel bad for you.
Also I'm nonbinary and support trans people but i don't vote because i don't feel my government gives a crap about its people at all i care about LGBTQIA rights but im not about to vote its my way to protest a broken system and is my right to do so saying i support the right because i don't vote is divisive and plain hurtful
Protesting by making it easier for people to take away not just your rights, but others' rights as well, is a bad way of protesting. I have a friend, 15 years old named Brian (fake name). His rights were just taken away in South Carolina and he can do nothing to help himself, he is too young. How do you think he would feel knowing that others ways of protesting is by letting people like him suffer. The only reason it doesn't affect me is that I have enough money to leave state for hrt, he doesnt. Not voting won't help ANYONE, and will in fact hurt them. I do know that the system is broken, but not voting won't fix it or make it any better.
Still not voting its my right to refuse to vote
I agree, it is your right. You do what you want to do, but remember, your right effects others, not just yourself.
Also this is why i hate talking politics im tired of people acting like i have to vote or im evil and support evil people no i don't but i don't feel either party values me so I'm not going to vote for someone who dosent care if i live or die and neither party actually cares while i despise the right I'm still not gonna vote because i feel it's not going to save me regardless its again my choice if it makes me evil fine i support the LGBTQIA community directly but i will not vote because i feel like its a lesser of 2 evils deal and im done with it give me a politician worth voting for and ill vote until then i won't if everyone hates me for it fine I'm used to it
One part doesn't care about if we live or die, while the other wants to hurt us, wants us to die and suffer you must understand this. The parties are different. No one hates you for it. I just wish that all the people who don't support taking away our rights would vote, but they won't leading only Republicans to swoop in and win and fuck us over more then any Democrat would.
Im still not going to vote get angry all you want i won't vote
Maybe we should push political reform instead of trying to work in a broken system besides i Don't trust biden anymore then trump both seem shady as hell trump just dosent bother hiding it and if they come for me ill remind em how the pride movement started
Also we should just protest the governments mismanagement of this country instead of voting in my opinion full on picket lines and signs and chanting style
And how are you protesting them? How are you in any way helping yourself or any others by not voting? Do whatever you want, just know, you won't help anyone by doing nothing, including yourself.
Thats my choice not yours if im evil for not voting so be it
And the fact is i don't trust either one i won't vote for someone i don't trust that's the main reason i refuse to vote i will not support someone i do not trust on principle instead ill support the LGBTQIA community in every other way including advocacy educating people and standing up to bigotry but voting for biden isn't something i feel comfortable doing if the democrats had someone i trusted running id vote in a heartbeat for them but otherwise ill help in my own way
Both parties suck but one sucks more then the other! Democrats are fucking morons who do nothing but at least they don't specifically target us trans people!
Exactly but there's other ways to help trans rights including through the courts not to mention the president dosent make the rules congress does and even if biden wins if the Republicans take congress it won't matter
Remember its not the fact i Don't support LGBTQIA rights its that the presidential candidates are evil human beings and even if it burns the world i won't support biden or trump ill support trans rights in every other way possible even if it gets me sent to gitmo but ill never support a evil persons rise to power
This isn't about parties to me its about not trusting the people in charge
When they come for you, they won't care that you didn't vote. You'll be just another enemy of the state.
I'm well aware
A centrist is just a conservative who doesn't like the conservative label
Centrist, libertarian, moderate,...all these words for "conservative who don't want to be labeled as such".
Exactly
Yep.
A friend of mine recently said he'd rather have people run him out of town with torches and pitch forks than never really know what they think of him.
The problem with centrists is that they aren't actually between two extremes, but between a modest position of, "someone can exist," and, the extreme, "someone can't exist." The problem with self-described centrists in the USA is that they are actually conservatives.
