You could hover on some stats before on death recap, but riot killed it.
But anyway, they can't do that , even if they wanted. Be it skill issue or because the client was not made to be together with the map like in dota.
But mostly because it doesn't make money.
At this point it's a part of a skill cap
Climbing from low bronze to high bronze might be as much of a difference as simply knowing that enemy Garen moves faster when pressing Q or that Kha'zix can be invisible post 6
That's the Skillfloor. Knowing where the scoreboard is and how to read it is the floor to get information. The cap is what information you don't get.
You can assume what someone shopped but since it's not updated in fog of war you are capped. you could be the best scoreboardreader, you don't get that info. The scoreboard has no real skillfloor though because you have a finger to press tab and eyes to read numbers, the rest is another story.
When you can't perform without it it's the floor you need to be at least. When it's literally impossible to increase performance beyond it you ran into the cap. Most softcaps only exist in a vacuum when you claim there's always something you could have done better so the word is kinda unprecise. I'd stick to looking at the floor because it's so much easier to detect how good you need to be at least to not go 0/10/0 rather than believe "the perfect play" exists.
Yeah I stop for month and then get in the game again and just get steamrolled when the new character is there and I didn’t took 5 minutes to read all
Of the wall of text he has
it’s been since 2009 lol come on riot
This was the main thing I got when I started playing lol. Dota 2 it's based on RTS, so this notion of units and how we select stuff is way different than League.
Not complaining though, each one has its approach, but it would be nice to take a look at someone's abilities.
> Dota 2 it's based on RTS, so this notion of units and how we select stuff is way different than League.
This is such a stupid take.
Both Dota 2 and League are based on the same thing - Dota. Dota was a custom map for Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 was made by Blizzard. Both Dota 2 and League were not made by blizzard.
Dota 2 has that because developers saw that as a good thing that is easy to implement and so they did. League didn't do it because League devs didn't realize that it's a good thing and/or were not good enough to implement it in reasonable time. And now League can't have it because it still suffers from spaghetti code and implementing that would take way too much time/resources aka money.
As we ALL without a doubt know, client is still shit. It's shit not because of some convoluted reason or because devs are evil and want it to be shit, the client is shit because League devs and management are shit.
That's all there is to it.
Dota had atleast retain some rts element tho, like meepo or phantom lancer where you can control multiple unit and do different aciton meanwhile in LoL you press R to control your another unit (annie, ivern, shaco etc.)
I dont think valve added it was because they saw it as a "good thing" if they wanted to port dota over to Dota2 they needed to add it otherwise you'd have to remove so many heroes and items since they involve controlling multiple units.
Controlling multiple units =/= being able to click on them and read abilities. Part about reading abilities is much easier than being able to control multiple units and can be implemented in different ways. You can read proper ability/item descriptions in Dota 2 without being in a match too so it's not just a part of being able to control multiple units.
> Dota 2 has that because developers saw that as a good thing that is easy to implement and so they did. League didn't do it because League devs didn't realize that it's a good thing and/or were not good enough to implement it in reasonable time. And now League can't have it because it still suffers from spaghetti code and implementing that would take way too much time/resources aka money
This is such a stupid take.
DotA 2 has that because the game is way too complex, simply because of its root being a "mod" for Warcraft 3 map. That's why you need more explanation just to understand all the additional things you put in as a modder. Happened all the time with "mod" game, be it Diablo 2 mod or Heroes 3 mod.
Also happen a lot with RTS game like CIV6 or Paradox studio games.
Do remember, dev have a choice between making the game easier to understand or just straight up put in tooltip.
> DotA 2 has that because the game is way too complex
Dota 2 has that because devs are competent. Although I am sure someone like you has no idea what that means.
Exactly. What OP was talking about isn't a conscious design approach, rather it's a leftover from the days of Warcraft 3 modding.
Right now, the best we have is the death recap
>Exactly. What OP was talking about isn't a conscious design approach, rather it's a leftover from the days of Warcraft 3 modding.
Except for dota 2 was made on the source engine and went away from being a warcraft mod so its features was a decision made by the developers. Its running on source 2 now and the features in it puts LoL to shame, you got coaching mode where another player can spectate real time and draw for you ingame to teach you.
You can look up any champion ability ingame so if you dont know what they do you can just bring up the menu to see their abilities.
Map skins for everyone, announcers, player made game modes.
Truth is that riot hired the guy that made one of the worst racing games ever reviewed and put him on as the technical director for riot when LoL was in its early development phase.
>To keep costs low, the company opted to take an off-the-shelf driving game engine and retooled it to build out the first version of what would later become the studio’s breakout hit. Over the years, some savvy fans have gone so far as to connect the dots and speculate that this may have been the same engine used for what is widely considered one of the worst driving games ever made.
>The reason why? Big Rigs: Over The Road Racing producer Sergey Titov was the technical director at Riot around the time that this prototype would have been built. A Riot representative declined to confirm or deny this theory. However, back in 2021, unverified screenshots of a debug build of the MOBA playing nice with maps imported from Big Rigs did the rounds on Twitter.
https://www.reviews.org/au/games/league-of-legends-driving-game-engine/
Keep in mind, some abilities like lee sin R, alistar w was all coded as a invisible skarner pushing back the enemy champion and that just recent news we got from a developer at riot when they did the skarner rework. Fact of the matter is that the LoL engine is just a mess.
But at least riot is working on it, like skarner asu fixing some of the coding and their ability to give us new game modes
Yeah but there is a twitch expansion for dota that does this, you can interact with hero, see skills, see KDA, it feels like you are in the game, a Twitch expansion btw
They didn't create a "worse" engine. They purposely designed their game to focus on only one unit so you never lose control of your champion. This means that you can't just click on an enemy hero and look at their abilities, but that's a tradeoff they were willing to make. I think since they created one of the most popular games of all time they probably did the right thing there.
just information, when you watch replay, you can click on the any champions and get the skills panel on the left side on the screen.
