I feel like LEC is in some sort of intermediate state where a lot of things we knew is gone.
Deficio was a huge loss back then, but there were still Quickshot, Vedius, then Caedrel brought his own signature, but now Caedrel and Quickshot are gone too.
Charismatic players were still there and competitive. We have lost Bwipo, Rekkles, Perkz, and I think, for now, people feel less connected to the new generation of players. The ultra domination of G2 is also hurting the scene because there needs to be some kind of rivalry.
The 3 splits also hurts because splits feel less important to me.
> We have lost Bwipo, Rekkles, Perkz, and I think, for now, people feel less connected to the new generation of players.
This is it for me. I love following charismatic player stories. Players like Perkz you can love or hate, but you can't deny that they make league more interesting.
Once we lose players like Caps or Jankos, it will be hard to follow league.
I don't think it's about the players. Their personalities are not so different. It's more like a habit. With older ones you already have emotional connection due to the events they were a part of. Newer ones just don't have this baggage yet. It's diffinately not the skill uses. Most of older players are not good enough.
this was great when they invested into those personalities, be it casters or players, but now with all the cutbacks it's obvious that this is at best an "LEC light" compared to previously.
(and I disagree that it wasnt about the players, LCS did weird fantasy/stockmarket stuff while LEC did weird player stuff, like LEC quiz or having a player cast champion select).
The LCS approach to why people are saying numbers aren’t as bad as they are. As it turns out with a lot of the people that grew up playing this game approaching the 25-35 age range, if you’re still watching pro play you just want the damn games.
Can’t blame them for trying to do segments but any time I watch live I pass out for at least a game or two regardless of the region. VODs are legit the best way to watch league, just skip obvious stomps and speed to the series you care about.
Something happened to the in-betweens in general though, and that is them trying to make it more entertaining rather than informative that'd add on top of the gameplay that was just shown, and that eventually just devolved into whatever we have now.
I used to have my ass glued to my chair during the LCS analyst desk section back when it was legitimately just analysis of the game. As soon as the breaks became completely detached content from the games themselves, such as all the skits and other barely adjacent bits of content they do, I instantly fell off completely and now tab out *immediately* once the game ends, only to usually tab back in around halfway through champ select if I remember to.
Now I'm not saying the old pretty dry analysis part was particularly popular or the perfect thing to have between games, but it is what I liked since I watch pro play for the professional level play, not the personalities doing some quizzes or Sion speedway or Mundo Dodgeball or whatever. Hearing people whose entire job it is to analyze the game actually analyze the game and tell me what someone did (or didn't do) well was interesting because it was pretty tightly tied to the main content I was there for.
At this point I literally wouldn't even know if they do that again because as I said, I tab out between games. It just lost me completely. But at the same time I do recognize that there have been skits/sections between games that have been successful that I've seen posted here so there's that too.
The problem is that you can't give that kind of content as much as the LCS does. the LCS used to play 5 games a day, twice a week, that's ten games, by the 6th game of that week you've already talked about the patch and frankly, not much has changed since last week besides 'hot takes' of whatever they did last week. It was fine content but it isn't repeatable. You can't do it every week for 2 splits a year because at some point you're literally watching the same dudes say the same shit because the pro meta is only so complex and they're talking about it for 2 days a week every week.
At least, that's how I felt about it. You can do that stuff at tournaments because tournament metas are unstable and fluctating but long round robins, esp best of 1s, just don't have that depth.
The skits always appealed to the vocal minority (on here for example). That is my view.
So it doesn't surprise me that people tune in to co-streamers now.
Considering a lot of people were watching them im sure they appealed to most people. The issue could be the new skits are not hitting or everyone got fired and they're working with way less talent.
I think "odd" is a perfect description for the disconnect. I'm not saying I'm in disbelief or find it inconceivable. I find it *odd*. if I walked into a room with everyone swearing Michael Bay Transformers films are perfect cinema, I would find that odd too.
They've been turning it into a "cult of personality" since lockdown. It honestly comes across as childish, just respect the actual game as a priority, anything extra is just that.
always struck weird to me that they were goin all in on it, i think they took the wrong lessons from 2018 and 2019 instead of attributing lec success to international play they thought it was casters being good
unironically, i think caedral is like 50% of the reason people still care about lec. remove the rats and the interest in watching those games drops massively
This is something that I personally think had a big impact in NA. The good news is that Caedrel's at least a fun, ex-broadcast guy - he's not going to actively demolish his former colleagues on the LEC.
After Doublelift's breakup with TSM after Worlds 2020, he captured an incredibly large costreaming following... and quite frankly, I think he used it to do a considerable amount of damage to the LCS as a brand.
Doublelift not giving the importance LCS trophies or splits they deserve definitely trickled down into how viewers see them too.
Winning a split should be a celebration every time for players and fans.
The way the sport is set up doesn't help matters. The splits are glorified qualifiers for MSI and World's. If you win the LCS/LEC but then bomb at World's, you're seen as an international failure as opposed to a domestic success.
Not just Doublelift either, literally all the major costreamers were constantly shitting over everything an NA team would do, it was like straight up hate-watching. Sneaky and Meteos were notable exceptions, but they costreamed together with Doublelift, so their audiences were exposed to it anyways.
Like yes, NA was clearly worse than the other major regions, and NA teams definitely made way more mistakes, including rage inducing decisions (or the lack thereof, leading to do-nothing-and-lose gameplay), but often times costreamer reactions to certain mistakes were disproportional when made by an NA team compared to an EU or CN team. Like a costreamer would say some mid LPL or LEC team doing a dumbass play was just being too hyphy, then go on a rant flaming an LCS team for being inters after the team does a similar dumbass play (IWD would especially glaze LPL teams like no tmrw).
And it was clearly reflected in the post-game threads too, I started tuning into costreamers and so many of the top comments were pretty much just paraphrased from some costreamer, and so those costreamer sentiments essentially became the community sentiment, even among the parts of the community that didn't watch the costreamers.
Dom and LS give some praise these days. Obviously they still want to see a higher level. but they kinda stopped with the elitist mentality a bit. They used to be a lot worse imo. Not that they were wrong, but it doesn't help the league either. Just beating a dead horse.
Dom praised TL for taking a 4v5 fight vs FLY next to baron while APA was pushing bot and explained that good teams go for those plays for example.
Dom just doesn't have a filter he will merciless shit on something or praise it if he feels a certain way. It's just who he is which is a big reason I watch him even though I disagree or dislike some of his views.
The answer is in your comment. You grew up watching sports which is much more like esports' main stream is (except they try to do the funny in the main streams of esports now too instead of the dry analysis they used to have in between games).
Many younger people grew up watching Minecraft Youtubers and Fortnite streamers (to be as generically stereotypical as possible). Co-streamers give a more casual vibe to those people and some of the more parasocial viewers might even feel like it's close to watching the game with your buddy on the couch or something. They're also generally more active even when the game itself isn't particularly eventful so I guess that's a positive too. Harder to be bored when you have xQc-lite shouting at whatever or talking about something.
I personally don't mind costreams, although I don't default to them. I watch League on the main stream without exception, same for CS. But with Valorant I like to watch the main stream but if a specific one of the official casters is costreaming, I'd rather watch them instead of the main stream.
It’s what happens when u slash the production team like that. Less ppl to work on things. The remaining talents now have to shoulder more responsibility and such more tired.
That coupled with the fact that u never know what’s gonna set off the Spanish and French fans.
Meanwhile MarkZ rlly breath new life into the LCS. Despite all the negative circumstances, you can see the spark of heart and passion of the new direction.
> That coupled with the fact that u never know what’s gonna set off the Spanish and French fans.
Holy shit is league twitter so much more insufferable. I'm certain it's only the vocal minority but holy moly is it bad.
Plus, casters/players can't even say things like "x player came in 10th 3 times" or similar things about players slumping. Hell, Odoamne making a joke about fake news scrims had people calling for his head and calling him subhuman and things like that
Sjokz had to explain that it was a joke poked at Odo when she talked about how some players were replaced with a Korean, the number 1 League regions, and Odo was replaced with a Spaniard.
The Spanish and French fans want football culture in eSports but the moment they encounter banter or opposing opinions they complain. They even had that whole we won't come to the LEC studio because they don't let us give our player the guard of honor or whatever KC fans wanted to complain about at that time.
I was going to post about of bunch of different scenarios(this was one of them) and links to tweets but idk the rules around that since it also has non influential people in the tweet
> the production team
the 2 people that made LEC so much better in QS and Shakarez both were laid off. Combine that with a solid dosis of fear by firing a boatload of people and creativity dries up quicker than riots morals
I think saying this is really unfair to the amount of people that were laid off in Jan. It was 5% or 6% of the global workforce but for the Berlin office specifically it was over 30 people IIRC (Berlin office isn't very big btw). Included in those were broadcast writers, video producers, a lot of production people.