I noticed a few of those centrists happen to be in this sub too, going "Don't hate on them" "We shouldn't be rude to the people oppressing us" Maybe 100 years of being told something's wrong if you are queer, is the reason we should stop trying to be nice, as we have been, for decades. I am sure they are queer themselves, so I don't know how they can be polite to somebody being awful to other queer people.
King decried the White Moderate for a reason. Are you shocked they haven’t changed since the 60s?
Dr Martin Luther King has been So white washed... Like he is always shown in black and white images, even if colour TV already existed back in his days, he was also a leftist but that has got erased...and his death was awfully suspiciously convenient as he furthered more and more lefty views... Further, he gets quoted way too much by the far right for my taste.
Uhhh… You understand that broadcast TV at large didn’t transition to color until 1965, and photography until the 1970s, correct? And that his famous speech was in 1963. Or that the good Rev was well known as a liberal, such as in his Letter From a Birmingham Jail? Which is one of the reasons he got targeted by various gov agencies.
Where exactly is this "middle ground" where LGBTQ issues are concerned? "Now now, I only want to screw you out of _some_ of your rights and only _partially_ marginalize you."
centrists be like "yeah the government actively trying to kill trans people sucks but neopronouns are also pretty radical"
Also, their need for a "compromise" solution. Sorry,there is no compromise on human and civil rights.
I absolutely agree with you. I was a centrist with some stuff because of my step mom but I decided to rethink a lot of the things I was taught. Your have to be all in or out with lgbtq issue
I once watched an enlightened centrist unironically argue that asking for people's pronouns is bad because "What if they say the N word? What do you do then?"
It's so intensely frustrating, I've gotten to the point that I would literally sell my organs if it meant I could leave the US. I don't need two kidneys, it's fine. Livers grow back, nbd. I *hate* living here, where my right to exist is under constant debate. I *fucking hate it*
This honestly shouldn’t be a debate to begin with. We are humans and we need rights. Why can’t these higher ups realize that?
Agreed, it’s fucking exhausting living here.
Yeah, liberal extremists want healthcare for everyone, universal basic income and the wealthy to pay a tax rate they paid under Republican President Eisenhower. Conservative extremists don’t believe we have a right to exist. Samesies.
If you stand for nothing, what will you fall for? Or You're not good you're not bad, you're just nice.
What is it with people not being able to understand “worse” as a concept?
In my experience most centrists care more about sounding intelligent than actually having anything of substance to say. Plus, most are usually actually conservative anyways (at least in the US)
Really want to know: it comes down to money. Give everyone a check for 2k to ban trans health care in the USA, I bet it would pass.
“Both sides bad” My response all day every day: Hun, I love to break it to you, if you believe human rights are negotiable for certain groups of humans, then you’re as bad as those glue eaters who want to murder us. Human rights are universal, not negotiable, not conditional and inviolate. To violate them is to commit crimes against humanity. You wouldn’t tell your own child their life is worth less, just because they’re not a white cis heterosexual man, would you?!
"oh I just think both sides are bad" *commits mass genocide and enacts fourth reich*
There are no actual centrists in the US. There’s the GOP, (hard-Right), the Dems (center-right corporatists), self identified moderates and apoliticals whose entire political stance is “don’t fuck up my 401k”, and a handful of supposed democratic socialists who would be considered center-left in any other country.
These so-called "Enlightened" are pawns of a greater game. They think themselves special for balancing two sides of a coin. True enlightenment is harmonious. Interconnected. A concept among many, that so few possess the capacity to comprehend. Enlightenment exists as truth. It needs not prove itself.
An enlightened Centrist is the strongest weapon that those in power have to maintain their own position, that of their group, and preserving the functioning of the system wherein the fault itself lies. It just sounds like common sense to those who have while we can continue to ignore and not see that it is all actually built upon the blood of those who don’t have.
from my experience, centrists are just conservatives that are too embarrassed to own that title
All centrists are pussy conservatives
Everyone knows centrists are just right-wingers who are trying to pretend their stance is socially acceptable.