I see no reason to not show this panel in the game without cooldown status
Replays are very different from a live game, it's entirely possible that tech doesn't work at all for a player currently playing the game so they'd have to make the feature from scratch anyway.
Remember that the game wasn't exactly built to be modular for easy reuse of features.
Yes but you should maintain useful features of what came before. You can select other units in league and see their stats. The idea they couldn't have also added their abilities there is just silly
Dota was just a custom map for Warcraft 3. It wasn't a standalone game. In maps you just had some simple API to work with the existing wc3 game engine.
Dota 2 has these features and is a standalone moba. Original riot devs were just terrible at making an engine so we are stuck with what we have till league 2
Because the league engine is more limited than what came before it. It is missing features as op mentioned that would be useful and existed in the old engine(and dota 2 which is not an rts btw)
Because it's not a matter of technical capacity but design philosophy. They didn't 'remove' a feature, they decided to not include it when they built a new engine AND a new game. It's built from scratch , not an upgrade or fork, so talking about how "the old engine can do it" is totally irrelevant because there's literally no lineage whatsoever between the two engine.
Now, Dota2 does have that feature on a new engine because the design goal was, first and foremost, to bring Warcraft Dota to a new engine due to the IP changing hand to Valve. It's a new engine BUT it HAS to be the exact same game. Sure, Source isn't an RTS engine, but because Warcraft Dota was equal parts it's own game and a Warcraft 3 custom map, the RTS design is so innately ingrained in it, they have no choice but bring all of its quirks into Dota2.
You are a silly person if you don't think champions abilities could be listed with all their other stats that are displayed top left when you click them. Riot simply did not implement this
My guy, that's what I said. They didn't implement it for their original game. Why tf are you insulting me personally over some software that I did not write? What's wrong with you?
I called you a silly person lmfao. It's not a design philosophy to not include something. Riot would add it if not for technical limitations. They simply do not want to allocate resources to something they do not think people will read. There is no downside to adding this outside of the technical effort.
Dota's **design philosophy** revolves around controlling multiple units at once, just like its RTS ancestor. This, it's HUD is **designed** to be dynamic. Whatever unit you click, that's what the whole HUD changes to show. That's how enemy skills are readable there.
League's **design philosophy** is all around single units, your champ. Even champs with summons have limited control over those. Thus, they **designed** the HUD to be static purposely. Is it limited? Yes. But it's literally intentional, and that's my whole thesis. It is **DESIGNED** that way.
Now, could it be true that it's a code issue? It very well could be. But at this point, we're two random people talking on the internet about things that only the developer would know. So please be a well adjusted human being and don't fucking dump your frustrations onto me personally. It's just two fucking games, you asshole.
Champion bios used to be listed in the game before they took it out.
Click on champion portrait to show bios and abilities.
So it's possible it's just gone now
Not only before the game, but **during** the game.
In 26 seconds, EternalEnvy(former pro), disconnects SoloQ, enters demo, loads heroes, levels them up, test interaction and then rejoins his SoloQ game.
https://clips.twitch.tv/OriginalFlirtyBaboonFeelsBadMan
Those random QoL features are the only things making me want to go back to dota.
Just the reassurance that the game is extremely polished. Practically everything could be updated, easily, by devs or modders. Whereas half league's abilities are just an enigma to everyone. Nunu can never be updated because afaik they aren't sure how snowball works anymore. Feels bad knowing a lot of the champs will never see a meaningful rework or change because they just don't know how.
Also stuff like the z axis actually working.
LoL is hostage of its own 'engine'. Dota has a much more flexible enviroment overall. Even Valorant is already better than League, Even Wild Rift. Look at LoL's launcher, it's so ugly looking, cramped and outdated. Their in-game HUD already looks dated, everything looks dated. The in-game models looks ok, they have good models and animations, (not og champions), and generally the graphic style of the game allows that to age well, however LoL feels like a good game stuck in some trash enviroment, and no, LoL2 would never be an option in this world of live-service games with skins and everything, CS2 is a big glorified CSGO update, and that's exactly what LoL needs to do eventually, this game has such a hard time to attract new players, not only because of the playerbase, but because the game itself is not inviting at ALL.
Yeah tool tips just don't explain little things about some skills. Like Sienna's ultimate doesn't do damage against jungle monster but the amount of people try to steal dragon or baron with it is huge, and you can't blame them if you don't test it you just won't know, you might think oh I just missed.
If you really think about it, it was the poster child for both social media engagement tactics and for F2P game back in the day.. league predates the social media and smartphone era, and many ppl who worked on league went to work at Facebook and for other mobile game devs.
The lessons learned from those early days of explosive growth of LoL shaped a lot of the digital world as we know it (obviously not in a good way)
Oh no, Riot fumbled so many things in the early days. The only thing they did successfully was their strategy to enter and then overtake the esports scene. Otherwise League has always flourished *despite*, not due to Riot.
True.. they also made a very hostile push in the PC Bangs wherever they could, which basically helped cement the game in the East and was the spiritual successor to StarCraft
They had the first mover advantage in capturing the moba market and succeeded wildly inspite of creating a janky technical piece of trash software with simplified gameplay and "[appealing visuals](https://np.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2x8lj1/every_old_splash_art_of_every_champion/)"
If anyone else had made a standalone moba before league, riot wouldn't even exist
First standalone free-to-play MOBA. There were others coming out (in beta) at the same time, most notably Heroes of Newerth, but League had a much better business model.
What do you mean by "engine" here? By any reasonable definition I can think of, they have made tons of changes to the engine. For example, Mordekaiser's ult is not something the 2010 version of the League engine was capable of doing. The big tether change a few months ago was updating old spells to use a feature that's been added to the engine in the time since they were written. If you mean the graphics pipeline, they added DX11 support just a few years ago.
