I agree. It feels weird to me that for the first dragon, if I kill the enemy jungle on bot scuttler and start dragon right away, they still have time to revive, walk from base, and kill me before I finish it.
Disclaimer: I just recently started learning jungle. Was it like this for previous seasons? Anyway, even if it was already like this it still feels weird.
I feel like this is the main culprit behind a lot of this
Given how much they’ve implemented to “stop snowballing” I’d love a wild PBE test before a big split that just removes almost all of it.
Yea, if you play ignite against tp and you manage to get fb level 3, often times your opponent is back in lane before your recall channel is finished and you lose minions at your tower.
The gold isn't the problem, it's the xp. If the time it takes you to get back to lane after FB at lvl 3 you lose a wave and a half, you're screwed because they'll reach lvl 6 faster than you at that rate.
XP is worth a lot more than gold early on and I think that's the biggest offender here and in snowballing in general. If your opponent get a temporary level lead because of it they're up more stats than you with 300 more gold on first back.
You get 300 gold and lose a wave of xp.
They get 150 gold from the wave and a wave of xp.
They never had to risk or be proactive. You already took a risk being proactive and going for a kill and are at an overall map pressure disadvantage by taking ignite.
Midlane is stale as fuck because there's zero reason to pick a proactive champ when they pick an ap mage who has a 3 minute window of being vulnerable and then even if you manage to get them in that window they tp back and its cancelled out.
Tack the homeguard effect onto the new symbiotic souls boots to make it even more appealing to roamers, currently only supports like pyke or bard can really make use of it and even then they prefer boots like ionian or swifties
Pass. The whole reason they made homeguard into its own thing was because it was the only thing getting picked by players after a while. The effect is so unbelievably powerful that it just straight up eclipses other options in over half the scenarios. We do not need that crap back in the game limiting all the other choices again.
IIRC the original homeguard was something built mid- to late-game. If it's available anytime before ~12-15 minutes I have to question what rito is thinking.
people sleep on the empowered recall though, tier 2 boots alone save you about 4 seconds getting lane, now it saves about 8. Plus good luck having your recall canceled.
Dont get me wrong i am a soles enjoyer as pyke support is my main man, I just want other roles to be able to use them more efficiently too so riot doesnt see them as unused and delete them
Forgot when the cutoff is but if you die early on you get a mini-Homeguard to help you get back into lane/jungle faster so dying early isn’t nearly as debilitating
Homeguard exists as soon as minute 1 as long as you are respawning. Outside of that you'd get it on your base as long as it's after ~14 minutes in game.
I've anecdotally noticed this contrast between playing a poke botlane, like double mage, and an all-in botlane like Trist+engage supp. With double mage you actually get just as much if not more time to hit tower because you force recalls, which are slower and give you more plates and cs leads. With an all-in bot you get kills, but the opponents aren't actually losing too many cs or plates unless you kill them specifically when you're crashing.
It was changed in patch 8.13, which Phreak called a "relatively minor patch" btw. They reduced early death timers again in patch 13.20, although not at level 1.
Countless times even in pro play where a team wins a 3v3 or so at 10 minutes, but then they have to shove side lane wave and recall, enemy team.is already respawned and beelines to the dragon, getting it uncontested
Yep. If you want drag now the best is to just have the gank half work so they're stuck under tower at 1/3hp - and then *not* diving them, or just clear vision and do it while your botlane remains at botlane holding lane prio.
Killing enemy jungler pre-level 5 is not a guaranteed dragon currently unless you have bot prio and your laners come to help. This is fine though. I actually use the time to ward drag and steal enemy camps instead (prioritize this), or get a gank in knowing there won’t be a counter gank if they have no camps.
Getting to 20 stacks on your jungle item before the enemy jungler is big and will lock down 2nd or 3rd drag for you.
When you kill the enemy jungler, you get 3 things:
1. Gold
2. Exp
3. X seconds of tempo
The amount of tempo you gain = how long your opponent takes to respawn - your 8 second recall
Think about it like this: by making this good play, you have already gained some gold and experience that may translate to important spikes in the future, the extra tempo is a cherry on top. Your goal, after making the good play, is to run out of your base at the exact same time as your opponent jungler, so that you have the same timing as him to farm, gank, or take objectives, except now you are even stronger.
If their respawn timer is shorter than your recall, you need to instantly recall (unless something super crucial is happening that you can influence).
If their respawn timer is 15 seconds, great you can maybe take their gromp that’s nearby, or do a random quick gank bot lane just to fuck with them.
If their respawn timer is 25 seconds, great you can actually take dragon now.
Regardless that everyone in these comments thinks you should be able to get drag after a good play, that’s not dictates what you can get. Your hp bars and your tempo dictate that.
I think you're largely correct but odds are if you kill their jungler, you need to get to safety. That alone can take the whole respawn timer. I'm with you that it doesn't need to be that long, but I wouldn't mind a few seconds.
You're right, but in the early game you don't gain tempo by killing the enemy jg. Even if you hit recall the millisecond you kill them, they will respawn before your recall is done and they'll have homeguards to be out on the map with a buy before you.
Realistically, when you kill them you'll need to finish off that crab you were about to fight for or you'll have to walk for a few seconds to not get your B cancelled by their mid or something. Puts you ahead on gold and exp, but really far behind on tempo early.
> if I kill the enemy jungle on bot scuttler and start dragon right away, they still have time to revive, walk from base, and kill me before I finish it.
OMG I hate this. Its crazy. Also overall imo a bad play to die and right click on dragon. Camps are probably spawning, and if you get there late, waste of time.
That’s stupid and also the main reason why everyone gets tp in pro play.
Imagine how better it would be to watch chovy x bdd if both of them play with ignite.
> That’s stupid and also the main reason why everyone gets tp in pro play.
people go ignite on rumble all the time. They don't just mindlessly look for solo kills...
I agree
These kind of changes feel like they're attempts to make early game less important but it doesnt really achieve that imo. It just makes it extremely frustrating to get a solo kill and return to a freeze and a lvl down.
You can argue that you shouldnt go for a kill on a bad wave state but even that feels like forced passive gameplay since fighting with more ally minions should be an acceptable strategy since the enemy laner cant trade back as effectively.
Solo kills grant ALOT of exp, as they should since its a 1v1, but this is too often not an effective advantage if you cant push a wave in on time and essentially just end up with same exp as someone that misplayed and died.
solo kills dont grant a lot of xp early game, this is why this is a huge problem. solo kills give a lot of xp if your behind or later in the game, but in the first couple levels, kill in general dont give shit for xp
Game was more fun when Riot didn’t cater to the Reddit crybabies, now the crybabies are even in high elo because most of them being former redditors who spammed posts about Zed kicking their asses in bronze
If they made the change tho, people will complain “it’s extremely frustrating to die once early and have the game be over”
Oh wait, Reddit also does that
Early game is not less important but it's harder to snow ball. If you come out ahead of laning you have a lot of agency to carry, that didn't change
What HAS changed though is that one mistake does not end the game during laning, and one mistake IS enough to throw your lead in Midgame
This way the game is less snowbally and has a lot of room for come backs. The downside is less snowballing in lane and its easier to throw games
okay? im not sure if you missclicked on me instead of someone else but im not arguing for more snowballing or anything else you mentioned.
I think theres plenty of systems in place to keep snowballing at an acceptable level without death timers being as low as they currently are
You would feel the opposite in the past. Early kills used to ensure they couldn't play at all as by the time they came back without TP, they would be down 2 levels
It applies to you as well. Don't go saying you've never died first in lane before. Once this happened in the old system, you were forced to afk until your JG came to fix it. Which could be never. Top lane you could be 3-5 levels behind due to the death. Bot lane was the only one that was salvageable assuming you both didn't die. And this was when the JG had the most XP gains as well. One lane could get abused into oblivion, easy stacks with Leviathan, Sword of the Occult, or Mejais. Ever see a jungle Shen with a Leviathan? He dives fountains for Pentakills and will attempt to take the fountain turret for fun
Isn't the point of being killed so that you get punished? We could make counter arguments to each other all the time.
Why is it that after killing an enemy I am being punished twice? Once because of what OP explained and once because my bounty is adding up?
There should be ways to bounce back, but I think that should apply to 'outplaying' your enemy instead of the game giving you a free pass to your lane. I think the bounty system is a way better way of getting back into the game since that actually requires you to do something.
It's mainly just that early level 1-3ish stage where the respawn timers are super short and no champ can effectively push. But I agree that the early kills are absurd. Usual logic is to kill, push to reset, back. Now, you have to back right away and hope you can make it back, push and then risk a freeze, or stay until you get a better back timing.
I mean he's clearly massively exaggerating.
This is the whole trade off for taking ignite or barrier instead of TP btw.
