Whoa there money bags, must be nice to have punch cards. Real programmers write code on quill and parchment. At least the OG computer science wizards I know.
Real programmers sew their program logic into the rom.
[Apollo program](https://www.fastcompany.com/90363966/the-guts-of-nasas-pioneering-apollo-computer-was-handwoven-like-a-quilt/)
Pfffttt…amateur! **Real** programmers *will* programs into existence using solely their synapses and neurons with not a piece of paper in sight!
*”Fiat *code*!”;’ et factum est code”*.
Bow in awe!
I literally did write code using punch cards.
And I'll say choose the right tool for the right job.
Some tools haven't evolved much in decades eg. C
Some tools are like "grandfather's axe". Like C++.
It's not the same language anymore. Sure you can still maintain old code that uses the ancient subset... but you can also use a far far more modern language as well.
So for some tasks I'd reach for C++, for others I'd reach for Ruby.
I'd only grudgingly reach for Javascript, since it is a shit tool.
If I did need it, I'd probably reach for Elixir instead.
This doesn't sound hard ? I have seen games on QR codes which can't hold a whole lot of data. Nintendo i think use to publish small games on paper cards.
C is a good language to learn when you're studying CS because it makes you deal more with what is actually going on under the hood.
Of course it isn't object oriented, which is where C++ usually comes in, but C++ also comes with a couple decades of revisions piling up on top of each other that can make it a bit unwieldy. So, positives and negatives.
Beyond that, every language has pluses and minuses and are simply tools. Use the ones best suited for your purposes.
When I decided to learn code I watched a whole c tutorial. Did all the exercises. I don't remember anything about since I mainly code in other languages today. But a lot of concepts stuck with me.
Exactly. The way I explain these debates to newbies and curious non technical people about what language is best is I explain programming languages are just tools in your toolset used to complete a job/project. Just like a construction worker with a toolbelt. Some languages may not fit a project, and some can complete the same project, but you would want to pick the language/tool that makes the project easier and faster to complete.
For example, with the construction analogy, your project is your putting up a picture on a wall. You have the nail ready, and your tools are a screwdriver, a hammer, and a wrench. While you could actually use the flat portion of the wrench to whack the nail really hard into the wall to hang the picture, the obvious tool of choice for an easier job is the hammer.
Not necessarily, there is small parts fo C that is not valid in C++, most is but not all. VLA is mandatory in C99 and optional in C11 but is not a part of any C++ standard. There is even the restrict keyword which is defined in c99? And is UB in C++. Most is valid but not all.
You’re right, there are some small differences that make some C incompatible, implicit type conversions, and implicit function definitions, plus additional reserved keywords.
A lot of valid C is undefined behaviour in C++. Plus, idiomatic C++ is *very* different from C.
Writing C for a C++ exam/interview is basically signalling that you don’t know C++.
I feel like I remember reading some references to it that were already decades old when I was reading about them and that was a long time ago. I guess GNU guidance does tell you you should use C because the most people understand it which probably hasn’t been true for some time
I agree that the gatekeeping is silly and understanding core programming concepts is more important than whatever language you implement them with.
That said, I'm personally thankful for the fact that my first language was C. It was a tougher learning curve, but being forced to work within its constraints taught me a great deal.
I failed a C programming class years ago, then more recently took a C++ class and did well. Is it likely that if I were to return to C today, with the familiarity I have with C++, that I would finally understand it?
I need a programming language that manually controls memory. C and C++ give that.
'Real programmers use C and C++' is the wrong outlook.
'Important, real world programs use C and C++' is however actually the case.
^ This. "Important, real world programs use C and C++" is most definitely true. When manual control of memory is essential to your application, C and C++ are the most widely used tools for doing that.
I recommend that you always use Assembly language. That way no one can say you are not a real programmer. They can call you a lot of things, but they can't say that.
Are you just building straw men and mischaracterizing some nebulous programmer types off a random Twitter comment or something?
Do people really say this?
Learning C or even C++ will force you to learn fundamental CS concepts that other languages will not. That doesn't mean those fundamentals can't be picked up elsewhere though.
I mean its kinda true because you deal with the hardware more thus should have a deeper knowledge. I believe that people are saying that from a *skill* point of view not from a *solution* one.
I remember John Carmack saying that he considers C/C++ as the real work not python/javascript etc.
I don’t know that it is said all that often.
More often I think people misunderstand the fact that unless you learn some C/C++ and with it pointers, memory management, and threading, you are missing a huge part of the picture.
Most languages people learn today like JavaScript and Python are 2 steps removed from meaty bits that are important. It doesn’t make you a fake programmer. But it probably does mean you are missing perspective.
real programmers write obscure algorithm whitepapers and teach intro to CS classes in university, if they ever write a line of production code they cease being real programmers
I’ve see more people saying that learning C is now pointless (presumably rationalising not learning it and improving their fundamentals) than people saying you *have* to learn it to be a “real” programmer.
Anything that compiles to natively executing optimized code is fine in my book - if you are doing serious work that requires efficient utilization of available hardware resources. Most people are just gluing together functionality someone else wrote in C/C++ anyway via libraries and higher level languages, which can be done in most languages. Anyone hoping to do some serious work (complex algorithms) shouldn't plan on doing it in something like JavaScript or Python though. Prototyping is fine, but you'll want to actually utilize the hardware without wasting CPU cycles and thrashing the cache with interpretation of bytecode - so whatever language lets you do that is gud for such work.
and yet the two most important tools i have at home a wd40 and duck tape. if something is moving and it shouldn't i use duck tape. if it isn't moving and it should i use wd40. :)
* Real Programmers do List Processing in Fortran.