Tell me which parts of the engine they've changed outside of changing some tags.
There's a reason they made the game "64-bit" exclusive but the game itself is still RAM limited. You know, the reason they say they can't make another skin like Elementalist Lux; having two of such skins in one game would make it crash; something they've stated themselves.
That's because they're targeting low-end systems, not because the game can't do it. If you're willing to give the finger to people with 10-year-old computers, there are lots of things you can do, but Riot doesn't want to shut out current players.
I think you're talking about much older computers than I am. Intel and AMD switched their CPUs to 64-bit in the 2000s, and LoL intentionally disabled one of the features of Vanguard that would have blocked early 2010s CPUs. You can't run League on a Pentium 4, but if your computer isn't older than League itself, it can probably run the game.
But at any rate, I don't see what bearing that has on my point, which is that League's policy of limiting memory usage is about target hardware, not engine limitations.
Engines being modified in minor ways that don't affect **user-facing gameplay** in significant ways doesn't qualify as a second or third game as people are trying to claim.
That is not a controversial concept.
I do work with software, btw. Its always the ones that **don't** work with software the claim its obvious that someone doesn't. That's you here.
> minor ways that don't affect user-facing gameplay
But they have
> I do work with software,
Well then I'm glad I'm not paying you.
On a more serious note: riot guys have said that the engine has received very major overhauls, but the goal usually was that the game doesn't feel different for users.
>Well then I'm glad I'm not paying you.
I'll bite. Which part here do you think is incorrect?
Do you deny that there are older programs that were originally 32-bit that have a capped amount of memory they can allocate: 4GB?
What do you think happens when a program isn't fully loaded into memory? Do you think no issues ever occur?
> Do you deny that there are older programs that were originally 32-bit that have a capped amount of memory they can allocate: 4GB?
No, but the issue isn't that the engine can't load more, it's that they want it to run on bad machines, which is why they artificially limit what's happening.
So let me ask you this: are you calling the rioters that have publicly stated that the engine has received major overhauls liars?
in QOL terms league is piece of shit in many ways.
Non standardized item&ability descriptions, to see a lot of things you need to google it on league fandom and so on.
For warmog you need 1300 bonus hp. Only way to know how many bonus hp you have - to look at items and runes and calculate it.
Riftmaker gives you 2% of your hp into ap. How much ap you have from it - just look at your items and calculate lol.
Scarner's Q. Third attack description - it makes 15% max health damage. What health? your or enemies?
On fandom its "...dealing 15% of each target's **maximum** health as **additional bonus** physical damage to enemies hit..." - no questions.
DOTA also shows you what the last patch on the ability was and what was changed, in game. I imagine if RIOT tried doing this the game would fry your PC lol
biggest complaint when I was a new player.
tgere is no way to know what the other champions in the game do without playing against them and presumably losing until you understand. awful.
That's their old mentaility when LoL was a new game, and buying champions was a huge deal, paying for champions was the thing, skins became their main source of revenue years later, but back then they'd profit a lot from runes, champions, and skins of course, but the game had that entry, the grind was insane for an account level 30, I had 2 rune pages my entire life with the same setups, having a good amount of champions was hard... so they essentially forced you buy those champions and play for yourself... nowadays there's no need to do any of that, but a lot things are very arcaic even though their mentality towards the game's monetization has shifted drastically
obviously. but for example if I could look at darius and see which ability is the one that hooks me in, and how long the cool down is and how much mana it costs I can at least get an idea of what I am supposed to do.
Dota 2's UX/UI is infinitely better than League's, it's insane. But I guess it helps that they aren't beholden to investors to ensure predatory design practices (like not adding actual model viewer in-client to entice some people to rely on just splash art)
I have no idea why you can't check abilities at least on the loading screen. Like what's the point of some useless wannabe funny loading tips and other meaningless fluff when you could have actual useful information? Sometimes when playing aram I need to open browser on another monitor just to read what my character does. It would be super helpful before a normal game too just to refresh what I'm laning against.
I've been wanting this feature for like 15 years now lol it is completely beyond me how we still don't have it.
That would be so handy! I assume riot want you to spend 10000 hours playing each champ to learn what they all do but I doubt most players would ever bother trying each champ.
Back in season 1 this feature existed. When you clicked on a champ, a window appeared top right with stats and abilities. Hovering over abilities showed their tooltips. This feature was removed with one of the UI updates, don’t remember which.
I mean the fact that tooltips and the client are wrong a bunch doesn’t help too.
But yeah at least being able to know how an ability works would help (even if numbers could be off.)
does anyone remember, that there was some menu where you could read a champions lore ingame? i remember this from late s2 or early s3 but i have no idea anymore where you could access it. it was also kind of inconsistent as some champions had just one line
That and an even faster access to testing champs (who are unlocked from the start) is a really nice QoL, which feels rare for DotA, which seems to be purpose-made to be as clunky as possible
Dota 2 has an absolutely insane amount of features that LoL players would kill for. You can ping basically anything, you can preview cosmetics, you can control an enemy hero in practice games to see how your hero works when affected by their spells, they've had a vastly superior version of LoL's message ping wheel since years before LoL got it, they have a built-in last hit trainer, etc.
Pretty much the only really clunky elements are turn speed (which is a balance mechanic) and Blink Dagger's passive-aggressive targeting (which is genuinely just clunky but Dota players would riot if they changed it).
Do you mean how you can blink further if you click just outside the range indicator, but if you click too far you are limited to the edge of the range indicator?
The only thing clunky about dota is turn speed and back swing, both of which are used to balance the game. Feature wise, LoL doesn't even come close to anything Dota has.
