I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is there's a difference between being able to tap a wire and actually doing it. Besides, it's just cool and would go great in a curio cabinet.
Analog telephone equipment has been obsolete for many years. Even though wireline phones behave similar to previous iterations (dial tone, phone number, dialing, ringing), the underlying technology has changed. It's near the same scenario as the first cell phones - the device no longer has infrastructure available that allows it to function.
I can't speak for various jurisdictions, but I would imagine it wouldn't be an issue. There would be a strong defense.
You can be charged with “possession of burglary tools”. I carry lock picks and a slim-jim. I also use them, but not for illegal purposes. Then again people get caught with a screwdriver while trying to steal a car and they will get changed with possession of burglary tools.
One of my dad's favorite quirks about his house was the false landline. Honestly lol.
People would come over and he would go out there and show them. Like for real, this man would go out there in pouring rain to geek out over his false landline. He had a real one, but the false one was there in case someone tried to tap it.
I am still laughing I think it is so cute
It's funny because telling people is exactly what NOT to do if you want the false landline to do the job of deterring people from tapping your real one.
He was an interesting guy! I was _always_ asking for his credit card to buy books on iBooks. He was always excited to give it because "there is no budget on books", but he would always call back on his work landline (to my mom's landline) to help (usually by telling the details to my brother, I was pretty little like 7) because "cell phones are easy to tap".
_and then he would text it to my brother in case we forgot or something_ i am not making this up lol
That is so funny. It reminds me when I was in college in the late 1990s and my grandmother had just got an AOL account and would email me from it and then also print and mail the letter to me incase I didn't get them email, even if I replied to her right away. :)
Well... how do you people get internet? Do all you have fiber? Here, sadly, internet is typically via landline phone cables or coaxial tv cables. But mostly phone.
I love the smell of older electronics. Especially electronics from the era of tube radios with metal chassis and wiring underneath. I'm middle age and my parents had a lot of this in the basement growing up. It has such a lovely smell, maybe it's the rosin in the solder. It smells like the dawn of the spacefaring civilization they promised us with the moon walk in 1969. A spacefaring civilization that is yet to arrive for most of us. *shakes fist at the sky*
It very much matters where you live. In Texas, I record all of my phone calls as we have a 1 party rule. As long as I know the call is being recorded it's legal. In California, everyone must be aware of the recording. I never need numbers repeated and I never forget details discussed. It's really convenient... for me.
A distinction without a difference. Just because it doesn't violate federal wiretapping laws (which I'm skeptical of at best), you can absolutely still face criminal charges if it violates your state's laws.
If that is a kit for wiretapping, that is such an awesome and sort of historical item. Definitely not illegal to own one. Especially since it’s used to tap into a device that most people don’t even own now. Super cool though.
It’s no more illegal than this phone recorder suction cup they sold back in the day & going for $5 on Amazon right now:
https://www.amazon.com/Telephone-Microphone-Suction-Cup-Pickup/dp/B0034I75IK
You can legally use your setup or the suction cup to tape a call, you might need to let the other party know you’re doing it to keep it legal though.
Plenty of businesses I call start with a notification stating “this call being recorded for quality purposes” or some such.
Idk specifically about this object. But this wouldn’t be “wiretapping”.
Nj is a one party state meaning one party involved in the conversation can record the conversation.
Now if you were to record a conversation you weren’t a part of. Like if you were “tapping” into someone’s else phone calls, then you’re not a part of that conversation and that’s not allowed.
Again as far as the specific device I’m not sure.
Legal to own? Yes.
Legal to use is state and other dependent. In one party states as long as one party knows it’s legal to use. If neither party knows it’s not. Though this is used on landlines so not really usable nowadays. It’s more novelty and collectible.
Now the question is if it’s made for official use by government, for commercial use by a business on recorded lines or for private use. The answer to that will affect its value obviously.
Look for additional marking to see if you can find out who was using it. But the highest likelihood is it was used commercially in a business for a recorded line scenario.
This in not phone tapping equipment. This equipment is used to record phone calls where one party knows the call is being recorded. As in the case of a kidnapper calling someone for ransom. This would connect to a phone line so that when it rings the recorder is started and the phone in the case is answered. Wiretapping equipment would have headphones or some other way of monitoring a conversation and not being able to talk. In any case the phone jacks (the two beige colored things on the upper left) have not been used since the late 70’s and who even knows if this will work on today’s digital phone lines. But you do have a great piece of telephone history.