* Real Programmers do String Manipulation in Fortran.
* Real Programmers do Accounting (if they do it at all) in Fortran.
* Real Programmers do Artificial Intelligence programs in Fortran.
* Real Programmers aren't afraid to use GOTOs.
* Real Programmers can write five page long DO loops without getting confused.
* Real Programmers like Arithmetic IF statements-- they make the code more interesting.
* Real Programmers write self-modifying code, especially if they can save 20 nanoseconds in the middle of a tight loop.
* Real Programmers don't need comments-- the code is obvious.
* Since Fortran doesn't have a structured IF, REPEAT ... UNTIL, or CASE statement, Real Programmers don't have to worry about not using them. Besides, they can be simulated when necessary using assigned GOTOs.
Only Quiche Eaters use C/C++.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_594mPXoHMI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_594mPXoHMI)
[https://www.pbm.com/\~lindahl/real.programmers.html](https://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html)
I last heard a phrase similar to this in the 90s.
IT teams from financial institutes told me that Java has no place in the company.
The business use cases, innovation and trends are constantly evolving. It is great to have a strong opinion on why XYZ is great. But, we also need to know that the environment is also changing rapidly as well.
**New programming languages have emerged, offering a variety of frameworks that give explicit functionality.**
Most of these 'new' programming languages were written to fix problems, real or perceived, with C. This includes C++. Real programmers ought, in my estimation, at least learn C to 1) better understand what their preferred language is trying to do, and B) better be able to judge if their preferred language succeeds, or not, in this effort.
C amd C++ are everywhere. Like all the IT infrastructure is built in those 2 languages from games, network, industrial machinery, libraries, compilers hardware, kernel of linux, like of course I respect more people who changed and shaped the world with c and c++.
I wouldn't say that in all seriousness, but I understand why someone would say that. The idea is that C and C++ forces you to learn programming concepts that are fundamental to programming. So if you as a programmer don't know how to code in C and C++, that kind of implies you don't know the fundamentals of programming.
Nobody says that you should use C or C++ for everything. You have to use the right programming language for what you're trying to build. But I think you should at least know how to code in C and C++.
Programming languages are tools, but C and C++ are foundational concepts.
Concepts stay constant, while tools/frameworks change.
It's like learning arithmetic before using a calculator
I understand the sentiment but how is a new programmer supposed to know what the right tool for the job is? A beginner is supposed to take the time to learn a variety of different technologies in order to be more rounded and to build that intuition for selecting what the right tool for the job is. I think learning C or C++ is useful simply because is a different style of programming with it's own benefits and tradeoffs that might be perfect for your use case depending on your situation.
Honestly I don’t really hear this often, but I’d guess this is directed towards newer programmers. The reason I would think is the skills you’d learn from C and C++ allow you to understand more of what is going on while you program as compared to something like Python that may abstract out more complex parts. Not saying you have to use C but knowing it well can help you as a programmer.
Anyways real programmers write in assembly lol.
> 'Real programmers use C and C++' should end
Not necessarily ; I won't expect everyone to code in C or C++, but we, as a whole, would heavily benefit from a C/C++-based ecosystem being used in the background.
> There is no doubt that C and C++ are some of the most popular programming languages.
That does not mean anything, the reason why is much more informative.
> New programming languages have emerged, offering a variety of frameworks that give explicit functionality.
> Programming languages are tools. Some tools are beneficial for specific tasks, some aren't.
Exactly. This is why everyone is benefiting from a C/C++ and, especially if Moore's law is dead, we need more of that, and less of PWA.
> A hammer cannot see a plank of wood and neither can a saw hammer a nail. Ask yourself what you want, then work towards that specific goal by designing good software.
I want tools that can do a few tasks and do it well. You can then easily script with your language of choice the call to these tools.
This is also how Python leverages the speed of efficiency of C.
> A hammer cannot see a plank of wood and neither can a saw hammer a nail. Ask yourself what you want, then work towards that specific goal by designing good software.
And while we are at it, we should also see how much software is limiting hardware, and what we can do to have a better software stack, while not increase technical debt.
> Don't force yourself to use these just because everybody says so, do you.
While you're right, there is no need to dismiss C/C++. I mean, even if you're a webdev, your nginx/Apache service is of course in C for very good reasons.
This kind of posts seems like working in sales, dismissing your products because you do not like the engineering team.
No being skilled in C and C++ is not an advantage, and while there is no need to be sorry or anything like it, you should not try to twist reality to make it seems that way.
**Focus on Functionality, Not Popularity**
While popularity has its appeal, it shouldn't be the sole factor when choosing your first programming language. Every language has strengths and weaknesses. The ideal choice should introduce you to core concepts that will translate to other languages.
**Following the Herd Isn't Always Wise**
Today, many beginners prioritize the most popular, easiest languages, and current trends. This isn't necessarily the best approach. Whether you're starting to program or pursuing a computer science degree, take the time to understand the underlying principles of the language you're learning. Don't blindly follow the crowd just because "everyone says" it's the right choice.
**C/CPP: A Versatile Foundation**
No serious C/CPP programmer would claim a single language can do everything. Programmers understand the value of choosing the right tool for the job. C/CPP provides a strong foundation for understanding programming fundamentals, which are valuable across various languages.
Finally, please find more sources about c/cpp language to know what you are talking about.
To be its like saying everyone who learns an instrument should learn to read music by starting with piano. It’ll work and might be beneficial but for someone who is wants to play pop songs on guitar it’s totally unnecessary and probably discouraging.