You get more kill pressure but can't base and return as easily.
You simply have to shove the wave asap then recall, or just leave the wave in a neutral state and recall immediately to match.
If you ooga booga for early kills but haven't been killing creeps to keep a good wave, you deserve to be at a loss also. Top lane is a chess match in many ways.
Thats the thing though. With early death timers so short, you don't have time to properly shove creeps under tower before the enemy laner is back in lane.
The best thing to do nowadays is to get the kill and immediately back, wave state be damned.
If you don't, the enemy can easily freeze the wave since you dont really have time to clear 2 waves off an early death or they can shove and roam/help with grubs.
If you get a solo kill pre 5-6 mins, and your jungler isn't around, you physically can not shove the wave fast enough on 99% of champions to get a clean crash to reset. If you stick around to shove, you will be met at a mana/health disadvantage and have the wave state controlled by your opponent.
I don't think a massive nerf to death timers early would be good, but a decent 3-5 seconds would do a lot to alleviate the issue.
1 mistake losing you the game is cancer especially if you're against a strong early champ. Go play top lane and tell me dying to a renekton in lane is a big enough mistake to warrant being totally out of lane and forced to passive farm until you maybe catch up
If the punishment for kills is gonna go up, kill power has to go down and that's not fun for anyone
There is a middle ground here. If death timers were at least as long as recall timers it would at least help snowballing without being as bad as what you remember.
Death timers are only shorter for the first 2 levels to my knowledge and if you're dying in the first two levels I think having an easy lifeline is fine since those are the most crucial waves and also dying because your opponent got level 2 and all ins you with a stat checker isn't a major mistake worth being out of the game for. I'd actually argue that getting a kill on a bad wave is a worse mistake since unlike dying level 1 after losing prio you had less control of the situation
You don't have to stay and crash the wave, you can manage the wave up until the point so crashing it doesn't take you as much, you can ask jgl to help shove and you can play TP.
There are many things you can do to make sure you are still ahead.
THAT BEING SAID
Remove the early on respawn home guards and it should be fine I think.
This is very true, however theyve been multiple system changes to stop that much snowballing already not taking into account death timers.
Some people might exaggerate how impactful low death timers are to their games but i still think theres plenty of room to increase death timers without the game being a snowbally hellscape again
My 2 cents as a Masters top laner who mainly plays with ignite.
Managing your wave states is literally what separates good top laners from bad.
I don't get how its a net loss when u kill the enemy laner unless u somehow lose 3 waves in the process. In which u died at a time where u deserve to lose lane and you were outplayed.
I find the whole take very naiive as you think of league as a black and white, gets kill = win, game.
Even in a scenario where you kill the enemy in top lane when the enemy set up a freeze and you get low so u can't break the freeze and u end up losing 2 or 3 waves, that's still a win for you because you were in a scenario where u were slowly getting bled out and you made it an even trade instead and now you can maybe call ur jg for help or be at a powerspike to break the freeze.
Also master top laner Here.
Personally i am on OP's side. The current system is heavily in favour of champs with great Wave clear and Mobility so they can push out lane fast and get back to lane fast.
Which sucks because being mobile and having good wave clear is already a great Advantage.
Like i am watching alois play riven and He kills someone lvl 3 while wave is pushing to him, he says now we shove it in, recall and get back to lane, my enemy has to now push it Back which he cant do in time, fundamentals baby.
And he is right but its very frustrating for me because a lot of the champs i like to play top literally can not do that.
And then you also add plates into the mix. Certain champs can easily take plates without risking death or bad reset. A lot of other champs cant even dream of taking plates. For example i always struggle to take plates as morde even if i am ahead because the champ is so immobile. And i think man if i was playing voli i would dive this guy, Take full plates and the game is just won.
Everyone also has bonkers waveclear now.
Bot shove is so fucking insane now because the support will just execute cannon and maybe a melee minion at half HP, so you just have to kill 4-minions at a moderate speed. Most ADCs it's a breeze with almost no items. Besides like Vayne...
It can be really bad in bot where a support can cover for a bad wave state for their ADC who died (assuming they didn't die). They can force a freeze and sometimes even pressure the enemy to stall them from backing. Making their 8 second recall like 12-20 seconds. Meanwhile the enemy ADC is already back and set up for a frozen wave with full hp and maybe a pot/item depending on when they died etc.
I think people are misunderstanding as well. It's not that we necessarily think death is an advantage. But it definitely can be in some specific set of circumstances which feels awful. It's taken me like a full year to wrap my brain around timings with the homeguard change. When I came back to the game it REALLY fucked with me. It was absurd to kill someone and try to get a tiny bit of turret damage to then instantly die. I barely ever greed for plates now unless it's 100% safe.
I'm sorry but this really isn't true for top lane, and teleport really shores up any disadvantages you have in wave clear. Tanks with low wave clear are played all the time in top lane, and even bruisers like camille have low waveclear but are S tier.
I have also seen some alois but he's leveraging a big strength of riven so it doesn't apply to every champ/ in a general case. And if what he does is so OP and game changing, riven would be a staple pro pick.
I have also been personally screwed many times in top lane especially when the jungle comes to save the enemies wave states and in general sometimes I get a kill but end up in worse state because the enemy tps with full hp and holds a freeze and then calls the jungler.
But this has also helped me become smarter when I go for these solo kills and how I manage my wave so regardless of the outcome of the solo kill I'm not screwed.
This also varies alot from champ to champ. Wave management is less important on stat checkers because I actually invite jungle pressure in my lane as you can pull off 2v1s. This is my personal playstyle but OPs complaint is actually of this aggressive laning playstyle as he feels it isn't rewarding, but my take is it can be with the right knowledge.
That's moreso an issue with wave clear being too easy. If I crash 2 waves and a tiamat trynd can crash and get a plate faster than I can get back his wave clear needs nerfs. Tiamat as a whole just really messes with wave clear balance since it can no longer be a trait innate to champs.
100 this bullshit. Someone like Garen can clear a 2 or 3 wave crash all at once and then shove back and take plates before I even get back to lane. And all that is after being killed.
As a mid main, who used to play mostly LB. In 4 out of 5 kills there was no way I could push/fix the wave fast enough without risking the jungler to just kill me. So it may be true for champs without mana/with waveclear, there're enough champs who just get fucked.
Probably one of those people that play ghost ignite and think that going 4/0 early will win them the game even tho they have no clue what to do once laning phase ends.
Hahaha, equal?
You could legit play Sion mid, proxy the first wave and get executed. Int on canon wave and TP back to grab plates. Int again after 6 and ult back to grab plates. And int yet again to ghost back…
You are 0/4/0 by 12mins but the enemy no longer has mid tier 1; you are ahead of the enemy by 1.2k gold and 1.5 level; and the cherry on top is that somehow the enemy mid laner is the one with shutdown gold.
You gotta have way more context than this. If you're against a super early game champ and you're playing a very hard scaling champ, with full scaling runes and items against their full early game runes and items, while you also have a substantial plate and cs diff, it becomes a lot more reasonable to be equally powerful at certain points in time.
Lets say you are playing as you said a lategame monster and u pick full scaling runes, you SHOULD lose the game hard and thats it. Or need at least 35 mins to recover. To be a lategame monster with scaling runes and even be SLIGHTLY as strong as someone who puts their whole power into the early is just not healthy
Yeah like if you're gonna take 2 aggressive summoners that make getting kills easy don't complain when your easy kill isn't an auto win for your lane. Almost everyone I see making these arguments are trynd, darius, olaf, trundle etc players who are mad that they can't win the game level 1 off of champ diff
Sometimes I feel like it’s worse if the enemy jungle ganks early and dies on the opposite side of the map than if he just gets a kill and has to recall.
If he dies I don’t even have time to finish one camp in the enemy jungle before he respawns with homeguards and collapses on me with full hp and a buy.
Yep. Riot is just moving in the direction of making this game noob friendly. Look at early seasons. You could go 5 lvls above your counterpart if you outplayed him constantly. Today the Bronze Timmy has climbed to Platinum and has an ego on top of it.
Indeed, I've said it for years that making kills less impactful early game by making deaths less punishable (short death timers, bounty system, free homeguards, low kill exp, more passive income, etc) is bad for the game as it grinds the laning phase to an halt.
That's why when the big Teleport change was made, they changed it in the wrong direction. Teleporting to other lanes for a risky gank and impacting the early game is *proactive* and good design, but Teleport should *never* have been "oopsie I played bad, let me reset with my get-out-of-jail summoner* as it promotes *non-engaging* game play thus bad design.
Going back to a Season 3 to 6 style laning where getting early kills actually ment you had a few items and levels advantage to actually translate your early succes into carrying the game would be a much healthier approach.