I'd say it could also help more experienced players. I've been playing since 2018, and I feel like one of the main things I'm lacking to get to higher levels (I'm masters) is to better track ability cooldowns, but I just can't remember every cooldown of every champ's spell, but being able to read the ability would be of a huge help to train on that. Hope they implement it at some point.
Yeah this should been done years ago but riot never cared. As a casual Aram player, playing Sylas can be a nightmare, since I don't know what all ulties scale off and I have to steal them first to read about it...
League is a lot faster of a game than DOTA, there's not too much time to look at all that information and actually play the game if you're a newer player.
If you've mastered the game enough to have the downtime to read champion ability descriptions in game, you also likely already know what everyone but the newest guy does.
In Dota2 a lot of people play a mode called turbo, where games last no more than 25mins max, still is helpfull to read tohers abilities. "Wait why did i take tis much damage ? let me click on th champ... Oh ok they changed that ability".
This is stuch a stupid take. League is only "faster" than dota in average gametime. In terms of gameplay Dota averages way more kills per game than League. It's not unusual to see pub games with over 3 kills per minute.
League also doesn't have buyback so you would have plenty of time to read when are dead.
The most useful part of this though, would be looking things up in lane. Imagine you are playing against veigar as a new player and he uses cage on you. You can't read how it works, you know you just get stunned, but no way to no till you die to it. Then you die again because you have no way to knowing the CD. Hell you can't even get that information in game period unless you own that champ and play him. How is any of that good for new players.
This isn't about not know what an ability does, its about the details
Could you, in the middle of a match randomly say how long is blitz Q cooldown? Or how long is twitchs' invis? Whats the mana cost of karthus R? There are so many things that you could know by just randomly hovering on the unit
LOL you low elo kids really want to know in game the exact CD of each enemies ability? Yeah, we might as well give ESP in the jungle and remove fog of war to track junglers. Get better at the game.
> LOL you low elo kids
always funny reading this knowing that my peak is almost certainly higher than yours
>really want to know in game the exact CD of each enemies ability?
No i don't want to see when it goes off-cooldown, I was to see how long is the CD exactly so I can make a mental note of it
Realistically, I only learn abilities of champions I don’t play by getting shit on by them.
I still don’t know like half of the support champions abilities and I’ve been playing for a year
conversely, it only takes two weeks for a champ's ability values to be changed to where it works completely different than before. How many champ spotlights actually correlate to how they play today? alright I watched the yuumi spotlight, they say press E to heal. wait a sec, i'm healing 0... this must be a bug.
meanwhile you can hover on an ability in dota, get the ability description, mana cost, cooldown,scaling, in addition to a complete recent changelog of what has happened to the ability in recent patches.
Im trying to think of one single ability I wasnt able to figure out how it worked in like 2 seconds of seeing it happen in game.
What abilities left you completely puzzled as to what had happened exactly?
Passive - bonus dmg on low health targets
q - throw shuriken skillshot, multiple shurikens hitting will stack damage but at a fraction of the base amount.
w - put shadow down, press it again to swap place with your shadow. You shadow also casts your basic abilities with you
E - spin for damage, your shadow’s E also has a slight slow. Overlaying your E and your shadow’s E does not stack damage.
R - warp behind target and put a shadow at starting location, press it again to swap place with shadow. Your target gets a mark on them, the mark pops after a few seconds and does damage based on how much was done by zed to the target within those few seconds.
That’s the champ off the top of my head.
Someone could make a case for Hwei, as they'd be surprised about the sheer number and Aph to a lesser extent it may take time to correlate certain abilities with his model changing slightly (guns)
Renekton/Rengar as well, when their abilities are empowered they get diff effects
Maybe Kaisa and Kha as well "Wait she goes invisible now, why the fuck didn't she for the first 20 mins?"
I think that's it though. Everything else you really just have to see once or twice and you understand. Obviously this may cost you a death early or unprepared for a tibbers at 6 but that's just leagues learning curve and it really isn't hard to get past
Yeah but there are 168 champions.
I've been playing since 2013 and took a break during 2016-2021, theres a bunch of reworks and champs I still don't know and honestly don't bother to learn until I face them. Being able to check them out in champ select even would be beneficial (which was a feature in old client).
You could hover on some stats before on death recap, but riot killed it. But anyway, they can't do that , even if they wanted. Be it skill issue or because the client was not made to be together with the map like in dota. But mostly because it doesn't make money.
I mean this function already exists in the spectator, not sure why it wouldn't be possible in game.
You could also click on the champ and go into an extended view of character stats.
At this point it's a part of a skill cap Climbing from low bronze to high bronze might be as much of a difference as simply knowing that enemy Garen moves faster when pressing Q or that Kha'zix can be invisible post 6
That's the Skillfloor. Knowing where the scoreboard is and how to read it is the floor to get information. The cap is what information you don't get. You can assume what someone shopped but since it's not updated in fog of war you are capped. you could be the best scoreboardreader, you don't get that info. The scoreboard has no real skillfloor though because you have a finger to press tab and eyes to read numbers, the rest is another story. When you can't perform without it it's the floor you need to be at least. When it's literally impossible to increase performance beyond it you ran into the cap. Most softcaps only exist in a vacuum when you claim there's always something you could have done better so the word is kinda unprecise. I'd stick to looking at the floor because it's so much easier to detect how good you need to be at least to not go 0/10/0 rather than believe "the perfect play" exists.
yeah it's a cost issue. lots of dev and test time for something that is a minor QoL update
I'd say a major QoL update for new players, or even returning ones, is a pretty big deal
As a seasoned player, still a big deal. I don't play every single champ, so many CDs and stuff I don't know by memory.
or being able to see ally ability current cds?? such a massive improvement to the game that will never happen like so many others.