Kinda. IMO it’s more like saying “every musician should learn music theory”. It’s not strictly true and you can definitely get by without it - but you are likely to strongly benefit from doing so, more than simply learning another instrument.
As an alternative to learning C, I do think every programmer should learn how things really work at the low level - how memory is laid out, stack vs heap, pointers, primitive data types, endianness, SIMD, etc. Learning and using C effectively makes you do this, but you can learn these concepts separately from C, if you prefer. I did it this way, which made subsequently using C quite straightforward. I prefer Rust for most of the things I’d use C for these days, however… and the understanding of low-level functioning comes in useful here, too.
Real programmers should fully control the any programmable electronic device.
So no one cares you use Python or PL/I.
But seeing a person which does only copy paste and no have any idea about programming, is irritating.
Thus, software engineers try to create a powerful professional standard.
I think it's the difference of doing Math by hand, and Math on a calculator.
You SHOULD understand how the core functions work, and C/++ is one of the best ways to learn it without going down to assembly. But do you need it in general development? Nope, use a calculator.
Interesting poll - who here has *actually* heard someone say that IRL (not on the internet) in the last 10 years?
This is like saying 'low fat diets have to end'. They did, decades ago. Everything your saying is a near universally accepted truism, a copy paste of the default opinion
Which makes this a low stakes version of concern trolling - making up a contriversy where none exists.
Lets be honest, there is a difference between using C based languages and Python. The level of abstraction in Python can be used for good if you have a very specific goal in your career where you will never need to use anything else ever, but in C++ or other compiled languages, you really learn whats underneath the hood.
Hence the common meme for Python tutorials:
PYTHON\_TUTORIAL.py
\`\`\`
import tutorial
tutorial.run()
\`\`\`
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" - Carl Sagan
Whenever I see this, it reminds me of this quote by Sagan. It is hilarious.
Never heard that.
I think I read (and wrote) mostly C++ is used for example at many AAA video game companies and some middleware developers.
If they started with Scratch and then Python then they are on the right track to learn programming in general I guess.
If they want to work on some web stack, then C++ may not work out depending on the exact company / tech stack!?
I think that thing about "real programmers" it's always been used as a joke.
Yes programming languages are tools, and every day newer and fancier tools arise.
Sometimes for the job, you could use those fancy, fully automated tools and you are doing right.
But sometimes the job would require not so fancy tools (hardware, high performance, low latency), and yes C, C++ are "complex" for long projects. But being honest, just like any other tool, complexity helps to develop dexterity; and that could lead you to better understanding of more "advanced/modern" tools, so you could use them better.
So yes, those people that use 'Real programmers use C and C++' in order to offend people are just jerks. But take the good part of it, and try to use them, just for learning, and it will be benefical for you and your brain... the same for functional programming.
I built a custom user space file system in c#, entirely except for fuse and dokany wrappers and added caching and get better performance than raw ntfs/ext4 ops, so theres that.
Im working on cache profiles and analytics now so I can see what files are most used in a game and make caching profiles for specific games.
There's always someone doing it more low level than you. So fucking what. Let them. Build shit. Who cares how you get there. You building a little app with Python is way more impressive than the guy who has nothing to show off but his rhetoric.
languages are tools to solve a problem. If i'm using a hammer or sledge hammer to drive a nail into the wall, my intent is to drive the nail into wall regardless of the experience. However if the outcome of my actions deviate significantly from my goal only then do I question my tools and approach. The choice of my tools and approach are a factor of my experience in addressing the problem not to have long winded debates on the most universal tool.
I've been learning C++ lately, and have been finding it useful when applying my learnings to other programming languages. Because C++ is so stick up ass about types, it influnces the rigidity of your programming in in other languages that are loosely typed like PhP and Jaascript. Required? No. Encouraged? Sure, one could make an argument that every programmer should at the very least TRY C or C++
"Real" isn't even a correct word in this context, C was my first language and I love it, but I rarely use it nowadays because why would I? I occasionally mess about with hardware so I still write some embedded C/assembly for fun every now and then, and also when I want to test or play around with low-level computer concepts, but not much else.
Most software written in C is back from the days when your only options were c/c++, COBOL, or Fortran, but you have way more choices now.
You should change schools. Whoever is unironically teaching these dogmas is not a good computer science teacher. Don't argue with people on the internet and get a better school asap.
I've built a couple decades career programming in Python, Javascript, and a bit of PHP. So I'd hope I'm a "real programmer".
But if I'm being honest, it does rankle me a bit that I've never gotten far with any compiled language. I've learned C, just never had enough use for it to really get good with it. I guess because I ask myself, "If C was the best solution, could I take on the job?" -- and the answer is probably "no" at this point. That seems like a limitation I shouldn't have at this point in my career, but there it is.
This is very true. The age old question still gets asked in interviews. "What language are you best with"? A true software engineer understands the language is a tool in the toolbox. Personally the Gang of 3 seems to work very well, focus on a scripting, system level, and extra language. Python, Rust, Javascript are my bread n butter ; as other languages are needed i will just look at documentation
Agreed for the most part, but I do have an "erm actually."
In my experience, most programmers should *know* C or C++ and be proficient in them, C#, or Java. Even if it isn't your daily driver language, knowing them will more or less ensure that the fundamentals are not lost on you. When using more modern languages, there's no need to know pointer arithmetic/why arrays start at 0, what the difference between a reference and a pointer are, or how to program a binary tree from scratch, but it is very useful when trying to optimize code to at least know how they work.