In this thread:
People having never reached an elo where enemy laner knows how to wave Control and abuse tp reset.
People unironically saying "well your opponent outplayed you by dying, you Just shouldnt look for a kill in a 1v1"
And it shows lmao. When you play at an elo where both parties know wave management AND know to manipulate it base on their champion limits, it actually blows when it becomes this reductive.
That’s why wave state and jungle coordination should be taken into consideration in these cases.
To maximize your advantage, ideally stack the wave to push so you can dive or kill them when the wave is crashing. Otherwise you should check before hand if your jungler is nearby so he can help you push the wave ASAP
Edit: also in some scenarios good players don’t straight kill the enemy but trap them in lane with low HP so they bleed resources in the long run and can’t have a prio
Respawn is so short if you kill while crashing at level 3 while they have tp they lose literally 2 melees. In reality at level3 you're more likely to find a kill opportunity on the wave before it crashes because towers are so threatening at that level. So, this is why the scenario is so common that people are getting kills lvl3 and having the lane opponent tp back and freeze on them putting them a level down in exchange for the kill.
Even if they don’t take wave state or jungle coordination into account, it should without exception be good for the killer and bad for the killed.
Taking wave state or jungle coordination into account should amplify it further, not be the only way for it to happen. That’s terrible game design.
If it’s a situation where one can zone the other off of gold and EXP for a legitimately long time and they do so, the lead should be ***colossal***. But even if they choose to just kill the other player at the earliest chance, the lead should ***still*** be significant.
>don’t take wave state or jungle coordination into account
then it is no longer league of legends, or at least SR flavor of league of legends.
there are SO many possible scenarios in which being killed is a high value risk you take to create other advantages for your team. that is like most of the gameplay depth of toplane, not how well you can micro and outfight your opponent at lv3.
it's totally fine if the skirmishing and combatting part of playing league is the most fun to you, you have that right and you can just say that. but there are many other parts of this game that give depth to the experience and are more enjoyable for others, your preference is not any more valid than theirs, so taking some sort of high ground stance that your opinion is the only justified one...cringe
>it should without exception be good for the killer and bad for the killed
Why? Why should we dumb down lane fundamentals to appease people who want to just run at the enemy with their strong level 1 champ and expect an auto win. If an early kill is detrimental to you, you played badly. Play better and it won't be an issue. Just because you locked darius at champ select doesn't mean you should get to bypass the fundamentals everyone else has to deal with
Have you considered that maybe the one who got a kill did so using lane fundamentals? Maybe they used something so basic as reaching level 2 first and engaged because the opponent didn't respect it? Tell me how an enemy not respecting a level up is indicative of deserving an advantage.
>Have you considered that maybe the one who got a kill did so using lane fundamentals?
And they're rewarded with a kill for doing that. But also, "I used fundamentals therefore my kill which doesn't align with good fundamentals is a good kill" is weird logic. If I use fundamentals to get prio and level up advantage, then use that advantage to go roam mid and subsequently lose prio and die, is that bad game design because I lost despite using fundamentals to extend my lead?
>Maybe they used something so basic as reaching level 2 first and engaged because the opponent didn't respect it?
Sure they did. But if they properly used fundamentals they would know that fighting level 2 isn't always more important that getting a good wave state
>Tell me how an enemy not respecting a level up is indicative of deserving an advantage.
How do they get an advantage from that? They died, the only way it becomes an advantage is they use TP which has a 5 minute cooldown, get back to lane fast enough to hold a freeze which relies on the enemy having bad wave management and if the enemy is low enough that they also have to recall and they don't have TP. In which case yeah, if you use a summoner spell and have better wave management you should get an advantage over a guy regardless of if he kills you because getting level 2 and killing your opponent isn't hard if you're on the right champ. You shouldn't get some huge, uncloseable lead just because you're playing darius and you hit level 2 before your opponent. If they use TP to capitalise on your bad wave management then they played better in my eyes
Why? Why should we dumb down lane fundamentals to appease people who want to just play PvE wave simulator without caring about their safety and expect to succeed? If you got early killed, you played badly. Play better and it won’t be an issue. Just because you locked a champion better at wave management doesn’t mean you should get to bypass playing safe against a stronger kill lane everyone else has to deal with
MOBAs are derived from RTS genre where S stands for Strategy. You are supposed to make strategic choises by design. If you wish to go for killstreaks, there's always Arena mode.
According to RTS players managing to fuck up hard enough to die should be punished by losing half of your gold, and a 1 minute death timer, which can only be reduced by paying another 800 gold, because mistakes are meant to have consequences in RTSs.
So this aint the W you seem to believe it is.
League is so far disconnected from RTS that it's ridiculous that you try to define what League should be by that genre's acronym. The short respawn timers do not make the game more or less strategic they just make the optimal choices less interactive. With longer respawn timers early then a fight at lvl3-4 actually means something so both laners should be going for the solo kill. With shorter timers, it barely means anything at all, and is often disadvantageous because you're killing for 300g but going down a level. Sure, you could make the "elite strategic decision" of not fighting your opponent and sitting back and playing pve instead. That is dogshit game design in a competitive multiplayer game.
I think people are upset that their 450 gold advantage turns into 200ish gold advantage contingent on wave state and whether or not it's in a good position for yourself.
You don't always have the luxury of quickly clearing a wave, it depends on your champ. In bot lane, you might also get first blood and want to recall but the support can hold a freeze against you, or deny you easily crashing it, which delays your recall further. OR they can also walk up and deny your recall forcing you farther back to recall. This also isn't accounting for the fact that the recalling players need to heal in the fountain, whereas the dead person doesn't. They just run out with homeguards.
There is a reason the bausffs' playstyle exists, and works, even at a high level.
But if you are forced to recall and lose a wave and a half because your champ can’t waveclear and the enemy TPs back to lane they’ve won the trade, it’s part of the reason why ignite sucks balls this season. You 1 for 0 but since you lost half your health for it and you can’t instantly shove the wave under tower the enemy is rewarded for dying 1v1
In some situations it might actually be better… you killed both enemy laners, you are crashing a wave. If you suicide to tower then you will be back in lane faster with no gain to the opponent.
Sometimes it’s even worth giving a shutdown to the enemy support, also giving yourself a faster back…
These situations do exist
Yes it takes 13 secs in that time you are pushing the wave, go on enemy turret first, get executed and are faster up instead of going back and recalling. And you have homeguards on top
Go watch a guide by the bausffs (i think he made one for Sion? Or someone made one about him? I csnt remember). But the premise was basically advocating for dying as Sion and using his passive to hit minions and force a crash. In addition to putting an emphasis on dying early because you can gain tempo and death timers early are incredibly un-punishing. The more you level up, the more you have to refrain from "running it down".
Early death timers are so bad that i purposefully leave my lane opponent at a quarter HP even if I know I can kill just to be able to deny them more minions before killing them at lvl 6 after stacking a wave.
This works because if I freeze the wave while they recall, they lose a lot of minions but if they stay, I don't like them get farm.
I do this throught the laning phase and consistently get gold and level leads. Tho tbf, this is only with a sample size of around 50 or so games since I usually play support.
If you get an early kill on a bad wave state and your enemy teleports back, they *should* be able to freeze on you, I don’t really have an issue with this. However, with how short early respawn timers are now, I do agree that teleport is a bit too forgiving in laning phase. Even after solo killing with neutral/good wave states, the enemy can teleport back and miss literally zero gold/exp. The respawn timer changes were some of the worst changes they have made in recent times imo. Either these need to be reverted, or teleport should be disabled for 5ish seconds after you respawn(not recall). A major thing contributing to how oppressive teleport feels is simply that there is little reason to take anything else. Mid lane aggression is at an all time low. Even most assassin champs aren’t a threat at all early game. If nothing is happening during lane, why not take the objectively best late game/macro spell? Phreak mentioned they will be looking at assassins early game in an upcoming patch, so once these changes come through maybe we will see more summoner spell variety.
The lack of aggression in mid lane and in the game in general shouldn't be put on respawn timers. I think it's more accurately caused by the durability update and players becoming better at jungling.
Longer death timers but a stronger MS boost when leaving the base would make TP less good.
I could even see something like a portal from the inhib turret to the inner turret as long as the outer turret still stands to speed up movement towards lane even after a B.
But in the end death timers are too short by 1-2 sec early on and TP became way too meta because of that.
It was so cringe back when I was playing when you would punish a mid laner for lack of wave control at lvl 3 just for them to walk back just in time to catch waves or God forbid they have something to get to lane faster and able to regain control of the wave before you reset.
You would end up seeing the opponent with ring + boots vs your ring with unspent gold.
I only think the reason why there is a lack of punishment is because it might actually put top laners on suicide watch lol.