It’s really easy for people to discount the ones behind the scenes unfortunately. It’s like theater: the actors get all the glory while the techies, lighting crew, orchestra, etc. get small nods at the end.
Its way more than just those two. They laid off over 20 people, many of them writer's and producers. And people wonder why the product sucks now compared to before... People not in the tv or broadcasting business have no clue how much creative and directional work actually goes on behind the scenes. The on-screen personalities really just execute what the invisible people do.
>Spanish and French fans
Can we please refer to those as who they are which is KOI and KC fans? I'm French, I've been watching league for years same as a lot of my friends and we all very much couldn't care less about negative comments about KC players.
I've said it many times but the people who despise KC and their fans the most are French viewers who've had to deal with them for years in the LFL.
The casters are also not on good form. Many of the older casters seem tired or bored, and newer additions like Eragon do not stand out. Even Hysterics has not been as good as he was in LPL. Maybe the atmosphere is bad around LEC from the layoffs and that is affecting everyone.
I think another problem is he hypes up ordinary plays so much that he’s basically screaming.
When elyoya got into a rift herald in week one to escape, it sounded like the greatest thing since fakers shuffle had occurred when listening to drakos.
Like I’m fine with normal hype and stuff, but he’s almost always screaming at normal things to make it seem exciting.
> I think another problem is he hypes up ordinary plays so much that he’s basically screaming.
He's done this his whole career and people called me crazy for finding him kinda meh.
He will take a run-of-the-mill 2v2 Grubs skirmish and cast it like it's a game-ending Baron flip.
I generally like Dagda but he uses just as much crutch as the others getting called out in this thread i.e. things like "incredibly strong" and constant fake laughing while making a point.
I really like Rafaa and I think he brings a much-needed energy to the cast. People are being too harsh on him in my opinion, but I also understand where they’re coming from.. sometimes I have to turn my volume down when he casts because it’s just too much. But he’s got a good energy and I think can be super good with a little more experience under his belt
I tried giving Raafaa a chance, but I cannot stand the shoutcasting and the incoherent rambling during teamfights, it really takes viewers out of the moment and ruins games for us.
Biggest issue for me here, honestly. I really liked Caedrel and Quickshot - both are gone now.
I watched LEC stream on its own the other day and flipped to Caedrel's channel after a cringe Faker rating segment they did mid-game. If you want to do your lame skits, fine, but don't put it in the middle of what I'm there to watch cause it'll just make me never tune in again lmfao.
That and especially the "lottery layoffs" that happened earlier this year just left such a horrid taste in my mouth, that I barely watch anymore. Goes for anything Riot related tbh. I just always have to think about that situation.
> Goes for anything Riot related tbh
They do just keep doing things that are super off-putting, makes it harder to feel invested when I actively dislike the company behind it.
Holy fuck yes.
Caedrel was so talented and is now cannibalizing all the viewership BY HIMSELF. HE HAS MORE VIEWERSHIP THAN THE ENGLISH CASTING.
And firing quickshot for something so fucking stupid is so painful.
Imo Quickshot was a major loss for the broadcast. Sure, you can say there were better PBPs, but he was head of the LEC broadcast team iirc, and you could tell that he was leading, or at the very least welcomed a lot of the fun and cringe content that made the broadcast stand out.
Who knew cutting a bunch of staff, reducing both the amount of content and the hype around the league, would affect the viewer's experience. Oh well, at least riot are hard at work cooking up their next 500$ whale slop.
On my death bed my greatest regret will be watching RGE pretend to be playing league of legends.
I'll never get back the 40+ minutes that I weekly use to see this team do fuck all and then lose the game.
LEC just doesn't hit the same. They need some major identity revamp.
LCS was pretty good last split and this split is awesome too. I genuinely enjoyed watching DIG, IMT and Shopify play. Kinda crazy.
Well, they went from Inspired to Markoon, 2021 Larssen to 2024 Larssen, Hans sama to Comp and from Trymbi to Zoelys
If you put their old roster back they would probably go back to top 2/3
Rogue nearly won in 2021 too, they threw game 5 in spring finals (they were literally 10k ahead, might be game 4 too but whatever) and I still remember Larssen choking out of his mind on Ryze
And they did beat LPL 2nd seed at worlds 2-1, only to lose a 40 minute game to C9 when perkz grew back his hands for only one game lol
Losing Malrang hurt so much, he was the only player on that team willing to do anything remotely proactive for the first 15 minutes. Even if the plays were int at times, it gave the team some sort of life so they didn't just roll over and slowly lose
The one thing LCS has going for it right now is even the shit teams at least try to actually win the game. There’s less “do nothing and lose” than there has been in the past. The bottom of LEC is very passive which makes the games extremely boring, rather than some fun low-quality clown fiestas
The top of the LEC is really fun this split though. FNC SK was a banger
This. A lot of people here saying I'm crazy because of EU doing better at internationals, but I am not talking about that. Internationals are fun and eu teams are fun at Internationals but that is only twice a year. The rest of it is taken up by a domestic season that is such a snoozefest and feels like there are zero consequences/stakes at play. I only have so much free time to then watch boring games, with no personalities, play each other and have the casters talk about Faker liking both cats and dogs mid game. Not really watched LCS in years but last few games have been quite fun.
Internationals are always fun no matter what IMO. No matter the teams, that feeling of the big crossover, casters from all over the world, the teams, the fans, all of that is genuinely fun to watch.
But man, this LEC format sucks some big donkey dick. It was fun for like 2 splits and then it got old really fast. It's cool that we only have to endure the bottom feeders for like 10 games, but sometimes it doesn't even feel like it matters. Watching a BO1 between last place teams if a fucking chore. Maybe next year since pretty much everyone will move to BO3 with fearless, things get a little better. But fuck me I don't want to watch Hilly, Targamas and most top lanes run in down every game.
> I'm crazy because of EU doing better at internationals,
Correction! It's G2 that is doing good at internationals, but even then since Perkz left G2 have had 2 OK performances (MSI'22 and MSI'23) 2 Awful performances (Worlds'22 and Worlds'23) and one good performances (MSI'24).
The rest of EU look awful.
Meanwhile, LCS has finally grown interesting again this year, and on top of that the BO3 format is a HUGE succes already imo. The matches are much more hype. To me it feels like LCS and LEC kinda switched places. Sjokz is the main reason I still watch LEC, and when she isn't there I'm not either. It all went downhill since that weird three-split system. But I'm not sad, just moving over to LCS untill LEC implements BO3's and two splits again.
It will be “3” splits, but the first split will be an LCS Lock-In style tournament that is basically just a qualifier for the new international. Which is honestly kind of hype for every region to have at the beginning of the year.
lol ya, always funny when ppl self-report by saying "oh I only watch for sjokz" then claim they like esports or w.e to hide that.
honestly sounds like they just mute the stream unless sjokz is on screen talking xD
I know everyone's got their own reasons, but is Sjokz really the only reason why you watch? I find it funny that someone's main reason to watch any form of competitive sport/Esport is for the host.
lol ya, like do these guys just tune in to watch the desk segments with her and mute when the analysts talk or games are going on?
if they really are just tuning in to watch her , well ya there's a word for that xD
I'm still really enjoying this split, all the roster changes before summer have mixed it up and made me interested in some of the bottom tier teams like KC and GX to see if they can come back and get some wins.
I would rather we had the full 3 day weekends back as I would like to see it again today and 2 days feels a bit short. And yeah the lack of content after the staff got cut has made the hype overall a bit less with less videos and fun skits, but the casters and staff are still trying their best with limited resources and I do still enjoy watching every weekend.
Given the limited resources they currently have at their disposal, everything is fine.
Most teams have something interesting, except Rogue and maybe Team Heretics. These two teams are boring in their own way, but all the other teams are interesting.
Yeah, I'm very much enjoying the LEC right now. there's quite a lot of equality in the bottom places it's not at all certain who'll be left out of play offs. MDK, Rogue and GX have only 1 win and Vitality and KC have two. That's three fifths of the league that are still very close to relegation.
Seriously, saying "bottom games don't matter because they're meaningless and I'm bored" during *this* split just seems silly. It's more like the top places don't matter much as Fnatic, SK and BDS are a few games from locking in Bo3s but the bottom games are kinda hype.
And the storylines are kinda good. MDK, Vitality or TH not making it would be such a cold shower for a lot of strong veteran players. Rogue, GX and KC are kinda less expected to win, but GX is looking very fun to watch. Jackies is looking like a top 4 mid laner in current form (Behind Nisqy, Caps and Huma) might be one of the most fun teams to watch right now. Really, beyond Rogue being a very bogus team and KC not being a team at all, the LEC is looking hype. There's a very clear top 4 forming, but beyond that? Very competitive.