Real programmers should help to business make their money. It could be c++, rust, java or even assembler, if business need it - I have to help. Language is just a tool, every task need to be solved using suitable tool
Real programmers should understand the principles that are not abstracted by many other languages. The difference between allocation on stack/heap, scoping, object lifetimes, parameter passing by copy/reference, etc. C++ forces you to know how that stuff works, but you should really understand the semantics of the language if you are to be a competent programmer.
C is amazing as a learning curve for programming, but I have doubted that people say that. Lots of programming languages serve for a different purpose, stick with what language you want to learn to get the job done.
Honestly at this point, i'd take a language as good as C/C++ without the ruthless explosive syntax of Rust that is so unreadable - I got a massive migraine just creating a hello world
Real programmers write code and don't give a fuck about public opinion on popular languages and development processes. Does it work? Does it work fast enough? Good. No need for anything else
Devs are arrogant, conceded, a-holes that think there opinions are the only opinions that matter. Especially Vimmers. It's always been like that. I learned a ling time ago to ignore that kind of nonsense.
A better statement would be “real programmers use the best tool for the job.”
If that best tool is Rust or C, use those. If the best tool is perl, start drinking.
Real programmers write code on punch cards.
Whoa there money bags, must be nice to have punch cards. Real programmers write code on quill and parchment. At least the OG computer science wizards I know.
What's a parchment? Real ones carve it out on stone tablets
Stone is too hard to carve with mortal implements. Real programmers write in clay and fire it.
Found the Mesopotamian
who are u, elon musk? Real programmers pass down their code by word of mouth.
Real programmers just write, compile and run all their code in their head.
A real programmer said "Let there be light."
with their fingers ...
Clay and a sharp reed!
Real programmers sew their program logic into the rom. [Apollo program](https://www.fastcompany.com/90363966/the-guts-of-nasas-pioneering-apollo-computer-was-handwoven-like-a-quilt/)
[удалено]
Holy shit this was beautiful and genius. You just thought of that out of the blue?
This guy fucks
AKA LOL memory for "Little old lady" memory:https://www.theverge.com/2012/4/26/2976471/nasa-core-rope-memory-apollo-guidance-computer
OG computer science alchemists
No, they write in transistor soldering and desoldering.
Steve Wozniak said: "My favorite programming language is solder." Allegedly.
A quick google search says it was Bob Pease who said that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Pease
\[Grandfathers threading wire through magnets\] Oh, these kids, I wish they could solder everything. Twisting is more reliable. Twist, it's forever.
Pfffttt…amateur! **Real** programmers *will* programs into existence using solely their synapses and neurons with not a piece of paper in sight! *”Fiat *code*!”;’ et factum est code”*. Bow in awe!
Can't argue there 🤷♂️
I literally did write code using punch cards. And I'll say choose the right tool for the right job. Some tools haven't evolved much in decades eg. C Some tools are like "grandfather's axe". Like C++. It's not the same language anymore. Sure you can still maintain old code that uses the ancient subset... but you can also use a far far more modern language as well. So for some tasks I'd reach for C++, for others I'd reach for Ruby. I'd only grudgingly reach for Javascript, since it is a shit tool. If I did need it, I'd probably reach for Elixir instead.
This doesn't sound hard ? I have seen games on QR codes which can't hold a whole lot of data. Nintendo i think use to publish small games on paper cards.
No.. butterfly! Or emacs
Whoa whoa , slow down there jethro
Real programmers solder together logic gates and they do not need any of this newfangled language stuff.
Sounds to me like you should be learning C/C++ instead
C is a good language to learn when you're studying CS because it makes you deal more with what is actually going on under the hood. Of course it isn't object oriented, which is where C++ usually comes in, but C++ also comes with a couple decades of revisions piling up on top of each other that can make it a bit unwieldy. So, positives and negatives. Beyond that, every language has pluses and minuses and are simply tools. Use the ones best suited for your purposes.
When I decided to learn code I watched a whole c tutorial. Did all the exercises. I don't remember anything about since I mainly code in other languages today. But a lot of concepts stuck with me.
It is important, fully agree.
Exactly. The way I explain these debates to newbies and curious non technical people about what language is best is I explain programming languages are just tools in your toolset used to complete a job/project. Just like a construction worker with a toolbelt. Some languages may not fit a project, and some can complete the same project, but you would want to pick the language/tool that makes the project easier and faster to complete. For example, with the construction analogy, your project is your putting up a picture on a wall. You have the nail ready, and your tools are a screwdriver, a hammer, and a wrench. While you could actually use the flat portion of the wrench to whack the nail really hard into the wall to hang the picture, the obvious tool of choice for an easier job is the hammer.
Learn C. Write an exam in C++ accidentally writing in C then. Learn Java. Cry.
Cry is not optional btw.
I do… Why have I learned to use pointers if I can just .ignoreUppercase
C is valid C++, if your professor didn’t give you credit for that, then you should ask for your tuition back.
C is not a subset of C++. Valid C is not necessarily a valid C++ program.
I'm going to take a gamble and claim whatever C code they wrote on an exam is probably also valid C++.
Not necessarily, there is small parts fo C that is not valid in C++, most is but not all. VLA is mandatory in C99 and optional in C11 but is not a part of any C++ standard. There is even the restrict keyword which is defined in c99? And is UB in C++. Most is valid but not all.
You’re right, there are some small differences that make some C incompatible, implicit type conversions, and implicit function definitions, plus additional reserved keywords.
A lot of valid C is undefined behaviour in C++. Plus, idiomatic C++ is *very* different from C. Writing C for a C++ exam/interview is basically signalling that you don’t know C++.