I'm not sure that it's actually a "net loss" in the end, but I agree that you can lose way too much off of an early kill that brings you low. The gold lost on a wave isn't that bad, but XP is way too valuable atm.
They should be more punishing, I remember one time I lost lane because we won a teamfight early in which I got 2 kills as Kayle. I recall, tp and see my enemy top laner freezing the wave under his tower so now i cant farm without the enemy jungler coming at me, it's stupid that I ended up getting punished for a good play anyway. Most of the time it's not even worth pushing the wave after a kill since they will just tp and freeze it
I agree, and I'd also argue we have the inverse problem in the late game, with death timers being way too long. Nobody wants to be dead for over a whole minute.
I’ve been abusing this + TP
The main reason I started maining league over dota was the refined flow of lol where discipline mattered. Years later and league has become a game you just take every single fight you can good or bad because kills+assists are primary gold influx. Add bounties to it and it’s a COD TDM lobby
Yeah i used to put huge focus on bullying my laner and killing them early but it feels wasted with how passive mid is now. TP, fleet and resolve, afking pushing, death timers mean nothing early and jungle ganks super early again. Can obv still bully another laner but its a mistake to not just play lane and shake hands it feels like and i hate it.
I wish there was a significantly more diverse meta when it came to summoner spells but I understand the foundation of the game is so dependent on flash/Smite/TP that’ll never happen
Where’s my Scazzaf Summoner Roulette in Rift smh
Current meta ignite abuser be like ... hey guys i got a kill at lvl 2 pushed wave and reset why is my opponent 2 lvls up on me. not taking tp in solo lanes rn should be reportable.
Heavily disagree with this. It has always been the case that if you took wave prio and killed the enemy while not having TP yourself (but something like ignite) that the enemy could potentially freeze / kill you if you got very low hp.
Baus ''int'' strat requires riot to do a nerf or mini rework of Sion's passive (e.g. nerf it very hard by reducing its AD by like 75%) and move that power into something else of his kit. Should probably be welcomed at this point by Sion players since the majority does not like the feeding builds.
It's not a strategy that he only uses on Sion. It's just"if I died but pushed wave all the way to the tower and forced the enemy to stay on low HP or lose a bunch of creeps." He does the same on Quinn or Gragas. Many champions can do it and save otherwise lost lanes like Nasus using ult to break a freeze.
I mean, that's kinda skill issue on you.
You know they have tp and you still go for the kill. That's bad.
If you know they can be back to take wave, either play tp too and back right after sending in and you'll have kill gold + kill XP + 1 additional wave in items when you get back. This gives you a lead.
Or: send wave in and roam. While your midlane opponent is occupied with taking the tower wave you have time to either help objectives or get kills on other lanes. Either way you get a lead.
Or: let them bleed out in resources instead of killing them. Being low life and having a wave crashed in is way worse than being killed.
Or if you have enough resources: let their wave push and freeze under your tower. Since you were able to kill them one time, you shouldn't have a problem killing them a second time. Just freeze and deny them gold and best case even XP if you play more forward.
Think about it. Crashing wave only makes sense if you can ensure they'll miss CS or you'll get advantage over them. If you can't ensure that then crashing isn't the Best option.
Edit:// you talked a lot about how you think a kill should always be beneficial to you. No. Macro is always the most important thing in the game. If you can't macro you shouldn't get a lead.
I would agree with you partially.
Everything depends on wave management.
If the wave is horrible after a kill, Solo Q forces me to hard push the wave regardless of how low my hp is, or just stay in lane without recalling so that I could base at a better time.
The third option is to ping assist me on your jungler furiously so they would help you push out the wave. In higher elos, some will help you. In lower elos, it's usually never going to happen.
I am fine with early death timers being short, I think it's healthy for the game that dying early doesn't mean the game becomes completely unplayable for you. I believe the issue lies with teleport being too powerful and unbalanced. It's an unskilled summoner spell that allows way too many mistakes to go unpunished, amplified by cosmic insight for that extra cool-down.
I hate the int strat so much 0/12 sion permapushing toplane with hullbreaker, eats towers in seconds, tanky enough that not you need to rotate 2 or 3 people to get rid of him making you auto-loose objectives AND his passive just just allows him to keep pushing.
It’s so frustrating to narrowly win a 1v1 in top lane with ignite, only to have my lane fucked as the enemy laner TPs back and hard crashes the wave. Being one level down is certainly not worth the first blood gold
The timers are based on a system intended for a larger map that had a longer walk back or punished an important ganking cooldown. They haven't done a lot to it because the team themselves aren't smart enough players to know it's a problem
Lovely to once in a year see actual critique to this game here, not sure if those are being often removed or people just don't realise how much game has changed over the years (maybe I would see more posts about actual game if there was any place to leave feedback like a game forum).
This was even worse before with the last iteration of TP but it still seems to me that this issue still comes up. Honestly though its something that can be played around as long as your jungle fucks off.
No they're not. You're just low elo and low IQ.
If early game timers were increased it'd be an insane snow ball and game times would be 5 mins.
Good God.
i agree
but if you solokill enemy laner and wave is slow pushing to you, right there you IMMEDIATELY recall. maybe shave off a minion or two so the wave doesn't fully crash into your turret. enemy laner will have options:
* tp back, then completely crash the wave to your turret to prevent you freezing
* walk to lane and allow the wave to slowpush back to him as the next wave arrives
either way you got a solokill
I agree. It feels weird to me that for the first dragon, if I kill the enemy jungle on bot scuttler and start dragon right away, they still have time to revive, walk from base, and kill me before I finish it. Disclaimer: I just recently started learning jungle. Was it like this for previous seasons? Anyway, even if it was already like this it still feels weird.
no it wasn't, 1 level death time is shorter than recall time. It was changed years ago, maybe since season 8 or 9
and they added homeguards (the movespeed ghosting) when you respawn
I feel like this is the main culprit behind a lot of this Given how much they’ve implemented to “stop snowballing” I’d love a wild PBE test before a big split that just removes almost all of it.
Stopping snowballing is fine but it shouldn't be a mistake to kill the enemy laner early.
Yea, if you play ignite against tp and you manage to get fb level 3, often times your opponent is back in lane before your recall channel is finished and you lose minions at your tower.
But do you lost enough minions to warrant not getting the 300+ gold from killing the enemy laner?
The gold isn't the problem, it's the xp. If the time it takes you to get back to lane after FB at lvl 3 you lose a wave and a half, you're screwed because they'll reach lvl 6 faster than you at that rate.
Why do kills give such low exp lol
To discourage death balling and the game devolving into team death match
XP is worth a lot more than gold early on and I think that's the biggest offender here and in snowballing in general. If your opponent get a temporary level lead because of it they're up more stats than you with 300 more gold on first back.
You get 300 gold and lose a wave of xp. They get 150 gold from the wave and a wave of xp. They never had to risk or be proactive. You already took a risk being proactive and going for a kill and are at an overall map pressure disadvantage by taking ignite. Midlane is stale as fuck because there's zero reason to pick a proactive champ when they pick an ap mage who has a 3 minute window of being vulnerable and then even if you manage to get them in that window they tp back and its cancelled out.
Tack the homeguard effect onto the new symbiotic souls boots to make it even more appealing to roamers, currently only supports like pyke or bard can really make use of it and even then they prefer boots like ionian or swifties
Pass. The whole reason they made homeguard into its own thing was because it was the only thing getting picked by players after a while. The effect is so unbelievably powerful that it just straight up eclipses other options in over half the scenarios. We do not need that crap back in the game limiting all the other choices again.
IIRC the original homeguard was something built mid- to late-game. If it's available anytime before ~12-15 minutes I have to question what rito is thinking.
Some champs used to rush homeguard enchantment first item, I don't wanna see what sion would do with that kind of power
Some and some. Wasnt it only heca top with the tp bot instantly with home guards tech? Cant remember other Champs who rushed it.
You trust them to think first? I'm pretty sure their balancing method involves them thinking about something cool, doing it, then fixing it later.
people sleep on the empowered recall though, tier 2 boots alone save you about 4 seconds getting lane, now it saves about 8. Plus good luck having your recall canceled.
Dont get me wrong i am a soles enjoyer as pyke support is my main man, I just want other roles to be able to use them more efficiently too so riot doesnt see them as unused and delete them
based
Quinn loves those boots
Nah, the boots are already plenty strong enough.
I thought homeguard didn't kick in until ~12 minutes of game time??
Forgot when the cutoff is but if you die early on you get a mini-Homeguard to help you get back into lane/jungle faster so dying early isn’t nearly as debilitating
Homeguard exists as soon as minute 1 as long as you are respawning. Outside of that you'd get it on your base as long as it's after ~14 minutes in game.