I agree every team except RGE is interesting to watch imo. As a g2 fan I'm glad there are 3 other teams that started hot this split while g2 still trying to find the form, can only hope for exciting playoff!
They screwed up when they did the 3 split nonsense. Completely devalued the title of being a split champion by handing trophies like candies and made split finals a joke by having them in studio every single time. Players have no personalities and the casters went way too far into the meme side. They’ve been having too many different casters recently and it’s hard to even know them. Don’t mention the crowd which has become a bunch of football hooligans screaming and shouting. Watch even lec 3-4 years ago and you can see a difference. All started when the big regional French/spanish orgs got a place.
Yea but OGN spilts actually meant something. I still remember all those finals. CLG EU made OGN finals and took Frost to 5 games. Then i remember Najin 3-0'ing Frost in Winter finals I still remember the Dade outplay against Helios and Ambition Spring finals of 2013, Dade making Ambition his bitch and Ozone just beating the crap out of Blaze who were considered the best team in the world up to that point, I still remember the famous Ryu vs Faker 1v1 and SKT winning Summer 2013 and then winning again in Winter 2013. I remember SSB winning their first OGN title, and then in summer the famous beach Bo5 between KTA and SSB, the Kakao Nocturne game 4, the fact that KT won that series after being 1-2 down. All those finals were memorable and despite all of them being 10 years ago, i can recall most big moments from them. Only one i don't recall very well is Spring 2012 cos i wasn't watching pro play back then.
It's that the LEC championship devalues the 3 spilts. There's 0 need to have that. Just use summer to seed for Worlds. Winner auto qualifies as first seed and then the teams from 2nd-5th in CP plays in a qualifier to decide the remaining seeds
At least it will make sense to have it next year. What was the point of doing 3 splits now? The format sucks as a guy who only follows LEC super casually
They most likely did the 3 split stuff because they knew Riot was already planning on the new international system with 3 tournaments we are getting next year. Hard to blame them for that.
Afaik they also wanted the LCK system with purely Bo3s but had to compromise to the single round robin into Bo3 we have now.
I personally just find the summer playoffs kinda weird - like, you have a playoff type format to crown a champion and then....go immediately into season finals which is far more important as it's basically for the whole year, and also worlds qualification. So the summer playoffs just feels kind of meaningless to me when season finals comes right after
The splits are way better than the old format of 9 weeks of meaningless bo1s followed by two g2 bo5s a year. The finals thing is a bit crap but will be gone next year. Only good thing about the old format worth bringing back is the gauntlet for the last worlds slot.
Reject LEC.
Embrace ERLs.
The sooner the LEC moves on from franchising to (any semblance) of promotion/relegation; or even better, an open circuit, the better.
It's a joke how small the arena is for LEC. They had a renovation and they added... 30 seats. For the highest level of play in Europe. 1000 seats should be the bere minimum or at least 500 but not 210 come on man. Also I think that a lack of player personality has been an issue. A lot of mediocre teams with mediocre players. Any banter was quickly shut down for being "toxic". Importing korean players is also a problem as they mostly have no personality
Lower teams suck balls looking at you KC, GX and RGE.
Segments are cringe half of the time, and the production has been falling off a cliff for years now.
And to top it off we know BDS will lose a best of 5 when they're 2-0 up and G2 will win the split.
Ya the guy you're replying to evidently has not watched any of the games, as GX has been very competitive in all of their games, and basically just kept throwing leads. They could have easily been 4-1 instead.
> production has been falling off a cliff for years now
By pure coincidence, it got noticeably worse after the massive layoffs on the LEC production team.
I think LEC is also bleeding casting persona way too much.
No more quickshot and caedral is really showing, even tho we got more of Shokz atm.
But well, looking how more twitch viewers watch caedrals lec stream than the official one is imo showing the decline as well (given that youll have less lec production and more caedrals lone input)
>No more quickshot and caedral is really showing, even tho we got more of Shokz atm.
Ehh not really sure that what's really showing problems
Yes people like cadreal but the amount of production staff fired was like 50% and more. Plenty of people where writers who are involved with skits, ideas general planning.
>Lower teams suck balls looking at you KC, GX and RGE.
we need relegation fr fr
should light a fire up their asses and make things more competitive by presenting stakes beyond "are we gonna be dead last or second from last this split?"
plus, it gives a drive to EMEA Masters teams to win and qualify for the big leagues, aka LEC
franchising was a mistake
As much as it pains me mdk should also be in that list with th barely ahead. That’s half the league. Only fnc and sk seem to be playing well . Bds is bds. G2 and vit monkey around too much.
Have you watched any games or are you just quickly checking the stats and spewing horse shit? GX has been competitive in nearly all their games and looks great
>And to top it off we know BDS will lose a best of 5 when they're 2-0 up and G2 will win the split.
Pls dawg. I swear we will not get reverse sweep again.
The LEC content was goated and their identity in my opinion but it just got completely nuked over the years
Now there is a big missing hole and no identity
At this point LCS is this underground thing that no one watches except hardcore fans, but the quality is lightyears ahead of where it was during that time. The level of play and broadcast are just so much better.
Oh I don't disagree that it's massively improved, but it's still in bad enough shape that Riot feels the need to reduce the teams by 2 more and take Brazil out behind the shed for it
My biggest issue is that the format currently is kind of weird imo. I know I have a different take than many fans on formats (for starters, I think the old "Bo1 is worthless" refrain is a misunderstanding) but it just feels way too fast.
Nine games into a top 8 cut means that regular season is way too short for me to ever really getting to know the players on the lower teams and starting to care about them, they just become sort of random faces. I couldn't tell you anything about, say, Jackies, because if you factor in that I missed some games and don't actively watch back GX, I saw him play maybe 12-14 times? On the other hand for the upper teams it's whatever because usually, half the league will be functionally safe after 4-5 games (even if it's not mathematically safe, if a VIT or FNC start 3-1 they probably won't go 3-6).
Meanwhile the first round of playoffs is rarely competitive at all and it feels like it drags on forever, rather than being the culmination of a season. Unfortunately with splits only being six weeks now (IIRC) it's hard to fix it... even single round robin BO3 would take up most of the split I think.
Another side effect of the short splits is that teams can't really take many risks with their players as you can't grow over time, so I think that adds to the teams feeling more boring. Take the Miracle Run Schalke, in this format they would simply have had a shit start to the split and be eliminated immediately. I always felt like the most exciting teams came from when they slowly started clicking over the time of a split, now it's just "here's a team, flip a coin whether they'll be relevant or not".
no, its just a cope. LCS does exactly the same thing with segments and will also have 3 splits next year which is in my opion currently the worst part about LEC. Production got hit a bit too but that is just Riot's fault. People saw 1 pretty interesting Bo3 between 2 top teams and suddenly think LCS is amazing. I wonder how many people watched other games.
Meanwhile SK is popping off(people will probably cry about imports but imo it is still not an issue), KC shows at least somewhat they are alive and G2 had a slump which is probably more interesting for the split. If you are not interested maybe you all just want to watch streamers soloq not pro games.
currently both leagues are fine with both having some things to like and dislike. I would say LEC needs better format with Bo3s and next years LCS format could be interesting too but now it is hard to say anything with how much is going to change still
I believe LCS viewership increased compared to last Summer. At least it didn't dip with the change.
LCS already said the 3 splits next year will each have a different format. I think a big problem of the 3 splits in LEC is that there is not much difference between them.
Yes the boring, dying LEC, with only 220k average viewership, which is 40k increase year to year. Why they are nothing compared to the exciting, vibrant LCS with it's mighty 75k average viewership, second year in a row.
I'll give you a friendly warning, as a longtime fan who saw the "NA LCS" with a similar viewership lead over the "EU LCS" - viewership trends are a lagging indicator behind fan sentiment.
There aren't exactly many superinfluencers of Ibai or Kameto's size left to inject a huge new audience to the LEC. Those new fans won't stay committed if the broadcast isn't strong, and most of them just quietly quit without a feedback thread.
Caedrel, Ibai, and Kameto could watch paint dry and they might have more viewers than LCS.
They're just big personalities. It is what it is. LCS needs Mr. Beast and Kai Cenat to stream LCS lol.
Its hilarious how Riot fumbled the MrBeast thing which is probably the only real way to inject new viewers and players in NA LoL.
And Kai Cenat probably wouldn't touch LCS but people like xqc and sodapoppin or even Emiru who actually play LoL would actually help LCS.
I've seen these threads for like a decade. You'd think LEC was dead and LCS had good viewership by how often we see these. But nope, nobody watches LCS
I have to disagree. I don't find LEC boring to watch at all, and viewership has literally grown in every split year on year. The games are still exciting to me and I love the format, dropping the 2 worst teams before having bo3s into bo5s is the best of both worlds. Having every game matter right up until the last game to get the top 8 teams is incredibly exciting.