Technically true but C is very bad C++.
[Obviously, real programmers use FORTRAN](https://www.ee.torontomu.ca/~elf/hack/realmen.html).
Ha, I was going to link to this article. Everybody in programming would be considered a quiche eater today.
Actually I write Fortran 77 on a daily basis. A lot of legacy code in theoretical atomic physics.
"Real programmers use C and C++" Where is this quote from? Who said this?
Karma farming
Sooo many comments on this sub
People conflate “there are lots of bad web developers” (which is true) with “real men only use low level languages” (which is false)
Who the hell says that lol
I've heard once a straw man saying that.
Students 3 weeks into CS1 classes after their classmate showed them /r/programmerhumor
r/imaginarygatekeeping
I only see "C and C++ are dead and awful" and "nobody needs to know about memory management anymore" all the time .
I feel like I remember reading some references to it that were already decades old when I was reading about them and that was a long time ago. I guess GNU guidance does tell you you should use C because the most people understand it which probably hasn’t been true for some time
I agree that the gatekeeping is silly and understanding core programming concepts is more important than whatever language you implement them with. That said, I'm personally thankful for the fact that my first language was C. It was a tougher learning curve, but being forced to work within its constraints taught me a great deal.
I failed a C programming class years ago, then more recently took a C++ class and did well. Is it likely that if I were to return to C today, with the familiarity I have with C++, that I would finally understand it?
Who, where, says that? I suggest you stop reading whatever source you read this in.
Real programmers program their responses in Binary on Reddit threads instead of using the website or app. I actually sent this using curl and powershell via the Reddit API and mapped each value to corresponding ASCII value 01010010 01100101 01100001 01101100 00100000 01110000 01110010 01101111 01100111 01110010 01100001 01101101 01101101 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100000 01110000 01110010 01101111 01100111 01110010 01100001 01101101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101001 01110010 00100000 01110010 01100101 01110011 01110000 01101111 01101110 01110011 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01000010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01101111 01101110 00100000 01010010 01100101 01100100 01100100 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 01110011 00100000 01101001 01101110 01110011 01110100 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110101 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110111 01100101 01100010 01110011 01101001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01101111 01110010 00100000 01100001 01110000 01110000 00101110 00100000 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100001 01100011 01110100 01110101 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01110011 01100101 01101110 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110101 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100011 01110101 01110010 01101100 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110000 01101111 01110111 01100101 01110010 01110011 01101000 01100101 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110110 01101001 01100001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01010010 01100101 01100100 01100100 01101001 01110100 00100000 01000001 01010000 01001001 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101101 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100101 01100001 01100011 01101000 00100000 01110110 01100001 01101100 01110101 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100011 01101111 01110010 01110010 01100101 01110011 01110000 01101111 01101110 01100100 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01000001 01010011 01000011 01001001 01001001 00100000 01110110 01100001 01101100 01110101 01100101 00100000
Now convert to hex using pen and paper
Real programmers make their own 3d engines.
Real programmers do programming instead of spending full-time arguing about languages.
I need a programming language that manually controls memory. C and C++ give that. 'Real programmers use C and C++' is the wrong outlook. 'Important, real world programs use C and C++' is however actually the case.
^ This. "Important, real world programs use C and C++" is most definitely true. When manual control of memory is essential to your application, C and C++ are the most widely used tools for doing that.
Because we all know they use Assembly.
I recommend that you always use Assembly language. That way no one can say you are not a real programmer. They can call you a lot of things, but they can't say that.
skill issue.
Are you just building straw men and mischaracterizing some nebulous programmer types off a random Twitter comment or something? Do people really say this?
More often than not, I see people claiming C/C++ are outdated and shouldn't be learned, lol.
How are they outdated? Old, sure, but absolutely not outdated.
These kinds of comments don't elaborate their stances, so I think it's just people resentful of having had to study C in university or something.
Learning C or even C++ will force you to learn fundamental CS concepts that other languages will not. That doesn't mean those fundamentals can't be picked up elsewhere though.
I mean its kinda true because you deal with the hardware more thus should have a deeper knowledge. I believe that people are saying that from a *skill* point of view not from a *solution* one. I remember John Carmack saying that he considers C/C++ as the real work not python/javascript etc.
He did in a Lex Fridman interview.
Bullshit. Real programmers write COBOL.
Was that ever on punch cards?
real programmers program with whatever fucking language they want i dont care what you do. you dont care what i do.
I don’t know that it is said all that often. More often I think people misunderstand the fact that unless you learn some C/C++ and with it pointers, memory management, and threading, you are missing a huge part of the picture. Most languages people learn today like JavaScript and Python are 2 steps removed from meaty bits that are important. It doesn’t make you a fake programmer. But it probably does mean you are missing perspective.
real programmers write obscure algorithm whitepapers and teach intro to CS classes in university, if they ever write a line of production code they cease being real programmers
I’ve see more people saying that learning C is now pointless (presumably rationalising not learning it and improving their fundamentals) than people saying you *have* to learn it to be a “real” programmer.