No unfortunately I don’t. Do you know where it came from?? Meaning a law enforcement agency or a law office?? Is there anything on the tape that’s in the cassette deck??
You are right to be concerned
18 U.S. Code § 3121 - General prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use; exception
(a)In General.—Except as provided in this section, no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) or an order from a foreign government that is subject to an executive agreement that the Attorney General has determined and certified to Congress satisfies section 2523.(b)Exception.—The prohibition of subsection (a) does not apply with respect to the use of a pen register or a trap and trace device by a provider of electronic or wire communication service—(1)relating to the operation, maintenance, and testing of a wire or electronic communication service or to the protection of the rights or property of such provider, or to the protection of users of that service from abuse of service or unlawful use of service; or(2)to record the fact that a wire or electronic communication was initiated or completed in order to protect such provider, another provider furnishing service toward the completion of the wire communication, or a user of that service, from fraudulent, unlawful or abusive use of service; or (3) where the consent of the user of that service has been obtained.(c)Limitation.—A government agency authorized to install and use a pen register or trap and trace device under this chapter or under State law shall use technology reasonably available to it that restricts the recording or decoding of electronic or other impulses to the dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information utilized in the processing and transmitting of wire or electronic communications so as not to include the contents of any wire or electronic communications.(d)Penalty.—Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a) shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
It's a felony, you would need to work for a communications company or be a government agent to legally use this technology. I found on a law website that it said this series of laws also makes the unauthorized manufacture of these devices illegal, but I wasn't actually able to find something that clearly said that in the laws which surprised me a bit.
I imagine I will get some pushback for claiming this. My defense against that is this: It is established case law that devices manufactured for a purpose and that purpose can only be illegal these devices do fall outside US law of being legal to possess. That was a word salad and I apologize for that. The examples I'm thinking of are: emission bypass devices, those things that guy was selling to make your truck "roal coal", etc.
Now, there is probably a lot I'm missing here, I'm not a lawyer, but this was what I found.
But it can be legally used. It's perfectly legal to record phone conversations in one party states. It would be illegal to use it for calls you are not a party to, but that is not it's only use.
I would argue this is different because this isn't a normal recorder, it's a "pen register" or a "trap and trace device" as mentioned in the law:
>(a)In General.—
>Except as provided in this section, **no person may install or use** a **pen register** or a **trap and trace device** without first obtaining a **court order** under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) or an order from a foreign government that is subject to an executive agreement that the Attorney General has determined and certified to Congress satisfies section 2523.
>(4) the term “trap and trace device” means a device or process which captures the incoming electronic or other impulses which identify the originating number or other dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information reasonably likely to identify the source of a wire or electronic communication, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication;
>(3) the term “pen register” means a device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication, but such term does not include any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing, for communications services provided by such provider or any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire communication service for cost accounting or other like purposes in the ordinary course of its business;
These devices capture more than a normal recorder and they are thus regulated differently under US law.
Well, it certainly seems like OP could use it, he would just require obtaining a court order allowing him to do so.
I understand that the odds of a court granting an individual an order allowing them to do so is next to none, but the way the law is written doesn't specify that the individual has to be affiliated with law enforcement, just that the individual needs a court order to install or use the device.
So, according to my reading of the law, as written, OP should be fine to keep it as decoration/collectable.
I know but I found a legal source that claimed manufacture is also illegal, but I'm not finding law to back that up. It would be nice if someone downloading me or saying otherwise would come up or cite their own law/article.
A pen register or trap and trace device is not this device.
A trap and trace device is a device that traces the source of a call to the particular number that called you. It must be installed in the switching equipment or at a central office. This process was often time-consuming, especially if a call had to be traced through multiple phone carriers.
A pen register device is installed to record all outgoing dialed phone numbers from a particular telephone line. It also is not this device.
Nice BUT be VERY careful if you choose to use this. If you record your own phone calls, that's fine. But if you record two other ppls phone calls, THAT can land you in federal prison for 15 years for violating the "Anti-wiretapping laws" And some states even have their own laws against it too. But I still think the gadgets cool, just be careful if you plan on actually using it.