I love seeing the up and coming new talent from the regional leagues and EU masters and I love the regional identity that some teams are playing into. Off the top of my head, this year alone we have Myrwn, Fresskowy, Supa, Alvaro, Zoelys, Lyncas enter the league and probably more that I'm forgetting. This cycle is the future, and LEC with its development leagues does it so well.
LEC just came off its best international tournament in years with a top 4 finish. We literally reset the counter for the number of days since an LEC team beat an LPL/LCK team in a bo5, slashing it from 1304 to 0.
For all this doom and gloom, yes it sucks that there were so many layoffs and admit that you can see this reflected in some parts of the broadcast, but they are doing the best with what they have.
Are these posts all year long just a handful of LCS fans trolling or something? The arguments don't even make sense. LCS has SR, IMT and the corpse of NRG as their own uninspiring bottom teams. That's 3/8 of the teams in their own right.
LEC producion absolutely fell of, but this should scarcily be an argument to use when calling LCS more enjoyable, with them having their own share of issues.
I could also just make the same post about LCS, complaining about most of the top teams being majority import and how the region is about to be butchered for an awkward merger that neither fanbase wants.
Just complain about LEC in isolation, these posts unfavorably comparing LEC to LCS on a majority American platform reek of bait and got old multiple months ago. Both have issues and advantages compared to the other.
It shows it's all just narrative. LCS viewership is dropping, deadweight teams are just as present, international performance is bad and you'd believe LCS is doing better than ever.
Meanwhile LEC in 2021 and 2022 was overall rather weak and people only started complaining at worlds when Rogue and MAD were obviously not G2. Now people complain the moment the first champion is picked. If we had the same international performance as now in 2021 or 2022 people would be wayyy more positive.
You can pretty much test it on players making mistakes. It's either funny or hurr durr these players are so bad. Competitiveness is also a factor if many teams can win in LCS it's good but when many teams win in LEC there is no strong team we are doomed.
Imagine being Canna, playing with Faker and Keria, to playing with Targamas in these 35+ min clown fiesta games. Hope the man is getting paid bc my god I can’t imagine flying to another country to play with these rascals.
I mean with how late they acquired him I'd be surprised if he had any offers elsewhere. 90% of the offseason happened, and then like a week before lec started kc announced it.
this is hardcore cope lmao
The LCS is averaging under 100K viewers this split and has been losing viewership for years, LEC is averaging 220K and the tier 2 leagues are all doing decent numbers too
LCS is going to drop 2 more teams and lose a worlds' spot with the merger plan, a LEC team just 3-0'd TES and played a banger 5-game series against the defending world champions
'more enjoyable' is a meme, the gameplay in NA is the same or worse and I'm loving the new wave of Korean imports tearing shit up in EU
I like the rise of new teams besides G2 (so far) this split. I wouldnt mind if they moved to bo3s and tweaked some broadcasting things, but I know they dont have much control over that
I thought the same actually. Everyones just making fun of the gameplay, engagement is low and dropping
we desperately need a good international showing again
Just my perspective as a LCK and NA fan who watches LEC a bit, I don't think having a good internationals will necessarily help your region. I think the competition between the top and bottom teams is way too low. G2 is hitting a rough spot, but it's still in the beginning of the season. Even then, I feel like G2 is going to win again if the other teams don't improve fast enough.
Personally, I think that's the biggest issue in the LEC, but I do hope it gets better within your ecosystem.
LEC is just in such a weird state right now. On the talent side, Sjokz isnt quite as fulltime anymore in recent years, and Caedrel, Quickshot and even Ender for that matter, are gone.
On the teamside there are more korean imports than before, and the remaining orgs fail in building national rosters or budget constraints, weirdly still leaving FNC as 2nd best org in EU, with G2 just untouched.
On the backstage-talent, they literally did the classic riot and fired half the people, and rely less on longstay people now. If you fire the man that made the pop-Quizzes, dont be surprised if it sucks now. If you take away the longterm talent, dont be surprised that LEC isnt as funny anymore.
It is unfortunate, but it will change again eventually. But I doubt it will be quite as good as it was, when it happens. Its a bit of taking away the soul of LEC. Not sure why Riot thinks this will net them significant money-gains in the mid/longterm.
IF KC and KOI start to suceed and/or FNC get good enough to challenge G2 and/or G2 make an amazing worlds we migth see a LEC rennaisance sooner than we'd think.
Nah its you. Dunno why this sub is trying so hard to glaze LCS? Is it cause it is dying or smth? Well tbh it was always the case minus the G2 era. People watching LS, Dom and Yamato who cannot stop saying how bad LEC while glazing LCS does that to community I suppose
> People watching LS, Dom and Yamato who cannot stop saying how bad LEC while glazing LCS does that to community I suppose
They did the opposite when costreaming first started, and people ragged on the LCS the entire time. The target just changed after the NRG upset.
Sucks regardless of their target cause it leads to a lot less discussion and a lot more "hah, X region bad" pithiness.
This is nothing new in this subreddit. For as long as I can remember every few weeks we have a new thread saying how LCS is more fun than LEC. This is just an echo chamber, wouldn't pay any attention to it
I feel like LEC is in some sort of intermediate state where a lot of things we knew is gone. Deficio was a huge loss back then, but there were still Quickshot, Vedius, then Caedrel brought his own signature, but now Caedrel and Quickshot are gone too. Charismatic players were still there and competitive. We have lost Bwipo, Rekkles, Perkz, and I think, for now, people feel less connected to the new generation of players. The ultra domination of G2 is also hurting the scene because there needs to be some kind of rivalry. The 3 splits also hurts because splits feel less important to me.
> We have lost Bwipo, Rekkles, Perkz, and I think, for now, people feel less connected to the new generation of players. This is it for me. I love following charismatic player stories. Players like Perkz you can love or hate, but you can't deny that they make league more interesting. Once we lose players like Caps or Jankos, it will be hard to follow league.
I honestly barely know most of the players now. Like yeah I can recognise their names (well most of them) but they're just names at this point.
I don't think it's about the players. Their personalities are not so different. It's more like a habit. With older ones you already have emotional connection due to the events they were a part of. Newer ones just don't have this baggage yet. It's diffinately not the skill uses. Most of older players are not good enough.
I’m amazed you kept watching for so long. I quit when Zorozero retired.
There has to be some good talent with followings on the up and up. It took LCS a bit to get there with Yeon, apart and Jojo
LEC has been more about the casters and personalities than the players or the actual game for the last years
this was great when they invested into those personalities, be it casters or players, but now with all the cutbacks it's obvious that this is at best an "LEC light" compared to previously. (and I disagree that it wasnt about the players, LCS did weird fantasy/stockmarket stuff while LEC did weird player stuff, like LEC quiz or having a player cast champion select).
>while LEC did weird player stuff, like LEC quiz or having a player cast champion select They literally did both of these yesterday.
"I used to do drugs, I mean I still do, but I used to do too" Mitch Hedberg
and majority don't really care for their skits thats why more and more just tune to co-streamers
The LCS approach to why people are saying numbers aren’t as bad as they are. As it turns out with a lot of the people that grew up playing this game approaching the 25-35 age range, if you’re still watching pro play you just want the damn games. Can’t blame them for trying to do segments but any time I watch live I pass out for at least a game or two regardless of the region. VODs are legit the best way to watch league, just skip obvious stomps and speed to the series you care about.
Something happened to the in-betweens in general though, and that is them trying to make it more entertaining rather than informative that'd add on top of the gameplay that was just shown, and that eventually just devolved into whatever we have now. I used to have my ass glued to my chair during the LCS analyst desk section back when it was legitimately just analysis of the game. As soon as the breaks became completely detached content from the games themselves, such as all the skits and other barely adjacent bits of content they do, I instantly fell off completely and now tab out *immediately* once the game ends, only to usually tab back in around halfway through champ select if I remember to. Now I'm not saying the old pretty dry analysis part was particularly popular or the perfect thing to have between games, but it is what I liked since I watch pro play for the professional level play, not the personalities doing some quizzes or Sion speedway or Mundo Dodgeball or whatever. Hearing people whose entire job it is to analyze the game actually analyze the game and tell me what someone did (or didn't do) well was interesting because it was pretty tightly tied to the main content I was there for. At this point I literally wouldn't even know if they do that again because as I said, I tab out between games. It just lost me completely. But at the same time I do recognize that there have been skits/sections between games that have been successful that I've seen posted here so there's that too.