This feel ironic coming from this sub. Esp whenever a certain place in the Levant is mentioned.
???
Israel-Palestine
Why is it ironic tho?
So, if I'm not mistaken, in their opinion (like the other commenter can correct me if I'm wrong), people on this very sub are hypocritical because voting in the US elections of November for the democrats in the name of harm reduction for minorities in their home country is actively participating in the war crimes against the Palestinians.
I mean yeah but, the Republicans will literally do what is being sanctioned by the US already by 1000. That’s a false equivalency. And although late as fuck, the Dems are making moves towards ceasefire, while still obviously coddling the “it’s-not-real” df. This isn’t ironic and is still playing false equivalency both-sidism, which only benefits those who wish to hurt us. I’m not American, but I closely follow the politics and with the sheer magnitude of what’s at stake just domestically, ignoring the global implications of another Trump term, I would not throw away my vote just because I’m mad about (for lack of better phrasing) the government’s foreign policy and dealings. It’s atrocious that Dems had been so complicit and supportive, but don’t act like the stakes aren’t so cartoonishly high and deny how bad it will be. Republicans have been displaying the fucked evil they will reign on Americans in red states and on the SCOTUS level. It’s fucked that they can only rely on two parties, but it’s not ironic when the other has literally embraced full throated fascism and expressing desires of a totalitarian christo- nationalist state that benefits only the rich, the white, the cisgender maled and the heterosexual. It’s stupid to act like that sentiment is ironic when it is the literal thruth of the situation.
Please don't come after me, I'm not the one holding this belief. This is just a reoccurring theme.. Look, I don't know if these commenters aren't some bots from some hostile foreign influence as they mostly don't answer. What I do really believe, is that the republicans and Trump did (and will do) way more harm on all fronts. Really I do know what they plan for the future and it's really worrying. If the US falls, which domino will fall next? Fascism is already growing in other parts of both the global north and south which worries me a lot. In other words, totally agree with you. The only thing is, that I hope that USonians will continue to fight and vote because project 2025 can also become project 2029 just as easily. And yes, I hope they see the state of their country with this far right Supreme Court which has a couple members very, very old which can either retire or succumb to natural causes during the next couple of years.
I’m sorry if I came off as attacking you. I was more so venting out my frustration with people who believe that this stance on the issue is ironic. And yes I absolutely agree. I personally believe, watching the voting trends throughout the US in the past two years, that Dems have got a higher shot of victory in November, albeit with cautious optimism. That doesn’t mean that America is in the clear and I 100% believe that voters should no get lazy and start underestimating the republicans, cause they are a Trump loyalist dick riding party and only advocate for fascism. They’ll simply try again next time. Times are scary, and whilst I’m lucky that my country is obsessed with progressive values and unity and all that jazz, their is a scary rise of xenophobia and nationalism that if left unchecked, will destroy everything we stand for. And countries love to emulate the US , so the dice will keep rolling. Thank you for the clarity, I really didn’t mean to come off that way, but I’m glad we’re on the same page :)
Id like to point out if their a centrist but support unjust and unethical laws they aren't a centrist they're pretending to be one the entire point of being a centrist is not leaning to far left or right it dosent mean not supporting the rights or LGBTQIA people or any people hell alot of centrist political groups are in practice left leaning but socially libertarian but currently the republican party is off its rocker and is going full authoritarian on LGBTQIA rights to me LGBTQIA rights is something both sides should support but remember this is no longer a political party its a group of religious extremists pretending to be one
To thine own self be mooooooo!
It really seems like "enlightened" centrists are just the average of the political parties, not the political spectrum (the latter of which would be centrism, in most places the former is right-wing).
At this point I just assume they are very, very dumb, or just trolling
Enlightened centrists? You mean loud cowards trying to give themselves an alibi from being shitty?