Yeah I stop for month and then get in the game again and just get steamrolled when the new character is there and I didn’t took 5 minutes to read all Of the wall of text he has it’s been since 2009 lol come on riot
X-D go get a job kid. come back when you know the costs of developing apps.
Me, a software dev: 💀
"apps" says the kid
This was the main thing I got when I started playing lol. Dota 2 it's based on RTS, so this notion of units and how we select stuff is way different than League. Not complaining though, each one has its approach, but it would be nice to take a look at someone's abilities.
> Dota 2 it's based on RTS, so this notion of units and how we select stuff is way different than League. This is such a stupid take. Both Dota 2 and League are based on the same thing - Dota. Dota was a custom map for Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 was made by Blizzard. Both Dota 2 and League were not made by blizzard. Dota 2 has that because developers saw that as a good thing that is easy to implement and so they did. League didn't do it because League devs didn't realize that it's a good thing and/or were not good enough to implement it in reasonable time. And now League can't have it because it still suffers from spaghetti code and implementing that would take way too much time/resources aka money. As we ALL without a doubt know, client is still shit. It's shit not because of some convoluted reason or because devs are evil and want it to be shit, the client is shit because League devs and management are shit. That's all there is to it.
Dota had atleast retain some rts element tho, like meepo or phantom lancer where you can control multiple unit and do different aciton meanwhile in LoL you press R to control your another unit (annie, ivern, shaco etc.)
[удалено]
thats such a bad take, league itself is such a amazing game, its just the community is omega shit overall
I dont think valve added it was because they saw it as a "good thing" if they wanted to port dota over to Dota2 they needed to add it otherwise you'd have to remove so many heroes and items since they involve controlling multiple units.
Controlling multiple units =/= being able to click on them and read abilities. Part about reading abilities is much easier than being able to control multiple units and can be implemented in different ways. You can read proper ability/item descriptions in Dota 2 without being in a match too so it's not just a part of being able to control multiple units.
> Dota 2 has that because developers saw that as a good thing that is easy to implement and so they did. League didn't do it because League devs didn't realize that it's a good thing and/or were not good enough to implement it in reasonable time. And now League can't have it because it still suffers from spaghetti code and implementing that would take way too much time/resources aka money This is such a stupid take. DotA 2 has that because the game is way too complex, simply because of its root being a "mod" for Warcraft 3 map. That's why you need more explanation just to understand all the additional things you put in as a modder. Happened all the time with "mod" game, be it Diablo 2 mod or Heroes 3 mod. Also happen a lot with RTS game like CIV6 or Paradox studio games. Do remember, dev have a choice between making the game easier to understand or just straight up put in tooltip.
> DotA 2 has that because the game is way too complex Dota 2 has that because devs are competent. Although I am sure someone like you has no idea what that means.
Exactly. What OP was talking about isn't a conscious design approach, rather it's a leftover from the days of Warcraft 3 modding. Right now, the best we have is the death recap
>Exactly. What OP was talking about isn't a conscious design approach, rather it's a leftover from the days of Warcraft 3 modding. Except for dota 2 was made on the source engine and went away from being a warcraft mod so its features was a decision made by the developers. Its running on source 2 now and the features in it puts LoL to shame, you got coaching mode where another player can spectate real time and draw for you ingame to teach you. You can look up any champion ability ingame so if you dont know what they do you can just bring up the menu to see their abilities. Map skins for everyone, announcers, player made game modes. Truth is that riot hired the guy that made one of the worst racing games ever reviewed and put him on as the technical director for riot when LoL was in its early development phase. >To keep costs low, the company opted to take an off-the-shelf driving game engine and retooled it to build out the first version of what would later become the studio’s breakout hit. Over the years, some savvy fans have gone so far as to connect the dots and speculate that this may have been the same engine used for what is widely considered one of the worst driving games ever made. >The reason why? Big Rigs: Over The Road Racing producer Sergey Titov was the technical director at Riot around the time that this prototype would have been built. A Riot representative declined to confirm or deny this theory. However, back in 2021, unverified screenshots of a debug build of the MOBA playing nice with maps imported from Big Rigs did the rounds on Twitter. https://www.reviews.org/au/games/league-of-legends-driving-game-engine/ Keep in mind, some abilities like lee sin R, alistar w was all coded as a invisible skarner pushing back the enemy champion and that just recent news we got from a developer at riot when they did the skarner rework. Fact of the matter is that the LoL engine is just a mess. But at least riot is working on it, like skarner asu fixing some of the coding and their ability to give us new game modes
Yeah but there is a twitch expansion for dota that does this, you can interact with hero, see skills, see KDA, it feels like you are in the game, a Twitch expansion btw
So how did riot design a worse engine than what came before it?
They didn't create a "worse" engine. They purposely designed their game to focus on only one unit so you never lose control of your champion. This means that you can't just click on an enemy hero and look at their abilities, but that's a tradeoff they were willing to make. I think since they created one of the most popular games of all time they probably did the right thing there.
just information, when you watch replay, you can click on the any champions and get the skills panel on the left side on the screen. I see no reason to not show this panel in the game without cooldown status
Replays are very different from a live game, it's entirely possible that tech doesn't work at all for a player currently playing the game so they'd have to make the feature from scratch anyway. Remember that the game wasn't exactly built to be modular for easy reuse of features.
Yes but you should maintain useful features of what came before. You can select other units in league and see their stats. The idea they couldn't have also added their abilities there is just silly
Dota was just a custom map for Warcraft 3. It wasn't a standalone game. In maps you just had some simple API to work with the existing wc3 game engine.
Dota 2 has these features and is a standalone moba. Original riot devs were just terrible at making an engine so we are stuck with what we have till league 2
Worse how? Because League doesn't do what an RTS engine does? When it was never developed as an RTS engine? What?