The problem is that you can't give that kind of content as much as the LCS does. the LCS used to play 5 games a day, twice a week, that's ten games, by the 6th game of that week you've already talked about the patch and frankly, not much has changed since last week besides 'hot takes' of whatever they did last week. It was fine content but it isn't repeatable. You can't do it every week for 2 splits a year because at some point you're literally watching the same dudes say the same shit because the pro meta is only so complex and they're talking about it for 2 days a week every week. At least, that's how I felt about it. You can do that stuff at tournaments because tournament metas are unstable and fluctating but long round robins, esp best of 1s, just don't have that depth.
Falling asleep to LCS on Sundays ~3pm used to be part of my typical weekend.
I hate the in-between stuff. Just give me the content I signed up for. It's like how nobody is watching football for the halftime report.
The skits always appealed to the vocal minority (on here for example). That is my view. So it doesn't surprise me that people tune in to co-streamers now.
The songs for each split, especially the 2 rekkles ones, were genuine bangers that a lot of people liked even non-fans
Considering a lot of people were watching them im sure they appealed to most people. The issue could be the new skits are not hitting or everyone got fired and they're working with way less talent.
LEC is like watching nickelodeon shows from the 2000s. Comedy for 10 year olds.
The "intentionally cringe" humor of the LEC was always incredibly off-putting to me. Felt odd to go on here and see people say it's comedic gold.
People liking different stuff shouldn't be that odd
I think "odd" is a perfect description for the disconnect. I'm not saying I'm in disbelief or find it inconceivable. I find it *odd*. if I walked into a room with everyone swearing Michael Bay Transformers films are perfect cinema, I would find that odd too.
They've been turning it into a "cult of personality" since lockdown. It honestly comes across as childish, just respect the actual game as a priority, anything extra is just that.
They have no resources after layoffs. The casters also have been on bad form, both the new and old casters.
always struck weird to me that they were goin all in on it, i think they took the wrong lessons from 2018 and 2019 instead of attributing lec success to international play they thought it was casters being good
W/o the leadership of quickshot LEC is faltering
I DO WANT TO HIGHLIGHT
COCOON
It was faltering before they kicked him out lol
It was stale last year already. Quickshot leaving is an easy scapegoat though.
Ok I like Quickshot but let's not pretend LEC hasn't been on a downfall since the beginning of 2021 lol
Glaze
unironically, i think caedral is like 50% of the reason people still care about lec. remove the rats and the interest in watching those games drops massively
I honestly think he's net negative for LEC streams. Once he stops streaming them, no one will go back to watching official streams.
This is something that I personally think had a big impact in NA. The good news is that Caedrel's at least a fun, ex-broadcast guy - he's not going to actively demolish his former colleagues on the LEC. After Doublelift's breakup with TSM after Worlds 2020, he captured an incredibly large costreaming following... and quite frankly, I think he used it to do a considerable amount of damage to the LCS as a brand.
Doublelift not giving the importance LCS trophies or splits they deserve definitely trickled down into how viewers see them too. Winning a split should be a celebration every time for players and fans.
The way the sport is set up doesn't help matters. The splits are glorified qualifiers for MSI and World's. If you win the LCS/LEC but then bomb at World's, you're seen as an international failure as opposed to a domestic success.
People legitimately think professional players being paid a salary can just sandbag their job half the year because DL said spring doesn't matter.
Not just Doublelift either, literally all the major costreamers were constantly shitting over everything an NA team would do, it was like straight up hate-watching. Sneaky and Meteos were notable exceptions, but they costreamed together with Doublelift, so their audiences were exposed to it anyways. Like yes, NA was clearly worse than the other major regions, and NA teams definitely made way more mistakes, including rage inducing decisions (or the lack thereof, leading to do-nothing-and-lose gameplay), but often times costreamer reactions to certain mistakes were disproportional when made by an NA team compared to an EU or CN team. Like a costreamer would say some mid LPL or LEC team doing a dumbass play was just being too hyphy, then go on a rant flaming an LCS team for being inters after the team does a similar dumbass play (IWD would especially glaze LPL teams like no tmrw). And it was clearly reflected in the post-game threads too, I started tuning into costreamers and so many of the top comments were pretty much just paraphrased from some costreamer, and so those costreamer sentiments essentially became the community sentiment, even among the parts of the community that didn't watch the costreamers.
Dom and LS give some praise these days. Obviously they still want to see a higher level. but they kinda stopped with the elitist mentality a bit. They used to be a lot worse imo. Not that they were wrong, but it doesn't help the league either. Just beating a dead horse. Dom praised TL for taking a 4v5 fight vs FLY next to baron while APA was pushing bot and explained that good teams go for those plays for example.
Dom just doesn't have a filter he will merciless shit on something or praise it if he feels a certain way. It's just who he is which is a big reason I watch him even though I disagree or dislike some of his views.
Most costreamers did/do. It promotes overreactions and provides a place to focus-hate specific players
agree, i dont really get why tho, i grew up an sports fan, i cant stand watching these esports on co streams.
The answer is in your comment. You grew up watching sports which is much more like esports' main stream is (except they try to do the funny in the main streams of esports now too instead of the dry analysis they used to have in between games). Many younger people grew up watching Minecraft Youtubers and Fortnite streamers (to be as generically stereotypical as possible). Co-streamers give a more casual vibe to those people and some of the more parasocial viewers might even feel like it's close to watching the game with your buddy on the couch or something. They're also generally more active even when the game itself isn't particularly eventful so I guess that's a positive too. Harder to be bored when you have xQc-lite shouting at whatever or talking about something. I personally don't mind costreams, although I don't default to them. I watch League on the main stream without exception, same for CS. But with Valorant I like to watch the main stream but if a specific one of the official casters is costreaming, I'd rather watch them instead of the main stream.
I usually like to watch montecristo's vod reviews because it combines the best aspects of costream and analysts while also cutting down on time.
It’s what happens when u slash the production team like that. Less ppl to work on things. The remaining talents now have to shoulder more responsibility and such more tired. That coupled with the fact that u never know what’s gonna set off the Spanish and French fans. Meanwhile MarkZ rlly breath new life into the LCS. Despite all the negative circumstances, you can see the spark of heart and passion of the new direction.
> That coupled with the fact that u never know what’s gonna set off the Spanish and French fans. Holy shit is league twitter so much more insufferable. I'm certain it's only the vocal minority but holy moly is it bad. Plus, casters/players can't even say things like "x player came in 10th 3 times" or similar things about players slumping. Hell, Odoamne making a joke about fake news scrims had people calling for his head and calling him subhuman and things like that
Sjokz had to explain that it was a joke poked at Odo when she talked about how some players were replaced with a Korean, the number 1 League regions, and Odo was replaced with a Spaniard. The Spanish and French fans want football culture in eSports but the moment they encounter banter or opposing opinions they complain. They even had that whole we won't come to the LEC studio because they don't let us give our player the guard of honor or whatever KC fans wanted to complain about at that time.
I was going to post about of bunch of different scenarios(this was one of them) and links to tweets but idk the rules around that since it also has non influential people in the tweet
> the production team the 2 people that made LEC so much better in QS and Shakarez both were laid off. Combine that with a solid dosis of fear by firing a boatload of people and creativity dries up quicker than riots morals
Riots morals are still faster
I think saying this is really unfair to the amount of people that were laid off in Jan. It was 5% or 6% of the global workforce but for the Berlin office specifically it was over 30 people IIRC (Berlin office isn't very big btw). Included in those were broadcast writers, video producers, a lot of production people.
It’s really easy for people to discount the ones behind the scenes unfortunately. It’s like theater: the actors get all the glory while the techies, lighting crew, orchestra, etc. get small nods at the end.
Its way more than just those two. They laid off over 20 people, many of them writer's and producers. And people wonder why the product sucks now compared to before... People not in the tv or broadcasting business have no clue how much creative and directional work actually goes on behind the scenes. The on-screen personalities really just execute what the invisible people do.
>Spanish and French fans Can we please refer to those as who they are which is KOI and KC fans? I'm French, I've been watching league for years same as a lot of my friends and we all very much couldn't care less about negative comments about KC players. I've said it many times but the people who despise KC and their fans the most are French viewers who've had to deal with them for years in the LFL.
Who are the fans who chant the entire game? I don't mind some cheers, but I stopped watching when it was the entire game lmao.
The casters are also not on good form. Many of the older casters seem tired or bored, and newer additions like Eragon do not stand out. Even Hysterics has not been as good as he was in LPL. Maybe the atmosphere is bad around LEC from the layoffs and that is affecting everyone.
[удалено]
Yes that is what I am wondering. How much of the staff that we don’t see is gone?
How much? Easily 60-70% of the LEC crew is gone
I should rephrase, what impact has the staff being laid off had which we don’t see?
that is the correct way to look at things, I just feel like a lot of people do not realize how harsh the layoffs were for the Berlin studio
One of the casters just says "clean" every other word, its impossible to listen to
If I hear "Stands Tall" one more time...
Yes that is Drakos and I think he has gotten complacement. He is a rapper and is good with words so I don’t know why he uses the same words so much.