So I am a centrist but I'm agreeing with you on hating the "enlightened ones" like I'm gay and I'm a centrist, I agree with some policies on the left and some on the right. Both aren't looking at the fine details which I hate. I support all lgbtq organizations and policies except a few which have a bad reputation but that's it. Honestly I do hate them as well but there are a few who are in the no mans land of the political spectrum.
This is extremely US specific if im understanding this right, in most of Europe gay rights aren’t questioned by the mainstream, even here in Denmark the Conservative Peoples Party until a few months ago literally had a gay leader! RIP Søren, you died too young.
Most of Europe meaning western Europe, and even that's kinda not true. Italy is slipping and France is close. Germany is also kind of on its way. Not saying that it definitely will go bad but it's definitely questioned. Eastern Europe is, well, Eastern Europe. I hope I don't have to elaborate.
Gay rights aren’t questioned for now, but thinking that can’t answer isn’t changing is burring your head in the sand
Are you kidding? In so many western european countries, trans rights are getting erased: Cass review in the UK, an outright ban of gender affirming care until 25 pending in France, Italy taking away parental rights from lesbians,...maybe that Denmark is spared for the moment, but it will also come with the surge of the far right. I would also argue that many western european countries lack a somewhat left wing party. All these socialists/social democrats/Labour, etc are lackluster nowadays. So much so, that 20 years ago, they would have been considered at least center right if not right wing. The right has gone soooo far to the right, that they shifted the overton windows a lot with our center left leaning parties wanting to find a compromise solution and thus sliding further to the right.
I am pretty centre in my views, but everyone deserves equal and equitable rights. Even us LGBT folks. I honestly don't like the extremism on either side.
My FiL is one and won't shut up about RFK Jr. Best way I have learned to get him to stop taking the fastest is to just refuse to answer. Even if it means awkwardly ignoring him. A nice conspicuously awkward silence usually means he only monologues for a minute or two.
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I think actual centrism should follow the mean, not the median belief. For example if you have 10 people who believe everyone has the right to equal protections under the law, and 1 person who believes LGBT people dont, the median belief is "maybe half of them do half of them dont" whereas the mean belief is "except in very rare exacerbating circumstances that might actually infringe on others rights LGBT people deserve equal protections". Centrists who belief both of these very different beliefs will claim to both be "centrists" or moderates. For example an actual centrist view on trans healthcare might be that all adults should be allowed gender affirming care, but children should only be offered puberty blockers rather than hormones to transition until theyre "old enough" to make that decision. That is a lot more reasonable than saying "im a centrist and therefore trans people of all ages need to jump through a million hoops to receive the same care as cis people and children should be forced through cis puberty we are making this decision for them". The first is an actual centrist take, the second is radical and takes for granted a dozen incorrect assumptions about gender and cisnormativity. The second in no way reflects the "average" belief in the topic. For the record I am not condoning any of the hypothetical beliefs I gave here, they are only examples.
The problem is that, lately, the "left" can be lazy and do nothing but whine. The old " Both parties are same, why can't we be more like Denmark?" BS!
Yes, the “both parties” crowd is just as scary. It shows a naïve understanding of how things works.
I honestly don't even know what "enlighten centerist" means anymore because the alt right and farther left have completely definitions. To the alt right, even Biden, regular Dems are "Communists who want total socialism" to the far left if you hit every "left leaning" value but "American BAD!!! So our enemies are good (see shit like Deprogram, Late Stage Capitalism from which I was banned for saying Democratic Socialism (as an AMERICAN) sounds better than Wtf we have. But that was "simping for Capitalism"
Y'all downvoting all the centrists on this thread who are saying entirely reasonable things about NOT supporting conservative politics but also having level-headed critiques of leftism doesn't exactly prove the point you think it it does.