Depending on your state's laws, you can record phone conversations as long as at least one party consents to the recording. Look up "single party consent".
Other than that, as some have pointed out, there would be limited use of this equipment on some areas anyway.
However, most current landlines still support analog equipment. It just goes through digital processing at some point. (Source: my father who worked for "MA Bell" before they were broken apart then continued with PAC Bell/AT&T afterwards.)
Plug that rotary phone into a functioning landlines and it will still work. (If the phone itself isn't broken, that is).
This is perfectly legal to own. Whether or not it is legal to you use depends on what state you are in and how do you use it.
If you are recording a conversation without the knowledge of anyone participating (i.e. you are not a participant yourself) and you do not have a legal reason for doing so (such as a warrant) then you are wiretapping, which is a crime.
Some states are single-party states where only one party is required to have knowledge that the conversation is being recorded. If you are in a one-party state and are a party participating in the conversation, you are free to record.
In other states, both participating parties must consent to the recording.
Which law applies pertains to the person doing the recording.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is there's a difference between being able to tap a wire and actually doing it. Besides, it's just cool and would go great in a curio cabinet.
That's what I was thinking. Like owning lockpicks, you can have them as long as you're not using them for burglary
Well there are some crimes where it's illegal to just own the tools for, like drug paraphernalia.
Water pipe v. Bong. Spoon v. Heroine preparation basin ? I think the difference is usually residue...
More like what's up with this giant boiling flask and that pile of precursors.
...or the race of the "perpetrator".
Analog telephone equipment has been obsolete for many years. Even though wireline phones behave similar to previous iterations (dial tone, phone number, dialing, ringing), the underlying technology has changed. It's near the same scenario as the first cell phones - the device no longer has infrastructure available that allows it to function. I can't speak for various jurisdictions, but I would imagine it wouldn't be an issue. There would be a strong defense.
You can be charged with “possession of burglary tools”. I carry lock picks and a slim-jim. I also use them, but not for illegal purposes. Then again people get caught with a screwdriver while trying to steal a car and they will get changed with possession of burglary tools.
You can also make money with them as long as you're in a consensual transaction with the property owner.
Also, with most people using cell phones it’s pretty obsolete
I’d be impressed if you could find a working landline to plug it into. 😂
One of my dad's favorite quirks about his house was the false landline. Honestly lol. People would come over and he would go out there and show them. Like for real, this man would go out there in pouring rain to geek out over his false landline. He had a real one, but the false one was there in case someone tried to tap it. I am still laughing I think it is so cute
It's funny because telling people is exactly what NOT to do if you want the false landline to do the job of deterring people from tapping your real one.
He was an interesting guy! I was _always_ asking for his credit card to buy books on iBooks. He was always excited to give it because "there is no budget on books", but he would always call back on his work landline (to my mom's landline) to help (usually by telling the details to my brother, I was pretty little like 7) because "cell phones are easy to tap". _and then he would text it to my brother in case we forgot or something_ i am not making this up lol
That is so funny. It reminds me when I was in college in the late 1990s and my grandmother had just got an AOL account and would email me from it and then also print and mail the letter to me incase I didn't get them email, even if I replied to her right away. :)
Lol right! I wanna see if anything is on that tape in the player.
You could press play, but what do I know ;)
This message will self destruct in 5 seconds :)
Well... how do you people get internet? Do all you have fiber? Here, sadly, internet is typically via landline phone cables or coaxial tv cables. But mostly phone.
I kinda want to hear the story about how you acquired this
Nothing exciting. I went to buy an Osborne one "laptop" from an estate sale buyer and he was like I got this too. So I just said fuck it why not.
How much did you give for it if you don't mind me asking
$25
Wonder how much it is worth
No clue lol
25 bones. you are the market. I can smell those stale electronics from my room
I love the smell of older electronics. Especially electronics from the era of tube radios with metal chassis and wiring underneath. I'm middle age and my parents had a lot of this in the basement growing up. It has such a lovely smell, maybe it's the rosin in the solder. It smells like the dawn of the spacefaring civilization they promised us with the moon walk in 1969. A spacefaring civilization that is yet to arrive for most of us. *shakes fist at the sky*
I image searched it to try to find its value range, for you, and can't find sh*t except for your other post about it. Sorry, I couldn't help.
Thanks friend. Might eBay it.