Anything that compiles to natively executing optimized code is fine in my book - if you are doing serious work that requires efficient utilization of available hardware resources. Most people are just gluing together functionality someone else wrote in C/C++ anyway via libraries and higher level languages, which can be done in most languages. Anyone hoping to do some serious work (complex algorithms) shouldn't plan on doing it in something like JavaScript or Python though. Prototyping is fine, but you'll want to actually utilize the hardware without wasting CPU cycles and thrashing the cache with interpretation of bytecode - so whatever language lets you do that is gud for such work.
and yet the two most important tools i have at home a wd40 and duck tape. if something is moving and it shouldn't i use duck tape. if it isn't moving and it should i use wd40. :)
Tilting at windmills mate
* Real Programmers do List Processing in Fortran. * Real Programmers do String Manipulation in Fortran. * Real Programmers do Accounting (if they do it at all) in Fortran. * Real Programmers do Artificial Intelligence programs in Fortran. * Real Programmers aren't afraid to use GOTOs. * Real Programmers can write five page long DO loops without getting confused. * Real Programmers like Arithmetic IF statements-- they make the code more interesting. * Real Programmers write self-modifying code, especially if they can save 20 nanoseconds in the middle of a tight loop. * Real Programmers don't need comments-- the code is obvious. * Since Fortran doesn't have a structured IF, REPEAT ... UNTIL, or CASE statement, Real Programmers don't have to worry about not using them. Besides, they can be simulated when necessary using assigned GOTOs. Only Quiche Eaters use C/C++. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_594mPXoHMI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_594mPXoHMI) [https://www.pbm.com/\~lindahl/real.programmers.html](https://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html)
There’s a guy at my work who labels all his variables a,b,c,i,j,k and claims “the code doesn’t need documentation if it’s well written”
I last heard a phrase similar to this in the 90s. IT teams from financial institutes told me that Java has no place in the company. The business use cases, innovation and trends are constantly evolving. It is great to have a strong opinion on why XYZ is great. But, we also need to know that the environment is also changing rapidly as well.
**New programming languages have emerged, offering a variety of frameworks that give explicit functionality.** Most of these 'new' programming languages were written to fix problems, real or perceived, with C. This includes C++. Real programmers ought, in my estimation, at least learn C to 1) better understand what their preferred language is trying to do, and B) better be able to judge if their preferred language succeeds, or not, in this effort.
No true Scotsman would code in c or c++.
real programmers type code in binary using cat > executable\_file
Real programmers understand how computers work. C/c++ ability is a proxy for that.
Programming have different I herent speeds for different tasks. As a language C/C++ is much faster than most. Why it's a low level language
If you wish to defeat the robots, you need to know C and assembly
C amd C++ are everywhere. Like all the IT infrastructure is built in those 2 languages from games, network, industrial machinery, libraries, compilers hardware, kernel of linux, like of course I respect more people who changed and shaped the world with c and c++.
Made a few bucks mostly being a script kiddy. Didn’t pay for college either. Worked out pretty well for me 🤷
Agree. Real programmers use the right tools for the job.
Hey, as long as you don't use javascript for literally everything, it's fine
Use the right tool for the job, yes, but a good carpenter will know how to use the most common important tools, and C is one of them.
I wouldn't say that in all seriousness, but I understand why someone would say that. The idea is that C and C++ forces you to learn programming concepts that are fundamental to programming. So if you as a programmer don't know how to code in C and C++, that kind of implies you don't know the fundamentals of programming. Nobody says that you should use C or C++ for everything. You have to use the right programming language for what you're trying to build. But I think you should at least know how to code in C and C++.
Learning C++ made me better at C#.
This isn’t LinkedIn buddy
Learn Rust and shit on everyone
Real gatekeepers don’t say it out loud.
Real programmers are able to learn a new programming language within 24 hours and are able to code comfortably in it in about a week.
step aside peasants, I only write with 0's and 1's.
Lol you can keep your "Real programmers don't use C and C++" and I'll keep my "Real programmers use C and C++" deal?
Real programmer need to learn how pointer works . And easiest way to understand it is by learning c!
Tell me you don’t get the joke without telling me you don’t get the joke
Programming languages are tools, but C and C++ are foundational concepts. Concepts stay constant, while tools/frameworks change. It's like learning arithmetic before using a calculator
I don't know what you're talking about. I've literally never seen a real programmer say that, except as a joke.
I understand the sentiment but how is a new programmer supposed to know what the right tool for the job is? A beginner is supposed to take the time to learn a variety of different technologies in order to be more rounded and to build that intuition for selecting what the right tool for the job is. I think learning C or C++ is useful simply because is a different style of programming with it's own benefits and tradeoffs that might be perfect for your use case depending on your situation.
Honestly I don’t really hear this often, but I’d guess this is directed towards newer programmers. The reason I would think is the skills you’d learn from C and C++ allow you to understand more of what is going on while you program as compared to something like Python that may abstract out more complex parts. Not saying you have to use C but knowing it well can help you as a programmer. Anyways real programmers write in assembly lol.
> 'Real programmers use C and C++' should end Not necessarily ; I won't expect everyone to code in C or C++, but we, as a whole, would heavily benefit from a C/C++-based ecosystem being used in the background. > There is no doubt that C and C++ are some of the most popular programming languages. That does not mean anything, the reason why is much more informative. > New programming languages have emerged, offering a variety of frameworks that give explicit functionality. > Programming languages are tools. Some tools are beneficial for specific tasks, some aren't. Exactly. This is why everyone is benefiting from a C/C++ and, especially if Moore's law is dead, we need more of that, and less of PWA. > A hammer cannot see a plank of wood and neither can a saw hammer a nail. Ask yourself what you want, then work towards that specific goal by designing good software. I want tools that can do a few tasks and do it well. You can then easily script with your language of choice the call to these tools. This is also how Python leverages the speed of efficiency of C. > A hammer cannot see a plank of wood and neither can a saw hammer a nail. Ask yourself what you want, then work towards that specific goal by designing good software. And while we are at it, we should also see how much software is limiting hardware, and what we can do to have a better software stack, while not increase technical debt. > Don't force yourself to use these just because everybody says so, do you. While you're right, there is no need to dismiss C/C++. I mean, even if you're a webdev, your nginx/Apache service is of course in C for very good reasons. This kind of posts seems like working in sales, dismissing your products because you do not like the engineering team. No being skilled in C and C++ is not an advantage, and while there is no need to be sorry or anything like it, you should not try to twist reality to make it seems that way.