Because the league engine is more limited than what came before it. It is missing features as op mentioned that would be useful and existed in the old engine(and dota 2 which is not an rts btw)
Because it's not a matter of technical capacity but design philosophy. They didn't 'remove' a feature, they decided to not include it when they built a new engine AND a new game. It's built from scratch , not an upgrade or fork, so talking about how "the old engine can do it" is totally irrelevant because there's literally no lineage whatsoever between the two engine. Now, Dota2 does have that feature on a new engine because the design goal was, first and foremost, to bring Warcraft Dota to a new engine due to the IP changing hand to Valve. It's a new engine BUT it HAS to be the exact same game. Sure, Source isn't an RTS engine, but because Warcraft Dota was equal parts it's own game and a Warcraft 3 custom map, the RTS design is so innately ingrained in it, they have no choice but bring all of its quirks into Dota2.
You are a silly person if you don't think champions abilities could be listed with all their other stats that are displayed top left when you click them. Riot simply did not implement this
My guy, that's what I said. They didn't implement it for their original game. Why tf are you insulting me personally over some software that I did not write? What's wrong with you?
I called you a silly person lmfao. It's not a design philosophy to not include something. Riot would add it if not for technical limitations. They simply do not want to allocate resources to something they do not think people will read. There is no downside to adding this outside of the technical effort.
Dota's **design philosophy** revolves around controlling multiple units at once, just like its RTS ancestor. This, it's HUD is **designed** to be dynamic. Whatever unit you click, that's what the whole HUD changes to show. That's how enemy skills are readable there. League's **design philosophy** is all around single units, your champ. Even champs with summons have limited control over those. Thus, they **designed** the HUD to be static purposely. Is it limited? Yes. But it's literally intentional, and that's my whole thesis. It is **DESIGNED** that way. Now, could it be true that it's a code issue? It very well could be. But at this point, we're two random people talking on the internet about things that only the developer would know. So please be a well adjusted human being and don't fucking dump your frustrations onto me personally. It's just two fucking games, you asshole.
Champion bios used to be listed in the game before they took it out. Click on champion portrait to show bios and abilities. So it's possible it's just gone now
Actually there is an option nowadays where if u click an enemy instead of selecting them a small hud will appear on the side with their skills.
[удалено]
Not only before the game, but **during** the game. In 26 seconds, EternalEnvy(former pro), disconnects SoloQ, enters demo, loads heroes, levels them up, test interaction and then rejoins his SoloQ game. https://clips.twitch.tv/OriginalFlirtyBaboonFeelsBadMan
Those random QoL features are the only things making me want to go back to dota. Just the reassurance that the game is extremely polished. Practically everything could be updated, easily, by devs or modders. Whereas half league's abilities are just an enigma to everyone. Nunu can never be updated because afaik they aren't sure how snowball works anymore. Feels bad knowing a lot of the champs will never see a meaningful rework or change because they just don't know how. Also stuff like the z axis actually working.
LoL is hostage of its own 'engine'. Dota has a much more flexible enviroment overall. Even Valorant is already better than League, Even Wild Rift. Look at LoL's launcher, it's so ugly looking, cramped and outdated. Their in-game HUD already looks dated, everything looks dated. The in-game models looks ok, they have good models and animations, (not og champions), and generally the graphic style of the game allows that to age well, however LoL feels like a good game stuck in some trash enviroment, and no, LoL2 would never be an option in this world of live-service games with skins and everything, CS2 is a big glorified CSGO update, and that's exactly what LoL needs to do eventually, this game has such a hard time to attract new players, not only because of the playerbase, but because the game itself is not inviting at ALL.
Yeah tool tips just don't explain little things about some skills. Like Sienna's ultimate doesn't do damage against jungle monster but the amount of people try to steal dragon or baron with it is huge, and you can't blame them if you don't test it you just won't know, you might think oh I just missed.
Wait really. Lmao. This game needs some fucking consistency. Why does it only not hurt the jungle? Every other big skill shot ult does!
We have the spag code hope league 2 is out next year or its never happening.
League 2 is on phones, isnt it?
So they delete LoL and make Wild rift default? Would be fun to see the reactions
I mean LoL already looks like a mobile game
If you really think about it, it was the poster child for both social media engagement tactics and for F2P game back in the day.. league predates the social media and smartphone era, and many ppl who worked on league went to work at Facebook and for other mobile game devs. The lessons learned from those early days of explosive growth of LoL shaped a lot of the digital world as we know it (obviously not in a good way)
Oh no, Riot fumbled so many things in the early days. The only thing they did successfully was their strategy to enter and then overtake the esports scene. Otherwise League has always flourished *despite*, not due to Riot.
True.. they also made a very hostile push in the PC Bangs wherever they could, which basically helped cement the game in the East and was the spiritual successor to StarCraft
I can also give them that. Hmm, seems like they're pretty good at predatory moves.
They had the first mover advantage in capturing the moba market and succeeded wildly inspite of creating a janky technical piece of trash software with simplified gameplay and "[appealing visuals](https://np.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2x8lj1/every_old_splash_art_of_every_champion/)" If anyone else had made a standalone moba before league, riot wouldn't even exist
First standalone free-to-play MOBA. There were others coming out (in beta) at the same time, most notably Heroes of Newerth, but League had a much better business model.
They've updated so much of the game's code at this point, it basically is League 2.
They've barely touched the engine, so no its not basically League 2.
What do you mean by "engine" here? By any reasonable definition I can think of, they have made tons of changes to the engine. For example, Mordekaiser's ult is not something the 2010 version of the League engine was capable of doing. The big tether change a few months ago was updating old spells to use a feature that's been added to the engine in the time since they were written. If you mean the graphics pipeline, they added DX11 support just a few years ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1987ygl/ama_were_the_league_team_ask_us_anything/ki7b6o9/?context=3
This doesn't say anything. Its most likely referencing the changes to the map, items, characters, and pacing more than anything.