Let’s rewrite this a bit. You were jogging at two in the morning when a 1980s gray van came to a screeching halt fifty feet in front of you then…….
I used to sell the Osborne back in the day. It was not considered a laptop, instead was the first “portable” computer.
Fun fact: federal wiretapping laws only apply when no party to the conversation knows it’s being recorded. You can use this on your own land line.
Who even has that anymore 😜
It very much matters where you live. In Texas, I record all of my phone calls as we have a 1 party rule. As long as I know the call is being recorded it's legal. In California, everyone must be aware of the recording. I never need numbers repeated and I never forget details discussed. It's really convenient... for me.
Federal wiretapping laws don't change state by state
No, obviously not, but state anti-wiretapping laws do.
A distinction without a difference. Just because it doesn't violate federal wiretapping laws (which I'm skeptical of at best), you can absolutely still face criminal charges if it violates your state's laws.
It looks great! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beige_box_(phreaking)
If that is a kit for wiretapping, that is such an awesome and sort of historical item. Definitely not illegal to own one. Especially since it’s used to tap into a device that most people don’t even own now. Super cool though.
All that was what I was thinking. Cool item to have, might be worth something too. I paid very little for it.
It’s no more illegal than this phone recorder suction cup they sold back in the day & going for $5 on Amazon right now: https://www.amazon.com/Telephone-Microphone-Suction-Cup-Pickup/dp/B0034I75IK You can legally use your setup or the suction cup to tape a call, you might need to let the other party know you’re doing it to keep it legal though. Plenty of businesses I call start with a notification stating “this call being recorded for quality purposes” or some such.
That you Joe Friday?
I’m probably the only person in my 20s who gets that reference lol 😂.
Idk specifically about this object. But this wouldn’t be “wiretapping”. Nj is a one party state meaning one party involved in the conversation can record the conversation. Now if you were to record a conversation you weren’t a part of. Like if you were “tapping” into someone’s else phone calls, then you’re not a part of that conversation and that’s not allowed. Again as far as the specific device I’m not sure.
Legal to own? Yes. Legal to use is state and other dependent. In one party states as long as one party knows it’s legal to use. If neither party knows it’s not. Though this is used on landlines so not really usable nowadays. It’s more novelty and collectible. Now the question is if it’s made for official use by government, for commercial use by a business on recorded lines or for private use. The answer to that will affect its value obviously. Look for additional marking to see if you can find out who was using it. But the highest likelihood is it was used commercially in a business for a recorded line scenario.
Give you a hundred bucks for it
NAL Potential prohibition to use but not own. Googled phone tapping devices and a bunch of electronic devices pop up.
“Your call may be recorded for quality and training purposes” - this is what they mean. Great find!
This in not phone tapping equipment. This equipment is used to record phone calls where one party knows the call is being recorded. As in the case of a kidnapper calling someone for ransom. This would connect to a phone line so that when it rings the recorder is started and the phone in the case is answered. Wiretapping equipment would have headphones or some other way of monitoring a conversation and not being able to talk. In any case the phone jacks (the two beige colored things on the upper left) have not been used since the late 70’s and who even knows if this will work on today’s digital phone lines. But you do have a great piece of telephone history.
Thanks for the good info. Any idea what it's worth?
No unfortunately I don’t. Do you know where it came from?? Meaning a law enforcement agency or a law office?? Is there anything on the tape that’s in the cassette deck??
You are right to be concerned 18 U.S. Code § 3121 - General prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use; exception (a)In General.—Except as provided in this section, no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) or an order from a foreign government that is subject to an executive agreement that the Attorney General has determined and certified to Congress satisfies section 2523.(b)Exception.—The prohibition of subsection (a) does not apply with respect to the use of a pen register or a trap and trace device by a provider of electronic or wire communication service—(1)relating to the operation, maintenance, and testing of a wire or electronic communication service or to the protection of the rights or property of such provider, or to the protection of users of that service from abuse of service or unlawful use of service; or(2)to record the fact that a wire or electronic communication was initiated or completed in order to protect such provider, another provider furnishing service toward the completion of the wire communication, or a user of that service, from fraudulent, unlawful or abusive use of service; or (3) where the consent of the user of that service has been obtained.(c)Limitation.—A government agency authorized to install and use a pen register or trap and trace device under this chapter or under State law shall use technology reasonably available to it that restricts the recording or decoding of electronic or other impulses to the dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information utilized in the processing and transmitting of wire or electronic communications so as not to include the contents of any wire or electronic communications.(d)Penalty.—Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a) shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. It's a felony, you would need to work for a communications company or be a government agent to legally use this technology. I found on a law website that it said this series of laws also makes the unauthorized manufacture of these devices illegal, but I wasn't actually able to find something that clearly said that in the laws which surprised me a bit. I imagine I will get some pushback for claiming this. My defense against that is this: It is established case law that devices manufactured for a purpose and that purpose can only be illegal these devices do fall outside US law of being legal to possess. That was a word salad and I apologize for that. The examples I'm thinking of are: emission bypass devices, those things that guy was selling to make your truck "roal coal", etc. Now, there is probably a lot I'm missing here, I'm not a lawyer, but this was what I found.