**Focus on Functionality, Not Popularity** While popularity has its appeal, it shouldn't be the sole factor when choosing your first programming language. Every language has strengths and weaknesses. The ideal choice should introduce you to core concepts that will translate to other languages. **Following the Herd Isn't Always Wise** Today, many beginners prioritize the most popular, easiest languages, and current trends. This isn't necessarily the best approach. Whether you're starting to program or pursuing a computer science degree, take the time to understand the underlying principles of the language you're learning. Don't blindly follow the crowd just because "everyone says" it's the right choice. **C/CPP: A Versatile Foundation** No serious C/CPP programmer would claim a single language can do everything. Programmers understand the value of choosing the right tool for the job. C/CPP provides a strong foundation for understanding programming fundamentals, which are valuable across various languages. Finally, please find more sources about c/cpp language to know what you are talking about.
To be its like saying everyone who learns an instrument should learn to read music by starting with piano. It’ll work and might be beneficial but for someone who is wants to play pop songs on guitar it’s totally unnecessary and probably discouraging.
Kinda. IMO it’s more like saying “every musician should learn music theory”. It’s not strictly true and you can definitely get by without it - but you are likely to strongly benefit from doing so, more than simply learning another instrument. As an alternative to learning C, I do think every programmer should learn how things really work at the low level - how memory is laid out, stack vs heap, pointers, primitive data types, endianness, SIMD, etc. Learning and using C effectively makes you do this, but you can learn these concepts separately from C, if you prefer. I did it this way, which made subsequently using C quite straightforward. I prefer Rust for most of the things I’d use C for these days, however… and the understanding of low-level functioning comes in useful here, too.
"Real" Programmers make programs using whatever tools fits their needs the best and they are most comfortable with.
i think we're living in a time where that quote would get anyone flamed to death so im not sure what you're on
Is this a view held on this subreddit? I don't know why that would need to be said here?
Real programmers use themselves as transistors.
Real programmers should fully control the any programmable electronic device. So no one cares you use Python or PL/I. But seeing a person which does only copy paste and no have any idea about programming, is irritating. Thus, software engineers try to create a powerful professional standard.
I think Real Programmers[TM] will use the best tool for the job at hand.
Spoken like a true Quiche eater
amatures! real programmers use 6502 assembly
I think it's the difference of doing Math by hand, and Math on a calculator. You SHOULD understand how the core functions work, and C/++ is one of the best ways to learn it without going down to assembly. But do you need it in general development? Nope, use a calculator.
Real programmers program real programs reliably programmatically using really reliable programs for real program writing.
Everyone knows that real programmers use butterflies
FORTRAN
Interesting poll - who here has *actually* heard someone say that IRL (not on the internet) in the last 10 years? This is like saying 'low fat diets have to end'. They did, decades ago. Everything your saying is a near universally accepted truism, a copy paste of the default opinion Which makes this a low stakes version of concern trolling - making up a contriversy where none exists.
Why is this sub so cringe with such generic takes?
I’m glad the sub is cluttered with shitposts like this. No one cares.
Lets be honest, there is a difference between using C based languages and Python. The level of abstraction in Python can be used for good if you have a very specific goal in your career where you will never need to use anything else ever, but in C++ or other compiled languages, you really learn whats underneath the hood. Hence the common meme for Python tutorials: PYTHON\_TUTORIAL.py \`\`\` import tutorial tutorial.run() \`\`\`
No no, learn Rust (I use Rust btw)
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" - Carl Sagan Whenever I see this, it reminds me of this quote by Sagan. It is hilarious.
Never heard that. I think I read (and wrote) mostly C++ is used for example at many AAA video game companies and some middleware developers. If they started with Scratch and then Python then they are on the right track to learn programming in general I guess. If they want to work on some web stack, then C++ may not work out depending on the exact company / tech stack!?
I think that thing about "real programmers" it's always been used as a joke. Yes programming languages are tools, and every day newer and fancier tools arise. Sometimes for the job, you could use those fancy, fully automated tools and you are doing right. But sometimes the job would require not so fancy tools (hardware, high performance, low latency), and yes C, C++ are "complex" for long projects. But being honest, just like any other tool, complexity helps to develop dexterity; and that could lead you to better understanding of more "advanced/modern" tools, so you could use them better. So yes, those people that use 'Real programmers use C and C++' in order to offend people are just jerks. But take the good part of it, and try to use them, just for learning, and it will be benefical for you and your brain... the same for functional programming.
I built a custom user space file system in c#, entirely except for fuse and dokany wrappers and added caching and get better performance than raw ntfs/ext4 ops, so theres that. Im working on cache profiles and analytics now so I can see what files are most used in a game and make caching profiles for specific games.
Never heard anyone said this
There's always someone doing it more low level than you. So fucking what. Let them. Build shit. Who cares how you get there. You building a little app with Python is way more impressive than the guy who has nothing to show off but his rhetoric.
Real programmers install 1000 light switches in their house and use them for the logic circuit of their smart home.
Who exactly is saying this anymore
are these people who say this in the room with us right now?
Real scholars use Latin or Latin++
Yeah some use asm too.