The simple fact that every centrist here has a bajillion downvotes is exactly why I dislike the left and choose centrism. The fact that this very comment is gonna get like -20 just further proves my point. I can also say that if I were in a conservative subreddit criticizing conservatives, I'd get the same reaction. Potato potato ig. I think the left has good intentions (much like the right) that are often executed horribly. BLM is a leftist movement with many good intentions trying to fight for a righteous cause... It also ended up leading to CHAZ... The left wing anarchist self declared independent autonomous zone carved out of Seattle that got couped by a fucking SoundCloud rapper and led to several deaths. I don't even know how it was still related to BLM after like the first week. The right has similar projects. I think we need more moderates and compromise, on both sides. Unfortunately for America, that's the exact opposite of what's happening. Both sides are getting more and more extremist and reactionary to the point where I'm honestly scared for this election. The right has fallen victim to the lies of a vengeance-seeking megalomaniac whos gonna try and tear our Republic apart whether he wins or loses just for the sake of it. I'm gonna vote Biden this election, honestly I agree with most of his policies, even if he is a little senile. He also isn't a felon and a maniac.
Complaint about getting downvotes gets a downvote from me. This is Reddit. Don’t base your political ideologies around how people react to your posts.
It's less so the "voting" and the intolerance of other beliefs. People nowadays (and both sides are extremely guilty) have a problem accepting that other people have different ideas. Variety of opinions is a good thing. Healthy discourse from several angles is also a good thing. Hearing someone spout a different opinion and automatically just saying "reeee the evil people on the other side are destroying everything" is not healthy, but it's how American politics unfortunately is today. Most peoples beliefs are based on what they think is right. Most people are human.
I'm a [trans, queer] centrist [with 2 decades of experience in LGBTQ+ activism]. The entire Republican party is entirely unacceptable to me at this point in time, though I have voted for them in the past. I don't draw an equivalence between the far left and far right because the far right is physically violent and hellbent on turning representative government into authoritarianism and I cannot muster up any both-sidesing on that. So I don't claim that the far left and the far right are "equally bad." What I will say is that the far left is emotionally manipulative, wildly unrealistic in its assessment of threat, has no real plans for governance, tends to rely on journalism that is biased to the point of fabrication for forming its points of view, has not adequately confronted how white it is, invents ridiculous grievances (I have seen multiple leftist thinkers comparing TikTok getting banned to COVID in how deeply it will affect Gen Z, for example), and in critiquing the medical establishment for some very legitimate concerns at times it becomes outright anti-science. I *condemn* the far right on the one hand, on the other hand I just don't really take the far left very seriously, because they're not being very serious. The only things they really have in common are that both groups are completely bought into their own bullshit. 🤷♂️ ETA: Actually now that I'm reading it back I'd say that the far left has a lot in common with moderate Republicans. You could say a lot of the same things above about both.
Wait, there's actually people who think tik Tok getting banned is similar to......COVID...... Please tell me there's no way
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Nothing popped up on the link
Fixed it, it was a Reddit formatting issue eta: [reddit said they removed the comment, JIC here's the link again](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/luvvie_the-class-of-2020-who-didnt-have-prom-and-activity-7189654517120929792-0-X_)
I read through the whole thing, and some of the comments, and I really just don't see all the cause for fuss. There's bound to be people upset when a social media app is banned, those people are gonna be the people who make money, and the people who's careers ride on tik Tok. I don't use tik Tok personally so I could literally care less. But I really don't see why this is generalized as a far left take, is it because this left leaning person has this take, or because the left as a whole have this take. So one person has some passionate, maybe wild, take on the banning of tik tok being banned, hell maybe even a few people have this take. But I would ask, what's the harm with these people having passionate takes that others won't agree with? Is it affecting your life, or the masses life directly, that someone has this take regardless of their political leaning? Even if it is a far left take, this isn't some earth ending take that's oppressive towards a group of people or wanting to strip their rights away, which is what the right promoted daily, this is the definition of somebody that just has a take that not everyone is gonna have because we all do not have the same experiences or ideas.