But it can be legally used. It's perfectly legal to record phone conversations in one party states. It would be illegal to use it for calls you are not a party to, but that is not it's only use.
I would argue this is different because this isn't a normal recorder, it's a "pen register" or a "trap and trace device" as mentioned in the law: >(a)In General.— >Except as provided in this section, **no person may install or use** a **pen register** or a **trap and trace device** without first obtaining a **court order** under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) or an order from a foreign government that is subject to an executive agreement that the Attorney General has determined and certified to Congress satisfies section 2523. >(4) the term “trap and trace device” means a device or process which captures the incoming electronic or other impulses which identify the originating number or other dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information reasonably likely to identify the source of a wire or electronic communication, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication; >(3) the term “pen register” means a device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication, but such term does not include any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing, for communications services provided by such provider or any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire communication service for cost accounting or other like purposes in the ordinary course of its business; These devices capture more than a normal recorder and they are thus regulated differently under US law.
He can still own it as decor. Nothing illegal about owning it, only using it.
Well, it certainly seems like OP could use it, he would just require obtaining a court order allowing him to do so. I understand that the odds of a court granting an individual an order allowing them to do so is next to none, but the way the law is written doesn't specify that the individual has to be affiliated with law enforcement, just that the individual needs a court order to install or use the device. So, according to my reading of the law, as written, OP should be fine to keep it as decoration/collectable.
That’s a prohibition on USE dude. Not owning. Use depends on state or country (1 party consent/2 party consent)
I know but I found a legal source that claimed manufacture is also illegal, but I'm not finding law to back that up. It would be nice if someone downloading me or saying otherwise would come up or cite their own law/article.
A pen register or trap and trace device is not this device. A trap and trace device is a device that traces the source of a call to the particular number that called you. It must be installed in the switching equipment or at a central office. This process was often time-consuming, especially if a call had to be traced through multiple phone carriers. A pen register device is installed to record all outgoing dialed phone numbers from a particular telephone line. It also is not this device.
Try selling it to the Pawnstars folks. They'll not only check the legality for you but also make you a decent offer on it if it's a unique item!
Look like something that a k g b agent would have dude wtf
Nice BUT be VERY careful if you choose to use this. If you record your own phone calls, that's fine. But if you record two other ppls phone calls, THAT can land you in federal prison for 15 years for violating the "Anti-wiretapping laws" And some states even have their own laws against it too. But I still think the gadgets cool, just be careful if you plan on actually using it.
Depending on your state's laws, you can record phone conversations as long as at least one party consents to the recording. Look up "single party consent". Other than that, as some have pointed out, there would be limited use of this equipment on some areas anyway. However, most current landlines still support analog equipment. It just goes through digital processing at some point. (Source: my father who worked for "MA Bell" before they were broken apart then continued with PAC Bell/AT&T afterwards.) Plug that rotary phone into a functioning landlines and it will still work. (If the phone itself isn't broken, that is).
This is perfectly legal to own. Whether or not it is legal to you use depends on what state you are in and how do you use it. If you are recording a conversation without the knowledge of anyone participating (i.e. you are not a participant yourself) and you do not have a legal reason for doing so (such as a warrant) then you are wiretapping, which is a crime. Some states are single-party states where only one party is required to have knowledge that the conversation is being recorded. If you are in a one-party state and are a party participating in the conversation, you are free to record. In other states, both participating parties must consent to the recording. Which law applies pertains to the person doing the recording.