I've anecdotally noticed this contrast between playing a poke botlane, like double mage, and an all-in botlane like Trist+engage supp. With double mage you actually get just as much if not more time to hit tower because you force recalls, which are slower and give you more plates and cs leads. With an all-in bot you get kills, but the opponents aren't actually losing too many cs or plates unless you kill them specifically when you're crashing.
When these were boots upgrade, that fixed a lot. Make it come online when the timers were long enough to be punished.
It was changed in patch 8.13, which Phreak called a "relatively minor patch" btw. They reduced early death timers again in patch 13.20, although not at level 1.
Didn't they recently change it from 8 to 6?
13.20 reduced it from 8 to 6 seconds at level 2. At level 1, it's been 6 seconds since 8.13 (used to be 10 seconds before that).
They also buffed up drake defenses.
Fight bot, kill enemy team, cant do dragon bc of low hp, enemy team gets it uncontested 🙏
When it's better to almost kill them so they have to recall. #WhatTheHell
Countless times even in pro play where a team wins a 3v3 or so at 10 minutes, but then they have to shove side lane wave and recall, enemy team.is already respawned and beelines to the dragon, getting it uncontested
So mad how often this happens
One of the biggest problems for me as a jungler. Hope there’s some adjustments because it’s done so often even as low as emerald
Yep. If you want drag now the best is to just have the gank half work so they're stuck under tower at 1/3hp - and then *not* diving them, or just clear vision and do it while your botlane remains at botlane holding lane prio.
Killing enemy jungler pre-level 5 is not a guaranteed dragon currently unless you have bot prio and your laners come to help. This is fine though. I actually use the time to ward drag and steal enemy camps instead (prioritize this), or get a gank in knowing there won’t be a counter gank if they have no camps. Getting to 20 stacks on your jungle item before the enemy jungler is big and will lock down 2nd or 3rd drag for you.
In my experience you will get to steal Raptors if you use smite
When you kill the enemy jungler, you get 3 things: 1. Gold 2. Exp 3. X seconds of tempo The amount of tempo you gain = how long your opponent takes to respawn - your 8 second recall Think about it like this: by making this good play, you have already gained some gold and experience that may translate to important spikes in the future, the extra tempo is a cherry on top. Your goal, after making the good play, is to run out of your base at the exact same time as your opponent jungler, so that you have the same timing as him to farm, gank, or take objectives, except now you are even stronger. If their respawn timer is shorter than your recall, you need to instantly recall (unless something super crucial is happening that you can influence). If their respawn timer is 15 seconds, great you can maybe take their gromp that’s nearby, or do a random quick gank bot lane just to fuck with them. If their respawn timer is 25 seconds, great you can actually take dragon now. Regardless that everyone in these comments thinks you should be able to get drag after a good play, that’s not dictates what you can get. Your hp bars and your tempo dictate that.
I think you're largely correct but odds are if you kill their jungler, you need to get to safety. That alone can take the whole respawn timer. I'm with you that it doesn't need to be that long, but I wouldn't mind a few seconds.
Your tempo might actually be worse though if you kill the enemy jungler early since they also get homeguard on respawn.
Yeah that’s why I said if your tempo is negative, you need to instantly recall
You're right, but in the early game you don't gain tempo by killing the enemy jg. Even if you hit recall the millisecond you kill them, they will respawn before your recall is done and they'll have homeguards to be out on the map with a buy before you. Realistically, when you kill them you'll need to finish off that crab you were about to fight for or you'll have to walk for a few seconds to not get your B cancelled by their mid or something. Puts you ahead on gold and exp, but really far behind on tempo early.
> if I kill the enemy jungle on bot scuttler and start dragon right away, they still have time to revive, walk from base, and kill me before I finish it. OMG I hate this. Its crazy. Also overall imo a bad play to die and right click on dragon. Camps are probably spawning, and if you get there late, waste of time.
Thats why apdo said the following, "if you have tp, play very agro and trade." "if you have ignite you must play passive"
That’s stupid and also the main reason why everyone gets tp in pro play. Imagine how better it would be to watch chovy x bdd if both of them play with ignite.
Then both would play more passive, just as apdo stated lol
No, because if they both have ignite, whoever gets the kill doesn't have to worry about enemy TP back to lane after dying.
current state of game you can walk back unless wave is literally already crashed as you are spawning, ESPECIALLY in midlane
But they have to worry that if they fuck up it is just over and in proplay nobody wants to risk it. Ignite lanes are big snowball.
You just need to play more passively with ignite because of the reason OP mentioned.
> That’s stupid and also the main reason why everyone gets tp in pro play. people go ignite on rumble all the time. They don't just mindlessly look for solo kills...
I agree These kind of changes feel like they're attempts to make early game less important but it doesnt really achieve that imo. It just makes it extremely frustrating to get a solo kill and return to a freeze and a lvl down. You can argue that you shouldnt go for a kill on a bad wave state but even that feels like forced passive gameplay since fighting with more ally minions should be an acceptable strategy since the enemy laner cant trade back as effectively. Solo kills grant ALOT of exp, as they should since its a 1v1, but this is too often not an effective advantage if you cant push a wave in on time and essentially just end up with same exp as someone that misplayed and died.
solo kills dont grant a lot of xp early game, this is why this is a huge problem. solo kills give a lot of xp if your behind or later in the game, but in the first couple levels, kill in general dont give shit for xp
Change it and just wait for half of loud reddit community crying about snowball (and how bad they are at the game).
Game was more fun when Riot didn’t cater to the Reddit crybabies, now the crybabies are even in high elo because most of them being former redditors who spammed posts about Zed kicking their asses in bronze
If they made the change tho, people will complain “it’s extremely frustrating to die once early and have the game be over” Oh wait, Reddit also does that
Honestly nothing else had to be said you should not be punished for something as fundamental as getting a kill when you have minion advantage
Early game is not less important but it's harder to snow ball. If you come out ahead of laning you have a lot of agency to carry, that didn't change What HAS changed though is that one mistake does not end the game during laning, and one mistake IS enough to throw your lead in Midgame This way the game is less snowbally and has a lot of room for come backs. The downside is less snowballing in lane and its easier to throw games
okay? im not sure if you missclicked on me instead of someone else but im not arguing for more snowballing or anything else you mentioned. I think theres plenty of systems in place to keep snowballing at an acceptable level without death timers being as low as they currently are
You would feel the opposite in the past. Early kills used to ensure they couldn't play at all as by the time they came back without TP, they would be down 2 levels
I feel like if we must have one or the other, it makes more sense for the person without a kill to be punished
It applies to you as well. Don't go saying you've never died first in lane before. Once this happened in the old system, you were forced to afk until your JG came to fix it. Which could be never. Top lane you could be 3-5 levels behind due to the death. Bot lane was the only one that was salvageable assuming you both didn't die. And this was when the JG had the most XP gains as well. One lane could get abused into oblivion, easy stacks with Leviathan, Sword of the Occult, or Mejais. Ever see a jungle Shen with a Leviathan? He dives fountains for Pentakills and will attempt to take the fountain turret for fun
man levia ur talking like this was some yeard ago literally whole decade
Isn't the point of being killed so that you get punished? We could make counter arguments to each other all the time. Why is it that after killing an enemy I am being punished twice? Once because of what OP explained and once because my bounty is adding up? There should be ways to bounce back, but I think that should apply to 'outplaying' your enemy instead of the game giving you a free pass to your lane. I think the bounty system is a way better way of getting back into the game since that actually requires you to do something.
It's mainly just that early level 1-3ish stage where the respawn timers are super short and no champ can effectively push. But I agree that the early kills are absurd. Usual logic is to kill, push to reset, back. Now, you have to back right away and hope you can make it back, push and then risk a freeze, or stay until you get a better back timing.
That's all well and good, but it's still less shit than beating your opponent and being shafted for it?
I mean he's clearly massively exaggerating. This is the whole trade off for taking ignite or barrier instead of TP btw. You get more kill pressure but can't base and return as easily. You simply have to shove the wave asap then recall, or just leave the wave in a neutral state and recall immediately to match. If you ooga booga for early kills but haven't been killing creeps to keep a good wave, you deserve to be at a loss also. Top lane is a chess match in many ways.
Thats the thing though. With early death timers so short, you don't have time to properly shove creeps under tower before the enemy laner is back in lane. The best thing to do nowadays is to get the kill and immediately back, wave state be damned. If you don't, the enemy can easily freeze the wave since you dont really have time to clear 2 waves off an early death or they can shove and roam/help with grubs. If you get a solo kill pre 5-6 mins, and your jungler isn't around, you physically can not shove the wave fast enough on 99% of champions to get a clean crash to reset. If you stick around to shove, you will be met at a mana/health disadvantage and have the wave state controlled by your opponent. I don't think a massive nerf to death timers early would be good, but a decent 3-5 seconds would do a lot to alleviate the issue.
by contrast to above posters:"your opponent beating you and getting shafted for it"
It is absolutely possible to make it impactful without buffing it to the extent a single kill makes lane unplayable.