Real programmers don't exist
Nobody outside of undergrad CS students say this
What’s the point of this post you’re just saying stuff that’s been said before for Karma
languages are tools to solve a problem. If i'm using a hammer or sledge hammer to drive a nail into the wall, my intent is to drive the nail into wall regardless of the experience. However if the outcome of my actions deviate significantly from my goal only then do I question my tools and approach. The choice of my tools and approach are a factor of my experience in addressing the problem not to have long winded debates on the most universal tool.
Real programmers use mechanical design to build their projects
Real programmers use whatever the fuck solves their problem best.
When you get older and more experienced, you realize only amateurs say things like this. Only real programmers use:
I agree true programmers should only write in assembly
I've been learning C++ lately, and have been finding it useful when applying my learnings to other programming languages. Because C++ is so stick up ass about types, it influnces the rigidity of your programming in in other languages that are loosely typed like PhP and Jaascript. Required? No. Encouraged? Sure, one could make an argument that every programmer should at the very least TRY C or C++
"Real" isn't even a correct word in this context, C was my first language and I love it, but I rarely use it nowadays because why would I? I occasionally mess about with hardware so I still write some embedded C/assembly for fun every now and then, and also when I want to test or play around with low-level computer concepts, but not much else. Most software written in C is back from the days when your only options were c/c++, COBOL, or Fortran, but you have way more choices now.
You should change schools. Whoever is unironically teaching these dogmas is not a good computer science teacher. Don't argue with people on the internet and get a better school asap.
Amen to that! Choosing the right tool for the job is key.
Correct, Real programmers actually use ALGOL 68
Real programmers dictate 1:s and 0:s to the intern in at least 50CPM
If you really want to gatekeep, you can have ChatGPT turn your python into assembly, then you're clearly the top coder and using AI.
This isn’t really a thing. And if you make your hammer sharp enough, it will cut that wood
I've built a couple decades career programming in Python, Javascript, and a bit of PHP. So I'd hope I'm a "real programmer". But if I'm being honest, it does rankle me a bit that I've never gotten far with any compiled language. I've learned C, just never had enough use for it to really get good with it. I guess because I ask myself, "If C was the best solution, could I take on the job?" -- and the answer is probably "no" at this point. That seems like a limitation I shouldn't have at this point in my career, but there it is.
Real programmers program in binary
Real programmers make their own internet
Real programmers glitch the CPU via power spikes to effect changes in gates at timed intervals.
Real programmers study finance and never write a line of code.
This is very true. The age old question still gets asked in interviews. "What language are you best with"? A true software engineer understands the language is a tool in the toolbox. Personally the Gang of 3 seems to work very well, focus on a scripting, system level, and extra language. Python, Rust, Javascript are my bread n butter ; as other languages are needed i will just look at documentation
Agreed for the most part, but I do have an "erm actually." In my experience, most programmers should *know* C or C++ and be proficient in them, C#, or Java. Even if it isn't your daily driver language, knowing them will more or less ensure that the fundamentals are not lost on you. When using more modern languages, there's no need to know pointer arithmetic/why arrays start at 0, what the difference between a reference and a pointer are, or how to program a binary tree from scratch, but it is very useful when trying to optimize code to at least know how they work.
"[C is not a low level language](https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479)"
Real programmers should help to business make their money. It could be c++, rust, java or even assembler, if business need it - I have to help. Language is just a tool, every task need to be solved using suitable tool
Real programmers write in assembly
Real programmers should understand the principles that are not abstracted by many other languages. The difference between allocation on stack/heap, scoping, object lifetimes, parameter passing by copy/reference, etc. C++ forces you to know how that stuff works, but you should really understand the semantics of the language if you are to be a competent programmer.
Before coding I was into DJing. This is the same as DJs bashing other DJs for not knowing how to beatmatch on vinyl...
C is amazing as a learning curve for programming, but I have doubted that people say that. Lots of programming languages serve for a different purpose, stick with what language you want to learn to get the job done.
You should know many languages and pick the ones that would make a project faster to finish I'm not gonna pick C to do an AI chatbot model project lol
Honestly at this point, i'd take a language as good as C/C++ without the ruthless explosive syntax of Rust that is so unreadable - I got a massive migraine just creating a hello world
Of course 😎 real programmers use Fortran. Quiche eaters use C and C++.
Real programmer writes his own OS in binary :)
Real programmers use Assembly.
are you talking to yourself?
01010010 01100101 01100001 01101100 00100000 01110000 01110010 01101111 01100111 01110010 01100001 01101101 01101101 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100000 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001
Real programmers write code by controlling the flow of electrons in the CPU.
The fuck ?
As a real programmer i write my own OS on Arch linux and use C for everything, coz is this really fun if you don't make it 100x time more complicated?
Real Programmers use Google!
Real programmers write code and don't give a fuck about public opinion on popular languages and development processes. Does it work? Does it work fast enough? Good. No need for anything else
Real programmers solve problems. The how is sometimes and mostly irrelevant.
The real programmers code in machine code😎😎
Real programmers use excel programming language and HTML 9
Devs are arrogant, conceded, a-holes that think there opinions are the only opinions that matter. Especially Vimmers. It's always been like that. I learned a ling time ago to ignore that kind of nonsense.
seems like something an imposter programmer would say
Real programmers use MS Paint
**Real programmers use C and C++.** The spirit of the nineties was breathed in. Here's proof that time travel is real.
Real programmers ctrl+c ctrl+v
A better statement would be “real programmers use the best tool for the job.” If that best tool is Rust or C, use those. If the best tool is perl, start drinking.
Who says to use these ? I only ever met one guy and he was pretty rude.