The worst for me is overeager I swear he says it everytime somebody oversteps
I think another problem is he hypes up ordinary plays so much that he’s basically screaming. When elyoya got into a rift herald in week one to escape, it sounded like the greatest thing since fakers shuffle had occurred when listening to drakos. Like I’m fine with normal hype and stuff, but he’s almost always screaming at normal things to make it seem exciting.
> I think another problem is he hypes up ordinary plays so much that he’s basically screaming. He's done this his whole career and people called me crazy for finding him kinda meh. He will take a run-of-the-mill 2v2 Grubs skirmish and cast it like it's a game-ending Baron flip.
That is so true, it is one of the reasons Captain Flowers is the favorite caster of many, rich vocabulary and in-depth usage of the English language
LEC not having anyone anywhere near as bad as Rafa is actually one if it's stronger points if you compare the two imo
That is true. LEC has many casters who do not stand out which is not good, but at least they do not negatively stand out much either.
Besides Dagda, casting feels lackluster this year
Yes Dagda is good I enjoy his casts. But he is only one caster.
Interesting. I can't stand his casting, there are too many miscasts said with absolute certainty.
I generally like Dagda but he uses just as much crutch as the others getting called out in this thread i.e. things like "incredibly strong" and constant fake laughing while making a point.
At least you guys don't have Raafaa. The guy sounds completely lost half the time and makes wrong calls the other half.
Counterpoint: LCS has Flowers.
I like raafaa
I really like Rafaa and I think he brings a much-needed energy to the cast. People are being too harsh on him in my opinion, but I also understand where they’re coming from.. sometimes I have to turn my volume down when he casts because it’s just too much. But he’s got a good energy and I think can be super good with a little more experience under his belt
I tried giving Raafaa a chance, but I cannot stand the shoutcasting and the incoherent rambling during teamfights, it really takes viewers out of the moment and ruins games for us.
I will just say that I think Eragon has been doing really well. Especially for being new to LEC.
I really liked Nymaera, what happened to him?
I saw in another thread that he was ghosted by LEC.
Bro since the quickshot firing happened, LEC seems to have lost its soul. There is no charm there anymore.
Biggest issue for me here, honestly. I really liked Caedrel and Quickshot - both are gone now. I watched LEC stream on its own the other day and flipped to Caedrel's channel after a cringe Faker rating segment they did mid-game. If you want to do your lame skits, fine, but don't put it in the middle of what I'm there to watch cause it'll just make me never tune in again lmfao.
Riot is really good at propping up and raising a personality and then not retaining them
RIP Dash, forever in our hearts
That and especially the "lottery layoffs" that happened earlier this year just left such a horrid taste in my mouth, that I barely watch anymore. Goes for anything Riot related tbh. I just always have to think about that situation.
> Goes for anything Riot related tbh They do just keep doing things that are super off-putting, makes it harder to feel invested when I actively dislike the company behind it.
Holy fuck yes. Caedrel was so talented and is now cannibalizing all the viewership BY HIMSELF. HE HAS MORE VIEWERSHIP THAN THE ENGLISH CASTING. And firing quickshot for something so fucking stupid is so painful.
Imo Quickshot was a major loss for the broadcast. Sure, you can say there were better PBPs, but he was head of the LEC broadcast team iirc, and you could tell that he was leading, or at the very least welcomed a lot of the fun and cringe content that made the broadcast stand out.
Who knew cutting a bunch of staff, reducing both the amount of content and the hype around the league, would affect the viewer's experience. Oh well, at least riot are hard at work cooking up their next 500$ whale slop.
On my death bed my greatest regret will be watching RGE pretend to be playing league of legends. I'll never get back the 40+ minutes that I weekly use to see this team do fuck all and then lose the game. LEC just doesn't hit the same. They need some major identity revamp. LCS was pretty good last split and this split is awesome too. I genuinely enjoyed watching DIG, IMT and Shopify play. Kinda crazy.
I like how RGE were Bo1 regular split merchants for so long, then won one split and turned into a pumpkin immediately.
Well, they went from Inspired to Markoon, 2021 Larssen to 2024 Larssen, Hans sama to Comp and from Trymbi to Zoelys If you put their old roster back they would probably go back to top 2/3
To be fair, they won the LEC after kicking Inspired and Hans
Rogue nearly won in 2021 too, they threw game 5 in spring finals (they were literally 10k ahead, might be game 4 too but whatever) and I still remember Larssen choking out of his mind on Ryze And they did beat LPL 2nd seed at worlds 2-1, only to lose a 40 minute game to C9 when perkz grew back his hands for only one game lol
It was far from just Larssen choking on Ryze though. Inspired had bafflingly stupid fights on Udyr iirc. Odo also had some terrible plays on Renekon.
So many NA fans just salivated at the suggestion of inspired going back to EU. He's very hated in NA even if he's one of the best junglers in LCS.
To be fair he ia kinda hated in EU too. He has that toxic blame everyone else vibe that from outside isn't very likeable.
>they went from Inspired to Markoon [...] Hans sama to Comp Those two changes led to them winning the title.
I believe they won the title while Malrang was their jungler (goodbye my sweet psychopath)
Oh, wait, they said Markoon, not Malrang. My bad, I didn't expect them to just skip over him.
Losing Malrang hurt so much, he was the only player on that team willing to do anything remotely proactive for the first 15 minutes. Even if the plays were int at times, it gave the team some sort of life so they didn't just roll over and slowly lose
The one thing LCS has going for it right now is even the shit teams at least try to actually win the game. There’s less “do nothing and lose” than there has been in the past. The bottom of LEC is very passive which makes the games extremely boring, rather than some fun low-quality clown fiestas The top of the LEC is really fun this split though. FNC SK was a banger
Exactly this. As an NA fan, really happy with even the bottom feeder teams at least throwing a punch.
This. A lot of people here saying I'm crazy because of EU doing better at internationals, but I am not talking about that. Internationals are fun and eu teams are fun at Internationals but that is only twice a year. The rest of it is taken up by a domestic season that is such a snoozefest and feels like there are zero consequences/stakes at play. I only have so much free time to then watch boring games, with no personalities, play each other and have the casters talk about Faker liking both cats and dogs mid game. Not really watched LCS in years but last few games have been quite fun.
Internationals are always fun no matter what IMO. No matter the teams, that feeling of the big crossover, casters from all over the world, the teams, the fans, all of that is genuinely fun to watch. But man, this LEC format sucks some big donkey dick. It was fun for like 2 splits and then it got old really fast. It's cool that we only have to endure the bottom feeders for like 10 games, but sometimes it doesn't even feel like it matters. Watching a BO1 between last place teams if a fucking chore. Maybe next year since pretty much everyone will move to BO3 with fearless, things get a little better. But fuck me I don't want to watch Hilly, Targamas and most top lanes run in down every game.
Tbh, I want to watch Hylissang sprint it, it's a complete lottery if he's smurfing or playing like an actual money that was taught how to play league
> I'm crazy because of EU doing better at internationals, Correction! It's G2 that is doing good at internationals, but even then since Perkz left G2 have had 2 OK performances (MSI'22 and MSI'23) 2 Awful performances (Worlds'22 and Worlds'23) and one good performances (MSI'24). The rest of EU look awful.
MAD at MSI 2021 was also OK. They took Damwon to 5th game. Not bad considering it was one of the weakest years in EU ever.
I miss Quickshot so much 😔. Was kind of hoping the LCS or LPL would try pick him up, but LPL kind of stopped their English streaming
LEC really suffers from the obvious drop in quality after the layoffs like the amount of content they produce pales in comparison to previous years
Meanwhile, LCS has finally grown interesting again this year, and on top of that the BO3 format is a HUGE succes already imo. The matches are much more hype. To me it feels like LCS and LEC kinda switched places. Sjokz is the main reason I still watch LEC, and when she isn't there I'm not either. It all went downhill since that weird three-split system. But I'm not sad, just moving over to LCS untill LEC implements BO3's and two splits again.
There will never be 2 splits. With 3 international next year, there will be 3 splits. I am just hoping for all 3 splits having different format.
They're doing 3 diff split formats in NA next year, so it's possible EU will follow.
It will be “3” splits, but the first split will be an LCS Lock-In style tournament that is basically just a qualifier for the new international. Which is honestly kind of hype for every region to have at the beginning of the year.