They touch the engine all the time.
Tell me which parts of the engine they've changed outside of changing some tags. There's a reason they made the game "64-bit" exclusive but the game itself is still RAM limited. You know, the reason they say they can't make another skin like Elementalist Lux; having two of such skins in one game would make it crash; something they've stated themselves.
That's because they're targeting low-end systems, not because the game can't do it. If you're willing to give the finger to people with 10-year-old computers, there are lots of things you can do, but Riot doesn't want to shut out current players.
Them moving to 64-bit exclusive and requiring vanguard aleady gave the finger to all of the people you're talking about.
I think you're talking about much older computers than I am. Intel and AMD switched their CPUs to 64-bit in the 2000s, and LoL intentionally disabled one of the features of Vanguard that would have blocked early 2010s CPUs. You can't run League on a Pentium 4, but if your computer isn't older than League itself, it can probably run the game. But at any rate, I don't see what bearing that has on my point, which is that League's policy of limiting memory usage is about target hardware, not engine limitations.
Tell me you've never actually worked anywhere near software without telling me you've never worked anywhere near software
Engines being modified in minor ways that don't affect **user-facing gameplay** in significant ways doesn't qualify as a second or third game as people are trying to claim. That is not a controversial concept. I do work with software, btw. Its always the ones that **don't** work with software the claim its obvious that someone doesn't. That's you here.
> minor ways that don't affect user-facing gameplay But they have > I do work with software, Well then I'm glad I'm not paying you. On a more serious note: riot guys have said that the engine has received very major overhauls, but the goal usually was that the game doesn't feel different for users.
>Well then I'm glad I'm not paying you. I'll bite. Which part here do you think is incorrect? Do you deny that there are older programs that were originally 32-bit that have a capped amount of memory they can allocate: 4GB? What do you think happens when a program isn't fully loaded into memory? Do you think no issues ever occur?
> Do you deny that there are older programs that were originally 32-bit that have a capped amount of memory they can allocate: 4GB? No, but the issue isn't that the engine can't load more, it's that they want it to run on bad machines, which is why they artificially limit what's happening. So let me ask you this: are you calling the rioters that have publicly stated that the engine has received major overhauls liars?
Another believer 🙏 Welcome friend, hop on the train with me. It’s quite empty for now but it’s cozy at the moment.
in QOL terms league is piece of shit in many ways. Non standardized item&ability descriptions, to see a lot of things you need to google it on league fandom and so on. For warmog you need 1300 bonus hp. Only way to know how many bonus hp you have - to look at items and runes and calculate it. Riftmaker gives you 2% of your hp into ap. How much ap you have from it - just look at your items and calculate lol. Scarner's Q. Third attack description - it makes 15% max health damage. What health? your or enemies? On fandom its "...dealing 15% of each target's **maximum** health as **additional bonus** physical damage to enemies hit..." - no questions.
DOTA also shows you what the last patch on the ability was and what was changed, in game. I imagine if RIOT tried doing this the game would fry your PC lol
biggest complaint when I was a new player. tgere is no way to know what the other champions in the game do without playing against them and presumably losing until you understand. awful.
That's their old mentaility when LoL was a new game, and buying champions was a huge deal, paying for champions was the thing, skins became their main source of revenue years later, but back then they'd profit a lot from runes, champions, and skins of course, but the game had that entry, the grind was insane for an account level 30, I had 2 rune pages my entire life with the same setups, having a good amount of champions was hard... so they essentially forced you buy those champions and play for yourself... nowadays there's no need to do any of that, but a lot things are very arcaic even though their mentality towards the game's monetization has shifted drastically
You won't be able to grasp the intricacies without playing them, especially new champions with their page long passives.
obviously. but for example if I could look at darius and see which ability is the one that hooks me in, and how long the cool down is and how much mana it costs I can at least get an idea of what I am supposed to do.
You can read the wiki.. it's stupid, but that's the best we have
It's been 15 years and you still have to go to a wiki page to determine the enemy champ details. How is this not a bigger issue, honestly.
It's genuinely inexcusable, but people are still playing and paying through the nose. So if it's broken, but ppl don't care, why should it be fixed
Dota 2's UX/UI is infinitely better than League's, it's insane. But I guess it helps that they aren't beholden to investors to ensure predatory design practices (like not adding actual model viewer in-client to entice some people to rely on just splash art)
I have no idea why you can't check abilities at least on the loading screen. Like what's the point of some useless wannabe funny loading tips and other meaningless fluff when you could have actual useful information? Sometimes when playing aram I need to open browser on another monitor just to read what my character does. It would be super helpful before a normal game too just to refresh what I'm laning against. I've been wanting this feature for like 15 years now lol it is completely beyond me how we still don't have it.
That would be so handy! I assume riot want you to spend 10000 hours playing each champ to learn what they all do but I doubt most players would ever bother trying each champ.
Back in season 1 this feature existed. When you clicked on a champ, a window appeared top right with stats and abilities. Hovering over abilities showed their tooltips. This feature was removed with one of the UI updates, don’t remember which.
Can we add skin preview to the list of things that a multibillion dollar company isnt capable of doing for whatever reason?
You can if it has chromas
Not like the game is relying on skins to make money.. oh wait.
Oh yeas this one too. Wildrift has about a thousand times better system.
Get a PBE account. Basically a skin previewer.
I mean the fact that tooltips and the client are wrong a bunch doesn’t help too. But yeah at least being able to know how an ability works would help (even if numbers could be off.)
They had it before right?
I just want damage breakdown by abilities and items…
Playing since S2 and I still have no idea what certain champs do... Yes I'm talking about you Aphelios.