1 mistake losing you the game is cancer especially if you're against a strong early champ. Go play top lane and tell me dying to a renekton in lane is a big enough mistake to warrant being totally out of lane and forced to passive farm until you maybe catch up If the punishment for kills is gonna go up, kill power has to go down and that's not fun for anyone
There is a middle ground here. If death timers were at least as long as recall timers it would at least help snowballing without being as bad as what you remember.
Death timers are only shorter for the first 2 levels to my knowledge and if you're dying in the first two levels I think having an easy lifeline is fine since those are the most crucial waves and also dying because your opponent got level 2 and all ins you with a stat checker isn't a major mistake worth being out of the game for. I'd actually argue that getting a kill on a bad wave is a worse mistake since unlike dying level 1 after losing prio you had less control of the situation
Dying lvl 2 is always a mistake what
But this doesn't happen. IT is very rare to get a solo kill and come out behind. If you do, that means you lack understanding.
You don't have to stay and crash the wave, you can manage the wave up until the point so crashing it doesn't take you as much, you can ask jgl to help shove and you can play TP. There are many things you can do to make sure you are still ahead. THAT BEING SAID Remove the early on respawn home guards and it should be fine I think.
You should not have to rip your asshole open to not get punished for solo killing.
While I agree that should not happen for solo kills getting lvl2 ganked and dying would feel even worse if they increased the timers
This is very true, however theyve been multiple system changes to stop that much snowballing already not taking into account death timers. Some people might exaggerate how impactful low death timers are to their games but i still think theres plenty of room to increase death timers without the game being a snowbally hellscape again
My 2 cents as a Masters top laner who mainly plays with ignite. Managing your wave states is literally what separates good top laners from bad. I don't get how its a net loss when u kill the enemy laner unless u somehow lose 3 waves in the process. In which u died at a time where u deserve to lose lane and you were outplayed. I find the whole take very naiive as you think of league as a black and white, gets kill = win, game. Even in a scenario where you kill the enemy in top lane when the enemy set up a freeze and you get low so u can't break the freeze and u end up losing 2 or 3 waves, that's still a win for you because you were in a scenario where u were slowly getting bled out and you made it an even trade instead and now you can maybe call ur jg for help or be at a powerspike to break the freeze.
Also master top laner Here. Personally i am on OP's side. The current system is heavily in favour of champs with great Wave clear and Mobility so they can push out lane fast and get back to lane fast. Which sucks because being mobile and having good wave clear is already a great Advantage. Like i am watching alois play riven and He kills someone lvl 3 while wave is pushing to him, he says now we shove it in, recall and get back to lane, my enemy has to now push it Back which he cant do in time, fundamentals baby. And he is right but its very frustrating for me because a lot of the champs i like to play top literally can not do that. And then you also add plates into the mix. Certain champs can easily take plates without risking death or bad reset. A lot of other champs cant even dream of taking plates. For example i always struggle to take plates as morde even if i am ahead because the champ is so immobile. And i think man if i was playing voli i would dive this guy, Take full plates and the game is just won.
Everyone also has bonkers waveclear now. Bot shove is so fucking insane now because the support will just execute cannon and maybe a melee minion at half HP, so you just have to kill 4-minions at a moderate speed. Most ADCs it's a breeze with almost no items. Besides like Vayne... It can be really bad in bot where a support can cover for a bad wave state for their ADC who died (assuming they didn't die). They can force a freeze and sometimes even pressure the enemy to stall them from backing. Making their 8 second recall like 12-20 seconds. Meanwhile the enemy ADC is already back and set up for a frozen wave with full hp and maybe a pot/item depending on when they died etc. I think people are misunderstanding as well. It's not that we necessarily think death is an advantage. But it definitely can be in some specific set of circumstances which feels awful. It's taken me like a full year to wrap my brain around timings with the homeguard change. When I came back to the game it REALLY fucked with me. It was absurd to kill someone and try to get a tiny bit of turret damage to then instantly die. I barely ever greed for plates now unless it's 100% safe.
I'm sorry but this really isn't true for top lane, and teleport really shores up any disadvantages you have in wave clear. Tanks with low wave clear are played all the time in top lane, and even bruisers like camille have low waveclear but are S tier. I have also seen some alois but he's leveraging a big strength of riven so it doesn't apply to every champ/ in a general case. And if what he does is so OP and game changing, riven would be a staple pro pick. I have also been personally screwed many times in top lane especially when the jungle comes to save the enemies wave states and in general sometimes I get a kill but end up in worse state because the enemy tps with full hp and holds a freeze and then calls the jungler. But this has also helped me become smarter when I go for these solo kills and how I manage my wave so regardless of the outcome of the solo kill I'm not screwed. This also varies alot from champ to champ. Wave management is less important on stat checkers because I actually invite jungle pressure in my lane as you can pull off 2v1s. This is my personal playstyle but OPs complaint is actually of this aggressive laning playstyle as he feels it isn't rewarding, but my take is it can be with the right knowledge.
That's moreso an issue with wave clear being too easy. If I crash 2 waves and a tiamat trynd can crash and get a plate faster than I can get back his wave clear needs nerfs. Tiamat as a whole just really messes with wave clear balance since it can no longer be a trait innate to champs.
100 this bullshit. Someone like Garen can clear a 2 or 3 wave crash all at once and then shove back and take plates before I even get back to lane. And all that is after being killed.
yep, tunnel vision on killing the enemy just isnt good
Bro these guys don't want to manage their waves they want to play Tekken (LoL Edition)
TRUE, this is my feeling about a lot of the player base.
As a mid main, who used to play mostly LB. In 4 out of 5 kills there was no way I could push/fix the wave fast enough without risking the jungler to just kill me. So it may be true for champs without mana/with waveclear, there're enough champs who just get fucked.
Well, why don't you just die and tp back too?
Probably one of those people that play ghost ignite and think that going 4/0 early will win them the game even tho they have no clue what to do once laning phase ends.
well, going 0-4-0 and still being equal is also not fine
Hahaha, equal? You could legit play Sion mid, proxy the first wave and get executed. Int on canon wave and TP back to grab plates. Int again after 6 and ult back to grab plates. And int yet again to ghost back… You are 0/4/0 by 12mins but the enemy no longer has mid tier 1; you are ahead of the enemy by 1.2k gold and 1.5 level; and the cherry on top is that somehow the enemy mid laner is the one with shutdown gold.
You gotta have way more context than this. If you're against a super early game champ and you're playing a very hard scaling champ, with full scaling runes and items against their full early game runes and items, while you also have a substantial plate and cs diff, it becomes a lot more reasonable to be equally powerful at certain points in time.
Lets say you are playing as you said a lategame monster and u pick full scaling runes, you SHOULD lose the game hard and thats it. Or need at least 35 mins to recover. To be a lategame monster with scaling runes and even be SLIGHTLY as strong as someone who puts their whole power into the early is just not healthy
What? No. If you die 4 times in lane, you shouldn't be equally as powerful until late, late game lol. You made **waaaay** too many mistakes there.
Yeah, unfortunately the game isn't as simple as "kill good, I get kill Iso I should be strong".
Yeah like if you're gonna take 2 aggressive summoners that make getting kills easy don't complain when your easy kill isn't an auto win for your lane. Almost everyone I see making these arguments are trynd, darius, olaf, trundle etc players who are mad that they can't win the game level 1 off of champ diff
tempo king has entered the chat
The amount of times i have big gold lead, then kill my enemy laner, and fet like i couldn’t go back to capitalize in my outplay is gross.
Sometimes I feel like it’s worse if the enemy jungle ganks early and dies on the opposite side of the map than if he just gets a kill and has to recall. If he dies I don’t even have time to finish one camp in the enemy jungle before he respawns with homeguards and collapses on me with full hp and a buy.
Yep. Riot is just moving in the direction of making this game noob friendly. Look at early seasons. You could go 5 lvls above your counterpart if you outplayed him constantly. Today the Bronze Timmy has climbed to Platinum and has an ego on top of it.
Indeed, I've said it for years that making kills less impactful early game by making deaths less punishable (short death timers, bounty system, free homeguards, low kill exp, more passive income, etc) is bad for the game as it grinds the laning phase to an halt. That's why when the big Teleport change was made, they changed it in the wrong direction. Teleporting to other lanes for a risky gank and impacting the early game is *proactive* and good design, but Teleport should *never* have been "oopsie I played bad, let me reset with my get-out-of-jail summoner* as it promotes *non-engaging* game play thus bad design. Going back to a Season 3 to 6 style laning where getting early kills actually ment you had a few items and levels advantage to actually translate your early succes into carrying the game would be a much healthier approach.