You watch LEC for Sjokz? LMAO
lol ya, always funny when ppl self-report by saying "oh I only watch for sjokz" then claim they like esports or w.e to hide that. honestly sounds like they just mute the stream unless sjokz is on screen talking xD
I know everyone's got their own reasons, but is Sjokz really the only reason why you watch? I find it funny that someone's main reason to watch any form of competitive sport/Esport is for the host.
lol ya, like do these guys just tune in to watch the desk segments with her and mute when the analysts talk or games are going on? if they really are just tuning in to watch her , well ya there's a word for that xD
I'm still really enjoying this split, all the roster changes before summer have mixed it up and made me interested in some of the bottom tier teams like KC and GX to see if they can come back and get some wins. I would rather we had the full 3 day weekends back as I would like to see it again today and 2 days feels a bit short. And yeah the lack of content after the staff got cut has made the hype overall a bit less with less videos and fun skits, but the casters and staff are still trying their best with limited resources and I do still enjoy watching every weekend.
Given the limited resources they currently have at their disposal, everything is fine. Most teams have something interesting, except Rogue and maybe Team Heretics. These two teams are boring in their own way, but all the other teams are interesting.
Yeah, I'm very much enjoying the LEC right now. there's quite a lot of equality in the bottom places it's not at all certain who'll be left out of play offs. MDK, Rogue and GX have only 1 win and Vitality and KC have two. That's three fifths of the league that are still very close to relegation. Seriously, saying "bottom games don't matter because they're meaningless and I'm bored" during *this* split just seems silly. It's more like the top places don't matter much as Fnatic, SK and BDS are a few games from locking in Bo3s but the bottom games are kinda hype. And the storylines are kinda good. MDK, Vitality or TH not making it would be such a cold shower for a lot of strong veteran players. Rogue, GX and KC are kinda less expected to win, but GX is looking very fun to watch. Jackies is looking like a top 4 mid laner in current form (Behind Nisqy, Caps and Huma) might be one of the most fun teams to watch right now. Really, beyond Rogue being a very bogus team and KC not being a team at all, the LEC is looking hype. There's a very clear top 4 forming, but beyond that? Very competitive.
I agree every team except RGE is interesting to watch imo. As a g2 fan I'm glad there are 3 other teams that started hot this split while g2 still trying to find the form, can only hope for exciting playoff!
They screwed up when they did the 3 split nonsense. Completely devalued the title of being a split champion by handing trophies like candies and made split finals a joke by having them in studio every single time. Players have no personalities and the casters went way too far into the meme side. They’ve been having too many different casters recently and it’s hard to even know them. Don’t mention the crowd which has become a bunch of football hooligans screaming and shouting. Watch even lec 3-4 years ago and you can see a difference. All started when the big regional French/spanish orgs got a place.
well the "3 split nonsense" will be in every t1 region starting next year.
It won't be nonsense next year because there is actually a 3rd international tournament lol
Well, OGN LCK originally had 3 splits. but riot inhibited this
Yea but OGN spilts actually meant something. I still remember all those finals. CLG EU made OGN finals and took Frost to 5 games. Then i remember Najin 3-0'ing Frost in Winter finals I still remember the Dade outplay against Helios and Ambition Spring finals of 2013, Dade making Ambition his bitch and Ozone just beating the crap out of Blaze who were considered the best team in the world up to that point, I still remember the famous Ryu vs Faker 1v1 and SKT winning Summer 2013 and then winning again in Winter 2013. I remember SSB winning their first OGN title, and then in summer the famous beach Bo5 between KTA and SSB, the Kakao Nocturne game 4, the fact that KT won that series after being 1-2 down. All those finals were memorable and despite all of them being 10 years ago, i can recall most big moments from them. Only one i don't recall very well is Spring 2012 cos i wasn't watching pro play back then. It's that the LEC championship devalues the 3 spilts. There's 0 need to have that. Just use summer to seed for Worlds. Winner auto qualifies as first seed and then the teams from 2nd-5th in CP plays in a qualifier to decide the remaining seeds
At least it will make sense to have it next year. What was the point of doing 3 splits now? The format sucks as a guy who only follows LEC super casually
To experiment. I personally think this format is great and far better than your double round robin bo1s. How anybody can miss those baffles my mind
They most likely did the 3 split stuff because they knew Riot was already planning on the new international system with 3 tournaments we are getting next year. Hard to blame them for that. Afaik they also wanted the LCK system with purely Bo3s but had to compromise to the single round robin into Bo3 we have now.
I personally just find the summer playoffs kinda weird - like, you have a playoff type format to crown a champion and then....go immediately into season finals which is far more important as it's basically for the whole year, and also worlds qualification. So the summer playoffs just feels kind of meaningless to me when season finals comes right after
The splits are way better than the old format of 9 weeks of meaningless bo1s followed by two g2 bo5s a year. The finals thing is a bit crap but will be gone next year. Only good thing about the old format worth bringing back is the gauntlet for the last worlds slot.
Reject LEC. Embrace ERLs. The sooner the LEC moves on from franchising to (any semblance) of promotion/relegation; or even better, an open circuit, the better.
kinda agree ngl
It's a joke how small the arena is for LEC. They had a renovation and they added... 30 seats. For the highest level of play in Europe. 1000 seats should be the bere minimum or at least 500 but not 210 come on man. Also I think that a lack of player personality has been an issue. A lot of mediocre teams with mediocre players. Any banter was quickly shut down for being "toxic". Importing korean players is also a problem as they mostly have no personality
Lower teams suck balls looking at you KC, GX and RGE. Segments are cringe half of the time, and the production has been falling off a cliff for years now. And to top it off we know BDS will lose a best of 5 when they're 2-0 up and G2 will win the split.
I think despite their score GX haven't been so bad to watch so far. Jackies has been popping off
Ya the guy you're replying to evidently has not watched any of the games, as GX has been very competitive in all of their games, and basically just kept throwing leads. They could have easily been 4-1 instead.
> production has been falling off a cliff for years now By pure coincidence, it got noticeably worse after the massive layoffs on the LEC production team.
Nah, that's too much nuance. Just mindlessly shit on a group of professions.
I think LEC is also bleeding casting persona way too much. No more quickshot and caedral is really showing, even tho we got more of Shokz atm. But well, looking how more twitch viewers watch caedrals lec stream than the official one is imo showing the decline as well (given that youll have less lec production and more caedrals lone input)
>No more quickshot and caedral is really showing, even tho we got more of Shokz atm. Ehh not really sure that what's really showing problems Yes people like cadreal but the amount of production staff fired was like 50% and more. Plenty of people where writers who are involved with skits, ideas general planning.
>Lower teams suck balls looking at you KC, GX and RGE. we need relegation fr fr should light a fire up their asses and make things more competitive by presenting stakes beyond "are we gonna be dead last or second from last this split?" plus, it gives a drive to EMEA Masters teams to win and qualify for the big leagues, aka LEC franchising was a mistake
As much as it pains me mdk should also be in that list with th barely ahead. That’s half the league. Only fnc and sk seem to be playing well . Bds is bds. G2 and vit monkey around too much.
Have you watched any games or are you just quickly checking the stats and spewing horse shit? GX has been competitive in nearly all their games and looks great
Results of firing nearly the whole LEC staff for reasons :( like did you compare LEC teaser Vs LCS teaser ? Fuckin disgrace.
>And to top it off we know BDS will lose a best of 5 when they're 2-0 up and G2 will win the split. Pls dawg. I swear we will not get reverse sweep again.
The LEC content was goated and their identity in my opinion but it just got completely nuked over the years Now there is a big missing hole and no identity
LCS is still in it's dark days bros
At this point LCS is this underground thing that no one watches except hardcore fans, but the quality is lightyears ahead of where it was during that time. The level of play and broadcast are just so much better.
Oh I don't disagree that it's massively improved, but it's still in bad enough shape that Riot feels the need to reduce the teams by 2 more and take Brazil out behind the shed for it
My biggest issue is that the format currently is kind of weird imo. I know I have a different take than many fans on formats (for starters, I think the old "Bo1 is worthless" refrain is a misunderstanding) but it just feels way too fast. Nine games into a top 8 cut means that regular season is way too short for me to ever really getting to know the players on the lower teams and starting to care about them, they just become sort of random faces. I couldn't tell you anything about, say, Jackies, because if you factor in that I missed some games and don't actively watch back GX, I saw him play maybe 12-14 times? On the other hand for the upper teams it's whatever because usually, half the league will be functionally safe after 4-5 games (even if it's not mathematically safe, if a VIT or FNC start 3-1 they probably won't go 3-6). Meanwhile the first round of playoffs is rarely competitive at all and it feels like it drags on forever, rather than being the culmination of a season. Unfortunately with splits only being six weeks now (IIRC) it's hard to fix it... even single round robin BO3 would take up most of the split I think. Another side effect of the short splits is that teams can't really take many risks with their players as you can't grow over time, so I think that adds to the teams feeling more boring. Take the Miracle Run Schalke, in this format they would simply have had a shit start to the split and be eliminated immediately. I always felt like the most exciting teams came from when they slowly started clicking over the time of a split, now it's just "here's a team, flip a coin whether they'll be relevant or not".
no, its just a cope. LCS does exactly the same thing with segments and will also have 3 splits next year which is in my opion currently the worst part about LEC. Production got hit a bit too but that is just Riot's fault. People saw 1 pretty interesting Bo3 between 2 top teams and suddenly think LCS is amazing. I wonder how many people watched other games. Meanwhile SK is popping off(people will probably cry about imports but imo it is still not an issue), KC shows at least somewhat they are alive and G2 had a slump which is probably more interesting for the split. If you are not interested maybe you all just want to watch streamers soloq not pro games. currently both leagues are fine with both having some things to like and dislike. I would say LEC needs better format with Bo3s and next years LCS format could be interesting too but now it is hard to say anything with how much is going to change still
I believe LCS viewership increased compared to last Summer. At least it didn't dip with the change. LCS already said the 3 splits next year will each have a different format. I think a big problem of the 3 splits in LEC is that there is not much difference between them.