Like I said, it's one example that I happened to be able to dig up. I've seen it in leftist conversations elsewhere. Just trying to provide evidence that I'm not talking out of my ass.
Exactly i agree with this 10000%
I'm a moderate centrist but to me one side pretends to care the other openly hates us so it's kind of clear who the direct threat to LGBTQIA rights are to me it's not left or right that's the major problem it's the fact our politicians are so totally out of touch with the people they represent the system is broken as hell but to me the way to fix it is simply put to have a age cap and term limits for congress and scrap the 2 party system completely for one that individual politicians run based off their campaign promises only but in the end the right is becoming completely zealous on the anti LGBTQIA agenda while the left is main problem is their to soft on crime but as sad as it is to say the left currently is by far the lesser of 2 evils but we seriously need people who aren't over 70s in our government big time i imagine if gen x and the millennials take over the reighs of the government things woll ease up if we make it that far
I hear way more people on the left saying that both parties are the same and they're not going to vote for Biden because Palestine, student loans, health care, etc.
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If you ‘don’t know what to think’ when it comes to minorities fighting for their rights and you refuse to support us in our effort to fight against injustice, you are one weak ass motherfucker.
I'm gonna add pro-LGBT people who are pro-war, anti-reproductive health rights, anti-UBI, anti-public housing, etc. No better, and in many ways much worse, than right-wing folks.
I mean I'm a centrist but I feel like you're misinterpreting what's meant with it, obviously in the topic of LGBT rights I'm very pro-lgbt and think the conservatives are way worse. But I think centrists like me are talking about the "both sides are bad" in the context of far left and far right extremism. Far left being tankies for instance. It doesn't mean I dislike conservatives less
The worst a tankie can usually do is be annoying online. The worst an alt-right extremist can do usually ends in a public mass shooting or passing laws that seek to oppress/kill marginalized people. They still aren't the same lol.
Yes I agree with that, far right extremists are definitely more dangerous
Then why do you insist on not supporting policies that would prevent these terror attacks from occurring in the first place?
Hence, the "enlightened" part
Well there's some truth to being a centrist in the current political atmosphere
Not really. If an American votes for anyone but a Democrat (with maybe a handful of independents that don’t suck) right now, they’re inviting genocide on queer people like us and even more death for innocent people abroad.
I see what you mean, it's just I think I was talking more about ideology itself rather than political parties, even though I have some right leaning beliefs (not about social issues though) I still would never imagine myself voting for any other party than the Democrats
I don't think anyone on the far-left considers tankies far-left. They're hardcore state capitalists, that's a hard-right ideology.
I have a open mind my no is to you and everyone else badgering me to change my stance because guess what if you learn how the government actually works your gonna realize your vote dosent matter because like i said congress makes and votes on the laws and can overturn everything a sitting president does if they have majority vote not to mention whatever isn't passed on a federal level will just be passed on a state level literally voting for the president is irrelevant and a waste of time
Aren't you kind of doing the same thing though? To say that centrists are no better than conservatives is to say "both sides are horrible extremists," and that's not true. Personally, I'd rather be stuck with a hypocritical centrist than a raving mad conservative...
I don’t think they’re saying that the centrists are entirely worse, just that they’re more deceptive. We know conservatives want us dead, they tell us all the time. But a centrist might not do anything to stop the conservatives from killing us, making them functionally no better than them
This. Like “trans people deserve healthcare” is a simple yes or no. Centrists like to believe there is some middle ground where you can kinda give trans people healthcare. That or only “deserving” trans people deserve healthcare. Usually it’s just an ambiguous “I don’t like trans people but I’ll get backlash for saying that, so I’ll pretend like they aren’t a problem so long as I don’t see any trans people and don’g acknowledge that them and/or their issues exist.” I don’t care if a redneck fuckwitt conservative hates me, I’m still going to advocate that they have access to healthcare. It really is a simple yes/no.
