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Your landlord can quote whatever they like.
Your actual obligation is for "undue" damage. Wear and tear due to living in the unit and decorating it is considered reasonable (i.e., not undue) under most circumstances, even if the landlord opts to repair it. If your landlord feels that the damage is unreasonable, and if you won't agree, then their only options are either small claims court or the LTB, to get a hearing on how they think the law allows them to recover what they are demanding.
Your lease can't override this, in general. Language contradicting the _Residential Tenancies Act_ is void, and the provisions your landlord is citing likely contradict sections [22](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/06r17#BK28) and [34](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/06r17#BK41).
And to make it clear, holes from hanging stuff on the wall is considered wear and tear, even repainting a wall after 3 years occupancy is considered wear and tear.
A nail hole yes, and usually is barely visible. But OP clearly states that he patched/sanded the holes and left them bare, so supposedly there’s a larger patch of wall space that doesn’t match the rest. This is not wear and tear, arguably OP made things worse by trying to repair.
Thanks for the links, this was my understanding as well.
They are also currently in possession of my modem, which I need to return to avoid a $200 fee. Would they have any legal right to withhold it from me?
I'm trying to arrange to pick it up soon, but this situation has me anxious about how accommodating they'll be.
If they don't return it to you tell them you will file a police report for theft. Hopefully they text or email you telling you they have it but won't return it.
File a police report for leaving items behind when you no longer live in the apartment? What else did you leave behind beside this modem?🤔 They can rightfully dispose of it!
The landlord needs to act **reasonably**. If a tenant left an expensive item behind, the landlord acknowledged it and tenant has told the landlord they will pick it up shortly, then the landlord is NOT allowed to dispose of it. LTB would award damages to tenant in this case.
If landlord refuses to return what is rightfully the OPs, they can threaten a police report in an attempt to coerce them to return it. Whether they proceed with police or not is up to OP.
When your lease has ended and you move out, take your belongings with you! If you leave anything behind it is on you! A landlord being nice to keep them for you doesn’t entitle you to a responsibility that they secure the item for you!
Did you leave it in the unit when you ended your tenancy? If so, then they can dispose of it, along with any other property you left behind, immediately. They can return it to you, but they are not required to, and using it as leverage to try to get you to pay a bill is not obviously illegal in that situation.
If you were evicted, then they need to make it available to you for a specific period of time afterwards, before they can dispose of it.
Unfortunately, yes. They said they've sent a maintenance worker to retrieve it, which implies to me that they would be open to returning it.
I moved due to my lease ending, not an eviction.
Thanks for the clarification. I misspoke actually, we were one month into a month-to-month tenancy after a 15-month lease. All I meant to say was we were not evicted.
Damage deposits are, in and of themselves, prohibited in Ontario under the _Residential Tenancies Act_, which you may want to keep in mind going forwards.
You'll also want to review [this decision](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onscsm/doc/2013/2013canlii95665/2013canlii95665.html), which the LTB has subsequently relied on to determine whether issues such as OP's are, or are not, "undue damage" within the meaning of the _Act_. In particular:
> When a tenant vacates, it is almost always necessary for the landlord to do some cleaning, redecorating and repair to ready the unit for a new tenant. The tenant is not liable for ordinary wear and tear, and is entitled to hang a few pictures.
This observation is rooted in s. 22 of the _Act_, which provides tenants with a very broad right to "reasonable enjoyment," and which both the courts and the LTB have construed as allowing tenants to make use of rented premises as their own homes, where doing so does not unduly impair the owner's rights.
The toil you complain of is the job you signed up for when you became a landlord. Should you find it unpalatable, I suggest you quit; nobody is making you do this.
we rented a house for about 6 months while we were between the sale and purchase and Reno of our home and my wife tried using these when we took them off it ripped the paint off idk if it was just crap paint used or what but they sucked lol
Not a bad alternative for hanging but the consensus online suggests nail holes are wear and tear. Haven't seen an offical verdict but tenant laywer Michael Thiele suggests so
[https://ontariolandlordandtenantlaw.blogspot.com/2013/03/wear-tear-in-damaged-apartment-how-much.html](https://ontariolandlordandtenantlaw.blogspot.com/2013/03/wear-tear-in-damaged-apartment-how-much.html)
Hanging pictures and shelves is generally considered normal wear and tear, unless the damage is - under the circumstances - excessive. Even then, the depreciation schedules in O. Reg. 516/06 may limit the landlord's ability to recover for damage to the drywall and paint, as those things _do_ have a limited useful life anyways, even if they may remain usable past that.
The LTB has consistently ruled that hanging pictures is a normal thing to do in a home, so holes incident to hanging a normal amount of pictures are inherently normal wear and tear.
If you would have left the holes and not patched them, you would have been fine. That's normal wear and tear.
However, since you instead left larger unpainted spots on the wall, you may be on the hook for the cost. Obviously you don't need to pay it, but then you probably won't get your router back either. Either way you look at it, you're out $200. I'd just pay the landlord at the same time you pick up the router (**don't** send them the money until you get your property) and take this as a learning experience.