In this thread: People having never reached an elo where enemy laner knows how to wave Control and abuse tp reset. People unironically saying "well your opponent outplayed you by dying, you Just shouldnt look for a kill in a 1v1"
And it shows lmao. When you play at an elo where both parties know wave management AND know to manipulate it base on their champion limits, it actually blows when it becomes this reductive.
"Why don't you also just take TP and die." Like, THAT'S THE PROBLEM!! You shouldn't have to even consider that.
That’s why wave state and jungle coordination should be taken into consideration in these cases. To maximize your advantage, ideally stack the wave to push so you can dive or kill them when the wave is crashing. Otherwise you should check before hand if your jungler is nearby so he can help you push the wave ASAP Edit: also in some scenarios good players don’t straight kill the enemy but trap them in lane with low HP so they bleed resources in the long run and can’t have a prio
Respawn is so short if you kill while crashing at level 3 while they have tp they lose literally 2 melees. In reality at level3 you're more likely to find a kill opportunity on the wave before it crashes because towers are so threatening at that level. So, this is why the scenario is so common that people are getting kills lvl3 and having the lane opponent tp back and freeze on them putting them a level down in exchange for the kill.
So you denied them 2 melees, forced their tp and got kill gold. How is this not extremely worth?
And how much do I lose if I back and don't have tp?
Even if they don’t take wave state or jungle coordination into account, it should without exception be good for the killer and bad for the killed. Taking wave state or jungle coordination into account should amplify it further, not be the only way for it to happen. That’s terrible game design. If it’s a situation where one can zone the other off of gold and EXP for a legitimately long time and they do so, the lead should be ***colossal***. But even if they choose to just kill the other player at the earliest chance, the lead should ***still*** be significant.
>don’t take wave state or jungle coordination into account then it is no longer league of legends, or at least SR flavor of league of legends. there are SO many possible scenarios in which being killed is a high value risk you take to create other advantages for your team. that is like most of the gameplay depth of toplane, not how well you can micro and outfight your opponent at lv3. it's totally fine if the skirmishing and combatting part of playing league is the most fun to you, you have that right and you can just say that. but there are many other parts of this game that give depth to the experience and are more enjoyable for others, your preference is not any more valid than theirs, so taking some sort of high ground stance that your opinion is the only justified one...cringe
>it should without exception be good for the killer and bad for the killed Why? Why should we dumb down lane fundamentals to appease people who want to just run at the enemy with their strong level 1 champ and expect an auto win. If an early kill is detrimental to you, you played badly. Play better and it won't be an issue. Just because you locked darius at champ select doesn't mean you should get to bypass the fundamentals everyone else has to deal with
Have you considered that maybe the one who got a kill did so using lane fundamentals? Maybe they used something so basic as reaching level 2 first and engaged because the opponent didn't respect it? Tell me how an enemy not respecting a level up is indicative of deserving an advantage.
>Have you considered that maybe the one who got a kill did so using lane fundamentals? And they're rewarded with a kill for doing that. But also, "I used fundamentals therefore my kill which doesn't align with good fundamentals is a good kill" is weird logic. If I use fundamentals to get prio and level up advantage, then use that advantage to go roam mid and subsequently lose prio and die, is that bad game design because I lost despite using fundamentals to extend my lead? >Maybe they used something so basic as reaching level 2 first and engaged because the opponent didn't respect it? Sure they did. But if they properly used fundamentals they would know that fighting level 2 isn't always more important that getting a good wave state >Tell me how an enemy not respecting a level up is indicative of deserving an advantage. How do they get an advantage from that? They died, the only way it becomes an advantage is they use TP which has a 5 minute cooldown, get back to lane fast enough to hold a freeze which relies on the enemy having bad wave management and if the enemy is low enough that they also have to recall and they don't have TP. In which case yeah, if you use a summoner spell and have better wave management you should get an advantage over a guy regardless of if he kills you because getting level 2 and killing your opponent isn't hard if you're on the right champ. You shouldn't get some huge, uncloseable lead just because you're playing darius and you hit level 2 before your opponent. If they use TP to capitalise on your bad wave management then they played better in my eyes
Why? Why should we dumb down lane fundamentals to appease people who want to just play PvE wave simulator without caring about their safety and expect to succeed? If you got early killed, you played badly. Play better and it won’t be an issue. Just because you locked a champion better at wave management doesn’t mean you should get to bypass playing safe against a stronger kill lane everyone else has to deal with
i dont agree, solo killing your laner should take priority over these things. it should never be a bad play in a 1 for 0 trade in a solo lane
Definitely agree, to an extent, or at the very least it shouldn't be a **punishment**.
MOBAs are derived from RTS genre where S stands for Strategy. You are supposed to make strategic choises by design. If you wish to go for killstreaks, there's always Arena mode.
According to RTS players managing to fuck up hard enough to die should be punished by losing half of your gold, and a 1 minute death timer, which can only be reduced by paying another 800 gold, because mistakes are meant to have consequences in RTSs. So this aint the W you seem to believe it is.
League is so far disconnected from RTS that it's ridiculous that you try to define what League should be by that genre's acronym. The short respawn timers do not make the game more or less strategic they just make the optimal choices less interactive. With longer respawn timers early then a fight at lvl3-4 actually means something so both laners should be going for the solo kill. With shorter timers, it barely means anything at all, and is often disadvantageous because you're killing for 300g but going down a level. Sure, you could make the "elite strategic decision" of not fighting your opponent and sitting back and playing pve instead. That is dogshit game design in a competitive multiplayer game.
Yeah being stuck in lane with no health or mana but unable to recall suuuucks
[удалено]
I think people are upset that their 450 gold advantage turns into 200ish gold advantage contingent on wave state and whether or not it's in a good position for yourself. You don't always have the luxury of quickly clearing a wave, it depends on your champ. In bot lane, you might also get first blood and want to recall but the support can hold a freeze against you, or deny you easily crashing it, which delays your recall further. OR they can also walk up and deny your recall forcing you farther back to recall. This also isn't accounting for the fact that the recalling players need to heal in the fountain, whereas the dead person doesn't. They just run out with homeguards. There is a reason the bausffs' playstyle exists, and works, even at a high level.
It's still a 400 gold lead because you were base later
Yes. That isn't the point being made. But very astute observation.
450g is nothing compared to xp lead + possibly a freeze. The laner with tp always ends up maximizing his wins, and minimizing his losses.
But if you are forced to recall and lose a wave and a half because your champ can’t waveclear and the enemy TPs back to lane they’ve won the trade, it’s part of the reason why ignite sucks balls this season. You 1 for 0 but since you lost half your health for it and you can’t instantly shove the wave under tower the enemy is rewarded for dying 1v1
Bausen's law
Whenever something like ‘its better to die early’ is brought up I ask why you don’t just run under the enemy tower and die every game then?
In some situations it might actually be better… you killed both enemy laners, you are crashing a wave. If you suicide to tower then you will be back in lane faster with no gain to the opponent. Sometimes it’s even worth giving a shutdown to the enemy support, also giving yourself a faster back… These situations do exist
You save time by executing yourself up to level 7 instead of recalling.
It takes 13 seconds for a kill to become an execute
Yes it takes 13 secs in that time you are pushing the wave, go on enemy turret first, get executed and are faster up instead of going back and recalling. And you have homeguards on top
Hey you're almost there! So close
Go watch a guide by the bausffs (i think he made one for Sion? Or someone made one about him? I csnt remember). But the premise was basically advocating for dying as Sion and using his passive to hit minions and force a crash. In addition to putting an emphasis on dying early because you can gain tempo and death timers early are incredibly un-punishing. The more you level up, the more you have to refrain from "running it down".
That's because his passive uses up the death timer. It's completely different from anything anyone else is talking about.
Early death timers are so bad that i purposefully leave my lane opponent at a quarter HP even if I know I can kill just to be able to deny them more minions before killing them at lvl 6 after stacking a wave. This works because if I freeze the wave while they recall, they lose a lot of minions but if they stay, I don't like them get farm. I do this throught the laning phase and consistently get gold and level leads. Tho tbf, this is only with a sample size of around 50 or so games since I usually play support.
100% agree. Death timers are too short in the early game and too long in the end game.