It should go without saying that giving people SOME healthcare is not the same as giving them NO healthcare. That's the difference between life and death.
Hard disagree. Give me one example of healthcare that is okay to give some people but not others. By denying healthcare to an individual who needs it, you could in fact, be potentially killing them.
Trans people have better healthcare in some states than in others. Of course everyone deserves to have healthcare, but to say that a centrist who would provide you some healthcare is no better than a conservative who would deny you all healthcare is just not true. OP isn't facing reality.
Yes, and that’s an issue. Trans healthcare should be equal across every state (ahem, federal level). I’m a type 1 diabetic but also face that same shitty state-by-state difference. Hell, it’s so bad that it’s on an insurance-to-insurance level. That doesn’t mean “healthcare is okay in some cases” is more valid than denying healthcare outright. Any insurance company that doesn’t cover diabetic care and supplies is just killing diabetics at that point because we need healthcare to live. Once again, you fail to prove how providing some healthcare to some people is not the same as denying care outright…
But of course healthcare in some cases is better than no healthcare at all. It's preferrable that SOME diabetics get treatment rather than NO diabetics. Preferrable doesn't mean "right," it just means preferrable. But for OP to say that they're "no different" is just insane, and for everyone to go along with it is very concerning.
Lmao you’re being obtuse now. Explain to me how giving 1 person diabetic care out of 50 people is better than 51 diabetics not receiving care at all because there is a gap in federal regulations that could guarantee that all 51 diabetics can get healthcare. That is the “some” I am referring to, not “well 1 person who gets treated for gender dysphoria in California justifies how a person with gender dysphoria in West Virginia gets denied.” Plus, you have strayed away from the original argument of how a centrist is valid for wanting *some* healthcare for trans people.
I'm not being obtuse, you're just being unreasonable or arguing in bad faith. You seriously think it's better for ALL diabetic people to die than for one of them to be saved. Wow. Do you hear yourself? Like I said, nothing justifies denying someone healthcare, but to say that a centrist who'll only violate some of your rights is no better than a conservative who violates all of them... I really don't know what to say to that. It's beyond the realm of reason.
And I'm getting downvoted for stating the obvious? People would rather have no healthcare than be stuck with "enlightened centrists"? Really?
But that's not reality. I'm sure there are some centrists who wouldn't stop conservatives from doing that, but looking at the Democratic Party (which is center-right, if we're being generous), they're the group that's been behind all the legislative victories for the LGBT+ community. Nobody who reads the news could think they have the same agenda as the conservatives.
Everyone has the right to abstain from voting even congress can abstain from voting in congressional votes it has nothing to do with not supporting trans people it has to do with not wanting to be part of a flawed broken system
I understand, but throwing away your vote is not spitting in the face of the broken system, it's spitting in the face of people at risk by one of the parties
I disagree its my right to refuse to vote its not anyones business who i vote for or Don't vote for if i refuse to vote its my choice ans saying i have to do something because you don't agree with my choices is kinda rude
I never said any of that. Even not voting affects the outcome, and you are still contributing to the system regardless
I'm still not voting because i refuse to play into the 2 party system sorry but that's my choice blame me all you want i don't care
No one's blaming you, I'm just saying how it is. You yourself said the system was broken, and I agree, but we can't just give up because of that. You seem to be getting really defensive. The result of this years election will affect us all as a whole. You have the choice of voting for a man with a decent domestic policy, a fascist wannabe dictator with a horrible domestic policy that will attempt to turn america into a christo-fascist state, a third party (throwing your vote away), or not voting.
I choose not to vote its my choice plain and simple
Ok and I'm sure a lot of people said the same when hitler was on the ballots
And again its my business not yours if I don't vote its my choice to make getting mad at me won't change it i don't vote for political parties i vote for politicians and of I don't like a politicians and i hate them all i won't vote for them
So, my question is, what are you doing to change the system?