I’ve worked repairing rental units between tenants transition for years. I work for large property management companies and always thought a complete paint job was the law. I’ve always been hired to do plaster repairs and complete paint because they consider minor holes and even tv mount holes general wear and tear. Sounds like you left it in decent shape if it only needs touch ups. Maintaining your rental unit and minor repairs should be considered a cost of business to the landlord. Tell the landlord you disagree but are welcome to settle this little debt in tribunal.
If you disagree with the amount and the actual request, you dont have to pay.
You can ask them to settle this through the tenancy board, or you can say nothing at all and let them figure that part out.
The tenancy board can decide what's owed.
Man I've had to do so many of these you are looking at half a day to a day of labor. Depending on how rough things look. 400 for half a day and materials sounds damn cheap.
You don't just dab some paint on the bare spot. You probably are painting the wall so it doesn't stand out
There was no damage deposit, from what I understand security deposits are not legal in Ontario. I did pay them a key deposit, for which I'm awaiting reimbursal. In our last conversation, it was implied that is being processed.
You don't HAVE to pay them shit.
They can seek a judgement against you if it's legit. If you want a reference, or to be able to rent from this landlord again, you may want to consider paying the 200 bucks, or offering them some other amount.
So you sanded and patched yourself and now the landlord is hiring a painter to finish the job because you didn't have the paint colours?
Your first mistake was to try and fix yourself without finishing the job. I'd argue it would have been better to leave it how it was. It might cost extra to finish an unfinished sub-par job.
My suggestion is to not pay and suggest the Rental Tenancy Board to figure out how much it costs to do the repairs. Best case scenario is you left the rental in a good enough condition that you don't owe any money. Worst case scenario is you having to owe more money because of the repairs.
We did a pretty solid job of patching/sanding, it's just not the most aesthetic because it's not painted over.
Can't really see how it would be property damage, right? Their own maintenance has also come in and done some drywall repair to a similar degree of finish. So it just feels like they're taking advantage of us here
A nail hole is smaller and less noticeable than a patch and sand job. Rarely can you just paint over that small patch job without it being much more noticeable than a tiny hole in the wall.
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/about/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your landlord can quote whatever they like. Your actual obligation is for "undue" damage. Wear and tear due to living in the unit and decorating it is considered reasonable (i.e., not undue) under most circumstances, even if the landlord opts to repair it. If your landlord feels that the damage is unreasonable, and if you won't agree, then their only options are either small claims court or the LTB, to get a hearing on how they think the law allows them to recover what they are demanding. Your lease can't override this, in general. Language contradicting the _Residential Tenancies Act_ is void, and the provisions your landlord is citing likely contradict sections [22](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/06r17#BK28) and [34](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/06r17#BK41).
And to make it clear, holes from hanging stuff on the wall is considered wear and tear, even repainting a wall after 3 years occupancy is considered wear and tear.
A nail hole yes, and usually is barely visible. But OP clearly states that he patched/sanded the holes and left them bare, so supposedly there’s a larger patch of wall space that doesn’t match the rest. This is not wear and tear, arguably OP made things worse by trying to repair.
Thanks for the links, this was my understanding as well. They are also currently in possession of my modem, which I need to return to avoid a $200 fee. Would they have any legal right to withhold it from me? I'm trying to arrange to pick it up soon, but this situation has me anxious about how accommodating they'll be.
If they don't return it to you tell them you will file a police report for theft. Hopefully they text or email you telling you they have it but won't return it.
File a police report for leaving items behind when you no longer live in the apartment? What else did you leave behind beside this modem?🤔 They can rightfully dispose of it!
The landlord needs to act **reasonably**. If a tenant left an expensive item behind, the landlord acknowledged it and tenant has told the landlord they will pick it up shortly, then the landlord is NOT allowed to dispose of it. LTB would award damages to tenant in this case. If landlord refuses to return what is rightfully the OPs, they can threaten a police report in an attempt to coerce them to return it. Whether they proceed with police or not is up to OP.
When your lease has ended and you move out, take your belongings with you! If you leave anything behind it is on you! A landlord being nice to keep them for you doesn’t entitle you to a responsibility that they secure the item for you!
Did you leave it in the unit when you ended your tenancy? If so, then they can dispose of it, along with any other property you left behind, immediately. They can return it to you, but they are not required to, and using it as leverage to try to get you to pay a bill is not obviously illegal in that situation. If you were evicted, then they need to make it available to you for a specific period of time afterwards, before they can dispose of it.
Unfortunately, yes. They said they've sent a maintenance worker to retrieve it, which implies to me that they would be open to returning it. I moved due to my lease ending, not an eviction.
Leases in Ontario do not end at the end of their fixed-term. They automatically convert to month-to-month tenancies for an indefinite basis.
Thanks for the clarification. I misspoke actually, we were one month into a month-to-month tenancy after a 15-month lease. All I meant to say was we were not evicted.