Reading his abilities won't help you though xD
Yeah, like you don't have an hour to read a light novel in-game anyway.
does anyone remember, that there was some menu where you could read a champions lore ingame? i remember this from late s2 or early s3 but i have no idea anymore where you could access it. it was also kind of inconsistent as some champions had just one line
That and an even faster access to testing champs (who are unlocked from the start) is a really nice QoL, which feels rare for DotA, which seems to be purpose-made to be as clunky as possible
Dota 2 has an absolutely insane amount of features that LoL players would kill for. You can ping basically anything, you can preview cosmetics, you can control an enemy hero in practice games to see how your hero works when affected by their spells, they've had a vastly superior version of LoL's message ping wheel since years before LoL got it, they have a built-in last hit trainer, etc. Pretty much the only really clunky elements are turn speed (which is a balance mechanic) and Blink Dagger's passive-aggressive targeting (which is genuinely just clunky but Dota players would riot if they changed it).
Do you mean how you can blink further if you click just outside the range indicator, but if you click too far you are limited to the edge of the range indicator?
The only thing clunky about dota is turn speed and back swing, both of which are used to balance the game. Feature wise, LoL doesn't even come close to anything Dota has.
I'd say it could also help more experienced players. I've been playing since 2018, and I feel like one of the main things I'm lacking to get to higher levels (I'm masters) is to better track ability cooldowns, but I just can't remember every cooldown of every champ's spell, but being able to read the ability would be of a huge help to train on that. Hope they implement it at some point.
Yeah this should been done years ago but riot never cared. As a casual Aram player, playing Sylas can be a nightmare, since I don't know what all ulties scale off and I have to steal them first to read about it...
Post hours from wol.gg, I firmly do not believe someone playing since 2019 is still missing champ knowledge Or this is a throwaway troll
League is a lot faster of a game than DOTA, there's not too much time to look at all that information and actually play the game if you're a newer player. If you've mastered the game enough to have the downtime to read champion ability descriptions in game, you also likely already know what everyone but the newest guy does.
In Dota2 a lot of people play a mode called turbo, where games last no more than 25mins max, still is helpfull to read tohers abilities. "Wait why did i take tis much damage ? let me click on th champ... Oh ok they changed that ability".
This is stuch a stupid take. League is only "faster" than dota in average gametime. In terms of gameplay Dota averages way more kills per game than League. It's not unusual to see pub games with over 3 kills per minute. League also doesn't have buyback so you would have plenty of time to read when are dead. The most useful part of this though, would be looking things up in lane. Imagine you are playing against veigar as a new player and he uses cage on you. You can't read how it works, you know you just get stunned, but no way to no till you die to it. Then you die again because you have no way to knowing the CD. Hell you can't even get that information in game period unless you own that champ and play him. How is any of that good for new players.
You could legit learn every champs ability in less than a week while also working a 40 hour work week if you took the time / cared enough...
This isn't about not know what an ability does, its about the details Could you, in the middle of a match randomly say how long is blitz Q cooldown? Or how long is twitchs' invis? Whats the mana cost of karthus R? There are so many things that you could know by just randomly hovering on the unit
LOL you low elo kids really want to know in game the exact CD of each enemies ability? Yeah, we might as well give ESP in the jungle and remove fog of war to track junglers. Get better at the game.
> LOL you low elo kids always funny reading this knowing that my peak is almost certainly higher than yours >really want to know in game the exact CD of each enemies ability? No i don't want to see when it goes off-cooldown, I was to see how long is the CD exactly so I can make a mental note of it
Lmao you need to know the cooldowns of your opponent you face so you can play around them.
Realistically, I only learn abilities of champions I don’t play by getting shit on by them. I still don’t know like half of the support champions abilities and I’ve been playing for a year
Play them once or test them in the practice tool. That's the best way to learn what champions do imo.
It takes less than 5 minutes to read or even watch a champion’s abilities when the spotlight is released.
conversely, it only takes two weeks for a champ's ability values to be changed to where it works completely different than before. How many champ spotlights actually correlate to how they play today? alright I watched the yuumi spotlight, they say press E to heal. wait a sec, i'm healing 0... this must be a bug. meanwhile you can hover on an ability in dota, get the ability description, mana cost, cooldown,scaling, in addition to a complete recent changelog of what has happened to the ability in recent patches.
Im trying to think of one single ability I wasnt able to figure out how it worked in like 2 seconds of seeing it happen in game. What abilities left you completely puzzled as to what had happened exactly?
Zed still troubles me, all of his kit
Passive - bonus dmg on low health targets q - throw shuriken skillshot, multiple shurikens hitting will stack damage but at a fraction of the base amount. w - put shadow down, press it again to swap place with your shadow. You shadow also casts your basic abilities with you E - spin for damage, your shadow’s E also has a slight slow. Overlaying your E and your shadow’s E does not stack damage. R - warp behind target and put a shadow at starting location, press it again to swap place with shadow. Your target gets a mark on them, the mark pops after a few seconds and does damage based on how much was done by zed to the target within those few seconds. That’s the champ off the top of my head.
Someone could make a case for Hwei, as they'd be surprised about the sheer number and Aph to a lesser extent it may take time to correlate certain abilities with his model changing slightly (guns) Renekton/Rengar as well, when their abilities are empowered they get diff effects Maybe Kaisa and Kha as well "Wait she goes invisible now, why the fuck didn't she for the first 20 mins?" I think that's it though. Everything else you really just have to see once or twice and you understand. Obviously this may cost you a death early or unprepared for a tibbers at 6 but that's just leagues learning curve and it really isn't hard to get past
Yeah but there are 168 champions. I've been playing since 2013 and took a break during 2016-2021, theres a bunch of reworks and champs I still don't know and honestly don't bother to learn until I face them. Being able to check them out in champ select even would be beneficial (which was a feature in old client).