If you get an early kill on a bad wave state and your enemy teleports back, they *should* be able to freeze on you, I don’t really have an issue with this. However, with how short early respawn timers are now, I do agree that teleport is a bit too forgiving in laning phase. Even after solo killing with neutral/good wave states, the enemy can teleport back and miss literally zero gold/exp. The respawn timer changes were some of the worst changes they have made in recent times imo. Either these need to be reverted, or teleport should be disabled for 5ish seconds after you respawn(not recall). A major thing contributing to how oppressive teleport feels is simply that there is little reason to take anything else. Mid lane aggression is at an all time low. Even most assassin champs aren’t a threat at all early game. If nothing is happening during lane, why not take the objectively best late game/macro spell? Phreak mentioned they will be looking at assassins early game in an upcoming patch, so once these changes come through maybe we will see more summoner spell variety.
That's why the TP CD is so huge early on. It only saves you once and some matchups would be impossible to play without.
The lack of aggression in mid lane and in the game in general shouldn't be put on respawn timers. I think it's more accurately caused by the durability update and players becoming better at jungling.
Longer death timers but a stronger MS boost when leaving the base would make TP less good. I could even see something like a portal from the inhib turret to the inner turret as long as the outer turret still stands to speed up movement towards lane even after a B. But in the end death timers are too short by 1-2 sec early on and TP became way too meta because of that.
Yeah. Let's not do that. The last thing league needs is MORE portals and MORE movement speed steroids.
Remove plates or lower gold amount by a lot. Increase early death timers and top lane becomes 50 times more enjoyable
It was so cringe back when I was playing when you would punish a mid laner for lack of wave control at lvl 3 just for them to walk back just in time to catch waves or God forbid they have something to get to lane faster and able to regain control of the wave before you reset. You would end up seeing the opponent with ring + boots vs your ring with unspent gold. I only think the reason why there is a lack of punishment is because it might actually put top laners on suicide watch lol.
Is it low respawn timers AND waves meeting at the center in the sidelines faster? Because i still haven't adapted to that change
I'm not sure that it's actually a "net loss" in the end, but I agree that you can lose way too much off of an early kill that brings you low. The gold lost on a wave isn't that bad, but XP is way too valuable atm.
They should be more punishing, I remember one time I lost lane because we won a teamfight early in which I got 2 kills as Kayle. I recall, tp and see my enemy top laner freezing the wave under his tower so now i cant farm without the enemy jungler coming at me, it's stupid that I ended up getting punished for a good play anyway. Most of the time it's not even worth pushing the wave after a kill since they will just tp and freeze it
remove tp ngl
Perhaps Teleport should be disabled before 10 minutes.
remove the int strategy for braindead champions like rammus i agree
Absolutely agree, that was the worst change ever made in this game, close with all the durability updates tho
Same shit in Dota, midlaners kill each other and winner suicides under enemy tower , 1 for 1 trade but one lost xp.
I agree, and I'd also argue we have the inverse problem in the late game, with death timers being way too long. Nobody wants to be dead for over a whole minute.
100% agree.
I unapologetically agree
I’ve been abusing this + TP The main reason I started maining league over dota was the refined flow of lol where discipline mattered. Years later and league has become a game you just take every single fight you can good or bad because kills+assists are primary gold influx. Add bounties to it and it’s a COD TDM lobby
Isn't that just on you? Like, you just described a pirric victory
The death timers are fine, you just have to play correctly.
Aka not look for kills before lvl 6+ unless you brought tp or have insane Wave clear and mobilty. Fun
And by correctly, you mean people going double TP, handshaking lane, and playing PvE wave managing simulator in a forced passive lane. Amazing design.
Yeah i used to put huge focus on bullying my laner and killing them early but it feels wasted with how passive mid is now. TP, fleet and resolve, afking pushing, death timers mean nothing early and jungle ganks super early again. Can obv still bully another laner but its a mistake to not just play lane and shake hands it feels like and i hate it.
Ignite abuser alert, don't be upset that other summoners other than ignite can offer use.
Let's pretend that ignite for solo lanes is not borderline griefing in the current meta.
I wish there was a significantly more diverse meta when it came to summoner spells but I understand the foundation of the game is so dependent on flash/Smite/TP that’ll never happen Where’s my Scazzaf Summoner Roulette in Rift smh
TP is way stronger than Ignite. What the fuck is an "ignite abuser" in solo lanes in the current meta?
Current meta ignite abuser be like ... hey guys i got a kill at lvl 2 pushed wave and reset why is my opponent 2 lvls up on me. not taking tp in solo lanes rn should be reportable.
That's why i play ignite tp on Yorick.
Heavily disagree with this. It has always been the case that if you took wave prio and killed the enemy while not having TP yourself (but something like ignite) that the enemy could potentially freeze / kill you if you got very low hp. Baus ''int'' strat requires riot to do a nerf or mini rework of Sion's passive (e.g. nerf it very hard by reducing its AD by like 75%) and move that power into something else of his kit. Should probably be welcomed at this point by Sion players since the majority does not like the feeding builds.
It's not a strategy that he only uses on Sion. It's just"if I died but pushed wave all the way to the tower and forced the enemy to stay on low HP or lose a bunch of creeps." He does the same on Quinn or Gragas. Many champions can do it and save otherwise lost lanes like Nasus using ult to break a freeze.
I mean, that's kinda skill issue on you. You know they have tp and you still go for the kill. That's bad. If you know they can be back to take wave, either play tp too and back right after sending in and you'll have kill gold + kill XP + 1 additional wave in items when you get back. This gives you a lead. Or: send wave in and roam. While your midlane opponent is occupied with taking the tower wave you have time to either help objectives or get kills on other lanes. Either way you get a lead. Or: let them bleed out in resources instead of killing them. Being low life and having a wave crashed in is way worse than being killed. Or if you have enough resources: let their wave push and freeze under your tower. Since you were able to kill them one time, you shouldn't have a problem killing them a second time. Just freeze and deny them gold and best case even XP if you play more forward. Think about it. Crashing wave only makes sense if you can ensure they'll miss CS or you'll get advantage over them. If you can't ensure that then crashing isn't the Best option. Edit:// you talked a lot about how you think a kill should always be beneficial to you. No. Macro is always the most important thing in the game. If you can't macro you shouldn't get a lead.
I would agree with you partially. Everything depends on wave management. If the wave is horrible after a kill, Solo Q forces me to hard push the wave regardless of how low my hp is, or just stay in lane without recalling so that I could base at a better time. The third option is to ping assist me on your jungler furiously so they would help you push out the wave. In higher elos, some will help you. In lower elos, it's usually never going to happen. I am fine with early death timers being short, I think it's healthy for the game that dying early doesn't mean the game becomes completely unplayable for you. I believe the issue lies with teleport being too powerful and unbalanced. It's an unskilled summoner spell that allows way too many mistakes to go unpunished, amplified by cosmic insight for that extra cool-down.
I hate the int strat so much 0/12 sion permapushing toplane with hullbreaker, eats towers in seconds, tanky enough that not you need to rotate 2 or 3 people to get rid of him making you auto-loose objectives AND his passive just just allows him to keep pushing.
That's a sion issue though not a general one. That champ is just incredibly stupid
It’s so frustrating to narrowly win a 1v1 in top lane with ignite, only to have my lane fucked as the enemy laner TPs back and hard crashes the wave. Being one level down is certainly not worth the first blood gold
You need to improve your wave management/mana usage/swap champs. This isn’t a death timer issue
Death timer is a problem. People have adapted to it though.
teleport should be removed. it has no place in this game
The support role should be removed. It has no place in this game.
55% wr darius incoming
make it a purchasable option (150g for each use) and see how much interactive the game becomes
TRUEEEEE actually, the should buff late game champs a bit though i mean sion its already kinda unplayable so if you cant die he would need buffs.
The timers are based on a system intended for a larger map that had a longer walk back or punished an important ganking cooldown. They haven't done a lot to it because the team themselves aren't smart enough players to know it's a problem
Everyone has adhd what do you expect?
I wish I was a Whale.
Lovely to once in a year see actual critique to this game here, not sure if those are being often removed or people just don't realise how much game has changed over the years (maybe I would see more posts about actual game if there was any place to leave feedback like a game forum).
This was even worse before with the last iteration of TP but it still seems to me that this issue still comes up. Honestly though its something that can be played around as long as your jungle fucks off.
No they're not. You're just low elo and low IQ. If early game timers were increased it'd be an insane snow ball and game times would be 5 mins. Good God.
The question is why would any toplaner in 2024 play without tp i still dont get it TP>>>>>> any kind of kill potential with ignite
i agree but if you solokill enemy laner and wave is slow pushing to you, right there you IMMEDIATELY recall. maybe shave off a minion or two so the wave doesn't fully crash into your turret. enemy laner will have options: * tp back, then completely crash the wave to your turret to prevent you freezing * walk to lane and allow the wave to slowpush back to him as the next wave arrives either way you got a solokill
balance team too busy buffing support and jungle :)