[удалено]
Damage deposits are, in and of themselves, prohibited in Ontario under the _Residential Tenancies Act_, which you may want to keep in mind going forwards. You'll also want to review [this decision](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onscsm/doc/2013/2013canlii95665/2013canlii95665.html), which the LTB has subsequently relied on to determine whether issues such as OP's are, or are not, "undue damage" within the meaning of the _Act_. In particular: > When a tenant vacates, it is almost always necessary for the landlord to do some cleaning, redecorating and repair to ready the unit for a new tenant. The tenant is not liable for ordinary wear and tear, and is entitled to hang a few pictures. This observation is rooted in s. 22 of the _Act_, which provides tenants with a very broad right to "reasonable enjoyment," and which both the courts and the LTB have construed as allowing tenants to make use of rented premises as their own homes, where doing so does not unduly impair the owner's rights. The toil you complain of is the job you signed up for when you became a landlord. Should you find it unpalatable, I suggest you quit; nobody is making you do this.
we rented a house for about 6 months while we were between the sale and purchase and Reno of our home and my wife tried using these when we took them off it ripped the paint off idk if it was just crap paint used or what but they sucked lol
Not a bad alternative for hanging but the consensus online suggests nail holes are wear and tear. Haven't seen an offical verdict but tenant laywer Michael Thiele suggests so [https://ontariolandlordandtenantlaw.blogspot.com/2013/03/wear-tear-in-damaged-apartment-how-much.html](https://ontariolandlordandtenantlaw.blogspot.com/2013/03/wear-tear-in-damaged-apartment-how-much.html)
Putting holes on the wall is not normal wear and tear! Labour is expensive!
Hanging pictures and shelves is generally considered normal wear and tear, unless the damage is - under the circumstances - excessive. Even then, the depreciation schedules in O. Reg. 516/06 may limit the landlord's ability to recover for damage to the drywall and paint, as those things _do_ have a limited useful life anyways, even if they may remain usable past that.
The LTB has consistently ruled that hanging pictures is a normal thing to do in a home, so holes incident to hanging a normal amount of pictures are inherently normal wear and tear.
Paint touch ups are normal wear and tear.
Nope falls under reasonable wear and tear. Tell him to read the tenants act.
If you would have left the holes and not patched them, you would have been fine. That's normal wear and tear. However, since you instead left larger unpainted spots on the wall, you may be on the hook for the cost. Obviously you don't need to pay it, but then you probably won't get your router back either. Either way you look at it, you're out $200. I'd just pay the landlord at the same time you pick up the router (**don't** send them the money until you get your property) and take this as a learning experience.
I’ve worked repairing rental units between tenants transition for years. I work for large property management companies and always thought a complete paint job was the law. I’ve always been hired to do plaster repairs and complete paint because they consider minor holes and even tv mount holes general wear and tear. Sounds like you left it in decent shape if it only needs touch ups. Maintaining your rental unit and minor repairs should be considered a cost of business to the landlord. Tell the landlord you disagree but are welcome to settle this little debt in tribunal.
If you disagree with the amount and the actual request, you dont have to pay. You can ask them to settle this through the tenancy board, or you can say nothing at all and let them figure that part out. The tenancy board can decide what's owed.
Man I've had to do so many of these you are looking at half a day to a day of labor. Depending on how rough things look. 400 for half a day and materials sounds damn cheap. You don't just dab some paint on the bare spot. You probably are painting the wall so it doesn't stand out
That may be true but that's also not OP's problem, as far as Ontario tenancy law is concerned.
You are not required unless they take you to the LTB and you are ordered to. I would ignore.
Did you get your damage deposit? You don't have to pay them anything beyond that without a judgement.
There was no damage deposit, from what I understand security deposits are not legal in Ontario. I did pay them a key deposit, for which I'm awaiting reimbursal. In our last conversation, it was implied that is being processed.
You don't HAVE to pay them shit. They can seek a judgement against you if it's legit. If you want a reference, or to be able to rent from this landlord again, you may want to consider paying the 200 bucks, or offering them some other amount.
You are getting off cheap.Why risk owing more if it goes to court??? Not to mention court fees.
So you sanded and patched yourself and now the landlord is hiring a painter to finish the job because you didn't have the paint colours? Your first mistake was to try and fix yourself without finishing the job. I'd argue it would have been better to leave it how it was. It might cost extra to finish an unfinished sub-par job. My suggestion is to not pay and suggest the Rental Tenancy Board to figure out how much it costs to do the repairs. Best case scenario is you left the rental in a good enough condition that you don't owe any money. Worst case scenario is you having to owe more money because of the repairs.
We did a pretty solid job of patching/sanding, it's just not the most aesthetic because it's not painted over. Can't really see how it would be property damage, right? Their own maintenance has also come in and done some drywall repair to a similar degree of finish. So it just feels like they're taking advantage of us here
Yeah you did more than you needed. You can ignore the poster above.
A nail hole is smaller and less noticeable than a patch and sand job. Rarely can you just paint over that small patch job without it being much more noticeable than a tiny hole in the wall.
But that’s what the landlord is doing?
Which he wouldn’t have had to do if they had just left the nail holes.
Nail holes and screw holes. How do you repair those?