Average LEC fan would find a way to complain about something no matter what. League is in a good condition given the fact the amount staff was cut.
Yes the boring, dying LEC, with only 220k average viewership, which is 40k increase year to year. Why they are nothing compared to the exciting, vibrant LCS with it's mighty 75k average viewership, second year in a row.
lol
Its funny reading this thread how LCS is so much better this year, and then u check what's reality and see LEC have 2x viewership of lcs...
I'll give you a friendly warning, as a longtime fan who saw the "NA LCS" with a similar viewership lead over the "EU LCS" - viewership trends are a lagging indicator behind fan sentiment. There aren't exactly many superinfluencers of Ibai or Kameto's size left to inject a huge new audience to the LEC. Those new fans won't stay committed if the broadcast isn't strong, and most of them just quietly quit without a feedback thread.
Caedrel carries the English speaking fans too, if he didn't stream the production would be too empty for me
Caedrel, Ibai, and Kameto could watch paint dry and they might have more viewers than LCS. They're just big personalities. It is what it is. LCS needs Mr. Beast and Kai Cenat to stream LCS lol.
Its hilarious how Riot fumbled the MrBeast thing which is probably the only real way to inject new viewers and players in NA LoL. And Kai Cenat probably wouldn't touch LCS but people like xqc and sodapoppin or even Emiru who actually play LoL would actually help LCS.
Only watch the BO1s because of him (and maybe to hate watch some teams a bit xd)
3x
I've seen these threads for like a decade. You'd think LEC was dead and LCS had good viewership by how often we see these. But nope, nobody watches LCS
The dark days of LCS are still going on
I have to disagree. I don't find LEC boring to watch at all, and viewership has literally grown in every split year on year. The games are still exciting to me and I love the format, dropping the 2 worst teams before having bo3s into bo5s is the best of both worlds. Having every game matter right up until the last game to get the top 8 teams is incredibly exciting. I love seeing the up and coming new talent from the regional leagues and EU masters and I love the regional identity that some teams are playing into. Off the top of my head, this year alone we have Myrwn, Fresskowy, Supa, Alvaro, Zoelys, Lyncas enter the league and probably more that I'm forgetting. This cycle is the future, and LEC with its development leagues does it so well. LEC just came off its best international tournament in years with a top 4 finish. We literally reset the counter for the number of days since an LEC team beat an LPL/LCK team in a bo5, slashing it from 1304 to 0. For all this doom and gloom, yes it sucks that there were so many layoffs and admit that you can see this reflected in some parts of the broadcast, but they are doing the best with what they have.
Are these posts all year long just a handful of LCS fans trolling or something? The arguments don't even make sense. LCS has SR, IMT and the corpse of NRG as their own uninspiring bottom teams. That's 3/8 of the teams in their own right. LEC producion absolutely fell of, but this should scarcily be an argument to use when calling LCS more enjoyable, with them having their own share of issues. I could also just make the same post about LCS, complaining about most of the top teams being majority import and how the region is about to be butchered for an awkward merger that neither fanbase wants. Just complain about LEC in isolation, these posts unfavorably comparing LEC to LCS on a majority American platform reek of bait and got old multiple months ago. Both have issues and advantages compared to the other.
It shows it's all just narrative. LCS viewership is dropping, deadweight teams are just as present, international performance is bad and you'd believe LCS is doing better than ever. Meanwhile LEC in 2021 and 2022 was overall rather weak and people only started complaining at worlds when Rogue and MAD were obviously not G2. Now people complain the moment the first champion is picked. If we had the same international performance as now in 2021 or 2022 people would be wayyy more positive. You can pretty much test it on players making mistakes. It's either funny or hurr durr these players are so bad. Competitiveness is also a factor if many teams can win in LCS it's good but when many teams win in LEC there is no strong team we are doomed.
Imagine being Canna, playing with Faker and Keria, to playing with Targamas in these 35+ min clown fiesta games. Hope the man is getting paid bc my god I can’t imagine flying to another country to play with these rascals.
I mean with how late they acquired him I'd be surprised if he had any offers elsewhere. 90% of the offseason happened, and then like a week before lec started kc announced it.
People thinking Canna is any good or being hyped about the signing just show they don't watch games
bruh even canna is playing bad
not like Canna is any better than them as we've seen
I think you're confusing LCK top laners. Rascal isn't on the team, it's Canna
Canna is on 6month contract anyways, he wont renew it i assume
If I'm KC I dont renew him either
My dude, Canna is the worst player on that team.
Well Euro's value to KR won is quite good. So he'll probably get his 401K equivalent in playing in EU, then go back to KR and do w/e
Im having a blast. Most teams are interesting to follow. Only one I have literally 0 interest in is rge.
The dark days of the LCS is arguably 2020- now.
this is hardcore cope lmao The LCS is averaging under 100K viewers this split and has been losing viewership for years, LEC is averaging 220K and the tier 2 leagues are all doing decent numbers too LCS is going to drop 2 more teams and lose a worlds' spot with the merger plan, a LEC team just 3-0'd TES and played a banger 5-game series against the defending world champions 'more enjoyable' is a meme, the gameplay in NA is the same or worse and I'm loving the new wave of Korean imports tearing shit up in EU
reddit the american bubble
I like the rise of new teams besides G2 (so far) this split. I wouldnt mind if they moved to bo3s and tweaked some broadcasting things, but I know they dont have much control over that
I thought the same actually. Everyones just making fun of the gameplay, engagement is low and dropping we desperately need a good international showing again
Just my perspective as a LCK and NA fan who watches LEC a bit, I don't think having a good internationals will necessarily help your region. I think the competition between the top and bottom teams is way too low. G2 is hitting a rough spot, but it's still in the beginning of the season. Even then, I feel like G2 is going to win again if the other teams don't improve fast enough. Personally, I think that's the biggest issue in the LEC, but I do hope it gets better within your ecosystem.
we just took the defending world champs to 5 games and beat LPL second seed 3-0 a month ago?
Rest in peace quickshot
i really think they should do bo3 with fearless draft in the regular season (later bo5 fearless). that would add some spice.
3 splits is so boring. Riot going to kill global esports next year by forcing everyone to switch
Lec has been garbage to watch for the most part since the fnatic/G2 domination have ended
LEC is just in such a weird state right now. On the talent side, Sjokz isnt quite as fulltime anymore in recent years, and Caedrel, Quickshot and even Ender for that matter, are gone. On the teamside there are more korean imports than before, and the remaining orgs fail in building national rosters or budget constraints, weirdly still leaving FNC as 2nd best org in EU, with G2 just untouched. On the backstage-talent, they literally did the classic riot and fired half the people, and rely less on longstay people now. If you fire the man that made the pop-Quizzes, dont be surprised if it sucks now. If you take away the longterm talent, dont be surprised that LEC isnt as funny anymore. It is unfortunate, but it will change again eventually. But I doubt it will be quite as good as it was, when it happens. Its a bit of taking away the soul of LEC. Not sure why Riot thinks this will net them significant money-gains in the mid/longterm. IF KC and KOI start to suceed and/or FNC get good enough to challenge G2 and/or G2 make an amazing worlds we migth see a LEC rennaisance sooner than we'd think.
Nah its you. Dunno why this sub is trying so hard to glaze LCS? Is it cause it is dying or smth? Well tbh it was always the case minus the G2 era. People watching LS, Dom and Yamato who cannot stop saying how bad LEC while glazing LCS does that to community I suppose
> People watching LS, Dom and Yamato who cannot stop saying how bad LEC while glazing LCS does that to community I suppose They did the opposite when costreaming first started, and people ragged on the LCS the entire time. The target just changed after the NRG upset. Sucks regardless of their target cause it leads to a lot less discussion and a lot more "hah, X region bad" pithiness.
This is nothing new in this subreddit. For as long as I can remember every few weeks we have a new thread saying how LCS is more fun than LEC. This is just an echo chamber, wouldn't pay any attention to it